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Old 04-19-2003, 02:35 PM   #1
Frodo Brandybuck
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Pipe What disappointed you about The Two Towers?

Was anyone else disappointed by the way the created a romance between Eowyn and Aragorn? In the book the relationship was completely 1 sided. Also the way the turned Faramir into a bad guy as if he wanted the ring?
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Old 04-19-2003, 04:00 PM   #2
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Well, I don't know. I didn't really care much about the romance between Eowyn and Aragorn, because it wasn't really a "romance". Since Eowyn was that one that was in love with Aragron, not vice versa. I was much more dissapointed about how they made what seemed like constant romance with Arwen and Aragorn, though.<P>In the books, they have nothing like that. Well, some parts are okay, but they have too much of them. I think there's some junkey romantic scenes between the two that they could have left out.
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Old 04-19-2003, 04:21 PM   #3
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Hello, Mr. Frodo Brandybuck, welcome to the Downs.<P>I didn't feel there was a need to create a 'love triangle' where none existed between Aragorn, Eowyn and Arwen. I think Tolkien's version was much more realistic and compelling, where Eowyn developed a crush on Aragorn despite knowing virtually nothing about him. <P>As for changing the personality of Faramir, I have little doubt that this is something that would have upset Tolkien, considering he said that of the characters in the LotR, Faramir was the one most like himself. (Heh, but based on his comments and letters he sounds more like Bilbo Baggins.) In any case, he loved the character Faramir, and I feel changing Faramir will also have to distort and make cartoonish the rather complex character of Denethor. <P>I am increasingly disappointed with Elijah Wood's limp characterisation of Frodo. Elijah has the charisma to carry the role, but he admitted he did not actually finish reading the Lord of the Rings. In the second movie that becomes quite clear he did not read the 'Two Towers.' The nuances of the relationship between Sam, Frodo and Gollum/Smeagol do not come out in the screenplay, and are completely missed by Elijah. <P>Part of the drama of the 'Return of the King' is in how the very strong Frodo breaks at the last minute and claims the ring. Because of the 'weak' Frodo Elijah has protrayed, this is not going to come as much of a surprise. I'm afraid Elijah is just too young to pull off the role, not in his appearance, but in his maturity as an actor. Unfortunately, this messes up the entire premise of the third book. <P>I believe Peter Jackson has spent more time on Aragorn than Frodo due to the fact that Viggo Mortensen is turning in a stellar performance. A director directs, but a <I>good</I> director takes advantage of a good performer when he has him. <P>- Maril
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Old 04-19-2003, 05:02 PM   #4
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The thing that disapointed me the most was when Faramir took the Ring and Frodo and Sam to Gondor. Jackson really changed the books. Also when the elves came to Helm's Deep. I didn't really mind about the Eowyn/Aragorn romance. I was angry about how Aragorn tried to give Arwen her pendant back.
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Old 04-20-2003, 01:45 AM   #5
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I didn't mind the whole Eowyn/Aragorn romance, but Arwen was just plain annoying.<P>Anyway the thing that REALLY got me was that then ents didn't want to go to Isengard and Pippin had to TRICK them into doing it. Its just so wrong! The ents look bad enough already(I know some people love they way the looked but I just really thought they were badly done) and the way the ents have to be tricked makes them seem to be stupid creatures that don't know what to do without the guidence of a little hobbit, which ofcourse is absolutely wrong.
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Old 04-20-2003, 09:16 AM   #6
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I loved the romance between Aragorn and Eowyn, and all the Arwen/Aragorn scenes, such as the dream sequence. The elves were a superb bonus, and Faramir was an excellent character.
