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Old 12-17-2001, 07:47 PM   #1
Man-of-the-Wold
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Tolkien BLUE WIZARDS

Beyond that told in "The Unfinished Tales," what is known about the "other two" Istari? -- the blue wizards, who went into the east, and like everyone but Gandalf did not return to the West.

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" . . . and they did know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness."

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]
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Old 12-17-2001, 07:55 PM   #2
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http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=2&t=000115
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Old 12-17-2001, 08:25 PM   #3
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1420!

Those were Alatar and Pallando.
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Old 12-17-2001, 09:20 PM   #4
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Tolkien

I'm not sure if this is the best spot to continue a discussion on the Blue Wizrds, now that Man-of-the-Wold's question has been answered, but 'm going to anyway.

Perhaps the Blue Wizards who went east did so with the intention of breaking up the alliance of Sauron and the peoples of the east? Perhaps in this they failed and were killed (which is why they disappear from the records)?
My memory fails me about Gandalf and his encounter in Moria. I know he comes back (which seems to suggest the Istari can't be killed but reborn) - does this mean that as Maia the Blue Wizards can't have been killed in the east? If their mission was to thwart Sauron they wouldn't have simply wandered off would they?
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Old 12-18-2001, 09:56 AM   #5
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Peregrine, you are quite right about the Blue Wizards' mission. They went to the East to help the Men there to get free of Sauron's dominion. We can't be exactly sure whether they failed or not, as Tolkien's texts leave room for both possibilities and they suggest both.

In the Unfinished Tales, we have the story that they probably failed and established some "magic cults" which outlasted Sauron's reign. The Peoples of Middle-Earth (HoME 12), on the other hand, tells us that they put up succesful resistance movements in the East, which drained Sauron's resources so that the western people didn't face Sauron's whole might, and thus allowed them to win the war. This text also gives different names for the Blue Wizards (Morinehtar and Romestamo). Either Tolkien couldn't make up his mind, or he simply forgot what he had written earlier.

The Wizards can be killed (or to be more accurate "permanently disembodied"). When they took up the mission, they had to agree not to use their full Maiarin powers, and they had to take up Mannish bodies and all the troubles the body brings with it (such as hunger). My impression always was that theit powers were limited in other ways as well, not only by an agreement. Saruman, at least, was unable to reform himself.

Gandalf's return was a special case. He didn't pull of the recovery himself, he was aided by Eru. Eru took Gandalf "out of time and thought" and enhanced his powers and then sent him back without the usual wizardly restrictions. That's why Gandalf the White is so much greater than Gandalf the Grey.
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Old 12-18-2001, 10:10 AM   #6
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In Peoples of Middle Earth (I believe), JRRT comments that the mission of the Blue Wizards in the East was to disrupt Sauron's attempts to recruit men to his cause and that this may have been accomplished by setting up cult-like organizations to oppose the Dark Lord. He goes on to say that their efforts may have been partially successful else matters would have been much worse during the War of the Ring. Imagine an even greater influx of Easterlings to swell Sauron's armies, assisting in the assaults upon Gondor, Rohan and The Lonely Mountain!
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Old 12-18-2001, 01:50 PM   #7
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The exact quote that Elenhin and Mithadan are referring to is in the thread I linked to in my reply, in case anyone wants to read it for themselves.
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Old 12-18-2001, 02:14 PM   #8
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Excellent.

I will one day plow the ground of the HoME. My daughter will be quite pleased. I assume the two sets of names for the azure twins might be the equvalent of Olorin & Gandalf.

It may be that instead of being corrupted, killed and lost to the void like Saruman, that the Blue Wizards simply settled in and stayed indefinitely, which is one explanation of the fate of Radagast, about which my daughter and I debate. I've opined that Saruman had him killed to cover his tracks.

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"Wilt though learn the lore.
"...that was long secret
"of the Five that came
"from a far country?
"One only returned.
"... Others never again"
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The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.
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Old 12-18-2001, 11:09 PM   #9
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If you remember correctly Radagast found Gandalf. Radagast was going north I believe, so I don't think he and Saruman would have run into each other again, or that any of his men would have been able to kill him.
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Old 12-19-2001, 04:20 PM   #10
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Aye, but he was not found later my Elrond's scouts at Rhosgobel.

Saruman had some powerful servants is not to be doubted, or perhaps the Nazgul intercepted him as they were in the Vales of Anduin for much of the time while Gandalf was imprisoned, and they and other forces of Sauron were working with imperfect coordination with Saruman.

But we really don't know for certain, either way.
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The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.
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Old 12-20-2001, 04:49 PM   #11
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Maybe the 2 blue wizards in the East set up a permanant base, like a missionary and not even the forces of Sauron in the East could defeat them.
Maybe they completed their mission and went to one of the other continents
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Old 12-28-2001, 11:43 PM   #12
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I was under the impression that each of the wizrds were sent to middle earth by the rest of the Ainur. One each from a select few of the valar.
They were sent to combat Sauron and his minions. Yet they were not allowed to fight power with power, which is why they didnt just attack Sauron outright. They had to gain the allegiances of the peoples of Middle Earth and persuade each of the races to fight against Sauron.
In the end, only Gandalf joined the last of the elves across the sea to Valinor because he was the only one of the Istari to fulfill his mission. Saruman betrayed the people of middle earth he was supposed to protect. Radagast turned his back on all but the animals, thus not fulfilling his mission. Alatar and Pallando were not with Gandalf in his ride to Valinor, thus they must not have fulfilled their mission as well.
What happened to the two, no one knows. They may have even been turned by Sauron as well.
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Old 12-30-2001, 12:08 AM   #13
Elrian
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Tolkien

What their missions truly were, were not known. So it is hard to say that Radagast was not fulfilling his, he may not have been sent for the same reason Gandalf was sent nor Saruman. Alatar and Pallando must have been sent for something different as well. Radagast may have been captured by Saurons servants fron Dol Gulder too.
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Old 01-01-2002, 06:22 PM   #14
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could it be possible that radagast's mission was indeed to turn to the animals and be their protector in the age to come. and much like that perhaps the blue wizards were sent to guide the bewildered people of the east after the destruction of sauron's empire of evil.
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