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Old 06-18-2020, 10:33 AM   #5161
Rikae
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Patented Rikae double post ...

So here's what I'm tentatively thinking of right now.

- 3 wolves, unless it's a huge village. Perhaps NW role comes into play when two(three) wolves are dead? NW not being a specific wolf, but a collective ability of the dead pack.

- cobbler, only ever revealed as ordo, whether dead or dreamed

- seer (straightforward normal seer)

- ranger (straightforward normal ranger)

- weaver. This was a role in the first game I ever played. It's a bit like a seer, but instead of seeing one players role, they see whether two players have the same alignment (so, for the weaver, cobbler & wolf would come out as "same alignment"). I'm thinking of having this be another role that only becomes active on death, and looks like an ordo to the seer and in their death narration.

- hunter (undecided about logical vs illogical)

So there will be 3 possible unknown roles among the dead.

-------------------------------------------------
Rules

-The dead may talk day and Night

-during the Night, the dead may elect a ghost. They get 3 chances to do this, and cannot choose the same ghost twice. I'm thinking of doing it this way to force the dead to think about these choices rather than sending back the last night-kill every day. To make the choice whether to send a ghost at all democratic, those who want not to could vote ++no ghost.

- the ghost returns to the game thread the next Day. They cannot communicate with the dead while haunting. They may only make 3 posts, which can only be sentences from Tolkien, but they may make these posts at any point during the day, allowing them to respond to new developments (I'm going for maximum frustration for living, dead, and ghost here, because it amuses me ).
If the first chapter thing is just to avoid pointing to signatures, I think it might be okay to open it up to all quotes, given the last rule on this list. After all, people have always had the ability to hint by alluding to signatures, but they rarely do.

- the dead may also cast a collective vote during the Day (???)
This would also mean the ghost did not get to participate in voting while they were haunting. I kind of like this, since I'd like sending a ghost to be a costly choice the dead will only make if they feel like they have something important to convey, but alternatively, I could let them privately cast a vote to be counted in the dead's election that day, or let them vote on the living thread.

- strict ban on the living giving instructions to the ghost or the dead (aside from the general "Boro is a wolf, vote for him!" type thing directed at everyone). Violators will be yeeted into the void.
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Old 06-18-2020, 01:05 PM   #5162
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Yes to not revealing the cobbler if they die.

I think I always err on the side of trying not to restrict content in posts, because I like having as many options on the table as possible. However, I think in this case with the Ghost role, where every day 1 person comes back to the living to pass off cryptic information, Rikae's suggestion makes sense. I think it would be important in having the Ghost role be one where the living players are forbidden to direct the returning Ghost a plan to relay the information.
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Old 06-18-2020, 01:08 PM   #5163
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I think these rules sound like a fun game, Rikae! I really like the idea of not letting the Living try to dictate to the Dead - I think trying to figure out what the Dead meant after they do something is way more fun than trying to dictate to them ahead of time for both the Living and the Dead anyway. I love the idea of the cobbler not being revealed.
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Old 06-18-2020, 01:09 PM   #5164
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Love all this, Rikae! And after thinking about it, the three posts may be very well enough for the Ghost - some people post only as many (not counting maybe some one-liner vote post) even when alive!

Just for clarification, I assume the Ghost can't quote (as in, quote: <somebody's post> /end quote). That would be unfair and would allow them to skirt around the ambiguity (as in, they could quote the post of someone they want to accuse and add to it their own quote about how Wargs attacked the Fellowship, or something.

And the NW would be the first Wolf dead? Or how would it work? I assume that's the third "unknown role" you are referring to? (Aside from the weaver and cobbler.)
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Old 06-18-2020, 02:19 PM   #5165
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Just for clarification, I assume the Ghost can't quote (as in, quote: <somebody's post> /end quote). That would be unfair and would allow them to skirt around the ambiguity (as in, they could quote the post of someone they want to accuse and add to it their own quote about how Wargs attacked the Fellowship, or something.
Yeah, I'm thinking they can only post their Tolkien sentences (and a vote, if they get to vote).

Quote:
And the NW would be the first Wolf dead? Or how would it work? I assume that's the third "unknown role" you are referring to? (Aside from the weaver and cobbler.)
Once total wolves-minus-1 are dead, they can send in a NW pick each night as a group the way they'd normally send a kill, of a living player to block.