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Old 04-20-2003, 02:04 PM   #7
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i was disappointed by most of it apart from gollum and helm's deep so i wont even bother to describe it. i dont think peter jacksons representation is a good one. FOTR was good, but not TTT. <P>has anyone read the letters of JRR Tolkien? well at about letter 216 or something i think, theres an enraged letter about all the things he hated in a film script and it is my personal belief that PJ modelled his film on all of the things in the letter
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Old 04-20-2003, 02:31 PM   #8
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I thought the relationship between Eowyn and Aragorn was handled well. I know Aragorn didn't express anything towards Eowyn in the book but it worked well with the change in his character of having him unsure about whether to ask Arwen to give up his mortality. There wasn't a hint of this in the book, but I think it did a lot to humanize his character. Anyone who truly loved someone would have reservations about watching them give up what she is giving up.<P>As for the letters from Tolkien, I highly doubt PJ has even read the one to which you are referring. I suspect Tolkien knew a lot about romantic literature and myth and very little about making movies. I doubt he would have approved of any movie script that made the changes that were necessary.<P>H.C.
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Old 04-20-2003, 08:45 PM   #9
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The thing that dissapointed me the most was the portrayal of Faramir. This really made me mad, and I did not like it, because it was <B>Extremely</B> different from the book. It did add a tad bit more drama, but I think if they wanted to add more drama to the film they could have done it in different ways. In the book he was not exactly a nice charater, but the tension between him and the hobbits was not like it was in the movie, it only lasted a very short time.
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Old 04-21-2003, 12:33 PM   #10
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Yup "evil Faramir" tops my list...
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Old 04-21-2003, 12:46 PM   #11
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Tolkien

Thanks 4 the welcome! So I guess everyone pretty much hated the Faramir thing and loved the romance?
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Old 04-21-2003, 12:48 PM   #12
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p.s. can someone help figure out how to put a picture on my profile?
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I HATED how PJ screwed with Faramir. He perverted him! Faramir was a good guy and PJ made him bad!
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Old 04-21-2003, 01:53 PM   #13
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So I guess everyone pretty much hated the Faramir thing <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Does that mean that I remain the sole being on this planet who loves movie Faramir and his character?
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:03 PM   #14
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I wouldn't be surprised if you were the only one, Meela. PJ did a terrible job on Faramir. He's NOT supposed to be evil. He was supposed to be stronger than Boromir; he should have been able to resist the temptation of the ring. They pretty much turned Faramir into his brother. I was really disappointed by Faramir.
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Old 04-21-2003, 04:58 PM   #15
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That they didn't stay true to the books very much. I don't think that they have to stick entirely to the books, but a little more close would've been nice. Also I was kinda mad when they didn't put Shelob in. Come to think of it, I didn't really like their mis-portral of Farimir either! But I still liked it. <p>[ April 23, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]
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Old 04-22-2003, 12:46 PM   #16
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I don't want to slate the movie too much, because it must have been a very hard job to take on, but seeing as you asked...<P>The Nazgul were kind of dissapointing. they looked more like worms to me.<P>The Treebeard bits were too short, sort of stupid and didn't make much sense. However, PJ has said there will be more of them in the extended DVD.<P>Fangorn forest looked way too fake for my liking.<P>The thing that annoyed and dissapointed me the most was the whole Faramir thing. PJ said he changed his character so it would make more sense, because if Boromir was tempted by the Ring then Faramir would be as well. I don't agree with this, because Faramir is a very different character from Boromir. I am apprehensive as to how Faramir will look in ROTK, for he is one of my favorite characters. <P>Also, the part about taking the Ring to Osgiliath was stupid because now Sauron knows exactly where the Ring is because the Nazgul saw it! I think that was a bit of a stupid mistake, because there isn't really anything to stop him going and getting it now he knows where it is. All secrecy has flown out of the window (for he thought that the Rohirrim had the Ring after they defeated the uruk hai who had Merry and Pippin.)<P>BUT I still liked the movie, not as much as FoTR, and definatley not as much as the books. Helms Deep was well done, and Gollum was good too. Not perfect but good all the same. <P>What do you think about the Ring/Osgiliath/Nazgul thing?
