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Old 04-28-2021, 08:09 AM   #441
Huinesoron
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It occurs to me, now that Urwen is around again, that we've gone wrong by trying to tie Les Mis to the Fall of the Noldor when it's quite clearly the Fall of Gondolin.

And Valjean is Maeglin.

They caught me in the mines
They chained me to the wall.
I'm faceless in the dark
Another nameless thrall.

I should have been a prince
With Idril as my bride!
To take her as my own
What is not justified?

If I speak - I am condemned
If I stay silent - I am damned.

I am the master of thousands of miners
The House of the Mole.
Yet they abandon me here in the dark
A tormented soul

If I speak - they are condemned
If I stay silent - I am damned!

Who am I?
Am I content to live in slavery
To mortal Man who has the ears of kings?
The chains of pity he would wield
Are stronger than of iron or steel
Who am I?

Should I forsake myself for Idril's sake?
Protect the city as my own heart breaks?
And must my name as long before
Be Son of Darkness evermore
Here I lie...

Why not ally myself to greater power?
Why should I suffer here another hour?
To make the princess mine alone
My love will break unweathered stone

I pledge alliegance to the King!
I will yield all I know to Him!

Who am I?
I'm Maeglin
Of Gondolin!

And so, Morgoth, you see it's true
I am of priceless worth to you!
Gondolin -
I - will - let - you - in!


^_^

hS
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Old 04-28-2021, 08:45 AM   #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I've just listened to this and it's such fun. I can't tell whether you're planning an outro, but the slam-cut on the last line is just fantastic as-is (and would be a perfect straight-to-black). I'll try and record Thingol to go with it and get at least a first-pass of the animation done, but not sure when.
*happy noises*
I haven't done any work on this since WW started. But eventually - I also did not imagine an outro there, it would cut at the moment it stops now. I was tinkering with the idea of using the echo function on Audacity to make "done!" echo a couple times, but just voice without the music. I haven't experimented with it yet. Maybe it's better to cut the voice there too. Dunno. But I am very excited about this when I get back to it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
So I can't comment on the French except to note that I can make sense of most of it, but I can say that it's very singable. There's a couple of lines that catch me - I think a lot of them want me to pronounce a final -e as a separate syllable - but by and large it flows beautifully. Fingolfin's verse in particular is just perfectly biting (and I always appreciate a good maintenant).
Hmm. The only time I make use of the poetic French allowance for pronouncing silent end syllables is with "chaine". The rest I think is legit pronunciation. The stuff ending in -er has a pronounced final syllable. Except, because French pronunciation makes a lot of sense, the nouns ending on -er (eg fer) actually sound like -er, as opposed to the infinitive -er verbs (eg oser), which sound like -eh, making them only half-rhymes. Welcome to Whose French Is It Anyway, where the phonetics are made up and the spelling don't matter.

Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that "frere brulant" is more likely to mean "burning brother" than "flaming/fiery brother". Which is not untrue, just a bit early in the story. ^.^

Maybe I'll sing it, when I fix the mic! To test out the tech for Aria.

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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
It occurs to me, now that Urwen is around again, that we've gone wrong by trying to tie Les Mis to the Fall of the Noldor when it's quite clearly the Fall of Gondolin.


Not to mention the Downfall of Numenor!

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing the song of angry Men?
It is the music of the mortals
Who will NOT face death again!
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Old 04-28-2021, 09:35 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I also did not imagine an outro there, it would cut at the moment it stops now. I was tinkering with the idea of using the echo function on Audacity to make "done!" echo a couple times, but just voice without the music. I haven't experimented with it yet. Maybe it's better to cut the voice there too. Dunno.
I actually get irrationally annoyed at songs that have a solid final line, and then insist on echoing, repeating, or fading it. So I am absolutely fine with a complete hard stop there.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Hmm. The only time I make use of the poetic French allowance for pronouncing silent end syllables is with "chaine". The rest I think is legit pronunciation. The stuff ending in -er has a pronounced final syllable. Except, because French pronunciation makes a lot of sense, the nouns ending on -er (eg fer) actually sound like -er, as opposed to the infinitive -er verbs (eg oser), which sound like -eh, making them only half-rhymes. Welcome to Whose French Is It Anyway, where the phonetics are made up and the spelling don't matter.
Eh, I'm British, we don't pronounce the letter R if we can possibly help it anyway. Also I suspect this stuff changes between the various French dialects; I know Germany doesn't even have a consistent pronunciation of the pronoun Ich ("I"), so I'd be amazed if there wasn't a French-speaking region which does it completely differently.

(My money's on Quebec or Romandy.)

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Not to mention the Downfall of Numenor!

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing the song of angry Men?
It is the music of the mortals
Who will NOT face death again!


hS
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Old 04-28-2021, 05:27 PM   #444
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Eh, I'm British, we don't pronounce the letter R if we can possibly help it anyway.
Unless you're from Scotland, or Somerset, or north Lancashire, or......
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Old 04-29-2021, 12:30 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
Unless you're from Scotland, or Somerset, or north Lancashire, or......
They can't help it.

(But yes, entirely fair. In my defence, Zomerzet is at least thirty miles away, that's practically another planet!)

hS
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Old 04-29-2021, 07:28 AM   #446
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I sacrificed my lunch break today to put together a first cut of the Aria animation. The software was be inga li ttle cho ppy, so I haven't done the title card and credits, but the main part is there.

Melian's Aria

It flows directly from the end of Quarrel, of course, but I haven't put Cel'n'Cur in; their fade-out will be done in the joining of the songs together.

I wasn't sure which lines Thingol was scored for in the last verses, so I... uh, guessed. I've had him join the final "How blind have [you/I] become?", to sort of cap-off the realisation aspect of the song. I imagine a look of growing horror on his face during the whole sequence. ^_^

hS
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:30 PM   #447
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One thing I discovered during the WW game is that this thread got me into a rather funny habit of adding "=Hui" every time I start a quote.

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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I actually get irrationally annoyed at songs that have a solid final line, and then insist on echoing, repeating, or fading it. So I am absolutely fine with a complete hard stop there.
Listening and looking at the rough draft clip, I think I agree. A simple cut to black actually looks and sounds very nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Eh, I'm British, we don't pronounce the letter R if we can possibly help it anyway. Also I suspect this stuff changes between the various French dialects; I know Germany doesn't even have a consistent pronunciation of the pronoun Ich ("I"), so I'd be amazed if there wasn't a French-speaking region which does it completely differently.

(My money's on Quebec or Romandy.)
Hey, I live next door to Quebec. The finer points of French accents are lost on me, but I imagine Quebecois accents must sound much the same as American accents do to you Brits. They tend to add the American R sound to vowels whenever they can. What in Parisian French is "un deux trois", in Quebecois becomes "urn deurx troirs". I wonder if this was a common tendency in both languages when the colonies were settled.

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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
They can't help it.

(But yes, entirely fair. In my defence, Zomerzet is at least thirty miles away, that's practically another planet!)


(It amuses me way too much every time when people play up the saying that in North America 100 years is a long time, while in Europe 100 miles is a long distance. Seriously though, I still can't fathom how even in the modern age you can live on such a tiny territory and not intermingle to the point where the accents all blend together.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I sacrificed my lunch break today to put together a first cut of the Aria animation. The software was be inga li ttle cho ppy, so I haven't done the title card and credits, but the main part is there.

Melian's Aria

It flows directly from the end of Quarrel, of course, but I haven't put Cel'n'Cur in; their fade-out will be done in the joining of the songs together.

I wasn't sure which lines Thingol was scored for in the last verses, so I... uh, guessed. I've had him join the final "How blind have [you/I] become?", to sort of cap-off the realisation aspect of the song. I imagine a look of growing horror on his face during the whole sequence. ^_^
That is excellent! Thingol's lines are spot on, and it sounds really good! I still have not re-sung it. I did edit the score to the point where I think I'm happy with it, at least until I try to record and then not like it again. No changes to the length, so shouldn't affect the animations. I will get around to finally finishing this one day.

My most recent distraction was actually in the form of another Zongian musical... I recently finished watching the show Knightfall, about the last years of the Templar knights. I would not recommend it, I would describe it as the last season of Game of Thrones minus the dragons. But it sparked a thought that I could now rewatch Temple, the first musical set by the crew of V1 and the one that gives them their name. I watched it last summer, when I was scrounging Youtube for all things Zong-related, and I didn't really get it, it didn't catch. But this time, perhaps due to having a bit more of a fleshed-out background of these events from the show, or perhaps from not being as blindly infatuated with the Zong itself, I actually really liked it! In essence, it describes the events surrounding the death of the Templar Grand Master Jacques de Molay. It does require quite a bit of backstory, but makes sense once you know it (sort of like the Zong, I suppose: it would be difficult to follow without reading The Sil beforehand). Their early-2000s effects are a lot better, but I'm afraid the image and audio quality is the same. I really enjoyed their music and the lyrics, as well as the staging and some of the acting. It's fun to watch characters take on different roles, or the same roles with different contexts. For instance, Beren plays the evil councilor; I like him better as Beren, but this is an amusing change of personality. But Galadriel still plays mysterious female roles which provide a philosophical backdrop for the plot, and Sauron still plays the chief Bad Guy. To describe Finrod's character is to say he plays himself: a romantic who tries to live by his principles, who puts personal loyalty above self-preservation and political considerations, who seeks answers, who is confused and disappointed by reality, and after a critical moment he comes to a very Finrodian Truth, and the whole thing culminates in a very Galadriellian meta-Epilogue. There really are a lot of parallels, though it has a different feel than the Zong. They have more group/crowd scenes, which the Zong lacks, and have more metaphorical roles. That musical doesn't have English subtitles, but I figured that if there is interest, I could generate a prose-translation fairly quickly. For now, I only attempted a verse translation of one of my favourite songs: a squire, who barely joined the Order of the Templars before it fell, but who is full of romantic idealism, is "speaking" with the soul of the Master, imprisoned and sentenced to death the following day after refusing to give a false confession. My most favourite song is actually the one that follows right after - it's so incredibly melodic, but will also be difficult to translate because it's full of extensive metaphors that go over my head. If this is something I could drag you into, I could get prose subtitles up in a few days. ^.^


(PS: how is it that you make those google docs come up as website pages, not editable docs? It's not in the sharing options. Do you "publish to the web"?)
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Old 05-05-2021, 07:28 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Listening and looking at the rough draft clip, I think I agree. A simple cut to black actually looks and sounds very nice.
It does! It may be slightly weakened by the next song starting off with the same Doriath background; in fact I think I ended the Aria with Luthien's 'star' version, so it will be literally the same. I'm not sure I can do anything about that, though - we don't want to imply Luthien is literally hanging out with Beren, and the animation style doesn't allow her to be up-stage to show the separation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
(It amuses me way too much every time when people play up the saying that in North America 100 years is a long time, while in Europe 100 miles is a long distance. Seriously though, I still can't fathom how even in the modern age you can live on such a tiny territory and not intermingle to the point where the accents all blend together.)
Who's playing it up? I'm seventy miles from central London, but don't even consider it to be somewhere I could go.

I think it's mostly that everything is closer here. I have three significant urban centres within 25 miles (two of them historic), and a full-blown modern city at 30 miles. There's no need to travel further except on a vacation - and Britain in particular has such heavily patchworked terrain that you can go pretty quickly from large hills/mountains to forests to open country wherever you are.*

*Except maybe Scotland. I feel like their mountains are pretty chunky in parts. Wales, though, you can drive right through the mountains east to west in an hour.