Last edited by Rikae; 06-18-2020 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 06-25-2020, 03:56 PM   #5166
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And the fire died out?..

Just wanna say that 1) I like Rikae's idea about the Weaver, that would give the DT actual information to convey to the LT and therefore a purpose for the Ghost, and 2) If we want a true Twitter game, I will even get Twitter for this purpose.
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Old 06-25-2020, 05:18 PM   #5167
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Just wanna say that 1) I like Rikae's idea about the Weaver, that would give the DT actual information to convey to the LT and therefore a purpose for the Ghost, and 2) If we want a true Twitter game, I will even get Twitter for this purpose.
My Twitter name is video game related so that no one IRL can find me, but I will totally change it to my Downs name if we play.

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And the fire died out?
I've been coming back every day to see what's happening. I just figured that as time got close Rikae would put up a planning thread.
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Old 06-25-2020, 06:21 PM   #5168
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I just figured that as time got close Rikae would put up a planning thread.
Yeah, several people mentioned wanting a break before the next game so I figured I'd give it some time.
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Old 07-19-2020, 05:17 PM   #5169
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Discussion thread is up!
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Old 04-12-2021, 02:04 PM   #5170
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Okay, there's a little "we're still interested" action on Rikae's CXVI thread, but no sign of Rikae, so I'll post here. What's the state of things? I have motivation and a window of opportunity and I'm not afraid to use either.

From the end of that thread, here's a player-list of those expressing interest (very, very tentative):

Formendacil
Boro
Loslote
Sally
BG
Hui
Soriman


That's 7--or 6 and a mod. Bit tight but not QUITE impossible.

From the Facebook "who's interested still?" post I made a month ago, everyone who either "liked" it or commented--question marks heaving stress:

Legate?
Kath?
Greenie?
Pitch?
Lommie?
Eomer?


Throw five more in and that's eleven: doable.

(BTW, here's a much older potential player list from Rikae's CXVI thread:

Loslote
Legate
Boromir88
Blind Guardian
Lalaith
Pitchwife
Sally
Nogrod (?)
Thinlómien
Kath
Huinesoron
A Little Green
)

I'm sure if I really dig back, there's a prospective Mod-list somewhere, and I certainly think Rikae should mod if she wants to--but I think it's a better idea to get a game off the ground NOW if people are ready.

So if someone (me, as a placeholder) were to Mod a game starting, say: Monday, April 19th, 2021, who wants in?
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Old 04-12-2021, 02:27 PM   #5171
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I guess I'll say "in" for the 19th April unless you get lots of people who really want to.

If it were you modding , would you be using Rikae’s setup, another you have planned, or just a standard template (I'm assuming not a long discussion over what it should be)? In any event I'd like to request that we have a Dead Thread even if it's just observing and doesn't interact with the Game Thread at all - it's fun to bicker along and then discover we were totally wrong about everything even while dead!

(I think this point was generally agreed on, so I don't think it's controversial?)

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Old 04-12-2021, 02:51 PM   #5172
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I guess I'll say "in" for the 19th April unless you get lots of people who really want to.

If it were you modding , would you be using Rikae’s setup, another you have planned, or just a standard template (I'm assuming not a long discussion over what it should be)? In any event I'd like to request that we have a Dead Thread even if it's just observing and doesn't interact with the Game Thread at all - it's fun to bicker along and then discover we were totally wrong about everything even while dead!

(I think this point was generally agreed on, so I don't think it's controversial?)

hS
I think Dead Threads should be mandatory. :-p This is the Barrow-downs, after all.

I'd like to give "the Ghost" a try in some form, but I am:

A. Thinking of myself as a placeholder name and therefore not too hard about it.

B. It'll depend on the numbers. Though... if it is a SMALL game, (say less than 12ish), it might make for a good test run. I'd say I envision something like:

