The Scouring of the Shire -- Why Not???

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Yes, I realize a major reason for not including The Scouring of the Shire in ROTK would be not having enough time, but if so, why did they include the Mirror of Galadriel scene in FOTR in the first place? That scene, with Frodo looking into the mirror, clearly shows Orcs ravaging the Shire. How can they not resolve that (and the questions that go along with that) without including at least a brief version of the Scouring?<P>Also, how will they tie up Saruman's and Wormtongue's ends? Have Legolas shoot them? Pleeze...<P>Thoughts?

[The Elusive Spirit]

The mirror of Gladriel was needed to develop Gladriel's character as well as to explain<BR>some stuff about the Ring. I'm pretty sure Gladriel said that what was seen in the mirror may happen. It was to show what would happen of Frodo failed.<BR>I've heard rumors that Saruman will die at Isengard. I'm not sure about Wormtoung. Does<BR>someone else know?

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>How can they not resolve that (and the questions that go along with that) without including at least a brief version of the Scouring?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> She said that that (the Shire being ravaged) would come about if Frodo should fail. I think him destroying the Ring will take care of it without problem.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Also, how will they tie up Saruman's and Wormtongue's ends? Have Legolas shoot them? Pleeze...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Saruman's End: Wormtounge cuts Saruman's throat, then throws him off of Orthanc. <P>Wormtounge's End: Legolas does shot him. The arrow sails over his head, only to come crashing down on Grima's skull, effectivly ending his mocking laughter at the apparently ill-aimed shot.

[Arwen1858]

Estel: Is that speculation, or what is really going to happen? Just wondered!<BR>Arwen

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Is that speculation<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nope, that's what'll happen. Unless of course they cut it & re-do it (.000001% chance ).

[Elladan and Elrohir]

OK, thanks for the xplano. It's not completely satisfying, but it works. At least Sharkey comes to his proper end (though not in its proper location).<P>I just hope against hope that we get to hear:<BR>Saruman: "No, Worm is not very nice."

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

<B>Estel</B>, your news of Wormtongue's death has brought a tear to my eye. I cannot believe that Legolas will (almost certainly) kill Wormtongue. It sounds terrible.<P>The only thing worse would be to have Eowyn, Eomer or Theoden kill him. Having Legolas kill him completely ruins the notion of a sad, pathetic figure suffering a hopeless death. I fear this is going to turn into basic Hollywood-style revenge and that cinema-goers everywhere will cheer when he dies.

[HCIsland]

I've read that more than one death has been filmed for Saruman. Although I have no doubt that the scene Estel describes has been filmed and stands a good chance of happening in the film, I suspect we won't *know* until the movie is released.<P>H.C.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I've read that more than one death has been filmed for Saruman.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> True. All I have read is that they shot different endings to his death (after being killed by Wromtounge), including the infamous 'free-falling off Orthanc & onto a spiked wheel'.

[Ophelia]

I dunno about you guys but I have seen a pic of Saruman lying on a big hand of stone and one of it's fingers has cut trough Saruman's chest and he look pretty dead to me . Well , there are many versions about this

[Morima]

This is depressing stuff guys! I understand that it's difficult for PJ to include the Scouring and a decent death for Saruman and Gríma, but I just hope that he has come up with a seriously well-thought out way for them to die at Orthanc. That would actually mean a lot to me. Both of them are important characters!<P>RealEstel: That sounds ... Not good. But I dunno what could be better either, so I won't talk -_-

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Well I don't think I'd mind that ending too much. Scouring is out, so why not give Leggy some more stunts? Hehehe...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

<B>Elentari</B>, whether you're being sarcastic or not, I'll explain why it would be bad to give 'Leggy' some more stunts.<P>Legolas would be seen, quite unfairly, as remorseless and unforgiving to another Child of Iluvatar, despite Frodo's forgiveness in the book. It detracts dignity from the character of Legolas.<P>As for Wormtongue, it will only emphasise the message to the audience that Wormtongue is just another bad guy who's death does not matter and should be cheered. It completely abandons the sad and hopeless tale of his life that was so tragic in the book.

