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Old 09-22-2021, 09:48 PM   #521
Galadriel55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
It's almost as though Tolkien actually thought his characters' motivations through...!

(No, actually that is surprising, for the Silm; the number of times he rejigged random bits of the story gives very much the opposite impression.)
Lol. I suppose you can fit whatever motivations you want under the bare bones of facts. But seriously!...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Well, you're singing it! That's the one I landed on, too, with a slight preference towards "claim".
And "claim" it is! That was a brilliant way to turn that phrase, I love it. It hits all the right points, and it flows really well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The beauty of Middle-earth is that Tolkien created such a broad and deep setting that you can always wriggle anything into being canonical. I could've gone field, hills, river or swamp and still found somewhere to fit it. (Possibly even better than Brethil would have been Tasarinan with the willows, but eh, I like birch.)
Birches are lovely! And I think Tasarinan is a bit far to the south, no? (Or else I'm just looking for excuses to justify the birches )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(Utterly unrelated: good grief, I've just discovered the 3-volume edition of HoME, which sounds frankly terrifying!)
That's a whopper! O.o


Now, to the meat of the stuff... today I discovered that my voice is fully back! And therefore:

Test run of Dream, which demonstrates that I need to do something about the end consonants (wind wing???) and the breath for the final "mine". But I'm up to Beren's part for the music, give or take a bit of editing.

And:

Appeal - Entrance, where Beren is slightly off-key, but that' okay because the Elf Choir seems good. (Choir alone here). I swear, doing the choirs is such tremendous fun! (...swear to this oath... ). I think that's pretty much the end of them though, except for Epilogue where "everybody" sings. Well, we'll still get to play around with Beren/Luthien harmony on the "Let the wind rage" stanzas, twice. I was hoping to sing through the whole of Nargothrond too, but it is quite late, and the part of me that knows better put its foot down at this point because I already have done none of the reading I was supposed to do today and I will sooo regret this tomorrow as it is. But at least Choir is there, and I will get to Appeal eventually and sing it to my heart's content. ^.^
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Old 09-25-2021, 06:40 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Birches are lovely! And I think Tasarinan is a bit far to the south, no? (Or else I'm just looking for excuses to justify the birches )
Technically the problem with my thought process is that Nargothrond is too far to the north, but yes, Brethil makes more sense. ^_^ Though technically the Silm tells us that followed Narog up to the Wells of Ivrin, so it should really be the Núath, but has anyone even heard of Núath? No. They're not even on the Silm map, just the CoH one. So Brethil it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Now, to the meat of the stuff... today I discovered that my voice is fully back! And therefore:

Test run of Dream, which demonstrates that I need to do something about the end consonants (wind wing???) and the breath for the final "mine". But I'm up to Beren's part for the music, give or take a bit of editing.
Huzzah! I see what you mean about the consonants, but overall it sounds great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Appeal - Entrance, where Beren is slightly off-key, but that' okay because the Elf Choir seems good. (Choir alone here). I swear, doing the choirs is such tremendous fun! (...swear to this oath... ). I think that's pretty much the end of them though, except for Epilogue where "everybody" sings. Well, we'll still get to play around with Beren/Luthien harmony on the "Let the wind rage" stanzas, twice. I was hoping to sing through the whole of Nargothrond too, but it is quite late, and the part of me that knows better put its foot down at this point because I already have done none of the reading I was supposed to do today and I will sooo regret this tomorrow as it is. But at least Choir is there, and I will get to Appeal eventually and sing it to my heart's content. ^.^
I'll splice the choir into the video when I get a chance. I'm always impressed by your choir work - I can never get it to work well when trying it myself. It's good!

hS
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Old 09-26-2021, 08:59 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I'll splice the choir into the video when I get a chance. I'm always impressed by your choir work - I can never get it to work well when trying it myself. It's good!
Thank you! I confess, I cheat - I rarely can sing harmony clearly right off the top of my head. So instead I write it same way I would write the score, with an instrument playing more than one set of notes, and I fiddle with it until I'm happy with the sound. Then I delete the main voice line, and I'm left with the lower voice(s). Then I can hear them in isolation and sing along to them to make it a cleaner recording. Here's the one for Appeal, if you wanna give it a try.



