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Old 05-12-2003, 08:42 PM   #1
Angadraug
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Tolkien The other rings

So who exactly gave the elves, dwarves, and humans their rings of power? Was it Sauron because I've been told different and now I'm confused.
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Old 05-12-2003, 09:31 PM   #2
Tigerlily Gamgee
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I believe it was Sauron when he was in a human form. Sauron the deceiver...
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Old 05-12-2003, 09:46 PM   #3
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actually, the rings were all made by celebrimdor and the noldor of lindon in the days of their might under the tutelage of sauron who went by a dfferent name and called himself an emissary of aule to teach them, he helped with the nine and seven, but never touched the three. THe seven were given by well, both celebrimdor and sauron for them, but the nine were given by sauron. THe three were given to the elves by celebrimdor to safeguard them, i believe ot gil-galad, cirdan and galadriel, but I may be wrong on the gil galad, it may have been the high king before him.
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Old 05-12-2003, 10:26 PM   #4
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Of the 19 "Rings of Power," Sauron had a hand in making 16 of them. Beyond these there were supposedly various "lesser rings," the manufacture of which had mostly preceded Sauron's assistance to the Gwaith-i-Mirdain, the Jewel-smiths of Eregion; these lesser rings, Sauron either came to hoard or to give away as tokens, and doubtless the Elves preserved some. The lesser rings were not necessarily under the sway of the One Ring, but also they do not seem to have conveyed any particularly great abilities or invisibility, nor give indefinite life to mortals.

Of the Three Rings of Power that Sauron did not touch, these were given by Celebrimbor (their maker) in order of greatness to: Gil-Galad, Galadriel and Cirdan (or Cirdan's came indirectly through Gil-Galad). This happened either just before or right after Sauron made the One Ring, as immediately perceived by Celebrimbor and the other Elven-smiths. Therefore, the three Elven ring bearers could not generally wear, openly use or effectively wield their Rings, even though they did derive some power and strength from possessing them, in the Second Age, during which time Gil-Galad gave Vilya to Elrond. In the Third Age, the three Elven lords (not realy "kings" any) did tremendous work with The Three, although Cirdan had relatively little use for his, and gave it to Mithrandir c. 1000 TA.

Of the 16 other Rings of Power, one was supposedly given directly by Celebrimbor to Durin's heir in Moria, probably before the making of The One, and the Dwarves of Khazad-dum were then doubtless warned against using it significantly while Sauron had The One. I find this tradition of the Dwarves much more credible than having Durin's Folk receive a ring from Sauron.

Of the remaining 15, Sauron sought out a leader from among the other six houses of the Dwarves, in the mid-Second Age. Presumably, Gundabad was then still an ancestral home of one such group. A royal branch of the houses associated with Belegost and Nogrod likely still maintained a presence in the Blue Mountains or elsewhere, even if most of their population had joined the Dwarves of Moria. And perhaps, each of the other three dwarf houses had once existed in the Mountains of Mordor, the Mountains of Mirkwood, the Grey Mountains or further east, before Sauron's dominion. But Sauron could not dominate dwarves directly through their Rings, nor did any dwarf escape death by bearing a Ring. Nevertheless, the Seven rings did give the Dwarves power after their own hearts, in amassing further riches, but they likewise contributed to the decline of the Dwarven Houses. Their fastnesses and weakeness seemed to be more easily perceived by Sauron or by Dragons, and the Rings accentuated the rage, paranoia, bitterness and avarice that were fatal flaws of the Dwarves to begin with. By the end of the Second Age, the House of Durin may have been the only one still existing with any integrity, and Sauron had recovered two of the six that he had given away, and four were consumed by Dragons (or possibly later in the Third Age). The one held by Durin's line was eventually taken from Thrain, Thorin's father in Dol Guldor (2845 TA).

