Oh no she didn't! Oh yes she did!

[Lush]

I have been wondering whether or not there is a certain <I>brand</I> of dislike for Liv Tyler on this board that stems from her past movie career and the roles she had previously chosen. <P>Liv Tyler has appeared nude and nearly nude in several of her films, and her characters were not always of the most restrained sort. <P>Is there something about the fact that you have seen Liv Tyler's more revealing scenes or heard about them that doesn't jive with you when you think of her in terms of Arwen?<P>Or, on the other hand, is there something about the fact that Liv Tyler is a lovely human specimen (this is largely a matter of taste, but a great deal of people do find her attractive, myself among them) that makes her endearing?<P>Let me know.<p>[ September 21, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Sauron 666]

the main reason for my dislike of Liv Tyler is because she's one of those people who use the fact that they, out of coincindence really, are related to a celebrity to get ahead. The fact she's a poor actress is only secondary to me.

[Niluial]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The main reason for my dislike of Liv Tyler is because she's one of those people who use the fact that they, out of coincidence really, are related to a celebrity to get ahead. The fact she's a poor actress is only secondary to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I feel the same! But she is good looking (only with make up on… but aren’t they all?) but she cant really act. Oh well each to his own…<P>~ Niluial

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Well, being female...<P>Anyway, I think she did a good job of Arwen, as much as I disliked what she was made to do...that Arwen voice is a hell of a lot more pleasant on the ears than her normal one! I noticed she used it in her Givenchy advert. She looks pretty good in that. (Do Americans have this ad? Basically she's the new face of Givenchy).<P>Talking of actresses without make-up, have you seen Christina Aguilera in he ad? Ok, so that's a singer...but man, that was scary.

[HCIsland]

I haven't a problem with her. I think she's doing a decent job. As for her personally or her past films, I couldn't give a rat's behind about that.<P>I think she's become a bit of a scapegoat for changes that Jackson has introduced that some people have a hard time accepting.<P>H.C.

[Imladris]

I don't like Liv because I don't think she portrayed Arwen like Tolkien portrayed her (whether if this is a director's problem or script writer's problem, I don't know.) Besides, I don't think she's very pretty (well, in some shots she is). Tolkien described her very well...I don't remember the exact words, but I do know that Liv doesn't fit in it. About her other films, I haven't seen them.

[Meela]

Liv is a good actress in my opinion. And we shouldn't give her grief because PJ gave her a role that some people aren't happy with. She didn't like the warrior princess or whatever aspect of it, so I give her credit for at least wanting the right sort of Arwen. (Apologies if this is incorrect. I'm just assuming that I remembered the interview correctly.)

[Gorwingel]

I don't mind her. I additionally I don't really care about what her prior film roles were, I never saw any of them. The only time I had ever seen her on screen before LOTR was in the Aerosmith video "Crazy", and that performance did not bother me at all.<P>I have to agree with H.C. because I do think that she is a scapegoat for the criticisms to the changes in the films. Because of all the characters in the books, her character went through the largest change, though it could have been worst.

[QuickSlash]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think she's become a bit of a scapegoat for changes that Jackson has introduced that some people have a hard time accepting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with that entirely. I think she did a wonderful job as Arwen, though I don't entirely agree with Arwen's role. But I'm not one of the people who think that PJ interpreted it all wrong. There's going to be disagreements, which people should understand. They also shouldn't take out their anger on one character.

[Finwe]

Just because PJ made a bunch of changes is no reason to blame Liv. I mean honestly people, we're acting like a bunch of prejudiced, uptight Puritans. So what if Liv appeared in a few nude or nearly-nude roles? More power to her! Would any of us have consented to take off our clothes in front of the camera? No. We wouldn't. Just because she is a strong, bold woman, who is comfortable with her sexuality, is no reason to go all Puritan on her. I thought we were past that stage where you were considered a slut for showing off your ankles! If you want to blame someone, blame PJ. Don't blame Liv, who didn't even agree with those changes. It's not as if she could do anything about them. She wasn't the director. She could have been booted off the film for arguing about her role. In fact, most of the time, actors and actresses clamor for greater roles, and here, Liv was actually trying to get a smaller one. I do believe that she is a woman of great integrity, even if some of her movie roles seem to be otherwise, and even so, since when did movie roles define a person's character? I really think we should stop harping about changes and realize what a beautiful movie PJ has made, and be grateful that he is going by the book. <P>*slinks off before she explodes with righteous indignation* <P><BR>P.S. I'm sorry if my post offended anyone. This is just one of my pet peeves.

[Niluial]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> that Arwen voice is a hell of a lot more pleasant on the ears than her normal one! I noticed she used it in her Givenchy advert. She looks pretty good in that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yea I agree she has a nice voice!<P>If anyone wants to see the add go to <A HREF="http://www.givenchy.com/default.php" TARGET=_blank>Givenchy Add</A>

[arianrod]

I don't know exactly what it is I don't like about her, but there's deffinatly something. Part of me just thinks she's TOO feminine as a person. Not only does that not fit my view of Arwen, but it also just downright annoys the hell out of me. I've always been a Tom-boyish kinda girl mainly because I can't stomach the highly made up, perfectly prepped girls I've met. So maybe I'm just steryotyping her and grudging her unjustly, but tough luck; she doesn't exactly float my oyster.

