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Old 03-21-2011, 04:44 PM   #1
Paradus
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Valar and Maia abilities?

Greetings everyone.

My knowledge on the maia and valar is a little hazy but from what I know they are immortal, have divine powers and abilities but can't create, only Eru can.

Know I'm curious what kind of powers could they have?

-The Istari, though restricted when sent to middle-earth had divine powers
I.e, gandalf's fire and light, saruman's voice, Radagast's communication of beasts and the like.

-Ulmo had power over the sea I know that.

-Melkor threw discord and mockery on Eru's creations, i.e orcs, balrogs, trolls etc.

-The valar gave additional life to the numenorians.

What other powers could the maia and valar have I wonder?

-Powers i.e: Healing, Lightning summon, enhanced physical strength and speed, earth shattering, telekinesis, flight, continental shifting, cursing, necromancy etc.

cheers.
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:03 PM   #2
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Well, each one has his/her own specific abilities, in addition to the power that they all posess. For example, Este can heal from weariness, Vana makes flowers bloom by looking at them (or mybe she doesn't make them, they just do.... I dunno).

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Originally Posted by Paradus
...but can't create, only Eru can.
I'd say yes but also no. Eru is the ultimate source of creation, but the Valar made Arda. It's possible that Eru created al material, and the Valar just "made it tidy", but it's also possible that for that time period, they could actually create something out of the Imperishable Flame. I don't know. Maybe not. I'm too confused myself to answer properly.



Generally, though, they have the same power as Eruhini, except magnified. In a way, they are Eruhini's older siblings. They are superhuman only to a small extent.
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:06 PM   #3
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They can create: Yavanna created all the plants and animals.

Far as I am sure, Melkor threw discord over the Music. The orcs are twisted elves. Balrogs and Dragons were also created by Yavanna I think.

The Istari are Maia.
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:19 PM   #4
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Balrogs and Dragons were also created by Yavanna I think.
I'm not sure about dragons, but Balrogs are maiar that Melkor corrupted.

Interesting point about dragons - who created them? Glaurung is called the father of dragons, and he didn't appear until Dagor Aglareb, if I'm not mistaken. But Morgoth coudn't have created him. Maybe he crossed a balrog with a lizzard and magnified the result a few times.

I wonder why/how/*I can't find the right word* did Eru give animals the ability to think and move on their own, just like Eruhini (except on a lesser scale)?
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:35 PM   #5
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I think the whole question has a bit too much of a superhero/comic book presumption to it... Speaking of "powers" in the plural sense, and then the list of "Powers i.e: Healing, Lightning summon, enhanced physical strength and speed, earth shattering, telekinesis, flight, continental shifting, cursing, necromancy etc.," while probably not intended to put me in such a mindset has me picturing Oromė as SuperElf, and Valinor as Gothamirė City, Home of the Doom of the Valar's Justice League...

It's a bit of a nitpicky point, but I think it's a pivotal little point: the Ainur (Valar and Maiar) are not super-powered aliens from planet Arda, but they are gods. Even with the Ainulindalė ever present to remind us of the monotheism behind the Valar, the fact is that the Valar are patterned on the pantheons of pagan gods. In this light, I think that a comparison to the power of the Greek or Norse gods is applicable--"power", I would say, not "powers."

After all, it's not that Gandalf has high scores in fireball casting, medium scores in understanding animal languages and telepathy, and poor-to-no levels of healer magic. On the contrary, Gandalf is, simply, powerful, with an affinity for things involving fire. The reason, I think why it is so hard to get a fix on exactly what he can do as a wizard is because his magic isn't supposed to be a set of specific powers, but because he is ultimately a semi-divine being.

Of course, the Istari are a special case, and as Maiar incarnated in human bodies, they come a lot closer to "super-powered humans" than the Valar do.
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:48 PM   #6
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Good point, Formy! I was thinking along similar lines about the "powers vs power", as you put it, but didn't know how to express it.
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Old 04-10-2011, 08:33 PM   #7
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I've always found it interesting how Tolkien's use of "power" and "magic" are pretty vaguely described in most of Tolkien's works.

That being said, I think it's a lot easier to frame the power of the Valar and Maiar as a more innate kind of magic, as opposed to prescribing the abilities of the two groups to a set of defined skills.

Just my two cents, Cheers!
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:41 AM   #8
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Those scruffy Dwarves

It seems that the Valar had a limited power to create a "form" of life, but not "sentient life". The completion of life and its imbuing of sentience and individual spirit and initiative is Eru's prerogative, as exampled by the creation of Dwarves through the presumption of Aule. The book says that they moved and resembled the living while Aule's will was bent upon them, but that they stood idle when his attention was away. Upon Aule's prayer, Eru Iluvatar gave them complete sentience and volition.

The fact that there were sentient trees, animals, and other such non-humanoid life, therefore, appears to be life "sanctioned" by Eru, and not purely the creation of their respective Valar. In other words, they were "authorized life" to whom Eru gave a spark of existence upon their creation by his children the Ainur.

Orcs and Trolls, were a "twisting" of existing life by Morgoth and crew. Balrogs were the seduced Maiar spirits of Fire. And such creatures as dragons and giant spiders were the horrid manifestation of "other" Maiar life not in the fold of the original Valinorean hosts. So there is a variety of "Life", as it were, but none were truly the pure creation of the Valar, since they were given no such authority and prerogatives by Eru.

Even when "singing" Middle-Earth into being, they marveled at the vision that later unfolded after their tune, each being but a part of the whole as Eru gave them their specific inclinations. Therefore it seems likely that, while they had the power to create, they didn't have a clue what they were creating, and that Eru gave each segment it's life as it was being sung. So the initiative for life always rests within Eru.
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradus View Post
Greetings everyone.

My knowledge on the maia and valar is a little hazy but from what I know they are immortal, have divine powers and abilities but can't create, only Eru can.

Know I'm curious what kind of powers could they have?

-The Istari, though restricted when sent to middle-earth had divine powers
I.e, gandalf's fire and light, saruman's voice, Radagast's communication of beasts and the like.

-Ulmo had power over the sea I know that.