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Old 04-22-2003, 02:18 PM   #17
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Osgiliath was my favourite part of both movies so far. It was a brilliant addition.
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Old 04-22-2003, 04:24 PM   #18
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<I><B>ArialOsgiliath was good but I HATED how they turned Faramir into Boromir! HATED IT! </B></I>
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Old 04-22-2003, 04:24 PM   #19
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<I><B>Osgiliath was good but I HATED how they turned Faramir into Boromir! HATED IT! </B></I>
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Old 04-23-2003, 03:06 PM   #20
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I greatly disliked the whole nazgul/frodo thing in Osgiliath. It was just a little to wierd, Frodo offers the ring to the Black Rider (who doesn't call all his fellow minions to speed to Osgiliath to attack the ring-bearer!?)? I would've rather have them cut out Osgilath, make Farimir normal, then put in Shelob (the extraction of the above scences would leave enough time...). That's just my opinion though...I'm not dissing yours.
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Old 04-23-2003, 04:00 PM   #21
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Yes, I greatly disliked the part with Faramir. When I read what he was really like in the book. <P>You see, I was only in the middle of TTT when I saw the movie, and I had no idea what Faramir was like. Knowing that he was Boromir's brother, I suspected that he was a lot like Boromir. <P>So when I saw the movie the first time I really liked it and it all made sense. But then, afterwards, I finished TTT and saw the movie a few times again, and I realized what a monster they had turned Faramir into.
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Old 04-23-2003, 06:18 PM   #22
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I have to say that I liked the movie, but Gollum was not what I expected him to be. Though people may not agree I found him a bit...inane. Not the entire time though, it's just thet they seemed to have added a bit too much humour, trying to make parts funny and messing the character a bit. But it was only a slight problem. Otherwise, I loved Gollum! <P>
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Old 04-23-2003, 09:38 PM   #23
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I think movie Faramir should not be viewed as 'evil'. Try to envision him as simply being <I>more loyal to Gondor</I> and Denethor than in the book. Not only is it true, it is easier to swallow that way.
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Old 04-24-2003, 09:10 AM   #24
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Not the entire time though, it's just thet they seemed to have added a bit too much humour, trying to make parts funny and messing the character a bit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I wonder what scene you are too. I know I found him just a smidge too cute in his first schizophrenic conversation. I don't think they should have gone for a laugh here, though I thought the humour in scenes like his conversation with Sam about taters or his "juicy sweeeeet" song completely appropriate.<P>H.C.
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Old 04-24-2003, 02:23 PM   #25
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What disappointed you about The Two Towers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think the whole movie is one big disappointment. <BR>I have seen the TTT 5 times now and still I think it’s from the beginning till the end one big mess. All those changes and cuts make me feel like I’m watching a trailer of a bad movie.
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Old 04-24-2003, 04:03 PM   #26
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The part which I liked the least was the scene where Frodo offers the Ring to the Nazgul (whaaa...?). It seems to me that Frodo and Sam shouldn't have been able to get a single mile further after that.<P>I didn't like it that Faramir decided to take Frodo and Sam to Gondor. They changed his character considerably.<P>I thought Frodo was too much of a wimp.
