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11-13-2017, 01:10 PM | #1 | |
Haunting Spirit
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Lord of the Rings TV series gets multi-season order at Amazon
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11-13-2017, 01:25 PM | #2 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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*Sigh* I just can't separate the motives from the actual product. I had the same issue with PJ's movies when I first learned of their coming, When profit is the objective in adaptations of existing works, changes are going to be allowed based on the bottom line, and fidelity to the spirit of the original goes right out the (round) window. They can bloody well keep it.
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11-13-2017, 04:25 PM | #3 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I'm somewhat comforted by the fact that the Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos is already known to be a big fan of the fantasy genre and that he was directly involved in discussing this project with the Tolkien Estate and Trust. I want to believe that he is passionate about these works and will try to use his position to keep things as canon as possible. Sure, it is ultimately about the money in the end, but the Matt Galsor snippet from the Estate and HarperCollins representative gives me hope:
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http://deadline.com/2017/11/amazon-t...nt-1202207065/
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11-13-2017, 04:41 PM | #4 | |
Quentingolmo
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11-13-2017, 04:57 PM | #5 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Ugh
It is a fearsome struggle to constrain myself to socially acceptable vocabulary to describe my reaction to this news.
There is no reason for somebody who respects Tolkien's work to be optimistic about the end product. Jeff Bezos being a "fan" of the fantasy genre could mean almost anything...in fact, I feel worse about it because you get some crazy ideas being a "fan" of something. That the focus of this project is going to be the vaporous netherworld of "before the Fellowship of the Ring" is just a blanket statement from the beginning that they intend to pull whatever they feel like pulling out of their hindquarters. At least they are kind of honest about it. Perhaps they will at least have enough of a sense of humor to rename Butterbur to Butterfinger. EDIT: I figured out the best way to phrase my dismay, to wit: "I have a bad feeling that this TV series is going to make The Hobbit films look tasteful and well-crafted by comparison."
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 11-13-2017 at 05:04 PM. |
11-13-2017, 06:14 PM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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So, after all, it is just a "glorified fan fiction" show, expanding little bits and pieces of narrative, not really an adaptation?
That destroys what little interest I had. All this will serve to do is perpetuate the cloying atmosphere of misunderstanding and misinformation surrounding Professor Tolkien's work - this one man's lifelong labour of love - in the public consciousness. Of course, it's not being made for people like me. I'm sure it will please a certain kind of audience, however.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
11-13-2017, 07:20 PM | #7 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Ah, so it's not meant to be an adaptation of "The Lord of the Rings" itself, but rather some sort of "Before the Fellowship" exploration of the characters' backstories, as detailed in the elusive Appendix X? And it's going to be the *most expensive series ever made?*
Sounds like fun...
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11-13-2017, 08:24 PM | #8 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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And considering that GOT book fans forgave the show quite a few deviations given that it captures the essence, the same could be applied to other fandoms as well. The other thing about "the new GOT" is that it threatens to turn into this: a competition between Tolkien's characters and GRRM's works over who is more badass, which is not a comparison that will yield anything productive. Oh my god... this is the hybrid. Foreseen by the prophecy which speaks of a hybrid of two warrior fandoms, which threatens the existence of the universe. The hybrid risks stopping time itself! Watch for some doctor involved in the affair. (Cheers to all the Whovians more patiently awaiting the Christmas special)
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11-13-2017, 08:44 PM | #9 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I understand that money clouds judgement when people are making the call as to what to add, embellish, or cut from original works when adapting them to bigger, "better" media. If that's your thing, run with it. No drama.
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11-13-2017, 10:15 PM | #10 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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At least we didn't have to deal with that.
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11-14-2017, 12:09 AM | #11 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Still convinced this will be a Sil adaptation. The Tolkien Estate don't own the film rights to LotR or The Hobbit, so they can't be involved in the sale of them to Amazon. It's Middle-earth related, so it's not Smith, or Niggle. And if Amazon have paid $200mil for the rights, its something significant. As to my feelings-well, it would be potentially amazing to see Feanor and the rebellion, the great wars, the Fall of Gondolin... but not if they're going for a GoT vibe.
That said, given that I avoid Amazon on principle, and will continue to do so until they sort out their business practices, its all a bit academic for me. |
11-14-2017, 01:45 AM | #12 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Good point, but the article *calls* it a "LotR series" and says specifically that the deal concerns "global TV rights to 'Lord of the Rings'". Even the direct quote from the representative for the Estate and Harper Collins calls it "the first-ever multi-season television series for The Lord of the Rings".