-Melkor threw discord and mockery on Eru's creations, i.e orcs, balrogs, trolls etc.

-The valar gave additional life to the numenorians.

What other powers could the maia and valar have I wonder?

-Powers i.e: Healing, Lightning summon, enhanced physical strength and speed, earth shattering, telekinesis, flight, continental shifting, cursing, necromancy etc.

cheers.
I like this thread.

It's tempting to get concrete when thinking about the Powers. I think all the ideas put down are well within their purview, but as Makers of Arda, they manifested much more. The creation of matter--minerals, elements and so on, but then of Life. Yavanna with the Kelvar and the Olvar.

Though, another theme in the mythology is the feats of a lifetime, as one-off manifestations of their 'wyrd'. Feanor and the Silmarils, was the Elf-y equivalent. Tolkien tended to use the word 'assay' about this area.

Each of the Valar, I suspect, had one such manifestation. Yavanna's was The Two Trees. During these, some part of their essence appears to have gone into the creation. Even Melkor and Sauron created events and artefacts into which they imbued a part of their essence. Melian and her Girdle in Doriath appears to have been another.

When I attempt to get a handle on the area in order to extract some underlying dimensions, I keep returning to the metaphysical dimensions for the really interesting stuff. For example, Elves and The Spirit World. Whoever crafted the metaphysical dimensions associated with the Straight Road? What's this 'otherworldyness' we see Glorfindel transition into? What is this 'Wraith' equivalent dimension of shadows? How is 'reality' itself organised? Mandos and his halls for all the Dead? Where are The Forgotten Caves (where the Ar Pharazon and co are imprisoned until The Second Making)? How is The Void's existence occurring in context to Arda?

But, it's the Flame Imperishable, Ea, that is the most intriguing. Something that is beyond light, but often attributed with 'living' radiance (the Phial and The Silmarils, the Sun and the Moon).

Then, even given all of that--one of the things The Powers just never were able to do: they were the *worst* at being able to see a lie. There was no-one in Arda who really ever had the capacity to read a mind, or a soul, infallibly. In fact, all the ruin in Middle Earth seems attributable to this one major pitfall.....

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Old 05-11-2014, 12:41 PM   #10
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Then, even given all of that--one of the things The Powers just never were able to do: they were the *worst* at being able to see a lie. There was no-one in Arda who really ever had the capacity to read a mind, or a soul, infallibly. In fact, all the ruin in Middle Earth seems attributable to this one major pitfall.....
Well, I would clarify that idea to say that the Valar had great difficulty detecting deception because that act was in itself negative. It was said of Manwė that he did not comprehend Melkor's devotion to evil because Manwė himself was free from it. I think the same could be said of the other Valar. And yes, though that lack of insight led to their being deceived, I see it as also being a saving grace in that none of them followed Melkor into evil, turning away from their assigned duty of "administering" Arda for the One.
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:37 PM   #11
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Well, I would clarify that idea to say that the Valar had great difficulty detecting deception because that act was in itself negative. It was said of Manwė that he did not comprehend Melkor's devotion to evil because Manwė himself was free from it. I think the same could be said of the other Valar. And yes, though that lack of insight led to their being deceived, I see it as also being a saving grace in that none of them followed Melkor into evil, turning away from their assigned duty of "administering" Arda for the One.
Hey there Inziladun,

I take your point. I'd forgotten that take on truth-speaking, and had some flashes of remembrance as I read your post, and it makes sense when I think about it. It's an interesting feature of the position about evil, the way it's put in the mythology. Evil-see-evil-do, so good-see-good-do, and no overlap.

The subject of evil, in one sense, as Tolkien writes about it, is a big area. I'd love to hear your thoughts: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18738 where I'm looking at this aspect of Eru's offspring.

If Eru made the Valar--and Melkor.....yadda yadda (see the URL). I've given thought to how Manwe's great sight might be adapted to this, without his manifestation of evil. As a being who exists in a contrast to Melkor, then there are many ideas about how Manwe's Sight and how to extend that.

I speak of a Power I call 'unsight' (I realise this is not cannon Tolkien--but, it's where I went thinking about Manwe and his 'not seeing' Melkor).....

cheers
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Old 05-12-2014, 02:50 AM   #12
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Each valar have their own powers

-manwe is leader of the valar,and a such,highest in authority,but not in power.he is also the king of the skies,and(i think)can command wind and cloud.

-aule,he specialised in crafting,and he is very similar to eru in term of understanding eru's way.he also can make living beings,but need eru to breathe life to them for them to be fully alive.

-yavanna can control the forest,and living things.

-tulkas is a stomping machine,being able to curbstomp melkor with ease.

- ulmo can control the seas,and every body of water that connected to the sea.

-namo, i know nothing abut him.

-the maiar follow their valar so they have similar power only lesser.
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Old 05-12-2014, 04:04 AM   #13
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This is all covered in the Valaquenta; example:

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Nįmo the elder dwells in Mandos, which is westward in Valinor. He is the keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilśvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his Judgements only at the bidding of Manwė.
But you're not going to find a list of "powers" like in a D&D manual, if that's what you're looking for.
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Old 05-12-2014, 05:18 AM   #14
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Well, I would clarify that idea to say that the Valar had great difficulty detecting deception because that act was in itself negative.
We can also observe these remarks from the second part of "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion" (Section VII "Myths Transformed" from Morgoth's Ring):
"No one, not even one of the Valar, can read the mind other other 'equal beings': that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection."

