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Old 10-06-2002, 10:17 PM   #1
Thenamir
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Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Sting Middle Earth AirForce

Thinking about the Fell Creature and its filthy brethren - why didn't Sauron mass produce these puppies, man them with whatever (men from Harad or Dunland, with Orcs for "bombs"), and thus create Middle Earth's first real airforce (a stray dragon or balrog does not an airforce make - we're talking wads of 'em). Think of the effect on Minas Tirith had a thousand of these things kamikazied into the city with incendiary devices, courtesy of Saruman and his newfangled blasting powder. Sauron, for all his Dark Power (tm), was, in the final analysis, a boogerhead concerning tactics.
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Old 10-07-2002, 12:12 AM   #2
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Kind of surprising, considering his origins, how long he'd been around, and his training with Morgoth, isn't it? But maybe they weren't created but bred, like the Nazguls' horses.
He'd have the gestation time, which can't be short for such large creatures, and then he would have to wait until they matured before he began training them, which would also take a while. All in all, it seems like a very long and involved process. And after he got his living airforce, he'd have to find a place to keep them and he'd have to have specially trained Orcs to feed and care for them (since the Nazgul certainly wouldn't do it). It just wouldn't be economically feasible.
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Old 10-07-2002, 06:11 AM   #3
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Maybe only the Nazgul could control a Fell Beast. If an Orc tried to ride on one, it might simply reach back and have itself a snack.

Come to think of it: you never see an Orc riding a horse, not even the Uruk-Hai. Wargs yes, but no horses. They must prefer eating horses to riding them.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]
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Old 10-07-2002, 10:14 AM   #4
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Birdland seems to raise the best point so far, about only Nazgul Controlling a Fell Beast, as to why Sauron didn't have an Air Force.
I don't think time would have been much of a factor against, Sauron was immortal, and could launch his full assault any time he felt ready. Well, except for the fear of someone strong enough using the ring against him. So maybe he had drop a few strategies and tactics that may have landed him a sure victory, had he not felt pressured about the ring.
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Old 10-07-2002, 03:50 PM   #5
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Eye

Partly on a diffrent and same topic i have been wondering why the Elves (elves because they are more intune with animales and with bows) why could the elves not mount the giant eagles and use them for picking off enemy archers or commanders?
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Old 10-07-2002, 09:34 PM   #6
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I guess Sauron didn't use all that he could have because he didn't want to. He probably thought nothing of Minas Tirith as all his concentration was bent on the ring, thus he used the winged creatures for it's finding. Maybe, if he had gotten the ring, he would have used them to aid his "covering of all the lands in darkness."
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Old 10-07-2002, 09:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Sauron, for all his Dark Power (tm), was, in the final analysis, a boogerhead concerning tactics.
Wow! Very true, Thenamir! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (And good point, Bird, about an orc-snack.) I guess Sauron's ego -- and ignorance about hobbits -- did get in his way.

And speaking of mass-production, why did he stop at nine Nazgul? Why not bribe a hundred kings of men to their doom? Then the Nazgul-Airborne-Unit could've piloted the FC-666's to Mordor's victory. (You know, it's not like Sauron didn't have a few thousand years to do all of this! What was he wasting his time doing? Eating bon-bons?)
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Old 10-08-2002, 08:50 AM   #8
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Sting

Perhaps he was. Who knows what Dark Lords get up to when they're not plotting to take over the world? Perhaps he spent whole decades watching soap operas and stuffing his face with ice-cream.
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Old 10-08-2002, 10:12 AM   #9
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Gosh, my old flatmate from college was the Dark Lord? She did eat a lot of icrecream, the oddly skinny creature that she was.
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Old 10-08-2002, 02:47 PM   #10
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Sting

i dont think sauron had the power to control balrogs because they were created by morgoth and would only serve him. it is the same for dragons, that is why gandalf put the party together in the hobbit to hopefully put an end to smaug lest sauron should get enough power to control him
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Old 10-09-2002, 01:05 PM   #11
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Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Sting

All too true. After all, he and his Dark Realm (Nintendo version available at a retail outlet near you in time for christmas) were destroyed by a hobbit. Although I would amend my former comments to note that the Eagles represented a passable (albeit freelance and hard to count on) airforce. And for their part, they could have carried hobbits as ballistic weapons. A hobbit may be small, but quite devastating at terminal velocity... but they had a tendency to show up at the very last moment after most of the damage is done and lots of people are dead. A bunch of Glory Boys (tm).

