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Old 02-08-2001, 01:09 AM   #1
enep
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Ring Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

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Mostly because of the apparent slackness <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> in posting, I've decided to spark a conversation. It will probably languish into oblivion after a few posts; but try and keep it going.

Gollum: What were his overall motives? If he regained the ring, what would he do (I remember him saying something to the effect of &quot;Yesss, we'll make them all pay, Preciousss&quot; or something. But if his motive was domination, power, why did he creep into the Misty Mountains in the first place? If he was running from his family, why didn't he use the ring to control them? Or rather, &quot;make them pay?&quot; If he was weary of the world, why didn't he throw himself away? What was his purpose, his motive? (Not looking from a literary perspective i.e. his purpose in the novel) Please reply. Infact, reply a few times. And establish a strange opinion that we can argue about. Heh heh <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil">

- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 2/8/01 2:14:57 am
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Old 02-08-2001, 01:17 AM   #2
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Re: To Stir Things Up (Gollum's motives)

I think that by the time of the LotR, Gollum was so consumed by the Ring that he didn't have any motives of his own. He may have thought he had, but he didn't.

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Old 02-08-2001, 01:38 AM   #3
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Hmm

But did being consumed by the ring really demolish all of Gollum's thoughts, his desires, his motives? The Witch King, consumed by a lesser ring, still had the same basic wish for power, for control. He commanded the army of Sauron on the Pellenor as if it were his own, and that he wanted to defeat the Gondorians (and others.) Angmar was founded by him and by him alone. Hmm. Z, what do you mean by &quot;he thought he had motives?&quot; Do you mean that he was really controlled by the Ring but thought he was himself? Everyone has motives. Everyone has thoughts; my view is that not even years of wielding the Ring would he have been totally 'hidden', completely 'taken over'. Take Gollum's split personality Slinker, for example. Although Gollum's thoughts/motives <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> were always to betray Sam and Frodo as Slinker stood loyal to Frodo (for example in the Dead Marshes) basically up until the point where he realised that Frodo was going to destroy his Precious.

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Old 02-08-2001, 08:49 AM   #4
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Ya!

&quot;Gollum: What were his overall motives? If he regained the ring, what would he do (I remember him saying something to the effect of &quot;Yesss, we'll make them all pay, Preciousss&quot; or something. But if his motive was domination, power, why did he creep into the Misty Mountains in the first place? If he was running from his family, why didn't he use the ring to control them? Or rather, &quot;make them pay?&quot; If he was weary of the world, why didn't he throw himself away? What was his purpose, his motive? (Not looking from a literary perspective i.e. his purpose in the novel) Please reply. Infact, reply a few times. And establish a strange opinion that we can argue about. Heh heh
- enep&quot;

I think that the Ring would only go with Gollum unless it knew Gollum was going to Sauron, and Gollum wouldn't give up his Preccioousss to Sauron or anybody else. It slipped off Gollum's hand in order to get closer, I think. And if Gollum did somehow get the Ring back, the only power he knows about is him becoming Invisible.

&quot;But did being consumed by the ring really demolish all of Gollum's thoughts, his desires, his motives? The Witch King, consumed by a lesser ring, still had the same basic wish for power, for control. He commanded the army of Sauron on the Pellenor as if it were his own, and that he wanted to defeat the Gondorians (and others.) Angmar was founded by him and by him alone. Hmm. Z, what do you mean by &quot;he thought he had motives?&quot; Do you mean that he was really controlled by the Ring but thought he was himself? Everyone has motives. Everyone has thoughts; my view is that not even years of wielding the Ring would he have been totally 'hidden', completely 'taken over'. Take Gollum's split personality Slinker, for example. Although Gollum's thoughts/motives were always to betray Sam and Frodo as Slinker stood loyal to Frodo (for example in the Dead Marshes) basically up until the point where he realised that Frodo was going to destroy his Precious.
- enep&quot;

I think Gollum was rather primitive in thinking, so he wouldn't have many thoughts to be demolished. Gollum's motives were to get the Ring back and most likely go back into hidding like he was before, and I think he understood the only way to get the Ring back was by being loyal to his promise.

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Old 02-08-2001, 10:25 AM   #5
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re

In the end Gollum was so much controlled by the Ring that he couldn't decide anything himself. think about it, he had had the ring for many lives of his race... i guess that was also the case for the Nazgul, and they were only shadows later on. but they had lesser rings. imagine how fast you would get subdued by such a powerful ring. i think that's why he didn't &quot;throw himself away &quot;... because his desire for the ring was too big. and he didn't control his family because maybe he didn't know what he could do with it by that time.


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Old 02-08-2001, 12:21 PM   #6
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Re: re

What I think Gollum means by &quot;make them all pay&quot; is that when he gets the Ring he is going to kill Sam, Frodo, and Bilbo.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
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Old 02-08-2001, 12:54 PM   #7
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Re: them

I think the 'them' is more general than that, even. Gollum has learned to hate everyone that has ever wronged him (real or imagined) including the hobbits mentioned, Gandalf, Aragorn, The Elves of Mirkwood, Sauron.... everyone and anyone. And Gollum feels that with the Ring he will have the ability to achive his revenge.

