The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-03-2024, 08:36 AM   #1
JeyEn
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Jul 2023
Posts: 10
JeyEn has just left Hobbiton.
White Council inconsistency?

Hello! So I stumbled upon this topic while reading about Gandalf seeking the truth about Bilbo's ring.

Someone said how could Gandalf forgot about Saruman's words about Great Rings having a gem. Then I started to search what the White Council talked about in their meetings. And I think I ran into some continuity error.

In 2941 they attacked Dol Guldur. In Silmarillion it is said they talked about Rings of Power and that Saruman said The One is lost to the sea. However since the text about Third Age in Silmarillion feels so strange and is probably heavily edited by Christopher, I am not sure how can I take this as a source.

In 2953 they talked again about Rings of Power. In Appendix B, it is said Saruman talked about the One being lost at the sea for the first time.

However in Council of Elrond, Gandalf said Saruman assured them The One is lost repeatedly.

Is is possible there is an error in Appendix B?

Also -- Gandalf said he half-heeded Saruman's word about gems. Which seems strange, since he (probably) knew about Bilbo's ring and was worried about it. Is there some summary about White Council and what exactly they talked about? To create some timeline.

Thanks!
JeyEn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2024, 09:36 AM   #2
Huinesoron
Overshadowed Eagle
 
Huinesoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,805
Huinesoron is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Huinesoron is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeyEn View Post
In 2941 they attacked Dol Guldur. In Silmarillion it is said they talked about Rings of Power and that Saruman said The One is lost to the sea. However since the text about Third Age in Silmarillion feels so strange and is probably heavily edited by Christopher, I am not sure how can I take this as a source.

In 2953 they talked again about Rings of Power. In Appendix B, it is said Saruman talked about the One being lost at the sea for the first time.

However in Council of Elrond, Gandalf said Saruman assured them The One is lost repeatedly.

Is is possible there is an error in Appendix B?
I don't know of a collection of all sources on the White Council (other than the Tolkien Gateway article), but I think I can help with this one. The two texts don't quite contradict each other:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silm
Into Anduin it fell, and long ago, I deem, it was rolled to the Sea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appendix B
Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea.
In the earlier (Silm) conversation, Saruman says he is sure the Ring fell into Anduin, and he thinks ("deems") that it went out to the Sea. In the later conversation, he says he has confirmed ("discovered") that he was right.

Which is another reason Gandalf didn't immediately go "spooky invisibility Ring must be the One" - the head of his order had claimed there was proof the One was gone, and how could a Ring in the deep ocean somehow wind up under the Misty Mountains? Clearly ridiculous, it must be something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeyEn View Post
Also -- Gandalf said he half-heeded Saruman's word about gems. Which seems strange, since he (probably) knew about Bilbo's ring and was worried about it.
I think the simple answer is that the conversation about gems must have happened at an earlier Council meeting. In the meeting of 2851 they seem to have talked about Rings a lot; it would make sense that when talking about the idea that the One had rolled out to the Sea, Saruman would have mentioned their appearance in passing (possibly just to show off!).

Looking at Gandalf's account, that memory sent him off to Minas Tirith to find the source Saruman used. Which seems odd, actually, because a) Isildur didn't know anything about the other Rings, so couldn't have written that they had gems, and b) both Elrond and Cirdan were present when Isildur slew Sauron. Surely they were a more likely source for "the One had no gem but looked like there was glowing writing at first" than some hypothetical document? Maybe it was just the fact that Gandalf was already close to Minas Tirith that sent him there first.

hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera
Huinesoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2024, 08:44 AM   #3
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annķminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,305
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I think Tolkien here got a little muddled. I've always been bothered by Gandalf's assertion the he knew Bilbo's ring was "clearly" a Great Ring from the moment he got it- because Gandalf could have easily done the math (three hidden, seven and nine accounted for). It would have been better IMO if he had assumed it was a Lesser Ring- until Bilbo's unnatural eternal youth began to show.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnít know, and when he didnít know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:54 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.