Yesterday I was listening to Pella Hisie again, and it just occurred to me that it's Maglor singing, is it not? I think the first time I listened to it the details of the song didn't really register. But what I really want to know is who is the woman that he addresses. Especially since the Quenya and Russian sections seem to have very different meanings when it comes to the crucial lines about her. (FYI, apparently the second section in Russian is a translation by Lora Bocharova! Oh the small world of Russian Tolkien). I have enough Elvish to tell that the Russian is occasionally unfaithful, but then I found a more literal translation that confirmed it.


Quenya Lyrics:
Pella hisie, penna ma'r
o'renyan iltuvima la'r.
Erya tenn' ambarone sundar
Na'lye - fi'rie, nwalma, na'r.

Tular Valar mi' silme fa'nar,
Meldanya curuntanen ta'nar.
Minya Vard' elerri'le anta;
Miruvo're Yavanna quanta.
Ulmo - losse earo, yallo
Aule ca'ra vanima canta.
Nesso - lintesse, Va'no - helmo
Tula Melkor ar anta melmo.

Erwa na, Feana'ro hin, ;
u'ner ma'ra voronda nin.
Hlara, melda carmeo aina,
laurefinda ve Laurelin:
u'-kenuvanyel, tenn' Ambar-metta.
Hlara enya me'tima quetta.

Pella hisie, pella men,
ti'ra ilu'veke'na he'n.
Indis.
Engwa indeo olos.
Na'va manina elya men.




Literal translation
Beyond the mist, without a home
My soul will not find peace.
To its cursed roots
You are death, torment, fire.

Come Valar in shining guises
And create my beloved with their enchantment.
First, Varda gifts starsheen,
Yavanna fills with the nectar of life (Miruvor),
Ulmo gives the foam of the sea, from which
Aule creates a beautiful form.
From Nessa - nimbleness, from Vana - skin.
Comes Melkor and gives her a lover.

Alone (lonely?) is the son of Feanaro;
No one remained loyal to me.
Listen, beloved, fruit of sacred art,
Golden-haired like Laurelin:
I will not see you again until the end of the world.
Hark to my last word.

From beyond the mist, from beyond the water
The all-seeing eye is watching. (All-seeing eye is the Lidless eye in Russian LOTR - is this Sauron?... Or something else?)
Woman.
Dream of a fevered mind.
May your road be blessed.




Russian verses
I have no home even across the sea,
Even in the distance of misty fields.
I have no peace, and no heart -
You have burned it to the roots.

Only the Valar could have created
You, beloved, daughter of the earth.
Varda gifted you white light,
Yavanna filled you with [archaic word for alcohol].
Ulmo gave you a foamy guise,
Aule shaped the wonderous form.
Nessa released the body from bonds,
Melkor made you love another.

Alone (lonely?) is the son of Feanaro,
None are loyal to him now.
Listen, maiden whose hair is gold,
Who was made to be my woe:
I am immortal, there is no worse fate,
I shall not see you until

Beyond the mist, beyond the water
My steps shall lead as well;
After you, whose journey was brief
As the smoke that flies on the wind.




First of all, I saw a number of times when Russian-Quenya poetry is written with a ton of apostrophes and contractions. ...Why? It looks ugly. I can see the reason behind "Vard' ", because the final vowel gets lost. But, for instance, why "ma'r"? What are all these marks supposed to represent? I feel like English Quenya (lol) doesn't have nearly the same amount.

