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Old 07-08-2015, 01:43 AM   #1
Ivriniel
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Did Frodo REALLY volunteer to Bear the Ring?

Did Frodo really volunteer for the Quest, as if truly he could have been 'self-sacrificing' when he got up at the Council of Elrond.

I don't buy it. I never have, down deep. I mistrusted Frodo in Rivendell, from the beginning. Am I being too hard on Frodo? Or Am I being wise?

what do you guys think and why?
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Old 07-08-2015, 03:41 AM   #2
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I don't buy it. I never have, down deep. I mistrusted Frodo in Rivendell, from the beginning. Am I being too hard on Frodo? Or Am I being wise?
I never really thought about it. His intentions seemed good, considering what he endured en-route to Orodruin.

In any event, if a person does the right thing for the wrong reasons, they're still doing the right thing.
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Old 07-08-2015, 03:47 AM   #3
Ivriniel
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I never really thought about it. His intentions seemed good, considering what he endured en-route to Orodruin.

In any event, if a person does the right thing for the wrong reasons, they're still doing the right thing.
Hey there

I dunno.....how can you do anything on-track for any 'right' thing, when you don't even know you're 'off track', especially when in the brewing underlayers Frodo had been chatting with Nazgul, and was then left with a bit of 'fading' in his arm in Rivendell (Gandalf spotted it at the bedside). All seemed a bit 'wraith-ish' at the time, I remember. He was having trouble keeping the ring off his finger by the time he left the Shire. He was already well on the way to 'creepy' by Rivendell.

I don't quite know what to make of Frodo offering the Ring to Galadriel. And running off to Mordor on his own. It all just felt wrong (as in, great story, but it had undertones of 'o-oh, Frodo's wraith-ising again).....

I reckon he didn't want to part with his 'Precious' by Rivendell, and so 'offered' to go on the Quest, and as said in the Silmarillion (narrative) about Sauron after the War of Wrath, that Sauron '....lied even unto himself....' in falsely pleading for Mercy from the Valar. The Bad Boi of LotR then goes to the local Brand Name Elvish clothing store, dons some nice smelling Elvish aftershave (wait, they don't shave) and becomes Annatar "Lord of Gifts".

Lord.....of ha? Gifts? Lord of them.... It was weirdo creepy and somehow seemed just the same as Frodo in the Meeting at Rivendell. Does anyone know what I mean when I say "it all Stank (c.f. stank) of Vanity?

Last edited by Ivriniel; 07-08-2015 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 07-08-2015, 03:53 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivriniel View Post
Did Frodo really volunteer for the Quest, as if truly he could have been 'self-sacrificing' when he got up at the Council of Elrond.

I don't buy it. I never have, down deep. I mistrusted Frodo in Rivendell, from the beginning. Am I being too hard on Frodo? Or Am I being wise?

what do you guys think and why?
I'm not really sure what you're getting at, Ivriniel.

If you have some Evil!Frodo theory that he had no intention of doing the right thing but was planning a nefarious double-cross (or something)- well, you need to come up with actual evidence. (I know I keep saying this kind of thing, but it does seem to me that people at times almost forget that fictional characters- or places, or things- cannot have a "real" existence independent of anything written about them- i.e. they are not historical). Besides, motives aside, the fact is that he *did* volunteer, according to the text of "The Lord of the Rings".

Tolkien does of course famously play with the "translator conceit", implying that there *is* a "real" version out there- but, again, a conceit is all it is. Now, if your theory is that Frodo falsified the account of what happened at the Council in the Red Book in order to make himself look better, then you need to show some reason why you think we're meant to infer this.

And if neither of those is what you were getting at, I apologise for wasting your time- but I do also think you could be a bit clearer.
Edit: x'd with Andsigil and Ivriniel.
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Old 07-08-2015, 03:56 AM   #5
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I'm not really sure what you're getting at, Ivriniel.

If you have some Evil!Frodo theory that he had no intention of doing the right thing but was planning a nefarious double-cross (or something)- well, you need to come up with actual evidence. (I know I keep saying this kind of thing, but it does seem to me that people at times almost forget that fictional characters- or places, or things- cannot have a "real" existence independent of anything written about them- i.e. they are not historical). Besides, motives aside, the fact is that he *did* volunteer, according to the text of "The Lord of the Rings".

