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Old 08-11-2022, 09:37 AM   #81
gondowe
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Okay. The only difference I was referring to about Thingol's death was that he should be forced or tricked out of the Girdle. Now we can "kill him" inside him, although also in the woods, despite the fact that "His halls were violated and he himself slain" is said.

Either way, I find it hard to handle the Girdle's loss of power explanation. But it is true that we can use to explain (sorry this is a copy/paste of yours old:

§311 (§37b) RD-EX-60 Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest, {but }{Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower {and}but foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}the Elfmaid said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’

In relation to what Arcuscalion says, therefore, my proposal was to combine the two concepts. The outlaws carrying the treasure, and Húrin carrying only the Nauglamír. Both throwing them at Thingol's feet and the Dwarves remaking the necklace.
This follows the TN line of time but differs in only one (but important thing, the remaking, not the making of the Nauglamír.

Sorry again, something like:

§279 (§8) RD-SL-05 {And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.}<TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin]
(From Sil77) entered in, and stayed a while in that dreadful place, where the treasures of Valinor lay strewn upon the floors in darkness and decay; but it is told that when Húrin
came forth from the wreck of Nargothrond and stood again beneath the sky he bore with him out of all that great hoard but one thing only. and that was no lesser treasure than the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, that was made for Finrod Felagund long years before by the craftsmen of Nogrod and Belegost, most famed of all their works in the Elder Days, and prized by Finrod while he lived above all the treasures of Nargothrond.

[And then ]caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and they murmured at that, but he said: ‘Are ye become as the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth], that would lie and wallow in gold and seek no other joy? A sweeter life shall ye have in the court of that king of greed, an ye bear such treasury to him, than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods.’

§284 (§12) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15 <TT uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-EX-16 <editorial addition many> were little pleased. RD-EX-17 <QS77
(From Sil77) And Húrin cast {it} the Nauglamír at the feet of Thingol with wild and bitter words.
'Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the Nauglamír, whose name is known to many among Elves and Men; and I bring it to thee out of the darkness of Nargothrond, where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him when he set forth with Beren son of Barahir to fulfil the errand of Thingol of Doriath!'
And Húrin
{and he} reproached the {Elfking}[Elvenking] with wild and bitter words. ‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír}[the hoard of Glaurung], whose {name}[fame] is known to many among Elves and Men,> bought by the death of {Nienóri}[Niënor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>

Could that be an "overstepping the bounds of the editorial function"?

By the way, I am also a very much combiner.

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Old 08-12-2022, 08:09 AM   #82
Findegil
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With Arvegil145 posting his find of Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ we have to rethink many of our decisions. The greatest im pact has JRR Tolkiens removel of the fight of the Dwarvish smiths after they finished their work in Menegroth. With that Tolkien opened for him self the way back to the fight of the Húrin’s Outlaws against the Thanes of Thingol in Menegroth. As the fate of the outlaws was one of our main issues, this new source gives us a kind of a perfect solution.
But there remain some issues, nonetheless. I will give out first some arguments sorted by our editing marks if a number is missing here it means the decision take of old can stay:
First a general change: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ specifies that the Nauglamír was made from silver not from gold. I caried that change throught any mention of material in direct connection to the necklace.
RD-SL-03.5: This is not new but an undecided issue: Was the Nauglamír made for Finrod Fealgund and brought to Menegroth by Húrin as a special item of the hoard and there the Dwarves ‘only’ put it together with the Silmaril or was it made by the Dwarves in Menegroth for Thingol specially as a framework for his Silamril? For me the text of Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does play down the significance of the Silmaril in favor of the dragon-sickness and / or the curse of Mîm. The making of the “Neckless of the Dwarves” is only mentioned in passing, it is neither the object for which Thingol call upon the Dwarves nor in anyway the reason for the strife between Thingol and Dwarves. As we do not know if Text X was earlier or later than Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ we might follow a kind of ‘line of development’:
- In Q30 the Nauglamír is Thingol’s special desire and reason to summon the Dwarves.
- In Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ the Nauglamír is a by product of Thingols disere to have the unwroght metal of the Hoard used for works of Art.
- In Text X the Nauglamír is pre-existing and the Dwarves only but together ‘greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves’.
That is why I have assume in my text the Nauglamír was pre-existing. But I am still hesitating about it and in the discussion in the books forum the majority seems to lean in the oposit direction or the Nauglamír made for Thingol.
RD-SL-05: Do we use the quarrels on the road at all? I am open both ways here and included it with the necessary changes as an explanation why some (small) part of the hoard was lost on the road. But I am open to skip it completely.
RD-SL-07: In generall there is no change necessary here, but the new source gives some details of the conversation that should be used. Most important may be the fact that Thingol does not send Húrin away.
RD-SL-08: The fight between the Outlaws and the Tahnes of Thingol is now back.
RD-SL-09 & RD-SL-10: The Outlaws are all killed, so there is no question of them taking any part of the Hoard from Menegroth. (I am sad for the Asgon part of the Outlaws – but well over all this is a tragedy, so some victims are to be expected.)
RD-SL-11: Ufedhin is out, that is clear, but Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ gives some new details: Thingol stores the treasure for some time in his deep chamber, but it gnawed his mind – a time that would farther estrange him from his wife after he rejected her counsel to throw it away in the first place.
RD-SL-12: Now we have the exact conditions of the angament: one tithe of the unwrought metals. This makes the statement about the Nauglamír a double edged sword: ‘Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax …’ At first sight it is ony a praise for the handiwork of the Dwarven smiths, but in view of the ‘contract’ and the strife that developed around it, the Dwarves could have overstated the amount and if not straightforward steeling the overstated gold they could at least countup the promissed tithe.
RD-SL-13: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ is very compressed, but it does not seem to be Thingol demanding the Nauglamír. I would rather have the Dwarves asking for the bone of working with these two most beautyfull artfacts and Thingol agree to it with some reluctance.
RD-SL-14 - RD-SL-16: In this part I think we should take Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ as our basic text and see what can be added from the other sources. (We might start with that process even earlier.)
RD-SL-17: Now there is not only no battel, but the Dwarves leave Menegroth without payment by their owne choice – some stubbornness is clearly involved here: If we do not get what is our due, we will rather take nothing and come back in force to take the full payment.
RD-SL-18: As the material in UT very late I think the exclusion of the Dwarves from Belegost is still valid.
RD-SL-19: Mîm’s death reappears as an argument in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, so it should be included.
RD-SL-20: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does assist the view that no treachers Elves from Doriath were involved in the planning or actual attack. (Phu, we are lucky not to re-open that discussion!)
RD-SL-21: Thingol is now neither ‘lured outside’ nor ‘induced to go to war beyond his borders’. Instead, the Girdle is simply ineffective due to the bead behavier of the Elves within or removed deliberately! by Melian. This leaves me with a lot of questions, but for our editing I would say we should take up that blank statement and leave it ambiguous which of the two things happen really (making both options opinions of the middle-earth reporters of this tale.) Anyhow we have to deal with Melian. She is not metioned again in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, so she does not bring the news to Ossiriand, since that done by fugitives. I would even re-establish her talk to Naugladur in Menegroth and the unablility of the Dwarves to molest her in any way.
RD-SL-22: The only detail given in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ about Thingols death is that it is mentioned last even after the violation of his halls. If we don’t want the Dwarves to execute him after they made him a prisoner, I think Thingol has to be outside Menegroth, when it is attacked. And the way to archive that in the narrative is the celebrational hunt. Thus the details of Thingols death can stay.
RD-SL-22.5: The discussion of the honesty of the Dwarves and going against that by taking the Nauglamír with the Silmaril has of course to be included.
RD-SL-27: The discussion about the ford of the battle and over which river it leads is now settled, but in contrary to our former decision: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does tell us that its one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”. And the Hoard is cast into that river and no other and that river is then re-named signifying “Golden-ded”. So the conclusion from that text is that the battle at the ford was at the Ascar not at the Duin Daer / Gelion. Which must mean we have Athrod Daer, the Great Ford, leading the Dwarve road over Duin Daer / Gelion into Talath Rhúnen above the confluence of Duin Daer and Ascar and a second ford nearer to the Erd Luin leading the road over Ascar into Ossiriand (probably it would only change the side of Ascar on which the road was build, since I beleife strongly that road followed that River into the mountains leading to the pass.) Farther question her: Do we name that second Ford Sarn Athrod, the Stony Ford? The name clearly fits the description of the place of that battle that we still use in our version and is free to be used since the ford over Duin Daer is now named differently. So I would use it.

Let’s try to get a text done. The best process would probably be to go back to my story-line draft, edit that to the actual state of the discussion, then replace part of it by Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, then insert all story related changes we might feel necessary and last expand that text with insertion from older versions. But the story-line draft is from 14 years ago and the process does even in theory look rather long, so I took our latest version, look which part is to be replaced by Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ and then expand that part. For the posting here I stripe the text as much as possible. The editing markers are the old once as far as possible, so that the reference to our old discussions is not lost. I will add some comments to specific changes at the end.
Quote:
§267 (§1a) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, … - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>
§268 (§1b) RD-SL-00.5 {Hurin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, … and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.
And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. … 'thy fee for thy fair keeping of my wife and kin.'
Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, … and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.
Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, … whereon to hang the Silmaril.
But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once … Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.
And Thingol, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, … But the remainder of the Dwarves were driven forth without reward or fee.
Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod and in Belegost they returned at length, … and their twilight was nigh at hand.
Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm, … the Land of the Dead that Live.
To the north of that region is a ford across the river Ascar, … or so filled with light.
Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse … yet the Silmaril they retained.
And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathlorion departed. … and none know where their meeting shall be again.}<Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ {He gathered a great company of violent outlaws, and they came to Nargothrond and slew Mim, and carried off a great part of the dragon-treasure.} RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under {Avranc}[Daruin] and made ready to depart, <WH Note 54 Isolated page end and others there were who {despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and {wish}wished to fly south> and they joined Húrin.> RD-EX-02.7b <WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).> RD-EX-03.1b <WH, Note 54, Text 2 A few men fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own {- are}were willing to go with Hurin.>
§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}was glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.>
§270 (§1e) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn}[Asgon] they {choose}chose for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed. /And he asked therefore Húrin:/ ‘Whither shall we go? {They}/We/ must {[? }know{]} a place of refuge.’ /And/ Húrin {elects}elected to go to Nargothrond.> RD-EX-02.5b <WH, Note 57
Húrin in Nargothrond
>§271 (§1f) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, RD-EX-05.3{and}<TT; Note 33 {Now therefore he gathered to him a band of wild men, and} they were waxen a fiercy and lawless folk that dwelt not with their kin, who thrust them into the hills to live or die as they might.> Thus Húrin came south with a following of a hundred or more. … More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.> RD-EX-05.5 <WH /And of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund.> RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>
§272 (§3a) RD-EX-07 <QS77 Here it must be told that <RD-EX-07.3 <WH {News}news of the fall of Nargothrond came to sons of Fëanor, … and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells. RD-EX-07.5 <TT But none had come nigh till then to despoil him, for the terror of the drake lived longer than he, and none had ventured thither again for dread of the very spirit of {Glorund}[Glaurung] the worm.>
§273 (§3b) RD-EX-08 <TT Now therefore when those {Elves}[Men] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Orodreth], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?’>
§3c (§274) RD-EX-09 <QS77 But Húrin said: 'Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'
§275 (§4a) QS77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkhizdīn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.'
RD-EX-08b<TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: 'We come to take what is not thine.' Then said {that dwarf, and his name was }Mîm: 'ORD-EX-09.1{ Úrin}, little did I think to see{ thee,} a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, … and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.'
§276 (§4d) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that RD-EX-09.2{he bid them seize it all, and }Mîm {stood by and watched, and he }broke forth into terrible and evil curses.>
RD-EX-11.5d <QS77 'Then you shall enjoy your inheritance no longer,' … the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'
§278 (§6) QS77 Then Mîm in great fear besought Húrin to take what he would, but to spare his life;> <TT {But Mîm dying} and he said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men {shall}would rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed.>
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life.’
><Lay of the Children of Húrin The dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}