[HCIsland]

The Legolas shooting Wormtongue bit at Orthanc seems wrong to me as well but I'm waiting to see what actually happens in the film before I judge.<P>As for the Scouring, it needs to be out. Frankly, it's unworkable in the film.<P>H.C.

[Morima]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for Wormtongue, it will only emphasise the message to the audience that Wormtongue is just another bad guy who's death does not matter and should be cheered. It completely abandons the sad and hopeless tale of his life that was so tragic in the book.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is so true.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Yes, I was being sarcastic actually, and I totally agree with what you're saying. But the non-book audiences simply will not care, unfortunately.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I thought you were being sarcastic Elentari. However, due to the picture of Legolas beside your name, I felt the need to make sure!<P>HC, I disagree with you. I think the Scouring of the Shire should be put in the film. Please let me know why you think it wouldn't work.

[HCIsland]

I've argued this in many other threads, but basically the Scouring is a story onto itself and doesn't work at the end of the film. Imagine you could do the rest of the film in, say two and a half hours. The film (plays work in the same way) should be building to it's conclusion. Instead what the audience would be getting is a whole new story with it's own set of characters. Suddenly we are introducing Rufians and hobbits that we barely got a glimps of (or weren't introduced at all in the film) are suddenly important characters in of themselves.<P>You would have to introduce Farmer Cotten, The Sherrifs, Lotho and Lobella all during a time when the story should be getting more simple, not more complicated. Audiences wouldn't swallow it. One of the magical things about these films is that Jackson makes films that are almost three hours long feel like half that. The Scouring could be done in maybe 20-30 minutes, but would end up feeling twice that as the pacing of the film would be totaling thrown off.<P>In a thousand-plus page novel, it works wonderfully. In a movie or play, it simply doesn't work. If someone made a LotR TV series, the Scouring would make a great second-to-last episode as it is a natural story into itself.<P>You can disagree all you want, but I don't think there's a film-maker out there that would not have lopped off The Scouring.<P>H.C.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Throughout the first 2 films, there are quite a few characters who are barely introduced. Butterbur, Gamling, etc. It wouldn't be too hard to treat the other Hobbits in this way. Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin come back to the Shire and Saruman and Wormtongue are already there causing havoc.<P>These are the only characters you really have to know. Anyway, there's going to be so much 'wrapping up' of the story after the Ring is destroyed that the film's going to end quite a while after. You have Frodo and Sam's glorious return, the burial of Theoden, the Wedding of Aragorn and Arwen including the many guests, the farewells, and the return to the Shire. It's going to be a slow end to the film anyway.<P>Besides, I think that the Scouring is a very important part of the story which distinguishes it from all the other cliched 'happy ending' stories out there.

[Maéglin]

And what exactly is wrong with a happy ending Eomer? Remember the Grey Havens is in the film and that is very emotional and really highlights Frodo's sacrifice. He has saved all that is good but in the end he cannot stay to enjoy it because of his ordeals. I recently finished high school and I must say I am beginning to understand Frodo and the other's sorrow in parting from one another..

[HCIsland]

Grey Havens is a happy ending?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You have Frodo and Sam's glorious return, the burial of Theoden, the Wedding of Aragorn and Arwen including the many guests, the farewells, and the return to the Shire. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I expect all of this to be handled fairly quickly. 20 minutes - 30 minutes of film time, tops.<P>H.C.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Happy endings seem to occur too regularly. This story didn't seem to have a happy ending and the emotions shouldn't be changed, whatever else might be. In any case, this isn't exactly a fairy tale, is it?

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think the Scouring of the Shire should be put in the film. Please let me know why you think it wouldn't work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Eomer, in cinematographic terms, it simply wouldn't work to have another "mini-climax" after the main climax of the film (indeed the trilogy of films) has taken place. Particularly when the "mini-climax" would conclude a story which we have not seen throughout the three films.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Besides, I think that the Scouring is a very important part of the story <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I absolutely agree. But I also agree with HC when he says:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In a thousand-plus page novel, it works wonderfully. In a movie or play, it simply doesn't work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