But on to the content... Surely the speaker is Maglor, the lonely son of Feanor! But who is the lady that he is serenading? I cannot recall any canon about Maglor's love life. Interestingly, first major diversion in the lyrics comes on the Melkor line - the person who provided the literal translation pointed out that the Quenya only says that Melkor gives her a "beloved [man]", implying most likely himself - and not another man that she loved instead. So the tragedy is not a love triangle but their love itself, due to their eternal separation. But the last stanza is the meat of it. The Russian really makes it sound like he's talking about a mortal woman - one who is as brief as smoke on the wind. But the Quenya has no support for that, really. It's just a well-wish to someone whose identity remains really vague. I am not sure about the whole Eye reference though. Beyond the water is surely in Valinor, not TA Mordor - so... Manwe watching? Dunno.

As an aside... Surely there's a typo in the last stanza, for "water" - should it not be "nen", not "men"?
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Old 09-26-2021, 09:31 AM   #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Thank you! I confess, I cheat - I rarely can sing harmony clearly right off the top of my head. So instead I write it same way I would write the score, with an instrument playing more than one set of notes, and I fiddle with it until I'm happy with the sound. Then I delete the main voice line, and I'm left with the lower voice(s). Then I can hear them in isolation and sing along to them to make it a cleaner recording. Here's the one for Appeal, if you wanna give it a try.
The fact that I don't understand most of what you just said explains why I'm so impressed. Sure, you think that makes it easier...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
First of all, I saw a number of times when Russian-Quenya poetry is written with a ton of apostrophes and contractions. ...Why? It looks ugly. I can see the reason behind "Vard' ", because the final vowel gets lost. But, for instance, why "ma'r"? What are all these marks supposed to represent? I feel like English Quenya (lol) doesn't have nearly the same amount.
I think a lot of those are actually accents: "Feana'ro" is just "Fëanáro", badly formatted. Some of them are still apostrophes, like Vard' and tenn' (that one's Tolkien's fault).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
But on to the content... Surely the speaker is Maglor, the lonely son of Feanor! But who is the lady that he is serenading? I cannot recall any canon about Maglor's love life.
First off, technically I've written about this! Dafydd Illian is a fictionally-created copy of Maglor (it's complicated), and when she hears this song his wife has Questions.

As Dafydd says, the answer is buried in HoME XII: apparently it's a note Tolkien jotted in one of his copies of RotK, saying that "Maedros" was unwedded, as were the twins, one of whom burned with the ships, and Celegorm, because he planned to marry Luthien. He notes that Curufin was married, and his son (Celebrimbor) followed him when his wife did not; then ends with "Others who were wedded were Maelor, Caranthir". And that's literally all we know about Mrs Maglor.

(This, and an associated note, are the reason Christopher put Celebrimbor as Curufin's son in the published Silm, so they're weightier than they look canon-wise.)

I actually thought it was about Curufin's wife, who Silm-canonically exists, but I can't find the source of that belief. ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Interestingly, first major diversion in the lyrics comes on the Melkor line - the person who provided the literal translation pointed out that the Quenya only says that Melkor gives her a "beloved [man]", implying most likely himself - and not another man that she loved instead. So the tragedy is not a love triangle but their love itself, due to their eternal separation. But the last stanza is the meat of it. The Russian really makes it sound like he's talking about a mortal woman - one who is as brief as smoke on the wind. But the Quenya has no support for that, really. It's just a well-wish to someone whose identity remains really vague. I am not sure about the whole Eye reference though. Beyond the water is surely in Valinor, not TA Mordor - so... Manwe watching? Dunno.
I feel like the Quenya is pretty clearly Maglor talking about his wife. The only people he would describe as coming from Melkor are his own accursed house, surely! The Eye could be Manwe (I think it probably is), but could also be Maglor himself or his estranged wife - or even the Silmaril of Earendil! There's nothing in the Quenya to make it The Eye, just an eye that sees all.

That Russian version is very different, and doesn't tell the same story at all. How odd.