by {an orc-}[a cruel ]arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
RD-EX-11.52<QS77 Then {he}Húrin entered in, and stayed a while in that dreadful place, … but one thing only.>
RD-EX-11.53 <TT Then {Úrin wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he}[Húrin] bid {them}his men seize {it }all the treasure of Nargothrond.>
RD-EX-11.54a<§279 TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and they murmured at that, … than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods.’> Dominated by his will and by fear of him they brought this treasure to Doriath.
RD-EX-11.54b<§280 (§9) TT Now his heart was bitter against {Tinwelint}[Thingol], … and evil has followed its finders for ever.> (§8) RD-SL-05d<Q30 And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. {Each one}Some of Húrin's company died or {was}were slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves}on.> RD-EX-11.5 <WH, Note 57
Húrin in Doriath
>§281 (§10a) RD-SL-06b <TT Yet in the end that laden host came to the {bridge before the doors}[border of Doriath], … bearing gifts{,’ and}.’ And when this was done{.}>, <Year 502 of The Grey Annals, WH Húrin {is}was admitted in pity.>
§282 (§10b) RD-EX-12 <TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] let bear all that magnificence before the king, … and knowest thou what death did {Nienóri}[Niënor] my daughter die?’>
§283 (§11) RD-EX-13 <QS77 Well{well} did {he}[Thingol] understand Húrin's intent; but being filled with pity he restrained his wrath, and endured Húrin's scorn,> RD-EX-13.5 <Q30 and long he bore with Húrin.> RD-EX-14b <TT Then did {Úrin}[Húrin] fiercely tell that tale, … for methinks the lustre of gold is all your heart contains.’>
§284 (§12) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15b <TT uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed{ – but Úrin's men understood now what was forward and were little pleased}. RD-EX-17b <QS77 {Húrin made no answer to the King, but}And he drew forth from beneath his cloak that one thing which he had taken with him out of Nargothrond; … And Húrin cast it {at the feet of Thingol with wild and bitter words.}>{, and there Húrin cast it }before the feet of King Thingol in a proud gesture of scorn, saying that as “the Lord of the House of Hador” (Húrin) vowed not be beholden to an elf-King for the fostering of his son, nor the harbouring of his wife and daughter. ‘Here is your fee! More than enough, maybe, for services so meanly performed; RD-EX-17d <QS77 {For}for this is the Nauglamír, whose name is known to many among Elves and Men, RD-EX-15d <TT bought by the death of {Nienóri}[Niënor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm.>{and} And I bring it to thee … to fulfil the errand of Thingol of Doriath! RD-EX-15e <TT Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.> {but}But hold me now out of your debt and friendship!’
§286 (§16) Thingol was amazed at the insult, but answered with patience and courtesy, saying he wished for no ending of friendship with Húrin, whose name was honoured among Elves and Men for his great valour in the last Great Battle, and near all Elves and Men had been rather in his debt ever since. But Húrin laughed in contempt and went out, unmolested, into the night{.} RD-SL-07b <QS77 {then he turned away, and passed out from the Thousand Caves}, and all that saw him fell back before his face; and none sought to withstand his going, nor did any know whither he went>RD-SL-07c <Q30; {and}but some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men. RD-EX-19 But<TT his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.> RD-EX-21b <WH
The Nauglamír
Necklace of the Dwarves
>{But even as he did so, Thingol looked at the hoard and the dragon-curse began to work upon him, and upon all there who gazed at the treasure.} §287 (§17a) RD-EX-20 <TN {'Behold then,' said Ailios, 'in}In great grief gazed the king upon {Úrin}[Húrin] as he left the hall, … already were all who looked upon it touched by its subtle evil.
§288 (§17b) RD-EX-20.1 <TN Now therefore did {those}[many] of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur,> {The}the outlaws, released from the presence of Húrin, claimed that it was theirs, won by their weapons and labour.{ Fighting broke out, even in the inviolable halls of Thingol.}RD-SL-08b <TN {and}And one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'
§289 (§18) TN Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol] for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: … and Túrin was my man.’
(§19) At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, … and then depart in peace.’
§290 (§20} Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, … so that soon there was a great fight even upon the steps of the high-seat of the king.
Doughty were those outlaws … summoned a host of his warriors, and those outlaws RD-EX-20.2{being wildered with the stronger magics of the king' and confused in the dark ways of the halls of Tinwelint }were all slain fighting bitterly; … Thus did the curse of Mîm the Dwarf RD-EX-20.25{begin}follow its course; and yet another sorrow sown by the {Noldoli}[Noldor] of old in Valinor was come to fruit.
Then were the bodies of the RD-EX-20.3{outlaws cast forth, but the woodland Elves that were }slain {Tinwelint let bury}buried nigh to the knoll of Tinuviel,> RD-EX-20.4<Q30 and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named Cum-nan-Arasaith, the Mound of Avarice.>
§291 (§22) RD-EX-22 <TN Now came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this gold, for my heart tells me it is trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath RD-EX-23b , and cursed by thy lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those they slew; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’
§292 (§23) RD-EX-24 TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, … Now such mighty heaps of gold RD-EX-26b <editorial addition based on Conncerning … ‘The Hoard’ and silver >have never since been gathered in one place; and some thereof was wrought to cups, to basons, and to dishes, and hilts there were for swords, and scabbards, and sheaths for daggers; but RD-EX-26c the most part was of red gold <editorial addition based on Conncerning … ‘The Hoard’ and pale silver >unwrought lying in masses and in bars. The value of that hoard no man could count, for amid the gold lay many gems, and these were very beautiful to look upon, for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}[the people of Finarfin] had brought with them out of Valinor a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>
§293 (§24a) RD-EX-28 <TN Now as he gazed {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘How glorious is this treasure! And{ I have not a tithe thereof, and} of the gems of Valinor I have none save that Silmaril that Beren won from {Angamandi}[Angband].’ But {Gwenniel}[Melian] who stood by said: ‘And that were worth all that here lies, were it thrice as great.’>
RD-EX-29.1<Q30 Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth.> {Blood was spilled on either side, but in the end all the outlaws were slain and }Thingol then had the treasure locked in a deep chamber. But it gnawed his mind, for the most of the treasure that had been brought from Nargothrond was in gold and silver yet unwrought, and he lusted specially for the silver, thinking what might be done with it. At last in an unhappy hour he {sent for the Dwarves of the Mountains to the east from Belegost and Nogrod.} RD-EX-29b <TN {Wherefore he }summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things{; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril}.> With them he had dealings and some friendship, and long ago they had helped in the building of his grand underground halls and palace.
§295 (§26) RD-EX-31 <QS77 In those days the Dwarves still came on their journeys into Beleriand … but in great companies well armed for their protection in the perilous lands between Aros and {Gelion}[Duin Daer] RD-EX-32b {; and they dwelt in Menegroth at such times in chambers and smithies set apart for them}. At that{ very} time> {The}the Dwarves sent emissaries, and they gazed on the treasure in amazement. After bargaining they agreed to send their best smiths to work at Thingol’s orders but at the price of one tithe of the unwrought metals. {The smiths came and laboured long, } RD-EX-32.1<Q30
§296 (§27) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure{,}. RD-EX-40.2b <QS77 Then the Dwarves looked upon the Nauglamír the work of their fathers, and they beheld with wonder the shining jewel of Fëanor; and they were filled with a great lust to possess them, and carry them off to their far homes in the mountains. But they dissembled their mind, and consented to the task> {and}but they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' RD-EX-34.5b Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.>RD-EX-35<TN But as yet {the}their <editorial bridge treacherous> designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] to depart to Nogrod with or without {that}[any] portion of the unwrought gold that yet remained, and he said: ‘How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither … and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’>
§297 (§28a) RD-EX-36b <TN But {they}[the Dwarves] knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying the exits privily found them strongly warded. Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest was that{ last} smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses{, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.>
§298 (§28c) RD-EX-37 <TN A golden crown {they}the Dwarves made for {Tinwelint}[Thingol], … wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of {Karkaras Knife-fang, father of}[Carcharoth, the Red Maw greatest of all] wolves. RD-EX-38 {That was a more wonderful sword than any Tinwelint had seen before, and outshone the sword in Ufedhin's belt the king had coveted. These things wereof Ufedhin's cunning, but}And the Dwarves made a coat of linked mail of steel and gold … and no tale tells a full count of them.>
§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39c <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], … In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; … for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were{ more} wondrous{ far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the Rodothlim wrought of old}. Cups and goblets did the king behold, … that {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was glad beyond the hope of {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves].
>{and among other marvellous works they made the renowned “Necklace of the Dwarves”, of silver, upon which was set in the middle the peerless Silmaril that Beren and Lúthien had won from the Iron Crown of the Dark Lord.} RD-EX-40b <TN Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but {Ufedhin}they said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest {gold}[silver] remaineth still, for we have husbanded it having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this: we would re-make thee {a}that carcanet thou holds and to its re-making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’
Then again did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose{,}. RD-EX-30c <QS77 But {when Húrin was gone from Menegroth, }Thingol sat long in silence, gazing upon the great treasure{ that lay upon his knees; and it came into his mind that it should be remade, and in it should be set the Silmaril}. For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.> RD-EX-29b <TN Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the {gold}[silver], and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant, and {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves] said again: "Or in what manner, O King, dost thou guard that Silmaril of which all the world hath heard?"
Now {Gwenniel}[Melian] warded it in a casket of wood bound with iron, and {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves] said it was shame so to set a jewel that should not touch aught less worthy than the purest {gold}[silver]. Then was {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abashed, and yielded> {yet did he yield} the boon, an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.> RD-EX-36.5b <QS77 Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked.>
§300 (§28f) RD-EX-42 <TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world … Albeit a weight beyond belief of {gold}[silver] was used in the making, … Gems uncounted were there in that carcanet of {gold}[silver], yet only as a setting that did prepare for … the Silmaril of Fëanor, jewel of the {Gods}[Valar]. Yet alas, even had that {gold}[hoard] of {the Rodothlim}[Nargothrond] held no evil spell still had that carcanet been a thing of little luck, for the Dwarves were full of bitterness, and all its links were twined RD-EX-42.5 anew with baleful thoughts.>
But as their work progressed Thingol began to regret the bargain, and in particular he saw that if the tithe was paid in full, not enough would remain for the making of a thing upon which he had now set his spell-distraught heart, and a double throne of silver and gems for himself and Melian the Queen.
§301 (§28g) RD-EX-43 <TN Now however did {they}the Dwarves bear {it}the Nauglamír before the king in its new-gleaming splendour; and then was the joy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] king of the woodland Elves come to its crowning, and he cast the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] about his throat, and straightway the curse of Mîm fell upon him. Then said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘Now, O Lord, that thou art pleased beyond thy hope, perchance thou wilt grant the craftsmen thy kingly reward, and suffer them to depart also in joy to their own lands.’>
§302 (§28h) RD-EX-44 <TN But {Tinwelint}[Thingol], bewildered by the golden spell and the curse of Mîm, liked not the memory of his tryst; yet dissembling he bid the craftsmen come before him, and he praised their handiwork with royal words.> RD-EX-44.1 <Q30 And Thingol, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, for his part scanted his promised reward for their labour{;}>{When the Dwarves had ended their work he [[† demurred?]]}, offering less than the tithe; or demanding at least that the throne should be made and other treasure given in stead of the silver required.
The Dwarves were angered, all the more because they had themselves come under the dragon-spell. They rejected Thingol’s terms, and refused anything less than the full tithe of treasure of Nargothrond{.}, RD-EX-46c<Q30 and bitter words grew between them[ and Thingol].<QS77 {;but}And the Dwarves in that moment {withheld it from him, and} demanded that he yield {it}[the treasure of Nargothrond and the Nauglamír] up to them, saying: ‘By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamír, that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagund who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Húrin the Man of Dor-lómin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.’ But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the [treasure and the] Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent; and in his wrath and pride he gave no heed to his peril, but spoke to them in scorn, saying: 'How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?' And standing tall and proud among them he bade them with shameful words be gone unrequited out of Doriath.> Unpaid they departed in wrath.
{Back in their mountains’ strongholds they plotted revenge, and not long after they came down with a great force and invaded Doriath.} §304 (§30} RD-EX-49 <TN Now tells the tale that the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] fared home again, and if their greed had been kindled when first RD-EX-50 <editorial addition they saw> the gold{ was brought to Nogrod} now was it a fierce flame of desire, and moreover they burnt under the insults of the king. Indeed all that folk love gold and silver more dearly than aught else on Earth, while that treasury was haunted by a spell and by no means were they armed against it. RD-EX-51b {Now one there had been, Fangluin the aged, who had Counselled them from the first never to return the king's loan, for said he: ‘Ufedhin we may later seek by guile to release, if it seem good,’ but}But at that time this seemed not policy to Naugladur their lord, who desired not warfare with the Elves. Yet now did Fangluin[Footnote to the text: Fangluin: Bluebeard.]<moved from above the aged> jeer at {them}the Smiths mightily{ on their return}, saying they had flung away their labour for {a botcher's wage and a draught of wine}[nothing] and gotten dishonour thereto, and he played upon their lust{, and Ufedhin joined his bitter words thereto}. Therefore did Naugladur hold a secret council of the Dwarves of Nogrod, and sought how he might both be avenged upon {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and sate his greed.>
§305 (§31) Yet after long pondering … nor indeed could any such come thither RD-SL-20 { unaided by treachery from within}.
§306 (§32) RD-SL-19 <TN Now even as those aged ones sat in their dark halls and gnawed their beards, behold a sound of horns, and messengers were come from {Bodruith of the Indrafangs, a kindred of the Dwarves that dwelt in other realms}[Belegost]. Now these brought tidings of the death of Mîm{ the fatherless} at the hand of {Úrin}[Húrin] and the rape of {Glorund}[Glaurung]’s gold, which tale had but new come to {Bodruith's}[their] ears. Now hitherto the Dwarves knew not the full tale concerning that hoard, nor more than RD-EX-53.2 {Ufedhin}[the Elves] might tell hearing the speech in {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls, and {Úrin}[Húrin] had not spoken the full count thereof ere he departed. Hearing therefore these tidings new wrath was added to their lust and a clamour arose among them, and RD-EX-53.5 <Q&E {Indeed}indeed it was one of their grievances <editorial addition of old> against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there.><editorial addition Therefore> Naugladur vowed to rest not ere Mîm was thrice avenged - ‘and, more,’ said he, ‘me seems the gold belongs of right to the people of the Dwarves.’>
§307 (§33) RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]. Secretly he let send {to the Indrafangs}[the messengers back] RD-SL-18 asking <QS77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied {them}him, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade {them}him from {their}his purpose>, because they <Unfinished Tales; Galadriel and Celeborn were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome>{ that they}RD-EX-55 . <editorial addition But the Dwarves of Nogrod>{ prepare}prepared their host against a day that {he}[Naugladur] would name, whenso the time should be ripe; and a hidden forging of bitter steel then was in [Nogrod.]{Belegost the dwelling of the Indrafangs.}>
§308 (§34) RD-EX-56 <TN Now each year about the time of the great wolf-hunt of Beren {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was wont to keep the memory of that day by a hunt in the woods, and it was a very mighty chase and thronged with very many folk, and nights of merriment and feasting were there in the forest. Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet}[knew], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one RD-EX-57 {, and straightway he sent the trysted sign, a bloodstained knife, to Bodruith at Belegost}. Now all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.>RD-SL-21 <moved from below The dwarf-host entered Doriath.> This had before been impossible, because of the Girdle of Melian, an invisible fence maintained by the power and will through which no one with evil intent could pass. But either this fence had been robbed of its power by the evil within, or Melian had removed it in grief and horror at the deed that had been done. {The dwarf-host entered Doriath and most of Thingol’s warriors perished. His halls were violated and he himself slain.} RD-EX-62b <QS77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way. RD-EX-59 <TN
§309 (§36) Behold now {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king rode forth a-hunting, … the Necklace of the Dwarves.>
§311 (§37b) RD-EX-60b Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest, {but }{Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower {and}but foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}the Elfmaid said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great {magic}[enchantment] all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word there was a cry about the doors, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...}, strengthened by the clash of steel. RD-EX-63.5b Then went {Gwendelin}[Melian] unafraid forth from her bower, and behold, a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.
§313 (§39) RD-EX-64c Then did {Gwendelin}[Melian] know well that her foreboding was true, and that {treachery}[doom] had found her realm at last, yet did she hearten those few guards that remained to her and had fared not to the hunt, and valiantly they warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back {[}and{]} fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.