[Liriodendron]

I like looking at her! I love her "lush" voluptuous looks, the pale winter skin with deep jewel tone lips and dark hair. Very nice! I have only seen her in "That Thing You Do" and enjoyed looking at her there also. I always assumed the "dislike" was because of the non book Arwen role she was given, and a little cattiness thrown in for fun. I like the fact that they used a very beautiful (but not trendy beauty) woman, but a little more age wouldn't have bothered me. The shots where the Fellowship is leaving Rivendell make her look a little too young. Still, I am happy with her. Of course, I am looking forward to seeing how beautiful she looks, and fills out the character of Arwen in RoTK! <P>The story of her famous father was a media bonanza! I don't blame her for that. She can't help it! I always thought her mother (Bebe Buell) was gorgeous back in the early seventies. It's nice to see her daughter is so lovely also! With Steven Tyler as a dad, well...he's about as ugly as Mick Jagger! Mick and Jerri Hall's daughter is a model also...amazing! <p>[ September 21, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[Knight of Gondor]

Hello, I believe Lush is probably referring primarily to my attitude towards Liv Tyler, so let me break this down for y'all.<P>I think it's very demeaning for a woman - any woman - to go to Hollywood and take off her clothes for an audience. And it sort of disgusts me that Liv Tyler, the person chosen to play our lovely Elven princess is also the one who has made so many different movies wherein she acts out all sorts of sexual scenes. Be assured I've never seen any of them, but I read reviews.<P>One of the many concepts I love in LotR is the concept of honor. And any woman should feel dishonored to be taking part in being a guy's mental plaything.<P>To bring balance to it, I'm not quite that happy that Ian McKellen is gay, or that Elijah Wood swears like a sailer. But these are the guys that have come together to bring our favorite (and only) Tolkien trilogy to life. They do a darn good job of it, I just wish that some of the actors and actresses that are chosen would be a little more of something to look up to, something of a role model for kids.<P>I hope my opinion isn't too off-topic, and doesn't offend too many of you. There are a few other issues with Arwen that some of us have - such as not thinking that someone else might possibly have been better for Arwen, because Liv Tyler really ISN'T that pretty when it comes down to it. (Mirinda Otto is prettier...) That whole thing with being interchanged for Glorfindal, and possibly going to Helm's Deep before the cut that was obviously not her fault, and I don't blame her for that.<P>Anyway, that's my two (million) cents worth.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And it sort of disgusts me that Liv Tyler, the person chosen to play our lovely Elven princess is also the one who has made so many different movies wherein she acts out all sorts of sexual scenes. Be assured I've never seen any of them, but I read reviews.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But these are the guys that have come together to bring our favorite (and only) Tolkien trilogy to life. They do a darn good job of it, I just wish that some of the actors and actresses that are chosen would be a little more of something to look up to, something of a role model for kids.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><B>Knight of Gondor</B>, it does seem that, from the disparity in the tone between these two statements, that there is somewhat of a bias in your attitude towards the male vs. the female members of the cast, at least on the surface it appears so. Forgive me if I misunderstand. Sir Ian and Elijah do a good job, despite their personal flaws, while Liv is to be looked down upon for hers...hmmmm...<P>Personally, I do not look down on any of them and I rather admire Sir Ian for his forthrightness and candor concerning his preferences. Much better than hiding them behind Hollywood doubletalk, IMO. <P>And another IMO in this area, I do not believe a woman appearing in a sexual scene for an audience is demeaning unless SHE feels demeaned by it. To some women, it is a show of power, rather than something shameful to be hidden in the closet and only brought out in back rooms for the furtive males to enjoy without their having to admit it in mixed company. <P>Forgive the ranting tone, but, to get back on topic, I believe Liv Tyler to be a beautiful woman, strikingly so, and, although I disagreed with her replacing Glorfindel at the Ford, I understand the reason for it and do not fault her for the directing choice. <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta

[Evisse the Blue]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>To bring balance to it, I'm not quite that happy that Ian McKellen is gay, or that Elijah Wood swears like a sailer. But these are the guys that have come together to bring our favorite (and only) Tolkien trilogy to life. They do a darn good job of it, I just wish that some of the actors and actresses that are chosen would be a little more of something to look up to, something of a role model for kids. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Whoa! This sounds like the Robert Powell-bashing for being a drunk or whatever, so he's unsuitable to play Jesus. Character does not equal actor.The only virtue I expect of actors is their talent (and all the LOTR actors happily have plenty of that; I do not care about their other vices. <BR>That goes for Liv as well as the others. When I see her on screen, I see Arwen, I do not think of her 'flaws', whatever those may be. She is a beautiful woman, and whatever you think of her performance in other films,you have to admit that in this one she shone. On the other hand, I am not happy at all with her expanded role, but this can't be helped. I'm just happy she was played with such grace and loveliness.

