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Old 01-28-2009, 01:02 AM   #1
Tuor in Gondolin
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Middle-earth Bad Popularity Cup

How about a contest along the lines of the esteemed
Middle Earth popularity Cup ?
===========================================
Voting rules:
Voting could be allowed to continue for approx. 24 hours. If there's a tie then the earlier vote getting to the tie would be the tiebreaker.
===========================================

I'd suggest considerations for voting be along the lines of a beauty
pageant. WHAT! Well, I mean to consider various aspects of the characters.
For example, when I used to watch some of it, the Miss America pageant
had talent (but then so does Miss Alaska- Sarah Palin plays a flute ),
swimsuit competition, and at one time questions. So you might
consider a)fighting prowess b)"personality" c)survival intelligence (think
Odysseus)
while voting. Thus, it's not INCONCEIVABLE (assuming that word means what you think) to choose, say, Bert over the Watcher in the Water.
============================================
I'll wait a while to see if there are suggestions to add/replace
the candidates below. Btw, Ungoliant and balrogs weren't included
since it seemed they might be too puisant (but I'm open to
additions/changes).
============================================
(5) Ancalagon the Black vs. Carcharoth (7)
(4)King of the Dead vs. Eol (4)
(6) Scatha the Worm vs. Shelob (3)
(3) the white cats (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Tom (7)

(7) Smaug vs. Drauglin (2)
(3) Old Man Willow vs. Master of Laketown (3)
(4) Maeglin vs. The Witch King (8)
(3)Watcher in the Water vs. Sauron (5)

(2) The Black Cat (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Ar-Pharazon (6)
(6) Glaurung vs. Thuringwethil (2)
(2) Golfimbul vs. Bill Ferny (7)
(1) The Great Goblin vs. William (6)

(2) Gorbag vs. Shagrat (3)
(5) Grima Wormtongue vs. Queen Beruthiel (3)
(2) Bolg vs. Morgoth (7)
(4) Azog vs. Grishnakh (2)

Well, here's the revised list.
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Old 01-28-2009, 08:18 AM   #2
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Well, that sounds nice. But won't it be best if we just voted for whom we like more?
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Old 01-28-2009, 02:40 PM   #3
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An evil spawn of the popularity thread. Nice.

After a quick glance in an online dictionary, it is my opinion that a few puisant characters wouldn't be out of place at all. Therefore I'm in favour of the inclusion of Morgoth, Sauron, The Witch King, Ungoliant etc. as long as we don't have to picture them in a swimming suit that is. Maybe there should be room for an Elvish bad boy as well, like Maeglin or his daddy Eöl the Dark Elf? And the Mouth of Sauron perhaps?
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Old 01-28-2009, 02:58 PM   #4
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Quote:
Well, that sounds nice. But won't it be best if we just voted for whom we like more?
That works for me.


Quote:
After a quick glance in an online dictionary, it is my opinion that a few puisant characters wouldn't be out of place at all. Therefore I'm in favour of the inclusion of Morgoth, Sauron, The Witch King, Ungoliant etc. as long as we don't have to picture them in a swimming suit that is. Maybe there should be room for an Elvish bad boy as well, like Maeglin or his daddy Eöl the Dark Elf? And the Mouth of Sauron perhaps?
Okay. I'm working for a bit but will adjust candidates (except that I have to
keep Rosenkrantz and Gildenstern (Gorbag and Shagrat) in.

P.S. I forgot about that wild and crazy father-son duo.
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Old 01-28-2009, 04:21 PM   #5
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(5) Ancalagon the Black vs. Carcharoth (7)
(4) King of the Dead vs. Eol (4)
(6) Scatha the Worm vs. Shelob (3)
(3) the white cats (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Tom (7)

(7) Smaug vs. Drauglin (2)
(3) Old Man Willow vs. Master of Laketown (3)
(4) Maeglin vs. The Witch King (8)
(3) Watcher in the Water vs. Sauron (5)

(2) The Black Cat (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Ar-Pharazon (6)
(6) Glaurung vs. Thuringwethil (2)
(2) Golfimbul vs. Bill Ferny (7)
(1) The Great Goblin vs. William (6)

(2) Gorbag vs. Shagrat (3)
(5) Grima Wormtongue vs. Queen Beruthiel (3)
(2) Bolg vs. Morgoth (7)
(4) Azog vs. Grishnakh (2)

Well, here's the revised list.
First up, in this rather dark popularity contest:

Ancalagon the Black vs. Carcharoth

Voting is open into Friday morning, since this is
being posted P.M. Eastern Standard Time.