Arguably, Morgoth used a whole raft of balrogs and dragons against Gondolin, which would have been the first aerial assault. He wasn't such a tactical boogerhead, and basically kicked some Eldar butt for his part (and, all impressions from the Lord of the Rings aside, the elves needed a serious behind-booting in the First Age (tm)). They left the Blessed Realm (available for most platforms, MMX enhanced - requires 3D accelerator) to go "find themselves" (okay, and to find the silmarils). Feanor was a classic manic-depressive.

Quote:
Kind of surprising, considering his origins, how long he'd been around, and his training with Morgoth, isn't it?
That just makes Sauron's oversight that much more of an embarrassment. Here he is, protege of Morgoth, and what did he learn? Nothing! What was he doing during the First Age - too busy pulling legs off elves? Waxing the steps at the old dwarfs home? Sauron ("Bucky" to his friends) is a classic, sad example of one who was just not born to lead. He was great as a Lieutenant, but just wasn't ready for the epaulette. I mean, look at the whole Numenor/Second Age (GameBoy compatible) fiasco. He went from one miserable failure to another -- a long prison sentence, an unfortunate fall into an abyss, a long siege cooped up in Barad-Dur with his least favorite cousin Herbert (the one who liked to stick macaroni noodles in his nostrils and make faces --- a constant embarrassment for the whole family), and then having his Ring and Finger (_not_ the best name for a steak house) ignominiously chopped off. What we have here is a classic case of codependence, and with Morgoth gone, Sauron was at an absolute loss. Clearly, Sauron was the victim in all this.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Thenamir ]
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Old 10-09-2002, 10:29 PM   #12
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Sting

**Eve stops snorting and chortling long enough to post**

Gee, Thenamir, I'd LOVE to see your version of a Father Christmas(TM) letter! (Those elven gaming programmers must be working overtime to be able to meet all of those different platform requirements!)
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Old 10-15-2002, 10:52 PM   #13
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Sting

Re the eagles -- one could get suspicious that they were hoping to arrive just _after_ the battle.... wink wink nudge nudge. They only helped out to preserve their PR image.
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Old 10-16-2002, 12:41 PM   #14
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Sting

This brushes on something I have discussed with my friends, why couldn't Gandalf, Elrond and all the other good guys convince the Lord of the Eagles to carry Frodo into Mordor, drop the Ring into the Fire and flew away!

It would have saved a lot of trouble, with the battles and the temptation and the Gollum, my precious...
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Old 10-16-2002, 03:12 PM   #15
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Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Silmaril

Dark-Caranthir, there is a wonderful discussion on that possibility on The Great Eagle Mystery. Enjoy!
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Old 10-16-2002, 04:49 PM   #16
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Silmaril

Ahhh, those silly villians. Their plans never seem to work out.
By the time they finish explaining the plan to their captives they have already fleed and told the plans to their allies in order to defeat the enemy (who is quite red-faced).

...not that that happened in LOTR, but it just seems common for the villian to foil his own plan in some way or another. Perhaps they are blinded from logic by their thirst for power.
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Old 10-16-2002, 04:59 PM   #17
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The Eye

Quote:
they could have carried hobbits as ballistic weapons. A hobbit may be small, but quite devastating at terminal velocity...
Thenamir, that is the most evil thing I've heard all day...not to mention the funniest.