Six Players
1 Wolf
1 Gifted (ranger? hunter?)
4 Ordos

Ten Players
2 Wolves
1 Cobbler
1 Seer
1 Ghost

Sixteen Players
3 Wolves
1 Cobbler
1 Seer
1 Ranger
1 Hunter
1 Ghost

Honestly, the breakdown per tier is very much spur-of-the-moment. I am, besides not being wedded to modding, very open for suggestion/negotiation there, but I think it illustrates the different tiers of size and how that might impact the roles. I think a Ghost should be possible even in a smaller game, but it WOULD make that game very much a test of that role.
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Old 04-12-2021, 03:27 PM   #5173
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I will not even tempt myself into playing. In the next two months I have a Very Big Exam, then time with family where they deserve my full attention, then the start of a new job. Neither time is good for playing in a WW game. However, I will of course read and goof around and make cobbler apparitions. Also, I am very happy to co-mod, or perhaps even mod, depending on the size. I find that modding is a bit like being the apparition, but also being omnipotent, and therefore not very stressful or taxing. I kinda feel bad though, because I feel that I've modded disproportionately too many times for recent games, having dropped out of many. But if, and only if, no one else wants to mod and Form wants to play, I can take over whatever set up is agreed upon and run with it. If it's done before I go see family, you may even get on-time deadline posts.
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Old 04-13-2021, 01:51 AM   #5174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Form
So if someone (me, as a placeholder) were to Mod a game starting, say: Monday, April 19th, 2021, who wants in?
Thanks for getting the ball rolling, Form! Count me in please
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Old 04-13-2021, 02:30 PM   #5175
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As long as we start before June, I'm in! Very excited to get in one more game before the start of the summer.
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Old 04-14-2021, 01:11 AM   #5176
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Looks like with the spring in the air, everything is awakening, including the tombs... Simbelmynë. No, wait...

Anyways, a small game would surely not hurt me. Right? Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
However, I will of course read and goof around and make cobbler apparitions.
I think we have learned to expect that. A game without Cobbler55 would be somehow, hum hmm, lacking.

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Also, I am very happy to co-mod, or perhaps even mod, depending on the size. I find that modding is a bit like being the apparition, but also being omnipotent, and therefore not very stressful or taxing. I kinda feel bad though, because I feel that I've modded disproportionately too many times for recent games, having dropped out of many. But if, and only if, no one else wants to mod and Form wants to play, I can take over whatever set up is agreed upon and run with it. If it's done before I go see family, you may even get on-time deadline posts.
"Modded disproportionately too many times for recent games" - the recent games being several years ago, I don't think that's an issue. I think we have reached the stage that whoever wants to mod should mod. Sure, people who modded less recently should get priority if they desire to mod, but there does not seem to be exactly a queue. At least not yet?
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Old 04-14-2021, 02:35 AM   #5177
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"Modded disproportionately too many times for recent games" - the recent games being several years ago, I don't think that's an issue.
- "Thou didst moderate but ten games past; repent of thine desire for power and dominion!"

- "But that was in 2004."

- "Thy numbers foul have no hold over me, dwimmerlaik!"



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Old 04-14-2021, 05:27 PM   #5178
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I have motivation and a window of opportunity and I'm not afraid to use either.
I cannot play. I wish I could, but neither my personal nor professional life right now will admit to such a possibility.

But I, as usual, cannot rep Form because I've done it too recently (probably last year sometime) and I just had to publically tell him what an uncontrollable fit of laughter I had when I read the above.

I picture him saying this with quite a deranged look on his face, staring down a hostage negotiator.
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Old 04-14-2021, 06:03 PM   #5179
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I cannot play. I wish I could, but neither my personal nor professional life right now will admit to such a possibility.

But I, as usual, cannot rep Form because I've done it too recently (probably last year sometime) and I just had to publically tell him what an uncontrollable fit of laughter I had when I read the above.

I picture him saying this with quite a deranged look on his face, staring down a hostage negotiator.
You should never underestimate a deranged man with control of an open window!

We do seem to be few. If we press a reluctant Galadriel to mod for us, we have a confirmed ready-to-play list of:

Formendacil
Huinesoron
Greenie
Loslote
Legate


and... I think?

Soriman
Blind Guardian
Sally


Eight would be manageable in a "1 Gifted, 1 or 2 Wolves" kind of way and I incline to say "let's do it!" but it is only Wednesday and perhaps we shall lure a few more.
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Old 04-14-2021, 06:45 PM   #5180
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We do seem to be few. If we press a reluctant Galadriel to mod for us, we have a confirmed ready-to-play list of:
I fear I would not have to be pressed hard. How about I do Deputy Mod until someone shows up to claim their rightful place, and if no one does before the start of the game I'll go on modding.