... errrrr, the Russian transcription I have in my link runs like this:

Из-за тумана, из-за воды
смотрит всевидящее око.
Женщина.
Сон больного разума.
Да будет благословенным твой путь.

Have I managed to get a Google Translated version of the Russian in there somehow? I can't imagine how, but it's possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
As an aside... Surely there's a typo in the last stanza, for "water" - should it not be "nen", not "men"?
I'm not sure the singer's enunciation is clear enough to distinguish nen from men; I've got it as Nen in my copy of the lyrics, and I don't think I would have corrected it.

I also stand by what Dafydd said: it describes her as blonde. Can you imagine Feanor's reaction to his son marrying a Vanya? The Kinslaying at Alqualonde would have nothing on this!

EDIT: I've just looked up Maglor (actually Maelor) in NoME, and he only has one reference, but it's a "what?!" moment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoME 3.VIII Manwe's Ban
The most notable were those Maiar who took the form of the mighty speaking eagles [...] Their intervention in the story of Maelor, in the duel of Fingolfin and Melkor, in the rescue of Beren and Luthien is well known.
Like, it's almost certainly a typo for Maedhros, but if so, why no mention of Fingon? The "source" of the text appears to be a late (Gondorian?) footnote to a Numenorean text, so again, it's probably meant to be Maedhros; but you have to wonder...

hS
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Old 09-26-2021, 10:16 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I think a lot of those are actually accents: "Feana'ro" is just "Fëanáro", badly formatted. Some of them are still apostrophes, like Vard' and tenn' (that one's Tolkien's fault).
...Ooooh! That makes way more sense. I wonder why it's so prevalent. But it makes sense at least!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
First off, technically I've written about this! Dafydd Illian is a fictionally-created copy of Maglor (it's complicated), and when she hears this song his wife has Questions.
Lol. I loved the "you've got the Canon right now". And I love the translation! Do you have a full English version?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
As Dafydd says, the answer is buried in HoME XII: apparently it's a note Tolkien jotted in one of his copies of RotK, saying that "Maedros" was unwedded, as were the twins, one of whom burned with the ships, and Celegorm, because he planned to marry Luthien. He notes that Curufin was married, and his son (Celebrimbor) followed him when his wife did not; then ends with "Others who were wedded were Maelor, Caranthir". And that's literally all we know about Mrs Maglor.

(This, and an associated note, are the reason Christopher put Celebrimbor as Curufin's son in the published Silm, so they're weightier than they look canon-wise.)

I actually thought it was about Curufin's wife, who Silm-canonically exists, but I can't find the source of that belief. ^_^
I am still processing this information. It's having trouble fitting in among my current world constructs.

I mean, sure, Curufin the Jerk couldn't have been the only son of Feanor to find a wife. But there is literally no indication in the Sil that the others had any romantic relationships at all in their lives, and I am so unused to the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hui
I feel like the Quenya is pretty clearly Maglor talking about his wife. The only people he would describe as coming from Melkor are his own accursed house, surely!
That makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
... errrrr, the Russian transcription I have in my link runs like this:

Из-за тумана, из-за воды
смотрит всевидящее око.
Женщина.
Сон больного разума.
Да будет благословенным твой путь.

Have I managed to get a Google Translated version of the Russian in there somehow? I can't imagine how, but it's possible.
No, you've just managed to get the literal translation, as opposed to the verse one. This is what the Quenya means, but not what is sung in the second section. Here are the sung lyrics:

Нет мне дома и за морем,
И в далях туманных полей.
Нет покоя, как нет и сердца -
Ты сожгла его до корней.

Только валар создать могли
Тебя, любимая, дочь земли.
Варда свет подарила белый,
Напоила Яванна хмелем.
Ульмо дал тебе пенный образ,
Ауле вылепил дивный облик.
Несса с тела сняла оковы,
Мелькор заставил любить другого.