HC, I think 20-30 minutes would be dreamlike for all that stuff. I reckon it will be brutalised down into about 10-13 minutes.<P>You are all right, its not a happy ending anyway. But Jackson is obviously trying to make it a sight more happy by not including this disaster for the Shire.<P>Saucepan, your point about not showing the Scouring because it concludes a tale that has not been told in the first two films does not sway me. First of all, it was Jackson's choice not to put these into the first films. Secondly, most of the story actually takes place in Jackson's version of ROTK, with the downfall of Saruman at Isengard, as well as the meeting with Saruman on the way home from Gondor. The only part that hasn't been explained is the naming of the Hobbits (Lobelia, Lotho, etc) which, as I pointed out above, is not really necessary.<P>The other point that several people have made regarding 'climax' and 'anticlimax' or 'mini-climax' confuses me. I'll be honest, I've only made one film before so I'm not an expert on cinematography. But why does every blockbuster have to fit the mould of others by having a big climax to end the film?

[The Only Real Estel]

I'd say we'd be lucky to get 10-20 min. for the stuff mentioned above, but I'd also say we can expect it to get a good bit of the extended material when the EE comes out.

[Angadraug]

I say it should be filmed but left out of the theatrical version and regular dvd/vhs version. Then it should be fitted into the EE DVD for all of us to enjoy.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But why does every blockbuster have to fit the mould of others by having a big climax to end the film? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am not saying that RotK has to "fit the mould" of other Hollywood films, Eomer. But a film (especially one made for mass audience appeal) still has to follow certain conventions. Most importantly, it has to be paced correctly.<P>The audience has just sat through the final climax involving the battle at the Black Gate and the destruction of the Ring, and then has the joyous release of the fellowship being reunited and the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen. They will be shifting in their seats anticipating the end of the film. (By all accounts they will, after all, have been sitting there for well over 3 hours by this stage, a much longer time by some distance than the entire duration of most films.) They will then be treated to the bittersweet ending of the Grey Havens. To my mind, that will work well on screen.<P>But if the Scouring of the Shire, much as I love it in the books, was placed in between these scenes, it would totally destroy the pacing of the film. And the (non-book reading) audience would resent it. They will have been getting ready to leave, only to find that another "story within a story" is unfolding before them.<P>The Scouring works so well in the book because it is marks how much the Hobbits, from whose viewpoint the story is told, have changed, It signifies a resolution of Merry and Pippin's journey and it foreshadows Frodo's eventual departure from Middle-earth, in that he is unable to countenance Saruman's execution. But the film (necessarily) has not been depicted solely from the Hobbit's viewpoint, and so it would seem out of place. Yes, some resolution of Merry and Pippin's development will (I hope) be in order, and there should be some indication of why Frodo can no longer remain in Middle-earth. But this need not (and should not) take up some 30 minutes of film time, as the Scouring would require (at the very least) to do it any justice.<P>I hope that this makes some sense to you, Eomer, becuase it's difficult to explain. I just don't feel that it would work on the screen. A book is still subject to some constraints in terms of pacing. But a book can get away with an episode like this, partly because it does not have the same limitations on timing and partly, I think, because a reader buys in to a book far more emotionally than the average viewer buys into a film.

[Slayer]

I totally agree with you. The scourig of the shire is one of my favorite chapters and it completely developes Merry and Pippins characters as hobbits who have grown up and can handle their own affairs quite nicely. It also is a great ending that tolkien thought of to have gandalf let the hobbits deal with the shire themselves. I have much respect for PJ but leaving out the scouring of the shire is a sin in my book.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

So who do you totally agree with, slayer?<BR>I liked the Scouring in the book too, and I was devastated when I first heard of it being left out, but discussing has made it much clearer in my mind as to why it is to be left out.

[Daisy Brambleburr]

I'm hoping that instead of showing how much the Shire has changed PJ will focus completely on how much the hobbits have changed. If the Shire has not altered since they have been away then the audience will be able to see a clearer contrast, and will be able to focus more intently on the hobbit's characters and how they are now, as opposed to the shock of the majorly altered Shire perhaps shadowing them out instead of making the change stronger? I found this picture on councilofelrond.com, aparrently it's of the hobbits returning to the Shire. <BR><A HREF="http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=My_eGallery&file=index&do=showpic&pid=12586&orderby=titleA" TARGET=_blank>picture</A><BR>I hope that little ramble made sense. Does anyone understand/agree? <BR>And for the record I totally agree with HC's posts. Some things work well in the books but not in the movies, and vice versa. The Scouring is great in the books, but wouldn't work on screen.<p>[ October 05, 2003: Message edited by: Daisy Brambleburr ]

