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Old 06-14-2021, 08:01 AM   #481
Galadriel55
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I am in a bit of a dilemma. I am trying to translate Beren's title (knyaz), and this one word is proving more difficult than doing word-play and puns and weird expressions and other language tricks. As far as my research shows, Beren and his predecessors only held the title of Lord of Ladros. In this fic though, he is often addressed as knyaz or knyazhich (son of a knyaz). His mother Emeldir is a knyaginya. And I have no idea how to put that into English.

Because. Knyaz translates to "prince". "Prince" has two meanings, son of a king, and person who rules more or less independently but still under a king. The "Princes of the Noldor" actually fulfill both criteria, being descendants of Finwe as well as rulers of their own lands under the High King of the Noldor. Semantically, the word is fine. But it's as limp as a dead fish. It's flimsy. And very awkward in the feminine. Luthien is a princess - but you just can't call Emeldir a princess. (As an aside, I wonder if the person who called Nerwen "princess" would ever be able to speak again, if the word is taken with all the modern connotations). And even for the male title holders, it's still questionable, and creates confusion. I don't want to make it "prince". I'm not calling Beren a "duke", another possible direct translation. Alternatively, could be translated even as "chieftain", but that lacks the right air. I don't know what to call him.

So, I searched the length of Wikipedia and Google in general for title ideas, and gave up on finding anything that would be a perfect replacement. For now I have the male as "prince" and female as "lady", but I want to change it to something decently suitable. The possibilities right now that I see:

1) Leave the title as Lord, and then Lady for the female. Not my favourite, because lords are bountiful in Beleriand, and knyaz in the fic is specific for Edain rulers (perhaps even just Beoring rulers - I don't quite remember). Also, "lord" is more general, and can mean anything from a High King to a respectful title without any authority or lands attached.

2) Earl and, dunno, Lady again. Wiki's definition is close to what I'm looking for: "The title originates in the Old English word eorl, meaning "a man of noble birth or rank". The word is cognate with the Scandinavian form jarl, and meant "chieftain", particularly a chieftain set to rule a territory in a king's stead." I already had half a mind to call him Jarl, except the J is visually jarring. So Earl would be a good replacement... except that it is very much Eorl and Rohan. And I sort of imagined that in the language development of ME, the title Eorl and related words came after the name Eorl, in the manner of "Caesar" in our world. Of course, I can write it off as a "translation from Taliska" thing, where the more "modern" word is used to translate the title in full knowledge that Beren's "real" title would have sounded different. Or, alternatively, if Eorl was named "noble" for an existing word, then the word use is completely justified. There is also "Count/Countess" which is a similar real world title, but I don't like it as much, it's a bit too Comte and French.

3) Something that means "King" but sounds distinct. Perhaps a variation of konung. That might be an acceptable solution, though it also has the feminine problem, and will be slightly problematic for me personally, because "konung" is the word my LOTR translation uses for Kings of Rohan.


Any thoughts or suggestions? What sounds less jarring - Earl Beren? Cyning Beren?
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:47 AM   #482
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Any thoughts or suggestions? What sounds less jarring - Earl Beren? Cyning Beren?
It's quite possible that Beren's title was formally Beor. It's a Taliska word meaning "vassal", which was taken by Balan as a personal name; the Fingolfin/Finarfin case shows that adopting the first king's name as (part of) your own was a Middle-earth concept.

Liege is a viable translation of beor, in the sense of 'The subject of a sovereign or lord; a liegeman'. But in more common use, it refers to the sovereign or lord themselves: Monty Python and the Holy Grail, of all things, uses this ("Bedevere, my liege!"). If we picture Beren as a feudal lord, it's a very possible word.

Landgrave is exactly right for Beren's position - he's a major landowner who owes fealty directly to Finrod as overlord. But it's maybe a bit long, and too modern-sounding even though nobody knows the word.

If you want to go for something people will recognise but not immediately be able to place - Thane, as in "Hail Macbeth, Thane of Cawdor". Actually that might be a really good option - it's a title for landowners under the crown, but it's also the origin of Thain (of the Shire). Middle-earth precendent!

Unlike a lot of the others, you can also use it in all positions - "My Thane", "Thane Beren", "Beren, Thane of Dorthonion". It doesn't have a historical feminine form (because sexism & patriarchy), but it ultimately derives from the same roots as "thine", the pronoun. Thine is the source of German dein, which in the feminine is deine - 'thine-a(h)'. A female title Thana or Thegna would fit in nicely. Or go full Hobbit and just do Thain/Thaina.

I'm kind of inclined towards Thane/Thegna myself; the feminine is different enough that it looks natural, while not being so different that you can't connect the two.

hS
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Old 06-14-2021, 11:36 AM   #483
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I'm kind of inclined towards Thane/Thegna myself; the feminine is different enough that it looks natural, while not being so different that you can't connect the two.
Hui, you are brilliant! I am going for Thane/Thegna. I am going back through the document and cutting out all the "princes" to Angband where they belong. Maybe make up a Thaneling (Thegnling?) for a Thane's child too, unless there is already a word for this.