Regarding the powers and abilities of the Valar, we might also take note of this comment from Section VI of "Myths Transformed" regarding Melkor:
"He was to make/devise/begin; Manwė (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete." Before his descent into evil, Melkor was intended by Eru as an initiator. We can see how this was corrupted into impatience, and in Morgoth's own hierarchy Sauron took on a role similar to that which Eru intended for Manwė, completing projects Morgoth could not "in the furious haste of his malice."
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Old 05-12-2014, 07:01 AM   #15
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regarding Melkor:
"He was to make/devise/begin; Manwė (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete."
It's just struck me that this is actually an interesting parallel with the roles of Elves and Men.
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Old 05-17-2014, 02:49 PM   #16
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I think another of Gandalf's powers was to raise the spirits and resolve of those he moved among. I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the section on the Maia in the Silmarillion (although it refers to him by his Maia name, Olorin).
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:07 PM   #17
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This is a really good thread guys.
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:52 PM   #18
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Know I'm curious what kind of powers could they have?
The Silmarillion says, "ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he wills" [Ainulindalė, p. 3] It is also said that they are called the Valar, "the Powers of the World", since "their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it forever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs." [p.10] We have seen Aulė create Dwarves but they could only be as automatons as far as he could go with them. When the Valar put on raiment they too like Elves suffer to some degree with thought transmission since it has to pass through the raiment.
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Old 05-22-2014, 07:51 PM   #19
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We can also observe these remarks from the second part of "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion" (Section VII "Myths Transformed" from Morgoth's Ring):
"No one, not even one of the Valar, can read the mind other other 'equal beings': that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection."
About whether or not scanning for deception, is essentially a 'negative' event, I have pondered this. For beings that do not see the potential for the dark side in their own creations, then, it is the failure to scan for deception and vulnerability that is the act of inadvertently disguised evil. Said another way, the need to see the world as pure, because of one's own need for bathing in one's own creations and beauty, is then, perilously lazy and undisciplined. It is the act that inadvertently births evil by denial of evil.

Quote:
Regarding the powers and abilities of the Valar, we might also take note of this comment from Section VI of "Myths Transformed" regarding Melkor:
"He was to make/devise/begin; Manwė (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete." Before his descent into evil, Melkor was intended by Eru as an initiator. We can see how this was corrupted into impatience, and in Morgoth's own hierarchy Sauron took on a role similar to that which Eru intended for Manwė, completing projects Morgoth could not "in the furious haste of his malice."
I see, though, that Eru's will was not entirely undone or [not] not (double not) respected in regards to Morgoth and Sauron. [And a double 'not' has not the same implications as its inverse 'to be respected'. The former is 'the least worst choice of two seemingly ill choices' compared to the situation where one looks for 'the best choice']. In Morgoth's inverted universe, his variation on 'initiator', was begun by providing the inadvertent vigilance to the Valar to take more heed of their own creative acts. He forces the Valar to look at themselves by initiating destruction of their works. Melkor, by subversion, is then, the eternal Vala acting, in an inadvertent, unconscious role of self-sacrifice. For, all his works were initiating of an unmaking of works of the Valar, in order to, through Melkor's own vanity, provide a vanity mirror for the Valar, so they could see where their own vanity had influenced their own creations. As such, Melkor, the unconscious initiator of the Valar to take heed and rework their acts of mastery, after having them unmade sufficient times, such that their final works, (The Second Making in the Second Prophesy of Mandos) could be a world where more humility, and appreciation that all things are not always what they seem.

It is not entirely obvious how there is temporal event (effect to precede cause), where Melkor's works, basically, take effect by 'running time backwards'. If you move the 'starting point' about 'creation', to an unmaking of 'all there is', then Melkor's role and will, is effected through what was inspired in the Valar, through Melkor's acts.

He is, in the end, the pariah of creation, and bearer of all the suffering he manifested. I suspect Eru would, in a second making, manifest something significant with this, through a fusion of Melkor with some kind of 'flow' or energetic dead lock, to all other Valar, where they are forced into a symbiotic working relationship.

Greed dead locks--I call this unsight. Each expression of self-sacrifice must reconcile its greed-anti-self into an inverted flow of greed, such that greed results in birth and where greed is giving. This paradox of inter-relationships is easy to develop in a correction of the Valar and the way their consciousness is expressed.

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Old 05-23-2014, 12:00 AM   #20
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About whether or not scanning for deception, is essentially a 'negative' event, I have pondered this. For beings that do not see the potential for the dark side in their own creations, then, it is the failure to scan for deception and vulnerability that is the act of inadvertently disguised evil. Said another way, the need to see the world as pure, because of one's own need for bathing in one's own creations and beauty, is then, perilously lazy and undisciplined. It is the act that inadvertently births evil by denial of evil.
The most obvious example, and the one to which I assume you are referring, is Manwė failing to perceive the continuing evil in Melkor after his imprisonment. Isn't the fault with Melkor for dissembling his intentions? I don't see Manwė as someone who (intentionally or otherwise) is trying to revel in some self-satisfied perception of the world's goodness. I see a being capable of great love who wishes for his brother to be redeemed, and who has faith in Eru that good will out. I'm not sure what example you're referring to, though, when you talk about "beings that do not see the potential for the dark side in their own creations."

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I see, though, that Eru's will was not entirely undone or [not] not (double not) respected in regards to Morgoth and Sauron. [And a double 'not' has not the same implications as its inverse 'to be respected'. The former is 'the least worst choice of two seemingly ill choices' compared to the situation where one looks for 'the best choice']. In Morgoth's inverted universe, his variation on 'initiator', was begun by providing the inadvertent vigilance to the Valar to take more heed of their own creative acts.
Which is because Eru incorporates all things, good or evil, into the music, and from evil greater, unforeseen good arises, which is why Arda Healed would be a greater thing than Arda Unmarred. It would also be a different thing, hence there is no need for time to "run backwards." Arda Unmarred is not the same thing as Arda Healed. The latter proceeds from the former via Arda Marred (the intermediary stage). I assume I'm interpreting your rather complex thought processes correctly in providing that response...
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:18 AM   #21
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Although that is the most obvious example, it is one in a repetitious cycle. The Noldor, most appreciably, replicate the lapse in what I term "UN"sight--unsight. Unsight is the capacity of a being to discern how to position a greed-dead-lock in their crafting of items (The Rings), which would have prevented the disaster of the Mirdain. The Elves had very poorly developed Unsight--what an Elvish Creation looks like to The Corruptor.

Each creation by a being seemingly 'good' casts a shadow. Sauron and Melkor most cleverly (and stupidly) understood this. For example, I suspect that Sauron figured out what the Shadow side of the Elvish Spiritual World would be like in the metaphysical sense (Spectres, Shades, Wights and so on). This would seem to be that metaphysical dimension where life *runs out* from that plane, and back into the Void--the other way around. C.f. The Flame Imperishable - Life - From The Void. As such, Melkor's and Sauron's creations - discerned by Unsight - run the system the other way around. Metaphysical energy in the inverse, but in an inverse relationship to the Void when compared to life - The Two Trees, the Silmarils, etc.