Also, for historical reasons our cars are limited to 5mph, so it takes a really long time to get anywhere. Keeps the chaps with the red flags gainfully employed, though!

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
That is excellent! Thingol's lines are spot on, and it sounds really good! I still have not re-sung it. I did edit the score to the point where I think I'm happy with it, at least until I try to record and then not like it again. No changes to the length, so shouldn't affect the animations. I will get around to finally finishing this one day.
No worries, we'll get there when we do. Any idea what song you'll do next?

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
My most recent distraction was actually in the form of another Zongian musical...
Uh-oh.

So I've been avoiding the other Temple musicals, specifically so I don't wind up down a rabbit-hole... I'm happy to (try and) help out with a song or two, though. Badly interpreting Russian metaphors sounds like fun. ^_~

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
(PS: how is it that you make those google docs come up as website pages, not editable docs? It's not in the sharing options. Do you "publish to the web"?)
Yep, that's how. One of the most useful tricks I picked up, though I don't remember where. It breaks image-positioning sometimes, which is why my Russian FotR review wound up in a table.

hS
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:30 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
It does! It may be slightly weakened by the next song starting off with the same Doriath background; in fact I think I ended the Aria with Luthien's 'star' version, so it will be literally the same. I'm not sure I can do anything about that, though - we don't want to imply Luthien is literally hanging out with Beren, and the animation style doesn't allow her to be up-stage to show the separation.
Hmm. What if the background was blurred, or faded, to make it dream-state? Musically, I think it would help things to give Dream a 10-20 second intro, to allow some time between the songs, and allow for a very slow fading back to colour from the black.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Who's playing it up? I'm seventy miles from central London, but don't even consider it to be somewhere I could go.

I think it's mostly that everything is closer here. I have three significant urban centres within 25 miles (two of them historic), and a full-blown modern city at 30 miles. There's no need to travel further except on a vacation - and Britain in particular has such heavily patchworked terrain that you can go pretty quickly from large hills/mountains to forests to open country wherever you are.
That is absolutely true, but nevertheless I feel like it's still being played up, because it's so hard to imagine living in such a setting (even considering I did live there for a few months a few years back). To give some perspective, I travel some ~230 miles to see my family on holidays; it is far, in the sense that I would avoid going there and back on the same day, but it's close, because if I want to I could drive over after a workday and still arrive before bedtime. Thinking about the local megapolis of Toronto, which never had the benefit of a green belt/zone/whatever it's called which limits city sprawl, 50 miles from the centre of the city will just about get you to the edge of the Greater Toronto Area (ie still "Toronto" to everyone who lives in a different city). Everything is just spread apart so much and it's "normal" - but still, Ottawa doesn't have an accent that's so distinct from Windsor (~460 miles apart, opposite ends of the densely populated region of the same province). Newfoundlanders are known for their accents, but then look at the distances involved (also, they are walled off by the francophone Quebec). Certain places in the US have somewhat distinguishable accents. But for the most part you can't place a person on a map by the way they speak. Like, "you can tell a yorkshireman", but you just don't tell a "Vancouverman", or a "Winnipegman". How do people live so close and not have the accents rub off? How???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Any idea what song you'll do next?
Dunno. Any preferences? Could keep going with Dream, or could switch gears. Whatever you're feeling. But I probably won't start composing anything new until next week anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Uh-oh.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
So I've been avoiding the other Temple musicals, specifically so I don't wind up down a rabbit-hole... I'm happy to (try and) help out with a song or two, though. Badly interpreting Russian metaphors sounds like fun. ^_~
I'll send you the doc link once I populate it with some prose translation. I feel that I'm missing out on a whole bunch of religious and historical references, but I don't claim to have the same background knowledge as I did for the Zong. Either way, though, I don't intent to derail the Zong project. I feel that the Zong is now mostly musical production, and this is a bit of wordsmithing, so different not mutually exclusive beasts.
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Old 05-06-2021, 07:19 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Hmm. What if the background was blurred, or faded, to make it dream-state? Musically, I think it would help things to give Dream a 10-20 second intro, to allow some time between the songs, and allow for a very slow fading back to colour from the black.
Yeah, this works. Or... hmm. If I work up a "Camp" backdrop over which Luthien's stars can fit, I could have her 'dream Doriath' fade smoothly to Beren's Camp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
That is absolutely true, but nevertheless I feel like it's still being played up, because it's so hard to imagine living in such a setting (even considering I did live there for a few months a few years back). To give some perspective, I travel some ~230 miles to see my family on holidays; it is far, in the sense that I would avoid going there and back on the same day, but it's close, because if I want to I could drive over after a workday and still arrive before bedtime. Thinking about the local megapolis of Toronto, which never had the benefit of a green belt/zone/whatever it's called which limits city sprawl, 50 miles from the centre of the city will just about get you to the edge of the Greater Toronto Area (ie still "Toronto" to everyone who lives in a different city). Everything is just spread apart so much and it's "normal" - but still, Ottawa doesn't have an accent that's so distinct from Windsor (~460 miles apart, opposite ends of the densely populated region of the same province). Newfoundlanders are known for their accents, but then look at the distances involved (also, they are walled off by the francophone Quebec). Certain places in the US have somewhat distinguishable accents. But for the most part you can't place a person on a map by the way they speak. Like, "you can tell a yorkshireman", but you just don't tell a "Vancouverman", or a "Winnipegman". How do people live so close and not have the accents rub off? How???
230 miles is just about exactly the distance I go on my summer holidays. It's the width of the entire country. It amp't close.

On the specific accent point... where does accent stop and dialect begin?

Wheear 'ast tha bin sin' ah saw thee? / On Ilkla Mooar baht 'at

(Where have you been since I saw you? On Ilkley Moor without a hat)

Like, technically the only non-Standard usage there is 'baht' for 'without', plus the thee and thou, but would you guess that 'sin' was Standard 'since'? And even knowning 'baht' (apparently it's 'but', but I always parsed it as 'bar'), would you be able to translate spoken 'bah-tat' as meaning 'without hat'?

It's crazy, it really is. ^_^ It probably helps that the Received Pronunciation/Queen's English 'standard' accent is an upper-class creation, so not only do non-toffs have a desire to adopt it, they are/were kind of under pressure not to.

(Tolkien, of course, knew this - it's the basis for the three dialects of Quenya, the various forms of Sindarin, and the weird way those Hobbits speak that annoys Gondorians so much.)

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Dunno. Any preferences? Could keep going with Dream, or could switch gears. Whatever you're feeling. But I probably won't start composing anything new until next week anyway.
Up to you! It would be nice at some point to go back and fill the gap (Appeal & Amarie), to give us a run of nine, but really I'm happy to sing solos or duets with anyone, myself included.

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I'll send you the doc link once I populate it with some prose translation. I feel that I'm missing out on a whole bunch of religious and historical references...
-_- This is because I dropped that 'crown of thorns' reference onto Sauron, isn't it? ^_~ Religious and historical references is proooobably something I can help with, yeah.

hS
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Old 05-10-2021, 11:37 AM   #451
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Up to you! It would be nice at some point to go back and fill the gap (Appeal & Amarie), to give us a run of nine, but really I'm happy to sing solos or duets with anyone, myself included.
I have a sketch of both Dream and Beren in Nargothrond (I need a shorter nickname for this piece), both are possible to do. I am looking forward to more V1-inspired pieces - Feanorians and Melian were more V2-based, and I miss V1 a little.

Meanwhile, here is Aria music. Will sing it at some point. Had a couple goes at it, but didn't like the results, so will keep trying until something good comes out.

And this means that when Aria and Minions get their final form, we will be half way through the musical!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
-_- This is because I dropped that 'crown of thorns' reference onto Sauron, isn't it? ^_~ Religious and historical references is proooobably something I can help with, yeah.
:/

Serious answer: it's because before doing the Zong I really struggled with translating anything beyond basic vocab, but now I don't see language as a barrier to sharing my newest obsessions with anyone and everyone. ^.^ Besides, doing this gave an outlet for the obsession other than rewatching the video a dozen times over. Watch it if you're interested and don't if you aren't, this was really more for me to spill out the squeee.

Temle: a rock opera in one act (which stubbornly starts in the middle of the video, all the links I get from youtube take it to the middle, even when I ask for the link at current time at 00:01. Sorry.)

The text: includes helpful links, comments, and a couple attempts at verse translation. The prose translation is not updated with some last-minute changes I did while putting in the subtitles, but the gist is the same.

Why to watch:
- If you enjoyed V1, this is more of the same good acting and earnest talent.
- Cute evil!Beren and secretary!Luthien, and more excellent idealism from Finrod.

Why not to watch:
- Early 2000's homemade production. Video/audio quality is comparable to V1.
- Lots of references, the play requires context. Do not watch before you read either the preamble in the doc or "Synopsis and Background' by the authors (linked in the doc).
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Old 05-10-2021, 12:14 PM   #452
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I have a sketch of both Dream and Beren in Nargothrond (I need a shorter nickname for this piece), both are possible to do. I am looking forward to more V1-inspired pieces - Feanorians and Melian were more V2-based, and I miss V1 a little.
Sounds good! (I've got it in the Libretto as Appeal, by the way: we combined "Beren's Coming to Nargothrond" with what they call the "First Duet of Finrod and Beren", but "Beren's Appeal to Finrod" sums it all up nicely.)

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And this means that when Aria and Minions get their final form, we will be half way through the musical!
Woo-hoo! It's all downhill from here! Wait, no that's not right... all uphill? IDIOMS good grief.

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Serious answer: it's because before doing the Zong I really struggled with translating anything beyond basic vocab, but now I don't see language as a barrier to sharing my newest obsessions with anyone and everyone. ^.^ Besides, doing this gave an outlet for the obsession other than rewatching the video a dozen times over. Watch it if you're interested and don't if you aren't, this was really more for me to spill out the squeee.
Don't worry, I wasn't being serious. ^_~ I've skimmed the prose translation, and I am itching to throw some comments at the references. Can you throw me a link with commenting enabled? PM will work.

hS
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:21 PM   #453
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"230 miles is just about exactly the distance I go on my summer holidays. It's the width of the entire country. It amp't close."
It's been said that the difference between Britons and Americans is that Americans think 200 years is a long time, and Brits think 200 miles is a long way.
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Old 05-12-2021, 05:56 PM   #454
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It's been said that the difference between Britons and Americans is that Americans think 200 years is a long time, and Brits think 200 miles is a long way.
'T's what I said!

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Woo-hoo! It's all downhill from here! Wait, no that's not right... all uphill? IDIOMS good grief.
Let's not forget this is about Tolkien. It's all Underhill.
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Old 05-13-2021, 04:38 AM   #455
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I have now listened to the Aria and think it's wonderful. ^_^ And I've listened to versions of it enough that I can sing along, which is only a good thing.

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It's been said that the difference between Britons and Americans is that Americans think 200 years is a long time, and Brits think 200 miles is a long way.
Pfft, 200 years - we're still electing the same people to parliament as we did 200 years ago! (This is unfair to our politicians - many of them have only been in office a little over 150 years.)

