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Old 11-21-2001, 12:14 PM   #1
Mablung
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Sting Would the quest of the ring still succeded if the fellowship had not broken up?

Just wanted to know your opinions on this. I have often wondered. e.g. If gandalf had not been slayed, or boromir and if frodo and sam not gone on their own and stayed with their companions?
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Old 11-21-2001, 03:20 PM   #2
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Either way, the most immediate problem would then have beent the decision whether to go into Mordor, to Minas Tirith, or maybe, but least likely, to Rohan; and that decision could have easily broken the Fellowship then. But since the rousing of Fangorn, the taming of Smťagol etc. were eventually necessary for the West to prevail, I doubt things could have worked out that way.
What was it Heren-Istarion likes to say? Things could have been different... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 11-21-2001, 06:18 PM   #3
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Sharku, we're on the same page again [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

I think Minas Tirith would have been sacked and Rohan in shambles, but the quest would still have succeeded.

Sauron would still have been distracted by his wars, and with Aragon's help the hobbits would have gone faster through the Dead Marshes, avoided Shelob made better time.

Boromir would definately have turned south to Minas Tirith.

Aragorn would have come to the decision that stealth required a paring down of the company. Eight is too much.

He would have insisted Merry and Pippin continue South with Boromir. There's no doubt of that.

Then would have convinced Legolas and Gimli to go with those two.

Boromir would not have been none too pleased to act as halfling babysitters.

Plus he would've needed watching as to what he told his father about the ring and the coming king.

The gesture of faith of sending two warriors would have been neccessary, too.

Aragorn would have found no welcome from the people of Minas Tirith - those who lived that is. He would not have been the hero crowned king, but a stranger to them.

Boromir would have been able to prevent the suicide of Denethor, another strike against the easy step onto the throne for Aragorn.

Boromir probably would have died at the gates of Minas Tirith without the riders of Rohan and the shades from the Paths of the Dead. What can I say? Boromir was just doomed one way or the other.
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Old 11-21-2001, 08:20 PM   #4
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I think the fellowship still would have broke at the same point, only with Gandalf going with Sam, Merry, Pippin and Frodo, and Aragorn, Borormir, Legolas, and Gimli would ahve first went to Rohan, then Gondor. Unfortunately there would be no-one to rouse the Ents and Rohan would have been taken.
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Old 11-22-2001, 02:27 AM   #5
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One of my main points, though probably not mentioned explicitly enough, was that the quest of casting the Ring into the fire could not have been successful.
Gandalf was right with his prophecy that even he may play a role before the end; and the Professor points out that Frodo was only saved in the Sammath Naur by his previous pity. Otherwise, Frodo could not have mustered the resolve to cast it away, and I doubt Sam could have made him - at least not soon enough.
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Old 11-24-2001, 06:22 PM   #6
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Yes, Sharku - and first Sam would have had to find him! But Aragorn would not have let Frodo (or Sam) go alone to Mordor. He would have gone with them himself. Could he have forced Frodo to leggo the ring? This is a horrible thought, but, Frodo could have fallen just as easily in a struggle into the cracks of doom.

Elrian, I think you have Gandalf's original intention correct, though I doubt he meant for Pippin and Merry to go to Mordor. I was running with the scenario after Gandalf's fall, with Aragorn as the leader.

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Old 11-24-2001, 09:06 PM   #7
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Apart from the final outcome in our speculative setting, we have to bear in mind that in the book version each member of the Fellowship used the maximum of his potency. In the what-if setting, the losses for the West would have been far greater at any rate, since both Saruman and Sauron assaulting Minas Tirith could not have been dealt with in that scenario. Aragorn could not have saved the day on the Pelennor when he had been in Mordor, for example.
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Old 11-25-2001, 09:59 PM   #8
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First of all, technically, Gandalf was not slain, sorry, I had to.

I do not think the company would have been successful. Gollum was actually the destroyer of the ring and if the company had kept going, I bet Gollum would have been slain.