[HCIsland]

You gotta love the pic eh Daisy? Especially the look on Frodo's face.<P>I agree. I hope there is still something awaiting the hobbits back home. PJ went through the effort of introducing the Sackville-Bagginses in the EE Fellowship, so he still may make use of them (at least in a EE RotK ). Lobella and company can still do a lot of damage to Bag End and Bagshot Row without the need of Sharky or Ruffians. There can be a scene with them that underscores the growth of the Hobbits, especially Merry and Pippin.<P>H.C.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Concerning pacing however, I think that Jackson's pacing has been dubious throughout the trilogy. I don't think that he should have spent so much time on Helm's Deep for one thing. I think The Two Towers should have ended with Frodo's capture by the Orcs.<P>I would have liked to see enough time given to the events at the end of the book, rather than see them treated as an afterthought. Now, I agree that it would have been bold for Jackson to try the Scouring. I think it would work. Some of you clearly think that it would be a bad idea. But I have nothing new to add to my side so I'm just going to look forward to the film.

[Konarmi]

The movie is set to be 4 hours anyway.. the battle scenes encompass 25% of the movie.. it's kind of like the Tom B issue.. the scouring of the Shire doesn't movie the story allong. At least that was the explaination used in the FOTR, extended DVD.. meh.<p>[ October 06, 2003: Message edited by: Konarmi ]

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Concerning pacing however, I think that Jackson's pacing has been dubious throughout the trilogy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wow, I would argue that Jackson's sense of pacing is one of his greatest strength. I've never been in movies that are almost three hours long that flew by so quickly. Usually movies this long are death at the box office, but these have been money grossing maniacs.<P>You can argue with a lot of what Jackson does, but pacing isn't one of them in my mind.<P>H.C.

[Essex]

re Eomer's point<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Besides, I think that the Scouring is a very important part of the story which distinguishes it from all the other cliched 'happy ending' stories out there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well said. Tolkien has the Scouring (amongst other things eloquently mentioned on this thread) to show us that this story is NOT a fairy tale with a happy ending.<P>I was reminded of something like this last night when I watched The Ring. (don't continue reading if you haven't seen it).<P>The film was terrifying, and when I saw Naomi Watts in the shower at the end of the film I was happy that the film was going to have a 'happy' ending (ie the killings stopped) when WHAM! in the next scene in comes her son with the twist explaining it wasn't all over and DOUBLE WHAM the amazing, terrifying next killing scene. And then we have the realisation that all is not well, and the killing will continue.<P>Sorry for going off on a horror tangent, and it was a VERY loose link!!!!<P>PS Back to the real world and the 'other' Ring film, Tolkien himself said that the Scouring was an essential part of the plot of LOTR.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Oh well. I guess I accept your explanation, HCIsland. The War of the Ring will never be truly be over - no Battle of Bywater, but what you said makes sense (though I don't know much about what works in a movie).<P>And yes, the picture is majestic! Pippin and Merry truly look "lordly."

[HCIsland]

At the risk of driving this topic even further off track, if anyone knows where a high res copy of the pic of the four hobbits, I would love to get a copy of it.<P>It's wallpaper material.<P>H.C.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

HC, your horror at my use of film terminology is completely justified. 'Pacing' was the wrong word for me to use. I do agree that the films flew by and that it was a great achievement.<P>What do I mean though? I do think that Helm's Deep had slightly too much time spent on it and I would rather that Frodo' capture had ended the film.<P>Helm's Deep was one chapter which was blown up to great proportions. If any one chapter could have had that treatment I'd rather it had been 'The Tower of Cirith Ungol.' I know it probably will get a fair amount of time but words really cannot describe how wonderful and it is and how important it is to get it done well.<P>Ok, so 'pacing' - bad and wrong word!