[Bêthberry]

Well, I haven't seen as much of her as you have, Lush. Judging solely on TTT, I don't think she fakes it well at all.<P>The alleged love scenes with Aragorn were devoid of passion, intensity, any chemistry.

[Mister Underhill]

My own misgivings about Liv as Arwen were always based on the fact that she struck me, both in past performances and in the few interviews that I had seen with her, as a callow young girl. Arwen is nearly 3000 years old; you expect her to have commensurate presence, dignity, and wisdom. You want to have someone in the role who can project a little life wisdom and the feeling that she’s been around the block a time or two, you know? An actress that is a woman rather than a girl. <P>I’ll be the first to say that I thought she did an okay job in FotR, but on the other hand, scenes of Arwen crying into her pillow in TTT were exactly the sort of thing that I feared might happen. You can’t put the blame all on her, certainly – those scenes between Arwen and Elrond were poorly conceived, written, and executed in my opinion – but an actress with a bit more maturity might have fought those scenes or at least been able to bring them off more convincingly. Ingrid Bergman was 27 when she did <I>Casablanca</I>, only a few years older than Liv when she did LotR, but when she cries, she’s a <I>woman</I>. <P>To show I’m not just picking on Liv, I have similar problems with Elijah as Frodo.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Knight of Gondor,<P> You say that some members of the cast (I presume you are including Ian McKellan in this list) should try to be better role models for the kids. I happen to think that Ian McKellan is a fantastic role model for the kids. He sees no need to be ashamed of who he is, despite the opinions of some small-minded people out there.<P>As for Liv Tyler, I think she looks fantastic in the films and her voice is very good. She is not, however, a great (or even a very good) actor, and I think she was probably recruited to add a bit of star power to the cast.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

To be quite honest I don't really think about Miss Tyler at all. Whether or not she can portray Arwen properly will never be put to the test, since she isn't required to play her in the New Line films; and her prior acting career is a matter of supreme indifference to me. I don't know enough about her to make any personal judgements, and I was too busy being annoyed by other elements of the films to be particularly troubled by her acting. As for becoming successful because of her relatives, a name can only get one so far in the world. Whatever I may dislike about Peter Jackson's films, I don't think that he'd have chosen someone for such an important part solely on the basis of their being related to a member of Aerosmith.<P>I'll go further and throw in my lot with the people who value actors on talent alone. I wouldn't care if Jackson's entire cast had come to him straight from filming pornography, since all I expect of actors is that they can act. Since the whole basis of acting lies in pretending to be what one is not, I fail to see why an actor's previous roles or private life should be considered even vaguely relevant to their portrayal of an unrelated character. All of my complaints about the films to date can be attributed solely to the script, not to the director and certainly not to the actors. I disliked the Arwen of the films because she was a Hollywood archetype rather than the character that Tolkien portrayed. I don't think that there could be a better reason than that.

[Faramir Fan]

I am just curious as to why you are dissapointed that Ian McKellan as an openly gay man was cast.<P>Personally I think it is wonderful. As a parent of an 11 year old son, who knows "the actor who plays Gandalf" is gay, I find it facinating to see how his reaction to it is so different than mine would have been at that age. I probably would have giggled or made a face. But times have changed and it can be seen in the opinions in our youth. The fact that Ian McKellan is gay means nothing to him...and I think that is pretty cool.<P>As far as Liv and Elijah, what they do in real life or have done in other movies means very little to me, I only care about how they portray their respective characters...

[elf-girl-63]

I have no problem with Liv Tyler- I think she suits the character of Arwen and portrays her well. What happens with Glorfindel shouldn't be held against her- the films are to be films in their own right as well as adaptations of the books. If Glorfindel had been used, it would've taken up time and is (quite frankly, sorry to offend anyone) unnecessary. The description Tolkien writes can't be used in a film- there is only dialogue and pictures. Therefore when he writes that Frodo sees Arwen at the feast and explains who she is, one can't do that in a film as no one is narrating (except Galadriel at the beginning but that is necessary) so she must be shown in another way and in my opinion PJ chose the right idea.<P>Sorry to offend anyone...<P>Oh yeah: what is wrong with anyone being gay etc? That shows a closed mind- the actors/actresses do their job and do it well. I am sure when you sit and watch the films you do not think 'He's so obviously gay. He can't possibly play Gandalf.' Or 'He swears too much- not right for Frodo' or even 'A woman who plays Arwen shouldn't have appeared nude previously. It just ain't right.'<P>Now, come on. I don't believe that for a moment.<p>[ September 22, 2003: Message edited by: elf-girl-63 ]

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Now I <I>think</I> that is 12 for, and 8 against. But I'm not sure about the for, because I got distracted. That thought is comforting, because I too had thought everyone disliked her. And I cannot personally see anything wrong with being gay- it isn't like they choose to be...but this might be too sensitive to bring up, and it isn't on topic. But PM to explain what the problem is- being fairly young (ie still at school) I don't really understand...