§314 (§40a) RD-EX-65c Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure, and lo! one came and sate him in the high seat of the king laughing loud, and {Gwendelin}when he saw {that it was Ufedhin, and}[Melian] mocking he bid her be seated in her ancient seat beside the king's. Then {Gwendelin}[Melian] gazed upon him so that his glance fell, and she said: "Wherefore{, O renegade,} dost thou defile my lord's seat? Little had I thought to see {any of the Elves}anyone sit there, a robber, stained with murder, a league-fellow of the truceless enemies of his kin. Or thinkest thou it is a glorious deed to assail an ill-armed house what time its lord is far away?" But {Ufedhin}[the Dwarf] said nought, shunning the bright eyes of {Gwendelin}[Melian], wherefore said she anew: "Get thee now gone with thy foul {Orcs}[comrades], lest {Tinwelint}[Thingol] coming repay thee bitterly."
Then at last did {Ufedhin}[the dwarf] answer, … but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur.
Then did {Gwendelin}[Melian] see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of {Artanor}[Doriath], and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and{ whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs keep, or slay, as they desire. Yet} the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’
Then said {Gwendelin}[Melian]: ‘Thief and murderer{, child of Melko}, yet art thou a fool, … and she read by her {fay}[devine]-wisdon the curse of Mîm and much of what would yet betide.
Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh … and now did there seem to her neither beauty nor joy be it in Valinor or in the Lands Without. RD-SL-22b Many of the scattered Elves in her wayward journeyings she met, … nonetheless must ye know how even in the hour that {Ufedhin's}[the dwarfish] host brake the palace and despoiled it, and other companies as great and as terrible of the {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] fell with death and fire upon all the realm of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], behold the brave hunt of the king were resting amid mirth and laughter{, but Huan stalked apart}. Then suddenly were the woods filled with noise{ and Huan bayed aloud}; but the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. … and {Mablung and} the king[‘s thanes] fell{ side} by[ his] side - but RD-SL-23 <TN, Note 12 {Against this sentence my father wrote a direction that the story was to be that} the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] caught in the bushes and held the king>, and Naugladur it was who swept off the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] {after he was dead}, for {living}[so long as Thingol could fight] he dared not so near to his bright sword{ or the axe of Mablung}.> RD-EX-59.5 <QS77 So died{ in the deep places of Menegroth} Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, … with his last sight gazed upon the Silmaril.>
RD-EX-59.55 <Q30 Thus was the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered.> According to dwarf-honesty, however, nothing was taken of all his treasures, save the hoard of Nargothrond. This the Dwarves had claimed: part as bargained pay, part as recompense for broken troth, and the need to make a great expedition to obtain their rights. Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mîm was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains).
RD-EX-59.56 {The great necklace was taken from Thingol as he lay dead. Then}But the Dwarves departed from their “honesty” in spite of the warning of the wisest among them.<moved from above The great necklace was taken from Thingol as he lay dead.> They lusted for the peerless and supremely powerful gem, and under the plea that it would ruin their handiwork to remove it from the Necklace they carried it off.{ Then the Dwarves were routed. The gold and silver was cast into the river, which hereafter bore a new name, signifying “Golden-bed”.}RD-EX-59.57 <Q30 So{so} was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.
§316 (§43a) Now the Dwarf-road to Nogrod and Belegost … Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live RD-EX-66 <QS77 ; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel;><Shibboloth and beside one great waterfall, called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house.><Ros Dior{ their son}, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's <editorial addition , the Bëorian of Dorthonion>, and his mother's, … the name Elwë (Sindarin Elu) was believed to be and probably was drived from el 'star'.> RD-EX-67 <TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, … seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>
§317 (§43b) To the north of that region {is}was a ford across the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer], near to its joining with Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Athrad Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes{ and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian}.>
Fugitives from Doriath brought news to Beren in Ossiriand, especially of the rape of the Silmaril. {He gathered a force and waylaid the Dwarves on their return march, at a ford across one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”.} RD-EX-70b <TN Indeed the tale tells that even as that host of {the Orcs}[dwarves] were burning all the land of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and{ the Nauglath and the Indrafangin} were wending homeward burdened utterly with spoils of gold and precious things, came {Huan}[these fugutives] to Beren's lodge, and it was dusk. Lo, Beren sat upon a tree root and Tinúviel danced on a green sward in the gloaming as he gazed upon her, when suddenly stood {Huan}[the fugitives] before them, and Beren gave a cry of {joy and wonder, for it was long since he and Huan had hunted together}[surprice] {But}but Tinúviel looking upon {Huan}[them] saw that {he}they bled, and there was a tale to read in {his great}their eyes. And {she}Lúthien said suddenly: ‘What evil then has fallen upon {Artanor}[Doriath]?’ and {Huan}they said: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but Thingol is slain.’>
§319 (§45 & §46a) <TN Then did both Beren and Tinúviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale of {Huan}[the fugitives] dry their eyes. … sprang as it were by {magic}[a spell] towards him from{ every} glade and coppice, stream and fell.>
§320 (§46b) <TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk … the {host}[small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed] great [enough to him], … but at dawn he followed at the head of the green Elves, RD-EX-71 <QS77 and summoning to him Dior his son he left Tol Galen and they went north to the River Ascar.> {and}But Tinúviel abode in the glade and wept unto herself for the death of {Tinwelint} [Thingol], and {Gwendelin}[Melian] also she mourned as dead.>
§321 (§46c) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host … and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that he fell in with}And the rangers of Beren's folk{, and these gaining from him}gained sure knowledge of all the host … he purposed to follow, and they sped back … unto their lord;{ but Ufedhin revealed not to them who he was, … he brought safe word,} and he set a trap for Naugladur. RD-EX-73 { No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing} Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Ascar] at a certain time he turned aside, faring swiftly with his light-footed Elves by straighter paths that he might reach {Sarnathrod}[Sanr Athrod] the Stony Ford before them. Now the {Aros}[Ascar] is a fierce stream RD-EX-74 { - and is it not that very water that more near its spring runs swiftly past the aged doors of the Rodothlim's caves and the dark lairs of Glorund' -} and in those lower regions by no means {can}could be crossed by a great host of laden men save at this ford, nor {is}was it overeasy here. … he was in haste to reach Nogrod and its dark caverns{, for the Dwarves list not long to abide in the bright light of day}.>
§322 (§46d) <TN Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Ascar], … amidmost the great company of those that bore the treasury of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and many a fair thing beside that they had haled from Tinwelint's halls}; and behind these was Naugladur{, and he bestrode Tinwelint's horse, and a strange figure did he seem, for the legs of the Dwarves are short and crooked, but two Dwarves led that horse for it went not willingly and it was laden with spoil}. But behind {these}him came … they sought to cross {Sarnathrod}[Sarn Athrod] on their day of doom.>
§323 (§46e) <TN Morn was it … Now did Naugladur{ slip from his burdened horse and} prepare to get him over, … but the armed men of the rear were resting awhile.>
§324 (§46f) <TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of {elfin}[elvish] horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and it {is}was the horn of Beren, the huntsman of the woods. Then {is}was the air thick with the slender arrows of the Eldar … but many were stricken with those pitiless darts and fell with their gold into the currents of the {Aros}[Ascar], staining its clear waters with their dark blood.>
§325 (§47) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <QS77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as they {climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed}<editorial change entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the Stony Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares … and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host{.}, RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks RD-EX-77.5 <TN , for {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly> until the most part broke and fled, … filled them with mirth.>
§326 (§48) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and he remembered the words of {Gwendelin}[Melian], for behold, Beren came towards him and he cast aside his bow, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>
§327 (§49) <TN Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an thou canst, … but Beren called even as he fought that all should stay their hands.>
§328 (§50} <TN Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, … by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his {dwarfen}[dwarven] mail; … and he thought: ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Man], and his folk will flee in fear before me,’ … But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Ascar].>
§329 (§51a) <TN Then did he unloose the necklace, … but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand].> RD-SL-27 <QS77 And when all was finished the treasure of {Doriath}[Nargothrond] was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, {Rathlóriel}[Rathmallen], the Goldenbed.>
§330 (§51b) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now {is}was the gloom and dread of that Stony Ford that none {seek}sought the treasure that it {guards}guarded nor {dare}dared ever to cross the{ magic} stream at that enchanted place.>
§331 (§51c) {But Beren rescued the Necklace and the Silmaril. Lúthien wore it, until ere long she and Beren passed away and were heard of no more in Middle Earth.}> RD-EX-79b <TN But Beren took the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril{;}. RD-EX-80 <TN {But}And in the vales of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] was there gladness at the homecoming of the Elves, and great was the joy of Tinuviel to see her lord once more returning amidst his {companies}[company], but little did it ease her grief … remembering the first days of their love and those days of travail in the wild{.}, RD-EX-80.1 <Q30 and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor{, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light}.>
RD-EX-81b <TN {Now is it to be said that Beren sent for Ufedhin and well rewarded him for his words of true guidance whereof the Dwarves had been overcome, and he bid him dwell in.... among his folk, and Ufedhin was little loth; yet on a time, no}No great space thereafter{, did that thing betide which he least desired. For} came there a sound of very sorrowful singing in the woods, and behold, it was {Gwendelin}[Melian] wandering distraught, and her feet bore her to the midmost of a glade where sat Beren and Tinuviel; and at that hour it was new morning, but at the sound all nigh ceased their speaking and were very still. Then did Beren gaze in awe upon {Gwendelin}[Melian], but Tinuviel cried suddenly in sorrow mixed with joy: "O mother {Gwendelin}[Melian], whither do thy feet bear thee, for methought thee dead"; but the greeting of those twain upon the greensward was very sweet.{ And Ufedhin fled from among the Elves, for he could not endure to look upon the eyes of Gwendelin, and madness took him, and none may say what was his unhappy weird thereafter; and little but a tortured heart got he from the Gold of Glorund.}
§332 (§51d) Now {hearing the cries of Ufedhin Gwendelin}[Melian] looked in wonder{ after him, and stayed her tender words; and memory came back into her eyes so that}, and she cried as in amaze beholding the Necklace of the Dwarves that hung about the white throat of Tinúviel. Then wrathfully she asked of Beren what it might portend, and wherefore he suffered the accursed thing to touch Tinúviel; {and}then told Beren all that tale {such as Huan had told him, in deed or guess, and }of the pursuit and fighting at the ford{ he told also}, saying at the end: ‘Nor indeed do I see who, now that Lord {Tinwelint}[Thingol] is fared to Valinor, should so fittingly wear that jewel of the {Gods}[Valar] as Tinúviel.’ But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's halls, ‘and yet another and more potent curse, whose arising I know not, is woven therewith,’ said she, ‘nor methinks was the labour of the Dwarves free from spells of the most enduring malice.’ But Beren laughed, saying that the glory of the Silmaril and its holiness might overcome all such evils, even as it burnt the {[? }foul{]} flesh of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth]. ‘Nor,’ said he, ‘have I seen ever my Tinúviel so fair as now she is, clasped in the loveliness of this thing of {gold}[silver]’; but {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Yet the Silmaril abode in the Crown of {Melko}[Morgoth], and that is the work of baleful smiths indeed.’>
§333 (§51e) <TN Then said Tinúviel that she desired not things of worth or precious stones but the {elfin}[elven] gladness of the forest, and to pleasure {Gwendelin}[Melian] she cast it from her neck; but Beren was little pleased and he would not suffer it to be flung away, but warded it in his [treasury].>
§334 (§51f) RD-SL-28.5<Q30 Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river {Ascar, and named it anew} {Rathlóriel}[Rathmallen], Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.} <moved from above, and{ that} for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the {Gods}[Valar], and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.>
Some comments:
RD-SL-00.5: This the place were I changed the basic text from Q30 to Concerning … ‘The Hoard’. I markd the full text replaced of Q30by Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ as taken out. It runs trough several paragraphs and ends at ‘and none know where their meeting shall be again.’
RD-SL-01RD-EX-11.5: Of course we expand the gathering of Húrins band, their dealing with Mîm and the transport to Doriath as we have done before.
RD-EX-08: I am not sure if we discussed this before: In our old discussion I was in error to name Galweg the father of Flinding, but in TN he is the father of Failivrin. So we have to change {Galweg}[Orodreth].
RD-EX-11.5d: I rearanged the sequence of speaking, to let Húrin have the last word. As we have abopted that Mîm was killed by an arrow put trough his throat he can not speak the curse dyding. In my arrangement he utters it as a last try to desuade Húrin from killing him – and fails since Húrin would not take the hoard from himself and the curse will rather enhance his vengeance on Thingol.
RD-EX-11.52 & RD-EX-11.53: If Húrin is to take the Nauglamír from the Hoard he must have a chance to inspect it by himself, but as we reinstalled the Outlaws in carrying the Hoard, he has to order them take it afterwards.
RD-EX-11.54a & RD-EX-11.54b: Here I used for the first time a snippet from Concerning … ‘The Hoard’. That Húrin set the course of action was clear in all versions but is here made nicely explicit.
RD-SL-05d: As said above, I am undecided about this. We could use it or we could skip.
RD-EX-15b, RD-EX-17b, RD-EX-17d, RD-EX-15d & RD-EX-15e: I changed the sequence here to get some flow with the speech from Concerning … ‘The Hoard’. And since here Thingol does not lose his contenace the passage from TN where he sends Húrin away can not be taken.
RD-EX-20.1: This is modivied to allow part of Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ to stand. (See my P.S. for a fan-ficional idea I had while working out this passage.)
RD-SL-08b: From her I took a long passage from TN, as that is the best description of the strife between Thingol and the Outlaws.
RD-EX-20.2: I think the bewilderment by Melians magic and the dark ways are no longer valid seeing how Menegroth was later described.
RD-EX-20.25: If we take up the Outlaws kill on the road then the Outlaws killed in Menegroth are no longer the first victiems of Mîm’s curse.
RD-EX-20.3: To cast the bodies of the killed Outlaws forth, is even in TN problematic: To where did they cast them? Out of Doriath – to long a way; just out of Menegroth – to have the stench of the routing bodies all over the place?
RD-EX-20.4: This is taken vom Q30 because it is the last mentioning of the name. I have no idea if that name is still useable in later Sindarin.
RD-EX-23b: Since we reinstalled the fight with the Outlaws we have as well to reinstall trebly curse and Melians warning about it.
RD-EX-26b: I adde the ‘pale silver’ since sliver plays a crucial part in the story as told in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ and is never mentiond in TN or TT. If some one has a beter idea then ‘pale’ for the description of the colour of silver to go with the ‘red’ of gold, I am open. But keep in mind that we speak about ‘masses and bars’ and not polished coins or precious.
RD-EX-29.1 & RD-EX-32.1: The resulting test is unchanged, but we need a marker since Q30 is no longer the basic text.
RD-EX-29b &RD-EX-32b: This is slightly changed for the integration with the new basic text.
RD-EX-40b: Changed to the effect of the dwarves asking to put the Nauglír together with the Silmaril.
RD-EX-30c & RD-EX-29b: I used this passages to explain why Thingol considers ‘the boon’, at all even so he has already some doubts about the dwarfish motives.
RD-EX-36.5b: This nicely prepairs the passage from Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, were Thingol rethings the bargain.
RD-EX-44.1: I hope this editing works to get a flowing text combined with the offering of less than the tithe.
RD-EX-46c: ‘departed in wrath’ is a bit short and this is my try to elaborate on it.
RD-EX-51b: I took Fangluin back in to gage Naugladur to an at first sight hopeless action.
RD-SL-21: I had to re-arange these sentences to get a readable text.
RD-EX-60b, RD-EX-63,5b, RD-EX-64c, RD-EX-65c & RD-SL-22b: As Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does agree in sequence of events with TN I used that text here and edited as necessary.
RD-EX-59.55: I needed a bridge her for the return to the basis text.
RD-EX-59.56: Again reaganged to get some better flow.
RD-EX-59.57: Marker needed because Q30 is no longer the basic text.
RD-EX-70b: Change to accord with the Fugitivs as messenger for Beren and Lúthien.
RD-EX-73: In all the following passages concerning the battle I changed the reference the river to Ascar and took up the name ‘Sarn Athrod’ for the Ford over Ascar. Other wise there is not much changed.
RD-EX-81b: Q30 has still the warning about the curse by Melian, therefore I took up the description of her coming from TN.
RD-SL-28.5: Here at the long last we change back our basic text to Q30.
As always please feel free to disagree with me!
Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I said before, that I find it sad that with the story as told now we lose Asgon as possible story teller. And while working on the text a purely fan-fictional solution for that issue poped up in my mind, that I would like to share here. BUT please mark: I am in strong opostion to take this up into our text! If some one thingks about agruing about it, he needs to present support from some original Tolkien source. I formatted the sinpet as we would edtit it the the -FF- in the marker signifiying fan-fiction. We jump into the story in the moment when Hurin leaves Menegroth:
Quote:
§288 (§17b) RD-EX-20.1 <TN Now therefore did {those}[many] of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur,> RD-FF-01 <editorial addition but Asgon, how had in all that time not touch any part of that hoard,> RD-FF-02 <QS77 stooping lifted up the Nauglamír from where it lay before Thingol's chair, and he gave it to him, saying: 'Receive now, lord, the Necklace of the Dwarves, as a gift from one who has nothing, and as a memorial of Húrin of Dor-lómin. For now {my}, me seems, his fate is fulfilled, and the purpose of Morgoth achieved{; but I am his thrall no longer}.'
Then he turned away, and passed out from the Thousand Caves.> {The}But the outlaws, released from the presence of Húrin, claimed that {it}[u]the hoard[/b] was theirs, won by their weapons and labour.{ Fighting broke out, even in the inviolable halls of Thingol.}RD-SL-08b <TN {and}And one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'
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Old 08-16-2022, 01:25 PM   #83
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Hello. Some commentaries and proposals.

