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Old 10-13-2023, 05:32 PM   #1
Arvegil145
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Pipe Eol the Nando

Is Eol technically a Nando?

Judging from these lines:

Quote:
To the passage "But El... was no Dwarf, but a tall Elf of a high kin of the Teleri" my father wrote on the manuscript A (only) a note beginning with the words "Not in revision" - which probably means that what follows is not in the corrections made to the copies of the typescript ('the revision'). In this note my father was copying a very faint and illegible form of it on the same page, and trying to interpret his own writing; I give it exactly as it stands:

"El should not be one of Thingol's kin, but one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Hithaeglir. But [later] he and a few others of like mood, averse to concourse of people, ... [had] crossed the [Mts] long ago and come to Beleriand."

Against this note he wrote "but the relationship to Thingol would have point", and the date 1971.
- The War of the Jewels, 'Maeglin', 9, p. 322

It does seem to me that Tolkien's last point about Eol's kinship with Thingol being important raises doubts about the validity of his previous statement that Eol was one of the Teleri that refused to cross the Hithaeglir/Misty Mountains (i.e. the folk who later became known as the Nandor).

Nonetheless, I'm not completely convinced that these two ideas are mutually exclusive - since (and I can't remember the exact source) it wasn't unheard of later Elvish immigrants to Beleriand, such as the Nandor and even Avari, becoming (in effect) 'Sindar'.


Of course, even if Eol really was a Nando, this fact alone doesn't invalidate any kinship to Thingol per se, since the Nandor are of course a subgroup of Teleri!


P.S. Before someone inevitably comments about Eol being a Tatyarin Avar: that idea was scrapped altogether.




Anyway, I'd really like some input from people more familiar with the dating/interpretation of the various Eol/Maeglin texts.
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Old 10-14-2023, 10:28 AM   #2
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Eol's heritage may turn upon whether he was ultimately considered close kin of Thingol, in which case he is likely Sindarin, or when he entered Beleriand or turned aside from the journey West), in which case he was likely either Nandorin or one of the Avari. There seems to be no clear final conception about Eol's heritage from Tolkien's perspective.

On the one hand, he was nominally beholden to Thingol and Doriath. There is no specific mention of any other Elf living outside of the Girdle that paid a "fee" to Thingol in exchange for land. On the other hand, he was of an exceedingly dark nature, which, by impression only, seems to be like the Avari in personality. However (on the third hand...), if Tolkien's decision was to place him among those who turned away from the journey West upon reaching the Misty Mountains (as per your quote), then he is likely one of the Nandor.
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Old 10-16-2023, 10:26 AM   #3
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Eol's heritage may turn upon whether he was ultimately considered close kin of Thingol, in which case he is likely Sindarin, or when he entered Beleriand or turned aside from the journey West), in which case he was likely either Nandorin or one of the Avari. There seems to be no clear final conception about Eol's heritage from Tolkien's perspective.

On the one hand, he was nominally beholden to Thingol and Doriath. There is no specific mention of any other Elf living outside of the Girdle that paid a "fee" to Thingol in exchange for land. On the other hand, he was of an exceedingly dark nature, which, by impression only, seems to be like the Avari in personality. However (on the third hand...), if Tolkien's decision was to place him among those who turned away from the journey West upon reaching the Misty Mountains (as per your quote), then he is likely one of the Nandor.
Regarding your first point: I don't think it is by any means contradictory to have Eol as both a Nando and being akin to Thingol - the Teleri were a very large group of people, and we know that Thingol had relatives (I mean, his own younger brother Olwe technically belongs to a different subgroup of the Teleri, i.e. Falmari).


And as to your second point: I don't necessarily see how Eol's terrible ("dark") personality has anything to do with the characterization of the Avari as a whole - yes, they were classified as 'Dark Elves' (Moriquendi), but so were the Sindar and the Nandor; and the 'Dark' part of their names doesn't refer to any moral 'darkness'.
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Old 10-16-2023, 10:58 AM   #4
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El is above all sui generis- and not just in his rather unpleasant personality. His affinity for smithcraft and friendship with the Dwarves are highly unusual for any Teler.