So -- myy post looks more closely at what it means that a Vala such as Manwe was not, immediately, able to discern a way to work with Melkor. Or another way--the Valar were blind to the shadow relationships of their works with creation. And so, this is a Vanity. For, creators have the responsibility of knowing how their works look in the Shadow World. Without that Knowing, they create gross vulnerabilities in everything they create.

Another way to try to get the point across is that the Valar needed Melkor's gross, overt Vanity (to defile Eru's creations as toys), in order to see the Shadow Side of the Valar's denied Vanity. Melkor and Manwe are twin mirror image opposites. Two faces of existence, and the one cannot exist in some relationship with[out] the other.

However, how the relationship is manifested, does come down to the manner, mode, style and nature of consciousness, and to a preparedness to look at Melkor's inverse universe, without sacrificing the Flame Imperishable...

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Old 05-23-2014, 06:56 AM   #22
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@Zigur

Arda healed is, in this casting, compared to Arda unmarred is a good analogy. But is not quite the analogy, because in The Second Making, there is an expected reorganisation of The Powers, in a very fundamental sense, to prevent repetition of vulnerabilities the powers built into reality.

To elucidate, it's not "Manwe versus Melkor", in a divisionist casting of 'good and evil', but instead Manwe (The Flame Imperishable) conjoined to Melkor (The Flame Imperishable running in its Inverse--UNcreation--deadlock.

They have to establish means of satisfying seemingly opposed goals. The paradoxical joining of the two requires that seeming opposites coexist in reconciliation of opposites in all expressions of creation. I do not believe that simply 'teaching' Melkor how to 'behave' would ever be fruitful.

One way around the problem is have Melkor existing in a conjoined Universe where time always runs backwards. So, all his marring runs backwards--from the end of time to its beginning. And so, Manwe and Melkor handball each others manifestations in inverse time flow.

Another way around the problem is to establish creations where what is selflessness to one Vala *is* selfishness to the other. For example, the greed of a baby is what is behind the suckling of its mother's breast, but to the mother, her baby's healthy feeding greed is an expression of her love.....

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Old 05-23-2014, 07:44 AM   #23
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Arda healed is, in this casting, compared to Arda unmarred is a good analogy. But is not quite the analogy, because in The Second Making, there is an expected reorganisation of The Powers, in a very fundamental sense, to prevent repetition of vulnerabilities the powers built into reality.
According to whom, exactly? Or is this a theory of your own invention? Evil originated with Melkor. In a world in which Eru has incorporated the evil of Melkor to produce greater good, what likelihood is there of repetition? There is no more evil. It has become good.

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To elucidate, it's not "Manwe versus Melkor", in a divisionist casting of 'good and evil', but instead Manwe (The Flame Imperishable) conjoined to Melkor (The Flame Imperishable running in its Inverse--UNcreation--deadlock.
I don't think this dualistic interpretation is very consistent with the established understanding of Good and Evil according to Professor Tolkien's account. Melkor wanted to destroy, but he was not an "uncreative" force by nature or power. He was originally an initiator and later merely a corruptive force, and it was not within his power to even annihilate matter: "even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed' independent of his own mind, and a world in potential." Good and evil were not "equal and opposite" Newtonian forces in Arda or something like that.

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One way around the problem is have Melkor existing in a conjoined Universe where time always runs backwards. So, all his marring runs backwards--from the end of time to its beginning. And so, Manwe and Melkor handball each others manifestations in inverse time flow.
I also don't find this scenario to be especially likely. For reasons I've already stated, I don't think Melkor ever existed in the way you describe, either in the mind of Eru or as an evil being.

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Another way around the problem is to establish creations where what is selflessness to one Vala *is* selfishness to the other.
I don't believe this kind of moral reversibility is consistent with Professor Tolkien's view. According to Professor Tolkien's metaphysics, if Melkor believed the Valar were evil, then he was wrong. He was evil.

I am not just making up "Arda Healed" incidentally, it's actually a concept explained in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. I assume we can perceive Finrod's understanding of the matter to be reasonably reliable. I apologise if any of what I am saying is not strictly relevant but I'm finding this theory of yours quite difficult to understand and am struggling to see much substantiation for it in the texts.
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Old 05-23-2014, 06:14 PM   #24
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It's not all about Professor Tolkien's view as it was captured to that critical point when he died. There is more to this than meets the eye. In part, it's also about where the imagination roams when one reviews the mythology and looks at Arda as the meandering river of wishful thinking takes you--'what would it have taken for the Two Trees to have survived" "why couldn't they figure out how to work with Melkor". Having said that--consider what my work does extend--and where speculation does have a place, and what we cannot know, is what principles of care would go into the Second Making.

The Second Prophesy of Mandos hints at a number of ideas.. We know from Tolkien's divisionist thinking in how he bifurcated good and evil that there were numerous points of great suffering in Arda caused by Melkorian and Sauronic thinking. Sauron's Necromancy (and how he made Spiritual Planes of unlife, death, fear an life-bleeding) are, I would expect, rents in reality fabric that would be attended to in the Second Making.

My adaptation of the terms unsight, unlife and so on, are just extensions of what Tolkien did do so prolifically. Ungoliant's unlight (was not just darkness). Feanor and Galadriel as unfriends. Ungoliant is another tantalising hint at what rents in reality and metaphysical planes Melkor's monsters made. Unlight was some kind of syphoning of light, or some kind of event horizon where things were, once drawn into, were lost for all of time. Presumably, for example, Ungoliant swelled from the gobbling up of the Light of Teleperion and Laurelin and that she holds or houses something in that bottomless well waiting to be -- inversely manifested and flushed right on out. To put this another way, if an inverse of a 'good' thing is an 'evil' thing, then what's an inverse of an already inverted, perverted thing? Presumably, there is a way, from Eru's point of view, of applying an inverse to Ungoliant's Unlight.