Would the word still apply to pre-Beor chiefs who did not have land or fealty, only chiefdom? They aren't a problem, they can be "chieftains" without any difficulty, just a point of interest.
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:34 PM   #484
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Hui, you are brilliant! I am going for Thane/Thegna. I am going back through the document and cutting out all the "princes" to Angband where they belong. Maybe make up a Thaneling (Thegnling?) for a Thane's child too, unless there is already a word for this.
You know, I don't think most of the titles have diminutive forms like that. 'Prince' isn't etymologically related to 'queen', for instance; and 'baronet' is an entirely separate title to 'baron'.

In the English peerage, a son of a peer can often use his father's highest secondary title (if he doesn't have one of his own). James, Viscount Severn, is actually the son of the real Viscount Severn - who is also Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, and so doesn't need to be a viscount.

So as son of Thane Barahir, Beren would be Lord Beren (of Ladros). I think that the husband of a ruling Thegn (it's Galadriel again, I guess?) would also take a secondary title, on the grounds that male titles usually outrank female ones (did I already mention sexism?).

If you want to avoid getting lords all over the place, I think "Thaneson" would be the most likely form. The female would be "Thanesdottir", or some variant with different vowels: -dotter, -datter.

Alternately, apparently English uses -ing as a patronymic, so "Thegning" or "Thaning" might work? They both look a bit clumsy though. "Thaining" would preserve the sound, but looks like a typo for training. "Thanet" should be avoided like the plague.

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Would the word still apply to pre-Beor chiefs who did not have land or fealty, only chiefdom? They aren't a problem, they can be "chieftains" without any difficulty, just a point of interest.
I think "Chieftain" would be best for them, because it's explicitly the title of Lady Haleth's heirs, who had no overlord. You could almost imagine they used it in defiance: yeah, we're just chieftains, none of your fancy Thanes and Lords and whatnot - but at least we're free.

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Old 06-14-2021, 05:49 PM   #485
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Well, just as I said that "thane" is only for Edain, I came across a "Thane Maedhros" - but it's said by a Beoring. I clearly haven't paid sufficient attention when I read this. What still needs to be proven though is whether "thane" would ever be used by an Elf to refer to another Elf. In any case, I kept Maedhros as Lord, leaving Thanes for the mortals.

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You know, I don't think most of the titles have diminutive forms like that.
I know, but they should. (Well, I think so, because they do in Russian). Generally, English doesn't do as much word-building as Russian does, and I think this is part of it. I can't think of children-titles for all titles, but for some certainly. Going with knyaz, there are knyaginya (wife), knyazhich (son), and knyazhna (daughter). For king (korol) there is a related queen (koroleva); while "prince/princess" are usually used for their children by analogy to Western European languages, there is a possible "korolevich / korolevna" for their children. In fact, Luthien in this fic is a "korolevna" to Korol Thingol. But it's a moot point, mainly - I don't think the children-titles appear often enough to be ungainly, at least for "thane".

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I think "Chieftain" would be best for them, because it's explicitly the title of Lady Haleth's heirs, who had no overlord. You could almost imagine they used it in defiance: yeah, we're just chieftains, none of your fancy Thanes and Lords and whatnot - but at least we're free.
...Right. Which means I have to go back and make sure I actually call the Haladin leader a Chieftain. I am having trouble keeping my languages and canonicities straight... But it's worth it, I think. This book does a lot of world-building and language-building, a lot of it Elvish that goes over my head (there are too many Elvish dialects for their own good, and for mine too) but quite a bit of it real-language word-smithying, which is both confusing and delightful to track.

Currently my difficult word is "esteemed" as a form of address, as in "my dear Frodo", but when you want to say someone is not dear but, well, esteemed. I can totally hear the concept in my head playing out for someone like Bilbo (a respectable hobbit, one must say!), or Thorin (a most respectable and admirable Dwarf) - but while it sounds decent in third person I am not sure how it plays out as an epithet of address. "Most esteemed Bilbo, you are a wonderful hobbit and all, but so much journeying about across the Brandywine simply cannot be good for a hobbit!" Ugh.
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Old 06-15-2021, 02:21 AM   #486
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Well, just as I said that "thane" is only for Edain, I came across a "Thane Maedhros" - but it's said by a Beoring. I clearly haven't paid sufficient attention when I read this. What still needs to be proven though is whether "thane" would ever be used by an Elf to refer to another Elf. In any case, I kept Maedhros as Lord, leaving Thanes for the mortals.
Well, we do use what we're used to. I think Maedhros would be quite put out at being referred to as a vassal-lord, but that doesn't mean a Beoring wouldn't do it.

Given the ambiguity inherent in whether Maedhros is a king or not (he's in a similar position to Finrod, except for the abdication thing), 'Governor' or 'Warden' might actually be my preferred title for him. He is, theoretically, running Himring in the name of the High King, and it sets up a nice modern/ancient dichotomy with the Thane title. For additional ambiguity, the other Feanorions could just be "prince".

(It is possible that I choose my words based entirely on what would wind House Feanor up the most.)

