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Old 05-15-2019, 03:38 AM   #281
Urwen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post

Did she love him? She certainly goes to bat for him at least once, but that's in her role as Mercy. Given how unrepentant Melkor is, it's hard to see how the Weeper could fall for him.
Which brings me to the first (and only) real creep in the Silmarilion: Eol the Dark Elf, maker of Anglachel/Gurthang (which just so happened to end up in the hands of someone as dark and brooding as he himself was)
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench.

I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

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Old 05-15-2019, 03:52 AM   #282
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It miiiight be polite to mention when you're linking to explicit smut.

Also: the fact that someone wrote fanfic of it doesn't make it true. I have a very long story asserting that Legolas went on a time-travelling adventure to throw pancakes in the face of most of Middle-earth, but that doesn't mean you should cite it as evidence of baked goods weaponry. From what I caught before closing it, that story doesn't even make a case: it just sort of throws them together.

Which is fine; it's fanfic, and moreover it's smut. But it's not an argument.

My own Nienna/Melkor story, for what it's worth, is over here, and is perfectly safe to read. But also doesn't make a case out-of-universe.

hS
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:54 AM   #283
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I can so picture it.....


[SETTING: After Dagor Dagorath]

EOL
*sips tea*
Why, you're finally here. Wanna talk?

TURIN:
Talk about what?

EOL:
They hail you as a hero, don't you know? They sing praises to you, who drove your sword into Morgoth's black heart. Serves him right, that sucker, ha! And yet, they all overlook my contribution to the whole thing....

TURIN:
*frowns*
What are you talking about?

EOL:
I made your sword, you know? It was the finest piece of work I've ever created. There was another just like it. It's sibling, you know. Then it was taken from me by....someone I wish I could wipe out from my memory. Still, your contribution help me quell my bitterness about that....incident.

[enter Nellas, clearly displeased at the view]

NELLAS:
*frowns*
Stay away from my husband, spouse-killer

TURIN:
*stands up*
It's okay, it really is.

NELLAS:
No, it's not. He is only trying to corrupt you.

TURIN:
*wry grin*
Ah, the irony. In the past, it was me who corrupted others.

NELLAS:
That was Morgoth's influence.

TURIN:
If I had stayed with you, none of that would have happened, so some of the blame lies with me.
*suddenly notices that his sword is no longer there*

EOL:
It served its purpose in slaying Morgoth, so now I'm taking it back. Thank you.

TURIN:
Meh, I am better off without it. Shall we?

*Turin and Nellas wander off together, as the scene fades to black*
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:00 AM   #284
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Someone should totally write a fanfiction about Turin and Eol meeting one another.....
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:44 PM   #285
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I just read a story which nearly drove me to tears. What really gets me is the fact that he destroyed the best thing he ever had out of petty jealousy.....
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:04 AM   #286
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Do you believe that Feanor was a genius? And what are your thoughts on his exile?
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:08 AM   #287
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I wish I could talk about certain someone for all of eternity.

gurd tuohtiw a gurd ym si nilgeam rof
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench.

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Old 05-23-2019, 01:55 AM   #288
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New topic

I am curious about the song lyrics of these two songs (links lead to song lyrics, not videos).

Some people claim that both songs are about Maeglin, while some say that the first one is about Anglachel and the second one is about Turin. What are your thoughts on this subject?
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:07 AM   #289
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I need your input regarding this.

I want to write a story inspired by these two songs and I want to know who the main character should be.
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Old 05-23-2019, 05:19 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Urwen View Post
I want to write a story inspired by these two songs and I want to know who the main character should be.
I think I've said before that I'm not all that into music questions, but since you asked nicely (elsewhere), and since I'm already vaguely familiar with the songs, okay...

-Is The Dark Elf one of the narrative/non-lyrical songs? The link you give only provides one line ("A dark seed of evil is grown"), which certainly sounds like those tracks (the most hilarious is 'Lammoth', which is just a 20 second scream). Anyway, the title certainly points at Eol, since it's his usual moniker.