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Let's not forget this is about Tolkien. It's all Underhill.
but you're not wrong.

hS
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Old 05-14-2021, 02:29 AM   #456
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Since I am never knowingly without a thought on symbolism: in Wind, Amarie has lines like "Listen: When I call your name the whole wood sings!" and "I call to thee / As the daylight fades beneath the trees." (Both fairly faithfully translated.) I wonder if this is a deliberate echo of the Lay of Leithian:

Again she fled, but swift he came.
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
He called her by her elvish name;
And there she halted listening.


That moment doesn't seem to happen in the Zong: it's implied by both Meeting and Dream that Luthien found Beren, not the other way round. But their relationship canonically began with Beren calling her name in the woods - and now Amarie is calling Finrod's name in the woods to try and renew their own bond. It feels deliberate.

It also makes me think of a scene Tolkien didn't write, but I would expect him to if he'd gotten that far: the full version of Beren's healing:

But this wound was fell and poisonous. Long Beren lay, and his spirit wandered upon the dark borders of death, knowing every an anguish that pursued him from dream to dream. Then suddenly, when her hope was almost spent, he woke again, and looked up, seeing leaves against the sky; and he heard beneath the leaves singing soft and slow beside him Lúthien Tinúviel. And it was spring again.

Is it too much to imagine that in Tolkien's plan, this final healing would have been a mirror to their first meeting: with Luthien calling Beren's name in the woods, to summon him back from the edge of death?

hS
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Old 05-14-2021, 01:45 PM   #457
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I have now listened to the Aria and think it's wonderful. ^_^ And I've listened to versions of it enough that I can sing along, which is only a good thing.
Meanwhile, I have sung it enough times to accept that I will never be happy with it and it will never quite live up to my expectations. I feel that I might redo it at some point in the future, but in the interest of having something rather than nothing, voila: Aria - sung. Of all the takes, the greatest variation is probably in the madness stanza - and after all the experiments with off-beat singing I ended up choosing the version with the plainest rhythm.

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Originally Posted by Hui
:Rolleyes: but you're not wrong.


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Since I am never knowingly without a thought on symbolism: in Wind, Amarie has lines like "Listen: When I call your name the whole wood sings!" and "I call to thee / As the daylight fades beneath the trees." (Both fairly faithfully translated.) I wonder if this is a deliberate echo of the Lay of Leithian:

Again she fled, but swift he came.
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
He called her by her elvish name;
And there she halted listening.


That moment doesn't seem to happen in the Zong: it's implied by both Meeting and Dream that Luthien found Beren, not the other way round. But their relationship canonically began with Beren calling her name in the woods - and now Amarie is calling Finrod's name in the woods to try and renew their own bond. It feels deliberate.
Oh, absolutely! I don't know if it's meant as a reference to Tinuviel! specifically, but it has a very similar feel.

Speaking of their meeting, I would say that Dream is ambiguous on that count, and could support both versions of who found whom first. "You burst into my dreams like a ray of spring" is leaning the canonical Beren-finds-Luthien way. Meeting, on the other hand, seems to be fanfic-inspired (remember the fic where Wilwarin comes from, which, with no real evidence to back the claim other than temporal correlation and a couple similarities, allegedly inspired the Zong?). Luthien's "who is this creature that just stumbled out of the thicket?" attitude is very fanficcy, and there... well, they take turns finding each other, I suppose. I said before that I am not gonna translate that beast... but I think I will anyway. One day.


PS: Thank you on the comments on Temple! I appreciate the insights!
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Old 05-15-2021, 03:48 PM   #458
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A quick note on a different tangent - I have finally gotten around to reading the Script of Leithian you linked before - and then I realized that I've only read Act 1, there are 3 more to go. It has been very entertaining and a great read, the witticisms and the philosophical passages alternating. I have half a mind to start integrating some of those Elvish expressions into my vocabulary, except no one will appreciate the wit. But a question did come up. Is Edrahil ever stated to be a person of some rank or importance? Both here and in the Wilwarin fic he is described as a person of significant social standing and with a personal relationship with Finrod. That somehow ruins him for me. The Sil describes him as "chief" among the 10 loyal followers - which to me means he was first and foremost in standing with Finrod at that moment, not that he was "chief of Nargothrond" in any other way. I always interpreted it as an instance of abstract loyalty and duty winning over selfishness and doubt. Having Edrahil's motives compounded by personal friendship and lofty position takes away from the deed, I think. When I read The Sil, he's a nobody from the crowd, who barely knows Finrod, but would still stand by his king. Making him the king's chief advisor or best friend or somesuch makes his act less of a sacrifice for what is right - there is less of the abstract and more of the personal. But I am not familiar with the Lay or any other texts on the matter. Is he ever said to be somehow close to Finrod, either by rank/position or friendship? Or can I continue to ignore this as a product of fanfiction?
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Old 05-16-2021, 11:15 AM   #459
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Triple posting to present the start of Appeal. I wanted to do something magical-sounding for the intro, because wonderous Nargothrond and all. I thought maybe to do some more twinklebelling, but preferred to leave that to be unique to Melian. And then it came to me: Nargothrond is the city of harps! So the intro will have a harp. Also, in recent songs I discovered that beyond the basic set of instruments the program lets me choose from when I start a new piece, there is a whole array of hidden stuff in the settings, including some frankly bizarre stuff (did you know "helicopter" is an option for music scores?). Long story short, there is some synthetic sound which is aptly titled "atmosphere", and which blends nicely with the harp. Toyed the idea with a breathier flute, but wasn't convinced, and besides the intro needs some instrument that would connect to Finrod (which the flute has kinda become alongside the trumpet). What I am not sure about is whether to keep the harp for the body of the song or to revert to the typical piano. I think piano sounds better for the body - and also, whatever instruments I put, they have to not jar too much with Amarie Ballad, and I think that one sounds better with piano... Or maybe it could be both. But point is, if I start making everything Finrody have a harp backdrop replace the piano, I feel that it would make the remainder of his songs feel out of place, and it becomes a domino effect and I'm not willing to go there. Some Finrod things can have harp, but not most. Ahh, the dilemma.

The other questions are simpler. I tagged a sketch of Arrival and Appeal proper onto the intro for demo purposes. 1) Is this in good range for you? Does it need shifting up/down before I start working on the main thing? 2) Tempo... oh gosh. So I hear the intro and the Arrival (up to "I must see Felagund your king") as slow. The lyrics could tolerate being fast here, but the intro does not, and keeping it on the slow side helps with the magic feel, I think. But the body of Appeal does not tolerate this slowness, especially on Finrod's part; it needs something brisker - I have a moderately fast version as a sample. Could probably be a bit slower, and even a bit faster, but not too much because then Beren's lines start tonguetwisting.

Appeal Intro: slow
Appeal Intro: fast


(Ain't you proud of me? I kept the intro to under 30 seconds! )

(And, sorry if in the previous ramble it wasn't clear, but I am leaning towards doing a two-part piece again, like for Aria and Renunciation, for both tempo and instrument reasons. The question is what exactly to change, and where - the options are at the start of the speaking lines - "Is this not the wonderous Nargothrond", and at the start of the body - "I beseech you etc")



And, in entirely unrelated news, I did start translating the Wilwarin fanfic. That's what happens when I have several days off in a row and very few responsibilities. It will not last very long though, which means that I've basically committed myself to another year-long-or-more project on a weekend whim. When I get through the first chapter, I will post a link.
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Old 05-17-2021, 04:19 AM   #460
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I will answer the rest, but while I've got the Leithian Script up:

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Is Edrahil ever stated to be a person of some rank or importance?
A lovely thing about Philosopher@Large is that she made the effort to explain a lot of her decisions, at least down to somewhere in the ever-longer Act IV. This is the afternotes file, and it points to the Lay of Leithian, which gives this version of Edrahil's plea:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lay: Canto VII
One stooped and lifted up his crown,
and said: 'Oh king, to leave this town
is now our fate, but not to lose
thy rightful lordship. Thou shalt choose
one to be steward in thy stead.'
Then Felagund upon the head
of Orodreth set it: 'Brother mine,
'till I return this crown is thine.'
Her argument is that people tend to be concerned with the things familiar to them, and so if you see someone going "Hey, know we're going into exile and certain death and all, but have you considered appointing a steward?", it's probably someone associated with the government. Then there's the fact that Orodreth's government is unable to prevent the imprisonment of a visiting allied princess, which implies that there wasn't just a change in who wore the crown, but also a gutting of the apparatus of leadership. To quote P@L again:

[The Ten] would not have been nonentities, random losers whose absence would make no difference to the life of the City, to be able alone of all the realm to disregard the danger, the Oath, and the overwhelming popular opinion against them — though not all, necessarily, of high political rank or standing (no more than a certain gardener in another Age)...

I think this is a good argument, and I've always been swayed by it: the people with the strength to follow Finrod would be the people most loyal to him, personally, and therefore are people he would have trusted in the city or the army. Given that Edrahil is not only comfortable handling the crown and correcting his just-now-exiled king in public, but also immediately goes 'hey what about the government?', steward or other high-ranking official would be a good fit for him. Herald is another possibility, a la Elrond to Gil-Galad - and indeed, she gives him that role too. ^_^

But is it text? No. A reading where these are ten simple warriors, and Edrahil Enedrion their sergeant, is just as well-fitted to the text.

hS
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Old 05-17-2021, 06:55 AM   #461
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I think this is a good argument, and I've always been swayed by it: the people with the strength to follow Finrod would be the people most loyal to him, personally, and therefore are people he would have trusted in the city or the army. Given that Edrahil is not only comfortable handling the crown and correcting his just-now-exiled king in public, but also immediately goes 'hey what about the government?', steward or other high-ranking official would be a good fit for him. Herald is another possibility, a la Elrond to Gil-Galad - and indeed, she gives him that role too. ^_^
That is actually a very good argument, and I might be convinced over. At least I don't mind it nearly as much anymore. Both the boldness in giving advise to the king and the power vacuum are good points. Thank you very much for that perspective.

So far, the line I am absolutely going to use is "I am not a child of 90". It's funny when Luthien says it, but it's even funnier when a mortal says it.




ETA: Just read up to this point, and thought this was a beautiful passage that could not but be quoted for posterity and future reference:

Quote:
And we who are left muddle along half-blindly, trying to recover from the ruinous darkness we have brought upon ourselves, but unwilling to dare the necessary fire... ~Orodreth
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Old 05-18-2021, 02:25 AM   #462
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I promise at some point I will get this animated! Tomorrow, maybe?

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Luthien's "who is this creature that just stumbled out of the thicket?" attitude is very fanficcy, and there... well, they take turns finding each other, I suppose.
I'm fairly forgiving of this, particularly in the musical, because although Beren does all the literal finding in the book, Luthien metaphorically finds and heals him.

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PS: Thank you on the comments on Temple! I appreciate the insights!
I'll try to do more at some point! Just got a lot of plates spinning at the moment.

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Oh that's really lovely! I agree that a tempo shift would work best; I'd be inclined to keep it slow through Arrival, and then speed it up for the Appeal proper. (I noticed that the sample only had one stanza of Beren before Finrod comes in on the Appeal - have we accidentally got two translations of the same verse in the Libretto, or were you just sketching?)

Quite agree about not trying to give Finrod a theme-harp. I thought the harp sounded too sped-up at the start of the faster intro, so yeah, it works best as an atmospheric instrument.

This does make me want to make the Nargothrond backdrop prettier though! If I've got time for a slow fade-in, using it to reveal geometric-looking arches seems a bit of a waste. But I'm not sure what... one to think about in the final, full version, I guess.