(More historically, the name of the March of Maedhros suggests the Marcher Lords. I note that the Welsh term is cognate with 'baron'.)

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I know, but they should. (Well, I think so, because they do in Russian). Generally, English doesn't do as much word-building as Russian does, and I think this is part of it. I can't think of children-titles for all titles, but for some certainly. Going with knyaz, there are knyaginya (wife), knyazhich (son), and knyazhna (daughter). For king (korol) there is a related queen (koroleva); while "prince/princess" are usually used for their children by analogy to Western European languages, there is a possible "korolevich / korolevna" for their children. In fact, Luthien in this fic is a "korolevna" to Korol Thingol. But it's a moot point, mainly - I don't think the children-titles appear often enough to be ungainly, at least for "thane".
No need to invent diminutives when you can just find another language and mug it for vocab!

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...Right. Which means I have to go back and make sure I actually call the Haladin leader a Chieftain.
I mean, you don't have to. It looks like the Haladin word being translated is just "Hal", meaning 'chief' or 'head'. I'm now amused by the idea of The Hal and The Beor both using the other's title as a veiled insult. ^_^ (Note: both of these are technically 'Taliska' words, from back when Taliska was the language of both Haleth and Beor. Given that both remain in use, we can probably assume they were split when Tolkien decided they were different languages.) Unlike the Beor, there's no overlord to give the Hal a different title - unless you think Thingol has come up with a word for 'that grubby lot squatting in my borderlands'.

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I am having trouble keeping my languages and canonicities straight... But it's worth it, I think. This book does a lot of world-building and language-building, a lot of it Elvish that goes over my head (there are too many Elvish dialects for their own good, and for mine too) but quite a bit of it real-language word-smithying, which is both confusing and delightful to track.
It does sound like a lot of fun.

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Currently my difficult word is "esteemed" as a form of address, as in "my dear Frodo", but when you want to say someone is not dear but, well, esteemed. I can totally hear the concept in my head playing out for someone like Bilbo (a respectable hobbit, one must say!), or Thorin (a most respectable and admirable Dwarf) - but while it sounds decent in third person I am not sure how it plays out as an epithet of address. "Most esteemed Bilbo, you are a wonderful hobbit and all, but so much journeying about across the Brandywine simply cannot be good for a hobbit!" Ugh.
I mean... you sound like Gandalf when you say that, so I think it works? Except I'd go with "my" over "most", like with 'dear'. Looking at terms of address in the British peerages, it looks like we mostly use Honourable and Reverend, with an occasional Much Honoured (Scottish feudal barons), Most Noble (Dukes and Marquesses), or Venerable (Anglican Archdeacons). So not a lot of use there. Given that English letter-writing went all-in on 'dear' a long time ago, I'm not sure you'll improve on 'esteemed' unless you literally stumble across something.

hS
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Old 06-15-2021, 02:34 AM   #487
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Of course you could also go all-in on the "Taliska is based on Gothic" factoid and call everyone Frauja Beren, Ģiudans Finrod, Reiks Maedhros etc.

No?

hS
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Old 06-15-2021, 09:31 PM   #488
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Well, we do use what we're used to. I think Maedhros would be quite put out at being referred to as a vassal-lord, but that doesn't mean a Beoring wouldn't do it.
That's the thing though - "knyaz" doesn't have to be a vassal-lord, he can be an independent ruler in his own right. Could technically be a landless ruler too, a chieftain, especially if said in the diminutive. The whole lot of them could be knyaz. But they can't all be thanes. So Maedhros will stick to being a lord, I think.

(Knyaz is just a very difficult word, but "thane" is an absolutely inspired suggestion for the bulk of its meaning)

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(It is possible that I choose my words based entirely on what would wind House Feanor up the most.)
You and Beren have that in common.

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Originally Posted by Hui
No need to invent diminutives when you can just find another language and mug it for vocab!
Lol. I mean, a mishmash of stolen vocab is both English's beauty and its downfall.

My most recent language discovery is actually in relation to "happy", and happened (pun totally intended) because of the French Red and Black. I remember putting "malheur" there for "misfortune" or something similar, and it got me thinking, and that got me searching, and I discovered a three-language correlation between positive emotions and luck. ^.^ Because in French, the words malheur (misfortune), bonheur (wellbeing, happiness), and the adjectives hereux (happy) and malhereux (unhappy) all come from "heur", an obsolete word meaning something like "chance, luck, fortune". And what do you know? In English, if you happen (=chance) to be happy (=lucky), your hap (=luck) probably works in your favour, you just always hap (=have the fortune) to choose right. And if you are unhappy (=unlucky), you probably ran into a lot of mishaps (=misfortune, mischance) - and if it's real bad, you might be right hapless (=unfortunate). There is a similar pattern in Russian that I will not go into in detail, but there too the words for "happy things" and "lucky things" come from the same word family. I am slightly too happy to have happened upon this! It's something I obviously knew already but haven't consciously thought of before, and this is a delightful word family to have discovered - and rather large for English too! Which begs a slightly philosophical question. From the perspective of language development, at least for English, a lucky man is a happy man; but may it also be that a happy man is a lucky man?