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
11-14-2017, 02:17 AM | #13 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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11-14-2017, 09:09 AM | #14 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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My bet is on a young Aragorn, although some kind of adaptation of the Sil might be possible.
I guess if they really want to go full on Game of Thrones they could do the Kin-strife. EDIT: I take it all back. It just hit me: The Children of Hurin. It has the grimness, the unhappy ending, and the requisite incest. EDIT EDIT: Although, who owns the rights to The Children of Hurin?
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 11-14-2017 at 09:27 AM. |
11-14-2017, 09:27 AM | #15 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Warners have licensed the movie rights for the Aragorn story from Zaentz as it is, so there's no need for any Estate involvement, let alone the handing over of all that money to them. I wouldn't rule out some Third Age stuff, I'm just genuinely confused about what the Estate has to sell, if it isn't The Sil stuff.
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11-14-2017, 09:32 AM | #16 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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The most generous interpretation would say that anything included in the appendices of LOTR could be considered off limits, but I can't think that interpretation would hold water because that would be so sweeping.
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11-14-2017, 09:38 AM | #17 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I can't substantiate this, but I feel like I remember there being some kind of grey area due to the substantial overlap between The Silmarillion and the Appendices.
I think I've mentioned before my "maybe I just dreamt it" impression that there was some stipulation that if a narrative element was mentioned in both the Appendices and The Silmarillion (or other material not part of the film rights) but not in the main text of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings it could not be adapted, but if it was mentioned in the body of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings proper it could be regardless of whether it was mentioned in The Silmarillion et al. But as I say, I can't back that up. If there's any truth to it, it might explain the Estate's involvement, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm reaching.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
11-14-2017, 10:20 AM | #18 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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This affair seems to be getting more peculiar the more we hear about it, doesn't it? Is it possible Zaentz only holds the film rights and not the TV rights?
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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11-14-2017, 10:30 AM | #19 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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11-14-2017, 09:06 PM | #20 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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The press release specifically states:
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What is one left with then? Look to HoMe, and the Unfinished Tales, specifically Part III and Part IV dealing with the Third Age but divorced from the LotR Appendices in most instances. This fits the modus operandi of "unexplored stories" and "new storylines...preceding FotR", but does not require selling media rights to The Sil, and does not interfere with separate rights held by Tolkien Enterprises (Saul Zaentz) who own the multimedia rights to The Hobbit and LotR.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 11-14-2017 at 09:22 PM. |
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11-14-2017, 09:22 PM | #21 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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11-15-2017, 05:59 PM | #22 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Well, this explains a lot. C. Tolkien has resigned as Director of the Tolkien Estate...
https://io9.gizmodo.com/j-r-r-tolkie...sta-1820476459 The vultures didn't even wait for the body to get cold.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
11-15-2017, 07:46 PM | #23 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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11-15-2017, 07:47 PM | #24 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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And it's something I've been thinking for a long time. As much as CJRT / the estate may have been disliked for forcing individual artists and businessmen and other simple people to stop publishing or close businesses that somehow impinge on the rights, he's gonna be missed, and missed a lot, now that he's not in control.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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11-15-2017, 08:16 PM | #25 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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11-15-2017, 08:35 PM | #26 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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What did I tell you?
Well. I refer you all to my comment #5 on this thread.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
11-15-2017, 09:09 PM | #27 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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11-16-2017, 12:52 AM | #28 |
Illustrious Ulair
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I've always had mixed feelings about CT's approach to his father's work. For whatever reasons he tried to relegate the works to the realm of academe. I'm grateful he made the unpublished works available, but the accompanying mass of notes and commentary he added makes them (apart from the Sil) an horrific chore. He clearly hated the fact that his father's creation he been taken up by a bunch of hippies (many of them lefties too ), and sought to return them to their 'rightful' place, by handing them over to a bunch of professors. Most of the stuff he published would have been better if it had been put out with a basic 20 pp intro. The LotR movies (critical as I am of many parts of them) contain more of what touched the hearts of most book fans, than the interminable droning commentaries of CT, Flieger, and Hammond & Scull, et al
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11-16-2017, 06:15 AM | #29 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think the notes and commentary in The History of Middle-Earth series, providing a detailed explanation to more betterly understand the true state of the Silmarillion, its external history and related accounts, all of this is rather the point... given that we already have/had an "internal" version (the 1977 constructed Silmarillion), for what I call the reader's experience.