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Old 04-24-2003, 07:33 PM   #27
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Well, I for one can live with the Faramir portrayal. Yes, he is different in character from the books, but evil? Surely not. As Tar Palantir said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think movie Faramir should not be viewed as 'evil'. Try to envision him as simply being more loyal to Gondor and Denethor than in the book. Not only is it true, it is easier to swallow that way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For all he knows when he comes across Frodo and Sam, they could be spies from Mordor. He is a Captain of Gondor and the son of the Steward. It is his duty to defend the borders of his country. Moreover, it has been decreed that anyone letting potential spies go will forfeit their life. And, to top that, he also knows that his father won't exactly be chuffed if he learns that he let the One Ring slip through his hands and head off to Mordor in the hands of two Hobbits. In film terms (and without much of the wonderful dialogue between Frodo, Sam and Faramir at Henneth Annun which it would, alas, have been impractical to include) it makes perfect sense for him to act the way he does. And yet, despite all, he does in the end let Frodo and Sam go, thus delineating his character from that of his brother. In my view, this sets things up nicely for the interaction between Faramir and his father in Rotk.<P>And I can live with Osgiliath too (particularly as the extended DVD will explain how Frodo and Sam make it back to the other side of the Anduin). Except, of course, the scene where Frodo tries to give the Ring to the Nazgul. That just doesn't work for me. <P>Other disappointments?<P>Well, the major one for me was those silly Lemming-Hyena hybrids . Don't get me wrong, I was tremendously excited when I saw that there would be Warg-riders in the film. But the Wargs themselves were a great disappointment. And I could have done without Aragorn being dragged over the cliff and ending up being nuzzled by his horse.<P>Elijah Wood rolling his eyes up for the umpteenth time. I agree with Maril that the sense, in RotK, of Frodo gradually falling apart as they near Mount Doom, and the power of his finally succumbing to the Ring, will largely be lost given the state that he has already fallen to by the end of TTT.<P>Not enough Treebeard or Ents generally. Treebeard and co being tricked into attacking Isengard. And no Huorns at Helm's Deep (although, surprisingly it seems that they may be in the extended DVD - difficult to see how the timing will work on this).<P>One Dwarf-tossing joke too many.<P>One short Dwarf joke too many.<P>Legolas shield-surfing.<P>Well, I think that's all. But, overall, I can forgive these diappointments for the great bits in the films. And there are many. And for the wonderful visualisation (the Black Gate, Edoras, Helm's Deep). And, of course, for the fanatastic work of Andy Serkis and WETA in bringing Gollum to life.
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Old 04-24-2003, 07:38 PM   #28
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Yes, the black gate was awesome.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Legolas shield-surfing <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>...and shooting his bow at the same time! Do we have a superhero in our midst? Perhaps it was to sell more Legolas figurines to his adoring fans... maybe...
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Old 04-24-2003, 08:23 PM   #29
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Tar-Palantir and The Saucepan Man,<P>What you said makes complete and total sense and I agree with it. <P>I personally saw Faramir in the movie believing that his duty was to his father: therefore bringing the Ring to his father. Yet he then realized his duty was not to his father in this case, that his duty was to Middle-Earth. If he didn't release the Halflings, Middle-Earth would be enslaved by Sauron and he, Faramir, would have failed.<P>Meela, you're not alone on this issue.<P>Osgiliath.... *muses for awhile, then sighs* I couldn't enjoy it, though it wasn't so bad that I had to close my eyes or leave the theater. At least my worst fears were relieved when on second viewing I saw that Frodo wasn't actually holding up the Ring for the Nazgul to take.<P>The Ents disappointed me. I was looking forward to their great cry and their song as they rushed to Isengard. "We have decided..." *sighs* Yes, I know what you decided, and I disagree. Why, why, why?
