The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-13-2002, 10:27 PM   #1
GANDALF@
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Shield how do the wise become wise

here is a question to occupie your little mind, how do the wise become wise??? are they born with the intllegence of elders or do they take years of studies to learn all, if so where do they study. where is this vast palace of endless knowledge???
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2002, 10:52 AM   #2
zifnab
Shade of Carn Dm
 
zifnab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: omni-presence
Posts: 331
zifnab has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Well, I always thought that their was a difference in "wisdom", and "intelligence". I think wisdom does not come from a book but from real-life.
__________________
Facebook.
zifnab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2002, 12:51 PM   #3
Gayahithwen
Wight
 
Gayahithwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The chat-room.
Posts: 243
Gayahithwen has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Gayahithwen Send a message via MSN to Gayahithwen Send a message via Yahoo to Gayahithwen
Sting

I totally agree with zifnab.. You can't be born "wise" you have to learn through time..
__________________
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.
Gayahithwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2002, 05:18 PM   #4
Elendil
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 57
Elendil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I agree Zifnab, I know some people who can't learn in school but who are wise.
Elendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2002, 06:22 PM   #5
GANDALF@
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Shield

I agree, but to learn all the knowledge through a course of a life is almost impossible, you must live numerus life times to learn the such great masses of knowledge. How can you do this with such little time. Unless you a immortal I do'nt see how it is possible.
null
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2002, 06:28 PM   #6
Elendil
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 57
Elendil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Not by being immortal, but by reincarnation.
Elendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2002, 06:26 AM   #7
Pippin
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: I don't know, I'm lost!
Posts: 85
Pippin has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

do you ask a fish hw it swims?
or a bird how it flies?

nope, natural talent, improved with age and experience
__________________
never mind the pint....
does it come in gallons???
Pippin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2002, 12:02 PM   #8
Fenrir
Wight
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Nevrast
Posts: 103
Fenrir has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Even immortality and high natural intelligence doesn't make some people wise. Look at the Lord of the Nazgul. Brilliant strategist, just didn't have the sense to drop his mace and run when he met Eowyn.
__________________
Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.
Fenrir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2002, 12:48 PM   #9
Hama
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Olde London Towne
Posts: 23
Hama has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Well, The Wise, in the context of LOTR are all immortal. So they've had plenty of tuime to accumulate the knowledge and skills to make themselves wise: being superbeings, eg Wizards and Elves also helps, them being probably rather cleverer than the average Human. Not having to worry about imminent death through old age also perhaps helps: can take the long view and study things in more depth.

I think that in general, wisdom/cleverness/intelligence all revolve around being able to make connections in your mind between the different things you have learnt or seen
__________________
Fly you fools
Hama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2002, 02:29 AM   #10
Eowyn of Ithilien
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 277
Eowyn of Ithilien has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

"I'd like my children to consider me as wise, my friends to see me as intelligent and my enemies to think I'm clever"
*shamelessly transcribed what a friend once said*
__________________
But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.
Eowyn of Ithilien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2002, 11:27 AM   #11
zifnab
Shade of Carn Dm
 
zifnab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: omni-presence
Posts: 331
zifnab has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

I like that Eowyn of Ithilien!



[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
Facebook.
zifnab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2002, 05:04 PM   #12
Elrian
Eldar Spirit of Truth
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE
Posts: 794
Elrian has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

They had books and scrolls full of lore, both Men and Elves. The Red Book of Westmarch that was written by Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam could be called Hobbit lore.
__________________
*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will.
Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill.
That old whine ain't got no soul.
I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~*
Elrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2002, 07:09 PM   #13
Fissh, nice fissh
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Ring

Wisdom is gained only through experience and reflection upon that experience. The ability to see the big picture as well as patience are what make a person wise. I guess the elves and wizards are wise because they have had time to see many things and how they change over time. They understand why things are the way they are because they saw how they started way back when. They've seen how things happened in the past so they can more easily see where things are leading in the present.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2002, 09:54 PM   #14
GANDALF@
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Shield

Ok I see, I just was wondering how all that all happened. well I thank you all for your own additions to this colum this has really helped me on my question. I was totaly lost on this subject...
Thank you once again..
Gandalf [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2002, 03:59 PM   #15
Din Ironfoot
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 33
Din Ironfoot has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Yes, i believe that it takes years to become wise, but sometimes in the books, younger falks are wiser than the older. Look at Hurin at the Battle of unnumbered tears. The elves wanted to attack, but he cautioned them to wait, but they did not, and look what happened. Also, Faramir seems to me to be more wise than Denethor.......less lore, more wisdom. THe whole wisdom thing depends.
__________________
"Understanding your people paves the road to understanding leadership"- Old Atreides maxim
Din Ironfoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2002, 04:04 PM   #16
Ploi
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Boots

Well someone once said to me that the truely wise people know that they aren't the wisest. So i guess we all are pretty darn wise in a sense. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2002, 05:55 PM   #17
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,850
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I think wisdom isn't necessarily from experience only. Wisdom is when you observe and can make connections without someone laying it out for you, whether you're directly involved or not.
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2002, 06:25 PM   #18
sk8er74t
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

I think that you people left out one VERY important point. Some Elves had been alive for over 3000 years, ie. Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, etc... Do you not think that they had seen battle? They had only fought orks for thousands of years, and if they survived, they must have been able to predict what the orks were going to do... Wise could just be something that you had experienced in the past... Thought that I should bring that up.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 12:21 AM   #19
River Jordan
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada
Posts: 27
River Jordan has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Just thought I'd add a quick comment to this discussion, as I'm skipping merrily through the Barrow-Downs! In my mind, I see wisdom and intelligence as being two different things. To me, intelligence is the "smarts" that you are born with, which refers to the ability to thinking logically, mathematically, etc. Wisdom, on the other hand, refers more to that which is gained by experience, and ones ability to relate and respond to the world around him or her. You can be really intelligent, and "on paper" know how to do math equations, etc, but not be really wise when it comes to the affairs of life. Likewise, one may not have "school-smarts", but may be a very wise person. So in a sense, there is a greater opportunity for older people having more wisdom, having had more experiences, and yet, there are many young people who have much wisdom as well. How does one become wise? A final thought from the Old Testament Scriptures of the Bible - "He who walks with the wise will become wise." If you hang around wise people, you will grow in wisdom as well!

Your friendly neighbourhood elf, *River*

"You have proved mightiest, and all your labours have gone well" Treebeard to Gandalf
__________________
Your friendly neighbourhood elf,
Lostlaithion *River Jordan*

"Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." Frodo Baggins

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/YMF
River Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 11:20 AM   #20
Carannillion
Wight
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Mici Firya
Posts: 135
Carannillion has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Well then I guess this is a nice place to hang around, don't you? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And also, the question 'What is intelligence?' has been a matter of debate the recent years. Mensa, the international 'club for the intelligent' has had to make new guidelines and new tests for determining whether or not a person is to be considered to be intelligent. IQ does no longer apply.
__________________
A cry for the people, but there's noone there to hear...
Carannillion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2002, 11:27 AM   #21
Hama
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Olde London Towne
Posts: 23
Hama has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

IQ tests are pretty much tests of how well you can do IQ tests... I guess that is the problem with any test-based measure of intelligence: technique comes into it.

Maybe the only way we can define who is intelligent/wise etc is to observe them in action over a period of time, building up a picture
__________________
Fly you fools
Hama is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:50 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.