The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-25-2010, 06:46 PM   #1
Kyranger
Wight
 
Kyranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 168
Kyranger has just left Hobbiton.
Mouth of Sauron?

Alright I am doing this by memory, so tell me if I get something wrong. Aragorn said at Parth Galen that Sauron did not use his right name or allowed it to be spoken, so why did the Mouth of Sauron introduce himself with that name? And also I think that he even referred to his master as Sauron the Great, or something like that anyway. So what do you guys think? Was it just a slip up or what?
Kyranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 07:05 PM   #2
Ibrîniðilpathânezel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Ibrîniðilpathânezel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 743
Ibrîniðilpathânezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Ibrîniðilpathânezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sauron — which means "the abhorred" — isn't his "right name." From various indications in the HoME books, it was originally Mairon or Aulendil. Just as Morgoth was not Melkor's original name, but one applied to him by his enemies, Sauron doubtless didn't consider himself abhorrent, and though he might not have clung to a name like Aulendil — "friend of Aulë" — he might still think of himself as Mairon, which I believe is derived from the "beautiful" meaning of "Maia."
__________________
Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :)
Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill
Ibrîniðilpathânezel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 07:14 PM   #3
Puddleglum
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
Puddleglum has just left Hobbiton.
Maybe, but the reference to Aragorn is in the context where Gimli has just said "S is for Sauron", to which Aragorn replies "Sauron does not permit his name to be spoken." It is clear from the context that it is the name "Sauron" specifically that Sauron does not permit to be spelled or spoken. Which still leaves the question wide open.

I'd guess it was an oversight on Tolkien's part (one of few) - unless we hypothesize that the Mouth was so high in Sauron's favor that he was allowed to use the name. In that case we could say that Aragorn's information was not 100% correct (perhaps he had only before encountered servants of Sauron that were not permitted to speak/write the name).
Puddleglum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 07:27 PM   #4
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,573
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
There has been a long-ish thread about this some time ago. I believe it was even possibly started by me Oh yes, and it was - here it is: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=13616
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 07:36 PM   #5
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,051
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
My position is that Sauron did not allow his servants to use any personal name for him under normal circumstances, probably due to a desire to be as impersonal to his minions as possible, befitting the "king and god" status he wanted to have with them.
When dealing with his enemies, however, the use of a name was required. The Mouth wasn't the first one to do it apparently, either.

Quote:
'Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dáin, but not from Moria--from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dáin to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship.'
That was Glóin speaking to the Council of Elrond.

So, when Sauron dealt with those he didn't command, he had to use a name, and I think 'the abhorred' was probably not something he particularly hated; on the contrary, he would likely have been proud of it.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 08:16 AM   #6
Nerwen
Wisest of the Noldor
 
Nerwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ
Posts: 6,701
Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Nerwen is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via Skype™ to Nerwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddleglum View Post
I'd guess it was an oversight on Tolkien's part (one of few) - unless we hypothesize that the Mouth was so high in Sauron's favor that he was allowed to use the name. In that case we could say that Aragorn's information was not 100% correct (perhaps he had only before encountered servants of Sauron that were not permitted to speak/write the name).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
My position is that Sauron did not allow his servants to use any personal name for him under normal circumstances, probably due to a desire to be as impersonal to his minions as possible, befitting the "king and god" status he wanted to have with them. When dealing with his enemies, however, the use of a name was required.
Also, there's the matter of context: the three were hurriedly trying to work out the allegiance of the Orcs bearing the "S" insignia. Aragorn (and the author) might have thought it irrelevant to mention any such exceptions to the rule at that point.

Whatever the details of Mordorian etiquette, I don't think this concept (that Sauron's servants avoid using his actual name) is just a "freak", brought up in that one chapter and then forgotten. The various Mordor Orcs we meet do go out of their way not to say it, instead substituting "The Great Eye", "Him" etc. (Gollum, who also talks like this, can be presumed to have picked up the habit in Mordor.) It's true that the good characters aren't too keen on using Sauron's name either– there's obviously some kind of "speak of the devil" notion in play in Middle-earth– but they're not nearly so consistent about it.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

Last edited by Nerwen; 11-26-2010 at 08:21 AM. Reason: clarification
Nerwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 01:43 PM   #7
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,013
Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Yes I agree with Inziladun and Nerwen.

In my opinion Aragorn need not mean 'not in any circumstance whatsoever'; he was speaking generally and in reaction to tokens on orc-gear, and is correct enough without adding something like 'but there may be some instances in which Sauron might allow...'

I think this is just realistic conversation given the situation.

Last edited by Galin; 12-01-2010 at 08:09 AM.
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 06:49 PM   #8
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,472
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Well, the Mouth of Sauron couldn't bloody well have a conversation like...

MoS: I am the Mouth of...ahem.

Gandalf: Beg pardon? The Mouth? The Mouth of whom?

MoS: You know.

Aragorn: Ummm...I am afraid we don't.

MoS: Oh come on! Him -- you know -- HIM!

Gandalf: You are not being very clear.

MoS: You know, the Big Guy.

Aragorn: Is he referring to a Troll?

Gimli: Could be. Troll's need someone to speak for them.

Legolas: Aye, they are very inarticulate.

MoS: No, no, no! I am the Mouth of Sssssss...of Sssss...oh damn!

Gandalf: Sssss?

Pippin: Sam!

Gimli: No! What would a Hobbit need with another mouth? They have one too many already!

Gandalf: This is getting us nowhere. What we need is someone who can speak for Sauron.

Pippin: Why, can't he speak for himself?

MoS: Sighs...
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2010, 02:47 PM   #9
Khazad-dûm
Pile O'Bones
 
Khazad-dûm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12
Khazad-dûm has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien Lmao ^

Perhaps at the time when Aragorn said 'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken...' at the time Sauron was still building his power and armies trying to be as secret as possible. Then by the time they speak with the Mouth of Sauron (third book) its already obvious that it's him so why pretend it's not.

Here's something out of the Encyclopedia of Arda that I base my statement on.

"One possible reason for Aragorn's error is that his information is out of date. For most of the Third Age, Sauron had been building his strength, in secret, at Dol Guldur. Given his need to remain hidden, it's natural that he would ban his servants from using his real name. Any detailed information that Aragorn had about him and his ways would date back to Gandalf's spying expeditions in this period."
Khazad-dûm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:49 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.