In my opinion, Asgon's Noble Retreat could be included without lacking in inventing anything. Let the reader get a good idea of him, who was not included in Morgoth's curse and was nobler than the rest of the outlaws.

As for Cum-na-Arasaith, Could it not become Haudh-en-Arasaith?

From RD-EX-35 and the whole story of the Dwarves' stay in Menegroth, I think I would be against C..TH's scheme. The Dwarfs should leave and when they start manufacturing again according to RD-EX-37

And it is understood that the evil implications of the Dwarfs as in RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth], must be erases due to the better conception of them in later writings.

My combination proposal from here would be (sorry for the presentation):
Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet}[knew], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one RD-EX-57 {, and straightway he sent the trysted sign, a bloodstained knife, to Bodruith at Belegost}. Now all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.
RD-EX-56 <TN Now each year about the time of the great wolf-hunt of Beren {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was wont to keep the memory of that day by a hunt in the woods, and it was a very mighty chase and thronged with very many folk, and nights of merriment and feasting were there in the forest.
RD-EX-59 <TN §309 (§36) Behold now {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king rode forth a-hunting, … the Necklace of the Dwarves.>
RD-EX-60b Now {is}when the king was {far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest} [gone], {but }{Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower {and}but foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}the Elfmaid said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great {magic}[enchantment] all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’

This could "pre-explain" some better the failure of the Girdle.

RD-EX-62b <QS77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; {But either this fence} [the Girdle of Melian] had been robbed of its power by the evil within, or Melian had removed it in grief and horror at the deed that had been done> .and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way.


In other way, Sarn Athrod is valid as a ford for Ascar?
And I know that in C...TH Tolkien says that the battle occurred at the ford of one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir, but without name... Must we assume that they crossed first the Athrad Daer and then crossed the other ford over the Ascar?
Or maybe they went along the north path (their existence to the south is not clear) and arrived at Ascar?

What do you think?

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Old 08-17-2022, 05:14 AM   #84
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Asgon: In my opinion we do not have enough evidence for such a story. Even so we think that he might have been the story teller of part of the Narn and The Wanderings of Húrin, we do not even have a hart evidence for that.

{Cum-na-Arasaith}[Haudh-en-Arasaith]: I can see the logic behind this change. Bt we I don't think we a change attested from {Cum-...}[Haudh-...], or have I missed it? The change from {...-na-...}[...-en-...] is attested, so I would agree to that at least.

Quote:
From RD-EX-35 and the whole story of the Dwarves' stay in Menegroth, I think I would be against C..TH's scheme. The Dwarfs should leave and when they start manufacturing again according to RD-EX-37
I do not fully understand what you mean here. I used parts of TN to form the text, and thus added the treacherous designs and Thingol forcing the Dwraves to stay, which are neither mentioned nor explicitly denied in Concerning ... 'The Horad'. If you think these elements are to be left out, I can agree to that. But the Dwarven Smiths never left Menegroth before their work was finished.

RD-EX-54: I don't agree to this statement. A pre-mediated war upon Doriath for not more than a thithe of the Hoards unwrought gold and silver must be considered an over reaction (spezially in an elf-centrict story as the Silmarillion is). And that JRR Tolkien was of that opinion as well, is seen in the very late Galadriel and Celeborn text which we used to skip the Dwarves from Belegost. Anyhow even if the rason for the war would have been just, the war would have tainted the friendship between Elves and Dwarves, which is all that is said here in more drastical words.

RD-SL-21: I like your idea to place the actual passing of the Dwarves trough the Girdle after that dialog between Melian and the Eflmaid. But I see an issue how to switch back to Menegroth and Melian afterwards. But That should be a solveable editorial issue.

RD-EX-62b: You skipt the passage from Concerning ... 'The Horad' about the former impossibility of passing the Girdle. Even so I can see the beter flwo that you created, I Think the explicit contarst shown in Concerning ... 'The Horad' shouldn't be lost.

Sarn Athrod as ford over Ascar: Yes that was my argument. And Concerning ... 'The Horad' does specifiy that the battle side is at Ascar even so in an indirect way:
- Beren 'waylaid the Dwarves on their return march, at a ford across one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”'
- 'The gold and silver was cast into the river' (emphasis added) - which clearly means the same river that the ford crossed.
- that river 'hereafter bore a new name, signifying “Golden-bed”' - as soon as the battle was moved from the border of Doriath (Ford over Aros) to Ossiriand the re-named river has ever been Ascar, even when the Battle was at a ford over Duin Daer (Gelion).
Yes, for me it is clear that the Dwarf-road crossed 'Duin Daer' at 'Athrad Daer', the 'Great Ford', run for considerable way along the north of Ascar and then crossed Ascar at 'Sarn Athrad', the 'Stony Ford'.
Just arriving at Ascar is not enough. Concerning ... 'The Hoard' tells us that the battle was at a ford - at least that is made very explicit, and as argued above for me that ford is over Ascar.

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Findegil
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Old 08-17-2022, 10:36 AM   #85
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Asgon must have a rethinking, Asgon was nobler than the outlaws (and the Hoard could have less influence in him), and not touched by the Curse of Morgoth only could be for example, (sorry, this is a retranslation of my spanish):
"Therefore many of Húrin's companions began to murmur, and the outlaws, freed from Húrin's presence, claimed that he was theirs, earned by their weapons and toil. But Asgon rebuked his men, and bowing to the king he left Doriath with his worshipers, in search of Húrin; and no story speaks of his fate."
Thingol and the Dwarves are predisposed to the curse of the treasure, the only thing, the rest of the Elves of Doriath..., I don't know.

Haudh. I think it would be a plausible way of change. I can't say if in any time you/we consider that change. Some of the "lambergolmor" of the Spanish Tolkien Society told me that is plausible, and they are word not in Neo-Sindarin, that I didn't want. But we need more opinions.

Quote: I do not fully understand what you mean here. I used parts of TN to form the text, and thus added the treacherous designs and Thingol forcing the Dwraves to stay, which are neither mentioned nor explicitly denied in Concerning ... 'The Horad'. If you think these elements are to be left out, I can agree to that. But the Dwarven Smiths never left Menegroth before their work was finished.

Ok. In C.. TH is said "After bargaining they agreed to send their best smiths to work at Thingol’s orders but at the price of one tithe of the unwrought metals. The smiths came and laboured long".
And now I can see that the Dwarves emissaries could not leave Menegroth and send to look for the Smiths.

They could be retained and could not. I meant to remove them, but could agree retainig them.

RD-EX-54 I meant with the statement "more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]", it sound to me an old conception.


My quote, my fault: And I know that in C...TH Tolkien says that the battle occurred at the ford of one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir, but without name...

I meant without a ford over Ascar name. Could it be Sarn Athroth as the name of the ford over Ascar, too much naming?

I strongly think that the story must be East Road-->Athrd Daer--> Ford over Ascar.. but without naming it, or naming simply "a Stony Ford".
Don't know, what do you think.

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Old 08-18-2022, 04:53 AM   #86
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Asgon: No doubt, in my personal 'Silmarillion' Asgon does surfive. But I don't see that we have enough evidence to introduce anythink in our text in this project. Which means that if we really want an introduction of what ever kind, we would have to find arguments out of original Tolkien sources for his surfival.
But just to mention it: For me there no chance for a following of Asgon that would surfive with him. I can imaging Asgon staying away from the Hoard, but the rest of Húrins following is needed to transport the Hoard, that means they are under the curse of Mîm and that has to kill them in one way or another.

Haudh: More oppinions would be good, other wise it needs toilsome investigation.

RD-EX-35: Why do you think the emessaries could not leave Menegroth after they had negothiated with Thingol? And whom could thy send back to fetch the smiths? I think that 'send' in Concerning ... 'The Hoard' does explicitly mean that the emessaries themself walked back to Nogord and initiated the smiths to go to Menegroth.
As a matter of fact, I think here the structure of TN shows trough, but with Ufedhin and his dwarfish friends and the transport of half of the Hoard to Nogord taken out.

RD-EX-54: Clearly the statment is routed in the old conception of the Dwarves. But there are some arguments why it could still be useable:
- we see even in later sources some Dwarves reported to be 'under the Shadow' when they first meet with the Fathers of Men
- later some Dwarves fight for Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance
- The story is alway told out of the perpective of the ELves or their friends. And it is a classical point of view in a polarised situation such as war, that foe of my foe is my friend and vise versa.

Sarn Athrad: Reading my own text know I can see your problem with the naming: It is to seperated and with that confusing (especailly since many readers would be familar with the old concept of Sarn Athrad being the Ford over Gelion). We have to find a n other way to make the geography of the road more clear. I will search for that and come back with a better presentation of what we consider as fact.

Respectfuly
Findegil

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Old 08-18-2022, 06:35 AM   #87
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As promissed I have worked a bit farther on the textual issues:
First RD-SL-21 and gondowe's idea to introduce the failing of the Girdle by the speak of Melian with the Maid in Menegroth. What about this eiditing:
Quote:
§308 (§34) RD-EX-56 <TN Now each year about the time of the great wolf-hunt of Beren {Tinwelint}[Thingol] was wont to keep the memory of that day by a hunt in the woods, and it was a very mighty chase and thronged with very many folk, and nights of merriment and feasting were there in the forest. Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet}[knew], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one RD-EX-57 {, and straightway he sent the trysted sign, a bloodstained knife, to Bodruith at Belegost}. Now all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.> RD-EX-59 <TN
§309 (§36) Behold now {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king rode forth a-hunting, and more glorious was his array than ever aforetime, and the helm of gold was above his flowing locks, and with gold were the trappings of his steed adorned; and the sunlight amid the trees fell upon his face, and it seemed to those that beheld it like to the glorious face of the sun at morning; for about his throat was clasped the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.>
§311 (§37b) RD-EX-60b <TN Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest, {but }{Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower {and}but foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}the Elfmaid said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great {magic}[enchantment] all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’>
RD-EX-62b <QS77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath.> RD-SL-21b This had before been impossible, because of the Girdle of Melian, an invisible fence maintained by the power and will through which no one with evil intent could pass. But either this fence had been robbed of its power by the evil within, or Melian had removed it in grief and horror at the deed that had been done. The dwarf-host entered Doriath and {most of Thingol’s warriors perished. His halls were violated and he himself slain.} RD-EX-62b <QS77 {Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and} none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way.
>RD-EX-60c <TN Even {at that word}when Melain had spoken there was a cry about the doors, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...}, strengthened by the clash of steel. RD-EX-63.5b Then went {Gwendelin}[Melian] unafraid forth from her bower, and behold, a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.
And than the geography of the Dwarf-Road and the fords:
Quote:
... yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>
§317 (§43b) RD-EX-67.1 <Q30 To the north of that region {is}was a ford across the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer], {near to its joining with}RD-EX-67.2 <Maeglin just above the inflow of the River >Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountainsRD-EX-67.3 <Maeglin (the last point where the {River Gelion}[Duin Daer] could be crossed)>; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Athrad Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}.> RD-EX-67.4 <Annals of Beleriand 103 [153] {and the Dwarves trafficked into Beleriand; and they made a}The great Dwarf-road{, which came north, east of the mountains, and thence it passed under the shoulders of Mount Dolm,(17) and} followed thence the course of Ascar, {and crossed Gelion at the ford Sarn-Athrad, and so came unto Aros.}> RD-EX-67.5 <Later Silmarillion; Of the coming of Men … {and taking the Dwarf-road he crossed Gelion at the ford of Sarn-athrad,} and turning south over the upper streams of AscarRD-EX-67.6<moved from above at the ford {Sarn-Athrad}[Sarn Athrod]>, {he}it came into the north of Ossiriand.> RD-EX-67.7<Q30 This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes RD-EX-67.8<moved from above {passed}passing under the shoulders of Mount {Dolm}[Dolmed]>{and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian}.>
Fugitives from Doriath brought news to Beren in Ossiriand, ...
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Old 08-18-2022, 07:06 AM   #88
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I am just dropping in to weigh in on the Haudh question. The last word, Arasaith, is not likely to be proper Sindarin. I will try to lay it out here:

Arasaith was Tolkien's Noldorin update of Idrisaith in Gnomish. He does not break it down, but it seems to be made from:

G. saith - hunger
G. avos - wealth, prosperity, fortune, luck

With regards to saith there has been a proposed updated version to follow Sindarin development becoming saeg but this is Neo-Sindarin, and requires the switching of the original Gnomish root ᴱ√SAẎA to ᴺ√SAYAK, due to Tolkien's use of a -kǝ suffix to form all the derivative words (eQ: saike, saiqa, G> saig, saith). Because saig exists also as a G. derivative of the root, given as meaning "hungry," I think this neo-Sindarin saeg is very soundly reasoned and argued, and I think it is fine to use.