Одинок Феанаро сын,
Нет преданных ныне ему.
Слушай, дева, чьи кудри злато,
Ты, что создана мне на беду:
Я бессмертен, нет худшей доли -
Мне не видеть тебя, доколе

За туманы, за гладь воды
Не уйдут и мои следы;
За тобою, чей путь был краток,
Как летящий по ветру дым.


With regards to the authorship, I haven't been able to find the origin source, but people on Russian discussion forums seem to agree that Quenya lyrics are by Khatul, Russian lyrics are by Lora Bocharova, and most well-known sung version is by Aire and Saruman (a group that is known for making covers for other people's poetry).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I'm not sure the singer's enunciation is clear enough to distinguish nen from men; I've got it as Nen in my copy of the lyrics, and I don't think I would have corrected it.
Regarding her enunciation - the one comment on your video praises the music and the voice, but says that the pronunciation leaves much to be desired. And, after listening alongside the written lyrics, I have to agree. She muddles a lot of the pronunciation.

However, regarding nen/men, all the sites where I've found the lyrics have "men". I feel like it's probably been typed once incorrectly and then copied everywhere without spellcheck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I also stand by what Dafydd said: it describes her as blonde. Can you imagine Feanor's reaction to his son marrying a Vanya? The Kinslaying at Alqualonde would have nothing on this!


I actually wondered if she was perhaps Teleri, killed at the Kinslaying, when still trying to reconcile the fleeting smoke on the wind imagery with the Quenya where she is not mortal. But this is all rubbish. Yes, OMG, how did Maglor not get disowned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
EDIT: I've just looked up Maglor (actually Maelor) in NoME, and he only has one reference, but it's a "what?!" moment:

Like, it's almost certainly a typo for Maedhros, but if so, why no mention of Fingon? The "source" of the text appears to be a late (Gondorian?) footnote to a Numenorean text, so again, it's probably meant to be Maedhros; but you have to wonder...
I agree. Surely it's referring to Maedhros and Fingon, because... What story did Maglor ever have that could possibly involve Eagles?


PS: Does Russian really sound like the Black Speech?
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Old 09-26-2021, 02:43 PM   #526
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Lol. I loved the "you've got the Canon right now". And I love the translation! Do you have a full English version?
Sadly no; it took me long enough to cobble together the few lines he translates. I am not Maglor, despite any evidence to the contrary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I am still processing this information. It's having trouble fitting in among my current world constructs.

I mean, sure, Curufin the Jerk couldn't have been the only son of Feanor to find a wife. But there is literally no indication in the Sil that the others had any romantic relationships at all in their lives, and I am so unused to the idea.
Ditto; I quietly ignore it mostly. But with NoME and all, I am kind of tempted towards putting together a "Late Tolkien Aman" fanfic - all the names, all the marriages and dates, the Dome of Varda and everything... it'd be gloriously weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
No, you've just managed to get the literal translation, as opposed to the verse one. This is what the Quenya means, but not what is sung in the second section. Here are the sung lyrics:
Aiya Earendil... thank you for that, I'll update my story at some point. I don't think it'll have any impact plot-wise, so no problems there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
However, regarding nen/men, all the sites where I've found the lyrics have "men". I feel like it's probably been typed once incorrectly and then copied everywhere without spellcheck.
I want a Quenya spellcheck now. But yes, probably. I feel like a lot of song lyrics get that treatment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I actually wondered if she was perhaps Teleri, killed at the Kinslaying, when still trying to reconcile the fleeting smoke on the wind imagery with the Quenya where she is not mortal. But this is all rubbish. Yes, OMG, how did Maglor not get disowned?
SECRET WIFE. Maglor is clearly who Tolkien was on about in LaCE when he talks about just sneaking off into the woods and getting hitched. Golden-hand meets golden-hair under the light of Laurelin...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I agree. Surely it's referring to Maedhros and Fingon, because... What story did Maglor ever have that could possibly involve Eagles?
Perhaps it's "the story of Maglor" because it's about his catastrophic term as High King, and how Manwe's Eagles had to rescue his brother just to put an end to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
PS: Does Russian really sound like the Black Speech?
Pffft, ignore Dafydd, he's super racist. (He isn't - he's just super Feanorian-ist despite not getting on with his family. He doesn't /like/ them, but he still knows they're better than everyone else.)