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Old 02-08-2001, 02:03 PM   #8
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> The All-Powerful Motive

Fisssh, my precious! Lots and lots of tasty fish!<img src=wink.gif ALT="">

I agree w/the Barrow-Wight, that Gollum wants revenge on everyone. Whether he knows how he'll get it is another question. But he was tormented by Sauron for a long time, it's possible that he learned a bit more about the ring, if nothing else but that if Sauron wanted it, it must be powerful.

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Old 02-09-2001, 01:31 AM   #9
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The All-Powerful Motive

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of the Ring. He hardly dared to breathe, yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he had only to slip it on, and then he would be safe. The advice of Gandalf seemed absurd.<hr></blockquote>
This is Frodo, who is otherwise quite sensible, thinking of putting the Ring on, while a Black Rider is looking for him. He hadn't been carrying the Ring for as long as Gollum had, nor used it as much, and was already influenced by it. That's where I get my idea that Gollum wouldn't have had his own motives (or not very much of them), enep. If such a 'takeover' can happen to Frodo while he's still in the shire, what about Gollum?

BTW: What's this about the board being quiet? There've been heaps of posts today! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-09-2001, 04:51 AM   #10
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Re: Gollum

Yes, hmm. Interesting posts. I do agree that he hated everyone; Sauron secretly, because he was to a point in control of Gollum; Shelob; and everyone else.

Gollum's desire was to be powerful, and to (as mentioned before) to do in all the people that had wronged him. I thought about the ring slipping off Gollum's finger, that the ring sensed he was going nowhere; but Gollum's lust for power was his downfall. But my original question remains.

If, (as shown by the quote from Z <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ) the Ring 'started' on it's 'owner' immediately, then why didn't he take revenge on his family who had beat him then, rather then going into hiding? Note also that when Bilbo let go of the Ring and it passed to Frodo he felt instantly better (It's 11 and I couldn't be bothered getting the quote) so why did Gollum, when he lost his ring, continue his quest for it? Bilbo walked away. Since we know Gollum was a Stoor, of the same descent as Bilbo, couldn't he have done the same, being of the same character? (To an extent)

The obvious answer was his lust for revenge over Bilbo and his trickery - but surely there was something more to Gollum than that. That was all he let on, but there was something deep down that was hidden; a good side, perhaps a peaceful side of Gollum. I always thought of Gollum having not just Slinker and Stinker but a character who wished to be accepted into 'society' instead of being shunned, an outcast. This is shown by his caressing of Bilbo, where Tolkien's tone of describing him changes notably (Still can't be bothered <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> ) and that forms the basis of my belief.

That he hated the Ring, everything it stood for, and just about everything else. The Ring did not drive him to search for it, he did that of his own will. The Ring talking to him on Mount Doom (Um...I'll leave that argument for now) telling him to never lay hands on it again. It did not want Gollum; he was driven by his revenge and lust for power. There we already have two motives.

Long post, and I said lust too many times. Maybe I should sleep. <img src=tired.gif ALT="/I">

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Old 02-09-2001, 04:58 AM   #11
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Re: Gollum

&quot;If, (as shown by the quote from Z ) the Ring 'started' on it's 'owner' immediately, then why didn't he take revenge on his family who had beat him then, rather then going into hiding? Note also that when Bilbo let go of the Ring and it passed to Frodo he felt instantly better (It's 11 and I couldn't be bothered getting the quote) so why did Gollum, when he lost his ring, continue his quest for it? Bilbo walked away. Since we know Gollum was a Stoor, of the same descent as Bilbo, couldn't he have done the same, being of the same character? (To an extent)&quot;

Gollum had the ring much longer than Bilbo did, and i'd like to think that Bilbo was a much more good at heart person than Gollum was even before the ring corrupted him. (him=Gollum)

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Old 02-09-2001, 07:22 AM   #12
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Re: Gollum

And Gollum no longer possessed the Ring. Though he was possessed by the draw of the Ring he was no longer directly controlled by it, as it had a new owner to dominate.

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Old 02-09-2001, 08:13 PM   #13
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Re: Gollum

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If, (as shown by the quote from Z) the Ring 'started' on it's 'owner' immediately, then why didn't he take revenge on his family who had beat him then, rather then going into hiding?<hr></blockquote>
Because the effect of the Ring isn't an immediate 'deletion' of its bearer's will. At that stage Gollum hadn't grown in his motive (or the Ring's motive) to get revenge (well actually, the Ring wanted Gollum to think he was getting revenge, whilst really serving Saron).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Note also that when Bilbo let go of the Ring and it passed to Frodo he felt instantly better (It's 11 and I couldn't be bothered getting the quote) so why did Gollum, when he lost his ring, continue his quest for it?<hr></blockquote>
Because it wasn't the 'losing' of the Ring that stopped its long-lasting power so much as giving it away and saying &quot;I want my own will&quot;. Also, when Frodo met Bilbo at Rivendell, Bilbo seemed pretty keen to see the Ring again. In fact, to Frodo he temporarily seemed to become Gollum-like. (See: Many Meetings, FotR.)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> That he hated the Ring, everything it stood for, and just about everything else. The Ring did not drive him to search for it, he did that of his own will.<hr></blockquote>
Why did he search for something he hated, and yet didn't want to destroy it, if it wasn't still driving him on? Surely the Ring realised that Frodo was planning to destroy it, and having the beaten-down Gollum following around as a back-up plan was a good idea.