With regards to avos The situation is less cut and dry. The word is originally said to be derived from ᴱ√AW̯A, which has derivatives having to do with wealth. However, much later, in 1969 linguistic notes, Tolkien references a root √AW, meaning 'have in hand, possess, own.' This he gives the Quenya derivative aura - possession, thing owned. I think for our purposes we can use the Ara- element of Arasaith as a derivative of √AW, perhaps as a cognate of Q. aura: possession. Since Arasaith essentially meant "wealth-hunger" our new word might mean "possession-hunger" but I think the sense is still essentially the same.

Putting this elements together with the correctly updated initial part of the word gives us Haudh-en-Arasaeg for which Mound of Avarice is still a good translation.

I personally would be fine using this updated name, but I leave that up to you.
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Old 08-18-2022, 11:31 AM   #89
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Quote: Asgon: No doubt, in my personal 'Silmarillion' Asgon does surfive. But I don't see that we have enough evidence to introduce anythink in our text in this project. Which means that if we really want an introduction of what ever kind, we would have to find arguments out of original Tolkien sources for his surfival.
But just to mention it: For me there no chance for a following of Asgon that would surfive with him. I can imaging Asgon staying away from the Hoard, but the rest of Húrins following is needed to transport the Hoard, that means they are under the curse of Mîm and that has to kill them in one way or another.

Agreed. But let only Asgon to leave Doriath. Or even, let Asgon to leave Nargothrond before the carring of the Hoard. Could be?

RD-EX-35: Ok. I think it could be. Agreed.
RD-EX-54: The same, the Dwarves with Sauron convinced me.

Agreed with the new texts but in: Quote:This had before been impossible, because of the Girdle of Melian, an invisible fence maintained by the power and will through which no one with evil intent could pass.

I think the Girdle of Melian was well described in the corpus of the Mithology earlier. The Reader know what is the Girldle of Melian. For that reason I say to erase from the text. Tolkien in the manuscript is describing to a reader that didn't know what was it.

And the geography is well for me, only if we are all agreed to call the ford Sarn Athrod or simply "a stony ford"

About Asasaeg, in my project only try to use words from Tolkien, I don't mind if they are Noldorin, (I manage it as the diferent traditions of the sources), but try to modernised with "modern" words used by him. as Haudh. I don't know if is enough correct but for me Arasaith is valid. So you must decide if is valid for this project.

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Old 08-24-2022, 02:32 AM   #90
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Asgon:
Quote:
But let only Asgon to leave Doriath. Or even, let Asgon to leave Nargothrond before the carring of the Hoard. Could be?
Yes, both could be, so I would not believe in Asgon leaving in or even before Nargothrond was reached. But could be is not enough.
What do we know?
Well, near to nothing. We have a very indirect evidence that one of Húrins Band survified at least long enough to tell the story how they essambeld around Húrin and picked up the Hoard. And even that is not sure, since the essambling could simply be deduced from evidence by the author of the Narn (people that left Brethil 'with' Húrin, report about the dead men in Menegroth) and for the death of Mîm there seemed to be other witness, since we hear that this news was brought to Belegost (supposedly by Ibun, Mîm's younger son).
So even if I would ignore the fact that the story could be written without one of the Band survifing, we have no idea who was the survifer nor how he escaped the curse of Mîm and when he left the band and or Húrin.
This means everythink we would put into our text would be invented facts in Middleearth. And that is a thing we shy back from for sure!

About the Girdle: I agree that in this place it is a repeatition for sure, but of how fare back in our text? Anyhow I don't see that as an issue - repeatition are not that uncommon in Tolkiens texts.

Sarn Athrod: Yes, that is exactly teh question we have to answer: Do we use the name or not? My oppinion is yes, but I could go with both answers.

Asasaeg: Neo-Sindarin is a kind of no go for me. I think it is safest to leave the sindarin name out.

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Old 08-25-2022, 05:10 AM   #91
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Ok. We must remove Asgon. I, for sure too, don't want to invent anything not based in Tolkien's words.
I only wanted to ask for something that I might have missed.

Sarn Athrod. I'll give my thougts.
Athrod I suppose is old Gnomish or Noldorin. The Sarn Athrad has a general meaning of Stony Ford, but we have here a, say, "new" ford over Ascar that we have to manage. I'm inclined to use it as it was the old Aros ford, mostly having the Gelion Ford's name now as Athrad Daer. But I always wonder if the suggested change of the last one was due to not repeat the Sarn Athrad of the Baranduin.

Asasaeg. As I said, I agree with the rejection of Neo-Elvish, I prefer to use Noldorin or leave it only in English/Spanish (another option to de Sarn Athrod/Stony ford).

Greetings

Edit: One proposal.

RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]. <From C..TH {Evidently not a lover of Dwarves, but one who looked only on their bad side (or knew no other side). He} [This] had some justification, for though no servants of the Evil Vala, the Dwarves were by nature and origin specially open to the degeneration of their love and admiration {[[the word “for” is corrected to “of”, written above the original word]]} of works of “craft” into a fierce possessiveness.

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Old 08-26-2022, 02:21 AM   #92
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Asgon: Agreed.

Athrad: I have to appologise for some confusion: 'Athrod' is clearly the old version and has to be replaced by the newer 'Athrad'. I was inconsitent in my use, but have corrected that now.
Beside that I agree that it is possible that JRR Tolkiens change Sarn Athrad => Athrad Daer could have been motivated by the fact that Sarn Ford was fixed by publication as a name for a ford in Eriador. But (and that is a big but) it is speculation on the motive of the change and we have lots of geographical features on the LotR-map that have similar of identical names to such features on the 'Silmarillion'-map.
Other than that I did not fully get your meaning. Do you agree to use Sarn Athrad for the ford over Ascar were the battle was fought? If not I agree that we simply remove the elvish name and stay with Stony Ford.

Asasaeg: Okay if nobody else speaks up, we skip the elvish name.

Your proposal, that I will name RD-EX-54.5: Good find! I agree to the inclusion.

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Old 08-26-2022, 03:17 PM   #93
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I'm inclined to use Sarn Athrad. Because is a name with very much history and is the everlasting ford of the battle from the begining. I only have doubts of its use and if is too much surpase the limits of edition. So yes, I WANT to use it. But with that doubt. But if you are convinced that this not too much editing I will fall into the abyss😉

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Old 08-11-2023, 09:05 PM   #94
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My goodness, I disappear for a bit, and a late Tolkien text with major implications appears. I’m sorry I wasn’t around last August when these discussions of “Concerning The Hoard” were initially happening.

Some general remarks first about my impression of the text. First of all, I would rest easier if we had firmer evidence for the date. It’s said to be from “circa 1964”, and I accept that this is the case, but since that makes it probably the latest text concerning the Ruin of Doriath, it would be better if we could be sure about it.

It’s clearly intended as a quick and ready guide to the events for the recipient of the letter, and taking this together with Tolkien’s tendency for “slips of the pen” in later years, I think we should not be overly eager to take every word here as gospel, particularly on subjects not immediately connected with the letter’s main topic, i.e., Glaurung’s hoard and the Ruin of Doriath. On the other hand, this is also not just a quick note that he sent off; concerning its central subject, it’s pretty clear that it really does express his intentions for the story at the time.

As I see it, the most important deviation of “Concerning ‘The Hoard’” from the story as we previously projected it is the explanation for how the Dwarves went to war with Thingol despite the protection of the Girdle of Melian. Here, two alternatives are offered: either the Girdle had already been robbed of its power by the evil deeds within, or else Melian, out of grief and horror at those deeds, removed the Girdle herself. This is in contrast to a note given in HoMe XI, found among notes on the Narn i Chin Hurin and apparently dating from about the same time as them, proposing that Thingol must be “lured outside or induced to go to war” beyond the Girdle’s border and killed; then Melian departs and the Girdle is removed with her departure.

Now, we don’t know the date of that latter note. It would seem most likely, based on what CT tells us in HoMe XI, that it dates from a time during which Tolkien was working on Turin’s story, which would put it somewhere in the ’50s. Given the lack of a date for that note, and the lack of a precise date for “Concerning ‘The Hoard’”, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that the note in XI is actually the latter of the two. But certainly the evidence favors the opposite conclusion, that “Concerning ‘The Hoard’” postdates the “lured or induced to go to war” note.

I must say that, personally, I find the “Concerning ‘The Hoard’” version weaker. It’s unclear why evil deeds done within Doriath would weaken Melian’s magic, and even less clear why Melian would forsake Thingol and leave him to his death rather than doing her best to counsel wisdom, as she typically does. Whereas it’s easy for me to imagine an overly confident Thingol leaving the protection of his realm. But that’s just my personal feeling, which can play no role in our decisions. Since the version where Melian intentionally removes the Girdle is difficult to fathom, though, I think we are left with the idea that the Girdle was robbed of its power by the evil deeds within Doriath as the best, latest version of this part of the story.

I see there’s also been more discussion concerning the note in the Beren & Luthien volume referring to a text in which the Nauglamir was made for Finrod (“Text X” as Findegil calls it). My feeling about this previously was that we cannot take this version of the story into our text, and “Concerning ‘The Hoard’” only strengthens that opinion. To be perfectly honest, and to put it bluntly, I’m not completely convinced that “Text X” exists. If it does, it is remarkable that there is no mention of it in HoMe XI, where CT offers a kind of apologia for his version of The Ruin of Doriath. It seems just possible that in preparing Of Beren and Luthien, the 92 year-old Christopher Tolkien misremembered the idea of an earlier provenance for the Nauglamir as one that derived from his father’s notes. I’m not saying this is the case; I’m saying it’s possible.

But let’s assume Text X exists. Apparently, it was not one that CT deemed significant enough to include or even to mention in HoMe. Nor do we have any inkling of a date for it. What we do have now, sitting before us with a date less than ten years before Tolkien’s death, is a text that says:

Quote:
The smiths came and laboured long, and among other marvellous works they made the renowned “Necklace of the Dwarves”, of silver, upon which was set in the middle the peerless Silmaril that Beren and Lúthien had won from the Iron Crown of the Dark Lord.
As far as I’m concerned, a text that we possess and know to date from a late period trumps a text of which all that we possess is a vague allusion and no date.

With these things in mind, let me give my thoughts on Findegil’s post from nearly a year ago now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ”Findegil”
RD-SL-03.5: This is not new but an undecided issue: Was the Nauglamír made for Finrod Fealgund and brought to Menegroth by Húrin as a special item of the hoard and there the Dwarves ‘only’ put it together with the Silmaril or was it made by the Dwarves in Menegroth for Thingol specially as a framework for his Silamril? For me the text of Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does play down the significance of the Silmaril in favor of the dragon-sickness and / or the curse of Mîm. The making of the “Neckless of the Dwarves” is only mentioned in passing, it is neither the object for which Thingol call upon the Dwarves nor in anyway the reason for the strife between Thingol and Dwarves. As we do not know if Text X was earlier or later than Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ we might follow a kind of ‘line of development’:
- In Q30 the Nauglamír is Thingol’s special desire and reason to summon the Dwarves.
- In Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ the Nauglamír is a by product of Thingols disere to have the unwroght metal of the Hoard used for works of Art.
- In Text X the Nauglamír is pre-existing and the Dwarves only but together ‘greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves’.
That is why I have assume in my text the Nauglamír was pre-existing. But I am still hesitating about it and in the discussion in the books forum the majority seems to lean in the oposit direction or the Nauglamír made for Thingol.
I’m already a little bit lost here, for I cannot find RD-SL-03.5 in the list the RD-SL-## storyline items.

In any case, I have already given my opinion on this. I do not think we can elevate our hypothetical Text X to the status of the latest and most authoritative statement on the matter, for a host of reasons. We must go with the Nauglamir being made for Thingol.

Quote:
RD-SL-05: Do we use the quarrels on the road at all? I am open both ways here and included it with the necessary changes as an explanation why some (small) part of the hoard was lost on the road. But I am open to skip it completely.
It seems to me that the quarrels on the road were invented solely to get rid of Turin’s band of followers in Q30. Since the outlaws are no longer meant to die in this way, I don’t see any reason for the half measure of still including the cause of their death. I think the quarrels on the road must go.

Quote:
RD-SL-07: In generall there is no change necessary here, but the new source gives some details of the conversation that should be used. Most important may be the fact that Thingol does not send Húrin away.
RD-SL-08: The fight between the Outlaws and the Tahnes of Thingol is now back.
Agreed on both of these.

Quote:
RD-SL-09 & RD-SL-10: The Outlaws are all killed, so there is no question of them taking any part of the Hoard from Menegroth. (I am sad for the Asgon part of the Outlaws – but well over all this is a tragedy, so some victims are to be expected.)
I agree that it’s a shame that Asgon dies here, but so it goes. At least in our text there is no explicit mention of Asgon after they leave Brethil; if the reader prefers to imagine that Asgon left the band before they took the treasure, he or she is free to do so.