[Bêthberry]

I fail to see what being gay has to do with the topic of this thread. Please stay on topic, folks.<P>I think both Underhill and Squatter have suggested a very plausible way to arrive at a reasoned understanding of how successful Tyler was/is as Arwen. It comes down, really, to grasping the essence of the character in the book. I think that is why McKellen did such a fine job as Gandalf in FotR; he didn't need the pyro technics for his temptation scene that Blanchett did for hers. Or that were used for hers as well.<P>Underhill's idea of maturity runs up against many stereotypes in the characterization of female characters.

[The Only Real Estel]

I don't hold anything PJ did against Liv (or PJ for that matter), & the only slight complaint about her is her tendency to 'breathe' her words. Perhaps she/PJ thought it neccessary to make it sound Elvish, but I don't think it sounds very good. Better than her real voice though .

[Knight of Gondor]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Knight of Gondor, it does seem that, from the disparity in the tone between these two statements, that there is somewhat of a bias in your attitude towards the male vs. the female members of the cast, at least on the surface it appears so. Forgive me if I misunderstand. Sir Ian and Elijah do a good job, despite their personal flaws, while Liv is to be looked down upon for hers...hmmmm...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, you misunderstand me. When I say "guys", I mean the whole cast, no gender bias at all.<P>I don't expect you guys (and gals) to agree with me, but the reason I'm not happy that Ian McKellen is gay is because I'm a Christian, and according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. I know that's not the issue at hand, I just wanted to clear that up.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Okey dokie, I'm not going to argue...<P>But yeah, what an actor has done previously shouldn't matter as long as the acting is effective.

[Lush]

<B>Beth</B> is right: This thread was not intended as a venue for discussing Ian McKellen's sexuality. <P>Do it on your own time.<P><B>Knight</B>, now that I think about it, it makes sense that your attitude toward Liv Tyler's portrayal of Arwen might stem from her past work, but the decision to start this thread is a culmination of my obsevations of people that post on this forum for the past year and a half.<P>"Liv Tyler?" People have said. "Wasn't she that naked chick from 'Stealing Beauty'? That's not good enough for our Arwen!"<P>Or,<P>"I can't take her seriously because she's that chick from that stupid Aerosmith video."<P>I am curious to discover just how much of the negative attitude toward Tyler stems from the fact that she is, above all else, Liv Tyler. <P><B>Underhill</B> brought up a good point that she seems too immature to play Arwen, especially in TTT (Tolkien wrote that Elrond and Arwen's parting would be "bitter," but a scene that smacked of something you'd see on Oprah, complete with a needless plot-twist, was not something I, personally, had in mind). <P>At the same time, does this seeming immaturity stem from Liv Tyler's persona as a whole? Remember, Arwen's character was much more "together" in FotR. Do you agree with <B>Underhill</B> that bad direction and bad lines are <I>also</I> to blame for what we saw in TTT?<P>Overall, is there something that makes it ultimately impossible for some audience members to judge Liv Tyler's performance solely by what they see on the screen at that particular moment?<p>[ September 23, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Silmiel of Imladris]

:shrugs: I think she is doing a good job. For those of you who make you opinion on her past works you must realize that she is not the only one. No one seems to be complaining that Hugo Weaving played a drag queen in Pricilla Queen of the Desert. I hope I never see that movie but if I do it won't change my opinion that he made a great Elrond.

[the phantom]

When an actor makes his first appearance in every film, it's natural to immediately think "Who is this actor and what has he been in before?". For example, when I saw Patrick Stewart in XMen I immediately thought "Oh, there's Patrick" and I thought of him as Captain Picard from Star Trek. That lasted until he became Professor Xavier in my mind and basically erased Captain Picard (which didn't take him long, he's a great actor).<P>You see, an actor (or actress) needs to be able to become different people. If he does not do a good job, then it really screws things up. I remember watching a bad Sylvester Stallone movie one time and just thinking of him as Rocky trying to pass himself off as a cop. Do you get what I'm saying?<P>Well, I think that might be what's happening with Liv Tyler. Sean Astin, Sir Ian, and Sean Bean are actors that I've seen in other roles, but their masterful portrayal of their characters made me forget about who they were before the movie. While LOTR is playing, Sean Bean is Boromir, not a real life actor.<P>Liv doesn't become Arwen though. Her role is thoroughly unimpressive, possibly because 99% of her role is completely made up. Maybe my view is slanted because I read the books first, in other words for Liv to become Arwen she would have to play the part the way it is in the book. Just like I don't think the actor that played Faramir was Faramir in TTT, because it's not the Faramir I know.<P>As far as Liv's previous roles, I haven't seen a single one of them (not even the music video), but I can imagine that I'd probably have trouble with her playing Arwen if I had seen her in raunchy roles, mainly because her role in LOTR is so blah that it wouldn't erase my memory of her in the other role. She wouldn't be Arwen, she'd be some girl from a raunchy movie trying to play Arwen.<P>You guys get what I mean?