NB: When I say &quot;The Ring&quot;, really I mean &quot;Sauron through the Ring&quot;. Perhaps my theories would make more sense that way.

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Old 02-09-2001, 09:09 PM   #14
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Saruman

All good points, Z. However:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Well actually, the Ring wanted Gollum to think he was getting revenge, whilst really serving Saron.<hr></blockquote>
I don't quite understand that. Do you mean that the Ring was telling Gollum that he was getting revenge on his family while he was making his way to the Misty Mountains? Was he feeling sorry for himself so he ran away and let it build up within himself (his hatred build up, that is <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ) while the Ring was telling him that he was getting revenge? If he thought that he was getting revenge, then why didn't he go back? What was his original motive for moving into the Mountains? Was it him feeling sorry for himself, seeking somewhere solitary? Was it hunger? Was it hatred?

I can understand your point on Bilbo; I missed that. But the next one:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Why did he search for something he hated, and yet didn't want to destroy it, if it wasn't still driving him on?&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Remember Saruman's words: &quot;I hate it and you!&quot;

Saruman wished to have the Ring, did he not? He lusted for power, just as Gollum did later on. Then why did he hate the Ring? Because he couldn't get it? Saruman would have never destroyed the Ring; neither would Gollum, because their lust for power and it was too strong. They both searched for the Ring, though, because they still wanted it. As long as they felt the need for power, for revenge, for control, they searched for it endlessly.

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Old 02-10-2001, 12:17 AM   #15
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Re: Saruman

I'm in a lengthy discussion sort of mood, so bear with me. I'll go through this point by point. Feel free to skip this if you've lost interest in the topic by now.

1- Going into Hiding
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Do you mean that the Ring was telling Gollum that he was getting revenge on his family while he was making his way to the Misty Mountains? ... What was his original motive for moving into the Mountains?<hr></blockquote>

Of course not. He wasn't thinking of revenge at that stage.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...and his grandmother, desiring peace, expelled him from the family and turned him out of her hole ... he had almost forgotten about the Sun. Then for the last time he looked up and shook his fist at her ... And he thought suddenly: &quot;It would be cool and shady under those mountains. The Sun could not watch me there...&quot;
-The Shadow of the Past, FotR<hr></blockquote>

2- Revenge
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Was he feeling sorry for himself so he ran away and let it build up within himself (his hatred build up, that is) while the Ring was telling him that he was getting revenge?<hr></blockquote>

A: he didn't run away, he was kicked out.
B: it's quite possible to feel that one is getting revenge in such a situation. Gollum may well have thought (conciously or not) that he'd &quot;make them pay&quot;, and &quot;they'd be sorry in the end&quot;. Same phenomenon as kids holding their breaths till they go blue, to &quot;get revenge&quot; on their parents, except Gollum was hiding from them rather than holding his breath.
C: what makes you think he wanted revenge just at that point? After all, he went into the mountains to get away from the Sun, not to plot revenge. Might he not have wished for 'revenge' until after Bilbo took the Ring?

3- Hatred of the Ring
I think that the only one who didn't hate the Ring in some way was Sauron. Bilbo felt much happier after he gave it away, Frodo felt it as a great weight, Gandalf wanted as little to do with it as possible, for fear it would tempt him and twist him to evil (more on that later). As for Gollum:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He was altogether wretched. He hated the dark, and he hated the light more: he hated everything and the Ring most of all.
-The Shadow of the Past, FotR<hr></blockquote>
Why did he hate the Ring? Quite possibly because:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise might have guessed - as a hobbit might. There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and a light came through it...
-The Shadow of the Past, FotR, my italics<hr></blockquote>
Note how the light came through the little corner of his mind that was still his own. The good part of Gollum was Smeagol, and hated the Ring, the bad part came from the Ring, and loved it. (One can assume that the lust for revenge was part of the bad part of Gollum, and hence from the Ring.)

4- Twisting for Evil
Gandalf didn't want the Ring. Why?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'No!' cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. 'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me, the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly ... I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself...'
-The Shadow of the Past, FotR, my italics<hr></blockquote>
The Ring twists its bearer into doing evil. Even Gandalf feared this for himself.

Sorry about the length of all this. However, there's a lot more than just this to support the idea that the Ring had power over its bearer's will and mind. (I just can't be bothered typing it all.) Replies, enep? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-10-2001, 01:21 AM   #16
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Re: Gollum

Lost interest? Never, I started it. Indeed, replies! Great post, Z. All good points; I realised too late that he was expelled (while looking for Gollum material) and didn't edit. Anyway...I'll go through this bit by bit...