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And, in entirely unrelated news, I did start translating the Wilwarin fanfic. That's what happens when I have several days off in a row and very few responsibilities. It will not last very long though, which means that I've basically committed myself to another year-long-or-more project on a weekend whim. When I get through the first chapter, I will post a link.
I certainly wouldn't know anything about that... ^_~

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That is actually a very good argument, and I might be convinced over. At least I don't mind it nearly as much anymore. Both the boldness in giving advise to the king and the power vacuum are good points. Thank you very much for that perspective.
I think it partly hinges on how you view Orodreth. If he's an inherently weak person, then the Ten can be nobodies, because even an intact government of Nargothrond can't do anything if their Regent says "just give my cousins what they want, they're scary". Given that the two things he does are 1) give in to Cel'n'Cur, and 2) give in to Turin, that's a viable read. But... well, to quote the Script's Notes again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by P@L
Very simply, Orodreth has to be the same person who on the one hand didn't argue strongly on his brother's behalf and who lost an undamaged command to the Enemy…yet who for centuries held a castle which was not simply a remote garrison but the capital of a province which controlled the only north-south corridor in Western Beleriand, through which all friendly traffic for much of the First Age was compelled to travel [...], who enjoyed a friendly relationship with the traitors prior to the coup, — and who, when presented a second time with the alternative of passive non-resistance to the status quo and cathartic violence, held against both strong influences...
You can see him as weak, but the complex version is much more interesting. P@L shows this in some of his scenes in Act III, and his appearance in the Enteract is just spot-on perfect for it.

A couple of notes in warning:

1) If you've not been reading Gower's narration, make sure you do for his closing speech in the Enteract; the ending is one of the most understated best bits of the Script.

2) Act IV is like... nothing else in Arda. I think she originally intended it to be a fairly short closure, but... it's split into six parts, and Word is telling me the first two are both 80K words. It's utterly incredible (in my opinion at least), but it's also very, very long.

And frustratingly not quite finished, though you can just about imagine that the ending would be another Gower speech. Basically all the plot threads get tied up, with just one left to the imagination.

hS

Edit: Now I'm reading Act IV (again again), and I think I just found our theme song:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leithian Script
Beren: Of course. If you're sure. -- You know what happens to my projects.

Finrod: -- Expansion of scope far beyond any reasonable assessment, followed by utter chaos, culminating in divine intervention? -- I'm counting on it.
^_^
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Old 05-18-2021, 09:44 AM   #463
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I'll try to do more at some point! Just got a lot of plates spinning at the moment.
I totally feel that. And these last few days, I don't even have that many real-life plates spinning. And yet I find myself quite occupied and torn between the Zong, the Script, the Fic, and other self-inflicted responsibilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(I noticed that the sample only had one stanza of Beren before Finrod comes in on the Appeal - have we accidentally got two translations of the same verse in the Libretto, or were you just sketching?)
Just sketching. I only sketch more/all stanzas if they are different or there is a key change (eg in Wind the second stanza in a set is a minor third higher than the first, and Aria is all about key changes, presumably just for the heck of it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
This does make me want to make the Nargothrond backdrop prettier though! If I've got time for a slow fade-in, using it to reveal geometric-looking arches seems a bit of a waste. But I'm not sure what... one to think about in the final, full version, I guess.
I am not entirely sure what to say to this, but the arches are quite elegant and have a large open room, perhaps throne room, air. Whatever you do with that I think will be fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I certainly wouldn't know anything about that... ^_~
I have too many ongoing side projects. Why again do I do this to myself?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I think it partly hinges on how you view Orodreth. If he's an inherently weak person, then the Ten can be nobodies, because even an intact government of Nargothrond can't do anything if their Regent says "just give my cousins what they want, they're scary". Given that the two things he does are 1) give in to Cel'n'Cur, and 2) give in to Turin, that's a viable read.
I don't think he's inherently weak. If he really was weak to that degree, I don't think Finrod would have entrusted him with Minas Tirith after the Bragollach, even to spare his brother's feelings - it was too crucial an assignment. And he would not have given Orodreth regency if he thought it would amount to nothing. I think that if he truly took Edrahil's advice, and acted in the interest of the best future for Nargothrond, he would not give the crown to a failure, brother or no. I think Orodreth is not weak - he is just Not Finrod; he's dealing with a kettle of fish not of his own choosing and swimming quite out of his depth, because he has very large shoes to fill. Maybe he even doesn't know what he's doing - or maybe it just seems so to people because anyone would pale relative to the now idealized Finrod, a tough act to follow. But he is not weak, just Not Finrod. As for giving in to Turin, I wonder if that was not tied in to the current story. A second Man comes along and tells them they should go to war; they remember what happened the first time with Beren, and decide that this time they will not prove such cowards... That is the tragedy of Turin's story, that much (not all, but much) of what he does is really motivated by good intentions and good, albeit subjective and therefore limited, reasoning and strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
1) If you've not been reading Gower's narration, make sure you do for his closing speech in the Enteract; the ending is one of the most understated best bits of the Script.
I have - to the misfortune of the Password thread. :-D I only read up to the end of Act III yesterday, and it took me most of the day. I am slightly dreading Act 4, though I am equally excited for it. I am somewhat baffled that I got so deeply involved in Beren/Luthien material. That was never my favourite story in The Sil. How this came to be, I am not sure, but I'm in too deep to back out at this point. :/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Edit: Now I'm reading Act IV (again again), and I think I just found our theme song:
Does the chorus go - "So Valar help us!" ?


On the Wilwarin fic - which I will start calling the Dawn fic, by its proper name, since it seems this is gonna be around for a while - I have the Prologue done, and since it pretty much reads as a separate and unrelated piece of fiction, I suppose that's one that can be published once proofread. And I am on page 7 of 54 of Chapter 1... of 23 chapters. So Valar help me!
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Old 05-18-2021, 02:52 PM   #464
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Actual replies as and when, but: Aria is done! So very glad I did the rough version earlier, made it a lot quicker to finish up.

hS
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Old 05-21-2021, 08:55 PM   #465
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Business first -

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Actual replies as and when, but: Aria is done! So very glad I did the rough version earlier, made it a lot quicker to finish up.
The graphics are great! But I really would want to resing this. I love the duet parts though!

I am on the Elf Choir part of Beren's entrance. I'll post it when I get through the entrance section. I think the harp was a great idea.


And not really business, aka the real reason for the post -

So, I have just finished Part 1 of Act 4. I am conflicted. I feel that I've enjoyed the first 3.5 acts a lot more than this one. Mostly it's that it seems... too much. People shouldn't fall into Camp Finrod or Camp Douchebag. Also, it goes against everything I wouod have expected of Mandos. No wonder no one got reincarnated, they don't give each other a two minute break for self-reflection. And the Let's Replay The Bragollach came across as something slightly deranged; you have all these recently dead people who have just suffered violent traumatic deaths going - let's do it again? I mean, kudos to Finrod, it's utterly mad genius, but also what the hell is that suppised to be, it's mad. Maybe the thing that bothers me most is that apparently the Vanyar are helping out in Mandos? It took me most of the Act to realize the Apprentice was a Elf, I thought all the assistants were Maiar. It seems very wrong for someone to be in charge of dead people's spirits of his own kind. Like, something happens, and he's one of them. Besides, isn't death supposed to be sort of a mystery, even for Elves? You can't just have other Elves managing Death, that's not right.

But it's interesting that this Amarie is very much the "you will hang your head and answer me at last" Amarie. I think the perspective shown in this play actually reconciles me slightly to that line and to the general flip-floppy tantrumy Amarie - though I still like our version better. ^.^ I am quite curious about how Beren will fix that one for Finrod.

I also find it interesting how both fanfics pick up on some of the same details and questions (eg. Where were the palantirs in the First Age?), but then some insights are unique (e.g. from the Script - never occurred to me that Nom and Ingold mean practically the same thing!). And in both I like the not-strictly canonical Beren and Finrod, but sometimes must just bear along with the Luthiens. I guess that's inevitable when you add living detail to a legendary demigoddess.


Edit: wait, so the Apprentice is a Maia after all? Well, firstly, thank goodness, because having an Elf in Mandos Management felt very wrong. But secondly, I have a creeping suspicion that I am about to meet Olorin, and somehow I don't want this guy to be Olorin.
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Old 05-24-2021, 02:41 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I am not entirely sure what to say to this, but the arches are quite elegant and have a large open room, perhaps throne room, air. Whatever you do with that I think will be fine.
On glancing back at it, yeah, I had more detail in Nargothrond than I remembered, so that's good. (I do think I've made Finrod's prologue-throne grey, though, despite the repeated lyrical invocations of "golden throne".)

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I don't think he's inherently weak. If he really was weak to that degree, I don't think Finrod would have entrusted him with Minas Tirith after the Bragollach, even to spare his brother's feelings - it was too crucial an assignment. And he would not have given Orodreth regency if he thought it would amount to nothing. I think that if he truly took Edrahil's advice, and acted in the interest of the best future for Nargothrond, he would not give the crown to a failure, brother or no. I think Orodreth is not weak - he is just Not Finrod; he's dealing with a kettle of fish not of his own choosing and swimming quite out of his depth, because he has very large shoes to fill. Maybe he even doesn't know what he's doing - or maybe it just seems so to people because anyone would pale relative to the now idealized Finrod, a tough act to follow. But he is not weak, just Not Finrod.
Exactly. And while I'm happy to accept that he couldn't get the recalcitrant Nargothronders to actually do anything about their king being captive - they'd already made that choice - I agree with P@L that Orodreth's failure to prevent a visiting princess being held prisoner by his guests speaks of larger governmental collapse - and therefore, at least some of the key players went with the King.

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As for giving in to Turin, I wonder if that was not tied in to the current story. A second Man comes along and tells them they should go to war; they remember what happened the first time with Beren, and decide that this time they will not prove such cowards... That is the tragedy of Turin's story, that much (not all, but much) of what he does is really motivated by good intentions and good, albeit subjective and therefore limited, reasoning and strategy.
That... hadn't really occurred to me. Huh. You make a good point! (The difference being of course that Beren had a specific goal in mind; Turin, as far as I recall, just didn't like not fighting.)


On the Wilwarin fic - which I will start calling the Dawn fic, by its proper name, since it seems this is gonna be around for a while - I have the Prologue done, and since it pretty much reads as a separate and unrelated piece of fiction, I suppose that's one that can be published once proofread. And I am on page 7 of 54 of Chapter 1... of 23 chapters. So Valar help me![/QUOTE]

o.O What in Space-Arda was that? That's... quite a prologue.

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The graphics are great! But I really would want to resing this. I love the duet parts though!
I keep listening to my own sung parts of various songs and grimacing. I suspect a full re-sing is in the future, though Not Right Now (TM).