Presumably, much as at The End of Time (Second Prophesy stuff) where all things 'lost to the end of time' are kept, stored, or wherever they 'go', as that applied to things of The Flame Imperishable, equally, unlight has some kind of role in any reformulation--in a repair or revision of Arda's fabric.

We will never know, I suppose, what the evolution of the mythology would have entailed.

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Old 05-23-2014, 06:24 PM   #25
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...about Evil as a singularity, I don't think that is possible without splitting the mind in two in the Tolkien Universe. So, in my earlier posts, I hint at the moral culpability of the Valar, by their refusal to see the shadow side of their own creations. This was what I termed the inadvertent evil that is borne of a basking in one's own beauty, truth and creations, without heed for how such things look to their shadow side (with unsight). Melkor, in his great and overt Vanity, is then a Vanity Mirror for the Valar, who denied (and did not resolve) their own Vanity in so much of their creations, but to their great peril. Humility resolves Vanity. Only Nienna had that.

As such, Melkor, as initiator (in a revised role of the context of 'initiator') unmakes his bretheren's creations enough times such that the Valar do, indeed, grow aware of their fallibility, and Vanity. So, Melkor does have an important place in Arda, and I suspect Eru knew this--the Second Great Music and then the Third Theme. I believe Eru placed Melkor into Creation knowing what he was going to do. Nienna, the perpetually weeping Maia who spared no tears for any part of creation, looks to Middle Earth, and she, alone of them all, has sufficient humility to sit with the marring of Arda and grieve for it.

The rest of the Valar, to be honest, do remain fairly much entrenched in denial. Shifting them to compassion is pretty difficult and takes a tumultuous event. They, in the end, are bound to their own fates, and know that any further tampering with reality would achieve naught. For, they never solved the problem of evil, and how to manifest a creation without embedding their creations, inadvertently, with great vulnerabilities implicit in Arda's reality fabric. Elves--Orcs (beings that are bodily antithetical), Elves--Nazgul (spiritually antithetical as life and unlife), The Three Rings (Extending the Flame Imperishable, just to extend the Unlife of the Wraith Realm, by proportion).

A repair in the Second Making would apply what I term a greed-dead-lock to protect a creation....

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Old 05-23-2014, 09:11 PM   #26
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The rest of the Valar, to be honest, do remain fairly much entrenched in denial. Shifting them to compassion is pretty difficult and takes a tumultuous event.
Is this true? Manwė may have been capable of believing that Melkor was rehabilitated, but "Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by." Now in Tulkas' case this may have derived from sheer mistrust, but Ulmo specifically was "not deceived" - but mighty as he was (and he was mighty indeed among the Valar, second only to the Elder King himself among the male Valar) he had to obey the judgement of Manwė "for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel."
I actually wanted to talk about Ulmo, because he seems to be quite compassionate, giving advice to Turgon and Tuor. He was also the leader of those Valar who counselled against the Eldar being brought (or rather invited) to Aman - and he definitely had a point there.
Incidentally, Manwė was not blind. As is stated in Morgoth's Ring (and I quoted in a recent thread) he knew that letting the Noldor fight Morgoth would cause Morgoth to waste his power until he was weakened to the point where he could be dealt with in a way that would not risk the destruction of Arda. The Valar did not lack compassion - they actually avoided fighting Melkor because that was the lesser of two evils: wait, and allow Melkor to become manageable, or go to battle, and risk Arda being destroyed and the death of all Eru's children.
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they never solved the problem of evil, and how to manifest a creation without embedding their creations, inadvertently, with great vulnerabilities implicit in Arda's reality fabric
But the Valar were not "creators", only "makers" - they had no control over the Flame Imperishable - and since everything in Arda had a Morgoth-element they had no choice but to work within those limits. Also, they could not "solve" the problem of evil for two reasons: 1) because they lacked the power to do so (not because they were too incompetent) and 2) because Eru had already solved it: "Arda Healed," which would arrive in the fullness of time. Professor Tolkien observes that "no created thng or being in Arda, or in all Eä, was powerful enough to counteract or heal Evil: that is to subdue Melkor (in his present person, reduced though that was) and the Evil that he had dissipated and sent out from himself into the very structure of the world. Only Eru himself cold do this."
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I believe Eru placed Melkor into Creation knowing what he was going to do. Nienna, the perpetually weeping Maia who spared no tears for any part of creation, looks to Middle Earth, and she, alone of them all, has sufficient humility to sit with the marring of Arda and grieve for it.
Eru permitted Melkor into creation, but I do not believe he placed him there with the intention of having Melkor commit evil even with the belief that it would bring about good. I believe Eru gave him the choice. He reconciles the evil, but I don't think he intentionally enables it. Regarding Nienna (who is a Vala, by the way, not a Maia) her tears are compassionate yes, but isn't the message of so much of Professor Tolkien's work that we should do what we can against evil without the expectation of managing to completely overcome it? This was of course something the Valar had to learn, and is the attitude embodied in Gandalf, who learned compassion from Nienna.

My point is I think the Evil of Melkor could be, and was, reconciled to Eä in order to improve it, but I don't believe it was part of a necessary dynamism of metaphysical forces, at least not in this dualistic way. Your theories are interesting but I think they're largely precluded by a lot of the content of Morgoth's Ring which I heartily recommend reading in full for a more complete understanding of Professor Tolkien's theodicy (the technical term for answering the problem of evil).
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Old 05-24-2014, 01:45 AM   #27
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The rest of the Valar, to be honest, do remain fairly much entrenched in denial. Shifting them to compassion is pretty difficult and takes a tumultuous event.

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Is this true? Manwė may have been capable of believing that Melkor was rehabilitated, but "Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by." Now in Tulkas' case this may have derived from sheer mistrust, but Ulmo specifically was "not deceived" - but mighty as he was (and he was mighty indeed among the Valar, second only to the Elder King himself among the male Valar) he had to obey the judgement of Manwė "for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel."
When I wrote my categorical statement, I had a feeling it would be tackled (rightly so) for being too absolute. Of course, there are indications of the opposite of what I'm positing, where I rank them an 'in denial' on a spectrum of relative blindness.