[Aduyuldaiel-MirkwoodPrincess]

i think liv tyler is a good actress and shes pretty much what i imagined arwen looking like (or fairly close anyway) im not very famaliar with her movie history...ive only seen her in a few other things...

[Aduyuldaiel-MirkwoodPrincess]

acutally...now that i think about it...her voice is kinda annoying. but anyway...should have said that the first time. sorry yall

[Aduyuldaiel-MirkwoodPrincess]

sorry...last time ill do this... lol<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't expect you guys (and gals) to agree with me, but the reason I'm not happy that Ian McKellen is gay is because I'm a Christian, and according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. I know that's not the issue at hand, I just wanted to clear that up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*dude, way to stand up for what u believe in...i completely agree with you...AMEN and PREACH IT...* ok, im going now...i promise

[Lush]

*Lush nudges MirkwoodPrincess toward the "EDIT" button on her posts*<P>*As an afterthought, Lush nudges MirkwoodPrincess toward Lush's previous post, the one that <I>politely</I> asks whoever responds to this thread to discuss the issue of Ian McKellen's homosexuality in another venue*<p>[ September 23, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Galadrie1]

It wasn't Liv Tyler that bothered me, it was just the way they made Arwen's character (which I blame on the script writers). I found myself saying "Oh, get off the screen, Arwen!" not "Get off the screen, Liv Tyler!" It always bothers me when people mistake characters with real people (for example, people called me Petra for about a year after I was in a play of 'The Chrysalids'). You should judge Liv Tyler's performance on her performance, not on what she's done in the past.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Arwen is nearly 3000 years old; you expect her to have commensurate presence, dignity, and wisdom. You want to have someone in the role who can project a little life wisdom and the feeling that she’s been around the block a time or two, you know? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah, Mister Underhill, I believe that you have put your finger on just how I feel about, not just Liv Tyler's performance, but the portrayal of Elves generally in the films.<P>I too think that she was fine in FotR. She only had a few lines, prior to the chase to the ford (a sequence which I personally think looks great - I am not one who mourns the absence of Glorfindel in the films) and then again briefly at Rivendell, but to me she looked the part and delivered her lines well (in both English and Elvish). Mind you, at that point, I had not read the books for many many years and had not really noticed her much as a character then, so I didn't have a lot of preconceptions.<P>I too am less convinced of her performance in TTT. I do not begrudge her her scenes. She has been brought out as one of the key characters, necessarily so in my opinion if Aragorn's "rejection" of Eowyn is to make any sense to a (non-book reading) film audience and if their wedding at the end is to have any meaning for said audience. So it was equally necessary that she feature in TTT, and I personally am quite glad that she stayed put in Rivendell rather than riding out to do battle at Helm's Deep (as was apparently originally planned). Of course, Jackson and co didn't have much to go on for the scenes in Rivendell. I agree that they could have been better scripted, but they are not one of my major gripes about the film. If anything, I am more distressed by the portrayal of Elrond as a selfish and domineering father.<P>You are right that, as an actress, she lacks the depth to portray a 3000 year old Elf. But for me, that is true for most of the "Elvish" actors in the films. I mean, for all his boyish good looks, "cool" stunts and obvious fan base, Orlando Bloom is hardly the best actor in the world (certainly not the most experienced). In my opinion, he certainly does not have the depth, quality or experience convincingly to portray an Elven Prince. Not even Cate Blanchett quite gets there, although she makes a good fist of it. Indeed, the only actor who gets close to portraying a convincing Elf for me is Hugo Weaving. Unfortunately the Elf he portrays is not Elrond (well not my conception of Elrond from the books, anyway). As for the other "bit-part" Elves, any attempt to portray their "other-worldly" nature seems to have involved using rather effeminate actors in long blonde wigs. <P>The problem, I think, is that Elves are an ancient and wonderous race. Human in appearance and yet not human. And, for that reason, I think that it is extremely difficult for any actor, even a very experienced and skilled one (which neither Liv nor Orli are), to portray them as those of us who have read the books imagine them to be. However much lighting effects might be used to bathe them in a radiant glow, or SFX might be used to make them seem superhuman, they are still manifestly human.<P>Now this is not going to be an issue for the majority of people who go to see these films. As long as Orli looks good, shoots his arrows heroically and does the odd bit of somersaulting and shield surfing, and as long as Cate and Liv are beautiful and wear gorgeous dresses, they will not mind. For me, it is an issue only to the extent that the Elves that I saw on the screen were not the Elves that I imagined in my head. But, then again, neither were Frodo, Faramir, Merry, Pippin, Gimli and countless others the characters that I encounter when I read the books. Since I have got to the stage now where I can divorce the films from the books and enjoy them for what I consider them to be - great films - these things do not really bother me anymore. My point is, however, that it seems unfair to single Liv Tyler out for her inabilty to portray a convincing Elf when few of the "Elvish" cast are able to do so either.<P>And no, it matters not a jot to me what she, or any other members of the cast, do in their private lives, or what other films they have been in previously. When we are talking about their performances in the LotR films, we should of course judge them on those performances alone.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You are right that, as an actress, she lacks the depth to portray a 3000 year old Elf. But for me, that is true for most of the "Elvish" actors in the films.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think you have hit upon an inevitable flaw here, <B>Saucepan Man</B>. Just how does one play a worldly, yet otherworldly being of an Elder race? I, personally, think Cate Blanchett did rather well in her portrayal of Galadriel, and that Weaving's Elrond seemed a bit too grumpy to me. In fact, it seems that the interplay between Elrond and Arwen in TTT suggests less that Liv's Arwen is immature than that Weaving's Elrond knows where to poke her to get her to do what he wishes her to do. Her abundance of tears would seem to point to the unique ability of parents to needle the proper place in their children, even when nothing or no one else can faze them. Elrond simply knows where to poke his daughter to get her to listen to him. I thought Elrond to be grumpy and a little bit jealous in these scenes. Surely Arwen must have known what would be her destiny should she choose a mortal life with Aragorn; but the way Elrond tells it makes her despair and follow his wishes. <P>As for being thousands of years old, I found it interesting that the Elves had an amazing capacity for immaturity, even at their great ages, as illustrated by the endless strife between them in the Silmarillion. Beren had a point when he upbraided King Thingol for his petty wish to have a Silmaril in exchange for his daughter's hand! <P>Perhaps they mature more slowly in mind and body, as would befit a race that lives for many, many years. I would think Arwen to be the least jaded and worldly of the Elder race, simply because she is their Evenstar, a younger, more freethinking being who does not seem to hold all the history of the Elves in Middle Earth in her heart, but can make the choice to be a fleeting part and seed of the future (through her contribution to the line of Elessar), rather than a relic of the Third Age to be lost with its passing. <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta<p>[ September 24, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Aduyuldaiel-MirkwoodPrincess]