I agree with those who say Sauron was tragically stupid. He had a one-track mind, all he could think about was the Ring, all the time...sad....
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Old 10-16-2002, 08:36 PM   #18
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Sting

Yeah, Diamond18, when Sauron heard the coach say, "Keep your eye on the prize," he must have stopped listening to the rest of the speech. Then again, he did only have one eye...
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Old 10-16-2002, 08:40 PM   #19
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Sting

I wonder how he'd take being called a booger head...
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Old 10-21-2002, 04:04 PM   #20
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Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Sting

You know, I'm going in another direction here, but re: Feanor the manic-depressive -- the Valar put a bad spin on the Noldor's departure. The so-called Kinslaying? Merely giving a few Teleri a restful vacation in the Halls of Mandos (I mean, they came back, didn't they?) Leaving Fingolfin behind? Hey, there weren't enough boats. Wouldn't have been a problem if Fingolfin and Co. (Friday nights, 9:00, on CBS) had 'liberated' a few more Teleri. The Oath of Feanor? Okay, okay, a bad move, but the high-and-mighty Valar should have been more understanding of Feanor's manic-depressive tendencies. He needed counseling, not a Doom on his head. The whole situation would have been solved by a big group hug.

Let's put the blame on who it belongs. Who, at the root of this, is really to blame? What group needed to "clean house" (Ken and Barbie sold separately) and prevent this needless suffering? Why, the Valar of course. Had they taken care of their own (i.e., Morgoth), the elves would have remained a group of happy campers (available at most auto and RV supply shops). Instead of calling him names, leaving him out of all the Valar games, and drawing pictures of him with a big nose (notoriously hard to draw with a nose of any size) they should have nurtured him, channeling his "creative" traits to more useful pursuits. Failing that, they should have booted his keester into the outer darkness (vaporware - don't even look for it) ASAP.

So, I maintain they are guilty. They should have bumped off the Teleri and taken ship to Middle Earth. Think of how much happier the Numenoreans would have been when they landed if the Valar weren't at home.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Thenamir ]
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Old 10-21-2002, 07:59 PM   #21
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Sting

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Very nice. Very moving.

Good point about the Teleri, considering the renewal of the body after leaving the Halls, death for the elves was the equivalent of extensive full-body cosmetic surgery-- and FREE to boot-- wow, what a health-care plan! No waiting to get admitted, just march on Thangoroidrim, and you're there! Extracting a specialist referral from your HMO or getting chopped to bits by a Balrog-- both viable health-care strategies, and about equally painful and troublesome!
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Old 10-29-2002, 04:21 PM   #22
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Sting

It should have been painfully obvious when the Valar made their own little corner of the world a veritable resort (Club Manwe) and threw the rest to Morgoth. Did any of them really care about the rest of the world? (Except, of course, for Tickle Me Ulmo, $29.95 at Ainur-R-Us). And even when they _did_ finally deal with Morgoth (after making the poor downtrodden Eldar and humans come crawling on their knees with a Silmaril) they didn't clean up after themselves. How does one leave several Maia behind? Just miscounted? And look at the sorry lot of 'help' they sent against Sauron. Two of them disappear entirely (something to do with a pyramid scheme and the IRS, I understand), Radagast is completely useless (the Steve-Urkel of Maia), and one turns downright nasty. That's only a 20% success rate, bucko. Not so hot for the "Powers of the World" (Saturday morning on Fox Kids), IMHO.
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Old 11-03-2002, 03:58 PM   #23
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Tolkien

*rolls on the ground laughing to the point where I can't breath* I'm not going to say anything but please keep posting, please! *continues hysterical laughing fit* [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 11-03-2002, 04:09 PM   #24
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Sting

If you ask me, the Valar are very self-centered...er...High and Mighty Beings of Power. By the time they finally drag themselves over to Middle-Earth (and ruin and reshape most of it in the process), the whole continent (or whatever you want to call it) is practically ready to self-destruct.

