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Old 09-22-2004, 05:56 PM   #1
Zebedee
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Ring Gimli and the Ring

Would Gimli had been corrupted by the Ring if Frodo had not left? I thought about this once or twice. The Dwarves were made stubborn so they could resist the enemy, so theoreticaly, could Gimli have resisted? Also, Sauron could not corrupt the holders of the 7 dwarf rings.
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Old 09-22-2004, 07:42 PM   #2
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The Ring would have begun to corrupt everyone around it, but certainly not to as extreme an extent as Frodo. Gimli probably would have felt drawn to the Ring, but as you said, Dwarves are made of stern stuff and he probably would have been able to resist it.

This is all just speculation; I can't think of any text to back it up off the top of my head.
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Old 09-22-2004, 07:43 PM   #3
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1420! Another piece.

I think, Gimli, would have been the last of the Fellowship members to fall to the ring (if it ever came to that). Gimli saw the ring as another piece of gold to throw on the pile of gold dwarves already have, he didn't see it as Boromir did like a "weapon" to use and wield against Sauron. He just saw it as another piece of gold, but being that the dwarves are greedy and want to accumulate more wealth he would have taken it, but that's why I think he would have been the last. Because he didn't see it as some of the others did.
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Old 09-22-2004, 07:47 PM   #4
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I thought that he would be the last to try to take it if he was to take it at all, but I wanted to see if anyone else knew something about this.
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Old 09-23-2004, 01:04 AM   #5
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Gimli may not have considered the ring a weapon, but there are other ideas that it could have put into his head. It was discussed at the Council of Elrond that Sauron had offered the dwarves dominion over Moria for all time, if they would reveal what they knew about the Shire.

Gimli could have been tempted to take the ring, and trade it for the fame, and honour of securing Moria for the dwarvish people. He could think of returning to the days of the Second Age when dwarves locked themselves away and largely ignored the problems of the surface world.

I think the ring would use whatever it needed to work away at the resistance of the members of the fellowship. Sooner or later it would have broken everyone.
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Old 09-23-2004, 02:55 AM   #6
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There are some further thoughts on this issue, relating to the Fellowship in general, here:

Which of the Fellowship would have gone ring mad?
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Old 09-23-2004, 04:51 PM   #7
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Ring

I believe that sooner or later everyone would have been tempted by the ring, though dwarves probably would have been some of the last.
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Old 09-24-2004, 11:59 AM   #8
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Everyone seems to think that Gimli would be the last of the fellowship to fall to the ring, but that doesn't give much credit to the others. I believe that the other Hobbits would be the last ones to be drawn under its power. Hobbits have latent strength to resist things such as this ring. Also, Gimli would have many more inspirations in his heart that the ring could play on; it could make him think that the ring would be safest ith the dwarfs who would be able to hold it under ground, or maybe could draw upon his desire for Moria, even though I think that temptation less likely. Also, I'm not sure whether Legolas would fall before him; the elves have a pretty good track record with their rings.
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Old 09-24-2004, 12:41 PM   #9
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1420! Half agree.

Eldar:
Quote:
I believe that the other Hobbits would be the last ones to be drawn under its power.
Good point about the Hobbits, I do think they wouldn't be affected like the other members. I think the only one it would "sway" more then the other hobbits would be Pippin, just because of his curiosity, but I think Merry and Sam would have been very resistant to the ring.
Quote:
Also, I'm not sure whether Legolas would fall before him; the elves have a pretty good track record with their rings.
There, I'm not sure if I would agree, atleast not me. We know Galadriel and Elrond were power hungy, and I would think Legolas, being an elf from Mirkwood, and being tired of living in a dark forest infested with spiders, would use the ring to turn Mirkwood into a beautiful place like Rivendell or Lothlorien. I think je would just use the ring to turn the slums of Mirkwood into a beautiful Lothlorien. That is my opinion, though.
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Old 09-24-2004, 03:54 PM   #10
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But the whole nature of the allure of the Ring is contradictory. Some characters display the slow poison of the thing (Bilbo, Frodo). Others are tempted (Gandalf, Galadriel) Others are immediately corrupted by the mere proximity (Boromir) whilst still others know of the Ring and are not affected by it (Merry, Sam, Faramir)
So the power to corrupt is not absolute. Sam was immune to it, despite actually bearing the Ring. Boromir was corrupted by it's mere proximity....why?
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Old 09-25-2004, 07:44 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Eldar14
Hobbits have latent strength to resist things such as this ring.
Smeagol didn't.
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Old 09-25-2004, 02:14 PM   #12
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No indeed. He immediately fell under it's malign spell...doing murder to gain possession of it. Yet Bilbo had it for many years and gave it up with only momentary reluctance....Frodo had it for much less time but could not destroy it...
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Old 09-25-2004, 02:48 PM   #13
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We are steering slightly off topic, but let's get a few things straight here. The difference between Frodo's and Bilbo's situations is apparent. Bilbo gave up the Ring under less pressure than Frodo was under, and that includes when Frodo was at Bag End.