And as such, I think we need to get consensus on a few points before Monday hits us.

The first is roles and numbers. Formy, I think you are missing Boro from your list, he posted in Rikae's thread. Maybe let's confirm that - Boro, BG, and Soriman - you've all posted on the other thread, could you confirm you still want to play? I trust sally will be there, though I would not yet put bets on her being there quite on D1.

With only 9 people, I think 2 baddies is tops. Following "worst case scenario" numbers, 2/9 baddies brings endgame on D3, whereas 3 of them bring it on D2, and that's just too soon. One or two gifteds? If there is only one Gifted, which one? I vote against Hunter, that one just brings the numbers down too much in a single strike for such a small game. Ranger or Seer?

Then, what happens to the dead. A Dead Thread is a must. ^.^ But should they have a role in the game. Are they allowed a vote on the living thread? Do they send a Ghost to haunt the living? And what is their objective in doing so, phrased in such a way that being a dead wolf wouldn't be terrible existence?

Since the games of last summer, I've been mulling over ways to unite the DT in a common cause which lets everyone actively participate on equal footing. What I came up with is this: the Dead hold a grudge at being killed, and take petty revenge by seeking to make as many people as possible join their ranks - ie their goal is to get the Living Thread to reach endgame. That way, its support is always given to the "losing" side, whichever that may be, regardless of the Dead's former roles. However, I'm not sure how that would integrate with the Ghost in practice - what is the Ghost in practice? - and I think the Ghost should see a test run here.

...So, basically, any thoughts on what are the actual rules of the game? Thoughts on the Ghost and DT responsibilities.


And a few minor things that also must be sorted before the start:
Deadline preference? I live in GMT-4. Though in the next 2-3 weeks my schedule is flexible, please be kind and don't ask for 4am local time.
Preference on tied votes? Many people hate the first-to-reach-tie, some hate the last-to-reach-tie, opinions differ on both or none options. Given that this is a small game, would it make more sense to have neither party lynched? Certainly not both. What do you guys think?


That was a much longer post than I intended. But really, I think it's good to figure out what game we're playing before the start date.
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Old 04-15-2021, 01:52 AM   #5181
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Posting to confirm my interest.
As you all know I'm new here, I've not played a game like this before either however I'll be happy to learn to try get the numbers up.
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Old 04-15-2021, 02:24 AM   #5182
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Preference on tied votes? Many people hate the first-to-reach-tie, some hate the last-to-reach-tie, opinions differ on both or none options. Given that this is a small game, would it make more sense to have neither party lynched? Certainly not both. What do you guys think?
How about 'the Dead Thread breaks ties'? You could make a rule that Dead players cast their own votes, but only for people who already have at least one vote in the game thread. If there's a tie, whichever tied player had the most Dead votes dies. If there's a double tie (including a 'neither player got any votes from the Dead'), nobody is lynched.

Which could even just be a general "the Dead get one collective vote" rule, with the proviso that they can only vote for someone who's already had a vote in the game thread. (Purely because I feel like ties aren't all that common, so it would be a bit weak for the Dead.)

For the Ghost, I still like Rikae's version (with or without a number-of-posts limit); it's the one that's been most optimised, so to speak. But basically anything that lets the Dead try and affect the Living without being able to do so indiscriminately.

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Old 04-15-2021, 03:04 AM   #5183
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I also am fine with for example Rikae's version of the ghost, I think it is rather simple way of going about it, and a fun one. Besides, if we "test" this now, we can make any sorts of "fancy" adjustments to it that we like in the future.

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Which could even just be a general "the Dead get one collective vote" rule, with the proviso that they can only vote for someone who's already had a vote in the game thread.
That is only a problem because, well, what if half the people vote only around deadline, then many of the Dead may not be able to vote.

Also, it does not eliminate the problem of a tie on Day 1, when there are not yet any Dead to vote in the first place.

I am more of a supporter of the first-to-reach-the-maximum-is-lynched, simply because it forces people to vote earlier, rather than to hold their votes until 23:59:59. But anything goes, we've had games with all possible rules.
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Old 04-15-2021, 07:09 AM   #5184
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My question regarding the Ghost of Rikae's set up is that she also had a special role that was active in Death; her Ghost has information to convey. In this smaller and simpler game, what information can the Ghost offer that the living would want? Is he just conveying the general opinion of the Dead, which might be helpful insight but ultimately is still opinion and not fact?

