The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-16-2002, 02:13 AM   #1
flinding
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting Did Gil-galad have children ?

Just a question that occurred to me, since Gil-galad was on Middle-Earth for so long.
More generally, why did elves have so few children, considering how long they lived ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2002, 05:45 AM   #2
Ravenna
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: witney, oxfordshire
Posts: 70
Ravenna has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

As far as I am aware, Gil-galad did not marry, so therefore, he had no children, which was why Elrond (I think), became his heir.
Why did elves in general have so few children, I'm as much in the dark as you are, hope someone can tell us.
Ravenna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2002, 10:21 AM   #3
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,850
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

They surely didn't want to spend all their time raising children. Just like humans...is there many who have children as long as they can? It's also stated somewhere that elves usually only had children in the first few years of marraige. Keep in mind that 'few' is in relationship to an elf's lifespan.
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2002, 10:28 AM   #4
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

It's my understanding that Elves have just a few children because the parents must give up part of their Fea (spirit) for the new child.

I have also heard that They tend to have them in the 1st few years of marriage, but Elrond's sons are about 100 years older than Arwen, so this is not set in granite.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2002, 02:19 PM   #5
Fingolfin of the Noldor
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NH
Posts: 63
Fingolfin of the Noldor has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Why did elves in general have so few children, I'm as much in the dark as you are, hope someone can tell us.

I have posted before on this subject

In regard to Elvish birthrates and sexual drive a text entitled The Laws and Customs among the Eldar gives the fullest account. Here is a rather longish, but I think good summary excerpt:

Quote:
It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives. But this is not so. For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless and ages also. Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses nd moods of their bodies change.
...
Also the Eldar say that in the begetting, and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the Eldar brought forth few children...

But at whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding. For with regard to generation the power and the will are not amoung the Eldar distinguishable. Doubtless they wwould retain for many ages the power, if the will and desire were not satisfied; but with the exercise of the power the desire soon ceases and the mind turns to other things.
Morgoth's Ring pg 212-3
__________________
Sailhand of the Mariners' Guild
Fingolfin of the Noldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2002, 03:43 PM   #6
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

So, basically, once they've had children the desire for children is then satisfied, and their bodies respond to that and they have no more.

Interesting, Fingolfin. Thank You.

[ August 16, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2002, 01:59 PM   #7
Baran
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Mordor/Lothlorien
Posts: 71
Baran has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Tolkien didn't write to much about the sex life of the elves, but I consider it safe to assume that they had working methods to avoid pregnancy.
Baran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2002, 05:06 PM   #8
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

Well, we actually discussed that here.

Elven reproduction

Basically, we had to draw conclusions because Tolkien is not real direct on this issue, but most of us agreed that Elven Maids are able to choose to menstruate or choose not to. That is all the birth control that is necessary.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2002, 07:42 PM   #9
steve
Wight
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia
Posts: 191
steve has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to steve
Silmaril

Everythign you have said may be true, but a main consern of their would have to be population, because as it is said elves dont die of natuial causes, they must be killed to die, so therefor if to many elven families had to many children overpopulation and starvation would become rampant in the elven society which would therefor brind their civlization down
__________________
MAGIC SHOP!
Spells of Mass Destruction
20% off! Today Only!
steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2002, 08:05 AM   #10
Dimaldaeon
Wight
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Ireland & damn proud of it.
Posts: 125
Dimaldaeon has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Dimaldaeon Send a message via AIM to Dimaldaeon
Sting

It seems strange the Gil-Galad as a king did not have children, normally it is a royal duty to provide an heir (Conchober sent men all over Ireland to find a wife for CúChulainn so that he would have an heir) of course elves may have been more open minded about this or perhaps Gil-Galad could sense that dark times were ahead and he did not want a wife or child to suffer (Finrod Felagund said something like this when he was asked why he never married).
__________________
Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush

You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth
Dimaldaeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2002, 03:52 PM   #11
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

I would agree with you,Dimaldaeon. It Does seem strange that a king would not marry and produce an heir. But then we are talking about Elves. It seems not to be too important an issue for them. Marriage in general seems not to be an important issue for Elves. If you find a spouse, good for you, if not, you weren't really looking for one anyway.

I don't imagine there was a shortage of prospective candidates to rein in his place. An heir is therefore unnecessary.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 10:24 PM   #12
Eol
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og
Posts: 306
Eol has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Finrod Felagund said something like this when he was asked why he never married).
Actually, finrod did not marry because he had a lady love in valinor whom he would never see while on Beleriand. Page 130 in The Sil, last paragraph for the direct quote.


To remain on topic, all you can do is speculate how the who children thing went. For all we know, they could have been as the Men, however more cautious. For all we know, the stork could have brought the children.....hm maybe not.
__________________
Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body
Eol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2002, 07:00 AM   #13
Frodo Baggins
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water
Posts: 606
Frodo Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Well< it would have been "legal" for Elrond to be Gil-Galad's heir anyway. They were cousins.
__________________
"I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."
Frodo Baggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2002, 01:46 AM   #14
mfeltes
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

Quote:
It's my understanding that Elves have just a few children because the parents must give up part of their Fea (spirit) for the new child.
This is backed up by the fate of Feanor's mother, who died from passing on so much of her spirit into him. Sorry about the lack of quotage or proper names; my brother has my copy of the Silmarillion.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:24 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.