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Old 07-11-2000, 02:20 PM   #1
Oliphaunt
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I thought I understood the argument about Balrogs and wings. They had wings (at least I think so) , but could not fly. It talks about Balrogs having wings, but nowhere does it say they ever flew anywhere. &lt;p&gt;
But this is not about having wings or not, this is about flying. No where does it say that balrogs flew, but after Ungoliant ate the trees of light, the Valar decided to make some new light. Anar and Isil were made the sun and the moon. &lt;p&gt;
Tilion was the maia who steered the moon, all it says about him was that he had a silver bow, and he was in the company of Orome.&lt;p&gt;
Arien was a maiden of the Valar. Here's a quote: &quot;...being from the beginning a spirit of fire, whom Melkor had not deceived nor drawn in his service.&quot;&lt;p&gt;
The only other spirits of fire that were deceived and drawn into the service of Morgoth are balrogs. So, if balrogs can't fly, as many have concluded, how can Arien, the good counterpart of the balrogs cart the sun around everyday?
You might say that this can't be taken literally, but when you read how Morgoth tried to blacken the moon with smoke, and how Tilion got burned chasing Arien because she was so beautiful, it gets iffy...

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Old 07-11-2000, 04:53 PM   #2
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Re: Arien, Balrogs and wings.

Perhaps they could fly .... but they didn't fly, not even to save themselves from fatal falls. And even if they did fly, a Maiar certainly wouldn't need wings to do so.

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Old 07-11-2000, 06:34 PM   #3
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Re: Arien, Balrogs and wings.

If you read the first part of The Silmarillion, it says that Balrogs are Maiar who were enticed into the service of Morgoth.

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Old 07-11-2000, 07:13 PM   #4
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Re: Arien, Balrogs and wings.

This I would never deny.

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Old 07-12-2000, 07:00 AM   #5
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Arien, Balrogs and wings.

With Arien and Tilion, I think only the carts were able to fly, and Arien and Tilion only steered them. This gift of flight certainly was in the might of the Valar, especially Manwé.
Maybe Balrogs could not use their wings because the air, which mainly ins Manwé“s domain, which is pure does not carry their wings of darkness and evil?
Maybe they just did not dare to fly, fearing Manwé or his eagles, who are overmighty opponents in the air, but less dangerous to someone on the ground.
Maybe they did fly in Dor Daedaloth or elsewhere where Manwé“s breath did not reach...

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Old 07-12-2000, 12:39 PM   #6
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Arien, Balrogs and wings.

In LotR in Appendix A in III Durin's Folk is says:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrm, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.<hr></blockquote>I won't try to guess if that means they literally flew or if it means they ran quickly away.

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Old 07-12-2000, 12:51 PM   #7
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Arien, Balrogs and wings.

I've heard people use that very sentence to argue that Balrog's could fly and thus did have wings. But I've always countered that arguement with quote shouted by Gandalf (coincidentally(??) while he was battling a Balrog).
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Fly! You fools!!<hr></blockquote>
Does this mean that the remaining eight members of the Comapny of the Ring were expected to take flight? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">


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Old 07-12-2000, 01:10 PM   #8
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Arien, Balrogs and wings.

Yeah that's what I meant, I wouldn't use what I quoted to make a final decision. Someone had to say it, If I didn't someone else would.

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Old 07-20-2000, 08:40 AM   #9
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Balrogs and wings

I agree with everyone, but I re-read the portion of Fellowship about Moria in detail recently, especially the part about the balrog; and although it said that it's darkness about it literally filled the room, I don't think it actually said anything about wings. But, it didn't say that it didn't have wings, either.

Just to toss up another subject: also, when I re-read that portion, it said that the balrog looked like a huge cloud of darkness surrounding an almost man-like figure. But, then again, it said that, when it jumped over the fiery chasm and sped toward the bridge, it's mane kindled and blazed. I've seen pictures of balrogs, mainly looking like a cross between a vampire bat and a bull. But after reading that last night, I'm having second thoughts that it isn't so much a hairy monster, but a man-like figure.
And so, since I'm boring you all so much, I'll hurry and make this last comment: it says in the Sil. that the Valar usually appeared in man-like shapes to please the Children of Iluvatar, and since the Maiar are little Valar (please pardon the expression), and since balrogs are twisted Maiar, I dunno, maybe they are man-like in the middle.

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Old 07-25-2000, 09:35 AM   #10
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs and wings

When the balrogs choose to serve Morgoth and came into there form I always felt that they keep this form and could not leave it. (like Morgoth was stuck in his form during his last riegn)
Arien and Tilion were still maiar who could cast off there ramient and take any form. So they could probably fly where ever they want to as a spirit

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