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Old 04-25-2003, 03:05 AM   #30
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Main thing with me is the reduction of good characters into comic relief.<BR>By the Fangorn bit Merry and Pippin have matured alot, although pippin still has his occasional moments on the whole they have grown up extremely fast so their little comic relief thing dosent seem quite right to me but I suspect I am alone on that one.<P>Gimli does NOT suit being comic relief, somehow I feel that the real Gimli would attack anyone who made him the butt of a 'short joke'.<P>Osgiliath(sp?) is also a disaster because it is stated in FotR (movie) that the wraiths "feel at all times the presence of the ring" so by the point Frodo is on top of the rubble all 9 should rightfully be swarming around him.<P>Faramir also holds no water in being redeemed and able to let the ring go. If we remember the first movie, Bilbo was the first person to give up the ring of his free will and after not seeing or hearing of it for 18 years has a little insane moment of ring lust (for lack of better name as of this moment) and Gollum still wants it after 80 years. Bilbo had extreme diffuculty in giving it up and gollum lost it yet "faramir" faced no such hardships or difficultys in the losing of it.<P>Gollum seems somehow overly happy and before you all start pointing your barrow-blades at me because he does seem to cheer up slightly in the book and i agree that he is very (over) eager to please in both movie and book, he does not strike me as a happy and cheerful person, hobbit-thing, whatever-you-want-to-call-him. basically what I am trying to say is the elements of his personality(s) are seperated and some are enlarged while others are shrunk leaving us with a gollum *clone* NOT the real thing!<P>WOW, my longest post yet (to my memory, feel free to correct me if need be) free easter eggs for everyone!!! <p>[ April 26, 2003: Message edited by: Morgul Queen ]
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Old 04-25-2003, 07:38 AM   #31
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I am sort of with you Meela...cause I like Faramir in the book and visually as well - lol.<P>I have heard rumours that PJ will attempt to "redeem" Faramir's charachter in the extended version of TTT, like he did with the Galadriel gift giving scene in FOTR. I guess I holding out until November to make my final decision.<P>What concerns me is that in the ROTK, we are to feel sympathy for Faramir and his situation and to be happy that he finds happiness in the end. I worry that by painting him as such a bad guy, the mainstream audience will not feel that way, or even worse that PJ completely minimizes the Faramir character in the third movie in order to pump up Aragorn more and if that happens....<P>Nope not going there...not yet...
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Old 04-25-2003, 02:01 PM   #32
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I too was dissapointed with the Two Towers...at least at first. I did not like how the movie was so different from the book that I (who can practically receite the book from memory) become confused as to why Faramir was not helping the hobbits, and where they were going. Now, months later, I can appreciate both the books and the movie separately, each for their own ups and downs. It was somewhat interesting to see a different take on the story I know so well.
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Old 04-25-2003, 08:25 PM   #33
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Things that turned my stomach in TTT.<P>1. Gollum's line of "But master is my friend!" with that sympathetic innocent expression. Gollum is a well done character, BUT that part is just overdone. I mean come on! What is this? Disney? <P>2. Frodo. No offense to Elijah Wood, but a boy like him just can't pull it off. The Frodo he portrayed is unstable, fearful, miserable, and on the verge of going nuts. The characterization just doesn't fit. But sense Frodo is my least favourite character in the first place, it put me out of misery by seeing almost nothing of him.<P>Things that aren't quite right but I liked nontheless.<P>1. Gimli. Since when did the grumpy dwarf start cracking jokes? But it was funny. It made dwarves much more likable.<P>2. Eowyn. Since when did the ice queen turned to a sunshine girl? Not that the sunshine girl is not appealing or anything. She is so cute and innocent, yet very capable in the hour of need. Very steady and realistic.<P>3. Haldir's death. Understatement of the year: an elf's death is the hardest thing to witness. But I understand PJ's need for tragedy.<P>4. Faramir. Well, it's different from the book. But hey! We need melodrama and expense, and that did well enough.<P>5. Aragorn. Mortensen pulled off a wonderful performance. However, every proud and aragant fibre are pulled out of the character. Now our Aragorn is so human. I loved it anyway, but I still have to wonder: how are they going to establish him as a King? Guess I will wait and see.
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Old 04-27-2003, 04:57 AM   #34
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Doesn't anyone understand the Ring was taken to Osgiliath and shown to the Nazgul because the palantir-part of Aragorn is removed from the third movie?This is PJ's way of getting Saurons attention towards Minas Tirith were Faramir goes to.So instead of him seeing Isildurs heir going to MT,we have Faramir who,according to Sauron,takes the Ring with him.
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Old 04-27-2003, 11:41 AM   #35
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Interesting plot development, if that in fact is the case, but then it would bring up another problem to deal with in the story...why then does Gandalf take Pippen with him to Gondor and leave Merry behind.<P>I know for a fact that this is the case because when I had to pleasure of meeting Billy Boyd I told him that I couldn't wait to see him in his Gondorian uniform and he laughed saying that he and Dom, argued quite a bit about who had the better uniform, Gondor or Rohan...
