The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Movies
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-18-2003, 10:50 PM   #1
Shy Hobbit
Wight
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 201
Shy Hobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting Pippin Poking

"Get up!"<P>Was I the only one extremely disappointed in Gandalf's reaction when Pippin swears service to Denethor? This probably bothers me the most among the various changes in the film. I just felt it was extremely out of character, totally spoiled the moment for me
__________________
Make Middle-Earth a friendlier place, hug a balrog today!

~The Fellowship of the King~
Shy Hobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2003, 11:02 PM   #2
Orual
Speaker of the Dead
 
Orual's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Superbia
Posts: 901
Orual has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I agree. It is such a touching moment, such a selfless gesture on Pippin's part, it seemed needlessly callous of Gandalf to ruin it. It was out-of-character, and, on a more basic level, just mean. Pippin really meant it, and it was his way of reconciling himself with the fact that Boromir died to save him.
__________________
"Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!"
--Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"
Orual is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2003, 04:45 AM   #3
TealDude4
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 42
TealDude4 has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I kind of like Gandy the Grey better than Gandy the White because Gandy the White seems to have a 'holier than thou' attitude at times. I mean, I know he is one of the greatest of the Maiar, but please.
__________________
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come, when the courage of men fail. And we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of fellowship. But it is not this day. This day, we fight!"
TealDude4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2003, 06:28 AM   #4
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

This is the key point of the book where we begin to see<P>1/ Pippin growing up<BR>2/ Gandalf respecting Pippin for who he is, and not a fool of a took<P>So yes, it did hurt a bit watching this, but Jackson has changed Denethor's character somewhat, so he has somewhat changed Gandalf's opinion towards him, thus he is not too happy about Pippin pledging his allegiance.
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2003, 03:53 PM   #5
Sapphire_Flame
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Sapphire_Flame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The World That Never Was
Posts: 1,312
Sapphire_Flame has just left Hobbiton.
The Eye

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I kind of like Gandy the Grey better than Gandy the White<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gandy the White is crankier. Gimli said that himself.<P>But, WAAA! Gandalf is such a butt! I really do hate him now, he's always so mean to Pippin! Here Pip does this really selfless thing, showing his growing maturity, and all Gandalf can do is poke him with his staff! *mutter, fume* Stupid Gandalf....<P>Abedithon le,<P>~*~Aranel~*~
__________________
The Hitchhiking Ghost
Sapphire_Flame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2003, 03:56 PM   #6
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,990
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting

You'll regret saying "Stupid Gandalf" one day.... <P>But I do agree. I had tears in my eye when Pippin offered his services to Gondor. Just look at Billy Boyd's face, it is painted with emotion. And Gandalf completely ruins it. A ridiculous move by the scriptwriter.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2003, 04:02 PM   #7
Ainaserkewen
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Ainaserkewen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A cosmic waiting room
Posts: 766
Ainaserkewen has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Ainaserkewen
Sting

You know what...I kind of like the ironic twist Gandalf that the movies have made. Yes, he's a jerk at times, and very harsh, but I find that more believable than someone who would laugh at everything(exageration! Don't kill me) I like the no nonsense ideas Ian protrais.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'holier than thou' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, that's how I'd put it...but that's kind of a good thing in a leader, plus it's true.<P>Defending his whole poking pippin thing, the angle was that he was frustrated and thought pippin was being stupid. Plus, kicking Denethor's butt was awsome...
__________________
Solus... I'm eating chicken again.
I ate chicken yesterday and the
day before... will I be eating
chicken again tomorrow? Why am I
always eating chicken?
Ainaserkewen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2003, 05:22 PM   #8
Shy Hobbit
Wight
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 201
Shy Hobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> but Jackson has changed Denethor's character somewhat, so he has somewhat changed Gandalf's opinion towards him, thus he is not too happy about Pippin pledging his allegiance. <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In the book, he indeed thought it was foolish, but "generous deed should not be checked by cold counsel" were his words to Pippin in the book as to why he did <B>not</B> hinder it.<p>[ 6:23 PM December 19, 2003: Message edited by: Shy Hobbit ]
__________________
Make Middle-Earth a friendlier place, hug a balrog today!

~The Fellowship of the King~
Shy Hobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2003, 05:56 PM   #9
Luthien_ Tinuviel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Luthien_ Tinuviel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: A very lovely tree-hut in the Chunnel.
Posts: 804
Luthien_ Tinuviel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Luthien_ Tinuviel Send a message via MSN to Luthien_ Tinuviel
Question

I was surprised and a little disappointed, too. It seems almost that "Book Gandalf" is wiser and more farseeing than "Movie Gandalf" in some respects. I don't know whether this is just an excuse I'm creating to try to reconcile myself with this point, but I think that Gandalf's actions against Pippin's pledging allegiance could be justified thus: They made Denethor less noble in the movie, less despairing for all the right reasons interpreted in all the wrong ways, and instead just a sort of callous jerk, favortist father, self-absorbed prig and all-around hopeless pessimist who himself has a "holier than thou" complex (even in the book he does). Because of this, I figure that perhaps (in the movie version) Gandalf might have seen that Denethor would give bad orders and that having Pippin serve him would not be a favorable position, also that Pippin's humbling himself by kneeling before Denethor would stoke Denethor's ego (which is never a very good thing, seeing as it's far too large already). In the end, though, it turns out to be for the best that Pippin did what he did, so I don't know why this part had to added to the movie at all.
__________________
I am a nineteen-year-old nomad photographer who owns a lemonade stand.