And with that somewhat removed thought to chew on, I shall return to the business of notes and words... Thank you for all your comments and suggestions and detailed editing!!!
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Old 06-27-2021, 05:52 PM   #489
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I have been up to things.

Firstly, I finally dragged myself past those inexplicably and unexpectedly painful opening stanzas, which I will most likely redo anyways because they are an odd mishmash of styles and sound awful. I made it to Finrod, where the song sounds significantly better. ^.^ Here is.

Secondly, I am making headway on the translation, I am nearly halfway through Part 1, and made it to the first rendition of Wilwarin. I am increasingly aware though that my method of side-by-side type-on-the-right-as-I-read-on-the-left is perhaps good for quantity but not quality, and certainly not for the sentence structure. But I figured, as it will need a read-over anyways before going places, I will fix it all when I read it again a second time. I don't have the patience to go through the same chapter I just read recently (besides, this whole thing is just an unconscious excuse for another re-read, who am I kidding...).

Thirdly, I came across an Elf calling another Elf "knyaz", proving that my memory is absolutely no good. I'm still sticking to the translation scheme from before, given the ambiguity of certain titles, and because I think that Men should have their own thing going on.

And finally, when looking up some terminology, I came across a forum where they tried to translate the book into English before it was even properly published, back in 2002... I did not see a full translation, but they had a couple passages. I remember that when I was looking for this book in different online formats last summer, I came across a few scattered chapters in English, but I didn't love the translation, and besides, it was like 4 unconnected chapters. However, I can't find it now to figure out if it was the work of that forum. What I might steal from their efforts though is the title. They called it Beyond the Dawn, which echoes a certain Blind Guardian song that the author clearly knew and loved. This stuff is Internet Archaeology. It kinda baffles me that I'm picking up projects that started twenty years ago... Like, yes I was born then, but I'm not sure if I even started first grade when the Zong and the Dawn were made!


As a humorous aside, I am starting to think I should be running a list of autocorrect bloopers. Firstly, Google Docs doesn't seem to like archaic sentence structure, or archaic words in general, and keeps trying to correct it to something modern that makes no sense in context. But these are just suggestions, it doesn't do anything. But every now and again I go back a couple sentences and see that what was supposed to be "rohir" has been autocorrected to "roger", or things like that... It has no patience with Elvish.
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Old 06-29-2021, 09:19 AM   #490
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I have been up to things.
Excellent.

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Firstly, I finally dragged myself past those inexplicably and unexpectedly painful opening stanzas, which I will most likely redo anyways because they are an odd mishmash of styles and sound awful. I made it to Finrod, where the song sounds significantly better. ^.^ Here is.
Hurrah! I think it sounds perfectly good. I've done a quick recording, in which Beren sounds more like Finrod and Finrod drifts towards being a Son of Feanor, but that's fine. That final 'freeeeeedooooom' broke my throat though. ^_~

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Secondly, I am making headway on the translation, I am nearly halfway through Part 1, and made it to the first rendition of Wilwarin. I am increasingly aware though that my method of side-by-side type-on-the-right-as-I-read-on-the-left is perhaps good for quantity but not quality, and certainly not for the sentence structure. But I figured, as it will need a read-over anyways before going places, I will fix it all when I read it again a second time. I don't have the patience to go through the same chapter I just read recently (besides, this whole thing is just an unconscious excuse for another re-read, who am I kidding...).
I snuck in and dropped some more comments; mostly on ties to and breaks from the canon, rather than nitpicking word-use. There was one word that threw me totally - I think it was dirgal or dirgol, and I have no idea what it's meant to be except from context.

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Thirdly, I came across an Elf calling another Elf "knyaz", proving that my memory is absolutely no good. I'm still sticking to the translation scheme from before, given the ambiguity of certain titles, and because I think that Men should have their own thing going on.
I mean... the word means "prince" in the old sense, as in "Prince of Gwynedd", "Prince of Powys", "Princes of the Noldor". The drift in the modern sense of that word leaves the concept without a precise word, so yeah, it's going to fracture the translation a bit. But that's a translator's job - remember "dissolved in the bitterness of bread" or whatever Amarie went on about?

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And finally, when looking up some terminology, I came across a forum where they tried to translate the book into English before it was even properly published, back in 2002... I did not see a full translation, but they had a couple passages. I remember that when I was looking for this book in different online formats last summer, I came across a few scattered chapters in English, but I didn't love the translation, and besides, it was like 4 unconnected chapters. However, I can't find it now to figure out if it was the work of that forum. What I might steal from their efforts though is the title. They called it Beyond the Dawn, which echoes a certain Blind Guardian song that the author clearly knew and loved. This stuff is Internet Archaeology. It kinda baffles me that I'm picking up projects that started twenty years ago... Like, yes I was born then, but I'm not sure if I even started first grade when the Zong and the Dawn were made!
Having been involved in a Silmarillion Film project that included a few people from the Downs back around '04, the Zong gives me very much the same 'picking up ancient projects' feel, believe me. ^_~ That is a cool title.