Tolkien does of course famously play with the "translator conceit", implying that there *is* a "real" version out there- but, again, a conceit is all it is. Now, if your theory is that Frodo falsified the account of what happened at the Council in the Red Book in order to make himself look better, then you need to show some reason why you think we're meant to infer this.

And if neither of those is what you were getting at, I apologise for wasting your time- but I do also think you could be a bit clearer.
Hi Nerwen I'm gunna wait a little bit before rolling out the trolleys with quotes n evidence.....I wanna wait to see what people reckon first.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:01 AM   #6
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Okay, so you did mean what I suggested.

So, what I said, then. All you have there is how it (the scene in Rivendell) "feels" to you, and that is purely subjective. It does not "feel" like that to me, for example.

X'd with Ivriniel again.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:05 AM   #7
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Okay, so you did mean what I suggested.

So, what I said, then. All you have there is how it (the scene in Rivendell) "feels" to you, and that is purely subjective. It does not "feel" like that to me, for example.

X'd with Ivriniel again.
....bring it!!!! hahaha it's good stuff. I've got a truck load more, but I wanna wait to see how people sit with it. Can up or down the ante on lots of themes....as happens.

Frodo has a metaphysical Stench that can be smelled at the far ends of the Universe.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:12 AM   #8
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You have "quotes n evidence" that Frodo was planning a double-cross at that time?
Really?

I'd certainly be intererested to hear what they are, but I will say now that- as with the "Arkensil" case, I believe this come under the "extraordinary claims" principle. That is, your evidence had better be *good*.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:16 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
You have "quotes n evidence" that Frodo was planning a double-cross at that time?
Really?

I'd certainly be intererested to hear what they are, but I will say now that- as with the "Arkensil" case, I believe this come under the "extraordinary claims" principle. That is, your evidence had better be *good*.
hahaha erm, maybe from the Black Silmarilian (if I can find an English version anywhere - know one?). Otherwise, all my materials are inferential, context-dependent analyses of the mythology, with some juxtapositioning. There are facets from the mythology, all the way through, in fact of characters I can integrate into prose to elucidate the point.

the basic point: Frodo was "...lying even unto himself..." at The Council of Elrond, and that by the time the 'Precious' word or actual conscious manifestations of Sauronic perversion had begun to express themselves (certainly, by the time we're at the Emyn Muil), already, significant changes had occurred....

Last edited by Ivriniel; 07-08-2015 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:20 AM   #10
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It was well already "too late" for Frodo, by Rivendell. Without Cosmic Intervention (Deus Ex Machina) he was already corrupted and Sauronic purpose fulfilled.

The outcome of TA was an Intervention-Eru that saved Middle Earth, vanquished Sauron (are we sure that Palanir got wrecked at Barad Dur?) and all would have been lost-WITHOUT Eru intervening. Frodo failed by Rivendell

Last edited by Ivriniel; 07-08-2015 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:25 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivriniel View Post
hahaha erm, maybe from the Black Silmarilian (if I can find an English version anywhere - know one?). Otherwise, all my materials are inferential, context-dependent analyses of the mythology, with some juxtapositioning. There are facets from the mythology, all the way through, in fact of characters I can integrate into prose to elucidate the point.

the basic point: Frodo was "...lying even unto himself..." at The Council of Elrond, and that by the time the 'Precious' word or actual conscious manifestations of Sauronic had begun to express themselves (certainly, by the time we're at the Emyn Muil), already, significant changes had occurred....
But, hang on, are you putting this forward as an actual theory, or just your own personal "head-canon"? Because what you're describing here certainly sounds more like what I would call head-canon-level "evidence".
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Last edited by Nerwen; 07-08-2015 at 04:29 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:03 AM   #12
Ivriniel
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...snip-->Tolkien does of course famously play with the "translator conceit", implying that there *is* a "real" version out there- but, again, a conceit is all it is. Now, if your theory is that Frodo falsified the account of what happened at the Council in the Red Book in order to make himself look better, then you need to show some reason why you think we're meant to infer this.

And if neither of those is what you were getting at, I apologise for wasting your time- but I do also think you could be a bit clearer.
Edit: x'd with Andsigil and Ivriniel.
That's really interesting materials........I really love the context- or narrative- or positioning of where you're going. I'm going to ponder this one...
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