I also don't think that Gandalf would have chosen the way to go that Frodo and Sam ended up going and it ended up being a pretty easy way to destroy the ring once they finished the Orc march.
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Old 11-26-2001, 11:09 PM   #9
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Ah! What path would Gandalf have chosen? I doubt very much that passing Minas Morgul, then Shelob, and then Cirith Ungol was the best way. They were staggeringly lucky. Gandalf had years to study the moldering records of Minas Tirith made after the first fall of Sauron, no doubt there were detailed if out of date maps.

A lot of what made that route feasible was simple good strategy (and more luck, this time in meeting Faramir) on the part of Gandalf, and Aragorn, knowing they meant to take the pass by Cirith Ungol.

I don't think anyone would have had the heart to kill pathetic Smeagol. The most likely, Boromir, would have deemed him beneath killing. That was one heck of a survival strategy. Even orcs dismissed him.
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Old 11-27-2001, 01:58 PM   #10
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An interesting factor that hasn't been taken into account in these "what-if" scenarios is the corruptive lure of the Ring, especially as it neared Mount Doom. Had Gandalf and/or Aragorn led the way into Mordor, could either one have long resisted the urge to take the Ring from Frodo (with only the best intentions in mind, of course)?

I doubt that Aragorn would have been much inclined to follow Gollum's lead into the Black Land.
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Old 11-28-2001, 12:01 AM   #11
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Agreed, Aragorn would not have followed Gollum's lead. But Gollum followed all of them long before they reached the outskirts of Mordor, and there was not much he could do about it, and would have been able to do less once they were in Mordor. Rather I think Gollum would have turned up at the end, following in just the way he followed Frodo and Sam to Orodruin.

I think this connects to the discussion on the nature of the rings, how in wielding the ring Galadriel said one had to turn the will to the domination of others. I think the temptation to take the ring from Frodo would have been greatest if opposed their will at any point (when he would is unclear to me), bringing out a wish to control him - for the better of all of course. Knowing "what's best" would have been a slippery slope for both of them. It seems to me the more complicated the motives, the more easily twisted.
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Old 12-08-2001, 02:53 PM   #12
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If they had stayed together the whole of Rohan would be destroyed. Grimer Wormtounge would be telling Theoden that everything was hunkey Dorey. Minas Tirith would lie in ruins. The last decsendants of Numenor would be almost utterly wiped of the face of the Earth. Gondor would be no more. The Shire, Lothlorien, the Grey Havens, Rivendell, the Lonely Mountain, Bree and many more such places would be destroyed or in grave peril. The three Elven Rings would probably be in the hands of Sauron. Elrond, Celeborn, Galadriel, Gaffa Gamgee. ect. would be dead or running for there lives. Infact Middle Earth would be but a shadow of what it once was. I rest my case. This is why it was a good thing for the Fellowship to split up.
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Old 12-09-2001, 09:33 AM   #13
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It would have made a totally different story but i think they still would have succeded
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Old 12-12-2001, 06:38 AM   #14
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At many points it is suggested by Elrond, Gandalf and the rest that there is someone guiding events.
"Bilbo was meant to find the ring, but not by it's maker" is one of the hints. This entity could well be Eru. If this is so then he would probably have made sure Sauron was destroyed somehow. However, it might well be that if Frodo had not gone alone with Sam to put the ring in the fire Sauron would have triumphed, at least for a while.
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Old 12-12-2001, 11:32 PM   #15
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It would have been interesting to see what other reasons Tolkien may have created down the track for a parting of the fellowship. There must have come a time when the group was considered too large to get into Mordor. Perhaps Boromir would have attempted another and more successful grab for the ring?Perhaps the group might have been surprised by a roving band of orcs Isildur-style,and slain to the last-but-one hobbit, who was left to find Mordor alone? What about going around the south end and coming into Mordor from the East? I guess they didn't have time for that.

perhaps, perhaps, perhaps
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