-Thorn is said by Wikipedia to be about Maeglin in captivity, and I can't argue. Look at these lines:

Quote:
Come follow me
And you will see
How it will be
When all the pain is gone away
Quote:
I'm lost in the depths of his eyes
I can't flee
Inner pain caused insanity
It's deep within
The fear and the hunger
Enslaved and denied
By my love and my enemies
I'm the illgotten son
That latter quote is just a paraphrase of the idea that Morgoth put a shadow of fear in Maeglin's heart before he sent him back. It specifically doesn't work for Turin, because he was never caught by anyone's eyes (that was Nienor), and wasn't denied by either of his canonical loves (rather, he denied Finduilas).

Have you listened to the whole album? I admit to mostly liking Nightfall itself, but there's some good stuff on there.

hS
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:32 PM   #291
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Headcanon time!

Yes, I have listened to the whole album.

What got me thinking is this single lyric:

Quote:
The dark seed of evil is sown/grown

The book says something similar about Maeglin.

What if there is a deeper meaning behind that?

It is stated in the book that Morgoth feared Turgon more than anything else? What if he took a more proactive role in bringing about his demise, using one of the Elves he stole from Cuivinen? He had one of his Orcs rape her, and she gave birth to Eol, who in turn, ensnared Aredhel, who gave birth to Maeglin. Why would he do this? Simple, to bring Maeglin into the world as his instrument against Turgon and his line.

That would also explain why he didn't torture him as badly as the other prisoners. Maeglin had been programmed to aid him from the get go. It was in his blood, and therefore he knew Maeglin wouldn't defy him as easily.

And when Maeglin was old enough, Morgoth instilled within him a desire to seek out Gondolin, just as Ulmo did with Tuor, as well as a desire to possess Idril, thus ensuring his path as the bringer of destruction for Gondolin, Turgon and Turgon's line.

Maeglin was literally programmed to betray Gondolin, and that's what 'the dark seed of evil' line (both in the song and the book) really means.
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Old 05-26-2019, 02:50 AM   #292
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Please share your thoughts on this.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:22 AM   #293
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It was in his blood, and therefore he knew Maeglin wouldn't defy him as easily.
So, you're saying genetics determines behavior?

That stance is going to earn you a bit of dislike from... certain groups.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:36 AM   #294
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Sometimes it does, according to several sources. Plus, in case you didn't notice from my recent posts, I am not anti-Maeglin, I am pro-Maeglin.
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Old 05-26-2019, 11:41 AM   #295
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Sometimes it does, according to several sources. Plus, in case you didn't notice from my recent posts, I am not anti-Maeglin, I am pro-Maeglin.
But why do you think it's impossible to be pro-Maeglin without rewriting his story all the time? You keep trying to change his story to make excuses for him. Well, he did bad things, and it was his fault, and a made up excuse is not going to change that. Doesn't mean he's not an interesting character. By trying to explain away a character's shortcomings and blaming them on external sources you are actually making them a more boring character.


As for this specific theory, that implies Morgoth knew that Aredhel would be wandering about in that particular region of the world, and that Eol would have to know it too and marry her with the purpose of desteoying Gondolin... Not too complicated?

And dark seeds of evil. What's wrong with the more conventional interpretation of corrupted thought or spirit?
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Old 05-26-2019, 11:48 AM   #296
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Why do I keep doing it, you ask? Well, it is because I am pro-Maeglin, and hence I don't want him to die.
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:00 PM   #297
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Why do I keep doing it, you ask? Well, it is because I am pro-Maeglin, and hence I don't want him to die.
That's like being pro-gravity and not wanting things to fall. If you like the character the way he was written, why would you want to change the way he was written?

Also, spoiler, but he still dies.