Ooo, thought. What if the Dead during the Day can vote to find out the identity of one living player? That way, they function as a collective Seer, and the Ghost would travel back to convey that info? There may also be limitations on how many times they are allowed to hunt (eg only 2, or only 3, or not in two consecutive Days), to make people budget that power?

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Posting to confirm my interest.
As you all know I'm new here, I've not played a game like this before either however I'll be happy to learn to try get the numbers up.
We're always happy to have new people join, and we were all the new person at one point or other. Welcome to the game! You can read up about the general rules, and let us know if you have questions. If you've ever played Mafia / Werewolf in real life, this is much like it.
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Old 04-15-2021, 07:26 AM   #5185
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My question regarding the Ghost of Rikae's set up is that she also had a special role that was active in Death; her Ghost has information to convey. In this smaller and simpler game, what information can the Ghost offer that the living would want? Is he just conveying the general opinion of the Dead, which might be helpful insight but ultimately is still opinion and not fact?
I seem to recall that one of the last two games, the living basically ignored the Dead entirely. You'd have to weight things relatively heavily to counter that tendency, which... I mean, you're not supposed to want to be killed, so making it so the Dead have loads more information kind of works against that.

But... what if you reveal something about the previous Day's voting each night? One night it could be 'no wolves received votes', the next 'both wolves voted together', the third 'at least one wolf voted early', the fourth 'the Gifted has voted for
a wolf twice so far'. Something like that - the sort of thing people speculate about all through the Day. The Dead would have to decide overNight whether it's a big enough clue to send in the Ghost, and how to convey what random piece of information had been revealed through their communication limits (Tolkien block-quotes with no-one trying to instruct the Ghost, I think Rikae's version was).

Quote:
What if the Dead during the Day can vote to find out the identity of one living player? That way, they function as a collective Seer, and the Ghost would travel back to convey that info? There may also be limitations on how many times they are allowed to hunt (eg only 2, or only 3, or not in two consecutive Days), to make people budget that power?
It's an interesting idea... it might be fun to combine the budgets, actually: you have three ghosts, but can choose whether each one is a Night Ghost (acts as Seer for the dead) or Day Ghost (visits the Living). With the possibilities of information from dead Gifted and Wolves, it's not quite as obvious as going 'night-night-day' right at the start.

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Old 04-15-2021, 07:57 AM   #5186
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It's an interesting idea... it might be fun to combine the budgets, actually: you have three ghosts, but can choose whether each one is a Night Ghost (acts as Seer for the dead) or Day Ghost (visits the Living). With the possibilities of information from dead Gifted and Wolves, it's not quite as obvious as going 'night-night-day' right at the start.
I'm not actually sure what you mean by that. Isn't the Ghost only active during the Day?


But I like your other thoughts. Here's a sketch of the DT's role, up for further feedback and refinement:
  • During the Day, the Dead cast their votes for a Living player. Whoever gets the most votes at DL gets an extra vote, by the same principles of voting as the Game Thread works. (Should the DT deadline be the same, or DL-2h, or -1h?)
  • At the start of the Night, the DT gets a snippet of information from me, not too revealing but giving some info about the previous Day, including wolf and gifted activities. As a way to include dead baddies, perhaps in the event there is a dead wolf, I will give them a choice of 2-3 statements, and they get to choose which one gets revealed.
  • During the Night, the dead get to mull over this info. They also vote for a Ghost or No Ghost.
  • If a Ghost is chosen, for the duration of the next Day he haunts the Game Thread. During this time he cannot look at the DT or participate in the DT vote. In the GT, he can only speak in Tolkien quotes which must be in full sentences and at least 5 words long. References are appreciated but not required. He is not allowed to quote players, link, emphasize text (eg bold/italics). There is no limit to how many posts he can make that Day, or how many Tolkien quotes he can put in a single post. (Yea or nay? Should he be more restricted? Or test run the liberal option first?) He does not vote on the GT.
  • The Living cannot give specific instructions to the Ghost, under punishment of Isildur's Curse: they shall be banned from both the Living and the Dead threads. They are allowed to ask the Ghost questions, and of course allowed to discuss the Ghost's statements.