1. What did the Ring have to Corrupt?

It is true that the Ring twists it's bearer into doing evil; however, it only twists the bearer into doing evil if the bearer desires something, if the bearer lusts for something etc. (This we know already) So what was the desire that Gollum had, that was twisted into evil in the first place?

The minute he saw the Ring, he wanted it. At that moment, it was his birthday and he was the average Stoor living on the banks of the Anduin. The feelings for the Ring grew on him, but he did not do any evil until he started killing goblins and fish; and that was only to stay alive. What was his original motive? What did he intend to do with his 'birthday present?' Was the Ring twisting his desire to repent for killing Deagol? Was the Ring twisting him to do evil?

If, Z, 'he wasn't thinking of revenge at that stage' then what did the Ring have to corrupt? That was a little disjointed, but bear with me.

2. The Three (or Four) sides of Gollum

As we already know, there are three or even four sides of Gollum. Slinker and Stinker, Slinker being slightly twisted but almost repentant and Stinker nasty. Then we have Gollum; the primevil side that wishes only for food and to get away from the Yellow and White Faces. Then, as you pointed out, Smeagol (whom I already referred to) who is the side of Gollum deep down at heart who is still an abiding Stoor who tries to be loyal and only wishes to go back to the previous life; is sorry that it ever killed Deagol. (It perhaps be noted that in TT It is said that Smeagol IS Slinker and Gollum IS Stinker) Look at this quote:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee - but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond his friends and kin, and the fields and streams of his youth, and old starved pitiable little thing. <hr></blockquote>
The Two Towers, Book II, The Stairs of Cirith Ungol (my italics)
From this we can deduct numerous things.
1. Interior debate: Possibly between the sides of Gollum; one feeling protective and sorry for Frodo, wishing he had not come. Another, not wanting him to bring the Ring into Mordor. Another, wanting to take the Ring, and the last wanting to get rid of both of them forever.
2. Caress: Smeagol, reminiscing? It seems at this point Smeagol won the Interior debate and wished to almost repent at this point. Proves a point I made earlier about the side of Gollum wishing to go back.
3. Gollum was still a hobbit at heart; this is the light shining through.

Now, you may be wondering where all of that is going. But it backs up a few things: Gollum following the Ring. Gollum has let go of the Ring, and lusts now only for revenge over Bilbo, say. To do this, Stinker/Gollum says he has to get the Ring; but the Ring does not want him. Could he have not obeyed the will of Smeagol and gone back to his home, to live in peace? Or was he too wretched at that point to repent? Was he telling himself that everyone hated him, and that he would never be accepted again? Was that why he went with Stinker/Gollum?

To the point on Gollum thinking that he would 'make them pay' etc. Was this just emphasising the point that Gollum's overall motive (as Slinker/Gollum) was to control, to gain power? Was he just biding his time as the primevil Gollum until he could get revenge?

That was extremely disjointed; but if you can follow...replies, Zoe? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

PS I'll see if I can comment on the rest of your points later, but I don't want to make the post too long...

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Old 02-10-2001, 01:24 AM   #17
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Re: Gollum

*Edit* Posted twice accidentally <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 2/10/01 3:36:33 am
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Old 02-10-2001, 01:44 AM   #18
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Re: Gollum

e - your posts are actually starting to look more and more like the Sil forum's posts. Looooooong and very, very interesting. Way to go! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-10-2001, 01:51 AM   #19
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Hehe

Super! Now I can join the Sil Canon project <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> Nah. I've just got a lot of views on Gollum. He was always the character I found most interesting, the most intriguing. Aside from the winged Balrogs, pointy-eared Galadriel and Aule as Bombadil. *sigh* I've used that joke too much.

Glad to know someone finds my disjointed ramblings interesing <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

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Old 02-10-2001, 01:58 AM   #20
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Re: Hehe

Dear e,
I'm returning the favour over at the Convention thread. I shall not groan either. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">
regards
TLW (god! even I find my name too long!)

ps-ramble on e. Lot of us are interested in knowing what kids think about Tolkien. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-10-2001, 02:06 AM   #21
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Rambles

Dear The Lorien Wanderer <img src=eek.gif ALT=":eek"> <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Sincere Thanks for the return of favour. I shall continue ramblings as long as someone is interested in kiddie Tolkien opinions. <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Regards,
e

PS - Now this thread is going to become another nonsense talking-about-abbreviations-of-names one. *sigh*

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Old 02-10-2001, 03:00 AM   #22
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Re: Gollum

Fear not, this discussion shall not turn into one about nicknames, for I am here to dissect enep's post, and add some more points of my own...

1- Re: What did the Ring have to Corrupt?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It is true that the Ring twists it's bearer into doing evil; however, it only twists the bearer into doing evil if the bearer desires something, if the bearer lusts for something etc.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, and everyone wants something. Sam wants Shire-like peace for the Middle Earth. Gandalf wants to overthrow Sauron. And originally, Gollum just wanted to get away from what he had done in killing Deagol. The Ring corrupted this (IMO) into a desire for 'revenge', although if anything, it was his family who deserved revenge over him.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The minute he saw the Ring, he wanted it ... Was the Ring twisting his desire to repent for killing Deagol? What was the Ring twisting him to do evil for? What did it see in him?<hr></blockquote>
If he knew what it was and what effect it would have over him, would he have wanted it? Perhaps not. But at the time, the Ring wanted him, and saw in him a means of getting away from the river and into the hands of the Dark Lord.