Oh, and of course, voting should be done with 2 +s and bold captions.
ex. + + The Great Goblin
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:42 PM   #6
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++ Ancalagon the Black

A dragon unfairly relegated to a paragraph. Love the name.
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Old 01-28-2009, 08:54 PM   #7
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++Carcharoth.

How else do you expect a Werewolf player to vote?
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Old 01-28-2009, 11:17 PM   #8
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I tend to agree with Morthonon about
the worm's cool name, but then again
Carcharoth , in more ways then one,
had an interesting appetite, first elf and
man protein and then a simaril...which of course
led to a great Beren putdown of Thengol.
This will take some thought.
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Old 01-29-2009, 05:35 AM   #9
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When it comes to asking me, while I agree with Morth about Calak's name, I think Carcharoth's name is also pretty cool. It exactly expresses what it means (okay, well, Tolkien was the linguist here, so it's not exactly the poor beast's doing), but again, he is nice.

++Carcharoth, the cute little dog... wrrau

I have to say, this is good for the opening match - because as far as I look, further on, there will be some of my favourites for whom I will fight to my death!!!

Yay, people, actually, I maybe like this game more than WW

Okay...

But hey, why not? Is there something bad about it? Thread like a thread.
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Old 01-29-2009, 05:46 AM   #10
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++Carcharoth

Werewolves are cool, dragons are not.
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:35 AM   #11
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++Carcharoth.

Ancalagon died from a Silmaril (we think). Carcharoth died from a Silmaril and the teeth and claws of Huan.
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:52 AM   #12
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Yes. Sorry about the dragon, but there are some
more candidates, including one with a rather
biting sense of humor.

+ + Carcharoth
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:08 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agan
Werewolves are cool, dragons are not.
The exact opposite for me. Werewolves are cool only in dark Transilvanian forests. Dragons are cool wherever they are.

++ Ancalagon the Black
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:37 AM   #14
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The exact opposite for me. Werewolves are cool only in dark Transilvanian forests. Dragons are cool wherever they are.
That's true - Dragons are cool. However, old Carkey is still better for me than old Ankey, most of all probably because I know basically nothing about old Ankey except that he existed. Okay, when I try to imagine him, he might have been really cool - especially if he was really black and spitting some nicely-coloured flames (red, then green, or even blue)... But in general, as with Dragons, the Dragon I liked the most was Smaug. Then Scatha. Then Glaurung, who had a fascinating personality (literally), however he was a stupid and lame worm (both the adjectives emphasising the word "worm". It's not that he would be stupid or anything, and it was Brandir who was lame around there). Dragons need wings! (in contrary to some other flame-using creatures I might recall) Calkie, like I said, was given too little space (although sometimes it rouses one's imagination when you just hear very little about somebody, but this was not the case). Too bad for him.

Perhaps he will find himself more popularity elsewhere. Long live for your washing machine - your Calgon!
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:23 AM   #15
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Ancalagon is completely useless. Morgoth must've been fuming at his incompetence. Despite being a monstrous fire-spitting dragon big enough to annihilate Thangorodrim when crashing down on them he's still not able to incinerate a flying ship presumably made of wood.

So, ++ Carcaroth

I like the idea that Morgoth's fortress is guarded by a bad-*** guard dog. It seems fitting somehow.

And Legate, I would think Scatha was flightless as well, being a "worm" much like Glaurung.
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:53 AM   #16
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Ancalagon is completely useless. Morgoth must've been fuming at his incompetence. Despite being a monstrous fire-spitting dragon big enough to annihilate Thangorodrim when crashing down on them he's still not able to incinerate a flying ship presumably made of wood.
I would not be so judging - at least when it comes to the ship. Wasn't the ship supposed to be made of mithril? That would defend poor Lakky a little.

Quote:
And Legate, I would think Scatha was flightless as well, being a "worm" much like Glaurung.
Oh yes, he was. But he was cool, and he was more snakelike, I think. Or lizard-like, in the sense of this agile lizard. Glaurung was big and slooow.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:49 AM   #17
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++Carcharoth

Werewolves are cool, dragons are not.
Surely that depends on whether the dragon were a cold-drake or a fire-drake - and on the werewolf. Some werewolves are inherently cooler than others
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:40 PM   #18
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Eye

I somehow believe that if Ancalagon wins this, Christopher Tolkien will suddenly find a page of notes detailing how he was the biggest baddest dragon ever, and how he drove back the forces of the Valar but was somehow slain by a lucky cheap-shot from Earendil.

It's worth a shot, right?