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So, I have just finished Part 1 of Act 4. I am conflicted. I feel that I've enjoyed the first 3.5 acts a lot more than this one. Mostly it's that it seems... too much.
Ah, the Act IV feeling. ^_^ Act IV is far and away the most fanficcy part of the Script. The rest is expanding the Lay, but this is pure indulgence. But it's fun indulgence.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
People shouldn't fall into Camp Finrod or Camp Douchebag.
This becomes less of a thing as time goes on. We're getting a specific viewpoint on events, and it's worth remembering that the Ten have been really obnoxious in context - they've been starting fights with the Powers, people really aren't going to engage neutrally with them unless they're very neutral people in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Also, it goes against everything I wouod have expected of Mandos. No wonder no one got reincarnated, they don't give each other a two minute break for self-reflection. And the Let's Replay The Bragollach came across as something slightly deranged; you have all these recently dead people who have just suffered violent traumatic deaths going - let's do it again? I mean, kudos to Finrod, it's utterly mad genius, but also what the hell is that suppised to be, it's mad.
For the past few months I've been wanting to do a survey of Tolkien's actual statements on Mandos. We know from Miriel that people aren't changed by going there, which means Finrod wouldn't sit quietly for a minute, any more than House Feanor would stop being obnoxious. What I've never been sure of is whether the kind of unrestrained interaction P@L uses is canon-based, or ripped from Valhalla. If the dead can interact, then the idea that they'd still bicker is very plausible, as is the notion that Finrod with nothing to actually lose now would say "why not do it for real?".

... but it's also mad.

(So would Finrod be able to reshape the Halls like he does? The Script implies that most of it is illusion, which should work - 'magic' is a feature of the spirit, and elven spirits are intact even when outside their bodies - but there's all those references to moving the walls around. I think there's a discussion much later about that point, which suggests that the Halls may actually be entirely illusion - or may not be.)

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Besides, isn't death supposed to be sort of a mystery, even for Elves?
Not since Miriel. There's a quote somewhere which says that they don't by nature know what happens, but the Valar have been very clear. And since Miriel was both sending and receiving messages, there's no way people didn't know what sort of place she was in.

The physical presence of various Eldar in the Halls is a narrative device of the Script, though. In "reality" they would probably have sent messengers; there's only a couple of scenes that wouldn't make sense that way. But the Apprentice popping in every five minutes to read out another letter from Amarie and take back Finrod's snarky response would rather ruin the flow of the story.

Essentially this is the same as Luthien hanging out with Finduilas and Celebrimbor - there's no text saying they met, but it's more interesting than her monologuing to herself for most of the act.

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But it's interesting that this Amarie is very much the "you will hang your head and answer me at last" Amarie. I think the perspective shown in this play actually reconciles me slightly to that line and to the general flip-floppy tantrumy Amarie - though I still like our version better. ^.^ I am quite curious about how Beren will fix that one for Finrod.
Both Amaries are great. ^_^ But I think Heart and Wind together wouldn't work for Zongmarie - she's forgiven Finrod, whereas Scripmarie most definitely hasn't. Their parting in the Script-verse seems to have been rather angrier, which explains some of the difference.

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I also find it interesting how both fanfics pick up on some of the same details and questions (eg. Where were the palantirs in the First Age?), but then some insights are unique (e.g. from the Script - never occurred to me that Nom and Ingold mean practically the same thing!). And in both I like the not-strictly canonical Beren and Finrod, but sometimes must just bear along with the Luthiens. I guess that's inevitable when you add living detail to a legendary demigoddess.
P@L and her beta-readers really did a lot of research. There are a lot of Silm details that get drawn out in the Script, which is why the parts that aren't Tolkienian still seem so plausible (well, some of them!).

Luthien suffers a fair bit from having to play the Only Sane Character: she did in Act III, and she does here too (who else would qualify? Beren? Finrod?!). So for instance, Beren gets to give very in-character descriptions of the events of their story, but Luthien - much later - has to give a reasonably objective account.

But also... she seems a bit childish sometimes, doesn't she? I noticed that this time through. And that jars a bit, but also... well, she is, in that she's been heavily protected by her parents until the past two years. She's not a spoilt princess, but she is still a princess, and one who could drag the foremost minstrel in the world out into random areas of forest on a whim. She's used to getting her way - she has the skill and power to ensure she does when people stand against her - and now she's stuck somewhere she can't do that. Her only weapon left is persuasion, and that isn't one of Canon Luthien's notable traits. (She does it three times, I think: once to get Daeron to go looking for Beren, once to invoke Daeron's aid in escaping, and once to Morgoth to let her sing. Other than that, she loses every verbal argument she's in, unless some-Huan else backs her up.)

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Edit: wait, so the Apprentice is a Maia after all? Well, firstly, thank goodness, because having an Elf in Mandos Management felt very wrong. But secondly, I have a creeping suspicion that I am about to meet Olorin, and somehow I don't want this guy to be Olorin.
Surprise!

I don't think the text explicitly confirms it, but yeah, he's Olorin, as played by Ewan McGregor (AKA young Obi-Wan Kenobi, with, yes, Aule's Assistant Curumo played by Alec Guinness/old Obi-Wan in his younger days). And yes, he's played pretty irreverantly - though no more than the greater Powers! - but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silm: Of the Maiar
Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.

Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
He learned pity and patience - meaning that in earlier times he lacked a certain empathy and was impatient. You could play that as Saruman-like obnoxiousness, but there's too much of that about - youthful impetuousness is a different twist. (And yes, it's another narrative device to have so much of that learning take place right now... ^_~) But "loved the Elves," "walked... in form as one of them," "was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar"... all these traits are there in Scriptlorin, but haven't yet reached their final form.

And he's fun. It's partly the casting - I can hear Ewan McGregor very clearly in all his lines. (I don't think she ever wrote a full cast list for Act IV, and most of them are played by classic movie stars anyway.)

EDIT: Remembered the thought I had the other day... it is a bit Much that Gandalf's prowess with the sword gets an origin story too. Again, it makes sense, in that use of weapons isn't an innate skill of the Powers (hence Tulkas never does), and the idea that he didn't just magically learn it but had to face the same painful training as everyone else is kind of realistic... but once I noticed it, it did stand out quite a bit.

EDIT2: I took a quick run at the Mandos research, and have compiled the quotes here. In summary:

- The dead are usually described by Tolkien as 'sitting'.
- Their purpose in waiting there is contemplation and peace, but also to purge their guilt, repent of their misdeeds, and overcome any malice they have towards others.
- They are conscious, able to receive messages from outside and to respond to them (Miriel).
- They can speak to one another (Miriel and Finwe) and can obtain audience with Namo (Luthien).
- One very early text describes them as 'dreaming of their past deeds'.

The combination of 'can talk to each other' and 'past deeds' is essentially what P@L drew on, coupled with the fact from the Glorfindel quote that yes, they still held grudges. She took it to extremes, but the only thing not based in some canon text (that I can find!) is the living visiting the Halls.

(And yes, the council chamber where they discuss interior decor is taken directly from the Lost Tales description of Ve!)

hS
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Old 05-24-2021, 03:28 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
On glancing back at it, yeah, I had more detail in Nargothrond than I remembered, so that's good. (I do think I've made Finrod's prologue-throne grey, though, despite the repeated lyrical invocations of "golden throne".)
And here it is! Well, mostly. Listening now, I think I would change a couple details, but that's details.

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Originally Posted by Hui
That... hadn't really occurred to me. Huh. You make a good point! (The difference being of course that Beren had a specific goal in mind; Turin, as far as I recall, just didn't like not fighting.)
Well, if Beren's goal is "get a Silmaril", while Turin's is "do what is in your power to fight Morgoth", yes, they have different goals - and Turin's comes across as the more noble one. But I digress.

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Originally Posted by Hui
o.O What in Space-Arda was that? That's... quite a prologue.
Ha, I know! Has nothing to do with the story. But wouldn't that be a cool realm of fanfiction - Tolkien Sci-Fi? Eighth Age Arda is quite the place for imagination to run wild in all different directions. The prologue makes for a pretty cool psychological thriller, and as far as Tolkien geekiness is concerned, I was totally sold at "Cuthalion-330". :-D

I am still in the vicinity of 1/4 through the first actual chapter in terms of the translation - and that chapter is roughly equivalent to Meeting. It's a long book with a lot of extra details. I am actually itching to get it out to compare the Script with the Dawn, there are so many parallels, but I realize that I would have to wait another couple years to get there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(So would Finrod be able to reshape the Halls like he does? The Script implies that most of it is illusion, which should work - 'magic' is a feature of the spirit, and elven spirits are intact even when outside their bodies - but there's all those references to moving the walls around. I think there's a discussion much later about that point, which suggests that the Halls may actually be entirely illusion - or may not be.)
I think both are within the realm of possibility. Finrod is a master of whatever "magic" rules illusions - he's the one who almost beat a Maia with a Song of Power. And at one point in the Script I think they implied he moved real walls by "persuading" the stone to be such (the language was similar to how in Nargothrond they "convinced" the armour to darken). Which, all in all, I don't think is the most unbelievable thing in this story. Finrod is very much of a mind-over-matter person, in more ways than one, and if anyone can figure out how to move walls with his thought it would be him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Luthien suffers a fair bit from having to play the Only Sane Character: she did in Act III, and she does here too (who else would qualify? Beren? Finrod?!). So for instance, Beren gets to give very in-character descriptions of the events of their story, but Luthien - much later - has to give a reasonably objective account.

But also... she seems a bit childish sometimes, doesn't she? I noticed that this time through. And that jars a bit, but also... well, she is, in that she's been heavily protected by her parents until the past two years. She's not a spoilt princess, but she is still a princess, and one who could drag the foremost minstrel in the world out into random areas of forest on a whim. She's used to getting her way - she has the skill and power to ensure she does when people stand against her - and now she's stuck somewhere she can't do that. Her only weapon left is persuasion, and that isn't one of Canon Luthien's notable traits. (She does it three times, I think: once to get Daeron to go looking for Beren, once to invoke Daeron's aid in escaping, and once to Morgoth to let her sing. Other than that, she loses every verbal argument she's in, unless some-Huan else backs her up.)
She's absolutely a petulant child, and has been the entire play. I found that jarring, but dismissed it in the style of the thing - I mean, Beren can have his Snark and Finrod can have his, what - Spunk? - but obviously the rest have been sillified beyond what's expected. I mean, even in the canonical acts, many of the scenes were made more comedic or silly at the expense of some characters, but it's hard not to admit that the Valar are Comedy Valar. I've accepted Olorin in this taste too (and yes, his name is confirmed at the very end of Part 2), as all the details are technically right and it's the comic relief feature that bothers me. I guess your more in-story explanation also makes sense though, she being a somewhat spoilt princess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
EDIT: Remembered the thought I had the other day... it is a bit Much that Gandalf's prowess with the sword gets an origin story too. Again, it makes sense, in that use of weapons isn't an innate skill of the Powers (hence Tulkas never does), and the idea that he didn't just magically learn it but had to face the same painful training as everyone else is kind of realistic... but once I noticed it, it did stand out quite a bit.
Actually, that one stood out as more normal to me. I never really thought about it, but I sort of expected Gandalf to have learned warfare and fighting from Eruhini at some point, dunno if before or after his arrival to ME. Though I didn't think he'd be learning from dead Eruhini.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I took a quick run at the Mandos research, and have compiled the quotes here. In summary:
^.^ You know, it's things like this that make me think we would belong right in there, together with the incurable mad enthusiasts.


So far, I think Nerdanel is my favourite non-canonical addition. I like the way she balances her love with her disagreement, how she can be both concerned and ashamed of her sons but doesn't deny either side of the duality. And her reaction to Luthien (along the lines of "He gave up a Silmaril for you? He's a keeper!") was pure gold. Finarfin was questionable initially, but I think he's grown on me. Amarie got more interesting, then less interesting again, but I expect there will be more development to come.