Quote:
RD-SL-12: Now we have the exact conditions of the angament: one tithe of the unwrought metals. This makes the statement about the Nauglamír a double edged sword: ‘Albeit a weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making, lightly it hung upon its wearer as a strand of flax …’ At first sight it is ony a praise for the handiwork of the Dwarven smiths, but in view of the ‘contract’ and the strife that developed around it, the Dwarves could have overstated the amount and if not straightforward steeling the overstated gold they could at least countup the promissed tithe.
But this must now be changed, surely - for “Concerning ‘The Hoard’” says that the Nauglamir was made of silver. I think we can simply change it to ‘Albeit a weight beyond belief of silver was used in the making’.

Quote:
RD-SL-13: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ is very compressed, but it does not seem to be Thingol demanding the Nauglamír. I would rather have the Dwarves asking for the bone of working with these two most beautyfull artfacts and Thingol agree to it with some reluctance.
It does seem that CTH is completely neutral on the question of whose idea it was to make the Nauglamir, though it does say that the Dwarves sent their best smiths “to work at Thingol’s orders”. In any case, I don’t see any reason that this text would make us reconsider the choice we made before, of removing the element of the Dwarves waiting until they had shown Thingol there other works and then specifically asking to make a necklace for the Silmaril.

Quote:
RD-SL-14 - RD-SL-16: In this part I think we should take Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ as our basic text and see what can be added from the other sources. (We might start with that process even earlier.)
Agreed.

Quote:
RD-SL-17: Now there is not only no battel, but the Dwarves leave Menegroth without payment by their owne choice – some stubbornness is clearly involved here: If we do not get what is our due, we will rather take nothing and come back in force to take the full payment.
RD-SL-18: As the material in UT very late I think the exclusion of the Dwarves from Belegost is still valid.
RD-SL-19: Mîm’s death reappears as an argument in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, so it should be included.
RD-SL-20: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does assist the view that no treachers Elves from Doriath were involved in the planning or actual attack. (Phu, we are lucky not to re-open that discussion!)
Agreed on all of these points.

Quote:
RD-SL-21: Thingol is now neither ‘lured outside’ nor ‘induced to go to war beyond his borders’. Instead, the Girdle is simply ineffective due to the bead behavier of the Elves within or removed deliberately! by Melian. This leaves me with a lot of questions, but for our editing I would say we should take up that blank statement and leave it ambiguous which of the two things happen really (making both options opinions of the middle-earth reporters of this tale.) Anyhow we have to deal with Melian. She is not metioned again in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’, so she does not bring the news to Ossiriand, since that done by fugitives. I would even re-establish her talk to Naugladur in Menegroth and the unablility of the Dwarves to molest her in any way.
I suppose we really have no justification to decide one way or the other - the Girdle being robbed of its power due to the evil deeds within or Melian deliberately removing it. As I’ve said, I find the latter possibility faintly ridiculous. But that’s as may be. However, I’m not sure why anything in CTH would urge the reinstatement of Melian’s talk with Naugladur and the inability of the Dwarves to carry her off.

Quote:
RD-SL-22: The only detail given in Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ about Thingols death is that it is mentioned last even after the violation of his halls. If we don’t want the Dwarves to execute him after they made him a prisoner, I think Thingol has to be outside Menegroth, when it is attacked. And the way to archive that in the narrative is the celebrational hunt. Thus the details of Thingols death can stay.
I very much disagree with this. The fact that Thingol’s death is mentioned after the sack of Menegroth does not imply that one happened after the other, and certainly not that they were separated by a significant interval of time. Indeed, the way it is phrased suggests to me that the violation of his halls and the killing of Thingol occurred together. And something as major as Thingol being away on a hunt at the time of the sack, and being killed later in a separate battle, is not something that seems likely to be left out of this account, compressed though it is. Note also that if we assume the king was killed later, outside Menegroth, then we must interpret CTH as jumping backward in time in the following paragraph to talk about the plundering of the hoard from Menegroth.

So, I’m afraid I’m firmly of the opinion that the hunt must go, and that Thingol was killed at Menegroth.

Quote:
RD-SL-22.5: The discussion of the honesty of the Dwarves and going against that by taking the Nauglamír with the Silmaril has of course to be included.
Agreed.

Quote:
RD-SL-27: The discussion about the ford of the battle and over which river it leads is now settled, but in contrary to our former decision: Concerning … ‘The Hoard’ does tell us that its one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”. And the Hoard is cast into that river and no other and that river is then re-named signifying “Golden-ded”. So the conclusion from that text is that the battle at the ford was at the Ascar not at the Duin Daer / Gelion. Which must mean we have Athrod Daer, the Great Ford, leading the Dwarve road over Duin Daer / Gelion into Talath Rhúnen above the confluence of Duin Daer and Ascar and a second ford nearer to the Erd Luin leading the road over Ascar into Ossiriand (probably it would only change the side of Ascar on which the road was build, since I beleife strongly that road followed that River into the mountains leading to the pass.) Farther question her: Do we name that second Ford Sarn Athrod, the Stony Ford? The name clearly fits the description of the place of that battle that we still use in our version and is free to be used since the ford over Duin Daer is now named differently. So I would use it.
I think I agree with this line of thinking, and I am fine with using “Sarn Athrad” for the ford over the Ascar.

On the point that Gondowe brought up regarding RD-EX-54, I do think, looking at it now, that we cannot make the bald statement that the Dwarves drew more nigh in friendship to the followers of Morgoth. This isn’t related to CTH, but it’s something that should’ve been caught before. It’s a very pre-The Hobbit conception of Dwarves. I think we need to delete this statement.

Well, those are my thoughts. Hopefully Findegil, Gondowe, and others still check in here from time to time and I’m not talking to a void.
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Old 08-13-2023, 06:20 AM   #95
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In all my time reading about the numerous arguments over the CtH, I've yet to see this one (which to me, at least, seems obvious as day):

Could the evil within mentioned as a possible cause for the downfall of the Girdle of Melian in Concerning... 'The Hoard' be as simple as Hurin's sheer admittance to Doriath?

That man, after he was released from Angband, has been a walking, talking doomsday device for anyone and anything close to him.


While I originally despised Turgon for not admitting Hurin into Gondolin immediately - given all the things he has done to save Gondolin's hide - I now honestly think that it might have been for the best.

Hurin, just by his sheer presence in the vicinity of Gondolin managed to tip off Morgoth to Gondolin's general location - after which, it was only a matter of time until Gondolin itself was found.

But given the fact that every realm (and people!) who had given him any acceptance after his release ended up absolutely demolished, it makes me think that Gondolin would've somehow manage to fall to ruin even earlier than had Turgon not hesitated about letting him in: which would've essentially killed all hope (i.e. Earendil) that the people of Beleriand had.

After all, Hurin's epithet Thalion ("Steadfast") goes both ways - steadfast in friendship and loyalty (almost to an insane point), and steadfast in utter hatred and destruction of all that he deems responsible for his family's demise (real or imagined).


One other thing - the dragon-spell(s) is very much a real thing in Tolkien's universe (evidenced by this text and The Hobbit, as well The Children of Hurin): which makes Hurin even scarier and his raw hatred for everything and everyone even more formidable, given the fact that he single-handedly managed to control this group of hardened warriors/outlaws possessed by the dragon-spell with his sheer presence, with the outlaws only giving in to temptation (and the resultant battle with Thingol's guards) after Hurin leaves.

Anyway - just a cool little detail.




Another point - I find the Dwarves in CtH faaar more reasonable and behaved than in the previous versions (especially The Nauglafring): in my opinion, having the Dwarves still intent on abducting Melian is just utterly at odds with everything that's been said of them in the new text.

Also, in The Silmarillion, I was always under the impression that the Dwarves just ransacked all of Doriath willy nilly, with no regards to the civilians or their agreement with Thingol - this is simply not the case here; the Dwarves are only intent on:

1) killing Thingol in retribution, and (regrettably) any of his soldiers that get in the way

2) taking their agreed upon payment (with some interest)


The Dwarves only get screwed after they take more than is their due (i.e. Nauglamir with the Silmaril in it).



P.S. The dragon-spell is a hell of a drug!

Also, Asgon most certainly dies (unless he saw the error of his ways and abandoned Hurin before his arrival to Doriath).
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Old 08-13-2023, 07:49 AM   #96
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For those curious about what Aiwendil and Arvegil145 are discussing, "Concerning the Hoard" is linked and extensively discussed here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19607
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Old 08-13-2023, 03:09 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Arvegil145
Could the evil within mentioned as a possible cause for the downfall of the Girdle of Melian in Concerning... 'The Hoard' be as simple as Hurin's sheer admittance to Doriath?
An interesting argument, though I don't think I really buy that the entrance of Hurin into Doriath in itself was "an evil deed", nor the evil deed that robbed the Girdle of its power.

However, your point at the end has gotten me thinking that perhaps it was really the power of the doubly cursed treasure (cursed by Glaurung and by Mim) that sapped the magic of the Girdle from within. The idea that mere "evil deeds" could defeat the girdle strikes me as rather ad hoc and unsatisfying both from a narrative and a world-building standpoint. But the curse upon the treasure is a real, almost tangible force that Thingol has foolishly allowed to enter into Doriath. And I think that this idea is harmonious with what is said in CTH about the "evil deeds" robbing the Girdle of its power, because those evil deeds are themselves an effect of the curse. Why do these evil deeds weaken the magic of the Girdle? Because they were brought about by the power of the dragon's curse.

Of course, I'm not suggesting we make any statement to this effect in the text. I think I'm for taking the "evil deeds" explanation straight out of CTH and omitting the alternative that Melian removed the Girdle herself. The passage reads like Tolkien still being unsure of what mechanism to use to bypass the Girdle, and so offering two very tentative alternatives. I don't think the intention was that the text of a full telling of the Ruin of Doriath would dither about the reason.

Quote:
Another point - I find the Dwarves in CtH faaar more reasonable and behaved than in the previous versions (especially The Nauglafring): in my opinion, having the Dwarves still intent on abducting Melian is just utterly at odds with everything that's been said of them in the new text.
Agreed. In fact, the idea of them trying to abduct Melian is directly at odds with the text of CTH, since it states that in their "honesty" they only took that which was owed them, and that the only point in which they wavered from this honesty was the taking of the Nauglamir.
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Old 08-13-2023, 07:28 PM   #98
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An interesting argument, though I don't think I really buy that the entrance of Hurin into Doriath in itself was "an evil deed", nor the evil deed that robbed the Girdle of its power.
I'm not as convinced - just look at all the realms, as well as the individual people that Hurin's presence alone condemned to.

You could argue that it was just a case of a self-fulfiling prophecy (i.e. Hardang refusing to allow Hurin entry into Brethil, and the subsequent indignities that Hurin suffered, which didn't sit very well with the populace), a staple of tragedies in general...

...but, something here just doesn't feel right - something that Lorgan, the lord of the Easterlings in Hithlum, himself felt IMO when he met Hurin:

...Then hearing that Húrin had not after all the favour of Morgoth, or forswore it, many of Lorgan's men drew their swords to put an end to him. But Lorgan restrained them; for he was wary, and more cunning and wicked than the others, and quicker therefore to guess at the purposes of the Master. - The War of the Jewels, 'The Wanderings of Húrin', p. 253

The Master here, of course, meaning Morgoth.


What I'm trying to say, after all - contrary to my prior opinion on the subject, there might have actually been a metaphysical 'curse' on Hurin and his family, allowed (for whatever Jobian reason) by Iluvatar.




Other than that, I seem to think that we're in complete agreement about the stuff with the Dwarves and Thingol, I guess.
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Old 08-14-2023, 08:32 AM   #99
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Well, it's a moot point as far as this project is concerned. But it still seems to me that admitting Hurin to Doriath was not an evil deed but only a foolish one. Moreover, if we are considering Morgoth's curse, it had already been admitted to Doriath years earlier when Turin was accepted as a fosterling.

If I'm analyzing the story in a writerly mode, the danger I see with the "evil deeds" explanation is that it may feel too ad hoc - that it feels as if the Girdle fails for no reason other than that this is the moment in the story when the author needs Doriath to be invaded by a hostile force. For me, the notion of the cursed treasure itself being the thing that gnaws away at the strength of the Girdle from within offers a satisfying narrative solution.

Again, though, this is neither here nor there as far as the project goes.
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Old 08-16-2023, 06:42 AM   #100
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Activity on the forum!!! a miracle!! I would love to join in, but I must admit that the Ruin of Doriath text is particularly difficult for me to parse at this time. Is there a way to post a full update to the text including the most up-to-date revisions instead of just editing little pieces here and there? It would be very helpful for making sense of it all.
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Old 08-17-2023, 03:26 AM   #101
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Hi everyone,

As I said in the other post, I'd like to try and give my contribution if I can.

For me the most logical explanation for the girdle not working anymore is the presence of the cursed hoard on which Glaurung (in which a good part of the power of Morgoth has been spent) as slept on the treasure for so long... it makes him a powerful enemy even from dead...

The combiened curses of the dragon and of Mim, triggered by evil (the blood of elves and men spilled on the treasure) in a way activate the curse or increase its power...
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Old 08-25-2023, 03:16 PM   #102
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ArcusCalion I have heard you! And I agree that it would be good to have new version in the privat forum. I will work on that as soon as time allows. But bear with me, if it is some days. I am ab it out of training for that kind of exercise, and have to re-check up to which point I work in the new material into my working copy.

About the points discussed: I have read them once, but without the actual text in mind our beside the discussion. So my answers need a new and fresh day.

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Old 08-29-2023, 03:54 AM   #103
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Before I start editing an updated version for the private forum, lets settle some points:

RD-SL-03.5: The Nauglamír made for Felagund or Thingol? as Said before I am open both ways. And since in Books Forum and here some strong opinions have be raised against a pre-existing Nauglamír I will prepare the text with the Necklace made for Thingol.

RD-SL-05: Okay, we skip the quarrels on the road, even so I found them a nice example of how the curse of Mîm did work.

RD-SL-12: The 'weight beyond belief of gold was used in the making' of the Nauglamír: Sorry, my bad, this must for sure be changed to silver, but the argument that the 'beyond belief' is a supporter for the strife about the agreed 'price of one tithe of the unwrought metals' is none the less valid.