++Ancalagon
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:52 PM   #19
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I don't actually like either of them very much. I know too little of Ancalagon to like or dislike him and Carcharoth is kind of cool but he also always kind of annoyed me because he struck me as a rather stupid animal.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:54 PM   #20
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Ancalagan and Carcharoth meet in the first round? Inconceivable! I call the seeding system into question!

This is a tough one indeed. Both dragons and werewolves are pretty darn cool, and Ancalagon and Carcharoth represent the top notch of each species. I think I'll go with

++Carcharoth.

He at least has some character.
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:52 PM   #21
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Surely that depends on whether the dragon were a cold-drake or a fire-drake - and on the werewolf. Some werewolves are inherently cooler than others
Nope, for me it doesn't. I don't like dragons in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macalaure View Post
Ancalagan and Carcharoth meet in the first round? Inconceivable! I call the seeding system into question!
Don't complain - skippy was much more evil.
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:34 PM   #22
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I would not be so judging - at least when it comes to the ship. Wasn't the ship supposed to be made of mithril? That would defend poor Lakky a little.
It was made OF.... (drum roll).... birch from Nimbrethil.
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:42 PM   #23
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It was made OF.... (drum roll).... birch from Nimbrethil.
Hmm, I would not be so sure. At least according to the source I have in mind:

Quote:
Eärendil was a mariner
that tarried in Arvernien;
he built a boat of timber felled
in Nimbrethil to journey in
as you say, HOWEVER:

Quote:
A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elven-glass
with shining prow; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore on silver mast:
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame
to gleam thereon by Elbereth
herself was set, who thither came
and wings immortal made for him,
and laid on him undying doom,
to sail the shoreless skies and come
behind the Sun and light of Moon.
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:53 PM   #24
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I never really liked Carcharoth (and the first time I read his name I was reminded of a Great White Shark, which I think is overrated too).

++Ancalagon
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:09 PM   #25
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Oh, this is soo wrong!

But anyway, let's gather under the banner of Ancalagon the Black! Everyone! It's the last stand!

++ Ancalagon

Werewolf is a game, dragons are for real!
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:11 PM   #26
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By Macalaure
Quote:
Ancalagan and Carcharoth meet in the first round? Inconceivable! I call the seeding system into question!
Hee , Hee! Actually, pretty much deliberate. I tend to
not like seedings like in the NCAA's basketball tournament,
where you get too many mismatches early. Besides, this
way Golfimbul or Bill Ferny get to advance.

Well, looking ahead I have to go now to check out
101 Things to do with Dead Cats.

Oh wait! What if the cats win!

So far
Carcharoth 7
Ancalagon 5
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:35 PM   #27
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Hmm, I would not be so sure. At least according to the source I have in mind:



as you say, HOWEVER:
Aha. Thanks. I had forgotten about that.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:55 PM   #28
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But anyway, let's gather under the banner of Ancalagon the Black! Everyone! It's the last stand!
Hear ye! Hear ye all!
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Old 01-29-2009, 05:47 PM   #29
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As it surprisingly looks like the voting round is not over, then let me specify my call why you all should vote for Ancalagon by just rephrasing my earlier one.

Werefolves are game, humans (and elves, and...) are game to the dragons...
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:18 PM   #30
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As Nogrod correctly notes, it's been over one day
voting, since I started a bit early, and since there would need to
be three more votes for the worm to prevail, so
voting seems over now, therefore the final for the first bout is

Carcharoth 7
Ancalagon 5


Ancalagon was heard to fume:
"Youz ain't seen the last of us drakes.
Wait until me mates from Erebor
and Thangorodrim gets here.
We hates werewolves, we hates 'em forever!"

Next round (one day to vote, I'll try to be more on time):
King of the Dead vs. Eol

On their plus sides Eol listened to his mum, and the
King of the Dead, he, ah.............
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:49 PM   #31
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No equivocations here...

++Eol

One of the most complex and intriguing characters of the Silmarillion, and far more interesting than those prissy Noldor.
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Old 01-30-2009, 05:20 AM   #32
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Eöl was a jerk, but at least he managed to produce a few cool swords and a cool son.

King of the Dead, well, he's kind of cool but there's too little of him for him to really make an impression. And after his horrible performance in the movies, I'm not sure I could be persuaded to vote him.

Looks like another round of no-voting for me...
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:21 AM   #33
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Eöl was not actually a character I would like. He was... weird. He was one of these disgusting dotards from the Sil (by the others, I am thinking about Húrin, for example - when he returned back from Angband). He was something like Denethor (the Steward).