oops...sorry yall...i have a problem with doing that. i tend to read the question and then read a few other posts and then say whatever happens to come out of my fingers and thru the keyboard and so on and so forth. liv tyler seems to only have become famous because of her parents though... for some reason people that do that seem to bother me...

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> i have a problem with doing that. i tend to read the question and then read a few other posts and then say whatever happens to come out of my fingers and thru the keyboard and so on and so forth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, Aduyuldaiel-MirkwoodPrincess, that is a problem easily fixed. All you have to do is read through the other posts before posting yourself. Many who post here put a lot of thought and effort into what they say. If you expect people to read your posts, it is only fair to do them the courtesy if reading theirs.

[Lord of Angmar]

No offense Lush, but this does not seem to be the most Tolkien-related topic on the site. I personally have no problem with Liv Tyler, and she is one of the actors whose face I willingly picture in the books as I read them (as opposed to Eowyn and Barliman Butterbur, among others, who I try to think of as the same way I did before the movies arrived). People have argued that Arwen was not particularly strong in her Two Towers performance, but I beg to differ; the scene in which Aragorn attempts to give back the pendant, the scene in which she has a heart-to-heart with her father Elrond, and the close-up on her face when Aragorn walks away, were all (at least to me) particularly poignant. I will be the first to admit that I have never seen a Liv Tyler movie before the Lord of the Rings came out, but had I already seen one or all I would not have that fact weigh in on my evaluation of her performance as Arwen.<p>[ October 06, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Frodo Baggins]

Well Knight of Gondor I was going to PM you but your box is full *hint hint*. As for your belief keep it up!<P><BR>Saucepan man, you are my new best friend. That is my big pet peeve about TTT (aside from the death of Haldir). Arwen an immature teenager and Elrond a grouchy, overbearing, selfish tyrannical father. In the book it said their parting would be bitter and in the tale of Aragorn and Arwen in Appendix A it says "She loved her father dearly". It seemed to me in the movie that Arwen wasn't too entirely thrilled to have her dad around. No dear love there! and speaking of grouchy ill temepered Lords of Rivendell, what happened to the description of ELrond being "kind as summer"? There was none of that in any movie so far.