On another note, not only was Feanor badly in need of a group hug (not mention a big fat "Get over yourself and forget about the Silmarils!" followed by a slap in the face preferably done by his wife who no doubt was going insane by this time) but he had no common sense. Did he ever stop to think of what the consequences (sp?) of killing a whole bunch of the Teleri would be? I might also add, Feanor's more "eccentric" qualities seem to run in the family as I strongly believe that Caranthir was off his rocker too.

And now I have a very small comment to make: The start off Sauron's downfall was when he put all (or at least most) of his power into the Ring. Obviously he overlooked the fact that rings are both easy to loose and it is much easier to cut off someone's finger than someone's head. He would have been much better off if he had poured all his power into a nice necklace or something.
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Old 11-03-2002, 08:28 PM   #25
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Thenamir, are you George Carlin, by any chance?

I always wondered why in god's name an all powerful Valar didn't just skip on over to ME give Sauron what for. And why, in all of Eru's name, did ERU not stop the whole thing? Surely, a parent has to look after his children SOMETIMES? Seriously, was he out at the local Timeless halls bar all day? This is what happens when a great country in america has a 60% divorce rate- you can tell there were problems at home. The whole music fiasco, with Morgoth going through a teenage punk face of some sort that didn't quite fit with the rest of symphony, it didn't go over very well with the voidian neighbors. Do you suppose he sent them all off to get jobs too early in life? Perhaps Manwe could have gone to college before becoming an all mighty god...

[ November 03, 2002: Message edited by: Helkasir ]
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Old 11-03-2002, 11:29 PM   #26
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Ring

No, no, not a necklace! If I was Sauron I would pour all my power into dentures. Think about it, you pop them in your mouth...and how can anyone else force them out? Besides helping you rule the world, they would give you a drop-dead gorgerous smile that was simply to die for (naturally). "Beware of the Jaws of Sauron" has a better Ring to it than "Beware of the Finger of Sauron." (I can't believe I just said that).

And as to Eru, Helkasir...I'm sure he found all of this highly amusing.

(Hey, I didn't start the silliness, I'm merely perpetuating it.)
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Old 11-04-2002, 09:50 AM   #27
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"If you ask me, the Valar are very self-centered...er...High and Mighty Beings of Power. By the time they finally drag themselves over to Middle-Earth (and ruin and reshape most of it in the process), the whole continent (or whatever you want to call it) is practically ready to self-destruct."

The Valar weren't placed in Middle-earth as policemen or parents. If Middle-earth didn't have the power to save itself, what would be the point in saving it? So it could fall to another bad purpose? It was a test of Middle-earth...Was it worth existing? If it could not save itself, surely not. The Valar had nothing to prove, and as this was all Eru's creation, it would undoubtedly work out the way he planned.
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Old 11-04-2002, 11:05 AM   #28
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The Eye

::trying to giggle hysterically and type at the same time::
I really don't have anything to say about all this (except that I don't think Sauron would appriciate being called a booger head) but please everyone continue!! This is way too funny, I love it.
P.S. I actually did have a dream that Sauron had a dragon airforce....Go figure. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 11-04-2002, 03:15 PM   #29
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As a first time poster and with only a moderate knowledge of the Tolkien works, though I hold a deep appreciation for them, let me give my take a couple of points in this thread.

As to whether I feel that the Valar held some measure of responsibility for middle earth…. it depends. Certainly in matters concerning the actions of Sauron, the role should be a more active one, as he is one of the Ainur. Let me highlight an example: If I live on a farm far into rural areas beyond the concern of any police force and I have one neighbor who also lives on a farm that borders my own. If he goes out and perpetrates actions of his own free will and thought that cause his yearly crop to fail (say spreading hydrofluoric acid over his field for reasons that no one else could comprehend), it is not my responsibility to care about his predicament or assist him in any way. If I want to, it is only something that I do freely out of my good nature. However, if his crops are failing because one of my teenage sons is sneaking onto his property and spreading the acid, then I suddenly have a responsibility connection to the failure of his crops. Since I am too far out to have a law enforcement intervention, I have two choices –