But, the denial I write about is about the blindness to their own Vanity. Tulkas's rage, and Ulmo's antipathy are precisely two examples of the critical indications of denial I point out. E.g. Methinks he doth protest too much. The refusal to accept that they were present during the Ainulindale, at which time, Melkor's disharmony and repetitious defiance were promulgated into Eru's orchestrations. Should it not have been entirely clear, before their music was made manifest in Arda in the Vision Illuvatar brought forth, that Melkor's presence was somehow significant. Eru did not send Melkor into Arda from The Void, 'corrected'.

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I actually wanted to talk about Ulmo, because he seems to be quite compassionate, giving advice to Turgon and Tuor. He was also the leader of those Valar who counselled against the Eldar being brought (or rather invited) to Aman - and he definitely had a point there.
Yes, Ulmo was more appreciably helpful in The First Age, though his influence retreated (as his power was withdrawn from Rivers and Streams).

No-one much pays much heed to Nienna, though. She is the embodiment of compassion, which is her liberal, perpetual tears, and her Home overlooks Middle Earth, where, from time to time, others of her Kind join her. I do not imagine that she would withhold tears about Melkor, Sauron and all the Fallen, either, and suspect that her wisdom would embody, or extend means of deepening understanding beyond the generalist wisdom where "Melkor as the Vala pinup boi and catchall for the blame game". So, I'm presenting an alternative view to the reductionists' position and the categorical posturing of "Melkor is All Evil and That is Bad". Perhaps Evil serves Illuvatar's final purpose, in time to come, in ways the Valar are not far-seeing enough to discern. Their Vanity and lack of Unsight.

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Incidentally, Manwė was not blind. As is stated in Morgoth's Ring (and I quoted in a recent thread) he knew that letting the Noldor fight Morgoth would cause Morgoth to waste his power until he was weakened to the point where he could be dealt with in a way that would not risk the destruction of Arda. The Valar did not lack compassion - they actually avoided fighting Melkor because that was the lesser of two evils: wait, and allow Melkor to become manageable, or go to battle, and risk Arda being destroyed and the death of all Eru's children.
Compassion takes many forms, many of which the Valar deny as legitimate expressions of compassion. That's my first point: for example, avoiding the bringing of Arda to a terminal conclusion and endpoint is (arguably)--extending suffering--and an indulgence for those beings protected and shielded (The Hiding of Valinor), while Mandos prohibits the Firstborn's Return because of an Oath made in wrath. It's just all too unyielding! If The Elves could battle, five times with Morgoth with the limit of the power of Elvendom, and make as much headway as they did, I imagine that a partial fortification of Elvendom during the Noldor's struggle would not have broken Arda.

We also saw the partial deliberate breaking of the Earth with Numenor, when Ar Pharazon and co got swallowed up and holed up in the Caves of the Forgotten until the Last Battle, at which time, the breaking of Arda shall occur, before a Second Making.

Sometimes compassion means ending the existence of that which suffers, because of flaws in the design and making.

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Old 05-24-2014, 01:46 AM   #28
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But the Valar were not "creators", only "makers" - they had no control over the Flame Imperishable
Not quite true. They could channel the Flame Imperishable into their creations--Telperion, Laurelin, and even the Elves could manifest such 'metaphysical flows'--the Silmarils, the Phial of Galadriel, The Elessar and the Palantiri.

Further, it was Sauronic and Melkorian 'logic' that, I have guessed, manifested the Inverse of the Flame Imperishable--that UNflow of the Flame Imperishable in an inverted, mirror image opposite of the Flame Imperishable. Unlight. The Wraith Dimension. Necromancy. Unlife of the Ringwraiths. Barrow Wights.

If I cast my mind back to the Ainulindale, and our first glimpse of what Illuvatar manifested in the Flame Imperishable, it seems to me that this was some fathoming of a creative purpose, inside a Time-Bound Universe, in accordance with bringing forth something from The Void. I have wondered if Melkor gleaned of means of inverting this essence, by fracturing dimensions of the Spirit World, and then, regiging the system, so that his 'creations' (violations of Manwe-ian manifestations) return something to The Void (life-flow) whilst retaining an echo of sentience. Ringwraiths were not really living, yet had sinew somehow, and they seemed to drain life and somehow 'radiated' fear. Where did their lifeforce actually go? Back to the Void? In Manwe's Halls?

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Also, they could not "solve" the problem of evil for two reasons: 1) because they lacked the power to do so (not because they were too incompetent) and 2) because Eru had already solved it: "Arda Healed," which would arrive in the fullness of time.
Here, then, I bring my ideas back to another point. If you are capable of birthing the Sun, what insight do you lack, that you can't fathom Ungoliant's 'organisation' and use a collective effort (I mean, the Valar Combined had a great deal more power than Melkor) to 'flick the UNlight switch' and get her to EXPLODE, rather than SYPHON.

She did have a very fat, bulbous, belly - and it swelled I recall, after eating the light of the Two Trees.

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My point is I think the Evil of Melkor could be, and was, reconciled to Eä in order to improve it, but I don't believe it was part of a necessary dynamism [emphasis Ivriniel's] of metaphysical forces, at least not in this dualistic way. Your theories are interesting but I think they're largely precluded by a lot of the content of Morgoth's Ring which I heartily recommend reading in full for a more complete understanding of Professor Tolkien's theodicy (the technical term for answering the problem of evil).
Here, I don't need to rely on the word 'necessary' either. Creation is merely a manifestation of a being's purpose or drive or Song of Creation. So, I do see dynamism of metaphysical forces (and that's a really fantastic way to put it). Dynamism as the interplay of energy (the Flame Imperishable) with metaphysical dimensions conceived by beings on either side of the Good/Evil dualist position. Birthed from the Dynamism--tools for readying Arda for its next majestic manifestation. I imagine that there are ways of organising, deliberately, dynamic flow of what? essences? that are expressions of the Flame Imperishable....


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Old 05-24-2014, 10:32 AM   #29
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The refusal to accept that they were present during the Ainulindale, at which time, Melkor's disharmony and repetitious defiance were promulgated into Eru's orchestrations. Should it not have been entirely clear, before their music was made manifest in Arda in the Vision Illuvatar brought forth, that Melkor's presence was somehow significant.
A matter of faith, I suspect. The Valar must have accepted that Eru had a reason for permitting this to come to pass.