And Samwise was not immune to the Ring. Gimli would have been a logically good choice to bear the Ring with a Company to guide him, but I think the reasons Frodo was given the task are as follows; 1) he offered himself, and 2) the Wise, especially Gandalf, had that little voice in the head saying "Yes, go ahead with the Hobbit".
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Old 09-26-2004, 08:33 PM   #14
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I don't think there really is any logical choice for a person to take the ring into the depths of Mordor.

But maybe even though Gimli seems the most logical, he may not be. When Sauron made the rings, he had the dwarves in mind. He may not have succeeded in swaying the dwarved to begin with, but we don't know whether Gimli has the same resistance as his ancestors. However, when he made the rings he had no knowledge of Hobbits. Maybe that could be why the Hobbits tend to have this natural resistance. The Ring was designed to tap into a persons wants to sway them, yet the wants of the Hobbits are a type completely unknown to Sauron when he made the Ring.
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Old 09-27-2004, 03:22 PM   #15
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1420!

Eldar:
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But maybe even though Gimli seems the most logical, he may not be. When Sauron made the rings, he had the dwarves in mind. He may not have succeeded in swaying the dwarved to begin with, but we don't know whether Gimli has the same resistance as his ancestors.
Good point about Sauron making the one ring, but very few dwarves ever sided with Morgoth or Sauron, despite what tales of men say. That's why I like dwarves so much, because very few of them were ever swayed, or assisted, "evil." So, I think Gimli would have that same resistance as his past ancestors.

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However, when he made the rings he had no knowledge of Hobbits.
Very good point, I never thought of that before.
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Old 09-27-2004, 08:25 PM   #16
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Pipe Gimli bearing the Ring?

Heaven forbid! He would have killed Sméagol, then it's game over.

He wouldn't have the capacity to connect to Gollum's torments. Frodo did. The mercy formed from that connection was the key to Sauron's demise.
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Old 09-28-2004, 09:06 AM   #17
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......and that's why Gandalf was right!
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Old 09-28-2004, 03:02 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund
Heaven forbid! He would have killed Sméagol, then it's game over.

He wouldn't have the capacity to connect to Gollum's torments. Frodo did. The mercy formed from that connection was the key to Sauron's demise.
Actually, Gollum trying to take the ring for himself led to Sauron's demise, not Frodo's connecting to Gollum's torments.
Also, if Gimli had the strength to resist the Ring, Gollum wasn't needed. Remember, Thror, his kinsman, was killed by Sauron. What better method for revenge then destroying the Ring, and therfore Sauron.
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Old 09-28-2004, 04:19 PM   #19
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We are steering slightly off topic, but let's get a few things straight here. The difference between Frodo's and Bilbo's situations is apparent. Bilbo gave up the Ring under less pressure than Frodo was under, and that includes when Frodo was at Bag End.
Not just situations, but also location and Sauron's strength at the time. When Bilbo had to give it up, Sauron was not as strong as he was at the end of the war, while Sauron's strength was much greater right before the end. Also, Frodo was in the Mountain of Fire, smack dab in the middle of Mordor, not to mention much closer to Sauron. The Ring's whisperings were stronger and could influence his actions greater there. Think about it: Isildur stood there, all those years ago, right after Sauron's physical form was defeated, too. What did he do? He claimed it. And he held it for what? A couple of minute? An hour?
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Old 09-28-2004, 04:46 PM   #20
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But the men who held the 9 were imeadiately corrupted, the dwarves who held the 7 never where. A dwarf is made of stronger stuff then a human.
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Old 09-29-2004, 07:58 AM   #21
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But Zebedee, surely you agree that Frodo's mercy was necessary. Gimli would have killed Gollum long before they got anywhere near Mount Doom. Gollum was the essential piece in the puzzle of how to destroy the Ring. No-one could have willingly thrown the Ring into the Fire and that's why Gollum was needed.
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:45 PM   #22
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1420!