PS: I think the Only Sane Character Award goes to Orodreth. ^.^
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Old 05-26-2021, 03:25 AM   #468
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And here it is! Well, mostly. Listening now, I think I would change a couple details, but that's details.
This is lovely. And the intro length is right for me to fade in Nargothrond in two stages (arches, then backdrop), which means I don't have to figure out anything else to add.

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Well, if Beren's goal is "get a Silmaril", while Turin's is "do what is in your power to fight Morgoth", yes, they have different goals - and Turin's comes across as the more noble one. But I digress.
That's not a goal. Beren's is specific: get into Angband, get one or more Silmarilli, get out and return to Doriath. You can plan that; it has an endgame. Even if you'd accurately stated Turin's intent, it would be open-ended, and thus - like the Leaguer - doomed to ultimate failure. It contains neither a 'defeat Morgoth' goal, nor an endpoint where you can return to stability.

... but it's also not what he wanted. The Children of Hurin describes it like this:

"Now Turin had no liking for the manner of fighting of the Elves of Nargothrond, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he urged that it be abandoned, and that they should use their strength to attack the servants of the Enemy, to open battle and pursuit."

Nargothrond was already fighting - Turin just didn't like how. The debate with Gwindor goes on for a couple of pages, in which Gwindor advances a plan - "Only in secrecy lies hope of survival, until the Valar come" - while Turin says that secrecy doesn't work, that "victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only from what follows from it", and that "though Morgoth slay the doer he cannot make [a great deed] not to have been. Even the Lords of the West will honour it..."

Turin disagrees with Nargothrond's current plan, but the alternative he offers is "fight lots and die gloriously". At no point in the debate does he suggest his plan will produce any outcome other than the destruction of Nargothrond - just that it will be a praiseworthy fight.

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I think both are within the realm of possibility. Finrod is a master of whatever "magic" rules illusions - he's the one who almost beat a Maia with a Song of Power. And at one point in the Script I think they implied he moved real walls by "persuading" the stone to be such (the language was similar to how in Nargothrond they "convinced" the armour to darken). Which, all in all, I don't think is the most unbelievable thing in this story. Finrod is very much of a mind-over-matter person, in more ways than one, and if anyone can figure out how to move walls with his thought it would be him.
I think that's based on Luthien singing down Tol-in-Gaurhoth; it establishes that magic can move walls (into rubble), and why wouldn't you use that for construction as well...?

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She's absolutely a petulant child, and has been the entire play. I found that jarring, but dismissed it in the style of the thing - I mean, Beren can have his Snark and Finrod can have his, what - Spunk? - but obviously the rest have been sillified beyond what's expected. I mean, even in the canonical acts, many of the scenes were made more comedic or silly at the expense of some characters, but it's hard not to admit that the Valar are Comedy Valar. I've accepted Olorin in this taste too (and yes, his name is confirmed at the very end of Part 2), as all the details are technically right and it's the comic relief feature that bothers me. I guess your more in-story explanation also makes sense though, she being a somewhat spoilt princess.
To quote many elves across the length and breadth of Arda - it's both. ^_~ The Script deliberately removes the 'legend' veneer of the Silm and the Lay, but takes it beyond what the characters were "actually like" and into the realm of comedy. But, y'know... the subtle character distortions are still better than what the Zong does to Thingol.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Actually, that one stood out as more normal to me. I never really thought about it, but I sort of expected Gandalf to have learned warfare and fighting from Eruhini at some point, dunno if before or after his arrival to ME. Though I didn't think he'd be learning from dead Eruhini.
I never thought about it at all, but you're not wrong. The most likely teacher would probably be Glorfindel, since they were both in the back-to-Middle-earth team. (Though, again, is there any possibility that Finrod wouldn't involve himself in that project?)

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So far, I think Nerdanel is my favourite non-canonical addition. I like the way she balances her love with her disagreement, how she can be both concerned and ashamed of her sons but doesn't deny either side of the duality. And her reaction to Luthien (along the lines of "He gave up a Silmaril for you? He's a keeper!") was pure gold. Finarfin was questionable initially, but I think he's grown on me. Amarie got more interesting, then less interesting again, but I expect there will be more development to come.

PS: I think the Only Sane Character Award goes to Orodreth. ^.^
Orodreth and Namo have a lot of the same exasperated energy about them, actually... the Script has its ups and downs (Luthien repeats herself several times because different characters needed to respond), but it's so broad in scope that the flaws get swallowed up in the whole.

At least for me.

hS
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Old 05-26-2021, 10:02 AM   #469
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Even as nothing compared to the 50-episode Tolkien parody Amazon will soon inflict on the world.
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Old 05-26-2021, 11:53 AM   #470
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Even as nothing compared to the 50-episode Tolkien parody Amazon will soon inflict on the world.
I'm hoping for a proper '90s musical episode!

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Old 05-27-2021, 03:06 PM   #471
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I've put together a quick cut of "05a - Arrival". Please ignore my repeated missed notes as Edrahil; I just needed something to animate from, so didn't re-record the errors.

hS
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Old 05-27-2021, 05:26 PM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
That's not a goal. Beren's is specific: get into Angband, get one or more Silmarilli, get out and return to Doriath. You can plan that; it has an endgame. Even if you'd accurately stated Turin's intent, it would be open-ended, and thus - like the Leaguer - doomed to ultimate failure. It contains neither a 'defeat Morgoth' goal, nor an endpoint where you can return to stability.
...That sounds like the SMART goal thing - specific, achievable... wait, achievable? Hah!

Maybe better word for it is purpose. I still think Turin's purpose for urging Nargothrond to war is at least more respectable than Beren's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Nargothrond was already fighting - Turin just didn't like how. The debate with Gwindor goes on for a couple of pages, in which Gwindor advances a plan - "Only in secrecy lies hope of survival, until the Valar come" - while Turin says that secrecy doesn't work, that "victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only from what follows from it", and that "though Morgoth slay the doer he cannot make [a great deed] not to have been. Even the Lords of the West will honour it..."

Turin disagrees with Nargothrond's current plan, but the alternative he offers is "fight lots and die gloriously". At no point in the debate does he suggest his plan will produce any outcome other than the destruction of Nargothrond - just that it will be a praiseworthy fight.
Nargothrond wasn't fighting, it was maintaining, surviving. This is post-Nirnaeth and pre-Earendil. Surviving "until the Valar come" might as well be replaced with "until the cows come home". It's admirable to have hope in the Valar and maintaining faith and all that, but simultaneously - did they really think that the Valar, even should they take mercy, would be able to deliver them of their own doom? Could the salvation realistically happen before the doom of the Noldor was fulfilled in its entirety, and all the aspects of the Curse come to fruition? Meaning all their work, Nargothrond and Gondolin included, should turn to dust, and all their hopes fail. This is quite beside the point of what Turin was saying, but just pointing out that the alternative course of Nargothrond wasn't to happily live to see the downfall of Morgoth anyways, for philosophical reasons, and sometimes a healthy dose of despair in one's chances is not fey but realistic.

Back to Turin though, he is working from the post-Nirnaeth premise of "we're doomed anyways, might as well make the most of it". He's being realistic. Defeat Morgoth? That's back in Dagor Aglareb. Even before the Bragollach they were working with a mere "contain Morgoth" with a slight possibility of hope of things turning for the better. There is no "defeating Morgoth" in Turin's time. And Turin doesn't lay his hope on divine intervention, for many reasons; I think the principal is his complex of disappointment in figures of authority of any kind, but you can also argue that in his experience divine intervention only comes from Morgoth's side of things, and he is inherently a God-helps-those-who-help-themselves kind of person. From his perspective, the choices are: survive and live a little longer but eventually still fail (because that's essentially what both history and his own life experience have demonstrated), or fight with a desperate effort and quite likely die, but at least this way you tried instead of meekly accepting your eventual demise. It reminds me quite a bit of some real life heroes; I think Mordechai Anielewicz and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising are a fine example of parallel circumstances in the real world. Some of them failed and some who succeeded, that's how desperate rebellions go, that's the whole point. I don't think it's really fair to judge an attempt based on the outcome, and to judge it with the omnipotence and hindsight of an external observer.

Turin is not a pleasant person, he has anger management issues and mood issues and is obstinate and proud - intransigent? - to a fault. He is also brave and kind and charismatic. He is very passionate, sometimes for good and sometimes for ill. But I have a soft spot for tragic heroes, and I can relate to a lot of his sentiments. Like I can also relate very much to Feanor's words and can absolutely see how they would raise a passionate following. Doesn't mean I agree with the slaughter of Alqualonde, just... I can relate to the ideas. For Turin too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I never thought about it at all, but you're not wrong. The most likely teacher would probably be Glorfindel, since they were both in the back-to-Middle-earth team. (Though, again, is there any possibility that Finrod wouldn't involve himself in that project?)
Speaking of that... Did any of them involve themselves with Eonwe's host, for the War of Wrath? I suppose it rather depends on when they were reincarnated - so far, I think fanfiction tends to favour the idea that "Finrod walks with his father Finarfin" (paraphrased) to mean "now, while Beren's story still goes on". If they are still in Mandos during the War, then of course they wouldn't be back. But if they were already rehoused, would any of them return to Middle-earth?



Okay, impression on Part... 3? I think? I forget where I'm at, to be honest.

First of all, how many different intonations can there be to Finarfin calling Finrod "my wiseling"?
Answer: doesn't matter, I love every single one. (Seriously, I had a moment with one of those).

Also, I want to nominate Elenwe to the list of sane characters. Yavanna I would say not quite sane but, hmm, surprisingly saner than could have been? ^.^ I am enjoying their dialogue with Beren very much.

And... Luthien's account is actually quite sane and structured. She is actually not being a petulant child for once, and... wow. I will admit it, I did not quite believe you when you promised this part.

I also enjoyed the Feanorion Healer. Elenwe is fun too. Maiwe - initially she also felt like a "too much" addition, but I think I mostly like her now.

In the spirit of placing bets, I want to bet on the wayward evil spirit in the Pelori being Carcharoth. Don't think Sauron would venture there, and the temporal correlation to B&L's deaths is just too strong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I've put together a quick cut of "05a - Arrival".
Lovely! I like the arches first, walls after fading.

On the topic of the topic... I have had a think on "I would fain fulfill the will of another". I think you're right. I am attached to the phrasing as emphasizing that it's another's will and not his, this whole endeavour. But it just doesn't work with this grammar, it's too strained. What was your suggestion for that - "of her father"? That one is back on the drawing board.

And another one for reviewing: "such the unfair (is his high) price for his kingly honour". I remember that phrase didn't sit right initially, and it still doesn't. Suggestions?
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Old 05-28-2021, 03:34 AM   #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
...That sounds like the SMART goal thing - specific, achievable... wait, achievable? Hah!
I mean... Beren achieved all his goals. Turin failed at everything he attempted in Nargothrond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Turin is not a pleasant person, he has anger management issues and mood issues and is obstinate and proud - intransigent? - to a fault. He is also brave and kind and charismatic. He is very passionate, sometimes for good and sometimes for ill. But I have a soft spot for tragic heroes, and I can relate to a lot of his sentiments. Like I can also relate very much to Feanor's words and can absolutely see how they would raise a passionate following. Doesn't mean I agree with the slaughter of Alqualonde, just... I can relate to the ideas. For Turin too.
Swarn. He's swarn. ^_~

I've just read over the Nargothrond section of The Children of Hurin, and... Turin doesn't come across at all well. Ignoring all the complaining about his name, it goes like this:

~~~~

TURIN: Stealth sucks, let's stab and chase!

GWINDOR: "Petty victories will prove profitless at the last," you'll just tell Morgoth where we are. We can't raise another Siege of Angband, so better to survive until the Valar come.

TURIN: The Valar suck, Morgoth will eventually figure out where you are, "better then to win a time of glory, though it be shortlived".

GWINDOR: Seriously, don't equate Morgoth and Manwe, there's a literal prophecy saying they'll come someday. We should think of other people, not just our own glory.

TURIN: [Sneering sounds]

GWINDOR: No, we can't just send everyone to Balar, there isn't room-

TURIN: Why are we still talking, I already answered everything, my momma's better than your momma.

GWINDOR: Your momma's a slave.