[Finwe]

In the book, <I>Morgoth's Ring</I>, it states that the Elves, as a race, took longer to mature than Men, having reached their full stature at 50 years. By that time, most Men are waning, or already are in their dotage. <P>I applaud Arwen's strength and integrity in keeping with the choice that she made, even though it would eventually bring her pain. She wasn't living for the moment at all. She knew full well the consequences of choosing to become Mortal, and marrying Aragorn. She knew that she would be leaving her entire family, and eventually, her beloved would leave her too. Not many of us can consciously make that choice and stick to it. That strength is given to a chosen few, and Arwen was one of them.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Well Knight of Gondor I was going to PM you but your box is full *hint hint*. As for your belief keep it up! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Can we please stop bringing this up. I also tried to PM KoG, but that door was shut so I let it lay and would have continued to do so if it wasn't brought up again.<P>I, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here, found KoG's comments, especially towards Mr. McKellen, offensive. Institutionized prejudice is still prejudice. It's like me justifying a hatred for Jews on the basis of being a Nazi.<P>H.C.

[Mister Underhill]

McKellan's sexual orientation is off-topic under virtually any circumstances, and even more so in this thread concerning Liv Tyler's performance as Arwen. Let's not ruin a perfectly legitimate topic with back-and-forth. <P>Further posts touching on this touchy subject or cheerleading one side or the other will be swiftly deleted, as they're already leading to personal friction and off-topic debate. In fact, I may go back and zap a few of these most recent posts. <P>Let's keep it on-topic and civil, folks.

[Jack]

When I first watched FotR I had no idea of her past movie history. She did a pretty good job with the elvish and looked ok. The only reason I had at that time was that she took Glorfindels part! (not like Frodo NEEDED her help...)Then my friend told me about this movie she had just seen (since I don't watch movie's like that I had no idea! And that made me REALLY MAD!!!! Then I saw a picture of her without her elvish makeup and COULD NOT BELEAVE IT!!! So if we are talking acting job... Ok, not my favorite, but if we are talking her as a person, NO WAY!<P>It seems to me that we are letting the people who are in character affect what we think about the character its self! <P>TTFN

[Knight of Gondor]

Just taking a second to clear the air here, and hope that I do not stir up further personal attacks for daring to hold to my outdated opinions that God is God and says that homosexuality is a sin. First, my apologies to accidentally redirecting the topic to homosexuality. This was not my intention, and I apologize for that. I do not, however, apologize for my beliefs and opinions, and I submit that anyone who uses such derogatory terms for me is the one who is close-minded and intolerant.<P>Here's what I said previously: I don't expect you guys (and gals) to agree with me, but the reason I'm not happy that Ian McKellen is gay is because I'm a Christian, and according to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. I know that's not the issue at hand, I just wanted to clear that up.<P>Does that sound so terribly offensive?<P>A note about my private message box: A few people have mentioned before that my PM box was "full" - I took this to mean that they had sent a lot of messages, but when I looked, I was puzzled that nothing was there. It took a while to get through my head that there was a LIMIT on how many messages I could have in my box. So I have cleared it out now, and anyone who wants to PM me and bad-mouth me or something, go ahead. Be assured I am not, by any means, ducking anyone as H.C. implies.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No one seems to be complaining that Hugo Weaving played a drag queen in Pricilla Queen of the Desert.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, I never knew that. But I never seen that movie, nor heard of it. But I don't like it...nor that Sean Bean was in a porn film, nor that David Westhelm or whatever his last name was (I keep forgetting) played a drug addict. It just ruins the concept of the characters for me, at least a little.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well Knight of Gondor I was going to PM you but your box is full *hint hint*. As for your belief keep it up!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks man, and PM away now!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here, found KoG's comments, especially towards Mr. McKellen, offensive. Institutionized prejudice is still prejudice. It's like me justifying a hatred for Jews on the basis of being a Nazi.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Please don't stoop to personal attacks just because you are prejudiced towards me and my opinions, H.C.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Further posts touching on this touchy subject or cheerleading one side or the other will be swiftly deleted, as they're already leading to personal friction and off-topic debate. In fact, I may go back and zap a few of these most recent posts. <P>Let's keep it on-topic and civil, folks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Understood, and agreed, Mr. Underhill. I hope you don't mind if I posted this last post to clear the air, and my name. <P>Once again, sorry for misdirecting the tone of this discussion, and let’s not carry any judgmental attitudes away from this discussion based solely on personal stances. <P>Regards,<P>Knight

[The Barrow-Wight]

I promise to be absolutely intolerant of the next 'I'm sorry but here's my completely irrelevant moral opinion' post.

[HCIsland]

KofG, there are many people (and churches) that believe in God and are Christians that don't think homosexuality is a sin. Please don't pretend you have no choice in your believes. I'm not personally attacking you, but you can't justify a prejudice based upon a higher authority.<P>H.C.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So anyway, speaking of Elves.....<P>Hugo Weaving is a fantastic actor and, I think, plays the part that was given to him wonderfully. You can argue that he's not handsome enough to really look like Elrond (and I would agree) but that is of secondary importance. His anguish at Arwen's (fake) departure in TTT was heartbreaking to watch.<P>There is no doubt in my mind that it is the script and the direction that is lacking here.<P>Liv Tyler also suffers from a bad script. However, I think her task was easier than Weaving's. The script already established Arwen as the 'face' to Elrond's 'heel'. (Apologies for my wrestling terminology there! That means 'good guy' to 'bad guy') She had a much easier opportunity to endear herself to the audience, but still came across as helpless and broken down.<P>I think Tyler should have been able to put in a more accomplished part, regardless of the carelessness on the part of the filmmakers.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Hmm I thought Arwen was ok...well at least a lot better than many people have made out (i.e. all the jealous Aragorn-groupies at my school ).<BR>I agree, Hugo Weaving was really good with what he was given.