Everyone who sees the Ring wants it, even without using it. Boromir tries to take it from Frodo by force, yet he has never touched it. Although some of this power may only be in the Ring's reputation, it can definitely be said that the Ring has the power to make those who see it want it, or the power it gives. The Ring (or rather, Sauron working through the Ring) wants to corrupt as many as possible, whilst making its way to the Dark Throne.

2- Re:The Three (or Four) sides of Gollum
I agree, there were two, three or four (depending on how you look at it) sides to Gollum. But two of those are the strongest (or one, if you want to combine them to reduce the number of sides): The desire to hide (from what?) and the desire for &quot;revenge&quot;. I say that both of these come from the Ring.

Let us, for a moment, say that the Ring is like a drug. (Not an illegal drug, a medical one.) This Ring Drug is inteded to make those who take it become evil and aid the Dark Lord. However, there is a side effect, which is a desire to run away. Unfortunately, this side effect may not help the first aim, but that's the way medicine goes.

The Ring has created in Gollum this urge for &quot;revenge&quot;, and is twisting his thoughts and actions so that he starts to help Sauron (whether deep down he wants to or not). In doing so, it has also unintentionally stirred up this urge to hide from the Sun and the Moon, and a hatred of everything, including himself and the Ring.

On the other hand, the repentant side(s) of Gollum are part of the original Smeagol. Because the Ring has grown in its power over him, these side(s) are less obvious, and don't show themselves much, although they do come through occaisionally, such as in the quote you gave.

(In my argument, I'm not saying the Ring could control every single aspect of Gollum, just that his own motives (to get repentance) have been 'smothered' by the Ring.)

3- The Nine
The Ringwraiths have never possesed the One Ring (that I know of). Yet, with only the nine rings for mortal men, Sauron has created a group of slaves, who lack their own will in such matters. If this can be done with a group of 'subordinate' rings, what about the one Ring? Surely it has a more powerful effect on its bearers?

4- One Ring to Rule Them All
The One Ring is the Ruling Ring. It has great power. This power most certainly extends to affecting the will of its bearer. Although, as a Hobbit, Gollum must be quite strong-willed, could he really resist the One?

5- Miscellaneous Quotes
In no particular order:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'He hated it and loved it, as he hated and loved himself. He could not get rid of it. He had no will left in the matter.'<hr></blockquote>
Fairly self explanatory.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> '...But I am afraid there is no possible doubt: he had made his slow, sneaking way, step by step, mile by mile, south, down at last to the land of Mordor.'<hr></blockquote>
If he had his own will (and not some 'pseudo-will' imposed by Sauron), why did he go to Mordor? What did he think he would find there?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> '...And he is bound up in the fate of the Ring.'<hr></blockquote>
What, because in his own free will he wants to be? :P

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> '...Why did you let me keep it? Why didn't you make me throw it away, or, or destroy it?'
'Let you? Make you?' said the wizard. 'Haven't you been listening to all that I have said? You are not thinking of what you are saying. But as for throwing it away, that was obviously wrong. These Rings have a way of being found ... for this is the One, and he [Sauron] is exerting all his power to find it or draw it to himself.'<hr></blockquote>
The Ring obeys its maker, and its bearer has no say in the matter. In the case of Gollum the will of the Maker all but took over the will of the bearer.

Apologies again for the huge post.

I wonder if anyone else is reading this, or if it's just E, TLW and me? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-10-2001, 03:47 AM   #23
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The Ring and Gollum

It may be that it is just us. No doubt, people are reading this thread, but fewer are replying. <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> At the moment I am compiling a document of all the Gollum quotes I can find, but in the midst of that I have managed to find time to re-dissect your post and criticise the medical industry <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

1. Regarding the Ring, Gollum and His Desires

Your first point regarding the Ring corrupting Gollum is true; and my opinion was as yours, that it corrupted his wish for repentance and his sorrow into a hatred of his past and a growing desire for revenge. Then we agree on one thing <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

However, regarding 'and everyone wants something' - I hate to bring it up, but Tom Bombadil does not. The Ring only has power over those that want something, that we also agree on. Bombadil was not affected as he did not desire anything (this has already been discussed - I'll leave it here) Using your Misc. quote, Z:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;He hated it and loved it, as he hated and lovesd himself. He could not get rid of it. He had no will left in the matter.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Does this mean that it had eaten away all of his desires, all of his motives? If so, my question is ended. However, I do not think this was the case.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;...and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Another quote to back up the statement previously, that Gollum was nothing but a useless slave, but not yet a wraith (he still had a physical form and a mind of his own.)

From this we conclude:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;It could make no further use of him: (Gollum) he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his dep pool again.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
That the Ring saw that Gollum was not as evil as it first thought (looking from the perspective that the Ring is it's own, but more on that later) and therefore it left him, after devouring him to the point where even with his own will his desire for revenge, lust for power, wish for repentance and acceptance, and hatred of absolutely everything (which I gather we also agree on) led him towards the Ring, despite it shunning him. That's one question answered.

