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Old 07-22-2002, 08:55 PM   #1
Sarin Elfarmour
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Sting Where do dwarves go when they die?

Where do dwarves go when they die? do they go to valinor? or leave the circles of the world like men
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Old 07-22-2002, 09:02 PM   #2
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They go to Mandos like everyone else. They don't leave the World, nor are they rebodied like the Elves. They remain in Mandos until the End when they will come out and help Aule remake the World.
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Old 07-22-2002, 09:21 PM   #3
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Any later ruler named Durin, however,

Quote:
was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world.
(I LOVE Appendix A!)

These "strange beliefs" are somewhat elaborated in the Silmarillion:

Quote:
Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages
(Sorry for the long quote, but it all seems so relevant!) So the Seven Fathers could be reincarnated (or at least, the Dwarves believed they could) but nobody else could.

Of course, it's hard to say who's right. Is there more information about this elsewhere?

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]
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Old 07-22-2002, 09:57 PM   #4
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Elsewhere the phraseology is that the later "incarnations" of Durin were so similar in form and appearance to the original that it was thought to be the genuine article (or at least was given the same name) but it was a descendant.

I personally rather doubt that the souls of departed Dwarves could be reincarnated. The case of Glorfindel is the only example that we (sort of) know about an incarnate dying and returning to Middle earth. Gandalf would be the other example, but he was not an incarnate so he does not qualify (and it was the special intervention of Eru).

The shroud of mystery that surrounds much of the information about the Dwarves was one that they wanted. Their secrecy was a trait of their race, so it's little wonder that there are different stories and conflicting interpretations especially about such mysterious things as life and death.

(At least that's how it fits in the story. The other reason is that Tolkien was not primarily concerned with the Dwarves and did not give them as much attention. Or at least that's how I, with my massive pro-Dwarven bias, view the situation. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
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Old 07-23-2002, 08:11 AM   #5
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or leave the circles of the world like men
Men don't leave the circles of the world. The Sil (I can't remember where) says Men go tro a seperatepart of the Halls of Mandos.
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Old 07-23-2002, 09:16 AM   #6
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...Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed: subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died. What may befall their spirits after death the Elves knew not. Some say that they too go to the Halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Ilvatar alone save Manw knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the outer sea.
Here we see that even if they did spend any time in Mandos, which my personal feelings tend against, they do, at some stage, leave the circles of the world.

Additionally...
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None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.
As for Dwarves. I tend towards Kuruharan's sceptical approach to potential reincarnation. The passage quoted above of Dwarves is indeed misleading...I believe it to be simply Tolkien working in a myth of a myth.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]
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Old 07-23-2002, 10:36 AM   #7
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Very sensible.

I (on my part) like Kuruharan's point about the uncertainty factor. Their belief in both reincarnation and thier right to go to the Halls of Mandos are shadowy and strange, and I think that the idea of various (and contradictory) myths is an important one... which is to say, I don't believe I have to decide what happens [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] .

What does everyone think about the Elves' contention that Dwarves have no afterlife at all? Isn't that equally up in the air?

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]
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Old 07-23-2002, 11:22 AM   #8
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Quote:
What does everyone think about the Elves' contention that Dwarves have no afterlife at all? Isn't that equally up in the air?
No, I don't think so. Dwarves obviously had a life of their own, and they could speak. Two good indications that they had souls.

The belief of the Elves in Middle earth is phrased in such a way as to make it sound like the Elves in Valinor knew differently.
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Old 07-23-2002, 02:41 PM   #9
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I think they die just as humans do, not sure though.
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Old 07-23-2002, 03:21 PM   #10
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THanks guys i just read in the silmarillion the quote that Belin put in. I think the dwarves thoght that the seven forefathers were speciak because they were made before the other dwarves, so they thought the forefathers could reincarnate even if they couldn't
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Old 07-23-2002, 08:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
The belief of the Elves in Middle earth is phrased in such a way as to make it sound like the Elves in Valinor knew differently.
Looking back at the quote, I see that this is a good point. It's interesting, however, that the narrative doesn't quite commit itself to the Dwarves' belief either ("they say"). Is the admittance to Mandos based on possessing a soul, then? Does everyone with a soul go to the Halls of Mandos? What about Ents (assuming an Ent were to die)?
It occurs to me that the idea of the Elves that Dwarves return to stone, assuming that it's theological rather than political, would have to be based on a different conception of the Halls, in which they would think them reserved for the Children of Iluvatar. Interesting. That also explains why the Elves in Valinor would think differently; they might know more about the Halls themselves (since they were closer).
Is this right?

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]
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Old 07-23-2002, 10:52 PM   #12
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The Valinoreans could just go ask Namo if they wanted.They wouldn't do that, though, unless they knew that dwarves existed in the first place, and none of them would have known when the Noldor returned to Middle-earth.
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Old 07-23-2002, 10:54 PM   #13
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Not that Namo would tell them or anything, but they could ask.
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Old 07-24-2002, 03:46 PM   #14
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i think the ents just got old and sort of turned into trees but im not sure, tolkein never said much about the ents
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