1. Intervene and use my power to prevent my family member from destroying the property of others knowing full well that I can stop him.
2. Say – “Well I don’t live there and I don’t like to hassle with that hell raiser, so take care of the situation yourself and here are 5 dogs who while not assisting you, could bark if they see anyone on your land.” (or they could turn on you and help my son, run off, or forget their mission)

I don’t think that the Valar should take an active role in ME. Men, Dwarves, Hobbits, etc. are responsible for the all of the terrible things they have wrought. But if a member of the Ainur is causing the sorrows, then I think the Valar have a personal stake in the matter and should get more actively involved. Remove all of the influence of the Ainur from ME and let the fates of the remaining races play out as they will. This example does not cover all the small points of the Sauron situation, but at least details where I am coming from.

Maybe Sauron’s problem was that he bound his power into something so obvious on his personage. Rings, and circles in general, have powerful mythological meanings but he did have other jewelry options. Lord of the Bracelets, Lord of the Anklets, Lord of the Broaches, but if he really wanted to hide his powerful object it would have been Lord of the Tongue Barbells. Yep, with his head to toe jet black appearance a glowing gold ring would be about as unnoticeable as a balrog at the long expected party. Sauron’s appearance was hideous enough, even if you took him down, would you want to act as a dentist to retrieve it? Oh well just a couple of my rambling thoughts.
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Old 11-04-2002, 08:16 PM   #30
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Good points, some I did not think of before. But I am not going to say that the Valar should not have done some intervention other then sending some Istari over (and I am unsure about whether they did that or not). Sauron was one of them, not Vala, but darn close. Not to mention that he was something of an heir of Morgoth, who, if you ask me, the Valar had a personal problem with.

Tongue barbells... now that's an idea for powerful evil jewelry!
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Old 11-04-2002, 08:39 PM   #31
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The Eldar were used by the Valar to get their precious bauble back, and the Valar did nothing. I mean they had the whole world in their hands (new single by Eru and the Val-Tones soon to be released) then just left it alone? Aren't they liable under the lemon laws or something? The Eldar were just their hapless victims! A class action suit against all Valar and associates (attorneys at law) is brewing. I think the plaintiffs are asking for another Age, since the first three were essentially hosed. If the Valar fail to pay up, then the Eldar get Valinor, plus they can garnish the Valar's wages for the next 10 eons. The Valar must remove to Middle Earth - a fitting revenge. Perhaps they can find any other missing "items" (Maia, balrogs, banes, tokens of doom, demi-gods - and they have to keep Bombadil - ha ha ha). If this happens, I'd expect the Eldar to scour Valinor pretty well to make sure no "little accidents" (from the Littlest Pet Shop collection) are left behind.

Amidst all this, it's just too easy to overlook the other nameless, faceless victims. Consider the poor balrog, having to live in a cave for millenia. Then this Motley Crowd (in Concert at the Colisseum) arrogantly trespasses through as if they own the place. When he goes to politely inquire as to their intentions, they ambush him on the bridge and toss him down the abyss (playing at theaters near you!)! I mean, _anybody_ would have been peeved at this manhandling, so it's understandable that the balrog was a bit hot. Sadly, the interlopers prevailed and ruthlessly rubbed him out, the last of his kind (sniff). Spock would have found a way to communicate with him, to _understand_ his angst, to get in touch with his inner child, that happy-go-lucky little balrogling, just learning to play with matches... just sort of chokes you up, doesn't it? We won't even mention how Shelob was abused....
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Old 11-04-2002, 09:47 PM   #32
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Hey, if anybody can claim "victim's rights" here, it's Gollum. Think about it: Poor, hapless sap who stumbles upon the Ultimate Fashion Accessory, which causes him 500+ years of Pain and Suffering (and other punitive damages). It even began to work its magic on him from the very beginning: Deagol was not murdered by Smeagol, my friends. It was the Evil Sparkly which forced Smeagol to separate his best friend from his existence. And all Gollum ever wanted out of life was clean air, fresh fish, and maybe a small compound in the Hampdens.