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So, I'm presenting an alternative view to the reductionists' position and the categorical posturing of "Melkor is All Evil and That is Bad". Perhaps Evil serves Illuvatar's final purpose, in time to come, in ways the Valar are not far-seeing enough to discern.
I'm going to have to use the word "necessary" again because the way I see it the concept of Arda Healed is evil serving Eru's final purpose without evil being necessary: "thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
You may consider is reductionist, but the fact is that in Eä Melkor was the only source of evil, and all evil that followed was the influence of his spirit permeated through all matter. That being said, we do receive evidence of inexplicable sufferings, for example:
"among the Eldar, even in Aman, the desire for marriage was not always fulfilled. Love was not always returned; and more than one might desire one other for spouse. Concerning this, the only cause by which sorrow entered the bliss of Aman, the Valar were in doubt. Some held that it came from the marring of Arda, and from the Shadow under which the Eldar awoke; for thence only (they said) comes grief or disorder. Some held that it came of love itself, and of the freedom of each fėa, and was a mystery of the nature of the Children of Eru"
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That's my first point: for example, avoiding the bringing of Arda to a terminal conclusion and endpoint is (arguably)--extending suffering
I think the issue is here that it wasn't the place of the Valar to decide the ultimate fate of Arda. That was for Eru only. They could have destroyed it, yes, but that would have been defiance of Eru's will. Destroying Arda would only perpetuate the evil of Melkor, not bring about Arda Healed. The destruction of Nśmenor is a perfect example, in fact. The Valar were not even willing to battle Men in that way, instead relinquishing authority to Eru. It was not their place.

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(I mean, the Valar Combined had a great deal more power than Melkor)
I'm afraid this is contradicted in the text. Melkor was more powerful than all of the other Ainur combined. That was part of his nature: "he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined." (Morgoth's Ring) Now of course Morgoth the person could be subdued. Melkor the Tyrant of Utumno, even, could be subdued. But that is not Melkor. Melkor is, to quote Professor Tolkien, "a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents." That's why the Valar cannot solve the problem of evil (although they did not need to - Eru had done it for them). Melkor was more powerful than all of them combined, and even when he was personally weakened his evil was still out there. No "eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda."
Moreover "the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda." So evidently the Valar saw the latter as impermissible. Why? Because their function, and the function of Manwė in particular, was to "govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested." They struggled in that role because of the power of Melkor. It was not in their power or authority to destroy Arda and thus make it impossible for the Children to exist, which was the only other means besides "Arda Healed" of stopping Melkor, but not considered to be a valid alternative.

I think the issue might be that you take a somewhat different view of good and evil than that taken by Professor Tolkien and that which is reflected in his texts, because I think your theory only really works if good and evil operate in a somewhat different way than they actually do in Eä. This may or may not be the "true" way they operate in the real world (if it's even meaningful to say so - metaphysics is, arguably, a somewhat outdated discipline in the "real world," as meaningful as it clearly is in Arda) but this is how good and evil operate in Eä and it probably also reflects how Professor Tolkien considered them to operate himself (albeit according to his real-world beliefs, obviously).

Anyone else should feel free to chip in their thoughts here, of course. I fear I'm rambling on excessively, but hopefully this discussion is setting minds in motion regarding a very interesting issue of Professor Tolkien's late writings. Perhaps his philosophical musings did get in the way of him completing The Silmarillion, but that was probably impossible anyway so I'm glad we've got what we've got.
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Old 05-24-2014, 02:31 PM   #30
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It is true that Melkor was the mightiest, "Ilśvatar spoke...Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor". [Sil., Ainulindalė, p. 6] This is mentioned many times throughout the Silmarillion.

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The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the world was in his beginning Melkor" [Valaquenta, p. 18]
It is also recalled that, "so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwė and all the Valar" [pp. 25-26].

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The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power)... in the early age of Arda he was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat. [MR. p. 390]
However, Melkor in his beginning is not the same as the Morgoth in the North of Beleriand. It is said in Morgoth's Ring, "Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power level with the Valar." [p. 390]

His power was at this point dispersed, so that instead of being concentrated in himself alone his servants had a share in it to the point where only with himself and his agents all-together could he come close to the power he once wielded. When he and Manwė come face to face we are shown how they both note the difference in Melkor, "Both are amazed: Manwė to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwė, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.... he is 'dispersed'." As you can see he was shocked to learn of the diminishment of himself as well. Perhaps among his servants he did not recognize it because compared to any one of them singly he was so much more powerful. But when he comes face to face with his peers and sees that he is lesser than Manwė this is crazy news. His agents the Valar could easily deal with and Morgoth now was more like to the Valar in power when they separated him from them.
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Old 05-24-2014, 03:28 PM   #31
William Cloud Hicklin
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I've always found it a helpful metaphor to think of Evil (= Melkor) in Arda as a drop of black ink in a glas of water: a core but concentrated globule of pure black, which gradually dissipates throughout the whole (cf. the phrase "the whole of Arda was Morgoth's Ring) until we get uniform grey (i.e. our own time).
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Old 05-24-2014, 04:28 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
I've always found it a helpful metaphor to think of Evil (= Melkor) in Arda as a drop of black ink in a glas of water: a core but concentrated globule of pure black, which gradually dissipates throughout the whole (cf. the phrase "the whole of Arda was Morgoth's Ring) until we get uniform grey (i.e. our own time).
Yet the grey is still a canvas upon which Ilśvatar paints.

Quote:
'And thou Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
The Silmarillon Ainulindalė

To me, that suggests that Ilśvatar knew full well what Melkor would do, and had made Melkor with that "flaw" of character for a purpose. That purpose is unstated directly, but Eru said the above words in the presence of the other Valar, and they would take it as an article of faith that, as the Eldar later explained to the Dśnedain in Nśmenor, Eru did not "plant to no purpose", and that while they were expected to do their best to try and counter Melkor's acts, if they failed they were not to worry or overextend their powers, or, more importantly, their authority in fighting him.
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Old 05-24-2014, 11:50 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Yet the grey is still a canvas upon which Ilśvatar paints.