hS
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Old 09-26-2021, 03:38 PM   #527
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Sadly no; it took me long enough to cobble together the few lines he translates. I am not Maglor, despite any evidence to the contrary.
You know, there's quite a lot of evidence to the contrary at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Ditto; I quietly ignore it mostly. But with NoME and all, I am kind of tempted towards putting together a "Late Tolkien Aman" fanfic - all the names, all the marriages and dates, the Dome of Varda and everything... it'd be gloriously weird.
I think "quietly ignore" is my preferred reaction too. Though I am not as rattled by the idea of a sweetheart. Can she just be his sweetheart? If you're feeling very soapy romantic, maybe she could be his secret love that he never had the chance to open his heart to, because he left with his dad before he could muster the courage (but was he afraid of her reaction or his dad's reaction? We will never know...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Perhaps it's "the story of Maglor" because it's about his catastrophic term as High King, and how Manwe's Eagles had to rescue his brother just to put an end to it.
Aww, poor Maglor. :,(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Pffft, ignore Dafydd, he's super racist. (He isn't - he's just super Feanorian-ist despite not getting on with his family. He doesn't /like/ them, but he still knows they're better than everyone else.)
Lol. But seriously, I have no idea what Russian sounds like from the perspective of English. I can say that English to Russian sounds like you're trying to talk with with an ice cube in your mouth, all the sounds are way too rounded and nothing comes out crisp. But even though my English is better than my Russian at this point in life, I still can't hear what other English speakers hear when it comes to Russian. It just sounds... normal. It's the standard for comparison.
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Old 09-26-2021, 04:04 PM   #528
Huinesoron
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You know, there's quite a lot of evidence to the contrary at this point.


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I think "quietly ignore" is my preferred reaction too. Though I am not as rattled by the idea of a sweetheart. Can she just be his sweetheart? If you're feeling very soapy romantic, maybe she could be his secret love that he never had the chance to open his heart to, because he left with his dad before he could muster the courage (but was he afraid of her reaction or his dad's reaction? We will never know...).
Are we 100% sure "she" isn't his harp?

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Lol. But seriously, I have no idea what Russian sounds like from the perspective of English. I can say that English to Russian sounds like you're trying to talk with with an ice cube in your mouth, all the sounds are way too rounded and nothing comes out crisp. But even though my English is better than my Russian at this point in life, I still can't hear what other English speakers hear when it comes to Russian. It just sounds... normal. It's the standard for comparison.
Trouble is, I don't think I've heard a lot of spoken Russian, and my sung Russian experience is polluted by the first set (Pella Hisie) being paired with Quenya, not English, and the second set (the Zong) now living in my head in English. I think it feels sharper - kind of the opposite of what you just said. But not as sharp as German. (And, um, I've just realised that one of the Zong lines in my head is actually from the /Quenya/ version of the Lament, so like... who even knows at this point. o.O)

hS
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Old 09-26-2021, 05:06 PM   #529
Galadriel55
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Are we 100% sure "she" isn't his harp?
Golden-stringed as the Laurelin!

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Originally Posted by Hui
(And, um, I've just realised that one of the Zong lines in my head is actually from the /Quenya/ version of the Lament, so like... who even knows at this point. o.O)
That reminds me of a line combination that went through my head a lot before I memorized the Quenya Lament:

Queta, Enyalie, queta
[spanish-sounding something]-es
[more of spanish] es es es es
Uribo pith nin oril (from Wilwarin, but I'm pretty sure these aren't even from the same line)
Shelest tvoih kryl (Russian "rustle of your wings")
Screw the Silmaril! (My rational brain catching up to what just came out)
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