The remaining Nine were given to Men at some point during the middle Second Age. The recipients were supposedly kings, sorcerers and/or warriors, who became greater still, and lived (seemingly) for great spans of time, as Sauron had no doubt promised, before they were fully enthralled by him as shadows, and Sauron held their rings, until giving them back to them before the War of the Rings. Doubtless, besides the Nazgul themselves, Sauron gained a lasting hold on the allegiance of the nations formerly ruled by those ring-bearers. Three of them were Numenorean lords who had realms at Umbar or farther south. If they were already Black Numenoreans at the time, that would suggest that Sauron did not necessarily give out the Nine immediately after the overthrow of Eregion, but possibly centuries later. Alternatively, these three became forerunners of what were eventually called "Black Numenoreans" or the King's Men in Middle-Earth. Angmar, the chief of the Nine, was supposed a great Numenorean sorcerer. Possibly one of the other six came from among the pre-Dunlendish Men of the White Mountains, who later worshipped Sauron. Probably, as least three were Easterlings, related to those that had allied with Morgoth. The Black Rider that comes to Hobbiton, had once been an Easterling. The other two, I suspect would be out of Nurn, Haradrim or some places south of Mordor. It does not seem that Sauron would have had much chance to encounter Andunaic groups in the North during the Second Age. So, I discount that any former Northman became Nazgul.
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Old 05-13-2003, 01:06 PM   #5
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Man-of-the-Wold, where did you find all such detailed information about the Nazgűl? [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]
Probably I missed something when reading the books, but, for instance, I never realized that the name of the Witch-king was Angmar (I thought that it was only the name of his kingdom in the North ...) [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]
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Old 05-13-2003, 07:50 PM   #6
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Angmar isn't the name of the Witch-king. It is just the name of his realm. He is always referred to as the "Lord of the Nazgűl", or the "Witch-king of Angmar". No one knows any of the Nazgűl's names (save Khaműl and *possibly* Gothmog [see other threads for that]).

But the rest is correct.
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Old 05-21-2003, 11:01 PM   #7
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Yes, I agree and apologize; "Angmar," which means something line Ironhome is a Place-Name to be sure, and seemingly not a Proper-Name for the Chief of the Nazgul, although I've seen it used as such elsewhere (maybe the David Day Bestiary, which is flawed), and I find it a useful shorthand for him, but sorry to cause confusion. Again, by the time of the War of the Rings, those guys had left their real lives behind by 3,500 to 4,500 years ago. Although Elrond and loremasters of Gondor could have identified some of them, such information had no use, and was not generally known. Likely, the Ringwraiths themselves may have had no knowledge of whom they had been.

Yes, I believe that Gothmog was a name used for a Nazgul, who was either the second-in-command out of Morgul, or the Nazgul-in-charge of forces issuing from Cirith Gorgor in the assault on Minas Tirith.

Khaműl is I believe supposedly the name of the Nazgul who comes Hobbiton, and who was known in reference to his past as the "Black Easterling". He was also, I think, the Chief among the Nazgul that been in command of the reoccupation of Dol Guldor, after Sauron left the last time.

Beyond this nothing else in particular is known about the Nine.
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Old 05-22-2003, 05:40 AM   #8
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A similar discussion is going on in the thread "The Mouth of Sauron". Maybe you'll find answers to some of your questions there, Angadraug.
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Old 05-22-2003, 01:47 PM   #9
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O o, what a pity, Man-of-the-Wold !!! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I thought you could tell me where to find all that interesting information about Nazgűl !!!
Nevertheless, I think that your suppositions about them could be not too far from reality [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 05-27-2003, 06:32 PM   #10
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Do we really know for a fact that Gothmog is one of the Nazgul? All that we know is that he was the second-in-command of Minas Morgul, so he could have always been someone like the Mouth of Sauron. Not a wraith, but a living, or a semi-living man.
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Old 05-27-2003, 10:51 PM   #11
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Sorry, Amarie. Hopefully, my suppositions or analytical summations are distinguishable from the more "factual" points derived more directly from The Books. For better or worse, unless there is something in HoME X-XII, which I'm approaching in the near future, I'm not aware of anything point on about the Nazgul, although they say a lot about Tolkien's vision, both dark and light, fate and free will.

Much of what I try to know is a synthesis of gleanings mostly from the Lord of Rings, in which there is a remarkable amount information, without names. The Unfinished Tales fill in some blanks, as does "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", which is the last part of the published Silmarillion, of which the perhaps only the "Quenta Silmarillion" therein, must be viewed with skepticism as a less than perfect editing by Christopher Tolkien.

Gothmog, be he Nazgul or not, is one of the great imponderables. I have picked my side, and that is all that one can do. My rule, however, is to take the most ready alternative that requires the least amount of additional invention. So, to make him another Nazgul, is simply easiest, like accepting that Cirdan has a beard. To do otherwise means speculating about powerful level of Orc captains, human leaders or other creations, for which we have not true hint.
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