The Silmarillon Ainulindalė

To me, that suggests that Ilśvatar knew full well what Melkor would do, and had made Melkor with that "flaw" of character for a purpose. That purpose is unstated directly, but Eru said the above words in the presence of the other Valar, and they would take it as an article of faith that, as the Eldar later explained to the Dśnedain in Nśmenor, Eru did not "plant to no purpose", and that while they were expected to do their best to try and counter Melkor's acts, if they failed they were not to worry or overextend their powers, or, more importantly, their authority in fighting him.
Exact-rr-y

@Zigur

Irrespective of idealised, or otherwise notions of metaphysics, and contemplations about the nature of Good and Evil in Tolkien's dualist universe, back to basics about the Ainulindale--Melkor is embedded in Arda, deliberately.

Quote:
"thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
@reader

Arda-healed is a position not antagonistic to my own. In my positioning, I use some of Tolkien's linguistic turns of phrase or nuances to position ideas about what might have ensued in any Second Making for the Second Prophesy of Mandos.. Which incidentally, does, indeed occur after the breaking of Arda--(too busy to grab my Tomes and quote from it)--where, when the Powers grow weary, Melkor returns thru the Doors of Night to do battle at Ezellohar. My ideas are not overly concerned with 'measuring' the relative 'power quotient' in a ranking of the Valar. I realise I made some points about the First Age and used ideas in The Silmarillion to 'rank' Melkor's power against his bretheren. Melkor (and all the Valar) bleed power as they 'invest' their might into the Firmament of Arda. Central to what I'm suggesting, in any case, is that A Second Making would, indeed, need to break the firmament of Arda to reorganise reality.

I'm pondering, then about revisionist expressions of Valar-ian power, where the question and notion of Evil is addressed. The problem is the tendency for the Arda-ian mind to be divisionist in how she or he purposefully splits the universe (and so their own mind--entre Gollum/Sméagol) with critical fracture lines. On 'this' side of the fracture--all is Good--and on 'that' side--all is Evil. That is, to their own peril, every being in Arda devises splits, within the mind, dividing their universe up. An Orc is the mirror-image-inverse fractured mind of the Elf, and the two beings, do indeed, imply the existence of a gestalt, or a synergy being that is greater in measure, insight, subtlety and purpose than either Elf of Orc, for example. The same applies for the 'Evil-Vala--Good-Vala' critical fracture line. They two are interdependent, and inspire (Eru) things 'more wonderful' than *either* being could devise, singularly.

Which is to remind us of Eru's own words where:

Quote:
...For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined
We have not seen these 'more wonderful' creations yet, because 'he himself hath not imagined' them.

This is where I found an insight about the Good/Evil bifurcation about creations in Arda. It's implied in the Mythology, tacitly, everywhere I look. Unsight for a creation in Arda, is the idealising of notions of dynamic flow of good and evil 'energies' in metaphysical planes (and much more beyond. Inverses of an inverse imply, tacitly and explicitly, the 'things wonderful' running Evil in the INverse.

So, for example, for Ungoliant's Unlight, visualise her as a 'power station' and 'vacuum cleaner' and plugging her into an "inversion-inverter" -- some kind of Artefact that conjoins Arda's expressions of The Flame Imperishable, with the 'recycling' function of Evil.

Wraith, Necromantic and Evil manifestations, in the end, are just inversions of life. If the moral implications of 'Evil' are suspended, just for a moment, these ideas of Sauron and Melkor merely imply and prompt the birthing of 'more wonderful' creations.

For example--and this one was a flash I had today. If the Three Rings had been crafted with a 'failsafe' that recognised the 'signature' of metaphysical 'flow' of The Flame Imperishable running in the Inverse (i.e. Necromancy), there is no reason to have pre-supposed that the Mirdain could have created The Rings to 'backflow' or 'backflush' an attempt by a Sauronic tyrant to dominate the Rings. In this reformulation of The Rings of Power, the attempt to subvert a being wearing a Ring would experience and amplified, backflush, of Elvendom, in a positive feedback loop, so that a takeover attempt propagated Elvendom into the Wielder of the One. This does not need 'more power than Sauron' this modelling of energetics merely needs to devise a 'flow parameter' that inverts the polarity of a 'takeover' attempt, which, then, uses an Evil Compulsion quite against itself. No additional power required.

That is but one idea about what reorganisation of reality would be required, to 'heal' Arda by interlocking antithetical, seemingly opposed 'power' concepts into ideas that are synergistic.

In the end, energetics of magic in Arda do imply ideas about 'flow'. One 'flow' is the Giving of 'radiance' of the 'Valinorean planes of existence'. One 'flow' is the syphoning--taking--of life, to, presumably, return some feature of energy back to The Void.

Last edited by Ivriniel; 05-25-2014 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 05-25-2014, 12:07 AM   #34
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The materials I've posted are not the 'Tolkien's Arda' of the First Making, but about what Tolkien might have meant for a second making: it's an interpolation of what Eru meant:

Quote:
thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined
I.e. stop trying to 'defeat' the other. Melkor as the 'evil other' and from Melkor's point of view, the Valar as the--what--'good other'? And an implication of Eru's final ideas in the Music of the Ainur, when Arda is broken and remade.

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Old 07-17-2014, 04:25 PM   #35
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They could create they just couldnt create new life forms, like Aule and the dwarfs. Aule made the dwarfs and they could walk and talk but were like robots is the way i interpreted it. Eru gave them feelings and free thought. When Aule took his hammer and was going to destroy them he noticed they were scared and begged him not to kill them, thats when he realized Eru had decided to let them be. Gandalf and the Balrog made fire and lightining when they fought on top of the mountain. It said thay people who saw it saw lightning strike and fire fly out from the top of the mountain, like a storm id say. When the Valar threw down Angband they sank Beleiand, I would imagine that they could use the flame imperishable to control the elements and do 'magic' and such, some would be better at certain things then others. Manwe and wind, Ulmo and water ect.... but i imagine they could all use them all to a extent.
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