[HCIsland]

Found this at OneRing.<P><A HREF="http://greenbooks.theonering.net/quickbeam/files/091503.html" TARGET=_blank>For The Love Of Arwen</A><P>H.C.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Ahhh what a nice article...hang on, it isn't really an article. What should I call it?<BR>I think I agree with most of what Quickbeam said.

[mark12_30]

(Uh, Liv was in other movies? ...Oh.) In terms of her portrayal of Arwen, my only (exceedingly trivial and unfair) gripe is that I wished they had cast somebody with a bonier face; more about that later.<P>But first let me say, I thought her performance regarding the entire "appendix-A-part-V" scene was magnificent; sensitively acted, reserved, mature (relatively speaking) and to my mind very effective. I was quite moved, more so the more I see it.<P>I had little problem with the TTT conversation after Aragorn's interrupted nap. It was reserved and carefully done. I've read complaints about the lack of passion in that scene. I thought it was appropriate that the scene was sad rather than passionate. <P>Eh, but I always imagined elves as having very, very bony faces. Bloom (excuse me) was perfect or nearly so in terms of boniness. But he was the only one. Blanchett came close. The rest... what's with all those pudgy-faced elves???<P>(Yes, it's trivial and shallow. So shoot me.) Anyway, if that's my only complaint, apparently I was quite happy with Liv's performance.

[*Varda*]

I personally don't feel that Liv Tyler should be judged on her previous roles - it's completely irrelevant her playing Arwen. <P>All I'd seen of Liv Tyler's roles before LotR were Armageddon and bits of One night at McCool's, but when I was watching both FotR and TTT, neither of those roles so much as entered my head. <P>I think Liv Tyler's performance as Arwen wasn't great - but I put this down more to what the directors did - bad lines for her, etc. The first times I saw the movie I was too busy wondering why they changed what they did to really pay close attention to her acting. <P>I think part of the problem for Liv was that it was harder for her to get into Arwen's character, as Tolkien never developed it as much as the others. She didn't have as much material to work from, just some paragraphs in the actual book and a part in the appendices. <P>Also, taking on the task of playing such an ethereal character such as an elf, almost other worldly, must be pretty daunting and difficult in itself.

[Beth the Elf]

I never knew she did movies like that...Besides LotR I've only seen her in Armageddon. I just don't like her because she plays Arwen, WHO SHOULD NOT HAVE SUCH A BIG PART IN THE MOVIES!!!!!

[Lush]

To clarify for those of you that have not followed Liv Tyler's career:<P>"Movies like that" are movies in which Liv Tylers has played characters that are radically different from Arwen's character: some of them do feature nudity and/or sex. These aren't porn flicks, or Girls Gone Wild-type cinematic excursions (though even if they were, I don't think it should matter). <P>I think my main purpose in starting this thread was to see if there is more prejudice toward Liv Tyler's acting background, because she is a woman. <P>Among Tolkien fans, I have noticed a general trend of actresses not being taken seriously because they've appeared topless in a European art-flick or something along those lines, and somebody was right to point out that no one seems to remember that Hugo Weaving played a drag-queen, or that Viggo Mortensen consistently lights up the silver screen as a sexy womanizer. <P>But I have since discovered that the reason most Tolkien fans do not take Liv Tyler seriously has little to do with her previous roles and more to do with her skills, and her maturity or lack thereof.<P>Basically, people seem to treat her as an actress first and foremost. Personally, I welcome this approach and am glad that my initial ideas have been proven wrong. <P>And for the record: I think that those few people that brought Liv Tyler's personal character into discussion, even if it was an afterthought, should have refrained from doing so. We are only aware of Tyler through her acting, to make assumptions about what she's like as a person and whether or not anyone of us would like or dislike her personally is a bit presumptuous, in my opinion.<p>[ October 05, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Cibbwin]

I'm not sure. I particularly find her to be quite a good actress, her facial expressions just bring me to tears, and she is a very attractive woman, but I just love how she portrayed Arwen. Not only was the character given life, but she was perfect as the Queen of Gondor.<P>Honestly, who wouldn't use Steven Tyler's name to get them ahead? As much of a cliche (blah, blah) it is, she used it to follow the career she's dreamed of. I don't find it disrespectful, I would say It's taking the initiative.<P>As for the nude scenes... Honestly, Sean Bean has showed off his... assets in quite a few movies, Orlando Bloom, Viggo Mortensen, Elijah Wood are all sex symbols, and more we've probably not heard of.