As to Gollum going towards Mordor - The Ring is an object in itself. As an object, it is essentially the embodiment of the Will of Sauron, and he put a lot of his power into it. Hence, I do not think that you are true in saying the Ring was &quot;Sauron working through the Ring&quot; But rather itself, with a mind, a voice etc. that was bound to Sauron.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;...when it's master was awake once omre, and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
This raises a separate issue...'dark thought' could perhaps refer to a sort of 'call for the Ring' by Sauron.

I'm going off topic. Gollum knows (IMO) that Sauron is the Ring's master, and thinks that perhaps the Ring has made it's way towards Mordor, dirty Baggins took it there. That and a 'dark thought' from Sauron - Gollum may have been summoned. He therefore goes to Mordor, and to answer your question - He thought he would find the Ring there.

2. Regarding the Sides of Gollum and the Wierd, Whacked-Out Ring Drug

I love the analogy: Ring - A Medical Drug, Z. It does actually make things a lot clearer...

Re: Sides of Gollum. There were definitely the two sides that you mentioned, Z: The desire to hide, and the desire for revenge - which I would classify as the Primevil Gollum and Stinker sides of the story; but I shall leave Gollum-as-a-schizo out this time. These most definitely came from the Ring; although the desire to hide could be affected by many things. His hatred of the world, and the Two Faces; his hatred of his past; his hatred of himself; escape from Sauron; escape from the Ringwraiths, and his desire to be away from it all and to forget the Ring, wishing he had never found it and never murdered Deagol (The Smeagol/Good side.)

I agree that the Ring, as a 'Drug' was supposed to bend the bearer's will towards Mordor, towards Sauron, to become a servant. (Another possibly reason as to Gollum's arrival in Mordor) I also heartily agree with your theory of The Ring unintentinally awaking fears/hatred of the Faces and just about everything, and the Drug coming into action by bending him towards Sauron. Indeed, the foundations of the desire for revenge were his repentance/sorrow issues already discussed, and these were bought unto by the Ring and fed until they grew into a wrath.

I agree with your point about the repentant/Smeagol side being 'smothered;' and also with the argument that it has 'smothered' his motives for repentance. As it is an evil work and works evil (whoa) it saw in him that he could not forever be a repentant Stoor citizen; and it shunned those motives, or depending on what way you look at it, worked on them; until he (almost) forgot about everything that had happened, and was 'blinded' by lusts for revenge, hatred etc.

3. Regarding the Ringwraiths

Very good point. However: the 'subordinate' rings were given to Men as Men have a lesser will than even that of Hobbits (or Stoors, for that matter) and were easier to corrupt (this we know from many different sources) therefore they (within a short period of time) had little or no will (it had been eaten/corrupted by the Nine, just as the One did to Gollum (see above)) and were drawn to Mordor a lot faster than Gollum had, or any other servant of Sauron.

Another note on this: After Sauron was cast into the sea during the Downfall of Numenor, the Ringwraiths 'passed into shadows' as said in App. B. However, soon after in T.A. The Witch-King founded Angmar. He then made war to Arthedain for some time - this showed that he still had some of his own evil will within him, perhaps because he had been evil before gaining one of the Nine, and this evil was simply 'enhanced' by the One.

4. Regarding the One Ring and Resistance

Indeed, you are correct. Resistance against the One Ring was futile, unless one could get rid of it (as did Bilbo) relatively quickly, and the Ring had not had enough time to 'eat away' at the will of the bearer. Gollum could not resist, but he was stronger than the Nine, and at least kept his physical form and was never truly corrupted to the point where he was on a whim. In short, my answer is no, Gollum could not resist it.

I agree on the final Misc. point; the Master did (basically) take over Gollum.

Double apologies for what I think is an even bigger post; but I hope that you will find something to critique me on <img src=wink.gif ALT="">


- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 2/10/01 4:50:18 am
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Old 02-10-2001, 04:11 AM   #24
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Re: The Ring and Gollum

A very short post:

So basically, you're saying that the Ring 'awoke' an evil side in Gollum, and Gollum still had his own will and motives? (I'm saying that Gollum didn't have much evil in him to start with, and the Ring took over his will.)

Just to make sure we haven't started to agree without realising it... <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-10-2001, 04:16 AM   #25
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Re: Gollum

I am sort of combining those two ideas, Z. I'm saying that Gollum didn't have much evil in him to begin with, but when he ran away the Ring 'awoke' an evil side in him by shunning the repentant/Smeagol side and focusing on corrupting Gollum's new borne hatred of the Sun and his sorrow.

He kept his will, but at the back of his mind; it was clouded over.

We haven't quite agreed yet <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-10-2001, 04:19 AM   #26
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Re: Gollum

We're getting closer to an agreement though. I think that Gollum did have a Smeagol side, but so very few of his actions were dicated by that side that it would be reasonable to say his will was imposed by the Ring and Sauron.