~~~Five years pass~~~

GELMIR: Hi, we're from Cirdan to see the Lord of Nargothrond?

TURIN: Yo.

GELMIR: Er... I mean Orodreth?

TURIN: Oh.

GELMIR: Sire, Ulmo says you're in great danger.

ORODRETH: Um, then why did you come from the north?

GELMIR: There are more people in Beleriand than you, you know.

ORODRETH: Yeah, no, we don't know where Turgon is either, and I already know there's danger.

GELMIR: No, really danger, there's a whole army coming for you.

TURIN: Ha! Too late, already knew that too.

GELMIR: ... Sire, Ulmo says to stay indoors and hide your gate again. Nice bridge, by the way; it'd look better as rubble.

TURIN: Ha! "If in truth the Lord of Waters would send us counsel, let him speak more plainly."

GELMIR: ... look, I said what I was told to-

GELMIR'S BUDDY: You know, you're not much like your dad, mortal.

TURIN: Yeah, my hair comes from my mother.

GELMIR'S BUDDY: I meant more the fact that your kin actually know how to be polite and listen to the literal counsel of the gods.

TURIN: "Shall I... endure the taunts and ill-boding of a runagate from war, though he claim the kinship of kings? Get you back to the safe shores of the Sea!"

GELMIR: I mean... we will, but only because Ulmo literally told us to.

ORODRETH: Turin, I'm worried about this; maybe we should take the bridge down.