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As a humorous aside, I am starting to think I should be running a list of autocorrect bloopers. Firstly, Google Docs doesn't seem to like archaic sentence structure, or archaic words in general, and keeps trying to correct it to something modern that makes no sense in context. But these are just suggestions, it doesn't do anything. But every now and again I go back a couple sentences and see that what was supposed to be "rohir" has been autocorrected to "roger", or things like that... It has no patience with Elvish.
What, you don't remember Elroger Half-even, son of the lord of Milagros/Ravendeal?

(That's slightly unfair to autocorrect: it does know "dell", though I suspect it thinks I'm talking about computers.)

hS
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Old 06-29-2021, 04:15 PM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Hurrah! I think it sounds perfectly good. I've done a quick recording, in which Beren sounds more like Finrod and Finrod drifts towards being a Son of Feanor, but that's fine. That final 'freeeeeedooooom' broke my throat though. ^_~
The link doesn't work. ;( It's just the music without the lyrics.

Also, I can shift the piece a couple tones down once I'm finished if that makes it easier to sing. I don't like shifting them too far, because it distorts the instrument sounds, but small shift would be fine. It's in Dm currently, and I just really don't want to be stuck writing it in Bbm or something, so it will stick in the nice clean key for now unless you'd rather I moved it down a lot. How do you feel about it?

...Actually, why guess, when we can test experimentally. Cm / Am. How do these compare? The Am is already pushed past where the wind instruments start sounding different, so if we go that low I might have to rewrite chunks of it, but if it means it can be sung then no can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I snuck in and dropped some more comments; mostly on ties to and breaks from the canon, rather than nitpicking word-use.
I saw! Thank you for the comments, they are always a delight to read. Best notification to wake up to in the morning, when my phone tells me I have comments on my drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
There was one word that threw me totally - I think it was dirgal or dirgol, and I have no idea what it's meant to be except from context.
Neither do I! But from the context, a dirgol is supposed to be something of a Scottish plaid. It's one of those neologisms that I don't even know where to place linguistically - presumably Taliska, because no identifiable Elvish root and it's a specific cultural thing? But it has an Elvish ring to it. Who knows. I also have assumed that it's a neologism because I know of no equivalent in either Russian or English, but it may well be based on some obscure real world word in either language or a different language altogether (like weidh or deidi, just in that first chapter...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I mean... the word means "prince" in the old sense, as in "Prince of Gwynedd", "Prince of Powys", "Princes of the Noldor". The drift in the modern sense of that word leaves the concept without a precise word, so yeah, it's going to fracture the translation a bit. But that's a translator's job - remember "dissolved in the bitterness of bread" or whatever Amarie went on about?
Lol. I did not remember, and now I do again. :-D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Having been involved in a Silmarillion Film project that included a few people from the Downs back around '04, the Zong gives me very much the same 'picking up ancient projects' feel, believe me. ^_~
A Silmarillion Film?! Where did that end up and why is it not all over the Downs already? I wanna see! *excited noises*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
What, you don't remember Elroger Half-even, son of the lord of Milagros/Ravendeal?

(That's slightly unfair to autocorrect: it does know "dell", though I suspect it thinks I'm talking about computers.)
...I was actually in stitches at this. But that is entirely fair to autocorrect! It doesn't usually automatically change legit words like "dell", but it keeps highlighting them to suggest things like "deal". Well, maybe not that exactly, but it's not even super archaic words, anything that's slightly out of the ordinary sets it off. It even insists on correcting "gruDge" to "gruNge". I am not sure in what universe "grunge" is either a more common or more sensible word in that context than "grudge", but here you go. Let's go fixing what's not broken.

(To actually be fair to it though, it often catches grammar lapses when my verb tenses don't align, or when I double-type a a word :P, or have a legitimate typo. But some suggestions are ridiculous. This roger holds a grunge.)

(Also, it seems to possess some level of intelligence, as I think it gave up on highlighting Beren. :-D)

EDIT: I just had a moment. It corrected "barad" to "Barad". Hui, I swear this thing is learning! It's gonna start speaking Elvish any day now.
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Old 06-30-2021, 01:48 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
The link doesn't work. ;( It's just the music without the lyrics.
That's because I accidentally used your link. -_- Here we go - the actual me singing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Also, I can shift the piece a couple tones down once I'm finished if that makes it easier to sing. I don't like shifting them too far, because it distorts the instrument sounds, but small shift would be fine. It's in Dm currently, and I just really don't want to be stuck writing it in Bbm or something, so it will stick in the nice clean key for now unless you'd rather I moved it down a lot. How do you feel about it?
I don't think you need to shift it; I can hit the note okay, it's just a bit of a struggle to hold it. Mixture of volume, length, and not properly anticipating it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Neither do I! But from the context, a dirgol is supposed to be something of a Scottish plaid. It's one of those neologisms that I don't even know where to place linguistically - presumably Taliska, because no identifiable Elvish root and it's a specific cultural thing? But it has an Elvish ring to it. Who knows. I also have assumed that it's a neologism because I know of no equivalent in either Russian or English, but it may well be based on some obscure real world word in either language or a different language altogether (like weidh or deidi, just in that first chapter...).
It could be any one of a dozen things in Sindarin; the natural read would be dÓr-coll, but that means [man/difficult]-[cloak/hollow]. It's very tempting to derive it from the English 'dirk', ie knife, but that leaves -ol, and why would they be coining cod-Middle English terms in a Russian fanfic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
A Silmarillion Film?! Where did that end up and why is it not all over the Downs already? I wanna see! *excited noises*
Sadly it ran into the usual A/V project problem: plenty of writers (we had full scripts for Fall of the Noldor and Lay of Luthien), plenty of voice-actors, and nobody who could do music or visuals.