And where were the Valar then, when Gollum needed them, hmmm? Where was Gollum's Teleri ship to take him into the West? Wasn't he a Ringbearer, too? Why didn't any Great Eagles swoop down to save him from the fiery depths of Orodruin, HMMMM?

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Evenstar1 ]

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Evenstar1 ]
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Old 11-04-2002, 10:00 PM   #33
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balrogling?

what about the trolls in the hobbit? Bill&company. They need a bit of "compensation" too. Sure, there were signs saying that cookouts were prohibited,(Albeit a mile between each) but I doubt the sentence was to be turned to stone. Come on, it was harmless, if dwarf devouring, bortherly picnic, and they were having a typical sibling conversation; how to shishkabob an animal with too much hair. All this led them to be robbed by a hobbit less than 1/100 their size, only to be ambushed and made into nice marble sculptures by an agent of the vala no less!
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Old 11-05-2002, 12:10 AM   #34
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How about Middle Earth's biggest dupe - Frodo? Oh, sure, Gollum was abused, hung out, and left to dry; but he was a born fall-guy and a goober, anyway. But Frodo was grossly misled by the "wise" and "benevolent" entities present at the Council of Elrond (released straight to video). Someone says "send it to the Crack of Doom (patent pending)" and then they all stand around whistling and looking at their fingernails - I mean, here you have Elf-lords, and the Heir of Isildur (scalped, I imagine), and for goodness sake, a full blown, certified, card carrying Wizard! And who do they send? A halfpint, scrawny, and conveniently expendable hobbit! You can see it as a "win - win" for Gandalf and the elves - "oops, we goofed; guess we're wearied with Middle Earth now. Time to hoof it to the Havens and depart this sad land".

Then they hold up a winged hat and a stick, and - get this - a BROKEN sword to Aragorn, the "best and smartest" of all men, and he's gung ho to go! Hey, if the runt comes through he's king of it all - if the hobbit gets toasted and Sauron comes up tops, he can still (a) become a lieutenant (the promotion potential is quite good), or (b) take that ol' "doom of men" quaintly described as a "gift".

The dwarfs you say? They can profit either way, and can easily "dig in". Besides, they've no where else to go - no "elvenhome", no "gift", just dust in the wind (copyrighted). So launch a hobbit or two - who'll miss 'em? What the hey? Maybe it'll all work out okay - and if the bugger-hobbit claims the Thing, then he's easily booted around. Fiddle, even Sauron was "on their side" in that event, so to speak. All the hosts of Mordor, and such.

And lo! Frodo survives! How ... nice. How do we "reward" this hero of all free peoples? Why, we put him on a boat with the other, somewhat chagrined and embarrassed priciples and he's "never seen in this world again. No doubt! Wonder when they let him off in the concrete cloak? Imagine the tale of their brilliant exploits that they told when they got to Valinor, without a certain midget. Hopefully Frodo slept with Sting under his pillow on that voyage!
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Old 11-06-2002, 03:18 PM   #35
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and hopefully he's not a total idiot. What if he checks sting every once in a while to see if evil's afoot... and BAM! he gets hit in the back!
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Old 11-07-2002, 05:31 PM   #36
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The first rule -- kill all the witnesses.

However, (he said while dusting off his copy of the Tale of Elder Days [five weeks on the New York Times best-seller list]) note what the Numenoreans are told by the Valar -- if they came to Valinor, they would only "weary and burn out quicker" (nice euphemism, that). How very kind of them to let Frodo and Bilbo partake of such "healing". Frodo was a goner as soon as he set foot on that boat, and the ungifted, er, un_dying_ didn't even have to lay a lily-white hand on him.

Much more for poor old decrepit Bilbo -- and buddy, did they pull a number on _him_.... Beating the old Took? Phshaaw -- he had a ring that would've kept him going indefinitely! But Gandalf saw early on that Frodo was the right dupe for the job, and talked Bilbo into trading eternal youth for some magic beans.