TURIN: Shut it, STABBY TIME!

~~~~

Turin in Nargothrond is at his most obstinate and glory-hungry. He's about half a step from pressing his hands over his ears and going 'lalala, can't hear you' to literal messengers from the gods. He also takes over the city, which isn't a good precedent to be following.

Turin in Brethil, or Doriath, or with his outlaws, is a conflicted character. Turin with Finduilas is going through emotional angst. Turin as a warrior of Nargothrond, though? He's just straight trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Speaking of that... Did any of them involve themselves with Eonwe's host, for the War of Wrath? I suppose it rather depends on when they were reincarnated - so far, I think fanfiction tends to favour the idea that "Finrod walks with his father Finarfin" (paraphrased) to mean "now, while Beren's story still goes on". If they are still in Mandos during the War, then of course they wouldn't be back. But if they were already rehoused, would any of them return to Middle-earth?
P@L's argument for 'straightaway' is this:

The Grey Annals, the chronicles of Beleriand kept by the folk of Doriath, relate (among other details of the Quest) that Finrod was not long in the Halls of Mandos. Bearing in mind that "not long" does not necessarily mean the same thing for Elves as for mortals, it is still a very significant remark — for it inevitably leads to the question, How did they know? The Grey Annals being what they were, unless the notation is a "later scribal interpolation" it must necessarily predate the War of Wrath — which is the only point in the First Age after the Flight of the Noldor when corporeal, surface-traversing travellers arrive out of the West.

IE, unless the Eagles or Ulmo habitually brought gossip over from Aman, Beren and Luthien are the only logical source for the news.

Would Finrod have gone with the Host of the Valar? I think probably yes! Silm implies that Finarfin led the Noldor host, and it's hard to imagine his reconciled son - who is also the most experiences soldier in the land - not going along. (Does this mean there was another family squabble when Galadriel refused to sail West...?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Okay, impression on Part... 3? I think? I forget where I'm at, to be honest.

First of all, how many different intonations can there be to Finarfin calling Finrod "my wiseling"?
Answer: doesn't matter, I love every single one. (Seriously, I had a moment with one of those).

Also, I want to nominate Elenwe to the list of sane characters. Yavanna I would say not quite sane but, hmm, surprisingly saner than could have been? ^.^ I am enjoying their dialogue with Beren very much.

And... Luthien's account is actually quite sane and structured. She is actually not being a petulant child for once, and... wow. I will admit it, I did not quite believe you when you promised this part.

I also enjoyed the Feanorion Healer. Elenwe is fun too. Maiwe - initially she also felt like a "too much" addition, but I think I mostly like her now.

In the spirit of placing bets, I want to bet on the wayward evil spirit in the Pelori being Carcharoth. Don't think Sauron would venture there, and the temporal correlation to B&L's deaths is just too strong.
I really enjoy the 'Beren goes walkabout' scenes; for the longest time I had difficulty imagining the Valar any other way, and it's still my go-to mental image. The presence of the dead Trees in "Wind" is a direct reference to the conversation on the Corollaire, of course.

Luthien continues to suffer a bit now she's the storyteller; there's several stage directions that just have her sitting there looking bemused while Finrod goes off on a tangent, because... well, by this point she's the person who has the least connection with the rest of the cast! She's left out, because the family interactions have been built up so heavily over the previous scenes. While Beren's telling was about him, Luthien's is largely about the people around her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Lovely! I like the arches first, walls after fading.

On the topic of the topic... I have had a think on "I would fain fulfill the will of another". I think you're right. I am attached to the phrasing as emphasizing that it's another's will and not his, this whole endeavour. But it just doesn't work with this grammar, it's too strained. What was your suggestion for that - "of her father"? That one is back on the drawing board.

And another one for reviewing: "such the unfair (is his high) price for his kingly honour". I remember that phrase didn't sit right initially, and it still doesn't. Suggestions?
I think "of her father" was my suggestion, yes; I'll take a look at both of these, and skim the rest of the lyrics.

I think I asked way back but don't remember the answer: the 'darkened dome' line. It's very powerful, but... what does it mean?

hS
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Old 05-28-2021, 06:53 AM   #474
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Okay, Appeal commentary:

To my father once you had made a promise

That 'had' is purely for the syllable. Possibly 'To my father once you [made/swore] [oath/vow] and promise'?

But to him my love merely is a reason!

I think 'merely is' may have been my fault, but 'is merely' would be less gratuituous.

Such the unfair price for his kingly honour!

Is there a reason we haven't just quoted the Silm? 'Such a [meagre/little] price for his kingly honour!'

I would fain in battle my love defend,

This one is fine, but I wonder if the original means 'my love, Luthien' or 'my love for Luthien'? Or is it a both?

I would fain fulfill the will of another,

How about 'I would fain fulfil his demand with honour'? With the 'kingly honour' line before, it would be "He's sold his honour, but I'll keep mine."

One can't escape one's doom...
How could I have foreseen this?
This plan leads to a tomb
A Curse from slumber rises!...


Possibly 'How might I'; I kind of want an 'ought' in there, but the grammar would break. Also, 'This course' or 'This road leads'?

In this poisoned chalice is my doom brewing.

'my doom is' should sing fine.

So yeah, basically it's the ones you already highlighted. I see we're right back at the first song you translated - it's good stuff. I love the fact that Finrod finally snaps and joins Beren's fast ranting - only for Beren to pick up his own slower tune in response.

It would be fun to stage this sequence live - I'm seeing Beren going away distraught from 'Appeal', and Finrod not telling him the plan before 'Renunciation' starts. He'd have to sit through the entire song conveying his rollercoaster ride of reactions in silence, telling the entire story behind the final 'Sire, I thank you for being true' just through acting.

hS
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Old 05-28-2021, 07:00 AM   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I mean... Beren achieved all his goals. Turin failed at everything he attempted in Nargothrond.
I mean, he kind of failed everything he attempted ever. But yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Swarn. He's swarn. ^_~


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I've just read over the Nargothrond section of The Children of Hurin, and... Turin doesn't come across at all well. Ignoring all the complaining about his name, it goes like this:

...

Turin in Nargothrond is at his most obstinate and glory-hungry. He's about half a step from pressing his hands over his ears and going 'lalala, can't hear you' to literal messengers from the gods. He also takes over the city, which isn't a good precedent to be following.

Turin in Brethil, or Doriath, or with his outlaws, is a conflicted character. Turin with Finduilas is going through emotional angst. Turin as a warrior of Nargothrond, though? He's just straight trouble.
Fair. Probably his most unpleasant too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
IE, unless the Eagles or Ulmo habitually brought gossip over from Aman, Beren and Luthien are the only logical source for the news.
Well, aside from the War of Wrath itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Would Finrod have gone with the Host of the Valar? I think probably yes! Silm implies that Finarfin led the Noldor host, and it's hard to imagine his reconciled son - who is also the most experiences soldier in the land - not going along. (Does this mean there was another family squabble when Galadriel refused to sail West...?)
And here I was thinkjng that Galadriel hasn't seen her family for 3 Ages...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I really enjoy the 'Beren goes walkabout' scenes; for the longest time I had difficulty imagining the Valar any other way, and it's still my go-to mental image. The presence of the dead Trees in "Wind" is a direct reference to the conversation on the Corollaire, of course.
The conversation on the Corollaire is beauty. Love it.

Also, just got to Edrahil's development as tempter of mortal maidens (:-D), and his offer of restarting clean with Maiwe... ow. That was rough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I think I asked way back but don't remember the answer: the 'darkened dome' line. It's very powerful, but... what does it mean?


It means I needed a rhyme for "home"? ^.^ The Russian there says "You passed the border of enchantment from the side of night and darkness". That reminds me more of Doriath than Nargothrond, tbh. I figured "darkened dome" can mean anything fron "night sky" to whatever abstraction you prefer... and it rhymes. ^.^


Edit: xed with the last. It's been a while sjnce I said that.
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Old 05-28-2021, 07:25 AM   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
To my father once you had made a promise

That 'had' is purely for the syllable. Possibly 'To my father once you [made/swore] [oath/vow] and promise'?
"You made solemn promise"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
But to him my love merely is a reason!

I think 'merely is' may have been my fault, but 'is merely' would be less gratuituous.
Yes, I think "is merely" is what he really means, but when you sing it it comes out Is mereLY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Such the unfair price for his kingly honour!

Is there a reason we haven't just quoted the Silm? 'Such a [meagre/little] price for his kingly honour!'
Yeah, you've suggested that before. I didn't like it, because in the Sil Beren is talking to Thingol, with snark and sacrasm - and even in the sarcasm, he still means it, that Thingol would exchange Luthien for an object. Whereas here, he is opening his heart to Finrod with complete honesty, and is lamenting the difficulty of the task. However... it's still somewhat of a snide remark at Thingol, so maybe a dose of sarcasm is not too out of place...

What about "Such the price he set for his kingly honour"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I would fain in battle my love defend,

This one is fine, but I wonder if the original means 'my love, Luthien' or 'my love for Luthien'? Or is it a both?
-- Yes.

Could be both grammatically, but at this point he has nothing to worry about with regard to defending Luthien, her being safe at home, so my understanding was always that he means "love for Luthien" and not "Luthien".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I would fain fulfill the will of another,

How about 'I would fain fulfil his demand with honour'? With the 'kingly honour' line before, it would be "He's sold his honour, but I'll keep mine."
I like that best of the three options, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
One can't escape one's doom...
How could I have foreseen this?
This plan leads to a tomb
A Curse from slumber rises!...


Possibly 'How might I'; I kind of want an 'ought' in there, but the grammar would break. Also, 'This course' or 'This road leads'?
"How might" and either of the two work. I think "this course" is more accurate of what he means, a course of action in the general sense, but "this road" sounds more dramatic. I am leaning "road", I think.

"Ought to" would do well, yeah... "I ought to have foreseen this"? But this is supposed to be a question recognizing that he really couldn't have foreseen it. Dunno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
In this poisoned chalice is my doom brewing.

'my doom is' should sing fine.
...Stop dismantling my Yoda grammar!

Yeah, you're probably right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I see we're right back at the first song you translated - it's good stuff.
Yeah. Coming around the circle again - and this piece is still a little bit magical for me, especially in V1, where Beren just wears his heart on his sleeve throughout it.

And next is Amarie - your first! This is a nice way to begin Half #2 of the project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
It would be fun to stage this sequence live - I'm seeing Beren going away distraught from 'Appeal', and Finrod not telling him the plan before 'Renunciation' starts. He'd have to sit through the entire song conveying his rollercoaster ride of reactions in silence, telling the entire story behind the final 'Sire, I thank you for being true' just through acting.
That would be quite cool!
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Old 05-31-2021, 04:37 PM   #477
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Ha! I knew it would be Carcharoth! I knew it! I win an imaginary trinket.

(Speaking of imaginary trinkets, it only came to me now how much our lives on the Downs resemble the lives in the Halls of Mandos, at least as told in the Script. Some people "formed" and active, others lurking to varying degrees, others still completely insubstantial. Time generally goes by slowly, it a thread was equated to a conversation - but sometimes it goes fast - Deadline Chicken anyone? - and has no correlation to RL time. The difference, of course, being that we want people to stay here. I guess an Undead theme is very appropriate for what we do.)

I liked the Script, it was an excellent read! It's a shame it's unfinished. I know I've complained about some stuff not going the way I envisioned, but that's only because all the rest of it had nothing to complain of.


In unrelated news, I finished the first chapter of Dawn. This one can be read by itself, since the deviation from the known and predictable storyline happens later on. And once that happens, I wonder if binge-reading is better than going one chapter every couple weeks. I fear that it rather lost in translation. :/ Also, fair warning - I have not read over it to make sure it flows smoothly, and I'm sure it's full of spontaneous mid-sentence tense changes, Yoda grammar, run-on sentences, and other ungainly weirdness. If something does stick its neck out to you, or a more colourful wording occurs to you, please comment on it and I'll fix it.

Right now I think this literary pastime is the more productive of the two. I do my thing in snatches these days, and I find it a lot easier to translate one sentence at a time than to compose one note at a time, it takes me a lot longer to "get in the mood" for music. I might just leave music till better days (read: 3-ish weeks from now), unless I unexpectedly get a solid few hours of time to work on it.
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Old 06-09-2021, 12:48 PM   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
It occurs to me, now that Urwen is around again, that we've gone wrong by trying to tie Les Mis to the Fall of the Noldor when it's quite clearly the Fall of Gondolin.

And Valjean is Maeglin.

They caught me in the mines
They chained me to the wall.
I'm faceless in the dark
Another nameless thrall.

I should have been a prince
With Idril as my bride!
To take her as my own
What is not justified?

If I speak - I am condemned
If I stay silent - I am damned.

I am the master of thousands of miners
The House of the Mole.
Yet they abandon me here in the dark
A tormented soul

If I speak - they are condemned
If I stay silent - I am damned!

Who am I?
Am I content to live in slavery
To mortal Man who has the ears of kings?
The chains of pity he would wield
Are stronger than of iron or steel
Who am I?

Should I forsake myself for Idril's sake?
Protect the city as my own heart breaks?
And must my name as long before
Be Son of Darkness evermore
Here I lie...

Why not ally myself to greater power?
Why should I suffer here another hour?
To make the princess mine alone
My love will break unweathered stone

I pledge alliegance to the King!
I will yield all I know to Him!

Who am I?
I'm Maeglin
Of Gondolin!

And so, Morgoth, you see it's true
I am of priceless worth to you!
Gondolin -
I - will - let - you - in!


^_^

hS
That's blimming good, Huey!
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Old 06-10-2021, 08:19 AM   #479
Huinesoron
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Originally Posted by Pervinca Took View Post
That's blimming good, Huey!
Thanks! Filking is great - you don't have to come up with an interesting tune yourself, it's right there for you.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
And here I was thinkjng that Galadriel hasn't seen her family for 3 Ages...
It certainly adds an extra layer to things if the call to return that she rejected was from her dad, in person.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
"You made solemn promise"?
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Yes, I think "is merely" is what he really means, but when you sing it it comes out Is mereLY.
I mean... I'm not sure if it's the Russian getting to me, but I don't mind slightly weird syllable-emphasis in minor words. I guess we'll see how it sings.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Yeah, you've suggested that before. I didn't like it, because in the Sil Beren is talking to Thingol, with snark and sacrasm - and even in the sarcasm, he still means it, that Thingol would exchange Luthien for an object. Whereas here, he is opening his heart to Finrod with complete honesty, and is lamenting the difficulty of the task. However... it's still somewhat of a snide remark at Thingol, so maybe a dose of sarcasm is not too out of place...

What about "Such the price he set for his kingly honour"?
That's a good compromise.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
-- Yes.
[Throws up hands] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I like that best of the three options, I think.
Done.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
"How might" and either of the two work. I think "this course" is more accurate of what he means, a course of action in the general sense, but "this road" sounds more dramatic. I am leaning "road", I think.

"Ought to" would do well, yeah... "I ought to have foreseen this"? But this is supposed to be a question recognizing that he really couldn't have foreseen it. Dunno.
I think might/road for now; the 'ought' version is just too big a stretch.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
...Stop dismantling my Yoda grammar!

Yeah, you're probably right.
I mean, we could go all-in on the Yoda...

Naught but madness I hear in what you said,
Poisoned is this cup, hmm, my doom it's brewing
Eldar crave not honour, but to serve instead;
Dangerous this passion - our lives you'll ruin!


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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Ha! I knew it would be Carcharoth! I knew it! I win an imaginary trinket.
[Solemnly hands over a brooch]

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
(Speaking of imaginary trinkets, it only came to me now how much our lives on the Downs resemble the lives in the Halls of Mandos, at least as told in the Script. Some people "formed" and active, others lurking to varying degrees, others still completely insubstantial. Time generally goes by slowly, it a thread was equated to a conversation - but sometimes it goes fast - Deadline Chicken anyone? - and has no correlation to RL time. The difference, of course, being that we want people to stay here. I guess an Undead theme is very appropriate for what we do.)
P@L was Very Online, so it's quite possible this is deliberate. But you're right, it is uniquely appropriate to the Downs as it currently stands.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I liked the Script, it was an excellent read! It's a shame it's unfinished. I know I've complained about some stuff not going the way I envisioned, but that's only because all the rest of it had nothing to complain of.
From my side, it's been a delight to get to talk about it; I've loved the Script for more than a decade, despite its flaws. (Incidentally, just yesterday someone mentioned that they heard from P@L earlier this year! She's still alive and well, and apparently does some non-fandom sort of writing. So it's just possible that someday she'll come back and finish it off...!

(That's what the Eldar call estel, I believe. ^_~)

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In unrelated news, I finished the first chapter of Dawn. This one can be read by itself, since the deviation from the known and predictable storyline happens later on. And once that happens, I wonder if binge-reading is better than going one chapter every couple weeks. I fear that it rather lost in translation. :/ Also, fair warning - I have not read over it to make sure it flows smoothly, and I'm sure it's full of spontaneous mid-sentence tense changes, Yoda grammar, run-on sentences, and other ungainly weirdness. If something does stick its neck out to you, or a more colourful wording occurs to you, please comment on it and I'll fix it.
Having finished reading two other things, this is now top of my list. What that means in practical terms I'm not sure, but at least it's there. ^_^

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Right now I think this literary pastime is the more productive of the two. I do my thing in snatches these days, and I find it a lot easier to translate one sentence at a time than to compose one note at a time, it takes me a lot longer to "get in the mood" for music. I might just leave music till better days (read: 3-ish weeks from now), unless I unexpectedly get a solid few hours of time to work on it.
I get that; I've been bouncing between various bits of writing and drawing and other weirder pastimes, it really is a 'what am I currently best suited to?' thing. The Zong will wait.

hS
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Old 06-10-2021, 09:27 AM   #480
Galadriel55
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I mean... I'm not sure if it's the Russian getting to me, but I don't mind slightly weird syllable-emphasis in minor words. I guess we'll see how it sings.
Lol. "See how it sings" is I think where I'm at too.

I think my problem with Yoding around and weird word and emphasis placement is that I tend to stick too tightly to the Russian sentence structure when translating directly, as I am now learning from Dawn. Turns out I need to do things twice: first translate it with decent language, then read just the English after I've forgotten how exactly the Russian goes and correct the awkward sentence structures. (Hint, if you're reading it: I still haven't really done the second step on a global level).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
[Throws up hands] Elves!
Do not go to the Elves for council, for they will say both yes and yes. Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I mean, we could go all-in on the Yoda...

Naught but madness I hear in what you said,
Poisoned is this cup, hmm, my doom it's brewing
Eldar crave not honour, but to serve instead;
Dangerous this passion - our lives you'll ruin!


Cracked me up, this did. immortalized in our archives it should be, yes, hmm. In honour of our grammar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
[Solemnly hands over a brooch]
[Clips imaginary brooch to equally imaginary cloak]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
From my side, it's been a delight to get to talk about it; I've loved the Script for more than a decade, despite its flaws. (Incidentally, just yesterday someone mentioned that they heard from P@L earlier this year! She's still alive and well, and apparently does some non-fandom sort of writing. So it's just possible that someday she'll come back and finish it off...!

(That's what the Eldar call estel, I believe. ^_~)
That is indeed Estel in the highest sense... ^.^ But wouldn't that be delightful!

I think my favourite has to be the Beren in Nargothrond act... Act II? I found that the Act 4 relationship between Beren and the Elves is a bit boiled down to blaming self and others, depending on who's talking to whom. But Act 2 had brilliant humour, and I loved the relationship development between Beren and Finrod. ("Beor?...") In Act 4, I think the part I liked a lot is the story development in the end, where they reveal that post-Feanor Valinor was not all song and dancing and la-di-da like the ME-centered history sort of implies. But, of course, nothing beats Finarfin calling Finrod his wiseling. ^.^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Having finished reading two other things, this is now top of my list. What that means in practical terms I'm not sure, but at least it's there. ^_^
I mean, a year or two from now, when it's actually finished, I will let you know. I've also loved this fic, though not even for a year now, in spite of its flaws. And I would be very excited to talk to someone about it, because it too has some very interesting things to offer. Also, it really inspired Wind for me - I was very much looking through the lens of that fic when I was arranging it.

Appeal is happening, just... very slowly. It will come in it's time. It's also that I don't really know what I want to do for the first couple stanzas - I have a better picture in mind for how I want "I would fain" onwards to sound, so it should be faster going there.
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