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Old 02-10-2001, 08:43 AM   #27
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Re: Gollum

Hmmm...let me see if I've got what both of you are basically saying. Let us suppose Smeagol was a rainbow that had black in place of violet. Now when he saw the Ring, the black bit in Smeagol rainbow covered most of the rest of the colours. And after he had posessed the Ring for a while only a a teeny-weeny bit of red could be seen at the end. At times even the red was covered by black.
Lord, I sound like an artist. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-10-2001, 09:03 AM   #28
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Re: Gollum

You are not alone, I am here with my two cents to prevent an inbreeding of ideas. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> Whether my two cents will cause peace or war, I cannot say:

1. Twisted desires
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He was interested in roots and beginnings; he dived into deep pools; he burrowed under trees and growing plants; he tunnelled into green mounds; and he ceased to look up at the hill-tops, or the leavess on trees, or the flowers opening in the air: his head and his eyes were downward.<hr></blockquote>
This was before he ever saw the ring. When the Ring began to possess him, it turned his love of deep, dark secrets into an obsession, a hatred of the light. There was no conscious desire for revenge at this point, just a twisting of his original inclinations.

2. Abandonment
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> That the Ring saw that Gollum was not as evil as it first thought (looking from the perspective that the Ring is it's own, but more on that later) and therefore it left him,<hr></blockquote>
I don't think that the Ring was looking for someone particularly evil, as it would be able to twist anyone to its will, it just wanted to get out of the river at that point. It probably would have been just as happy with Dagol as Smagol, but the &quot;aura of desire,&quot; if you will, was already working on Smagol. It left Gollum because Sauron was turning his will to call his Ring and his power back, and Gollum sure wasn't going to leave the caves anytime soon.

3. Why did he go to Mordor?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there. The Ring of the Enemy would leave its mark, too, leave him open to summons. And all folk were whispering then of the new Shadow in the South, and its hatred of the West. There were his fine new friends, who would help him in his revenge!<hr></blockquote>
'Nuff said.

4. Revenge
I don't think the desire for revenge was really awakened until the Ring was &quot;stolen&quot; from him by Bilbo. And, of course, once he started on the quest for revenge, plenty more objects to be revenged upon would appear.

5. The Ring as a Drug
If it's not illegal, it should be.
It's street name is Power, right? Highly addictive, that.

-kqy (I can abbreviate my name and it's still the same! Sorry, couldn't help myself.)<img src=smile.gif ALT="">


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Old 02-10-2001, 09:13 AM   #29
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

Does anyone else have the inclination to use &quot;he&quot; instead of &quot;it&quot; when referring to the Ring?

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Old 02-10-2001, 12:10 PM   #30
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)

Maybe when the ring was forged along with some of Sauron's powers came some of his emotions and feelings. Maybe that is why Gollum is so psychotic.

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Old 02-10-2001, 04:28 PM   #31
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Re: Gollum and the Ring

Ok. I can handle the Ring having thoughts and cunning, but emotions? Like when Sauron was thrown into the ocean it cried? <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> I like referring to the Ring as it, it could be a she for all we know <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

TLW, that Rainbow analogy is almost better than the Drug at illustrating a few points. Except that I take it from the perspective that the Black part was enlarged, almost 'fed' too the point where it almost completely covered the Red/Smeagol. The Ring worked on the 'evil' side of Gollum until it filled his mind completely.

KQY <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> Some good points. I'll see if I can make a few of my own...

1. Regarding Gollum's beginnings

I too noticed that paragraph, KQY, but took little heed of it until now. The Ring did indeed twist his love of deep and dark places into an obsession; and I agree that there was no thought of revenge until the Ring twisted his wishes of repentance, remorse and sorrow for killing Deagol (and hatred of the Faces etc.)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;It would be cool and shady under those mountains. The Sun could not watch me there. The roots of those mountains must be roots indeed; there must be great secrets buried there which have not been discovered since the beginning.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
This emphasises his love for deep and dark places; 'there must be great secrets buried there' Clearly, Gollum was fascinated by the mountains. (Along with wanting to get away from the Faces, his two prime motives for sheltering there.)Btw, excuse me if someone has already used that quote.

Jumping ahead now, though. To fuel his hatred and motives for revenge would be his shunning by his kindred and his turning into a thief, an ankle-biter;
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;He was very pleased with his discovery and he concealed it; and he used it to find out secrets, and he put his knowledge to crooked and malicious uses. He became sharp-eyed and keen-eared for all that was hurtful. The ring had given him power according to his stature. It is not to be wondered at that he became very unpopular and was shunned (when visible) by all his relations. They kicked him, and he bit their feet. He took to thieving...and (they) told him to go far away.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
This says a few things. To back up what you said, KQY, 'find out secrets;' Doing what he loved best. Gollum used the power of the Ring that had been given to him 'according to his stature' (Clearly the Ring saw something in him to give him power) to find out secrets and pry into things.

'Became very unpopular and was shunned.' One of the later events that caused his hatred and lust for revenge/power to grow, on top of his repentance/sorrow issues etc. 'He took to thieving,' Gollum had not enough power to do any real harm; so he stole things while he let hatred build up inside him. 'Told him to go far away.' Gollum realises that he may never be accepted again once they expel him; this just helps the growth of his 'black' side, or doubles the effect of the 'drug.'