Of course, Gandalf's true character comes to the surface when it comes time to deal with Saruman, one of his own kind. In true Ainur fashion, he sits on his Maia rump and lets the hobbits fend for themselves. Sort of a microcosm of the entire First Age (suitable for framing). Scratch that earlier "20%" -- looks like a clean sweep insofar as the wizards are concerned. I notice _he_ didn't waste any time before snarfing up one of the elvish rings at his arrival.

Of course, then there were the representatives of the Eldar (motto: "it's not our problem") -- Elrond and Galadriel, being ever-so-helpful to usher Frodo along on his trip. And what sort of help do they give? Elrond gives him "advice" (the sort that sends you alone into the heart of the Enemy's realm carrying a veritable homing beacon around your neck) and Galadriel gives him some Honey Grahams ($1.29 on sale at Kroger's). Sort of casts a whole new light on the happy-go-lucky "Fa la la lally down here in the valley, fa la!" elves, doesn't it?

And sending Aragorn along.... seems to me that Elrond was trying to tie up some loose ends and rid himself of an unpleasant suitor for his daughter. Didn't work for Thingol and didn't work for Elrond either. The goober. Notice how the "gift" to men is so wonderful that the eldar are ever so enthusiastic to let their daughters partake of it.... Or (as is more likely) they're just snobs.
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Old 11-07-2002, 06:40 PM   #37
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This I agree with, not only was Gandalf being lazy in his control of the other istari, he also spent his long immortal days in middle earth trying to corrupt poor innocent halflings. He did this by inviting himself and a couple of his dwarf friends over to the house of a hobbit content in his existence, and by a couple of stories in between being waited on by this hobbit manage to convince him to become a criminal and take up with a band of thugs in order to steal the hard earned treasure of a dragon, who was asleep at the time. This dragon after waking up to find himself being robbed by this hobbit who is invisible after stealing a magic ring from some other guy after cheating in a riddle game, (what kind of riddle is What's in my pocket? anyway) goes to the local town to investigate as to why they helped these theives, and gets himself shot in the process. Gandalf, then not content with his corruption of one hobbit, comes back many years later to corrupt another four, two of these are responsible for destroying the personal property of one of his fellow maia. He then installs a puppet regime in Gondor and decides to flee for the paradise of valinor after running out of ways to hurt the free people of middle earth.
Gandalf is a war criminal and should be extradited from Aman so that he can face the charges that surely face him in middle earth. I want to start a campaign to get the arch criminal of middle earth into a court room so that his can face these charges.
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Old 11-07-2002, 06:46 PM   #38
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Quote:
Sort of casts a whole new light on the happy-go-lucky "Fa la la lally down here in the valley, fa la!" elves, doesn't it?
It is rather obvious to even the most casual viewer of psychology that the Elves are all severe manic depressives. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 11-07-2002, 07:51 PM   #39
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Elrond should have realized that if trying to get rid of an unwelcome suitor for his daughter by sending him on a highly dangerous mission with 0.00001% chance of success didn't work for Thingol, it probably wasn't going to work for him either. Not only did Aragorn come back alive and well, but he was king! I can only imagine how utterly sad Elrond was to see that his infinite wisdom wasn't quite so infinite.
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Old 11-07-2002, 10:22 PM   #40
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Elrond should have realized that if trying to get rid of an unwelcome suitor for his daughter by sending him on a highly dangerous mission with 0.00001% chance of success didn't work for Thingol, it probably wasn't going to work for him either.
Yeah, but Aragorn actually did not go to Mordor, he actually took a much safer route. Notice how Aragorn weaseled out of the original plan. It was very "convenient" that Frodo and Sam left before Aragorn got to the shore, and that Pippin and Merry had been "kidnapped." He certainly did not waste much time in deciding to "rescue" Pippin and Merry rather than go after Frodo and Sam. The whole thing seems fishy.

(This thread has gotten silly.)
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