Did not Tolkien somewhere or other suggest that some of the Nandor might have been of Noldorin origin?
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Old 10-16-2023, 11:13 AM   #5
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El is above all sui generis- and not just in his rather unpleasant personality. His affinity for smithcraft and friendship with the Dwarves are highly unusual for any Teler.

Did not Tolkien somewhere or other suggest that some of the Nandor might have been of Noldorin origin?
Yeah, Eol is a really weird character in the context of Tolkien's broader mythology, one way or another.

Heck, even his name (which Tolkien kept 'as is' for over 50 years) and its origins eventually made him just throw up his arms in the air and say 'screw it, sometimes names don't mean anything'.

And as to your last point: well, some of the Silvan Elves in Lorien certainly had Noldorin ancestors, but as to the Nandor in the First Age - I swear I also read something about it somewhere, but just can't remember where!
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Old 10-16-2023, 01:53 PM   #6
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Aha!

It's from the Lhammas and QS '37 (HME V:175, 263):

"The Green-elves, who were called in their own tongue Danas, the followers of Dan... this folk was in the beginning of Noldorin race, but is not counted among the Eldar, nor yet among the Lembi. For they followed Orome at first, but...."

"There [in Ossiriand] dwelt the Danian Elves, who in the beginning were of Gnomish race, but forsook the march from Kuivienen, and came never to Valinor."
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Old 10-17-2023, 03:36 AM   #7
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Aha!

It's from the Lhammas and QS '37 (HME V:175, 263):

"The Green-elves, who were called in their own tongue Danas, the followers of Dan... this folk was in the beginning of Noldorin race, but is not counted among the Eldar, nor yet among the Lembi. For they followed Orome at first, but...."

"There [in Ossiriand] dwelt the Danian Elves, who in the beginning were of Gnomish race, but forsook the march from Kuivienen, and came never to Valinor."
It shows up again in a late (1968) essay:

"The Eldar of Ossiriand, the Green Elves, though wood-dwellers, were of quite different origin, which does not here concern us; they were probably in origin of Noldorin kinship."
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Old 10-17-2023, 12:09 PM   #8
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It still doesn't help us that much with El, though, since the Green-elves turned their backs on technology (also, the special affinity of the Noldor with smithcraft really stemmed from Valinor and exposure to Aule)
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Old 10-18-2023, 08:29 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Tar Elenion View Post
It shows up again in a late (1968) essay:

"The Eldar of Ossiriand, the Green Elves, though wood-dwellers, were of quite different origin, which does not here concern us; they were probably in origin of Noldorin kinship."
NoMe, Silvan Elves and Silvan Elvish
THAT'S IT!!

That's the quote I was looking for...but - that's not the "final" quote I was looking for.

What I've really been trying to ascertain up to this point is this: can a 'Nando' become a 'Sinda'?

Or rather - can any 'immigrant to Beleriand' become a Sinda?
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Old 10-18-2023, 10:38 AM   #10
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Apparently so. Saeros/Orgof had been a Green-elf before the fall of Amon Ereb, but had removed to Doriath and become a member of Thingol's council.
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Old 10-18-2023, 12:34 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Arvegil145 View Post
THAT'S IT!!

That's the quote I was looking for...but - that's not the "final" quote I was looking for.

What I've really been trying to ascertain up to this point is this: can a 'Nando' become a 'Sinda'?

Or rather - can any 'immigrant to Beleriand' become a Sinda?

Try Quendi & Eldar in WotJ:
"But when the Nandor were recognized as kinsfolk of Lindarin origin and speech (as was still recognizable), they were received into the class of Celbin."

"Any individual Avar who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar (it rarely happened) became a Calben;"

"Sindar
Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic Quenya. This was the name given by the Exiled Noldor (see Note 11) to the second largest of the divisions of the Eldar. (Note 16, p. 412) It was applied to all the Elves of Telerin origin that the Noldor found in Beleriand, though it later excluded the Nandor, except those who were the direct subjects of Elwe, or had become merged with his people."
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