You know what? I love Mip.
Luthien_ Tinuviel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2003, 06:08 PM   #10
Jjudvven
Wight
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Land to the West
Posts: 154
Jjudvven has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Jjudvven
Sting

Yeah I was getting ready for the moment from the books, and was VERY dissapointed when Gandalf smacked him. That was not well done at all. I wish they could have done that right at least.
__________________
"I don't know all of you as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve."
Jjudvven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2003, 04:49 PM   #11
doug*platypus
Delver in the Deep
 
doug*platypus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 963
doug*platypus has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I really hated the Pippin-poke when I first saw it. Although I'm sure Ian McKellen had been looking forward to poking Pippin, ever since that fool of a Took killed him in Moria, it was a terrible thing to do.<P>But I <B>don't</B> think that it was a bad decision by the filmmakers. Gandalf's opinion does not prevent any of us from feeling warmth at Pippin's noble gesture. In fact, it probably shows us better that <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Generous deed should not be checked by cold counsel. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We end up thinking "Oi! Gandalf! No!" and thus learn the lesson a little better ourselves. We also feel for Pippin and the fact that he has been publicly rebuked by his superior. A lesson for all prospective parents or employers there.<P>It is a real shame that Pippin's loyalty turned out to be misplaced, and that Gandalf although rude was proved correct. But it is a comfort to think that Faramir's life was saved by Pippin being in the right place at the right time. We see Gandalf as not being completely beyond reproach, which is important I think. True, he's one of the good guys, but we should still judge him as imperfect on the way that he treated Pippin and Denethor. <P>Watching documentaries on Peter Jackson, I have come to appreciate the amount of thought behind each of the filmmaking decisions, and the high degree of knowledge of the text. Although frequently misguided, I think that there are actually times when they got it right. And those are the times when I can understand a minor deviation from the book if it still gets the point across.
__________________
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.
doug*platypus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2003, 04:58 PM   #12
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,990
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sting

So, had it been as it was in the book, the outcome would have been worse?
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2003, 05:27 PM   #13
Silmiel of Imladris
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Silmiel of Imladris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing
Posts: 395
Silmiel of Imladris has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Silmiel of Imladris
Sting

I could take or leave this part but I think it shows that Gandalf was trying to protect Pippen. Although I really have to admit that when Gandalf hit Denethor in the face it was pretty funny, well at least I thought it was.
__________________
Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me.

Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?
Silmiel of Imladris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2003, 04:11 PM   #14
Vardadurwen
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 102
Vardadurwen has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

The way I see it, Gandalf's reaction to Pippin's act of allegiance was just a way to get some laughs out of the audience - at least, everyone in the theatre I was at laughed...except for me.<P> I didn't appreciate it. As I recall from the books (sorry, haven't read them for a year now), Gandalf was at least slightly impressed with Pippin's decision. Oh well.
__________________
'In this phial,' she said, 'is caught the light of Earendil's star....May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out...' - Galadriel

'Now there's an eye-opener and no mistake!' - Samwise Gamgee
Vardadurwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2003, 04:54 PM   #15
Theron Bugtussle
Wight
 
Theron Bugtussle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Blowing the froth off a couple in this quaint little pub in Michel Delving.
Posts: 147
Theron Bugtussle has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><I>Doug P:</I>But I don't think that it was a bad decision by the filmmakers. Gandalf's opinion does not prevent any of us from feeling warmth at Pippin's noble gesture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As a matter of fact, I think it will keep ALL the non-book readers from seeing Pippin's gesture as one of nobility and responsibility. I am surprised the scriptwriters didn't add Gandalf shouting, <I>"Pippin, you a**!"</I><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In fact, it probably shows us better that "Generous deed should not be checked by cold counsel." We end up thinking "Oi! Gandalf! No!" and thus learn the lesson a little better ourselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think the original model of the lesson (Tolkien's text) is far superior to the movie model. <P>Not to be personal in the least with my argument, but if Jackson followed your proposed model, Doug, he could have shown Galadriel, Gandalf, or Aragorn taking the One Ring for themselves. Then we would have seen a lesson better than them modeling self-restraint!<P>It was, in my opinion, a bad decision by the filmmaker/scriptwriters done intentionally to convey an entirely different attitude. Not out of professional respect as how to best represent Tolkien to today's moviegoing audience. Rather how Jackson has a 'better idea.'
__________________
For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying. -Gandalf, The Two Towers
Theron Bugtussle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:54 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.