Next up: do you want a Seer or a Ranger or both? If it's just a Ranger, perhaps a flexible one (eg can protect someone for 2 Nights, can protect himself)
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Old 04-15-2021, 08:45 AM   #5187
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I'm not actually sure what you mean by that. Isn't the Ghost only active during the Day?
Sorry; I meant that "the Ghost" could be a role used by the DT in one of two ways: either to send in during the Day to talk to the LT, or as a Dead Seer read. In the latter case, there wouldn't be an actual 'Ghost' talking to the Living.

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At the start of the Night, the DT gets a snippet of information from me... in the event there is a dead wolf, I will give them a choice of 2-3 statements, and they get to choose which one gets revealed.
Nice development of the idea. So the dead wolf gets to decide what the dead learn? Secretly, or does everyone see their options?

Quote:
During the Night, the dead get to mull over this info. They also vote for a Ghost or No Ghost.
Do these Night effects also happen on the Night when there's only one dead player? It would be kind of funny for a dead Wolf to come back and just mock the living all day long.

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If a Ghost is chosen [etc]
I'm kind of inclined to the liberal version, perhaps with the proviso that if it really breaks things, the mod can switch to a limited version for subsequent ghost appearances.

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The Living cannot give specific instructions to the Ghost, under punishment of Isildur's Curse: they shall be banned from both the Living and the Dead threads. They are allowed to ask the Ghost questions, and of course allowed to discuss the Ghost's statements.
As long as the mod is fair when it comes to subjective posting (is "long quotes aren't very helpful" an instruction? How about "that wasn't very helpful"?), sure.

Quote:
Next up: do you want a Seer or a Ranger or both? If it's just a Ranger, perhaps a flexible one (eg can protect someone for 2 Nights, can protect himself)
No preference from my side.

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Old 04-15-2021, 09:13 AM   #5188
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I've set up an Admin Thread with a draft of rules and roles. We can continue planning there, to prevent spamming this thread.
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:33 AM   #5189
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Anyone fancy another game? Maybe starting in early June?

Any aspiring mods? I could be talked into it, if no one else wants to, but I think there were several people who wanted to mod earlier...
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Old 05-14-2021, 12:08 PM   #5190
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I'm around and game to play--though, this time, I am NOT an aspiring Mod. Though I should be available for Day-ly play, there's a reasonable chance I will have some distractions that prevent me from meeting a hard deadline every 24 hours.
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Old 05-14-2021, 12:59 PM   #5191
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I would enjoy another game.
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Old 05-14-2021, 01:03 PM   #5192
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I'm starting a summer internship in June, ping me when this is getting going and I might be able to manage a game, especially after I get a sense for my schedule. For now put me down as a hard maybe.
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Old 05-14-2021, 03:13 PM   #5193
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I'm always up for a game! Participation would be similar to last time assuming a similar deadline.
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Old 05-15-2021, 01:11 PM   #5194
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I'll play this time!
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Old 05-18-2021, 03:16 AM   #5195
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I would too happily participate in a game. A DL an hour earlier (or later, to completely avoid the tiniest chance of being around and thus solidifying that I won't be around on DL at all) would be an improvement, but then again, even the last game worked out quite well and there is something refreshing about being forced to vote early. It actually makes things simpler, to a degree.

I could also mod if nobody else wanted to, but just like others, I have modded "recently" (meaning, merely several years ago).
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:25 AM   #5196
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I might be away for the first week of June, but if we start after that I'd love to play! And see if I can make it through Day 1 this time
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Old 05-19-2021, 04:03 PM   #5197
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:58 AM   #5198
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I might be away for the first week of June, but if we start after that I'd love to play! And see if I can make it through Day 1 this time
Of course. *starts assembling gallows*

Anyways, perhaps we could then aim for sometime after that? The second week of June I have a several-day-long holiday that I do not wish to spend playing Werewolf, but the most important thing is that the majority can agree on some time window. Plus, if there are any more people interested in modding - I think we have several people willing to be the "backup option" (myself included), but perhaps there's been someone eagerly awaiting their turn? We might try also reaching out to Rikae whether they do not want to do the game they planned last year. But if there is anybody else, certainly speak up.
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Old 05-22-2021, 05:48 AM   #5199
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I'm good to play a game in June. I'll reach out to Rikae to see if she's still available to mod the game she was planning.
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Old 06-12-2021, 12:31 PM   #5200
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