Hilariously, the forum is still there; apparently I also started a script for War of Wrath (I keep finding scraps of paper with bits of this on it), and - sound familiar? - a translation of a foreign script for Fall of Gondolin.

... and there is actually a trace of Fall of the Noldor in the Zong. During the Oath, the swords coming in one by one is directly how I played it in the script:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FotN Scene 26
[Caranthir leaps up onto the steps beside his father, sword flickering red]

CARANTHIR: Be he elf, or orc, or demon foul of Morgoth BauglirÖ

[Celegorm and Curufin leap up to join him]

CARANTHIR, CELEGORM, CURUFIN: Be he Mortal dark that in after days on Earth shall dwellÖ

[Amrod and Amras step up to join them]

CARANTHIR, CELEGORM, CURUFIN, AMROD, AMRAS: Shall no law, nor love, nor league of swordsÖ

[Maedhros steps up to join them]

SONS OF FňANOR EXCEPT MAGLOR: No might, nor mercyÖ

[Maglor joins in from the crowd]

SONS OF FňANOR: Not moveless fate, defend him forever from the fierce vengeance of the Sons of FŽanor, whoso seize, or steal, or finding keep the fair enchanted globes of crystal whose glory dies not, the Silmarils. We have sworn forever!
(The whole thing comes hilariously close to being Leithian Script fanfic. I've just seen Edrahil's name fly past... XD)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
EDIT: I just had a moment. It corrected "barad" to "Barad". Hui, I swear this thing is learning! It's gonna start speaking Elvish any day now.
The world's first native speaker of Elvish is going to be a Google autocorrect AI. Love it.

hS
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Old 06-30-2021, 08:51 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
That's because I accidentally used your link. -_- Here we go - the actual me singing.
Hey, I think I like it! Once it's smoothed out (and notes anticipated ), it will be great! It's encouraging that the music sounds like what I intended it to be in the good places, and it's actually not so bad in the places I thought are a bit contrived.

A small shift downward is remarkably easy to do, so it's still on the table at any point in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
It could be any one of a dozen things in Sindarin; the natural read would be dÓr-coll, but that means [man/difficult]-[cloak/hollow]. It's very tempting to derive it from the English 'dirk', ie knife, but that leaves -ol, and why would they be coining cod-Middle English terms in a Russian fanfic?
Because the author is mad in the most beautiful way possible and derives words from unexpected places. Like deidi that I mentioned before - look me in the eye and tell me that has nothing to do with "daddy". There's a bunch more clearly English words that have been stylized. But in this case, "difficult cloak" is not actually out of the question, if "difficult" means "intricate". So perhaps Sindarin after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Sadly it ran into the usual A/V project problem: plenty of writers (we had full scripts for Fall of the Noldor and Lay of Luthien), plenty of voice-actors, and nobody who could do music or visuals.

Hilariously, the forum is still there; apparently I also started a script for War of Wrath (I keep finding scraps of paper with bits of this on it), and - sound familiar? - a translation of a foreign script for Fall of Gondolin.
That's a whole forum just for that project!!! That is amazing! Sad that it didn't see action though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
... and there is actually a trace of Fall of the Noldor in the Zong. During the Oath, the swords coming in one by one is directly how I played it in the script:
It lives on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The world's first native speaker of Elvish is going to be a Google autocorrect AI. Love it.
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Old 07-04-2021, 01:18 PM   #494
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Whaddaya know? Musical-Beren has a much easier time of it being distressed and dismayed than he had of being awed and humble. I present to you - the second section. I might even have to smooth it down to curb his enthusiasm, so that the peak of his despair falls later in the song.

Also, in the event that you choose to read onward, I did proofread the second chapter briefly, because reading is supposed to be enjoyable and not make you cringe at the sentence structure. The real fun begins in Chapter 3 (as does the real weirdness). So if/when you decide to go for it full swing, just bear with it until the end of the third chapter, at which point the story starts shaping up and picking up the pace. Just another fair bit of warning - if you start reading quicker than I can write, you might catch up with me somewhere half-way despite my head start (halfway through Chapter 6 now). Up to you. Just let me know, and I will do my best to proofread ahead of where you're reading.
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Old 07-12-2021, 06:24 PM   #495
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I've had a busy week last week, but made some more progress this weekend on both projects. I am hesitant to put a deadline on Appeal, because things are still a bit unpredictable, but as I only have one section to go I expect it to be sometime soon. For Dawn, I put the page number to which it's proofread in the title of the doc, and I will remove the "proofread" label once it's fully done.

