The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-27-2006, 09:10 PM   #1
Gorhilion
Pile O'Bones
 
Gorhilion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 11
Gorhilion has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril Dragon-Fire

If it is true that dragon-fire can melt the One-Ring then why didn't one of the dragons try to? And if it isn't true than.....
__________________
Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
Gorhilion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 09:55 PM   #2
AragornII
Wight
 
AragornII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Concluding negotiations
Posts: 105
AragornII has just left Hobbiton.
White Tree

Welcome to the Downs, Gorhilion. Enjoy death!

To answer your question, if I remember correctly, the One Ring could not be destroyed by anything save the Fires of Orodruin. The other 19 Rings, 3 for elves, 7 for dwarves, and 9 for men, could be destroyed by dragonfire. I think only four of the dwarf Rings were, but none of the others. I also don't think there were many dragons around during the Third Age.
__________________
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken;
The crownless again shall be king.
AragornII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 10:48 PM   #3
Gorhilion
Pile O'Bones
 
Gorhilion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 11
Gorhilion has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Thanks.
__________________
Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
Gorhilion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 01:37 AM   #4
Farael
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Farael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,549
Farael has just left Hobbiton.
We had a discussion about The One Ring a while back and this topic came up... I think it was me who brought it up. If I'm not mistaken, someone brought up a quote from the books which said that PERHAPS it could have been destroyed by one of the greatest dragons, but they were no longer around.

Edit: I Think it was somewhere around here
http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12437
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

Last edited by Farael; 02-28-2006 at 01:52 AM.
Farael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 02:45 AM   #5
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Gandalf from the Shadow of the Past to Frodo.

Quote:
'Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.
As we can see, NO dragon could have harmed, let alone consumed, the One Ring.
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 06:52 AM   #6
JennyHallu
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
 
JennyHallu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit.
Posts: 1,686
JennyHallu has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to JennyHallu Send a message via AIM to JennyHallu Send a message via MSN to JennyHallu Send a message via Yahoo to JennyHallu
what I always wondered is, how did they KNOW dragon-fire could consume the lesser rings (but not the One), if all were accounted for, and none had ever been dragon-fired? It seems like Gandalf went in for idle speculation in the middle of a serious conversation.
__________________
<=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!
JennyHallu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 07:02 AM   #7
Earendilyon
Wight
 
Earendilyon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 166
Earendilyon has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

Quote:
Originally Posted by JennyHallu
what I always wondered is, how did they KNOW dragon-fire could consume the lesser rings (but not the One), if all were accounted for, and none had ever been dragon-fired?
A number of Dwarf-Rings were consumed by dragonfire. That's how they knew
__________________
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me."

Dominus Anulorum

TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.
Earendilyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 07:17 AM   #8
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JennyHallu
what I always wondered is, how did they KNOW dragon-fire could consume the lesser rings (but not the One), if all were accounted for, and none had ever been dragon-fired? It seems like Gandalf went in for idle speculation in the middle of a serious conversation.
he had been around in middle earth for good few thousand years before this, collecting information etc. So I'd give him the benefit of the doubt........
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 07:40 AM   #9
JennyHallu
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
 
JennyHallu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit.
Posts: 1,686
JennyHallu has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to JennyHallu Send a message via AIM to JennyHallu Send a message via MSN to JennyHallu Send a message via Yahoo to JennyHallu
Ring-lore was Saruman's cup of tea, though, wasn't it? And just because you've been around doesn't make it any less speculation.

But Earindilyon answered at least the first part of my question. Four of the seven dwarf rings were destroyed by dragons, and I forgot.
__________________
<=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!
JennyHallu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 07:48 AM   #10
Gurthang
Sword of Spirit
 
Gurthang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Oh, I'm around.
Posts: 1,507
Gurthang has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JennyHallu
Ring-lore was Saruman's cup of tea, though, wasn't it? And just because you've been around doesn't make it any less speculation.
Yes, you are correct, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Gandalf was not also well versed in Ring-lore. Saruman put much of his thought into Ringmaking history and the actual making (i.e. crafting, materials, or 'spells' used), likely because he wanted to make a ring of his own. On the other hand, Gandalf would have been more interested in just the broad history, and so than any record of their destruction or attempted destruction. I agree that he probably knew what he was talking about.
__________________
I'm on a Mission from God.
Gurthang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 07:55 AM   #11
JennyHallu
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
 
