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Old 05-04-2001, 05:28 AM   #1
Telchar
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Ring Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

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eneb and are discussing whether or not Beleriand was a part of Middle Earth!

eneb says no, but I allways thought that Beleriand before its destruction was part of Middle Earth like say Eriador or Rhovanion??

Can anybody comment please?

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Old 05-04-2001, 05:46 AM   #2
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Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

Beleriand was part of Middle Earth. On the LoTR maps, Beleriand would have extended north and west from where Lindon appears if Beleriand had not been destroyed in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age.

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were kindled clear, and waxing bright
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Old 05-04-2001, 05:48 AM   #3
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Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

I would say that Beleriand was in Middle Earth before it was destroyed. In my opinion Middle Earth refers to the continent at large and the specific form of it at any one time is not as relevent. After all, if a large earthquake were to take out San Francisco, or even the whole west coast, the continent would remain North America. (Yes, even if mountains sprung up and whole new geological features appeared).

-*-The X Phial-*- "Yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth!"</p>
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Old 05-04-2001, 06:09 AM   #4
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Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

I agree! I actually considered all landmass besides Aman to be included in Middle Earth. Like in Nordic Mythology, where we have &quot;Midgård&quot; the land of Men and Asgård the land of the Gods and Udgård which was the home of &quot;Jätter&quot; or evil giants if you like - the latter have no resemblence to anything in Tolkiens works, but Tolkien was very much inspired by Nordic Mythology, and the name and conception of Middle Earth - I think - was inspired by &quot;Midgård&quot;.

Cheers Telchar

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Old 05-04-2001, 10:20 AM   #5
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Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

The silmarillion seems crystal clear on this. Beleriand was part of Middle earth. For example:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And since the sea was there narrow, steering east and somewhat south he passed over without loss, and first of all the Noldor set foot once more upon the shores of Middle-earth; and the landing of Fëanor was at the mouth of the firth which was called Drengist and ran into Dor-lómin.<hr></blockquote>

Middle earth was, it seems, a general term for all the land other than Aman.


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Old 05-05-2001, 05:08 PM   #6
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Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

I always considered Beleriand the northwestern-most part of ME. And when it sank, then that distinction moved inland a bit, further east.

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Old 05-07-2001, 12:25 AM   #7
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Beleriand - a part of Middle Earth???

I agree: Beleriand was part and parcel of ME.

This triggers another question, though: ME lay in between Valinor in the West and ..... in the East! What has to be filled in?

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Old 05-08-2001, 12:33 AM   #8
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Also wondered....

even I've been wondering about that. Maybe I didn't pay too much attention to the silm during the last reading but what does lie in the east?

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Old 05-08-2001, 10:47 AM   #9
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Also wondered....

I have incidentally thought of that, too, just lately. If I remember correctly, the Professor explained it somewhere...

Letter #183, to W.H. Auden:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd &gt; middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumené, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell).<hr></blockquote>

Letter #211 picks exactly this thought up again:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> [...] middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern imagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South.<hr></blockquote>

'I heed no call of clamant bell that rings / Iron-tongued in the towers of earthly kings. / Here on the stones and trees there lies a spell / Of unforgotten loss, of memory more blest / Than mortal wealth...'</p>
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Old 05-09-2001, 02:35 AM   #10
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wel...

It looks like I'm beaten. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

My point was that Beleleriand could be compared, for example, to modern day Europe - it is on the same landmass as Asia, and yet is considered a different continent, divided at the Ural Mountains (sp?) But it seems that has proven rather invalid, so I'll stop there <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

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Old 05-09-2001, 04:07 AM   #11
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Re: wel...

actually, e, I think the division between &quot;Europe&quot; and &quot;Asia&quot; is more political and historic, than geographic.

(But, eneb??)

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Old 05-10-2001, 12:08 AM   #12
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hmm

You don't have to rub it in too much, Z <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

hehe, I'll let it pass...but beware to all those (others) who get my name wrong! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

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