Add to that The Children of Hurin, of course this time presented as a one volume tale after all the fragments and commentaries had been published. And if I want my "reader's experience" for Tuor's arrival in Gondolin for example (Unfinished Tales), it's pretty easy to skip the brief introduction and the end notes. Same goes for the early Fall of Gondolin published in The Book of Lost Tales II, for instance. And Nerwen the oracle! Last edited by Galin; 11-16-2017 at 12:30 PM. |
11-16-2017, 08:30 AM | #30 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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And, of course, without being flippant, isn't it a bit like a wise King of Númenor abdicating the throne in his old age, not trying to hang on forever? The responsibility then falls, as it should, upon future generations. The analogy fits all too well, I fear, given what happened in Númenor as the years passed and what's already happening now.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigûr; 11-16-2017 at 08:36 AM. |
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11-16-2017, 10:31 AM | #31 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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------------------ I would say, rather, that (especially in the wake of the movies) "He clearly hated the fact that his father's creation had been taken up by a bunch of sloped-forehead mouthbreathers." I would be rather upset at seeing the family silver being used by the mob for screwdrivers, spittoons and dog dishes (while all the while telling me what fans of my silver they are and what wonderful screwdrivers, spittoons and dog dishes it makes). I think that CT (who after all was a professor) was determined that his father's writings be taken seriously, by scholars, and therefore he took a serious, scholarly approach to his editions. He was, after all, writing the history of his father's legendarium, and there's no way that barn's worth of fragments and unfinished revisions could have been presented coherently without extensive notes and commentary.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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11-16-2017, 10:37 AM | #32 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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11-16-2017, 11:04 AM | #33 | |
Odinic Wanderer
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Of course another well known Danish fan was the future Queen Margrethe II... I think that is what can be described as having a broad appeal. |
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11-16-2017, 02:22 PM | #34 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I will admit to being curious if the production team for the TV show will take the design aesthetic in a direction away from the designs laid out by Jackson and Co.
For example, being a dwarf, it has been very interesting to me to note that things like Jackson's idea that "dwarves don't build anything in circles, only octagons" has pervaded the fantasy genre so that idea now crops up almost everywhere. I wonder if the new team will forge their own path aesthetically or if they will just follow in the footsteps of Jackson. Of if, indeed, Jackson is going to end up being involved in the project in some way. For some reason, the news about C. Tolkien has made me go back to my original idea that this series is going to focus on young Aragorn.
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11-16-2017, 03:30 PM | #35 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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I wouldn't hold my breath for Silmarillion anything, because in that case CT isn't just his father's executor, he's also the co-author and therefore enjoys an absolute veto no matter what the Estate's new management might want.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
11-16-2017, 05:16 PM | #36 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Young Aragorn looks ever more likely.
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11-16-2017, 07:49 PM | #37 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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What other books are there that they could draw on that are not co-authored by CJRT? Seems like a pretty limited selection - while he's alive at least to veto them. I suppose we're gonna see just how much made up stuff was actually "all in the appendices". At some point poor finite LOTR will get appendicitis.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
11-17-2017, 12:18 AM | #38 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 11-17-2017 at 12:25 AM. |
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11-17-2017, 07:59 AM | #39 | |
Laconic Loreman
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I will wager there's a better chance Orlando Bloom is involved than PJ. All though, when it comes to anything Lord of the Rings-Hollywood industry relation, just when you think they're out of the picture...they flare back up. I do think if they want the "events preceding the Fellowship" to be adapted, a TV series is a much better medium than whatever it is Jackson was trying to do with his Hobbit trilogy. The world is changing, gone are the days of the low-budget and extremely campy (but loveable in their own way) tv series.
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11-17-2017, 08:13 AM | #40 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Sort of against my will, I want to see this TV series be well done...not that I expect anything of the sort. Just setting myself up for the inevitable disappointment. I can just see Jackson already trying to work his way into the project. I fear that for the low knowledge corporate types he would seem like a big prize to score for the project since his name is already so heavily tied to the brand, they would think they are ensuring the success of the show by bringing him on board.
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