But, obligatory progress reporting aside, here's something to enjoy in the meantime. Last night I was reading the Oath in verse, and it kept popping into my head as I was falling asleep in weird and garish combinations, which I put down on paper this morning. Voila:


Be he friend, or foe, or demon wild
Of Morgoth, Elf, or mortal child,
The oath goes ever on and on,
For cold be hand and heart and bone
When spring unfolds the beechen curl
To be dissolved, and backwards hurled
Where rides the Sun and Stars do dwell
With Elbereth Gilthoniel,
Last one whose realm was fair and free
When werewolves howl, and ravens flee,
And fires burn, and cauldrons bubble,
Double double toil and trouble,
From northern waste to southern hill -
So long as it ends with "Silmaril".
- HOME 1.5: The Book of Lost Minds
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Old 07-14-2021, 07:53 AM   #496
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Well I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it goes in the book, so I don't know what you're complaining about!

("So long as it ends with Silmaril". Snort. ^_^)

Meanwhile, while you've been being productive, I've just been mucking about. I remain firmly convinced that Les Mis should be retold as the Fall of Gondolin, and I've found Aredhel's signature song:

I Dreamed A Dream

There was a time when he was kind
When his voice was so soft
And his words inviting...

There was a time when love was blind
And the woods were my world
And the world was exciting...

There was a time...
... when it all went wrong.

I dreamed a dream in times gone by
Of life beyond these walls uncharted
I stood before my brother's throne
I took his leave and I departed

I wandered far through light and dark
I found him deep in forest shaded
I took his hand, he took my heart
New songs we sang, new wine we tasted!

But the werewolves come at night
With their howling soft as thunder
And they tear your hopes apart
And they turn your dreams to shame...!

A hundred summers by his side
A son I bore, and named in secret
All through his childhood must I bide...
But we were gone when autumn came.

But still he followed after me
And I dared dream that love did drive him
But he sought only for Maeglin
What bitter shaft to slay my longing!

I had a dream the world would be
Wider by far than walls of Gondolin
I dreamed his love would set me free!
My love has killed the dream I dreamed...

(This completely breaks the idea of doing it in order, since Fantine has three more songs after this. But I'm not sure there was ever any chance that "Lovely Ladies" would fit into Gondolin so perhaps it's all to the best.)

hS
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Old 07-15-2021, 07:50 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
My love has killed the dream I dreamed...
Quite literally.

Lovely Ladies - hmm... With some heavy alterations, I can sort of see it a Minions sort of song where Maeglin escalates through levels of inquisitors and torture chambers, until he gets promised a certain lovely lady. "Mule-head captives, crying up a call, Standing up or lying down or any way at all, Bash their brains out all against the wall!". But yeah, certainly not an Aredhel song. That lovely lady would smack someone upside the head for the suggestion.

But now that you've brought up Les Mis again, the image I really can't get out of my head is the Lay Sauron as Thenardier. "Welcome, dear Elf, sit yourself down, and meet the best shapeshifter in town... Master of the Vale! Master of the Isle! Master of all sorts of creatures foul and vile! Sing a saucy song, make a little stir, Feral wargs appreciate a bon-viveur..."




...Not much to say on the "productive" front. Here's 3/4 of Appeal... but I won't be able to work on it this weekend. Hopefully during the week, but it will be a 4:30am wake-up type of week so we will see. I make no promise to fetch a Silmaril.
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Old 07-20-2021, 04:46 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
But now that you've brought up Les Mis again, the image I really can't get out of my head is the Lay Sauron as Thenardier. "Welcome, dear Elf, sit yourself down, and meet the best shapeshifter in town... Master of the Vale! Master of the Isle! Master of all sorts of creatures foul and vile! Sing a saucy song, make a little stir, Feral wargs appreciate a bon-viveur..."
Quote:
[THURINGWETHIL:]
I flew down here so I could eat a prince,
But mighty Morgoth, 'ave you seen what's 'appened since...?

Master of the Isle? Isn't worth me claw!
Necromancer, sorcerer, and lifelong bore!
Cunning, cruel, and strong? So he says, but 'ere:
Took him half a decade to kill Barahir!
Gotta lotta freaks of nature, each one with a nasty smile,
Void knows 'ow I bear it, living with these werewolves on the Isle!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
...Not much to say on the "productive" front. Here's 3/4 of Appeal... but I won't be able to work on it this weekend. Hopefully during the week, but it will be a 4:30am wake-up type of week so we will see. I make no promise to fetch a Silmaril.
This sounds really good. I can't wait to hear it with the ending and Arrival in place! The music is so evocative that it may wind up being another one I have to film "live" just to do it justice.

hS
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Old 07-31-2021, 09:15 AM   #499
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Quote:
[THURINGWETHIL:]
I flew down here so I could eat a prince,
But mighty Morgoth, 'ave you seen what's 'appened since...?