I agree Eomer, Gollum served a big purpose to the success of the quest. First off he was there guide, who know's how long Frodo would have been stuck in Emyn Muil, and plus Gollum found a way through the dead marshes, and knew a secret way into Mordor. Also, Gollum, the HERO of MIDDLE-EARTH! No, I didn't studder, I said HERO, for he was the one that put the ring in the fire (eventhough unintentionally).

Also, a thing to understand about the ring. The ring offers everyone's deepest desires, makes them see what they want most. For example, Galadriel wanted to overthrow Sauron, so the Ring made her see herself, taking the ring and using it to bring down Sauron. To Gollum it was a "present" to him, this little "precious" ring that could make him "disappear." There are some who can resist what the ring has to offer (Galadriel, Gandalf, Sam, Faramir) and there are those who can't (Isildur, Boromir, Gollum). So, it also depends upon that "will" of the person, depends upon if they give in to the Ring's "offer" or if they are able to say, no. I believe eventually EVERYONE, would give in to the ring, there are some who can resist more then others, but EVERYONE (with the exclusion of Bombadil) would have done what Frodo did, if he/she was stuck in Frodo's place.
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:24 PM   #23
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In addition to what Boromir has said, if Gimli made it to Sammath Naur, even he wouldn't be able to give up the Ring and if he already killed Gollum (as Nil said) then there goes the Quest. Without Gollum, Middle-Earth would have been doomed, as no-one (in Middle-Earth)- except Bombadil, as Boromir said could give up the Ring in the heart of Sauron's domain-

Quote:
'Yes' said Frodo. 'But do you remember Gandalf's words: Even Gollum may have something yet to do? But for him, Sam, I could not have destroyed the Ring. The Quest would have been in vain, even at the bitter end. So let us forgive him! For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over. I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam.'
So here we see how important the connection formed between Frodo and Gollum really is- if Gimli was in Frodo's position, he would not have the ability or empathy to connect with Gollum (despite being a Ringbearer), which I think could only be found in a hobbit, thus he would have probably not have given Gollum any chances and the Ring would have been captured. Or the reverse- Gollum may have slain Gimli in anger and revenge; look at his attitude towards Frodo's kindness and his attitude towards Sam's suspicion. Gimli, I believe, would have been inclined to treat Gollum like Sam, and thus no bond of understanding between Ringbearers would have been forged.

There is no question that Gimli would have succumbed to the temptation of the Ring in Sammath Naur. Let me give two quotes to help explain why-

Quote:
At first he could see nothing. In his great need he drew out once more the phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold in his trembling hand and threw no light into that stifling dark. He was come to the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-Earth; all other powers were here subdued.
The 'darkness' of Sauron's ancient forge must be pretty powerful, if something that shines with the light of a Silmaril cannot light up his forge. Equally, I believe that the 'all other powers were here subdued' quote applies to the mental will of those in Orodruin and their capacity to overcome Sauron's will.

Quote:
But that he [Sauron] never contemplated or feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was undissolubl in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made- and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also, so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away or neglect it.
-The Letters of J.R.R. Tokien (No. 131)
I think that this dispells any doubt about whether Gimli would have become corrupted by the Ring or not- if Sauron himself couldn't destroy it, then I'm pretty sure Gimli wouldn't be able to also. In answer to your original question, Zebedee, the One Ring was much more powerful than the 7 Dwarf Rings and had a greater potential to corrupt- so yes, sooner or later, the Ring would inevitably corrupt Gimli; even if it took so long that it corrupted him in Sammath Naur, the heart of Sauron's realm.
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Old 09-30-2004, 07:42 PM   #24
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Thank you, Fingolfin II. If Tolkien said it, then Gimli would be corrupted.
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