2. On the Ring finding/abandoning Gollum

Very good point KQY; The Ring's prime motive was to get out of the River and 'return to it's Master' I think it says. However, The Ring gave Gollum power 'according to his stature;' and it must have sensed something in him. To gain power from the Ring one had to wish for some sort of power, have a motive; therefore Gollum had to. This was probably again his wish for repentance for killing Deagol which I have used enough...who knows. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

The Ring probably would have been as happy with Deagol; but the Ring seems to have an impact on fate - Gandalf says to Frodo 'Bilbo was meant to find the Ring etc.' and my theory is that Smeagol was meant to get the Ring of Deagol; or maybe not so. I agree with your point on the Ring leaving Gollum with the Rise of Sauron.

Revenge was not necessarily awaken at the point when Bilbo stole the Ring; that was just fueling the fire.

I've said enough; Maybe I'll try to summarise all these points.

Save us if one more person posts about abbreviations. I think I'll tear my hair out. <img src=roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

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Old 02-10-2001, 05:10 PM   #32
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Re: Gollum and the Ring

E the bald, huh? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

TLW: I like the analogy. It fits with what I'm saying. By the time Bilbo found the Ring, Gollum was completely taken over by the black part - except I don't think the black was really him. The Ring may have taken advantage of Gollum's 'dark side', but the growth in it came directly from the Ring, not through Gollum.

Gollum finds Ring. Ring makes Gollum evil. Ring destroys Gollum's free will, as he has been overtaken by evil. Gollum goes mad. (Well, pretty much, my preciousssss. Nice juicy fisssshesss... Nasssty hobbitssssss...)

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Old 02-10-2001, 06:29 PM   #33
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BALD?

Bald? <img src=eek.gif ALT=":eek"> No-one mentioned bald. I'll just rip a bit out. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

I still think that the Ring rather expanded the already-present 'black' in Gollum until it shrouded over the rest...so the growth did come from the Ring, but not directly as such. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

(Yesss. Bagginsss, dirty hobbitssss, take Preciousssss...)

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Old 02-10-2001, 07:36 PM   #34
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Oh sorry

I didn't mean emotions necessarily, I mean his Personality and some of his Thoughts maybe.

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Old 02-10-2001, 08:33 PM   #35
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Re: Oh sorry

I've never thought of the Ring as having its own thoughts. It was a tool of Sauron. When I say &quot;the Ring did such and such&quot; I mean that Sauron through the Ring did it. But that's only my opinion.

E- You could always go punk, and pull all the hair out from one side of your head but not the other... :P

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Old 02-10-2001, 09:31 PM   #36
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Re: Oh sorry

Well, I always thought that everyone(except Tom)has that dark side to them. What the Ring did was basically feed Gollum's dark desires till his original personality almost disappeared completely. And all his evil qualities became magnified whereas at first they were the notmal everyday faults everyone has.


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Old 02-10-2001, 09:52 PM   #37
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The Pet of Sauron

MWA HA HA! E the punk. I like it. <img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin">

Exactly, TLW! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=""> That's what I'm trying to say. The Ring fed his evil desires until they shrouded out his own wills, motives and personality (to an extent.)

The Ring I always thought of something in it's own; It had it's own thoughts, but these thoughts were pertaining too, or governed, by Sauron as he was the Ring's master. Like it was his pet. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> No, Shelob was his pet. An ugly, evil pet.



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Old 02-11-2001, 12:15 AM   #38
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Re: The Pet of Sauron

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Ring fed his evil desires until they shrouded out his own wills, motives and personality (to an extent.)<hr></blockquote>
That's what I've been saying all along! You mean we've had this debate for nothing?! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">
Perhaps we'll have to write an article about Gollum and the Ring. Except it would probably end up as 10 articles...

E: so does your abbrev. name change to ETP (Enep the Punk)? <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil">

Finally, wasn't Shelob where she was simply because Sauron couldn't move her without a lot of fuss, so while she didn't do him any harm, he couldn't be bothered?



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Old 02-11-2001, 01:04 AM   #39
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Re: Everything

Z: I was considering writing an article already. Excellent idea...just got to figure out what we agree on <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b"> Maybe you should write one and I'll write one, and they'll end up practically the same. Hmm. <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/">

The debate was more on what caused Gollum to become evil, the effects of the Ring on him and others, his mind/personality/motives/thoughts and his extremely unique case of ME Schizophrenia <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> Sort of a character study.

ENP? Yes, ETE, Enep the Evil. My Gang and I shall take over everything! Including the Barrowdowns! And we must all tear out our hair on one side of our head <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Re: Shelob: Yes, she was. Sauron always referred to Her as 'his pet' however. Mearly a Sauronic joke <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil">

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Old 02-11-2001, 02:59 AM   #40
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Re: Everything

Or we could do a joint article... I dunno.

As for Shelob being Sauron's pet, do you think that might have been because Sauron didn't want to admit that he couldn't control her?

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