Master of the Isle? Isn't worth me claw!
Necromancer, sorcerer, and lifelong bore!
Cunning, cruel, and strong? So he says, but 'ere:
Took him half a decade to kill Barahir!
Gotta lotta freaks of nature, each one with a nasty smile,
Void knows 'ow I bear it, living with these werewolves on the Isle!
That is... fabulous. That is exactly what I was looking for, and what I needed.

Fun fact: I read that post when you first made it, and it made my day. And then I forgot that I read it, and read it again sometime later, and it made another day.

Took him half a decade to kill Barahir... *snort*. Priceless.

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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
This sounds really good. I can't wait to hear it with the ending and Arrival in place! The music is so evocative that it may wind up being another one I have to film "live" just to do it justice.
So - good thing that I made no promise to fetch a Silmaril, because I've been working 15 hour days and was on call last weekend, and not only did I not advance a single bar but I even forgot what the thing sounds like. Now, I am not on call every weekend, so I will have some time to work on it, but it's gonna be really slow going... Like, this weekend I expect to do maybe two lines, max a single 4-line stanza. I am trying to cut down the working hours too, so maybe at one point I'll catch up to my life and be able to do things for fun again on weekdays as well.
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Old 08-02-2021, 06:05 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
That is... fabulous. That is exactly what I was looking for, and what I needed.

Fun fact: I read that post when you first made it, and it made my day. And then I forgot that I read it, and read it again sometime later, and it made another day.
^_^ The best part is that the Forces of Evil sounding like they come from East London is pure Tolkien canon: 'Sit up!' said the Orc. 'My lads are tired of lugging you about.' Now I kind of want to re-record Sauron with a thick Cockney accent and drop all my aitches...

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
So - good thing that I made no promise to fetch a Silmaril, because I've been working 15 hour days and was on call last weekend, and not only did I not advance a single bar but I even forgot what the thing sounds like. Now, I am not on call every weekend, so I will have some time to work on it, but it's gonna be really slow going... Like, this weekend I expect to do maybe two lines, max a single 4-line stanza. I am trying to cut down the working hours too, so maybe at one point I'll catch up to my life and be able to do things for fun again on weekdays as well.
We always knew it was going to take a long time. There's never a need to apologise for doing stuff other than Zonging - the Valar know I do! Also: fifteen hour days, ouch. I can't even imagine.

While I'm here... I remembered just lately that a few years back, I'd mused on whether one could make a two-person location-based performance of the Beren and Luthien story in a particular Welsh valley. As it happens, I'm going to be in that area again next week, so if I get a chance I may go see if I can find 'shooting locations' for the songs of the Zong. No actual filming, of course (though I do have relatives of a dramatic bent...), but I might be able to snap some nice photos for a hypothetical movie. ^_^

(Sadly, I think the cave that would have been Nargothrond is now gated off. Nice big cavern, would have filled it with candles for Beren and Finrod to meet... ah well.)

hS
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Old 08-02-2021, 07:17 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
^_^ The best part is that the Forces of Evil sounding like they come from East London is pure Tolkien canon: 'Sit up!' said the Orc. 'My lads are tired of lugging you about.' Now I kind of want to re-record Sauron with a thick Cockney accent and drop all my aitches...
I think we have a new aesthetic. ^.^

Quote:
[Thuringwethil, Best Eliza Doolittle voice:]

I will go to this Isle somewhere,
Carry messages everywhere,
Fly through the cold dark air -
Oh, wouldn’t it be lovely?

Lots of captives for me to eat,
Fresh warm blood and tender meat,
The wolves would rub my feet -
Oh, wouldn’t it be lovely!

[Some time later, regretfully:]

I should have flown all night, I should have flown all night,
What made me stay on base?
I should have spread my wings, and done a thousand things
To leave this dreadful place!
By the way, does Tolkien ever say what exactly happened to Thuringwethil? Did she just happen to be an unfortunate evil soul who got crushed in the fall of the tower? How did she actually die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
We always knew it was going to take a long time. There's never a need to apologise for doing stuff other than Zonging - the Valar know I do! Also: fifteen hour days, ouch. I can't even imagine.
Maybe you just had more realistic expectations for this project all along. I was the "We'll be done by Christmas" kind of person - then "We'll be done by graduation time --> We'll be done by next Christmas --> By next summer --> Maybe by the Christmas after next?...". So I feel bad every time I have to reevaluate my dwindling pace and push it back more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
While I'm here... I remembered just lately that a few years back, I'd mused on whether one could make a two-person location-based performance of the Beren and Luthien story in a particular Welsh valley. As it happens, I'm going to be in that area again next week, so if I get a chance I may go see if I can find 'shooting locations' for the songs of the Zong. No actual filming, of course (though I do have relatives of a dramatic bent...), but I might be able to snap some nice photos for a hypothetical movie. ^_^

(Sadly, I think the cave that would have been Nargothrond is now gated off. Nice big cavern, would have filled it with candles for Beren and Finrod to meet... ah well.)
That's neat! It would be nice to see these places, even if just stills. I live in a place with lots of natury places around too now, and I was actually thinking about doing a cosplay / live action thing in some distant future... But for me it's very much still purely hypothetical. Shame about the cave, but it would be nice to see the other places!
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