So I still don't get it. *shrugs*
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:20 PM   #298
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I never said I like him the way he was written, because his canonical-self dies, and I am not okay with that. You're the ones who like him the way he is written. You're the ones who are happy that he died.

Then again, you do have a point. If he were different, the reasons I started liking him in the first place would be gone. (I like tragic villains, okay?)

However, his death is still something I feel shouldn't have happened. Two sides of me warring over this: one side of me knows it had to have been, while the other side rejects that idea.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench.

I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

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Old 05-26-2019, 01:52 PM   #299
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Then again, you do have a point. If he were different, the reasons I started liking him in the first place would be gone. (I like tragic villains, okay?)
Yeah, that's exactly my point (and I like tragic characters too, you're not the only one ). The beauty of tragic heroes and anti-heroes is the tragedy. You want it to not happen that way, but you also like the story because it happens that way. The joy is in the pain?

But it's not just about the tragic ending. The latest alternative history you propose here still maintains Maeglin's death, it just takes away the tragedy and complexity behind it. It isn't anymore the story of an outsider whose lust lead him to terrible moral decisions, a story of passion and motivation. Instead it's a story of a machine doing its job. If Maeglin was pre-programmed to do everything he's done, as you propose, the tragic aspect - the willingness to send the whole world to hell to get what he desires. He's Terminator, he isn't a person, isn't a complex character.
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Old 05-26-2019, 02:26 PM   #300
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And yet, I still didn't want him to die, just as I didn't want Feanor, Maedhros, Aredhel, Turin, Nienor, Tar-Miriel or Urwen to die.
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Old 05-26-2019, 03:05 PM   #301
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And yet, I still didn't want him to die, just as I didn't want Feanor, Maedhros, Aredhel, Turin, Nienor, Tar-Miriel or Urwen to die.
And isn't it great? Some of these characters did terrible things, and yet we still love them and don't want them to die! Doesn't that speak to the depth of these characters and the quality of the story?
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Old 05-26-2019, 03:21 PM   #302
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And isn't it great? Some of these characters did terrible things, and yet we still love them and don't want them to die! Doesn't that speak to the depth of these characters and the quality of the story?

Yes, but you forgot one little detail: they still died even though we didn't want them to die.
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Old 03-03-2020, 08:25 AM   #303
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So I recently stumbled upon a site which has a lot of alternative names for characters. Some I have unearthed:

Maeglin - Morleg, Glirhuin
Eol - Eor, Alvar
Aredhel: Rodwen
Earendil: Gaerdil, Aradamir, Horvendill, Orentil
Saeros: Orgof
Tuor: Eladar
Gwindor: Galweg
Turin: Gormagli
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Old 06-12-2021, 03:18 PM   #304
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I just had a thought: Aredhel was the original 'Ar-Something' title user, and the Ar- kings of Numenor were emulating her and things relating to her. Think about it:

1. She couldn't have died of old age, which is why they wanted immortality
2. She had a controlling husband, which is why the women of Numenor took a backseat in the days of Ar-kings (*leers at Phary*)
3. Said husband killed both her and himself, as Phary's actions caused the deaths of himself and his wife.
4. Her son was in love with his first cousin (*leers at Phary some more*)

You get the idea...
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Old 06-12-2021, 05:48 PM   #305
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I’m so excited this thread exists I was planning a similar one.

I’m going to piggyback and say I thoroughly wish we knew more about the dwarves at Bagend the night Bilbo left.
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Old 06-14-2021, 05:24 AM   #306
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I’m so excited this thread exists I was planning a similar one.

I’m going to piggyback and say I thoroughly wish we knew more about the dwarves at Bagend the night Bilbo left.
Well, we slightly do! Let's take a look at them:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FotR
An odd-looking waggon laden with odd-looking packages rolled into Hobbiton one evening and toiled up the Hill to Bag End. The startled hobbits peered out of lamplit doors to gape at it. It was driven by outlandish folk, singing strange songs: dwarves with long beards and deep hoods. A few of them remained at Bag End.
We know that Bilbo's walking-companions arrived in early September, so were hanging out at Bag-End for 1-2 weeks. We know they came from the Lonely Mountain, by way of Dale.