The King of the Dead is disgraced in my eyes - by his portrayal in the movies. But hey! I am certain he did not look like that, he was neither green (not even a little... bah, this joke is getting a bit too common to be funny), nor a transparent skeleton with eyes like Cpt. Barbossa (in fact, they all look like the undead Pirates from Caribbean).

But as I wanted to be objective, I have read all the places where I thought there might be something about him in particular, and when it comes to his looks, I think I might quite like him. He had a spear, obviously.
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And thereupon the King of the Dead stood out before the host and broke his spear and cast it down. Then he bowed low and turned away; and swiftly the whole grey host drew off and vanished like a mist that is driven back by a sudden wind; and it seemed to me that I awoke from a dream.
But otherwise:
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I see shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night.
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I will tell you enough for your peace; for I felt not the horror, and I feared not the shadows of Men, powerless and frail as I deemed them.
Hmm. I think I could vote the King of the Dead. Also because his past was quite cool (these Men of the White Mountains), and also, I think it may be a little compensation for what PJ did to that poor guy in the movies...
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:26 AM   #34
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:59 AM   #35
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Eol is an interesting character, but he made
a series of wrong decisions, including a semi-forced marriage.
Whereas the King of the Dead made one decision
(arguably a rational one) to not join in an attack against
a maia with a potent army and subsequently he and his
people suffered centuries of mental torment. He seems
more sympathetic, so I think I'll go along with the
thinking of the Legate of Amon Lanc and help
rehabilitate PJ's green slime:

+ + King of the Dead

Oh, and he did freak out that drunken cheeky Rohan noble.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:07 AM   #36
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Oh, and he did freak out that drunken cheeky Rohan noble.
That's quite true. Yea, so:

++ King of the Dead

Besides, the way he was before he was cursed, he reminds me of Nazgul before they became Wraiths - I mean, like, when they were still living Men. I always liked this idea of what they may have been during their lives.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:20 AM   #37
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That whole Army of the Dead thing I like to ignore, pretending it didn't exist. It's silly and my least favourite part of the whole trilogy.

Eöl the Dark Elf is great though with his webs of enchantment, bad boy persona and frequent visits to Nogrod and Belegost. No wonder The White Lady fell for him after a life among the priggish Noldor. I wish there were more info on him.

++Eöl

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Don't complain - skippy was much more evil.
Hey now, I'm just a victim of inevitable consequences or ill-fated coincidences. Besides, did I ever beat up puppy-dogs or rob old ladies? That's right, I didn't!
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:27 PM   #38
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Eöl was a jerk, but at least he managed to produce a few cool swords and a cool son.
My words as well...

Now, how about we throw both these contestants away and bring Ancalagon back? That would be fair.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:39 PM   #39
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I'm also attaching myself to Skip here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip spence View Post
That whole Army of the Dead thing I like to ignore, pretending it didn't exist. It's silly and my least favourite part of the whole trilogy.
In the movie-version the army of the dead was just an annoying Deus ex machina, but it was something like that in the books as well. Using a Finnish expression, it was "glued over" the story eg. not an inherent part of it.

I thought the army of the dead cool and great at twelve but from that on I've learned better...

So for me it will be

++ Eöl

Even if I would actually vote for Ancalagon over Eöl at any moment, without hesitation...
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:57 PM   #40
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I'm also attaching myself to Skip here:
In the movie-version the army of the dead was just an annoying Deus ex machina, but it was something like that in the books as well. Using a Finnish expression, it was "glued over" the story eg. not an inherent part of it.
Nonsense! Why is it so bad? Come on, it was foreseen there and all sorts of these things, what would you like to have, four and half Dúnedain arriving from the North just to make the army of Rohirrim four and half men stronger, for no particular reason, much like the so-called Elves in the movie at Helm's Deep? Bah! The Oathbreakers were cool, and this Grey Company, although it never interested me, to be honest, as there's really hardly anything about their doings in the books, fits there. Imagine Gimli and Legolas charging onto the Mordor armies on Pelennor along with the Rohirrim. Impossible! The whole passage through the Paths of the Dead, and dealing with the Corsairs was quite good - and it would have been probably even better if we could learn more of it there, true. I think the problem of it being deus-ex-machinish is just in that there was too little space given to this episode (of course, the book is not inflatable, or at least should not be, unlike many other, especially fantasy books we can see today), so it had to be sort of cut short: Dead came, Corsairs are finished. One or two pages of maneuvering around Pelargir would have been good as well. But actually, when I read that part now, I am quite content even with this way of using it.

That's not to say anything of Ancalagon. I would have probably chosen him over Eöl as well. But there surely will be enough dragons... (and just as Nogrod said, they are for real. Quite. )
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