RD-SL-13: Okay, I see what you mean here. As nothing in the newer sources shades any doubt on the earlier decision, the two smithies are out and the dwarves work just once to fashion all the nice things and the Nauglmír.

RD-SL-21: I agree to the last proposal that only the evil deeds should be taken as a reason. I see the logic behind the argument that Húrin brings the curse of Morgoth over all that he deals with even so that will not be mentioned in our text. But more weight has the curse of Mîm and Glaurung on the treasure: Letting Húrin in is done out of pity and can't be an evil deed (it nonetheless can be foolish as Aiwendil said). But in dealing with the treasure Thingol and his Elves start to act evilly: They argue with Húrins men about it (Avarice) and thus in the end kill them (Wrath). And when Melain steps in to warn Thingol about the treasure he still does not follow her advice and hoards it (Pride, Gluttony). Then he goes even farther by inviting the Dwarves to work on it and thus making some use of it, which means showing it forth as his own (Pride). So we can find at least 4 of 7 cardinal sins done inside Doriath by Thingol all trigerd by the accursed hoard.

RD-SL-22: The hunt had been controversially discussed even before we got the new material. Now at the long last I must agree, there is no longer any reason for the hunt of being useful for the story line. I would wish that we could still hold some of the details of Thingols death being caught with the Nauglamír in a bush and rendered helpless in that way, since it is again an excellent example of how Mîm's curse works, but I don't see how we could do that inside Menegroth.
Any how my reasoning for reinstalling Melain’s scenes was that they fitted very well with the girdle being rendered useless and the attack on Menegroth coming as a surprise. I agree that the plan of Naugaldur to carry her is to be skipped. But Naugladur bringing Thingols head on a pole and Melian thus learning of his death and blaming Naugladur and in the same instant telling him that he has domed himself (by taking the Nauglamír) seem very much in agreement with the later conception.

RD-SL-54: I do not see why this shouldn't be said. That the Downfall of Doriath brought some lasting estrangement between Elves and Dwarves is matter of fact. And shown in many conversations in [i]LotR[/b]. And that some Dwarves sided with the evil forces before and after these events is as well attested in earlier and later writings.

I will prepare the text for the private forum to reflect this stand of the discussion, but mark it as 'in progress'.

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Old 08-29-2023, 08:19 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
Before I start editing an updated version for the private forum, lets settle some points:


RD-SL-22: The hunt had been controversially discussed even before we got the new material. Now at the long last I must agree, there is no longer any reason for the hunt of being useful for the story line. I would wish that we could still hold some of the details of Thingols death being caught with the Nauglamír in a bush and rendered helpless in that way, since it is again an excellent example of how Mîm's curse works, but I don't see how we could do that inside Menegroth.
Any how my reasoning for reinstalling Melain’s scenes was that they fitted very well with the girdle being rendered useless and the attack on Menegroth coming as a surprise. I agree that the plan of Naugaldur to carry her is to be skipped. But Naugladur bringing Thingols head on a pole and Melian thus learning of his death and blaming Naugladur and in the same instant telling him that he has domed himself (by taking the Nauglamír) seem very much in agreement with the later conception.
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Sorry if I came back to this point, but I don't understand why we should remove the hunt. In absence of any explicit statement of Tolkien removing it, I would keep the whole scene as in TN. The theme of tragedy during important festival is important to Tolkien. Furthermore the fact that Thingol cannot organize the defense of Doriath, explains better why the dwarves are able to sack it.
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Old 08-29-2023, 09:43 AM   #105
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RD-EX-54: That the ruin of Doriath led to an estrangement between Dwarves and Elves is not, I think, in dispute. The part I object to is "and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]". Even if some Dwarves did turn to Morgoth, in the later conception this seems to have been an infrequent thing, and it doesn't seem appropriate to state it here as if it applies broadly to all or most Dwarves. Whereas "Concerning 'The Hoard'" says of the Dwarves that they were "no servants of the Evil Vala".

So I would make this:

Quote:
RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves{, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]}.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Val Balmer
Sorry if I came back to this point, but I don't understand why we should remove the hunt. In absence of any explicit statement of Tolkien removing it, I would keep the whole scene as in TN. The theme of tragedy during important festival is important to Tolkien. Furthermore the fact that Thingol cannot organize the defense of Doriath, explains better why the dwarves are able to sack it.
"Concerning 'The Hoard'" strongly implies, to me at least, that Thingol was killed during the attack on Menegroth. Reintroducing the hunt from TN seemed justified to me as a way of implementing the idea of Thingol being lured beyond the Girdle. With that idea gone, I don't see any compelling reason to reintroduce it, and I see a reason against it in "Concerning 'The Hoard'".
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Old 08-29-2023, 10:22 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post

"Concerning 'The Hoard'" strongly implies, to me at least, that Thingol was killed during the attack on Menegroth. Reintroducing the hunt from TN seemed justified to me as a way of implementing the idea of Thingol being lured beyond the Girdle. With that idea gone, I don't see any compelling reason to reintroduce it, and I see a reason against it in "Concerning 'The Hoard'".
The only passage in CtH related to the death of Thingol is this:
"The dwarf-host entered Doriath and most of Thingol’s warriors perished. His halls were violated and he himself slain."

It is so much compressed that it cannot imply anything, at least for me

Furthermore, in the original tale it does not seem to me that Thingol is lured outside the girdle, but only outside of Menegroth, and this justifies the lack of organisation of the elven armies.
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Old 08-30-2023, 04:49 AM   #107
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RD-EX-54: Agreed on the part of the estrangement. But I still find the "drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]" justified. Look at the senece in Rivendell: Gloin came there to ask for some counsel but nearly he did broke up the Council of Elrond by bring up some old grudge against King Thranduil. We can read in his report of Dain's dealing with the messenger from Mordor that he is temped to buy that peace giving out some information. And Dain is the king of the Longbeards, the one house of Dwarves most friendly with the Elves.

I agree that the statment is very general, but that is rather an argument to include it than for execlusion. It is not said that all Dwarves were from that point onward under the shadow nor that any particular Dwarves were. It rather said that overall the Dwarves tended more to side with the forces in oppostion to the Elves. And that is found true easily: Already we know from Dwarves and Men that probably 3 of the 7 Houses were under the shadow. Up to that point the two Beleraindic Houses and the Longbeards could be called freindly to the Elves. Thus it needs nothing more than the Nogrod Dwarves estranged from the Elves to make that statement true.

About the hunt: The question here is, if it is an removal or if the hunt was removed by Tolkien. Q30 still includes the hunt, CtH does not. But CCtH is very condensed and if I compare Q30 to the The later Annals of Beleriand from the same time, we can see that compression can lead to the lose of details such as the hunt without them being skipped. But in The later Annals ... still the sequence of events is the same:
- Dwarves invade Doriath
- Thingol was slain
- Thousand Caves were plundered
And that is true even in the later Tale of the Years. In all of its versions from A to D. But the dating of these versions is not given so that we can only deduce from the story of Celegorm and Curufin fighting against the Dwarves at the Ford that they were written between 1951-2 (when the Grey Annals were written) too 1963 (when the fight at the Ford was given Back to Beren).
But it is changed now in CtH were it is:
- Dwarves entered Doriath
- Thousand Caves were violated
- Thingol was slain
This is an evidence for a changed story. But it does not rule out the hunt absoultley. What seem more telling for me is the fact the the violation of his halls and Thingols death are mentioned in one single sentence, while the enterance to Doriath and the perishing most of Thingol's warriors is in a seperated sentence.

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Old 08-30-2023, 07:55 AM   #108
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Just to let of all you know: I have posted the text of this chapter as it stands now in the private forum. You will find both: a text with editing marked and a plain text. Enjoy the read.

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Old 08-30-2023, 08:02 AM   #109
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Concerning the hunt, I agree with Findegil that the hunt still works.

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Old 08-30-2023, 12:40 PM   #110
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About the hunt: while I'm not sure about its relevance in the later version, I still think the hunt in itself is a nice piece of worldbuilding, which, even if we cut it out from the ruin of Doriath, should be mentioned somewhere.


Also, Findegil, I see on the private forum that you decided to keep the part where Thingol offers the outlaws a share of the treasure - but given what we've seen in 'Concerning... The Hoard', I can't help but disagree.

While the new version is pretty condensed, I think that the gist of it is that the outlaws didn't just want a few trinkets here and there: they claimed the entire hoard, as did Thingol!

Quote:
The outlaws, released from the presence of Húrin, claimed that it was theirs, won by their weapons and labour. Fighting broke out, even in the inviolable halls of Thingol.
This quote IMO implies that there was never any possibility of a compromise (or payment to the outlaws short of the whole treasure) - probably due to the curse(s).


Additionally, I think we should replace all the references to Thingol's obsession with gold in The Nauglafring with silver (as per 'Concerning'): such as references to a helm of gold, a hilt of gold, golden trappings for his steed, etc.

I also have a problem with this line:

Quote:
...and indeed it was one of their grievances of old against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there. Therefore Naugladur vowed to rest not ere Mîm was thrice avenged...
Given the sheer contempt in which the Petty-dwarves were held by by their 'greater' counterparts in the later writings, I find this part implausible.

It's true that in the 'Concerning' there is this line:

Quote:
Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mim was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains).
But judging by the context, this is merely a rationalization for them taking more than is their due. I seriously doubt that Naugladur would care one bit about Mim - certainly not to the point of publicly proclaiming that he would avenge him thricefold.
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Old 08-30-2023, 12:57 PM   #111
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Actually, now that I think about it, there might be a problem with the idea of Thingol dying in Menegroth - the problem being Melian of course (unless we go with the 'Melian abandoned Thingol' interpretation of the Girdle's disappearance).

Let's say that we do combine the hunt with 'Concerning', a plausible sequence of events might go like this:

1) Thingol and his retinue are ambushed somewhere in Doriath

2) Most of his warriors perish

3) Thingol and the remaining warriors retreat to Menegroth

4) Thingol makes a final stand there, and is killed


But...where is Melian in all of this? She is, after all, a powerful entity, a Maia. Surely she could've helped somehow (if she wanted to)?
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Old 08-30-2023, 07:56 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Findegil
RD-EX-54: Agreed on the part of the estrangement. But I still find the "drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]" justified. Look at the senece in Rivendell: Gloin came there to ask for some counsel but nearly he did broke up the Council of Elrond by bring up some old grudge against King Thranduil. We can read in his report of Dain's dealing with the messenger from Mordor that he is temped to buy that peace giving out some information. And Dain is the king of the Longbeards, the one house of Dwarves most friendly with the Elves.

I agree that the statment is very general, but that is rather an argument to include it than for execlusion. It is not said that all Dwarves were from that point onward under the shadow nor that any particular Dwarves were. It rather said that overall the Dwarves tended more to side with the forces in oppostion to the Elves. And that is found true easily: Already we know from Dwarves and Men that probably 3 of the 7 Houses were under the shadow. Up to that point the two Beleraindic Houses and the Longbeards could be called freindly to the Elves. Thus it needs nothing more than the Nogrod Dwarves estranged from the Elves to make that statement true.
I still disagree. There was a very clear change in Tolkien's opinion about Dwarves over the course of his writings, and even if we could perform the logical contortions needed to allow that the statement from TN might still not technically contradict any definite statements from later works, the statement is of a piece with the earlier conception of Dwarves, and I see no reason to retain it when that is removed.

Moreover, I think the statement as written simply can't be technically correct. It says that the Dwarves (i.e. as a whole) have drawn more nigh in friendship to the kin of Melko than to the Elves. Yet, for all that there is clearly some antipathy between Elves and Dwarves, we have many examples of them peacefully coexisting in later ages and little in the way of actual violence between them. On the other hand, we have only sporadic hints of Dwarves in later ages actually allying with Sauron or the other former followers of Morgoth, and we have plenty of violence between them, even with a special enmity between Dwarves and Orcs (followers of Morgoth).

Quote:
About the hunt: The question here is, if it is an removal or if the hunt was removed by Tolkien. Q30 still includes the hunt, CtH does not. But CCtH is very condensed and if I compare Q30 to the The later Annals of Beleriand from the same time, we can see that compression can lead to the lose of details such as the hunt without them being skipped. But in The later Annals ... still the sequence of events is the same:
- Dwarves invade Doriath
- Thingol was slain
- Thousand Caves were plundered
And that is true even in the later Tale of the Years. In all of its versions from A to D. But the dating of these versions is not given so that we can only deduce from the story of Celegorm and Curufin fighting against the Dwarves at the Ford that they were written between 1951-2 (when the Grey Annals were written) too 1963 (when the fight at the Ford was given Back to Beren).
But it is changed now in CtH were it is:
- Dwarves entered Doriath
- Thousand Caves were violated
- Thingol was slain
This is an evidence for a changed story. But it does not rule out the hunt absoultley. What seem more telling for me is the fact the the violation of his halls and Thingols death are mentioned in one single sentence, while the enterance to Doriath and the perishing most of Thingol's warriors is in a seperated sentence.
I think that the parsing out of a sequence of events here is unfounded. Look at these sentences from AB2, the Tale of Years, and 'Concerning "The Hoard"':

Quote:
Originally Posted by AB2
Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plun-
dered
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToY
Thingol is slain, and his realm ended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CtH
His halls were violated and he himself slain.
In none of these do we have a sequence of events. "Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plundered" does not tell us in what order those two events occurred, nor does "His halls were violated and he himself slain." I think that the farthest we can go in teasing out any kind of sequence of events from these is to say that in all of them, the Dwarves enter Doriath first, and both the sacking of Menegroth and the death of Thingol occur afterward. (In this, all three differ from the version imagined in the note where Thingol was lured beyond his borders). But they say nothing about the order of Thingol's death and the sacking.

Which is all to say that despite my reluctance to keep the hunt, I don't see that CtH presents any difficulties for it from a sequence-of-events perspective. I had also forgotten that the hunt was still present in Q. So I'm now less opposed to retaining it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arvegil
Given the sheer contempt in which the Petty-dwarves were held by by their 'greater' counterparts in the later writings, I find this part implausible.
I'm not sure that this contradicts the line you object to. One might hold another group in contempt and still object to their being hunted for sport. Moreover, since this text comes in the context of explaining the attack of the Dwarves against Doriath, the "rationalization" is pertinent, even if it is only a rationalization.
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Old 08-31-2023, 03:32 AM   #113
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RD-EX-54: I am not adamnat on this. If you really think it is out of line here, we can skip it.

