The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-17-2020, 01:29 PM   #1
Haunting Spirit
Victariongreyjoy's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 83
Victariongreyjoy has just left Hobbiton.
Why was Sauron so powerful during his war against Celebrimbor and the elves?

In the books, there was not mention of any forces except orcs that he used against Eregion. We would think Celebrimbor and the Noldor would have no problem crushing the orcs. Or were the numbers of Sauron's orcs just too massive for them to overcome?
Victariongreyjoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 01:44 PM   #2
Gruesome Spectre
Inziladun's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,027
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
The latter. Quantity often beats quality, exampled by Isildur's war-hardened party being overcome by a superior force of inferior fighters.
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 03:27 PM   #3
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Huinesoron's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,391
Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Also, Sauron knew the city, and - given how much we know Celebrimbor worked with "Annatar" - it's possible he actually had a hand in building its defences. Which certainly gives him an advantage when it comes to pulling them back down.

Huinesoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2020, 05:25 AM   #4
Gardener of Gamwich
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: England
Posts: 7
Gardener of Gamwich has just left Hobbiton.
From Appendix B: "The Tale of Years", Second Age:

c. 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.

c. 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.

c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dűr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.

1693 War of Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.

1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.

1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.

Is it worth considering that this is the first time Sauron has gone to war wielding the power of the One Ring?

With its power he will only be defeated by the might of Numenor (twice), by the Last Alliance and finally through the Ring's destruction.

Near the beginning of the same section of Appendix B we are told, "Later, some of the Noldor went to Eregion..."

Once Eregion was founded and began its prosperous partnership with Durin's Folk in Moria there may have been more migration there from Lindon. But are we ever given any information regarding its population at the beginning of Sauron's attack?

In Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn we learn that,"When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his guise fell and his wrath was revealed; and gathering a great force he moved over Calenardhon (Rohan) to the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695. When news of this reached Gil-galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion."

Certainly Gil-galad did not deem there to be enough elves to defend Eregion without help. As it turned out even Elrond's assistance wasn't enough.

It could be argued that Sauron, with an over-whelming force of orcs and trolls, simply rolled over the region. But should we not also consider the impact of the One Ring. Surely it played a role. But what?

We know from LoTR that Sauron could whip his troops up into a fighting frenzy without the Ring, so what would have been the added impact of his bearing it into battle that first time. I would love to hear other people's thoughts as to how the power of the One Ring would have manifested itself when it was on Sauron's finger.
Gardener of Gamwich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2020, 08:26 AM   #5
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,071
Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Gardener, you pose some good questions.

Clearly, Sauron's forces in the Second Age were overwhelming, at least until the Numenoreans came into the picture. Then Numenor's overwhelming force outweighed Sauron's overwhelming force regardless of the Ring. Even after Numenor fell, the West was able to scrape together sufficient force to defeat Sauron, again with the Ring.

To repeat comments from an earlier thread, found here, JRRT says in Letter 131 that the One "contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them." But the Elves simply took off their Rings, so, other than perhaps control over the Ringwraiths (it seems that the One did not effectively control the Dwarves that wore the Seven), the effect of the Ring was really minimal during the wars of the Second Age.

In contrast, during the Third Age, Rivendell and Lorien may have relied heavily upon the power of the Elven Rings to establish and maintain those realms and if Sauron recovered the One, his force would have been enough to defeat Men with the Elves diminished due to the loss of the powers or Sauron's control of their Rings.
Beleriand, Beleriand,
the borders of the Elven-land.
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2020, 09:36 AM   #6
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,010
Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Galin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Numenor plus Glorfindel, as the latter was "(though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador."

Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2020, 09:37 AM   #7
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,125
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I agree, but would add that the Nine were not yet Ringwraiths at the time of the First War of the Rings; they hadn't yet been en-wraithened by long possession. But they were "kings, warriors and sorcerors," now wielding Rings of Power.....

In fact, it's not entirely clear when Sauron handed out the Nine and the Seven; he didn't even have them until after he sacked Eregion.
“It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:56 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.