JennyHallu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit.
Posts: 1,686
JennyHallu has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to JennyHallu Send a message via AIM to JennyHallu Send a message via MSN to JennyHallu Send a message via Yahoo to JennyHallu
I tend to be pure scientist on things like this. Without experimentation, you have no truth. I agree that you are meant to accept Gandalf's word on the matter blindly, but my question is How did he know that Sauron's ring wouldn't melt in dragon fire? Obviously, since he didn't have it, he didn't set it in front of Ancalagon the Black and say "exhale, please" but he was still certain that it couldn't be destroyed that way. Why? Sauron's hand was on the dwarven rings too...
__________________
<=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!
JennyHallu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 08:40 AM   #12
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,206
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Pipe The Imperviousness of the One

In the absence of any precise data about the Rings of Power, and faced with the impossibility of conducting a physical experiment, I should rule out science on this question. Obviously Tolkien's concern was with the narrative situation created by the Rings of Power, and clearly his decision that the Ruling Ring could only be destroyed in Orodruin was made so that there would be no alternative for his characters but to take it there.

That being said, my guess would be that the One is harder to destroy than the Seven because more of Sauron's native power and will are embodied in it. The Seven and the Nine are merely trinkets to be used for the recruitment of new servants, but the Ruling Ring is for Sauron's hand alone, and its destruction, as we know, is a grave blow. Therefore, the dragons being loose cannon at the best of times, Sauron had a good reason to make his Ring impervious to their fire; and because he embodies more of his own spirit and will in it, the One is in any case likely to be harder to destroy. Far be it from me to speak for Tolkien, but that would seem to be the logical basis of Gandalf's speculation.
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 08:49 AM   #13
JennyHallu
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
 
JennyHallu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit.
Posts: 1,686
JennyHallu has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to JennyHallu Send a message via AIM to JennyHallu Send a message via MSN to JennyHallu Send a message via Yahoo to JennyHallu
Thank you, I'm satisfied now...

A further query however...Do you think that Dragon-fire could melt Narya?
__________________
<=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!
JennyHallu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 11:07 AM   #14
Naria
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Naria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 501
Naria has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Naria
Narya

Aaaagh

Melt me? NO not me anything but me!!

Sorry I couldn't help it....good question though
Naria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 11:27 AM   #15
Farael
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Farael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,549
Farael has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JennyHallu
I tend to be pure scientist on things like this. Without experimentation, you have no truth.
Well, that's not quite accurate... you can find the truth by merely observation, think about Biology. You can take a bunch of monkeys into a zoo and run experiments on them, but if you want to know how monkeys live in the wild you can only go out there and just watch.

It could be the same thing with Gandalf and the dwarven rings... not only he's been around for quite a bit, but we could asume his 'sight' (mind's eye) goes far beyond what humans or elves can see... maybe he 'saw' it happen and thus he 'knew'... or maybe, and even more simply, the story has been passed down the generations and so he did know. Archeology is a science too if I'm not mistaken and they work with part history part circumstantial evidence. Sort of like a Werewolf game, without people getting lynched =P

With the One Ring is a bit more tricky... as there is only one that has evidently not been destroyed. Even more so, as far as we know no-one has even tried. How does Gandalf know? well, the 'mind's eye' thing comes quite handly... he was a Maiar and so he knew. Other than that, maybe it was because of the forging of the ring... since it was forged in the hottest place on Middle Earth, anything short than that would just not be hot enough.

My personal thought is that last one... as the ring was forged in Mt. Doom it could only be destroyed there.
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.
Farael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 01:04 PM   #16
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Also, Gandalf was an emissary of the Valar.

Do you think they sent him off blind to defeat Sauron or do you reckon they gave him a bit of background information before?

you know, 'you have to destroy the Ring of Power - only way to do it is to unmake it in the fires of mount doom' etc.......

they did send him off after the Ring was made didn't they? I can't remember if gandalf arrived after Sauron's Ring was lost.......?
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2006, 02:23 PM   #17
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
Raynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
they did send him off after the Ring was made didn't they?
Sauron made the One Ring in the year 1600 of the Second Age, (which lasted for ~1841 years more); at about 1000 years into the Third Age, the Istari reach Middle-Earth (cf Tale of Years, ROtK).
Quote:
Do you think they sent him off blind to defeat Sauron or do you reckon they gave him a bit of background information before?
I don't think they had much detailed information. The istari were Sauron's peers (in nature and strength - or at least before they were embodied) so they knew each other anyway; moreover, their sending was "a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar" (only at about 2060 do the istari fear his return).
Raynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:10 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.