We can also conclude that they're old enough to have been alive at the time of the Battle of Five Armies, but they may not have fought in it. If they're under about 100, they would have been children during the Battle; and even if older, they may have been in the Blue Mountains, not the Iron Hills. See next point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FotR
'And look at the outlandish folk that visit him: dwarves coming at night...'
This quote comes before the one above, and tells us that Bilbo had dwarves as guests often enough for Sandyman to notice. Given that the Shire doesn't exactly have trade with Erebor, those dwarves were probably mostly passing through on their way to and from the Blue Mountains. I think it's reasonable to guess that Bilbo's house-guests and walking-companions weren't people he'd just met that month: more plausibly, they were some of those traders and/or other migrants crossing the Shire.

More tentatively, that means they may have been from Thorin's faction of the Longbeards, not Dain's. The people most likely to make the long and dangerous journey to the Blue Mountains are the ones who used to live there, not the ones from the Iron Hills! That makes them either children during Thorin's quest, or dwarves who didn't go with him to Erebor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoME VI: Return to Hobbiton
'Nar, Anar, Hannar, are you ready? Right. Off we go.'
It's from the draft, but they have names! Furthermore, from their names, they're probably a set of brothers (see: Balin and Dwalin) or two brothers and a cousin (see: Dori, Nori, and Ori), or maybe a father and two sons (see: Groin, Oin, and Gloin). Definitely close relatives, at any rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appendix A
Years afterwards Thrór, now old, poor, and desperate, gave to his son Thráin the one great treasure he still possessed, the last of the Seven Rings, and then he went away with one old companion only, called Nár.
Slightly speculatively: dwarven names often recur down the family tree (there are three Nains, for example). A lot of these could be just families using the names of kings, but there's no King Nar that we know of. Nar, companion of Bilbo, could be a descendent of Nar, companion of Thror. There's about 200 years between their appearances, and Thror's Nar was old; given that dwarves tend to have their children at age 100, we're looking at Bilbo's friends being his grandchildren or great-grandchildren. They may be old enough to have heard the tale of Thror's death in Moria first-hand; they would certainly have heard it from the elder Nar's children.

This would tie in nicely with the idea of them being Blue Mountain dwarves originally, who had moved to Erebor after the Battle of Five Armies.

Much more speculatively: Nar is not mentioned at the Battle of Azanulbizar, nor anyone related to him. Tolkien being Tolkien, if the family of the dwarf who witnessed Thror's death was present during the fight to avenge him, you'd expect a mention somewhere! So I can imagine Thrain taking his father's companion by the shoulder and saying 'You're not coming; you've done enough'. Whether he means 'by serving Thror to the last' or 'because you got him killed' is open to interpretation, but the upshot is that the later Nar, and his kinsmen Anar and Hannar, would have been left out of Thorin's expedition because their family has already Done Enough. (We know dwarves have long memories - they still have a grudge against the elves over Thingol!)

~

And that, I think, is all we know or can plausibly deduce. Tolkien Gateway claims that in the early drafts Nar is given "some dialogue and a bit more development", but I think this is wrong: they've carried it across from Lofar, the fourth dwarf who stayed back with Gandalf and has a line to himself ("Goodbye, Bingo; I am going with Gandalf"). He was dropped completely from the book, while the others just lost their names; but their only dialogue appears only ever to have been "Everything" in response to Bilbo asking if everything was ready.