The Hunt: The death of Thingol is easier to be understood with the hunt included: If he is huntig, he is outside his strong hold, he is away from most of his warriors, he is away from Melian. Beside that the only details that we have about his death and how the curse of Mîm took a part in it, are from an outside place, not from inside Menegroth (even so we know that the caves had a rebuild naturalistic look). As the Hunt is never really contradicted, but only leftout possibly due to compression, I think the above mentioned reason might be enough to keep the hunt.

Arvegil145: Your sequence can work, but I don't see evidence to incould it in our text.

RD-SL-08: Okay, if the outlaws are unable to compromise, what about this edditing:
Quote:
:§288 (§17b) RD-EX-20.1 <TN Now therefore did those of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur,> {The}the outlaws, released from the presence of Húrin, claimed that it was theirs, won by their weapons and labour.{ Fighting broke out, even in the inviolable halls of Thingol.}RD-SL-08c <TN {and}And one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'
RD-EX-20.11<TN, move from below Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold.> Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol] for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: ‘Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the {Rodothlim}[Noldor] who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only {Úrin}[Húrin] by reason of his son Túrin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Túrin is dead and {Úrin}[Húrin] will have none of it; and Túrin was my man.{’}
(§19) {At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, until the king said: }‘Get ye now gone, and seek not O foolish ones to quarrel with the Elves of the forest, lest death or the dread enchantments of Valinor find you in the woods. Neither revile ye the name of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] their king, for I will reward you richly enough for your travail and the bringing of the gold. Let each one now approach and take what he may grasp with either hand, and then depart in peace.’
§290 (§20) {Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk did as they were bid, and yet more, for some went into the hoard twice and thrice, and angry cries were raised in that hall. Then would the woodland Elves hinder them of their thieving, and a great dissension arose, so that though the king would stay them none heeded him. Then did those outlaws}RD-EX-20.12 <TN, moved from above At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath,> [u]and[/b] being fierce and fearless folk draw swords and deal blows about them, so {that}RD-EX-20.13 <TN, moved from above even though the king would stay them none heeded him, and> soon there was a great fight even upon the steps of the high-seat of the king.
Doughty were those outlaws and great wielders of sword and axe from their warfare with Orcs, so that many were slain ere the king, seeing that peace and pardon might no longer be, summoned a host of his warriors, and those outlaws RD-EX-20.2{being wildered with the stronger magics of the king' and }confused in the dark ways of the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] were all slain fighting bitterly; but the king's hall ran with gore, and the gold that lay before his throne, scattered and spurned by trampling feet, was drenched with blood. Thus did the curse of Mîm the Dwarf RD-EX-20.25b begin its course; and yet another sorrow sown by the {Noldoli}[Noldor] of old in Valinor was come to fruit.
Then were the bodies of the RD-EX-20.3{outlaws cast forth, but the woodland Elves that were }slain {Tinwelint let bury}buried nigh to the knoll of Tinúviel,> RD-EX-20.4<Q30 and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named {Cum-nan-Arasaith,} the Mound of Avarice.>
I had to change the sequence of the sentences a bit, to have Thingol trying to keep peace, but beeing denied by the outlaws.

{gold}[silver]: You think that the complete hoard of Nargothrond should be more silver than gold? That would make sense in many places in our text. But in the end the Ascar is named 'Goldenbed' not 'Silverbed'. So gold has to remain ar considerable part of the hoard.

About the hunting down of the Petty-Dwarves as grievance for the Dwarves of Nogrod: I agree fully to Aiwendil here. It is one thing to have a feud among your own people, but if some one from outside does kill them is another matter. And anyhow it is Tolkien telling us about this in the same mix of interrests (First pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of Ered luin, than the Grey-Elves hunting Petty-Dwarves, the Dwarves of Ered Luin builing up good buisness with the Grey-Elves and helping Felagund to build Nargothrond and by that pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of their home, and then at last searching for some propaganda-reason to fight with Thingol, when the real intention is just to get the Hoard.) The same goes for the violent death of Mîm. It is just propaganda for Naugladur. And in thi scase it can even be seen easily: Mîm was killed and robbed by Húrin and his Men, but the revenge that Naugladur plans is on Thingol.

By the way: Since we hear now that Mîm was not of the kin of Nogrod, but we now that the Petty-Dwarves were driven from the mansions in the Ered Luin, we can now be sure that it was from Belegost that they had come. We could guess that before, since the news of Mîm's death reached Belegost first, but hear we have now a confirmation.

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Old 08-31-2023, 04:29 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
The Hunt: The death of Thingol is easier to be understood with the hunt included: If he is huntig, he is outside his strong hold, he is away from most of his warriors, he is away from Melian. Beside that the only details that we have about his death and how the curse of Mîm took a part in it, are from an outside place, not from inside Menegroth (even so we know that the caves had a rebuild naturalistic look). As the Hunt is never really contradicted, but only leftout possibly due to compression, I think the above mentioned reason might be enough to keep the hunt.

Arvegil145: Your sequence can work, but I don't see evidence to incould it in our text.
It's alright, my 'sequence' was just a thought experiment anyway.

As to the Hunt, while I still lean toward the idea that Thingol died in Menegroth (as per an interpretation of 'Concerning'), I'm fine either way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
RD-SL-08: Okay, if the outlaws are unable to compromise, what about this edditing:I had to change the sequence of the sentences a bit, to have Thingol trying to keep peace, but beeing denied by the outlaws.
Most of it is fine, but my original complaint was that I believe that it was Thingol who started the fight according to 'Concerning': however, the passage in question is vague enough to be interpreted either way, it's just that I think that the curse of Mim/Glaurung/Morgoth/whomever worked its way really quickly on Thingol in the later conception, potentially leading him to commit some heinous deeds.

But again, I'm fine with either interpretation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
{gold}[silver]: You think that the complete hoard of Nargothrond should be more silver than gold? That would make sense in many places in our text. But in the end the Ascar is named 'Goldenbed' not 'Silverbed'. So gold has to remain ar considerable part of the hoard.
Not at all - I'm sure there was plenty of gold in the hoard.

My problem was that in The Nauglafring, Tinwelint's obsession was with gold, not silver; and in the 'Concerning' it is the other way around (cf. the two silver thrones for himself and Melian, and the Nauglamir being made of silver - paralleling Thranduil in The Hobbit).

With that in mind, whatever trinkets made for Tinwelint in TN (i.e. gold helm, gold hilt, etc.) should be changed to 'silver', to reflect the thematic change in the 'Concerning'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
About the hunting down of the Petty-Dwarves as grievance for the Dwarves of Nogrod: I agree fully to Aiwendil here. It is one thing to have a feud among your own people, but if some one from outside does kill them is another matter. And anyhow it is Tolkien telling us about this in the same mix of interrests (First pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of Ered luin, than the Grey-Elves hunting Petty-Dwarves, the Dwarves of Ered Luin builing up good buisness with the Grey-Elves and helping Felagund to build Nargothrond and by that pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of their home, and then at last searching for some propaganda-reason to fight with Thingol, when the real intention is just to get the Hoard.) The same goes for the violent death of Mîm. It is just propaganda for Naugladur. And in thi scase it can even be seen easily: Mîm was killed and robbed by Húrin and his Men, but the revenge that Naugladur plans is on Thingol.
I guess the 'Mim being thrice avenged' and the line before that can be interpreted as propaganda/rationalization. I'm still hesitant about it, but you and Aiwendil made a decent argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
By the way: Since we hear now that Mîm was not of the kin of Nogrod, but we now that the Petty-Dwarves were driven from the mansions in the Ered Luin, we can now be sure that it was from Belegost that they had come. We could guess that before, since the news of Mîm's death reached Belegost first, but hear we have now a confirmation.
You're wrong about this, though.

In the 'Concerning', both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost took part in the invasion of Doriath:

Quote:
At last in an unhappy hour he sent for the Dwarves of the Mountains to the east from Belegost and Nogrod.
and after that

Quote:
Back in their mountains’ strongholds they plotted revenge, and not long after they came down with a great force and invaded Doriath.
which leads me to

Quote:
Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mim was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains).
So, in the 'Concerning' at least, Mim was not related to either the Dwarves of Nogrod or Belegost.


P.S. The idea that it was only the Dwarves of Nogrod that attacked Doriath comes from 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn', right? But that text was written in the '50s, while 'Concerning... The Hoard' dates from c. 1964.

Is there any text later than 'Concerning... The Hoard' that has only the Dwarves of Nogrod take part in the invasion?
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Old 08-31-2023, 05:42 AM   #115
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There's an interesting comment by Hammond and Scull, in regards to 'Concerning... The Hoard', from lotrplaza.com:

Quote:
With regard to the ruin of Doriath, the story told in the 1964 manuscript is closer to the Quenta Noldorinwa (not published until 1986) than to The Nauglafring in The Book of Lost Tales, but differs in some respects from any published version — for instance, before beginning work on the treasure, the dwarves agree to accept a payment of a tenth of the unwrought metals. Thingol, however, is still killed outside Menegroth, with Tolkien giving two possible reasons why the dwarves were able to pass the Girdle of Melian.
My emphasis.

It seems that either Hammond and Scull misremembered the text, or, more intriguingly, came to a different conclusion regarding the death of Thingol.

The full quote is found on TG: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Conc...27The_Hoard%27
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Old 08-31-2023, 09:30 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arvegil145
In the 'Concerning', both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost took part in the invasion of Doriath
'Concerning "The Hoard"' says only that Thingol sent for the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. It does not say that the emissaries and craftsmen who came to Menegroth were from both cities, much less that both groups took part in the attack.

Since Belegost and Nogrod are so frequently mentioned together, it also seems at least possible to me that mentioning both of them in CtH was a slip of the pen, and that he had momentarily forgotten the decision that Belegost was not involved.

Lacking a more definitive statement about it, I'm inclined to retain the story that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved.

About the hunt: I can see the argument either way. I'll agree to whichever consensus others come to on this one.
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Old 08-31-2023, 10:31 AM   #117
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I mostly agree with Aiwendil in his two latest posts.

Personally, I would keep the hunt story and involve only the dwarves of Belegost.
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Old 08-31-2023, 01:05 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
'Concerning "The Hoard"' says only that Thingol sent for the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. It does not say that the emissaries and craftsmen who came to Menegroth were from both cities, much less that both groups took part in the attack.

Since Belegost and Nogrod are so frequently mentioned together, it also seems at least possible to me that mentioning both of them in CtH was a slip of the pen, and that he had momentarily forgotten the decision that Belegost was not involved.

Lacking a more definitive statement about it, I'm inclined to retain the story that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved.

About the hunt: I can see the argument either way. I'll agree to whichever consensus others come to on this one.
Did you notice the plural in:

Quote:
Back in their mountains’ strongholds they plotted revenge, and not long after they came down with a great force and invaded Doriath.
That plus:

Quote:
Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mim was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains)
The context of which to me at least heavily suggests that both Nogrod and Belegost were involved.
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Old 09-01-2023, 05:46 AM   #119
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RD-SL-18 /that is this edirtin mark dedicated to inclusion/execlusion of the Dwarves from Belegost): Arvegil145 arguments with the plurals are convincing, to me at least, that throughout CtH Dwarves from both Nogrod and Belegost are involved. It is not unthinkable as Aiwendil argued that the reversal of the decision taken by Tolkien in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn to leave the Belegost Dwarves out was a kind of consecutive slip of the pen. But I think that argument could be made of many, many changes in the story line of this particular chapter, as Tolkien changed his mind nearly as often as his shirt.
So lets look on the text itself for some weighing: In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn the information about the Belgost Dwarves is given in a kind of side note. It seems their intended to explain why the Elves of Eriador under Galadriel could build up a good relation to the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm. It has its short comings for that function anyway, since not only the Dwarves of Belegost wandered to Khazad-dûm after the destruction of Beleriand but the Dwarves of Nogrod (involved for sure in the Fall of Doriath) as well.
CtH, on the other hand, is a text concerned spezially with the story of the Fall Doriath. Tolkien might not have thought about the implication it had for the story of Ost-in-Edhil if he involved the Belegost Dwarves, but he clearly had no reasons springing from the story of the Nauglamír to reject them. And, for me at least, their inclusion also means that this did not creat a glaring problem in any other story, otherwise Tolkien would probabaly have realised it.

Long story made short: I think we have to re-insert the Dwarves of Belegost into the fighting.

Now that will raise some farther question:
- In TN the Dwarves of Bodruith and Naugladur have names of their own: Indrafangs and Nauglath. So fare we did replaced both by Naugrim which was teh generic name for all Dwarves encountered by the Eldar in Beleriand (so both from Nogrod and Belegost but not neccesarrily or only by transmission for the Long-beards of Khazad-dûm or other kindereds of the Dwarves). That was okay as long as the Noford Dwarves where the only kind present, but now we might wish to re-establish the distincion.
- the name of the Lord of the Indrafangs 'Bodruith' signified something like 'revenge'. As that now back as a motive of his actions, we should re-establich his name as well.
- If we take the splited forces of the attacking Dwarves as they acted in TN, I think we should make Bodruith the leader of the first invader of Menegroth talking to Melian before Naugladur enters.
- What is about the treachary of Bodruith against Naugladur on the way back and following infight among the Dwarves? It would fit the theme of the curse of Mîm and help explain why Beren with a hand full of Green-Elves could annihilate an army that the full muster of Doriath could not even stop from plundering Menegroth.
- If we take that treachary of Bodruith in again, who comes than to the timely rescue of Naugladur?

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: If I would be in for more Fan-Fictional versions of the story, I would take Ibûn, the son of Mîm, into the story: He would after the death of Mîm search his way to Belegost and their been admitted 'back' into the societie out of pity. He would thus be the source of the information abouts Mîm violent death by the hands of Húrin and his Outlaws. Triggering the final descision to march against Doriath. Following Bodruith into the Battle of Menegorth he might than be the one to talk to Melian and take as well the rolle of Ufedhin in the treachary of Bodruith. As murder of his new lord he could hardly go back to Belegost and thus would fly into the woods 'for he could
not endure to look upon the eyes of Gwendelin, and madness took
him, and none may say what was his unhappy weird thereafter;
and little but a tortured heart got he from the Gold of Glorund.'
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Old 09-02-2023, 06:29 AM   #120
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While I agree that if we keep both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost in, Bodruith should also stay in.

However, this is where we run into the old dilemma of what to do with the very early names - maybe we should just keep the Lord of Belegost unnamed.
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