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Old 04-27-2003, 07:07 PM   #36
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Doesn't anyone understand the Ring was taken to Osgiliath and shown to the Nazgul because the palantir-part of Aragorn is removed from the third movie? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Is it? I had heard that the Pippin-Palantir sequence would be in the film, in which case it would be strange not also to include Aragorn's moment with it. I would have thought that this would be something that Jackson would relish doing (like the Paths of the Dead) and it would hardly take a great chunk out of the overall running time.
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Old 04-27-2003, 08:55 PM   #37
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Where to begin.....<P> Hated the whole Warg-riders/Aragorn-over-the-cliff-Arwen-psychicly-motivates-horse-to-save-him thing.<P> Faramir's nobility was rather easily tossed aside.<P> Frodo/Sam at Osgiliath was beyond belief, all I could do was sit and stare in shock.<P> Kept muttering "Go for it!" every time Aragorn's eyes met Eowyn's.<P> And Haldir's death and the embarrassing nod to popularity that was the Dwarf-toss nearly caused me to suffer apoplexy.<P> *Takes a drink, takes a deep breath*
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Old 04-28-2003, 05:10 AM   #38
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I definately think this Aragorn/Arwen romance should have been completely left out of the movies. It slows the story down,it's boring,doesn't affect the story in the least,takes time that had better been put into Ents,Gandalf,Gollum or something and most of all it isn't in the books.<BR>A movie like this doesn't need a romantic story, the Ring should be destroyed and not Arwen letting a horse lick Aragorn who wasn't supposed to fall of that cliff at all! It made me very
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Old 04-28-2003, 04:57 PM   #39
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I thought the Wargs vs. Rohan fight was acceptable, but the cliff-falling incident wasn't. The day-dreaming incident lasted to long, and I didn't really appreciate it that much, they already showed the Aragorn-Arwen realationship enough in Fotr, I thought. Legolas isn't a super-hero, but he's an excellent shot with the bow & arrow, I don't find it to unrealistic that he could shoot and slide at the same time. Besides, Legolas is always doing cool ( or-out-of-place ) stuff with his weapons. I thought they did a great job on Gollum actually (most of the time)! Horse saving Aragorn was just to stinking lame. Farimir doesn't equel evil, he was just to loyal, or to greedy. Gimli was WAY to humuorous, a little humour is fine, but Gimli barely does a scene that isn't supposed to be funny (or at least it seems that way)! Frodo was well done in Fotr, but he's cracking to soon! HE shouldn't be in the state he's in until late in Rotk! The Ents should've decided to go to war on Isengard at the Entmoot, and altough hurling rocks at Isengard isn't booktual, I'll let that pass, it wasn't to lame (except a great majority of the ents, or maybe all of them, appear to be left-handed. Through some righties in there, PJ! )<BR>Someimes, early on in the movie, the changed Gollum sounds to much like Jar-Jar Binks to me! Well, I'm out of time, if I have anything more to say, believe me, my big mouth will disclose it soon! But I'll give PJ the shield-surfing, after all, it just seems to add to Legolas' agility and 'light-footedness' for me. Thanks for being patient with me while I give my LONG take on things. <p>[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]
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Old 05-01-2003, 02:25 AM   #40
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Here are the list of things that disappointed me in TTT:<BR>1. Faramir turned to evil; in fact, he was more resistant to the Ring than Boromir!<BR>2. Eowyn-Arwen-Aragorn love triangle. Some little remarks have been given in books also, but this wasn`t love between Eowyn and Aragorn!<BR>3. The whole film was ripped to pieces. Just when a battle begun at Helm`s Deep, the camera suddenly moved to Frodo and Sam captured by "evil" Faramir!
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