(One cheeky final bit of speculation: the Blue Mountains were originally home to the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, who mingled with Durin's folk after Beleriand fell. Those two cities were founded by the Firebeard and Broadbeam houses. At least two dwarves of Nogrod, Telchar and Naugladur, have seemingly Elvish use-names. "Nar" is the Quenya word for "fire", as "Anar" is Quenya for "Sun"... could they be ancient use-name adopted by the Firebeards who came in contact with the Quenya-fluent elves of Eregion, which werelater taken to be Northern names and matched with the similar Hannar? )

hS
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Old 06-14-2021, 06:07 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Urwen View Post
I just had a thought: Aredhel was the original 'Ar-Something' title user, and the Ar- kings of Numenor were emulating her and things relating to her. Think about it:

1. She couldn't have died of old age, which is why they wanted immortality
2. She had a controlling husband, which is why the women of Numenor took a backseat in the days of Ar-kings (*leers at Phary*)
3. Said husband killed both her and himself, as Phary's actions caused the deaths of himself and his wife.
4. Her son was in love with his first cousin (*leers at Phary some more*)

You get the idea...
No response to that? :sadface:
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Old Yesterday, 08:11 AM   #308
Urwen
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In my native language, this guy is spelled like this, which I find rather interesting...
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Old Yesterday, 11:10 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.
I'm a bit late to this particular party but in my opinion, and generally speaking, Elves repeated names. Tolkien's late comment about the name Glorfindel has already been raised, but to repeat it here:

Quote:
"At any rate what at first sight may seem the simplest solution must be abandoned: sc. that we have merely a reduplication of names, and that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were different persons. This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name born by another Elvish person of importance."

JRRT, Glorfindel II, The Peoples of Middle-Earth
In the margin JRRT also wrote: "Why not?" which in my opinion seems to refer to the "credible" part, and is arguably answered by the next sentence (as Christopher Tolkien appears to think as well). In addition, a Tolkienian note (same text) about the name Galdor reads:

Quote:
"Galdor also appeared in The Fall of Gondolin, but the name is of a more simple and usual form [than Glorfindel] and might be repeated."

And back to the credible statement for a moment, in my opinion -- if this is indeed Tolkien's answer to "why not" -- well, let's just say I might respond with something like: "Well, not yet! That is, you can make it so."

Cough. That is, if I met JRRT in real life and could actually speak in his presence. And if I jumped that hurdle, I still dared to annoy him with such a response (unlikely, I think).



And this late comment raises the question of "importance" and "striking-ness" too, but in any case, we have other examples to possibly consider, some from JRRT's late writings.


Argon -- name often given by Sindar and Noldor in memory of Aracano's valour (The Shibboleth of Feanor)

Celebrimbor -- Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar -- said to be a frequent name among the Teleri (late writing, noted in Of Dwarves And Men, note 7).

Rúmil -- there are seemingly two Rúmils noted in The Lord of the Rings.

Gelmir -- there are seemingly two Gelmirs in Silmarillion writings.

Ambarussa -- (somewhat related here, though not exactly reflective of the point in general): Nerdanel gave her 6th and 7th child the same name: Ambarussa, though Feanor called one Ambarto desiring that they should be differently named.


Finarfin's Mother-name was Ingoldo, and Finarfin itself is a Sindarization of his name Arafinwe after being "prefixed" by the name Finwe -- that is, Finwe Arafinwe > Finarfin (see also Finwe Nolofinwe > Fingolfin)

Finrod's Mother-name was Ingoldo as well. And . . .

Quote:
"Eärwen gave this name [Ingoldo] to her eldest child Artafindë (Finrod), and by it he was usually called by his brothers and sister who esteemed him and loved him. It was never Sindarized (the form would have been Angoloð). The name spread from his kin to many others who held him in honour, especially to Men (the Atani) of whom he was the greatest friend among the Eldar."

JRRT Shibboleth of Feanor
"Especially to Men" at least seems to include Elves too. In my opinion anyway
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Old Yesterday, 11:47 AM   #310
Urwen
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Guess people no longer want to talk with me about things, not here at least. Oh well...back to creating individual topics...
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