[Eurytus]

I have found this to be an interesting thread and I totally agree with those who said that the scouring of the Shire should be left out. Whilst it works in the book it would not do so in the films. As someone already said, after Mount Doom audiences are already thinking about the end of the film and they would not accept another chapter added to the end. To use another series of films to illustrate this (and one that almost everybody will have seen) take the original Star Wars trilogy. Would the audience have accepted a subplot after the fall of the Empire wherein Luke returned to Tatooine and rebuilt Uncle Owens farm? I do not believe they would. In the book the Scouring is important to show the growth of the Hobbits and that no war is without loss but I think PJ will have ample opportunity to show both these aspects in other ways.<BR>As to growth, I think that Frodo & Sam completing the quest, Merry assisting in killing the Witchking and Pippen helping to save Faramir and stabbing the Troll will demonstrate growth enough. And for the loss, well you will have Sam’s distress at Frodo’s leaving Middle Earth. That will be emotional enough. Added to that PJ has been building up the fact that the Elves are leaving Middle Earth never to return, that could have a big pay off. And you could have Arwen’s final goodbye to her father, separated for all eternity. I think the twin themes of growth and loss can be handled without the scouring and this method will suit the medium of film better than keeping the scouring would.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I have heard rumors that Saruman will fall off of the tower and will be impaled on a round wheel with spikes.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What do I mean though? I do think that Helm's Deep had slightly too much time spent on it and I would rather that Frodo' capture had ended the film. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Fair enough and in a sense I agree with you. My biggest issue with Towers is that the central plot (Frodo taking the Ring to Mordor) doesn't advance that much. We start the film with Frodo and Sam on their way to Mordor, they pick up Gollum about 15 minutes in and by the end of the film we have Frodo, Sam and Gollum on their way to Mordor.<P>PJ tried to cover this up by making the film more about saving Rohan, but that's less than satisfying as LotR is not about Rohan. That's a side story. Putting Shelob at the end of Towers would have fixed this but at the expense of what? I think the argument that Frodo and Sam don't have enough to do in King is justifiable and frankly, if PJ was going to sacrifice one of his films to this I would rather it be the middle one.<P>H.C.

[Essex]

But if Jackson DID follow the books and finish TT as Tolkien did, then we would have been given the best cliffhanger in Cinema History.<P>"Frodo was alive but taken by the Enemy"<P>Jackson has countered this by stating that we have to wait and see why he left the shelob scene for ROTK. He says we'll understand when we see the movie...... hmmmm...<P>Plus, isn't it strange that Jackson's film ends at EXACTLY the same point as Bashki's cartoon for Frodo/Sam/Gollum and Rohan?

[ArathorofBarahir]

I agree with you on the biggest cliffhanger in cinema history, however I think the reason that the Scouring of the Shire was cut out of ROTK was because PJ wanted to keep the running time down. But hey that is just my opinion.

[Lost One]

If PJ was just interested in keeping TT running time down, then he could have jettisoned the gratuitous 'Aragorn MIA' section. I would agree that he made this decision to build up the Frodo/Sam action in ROTK. Once they are clear of Shelob, Cirith Ungol and Gollum, then it's just a slow plod to the Cracks of Doom, and all the narrative interest would be with the other characters back in Gondor. We'll need to see the result, of course, but it might well be a wise decision.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But if Jackson DID follow the books and finish TT as Tolkien did, then we would have been given the best cliffhanger in Cinema History.<P>"Frodo was alive but taken by the Enemy" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can see your point, Essex, but I nevertheless think that it was the right decision to move Shelob to RotK. I gave my reasons for this in a rather lengthy post on the <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002331" TARGET=_blank>What would you as a director have done better? </A> thread. But since my post unfortunately seems to have killed that thread off ( ), I will repeat them here:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Of course, many would say that Shelob should have been in the film for this very purpose. But it seems to me that there was never going to be enough time have the Hobbits and Gollum ascend to the pass of Cirith Ungol, for them to see the Black Army marching from Minas Morgul, and to have their encounter with Shelob. Even if there had been no journey to Osgiliath, the scenes at Henneth Annun would have needed extending, to build up Faramir’s character. To have Shelob tacked onto the end of the film would mean that she would, in my view, have insufficient screen time to do her justice. Also, it makes more sense for the audience to see Sauron’s forces, led by the Witch King, march down from Minas Morgul at the beginning of RotK, since it is the precursor to the Seige of Minas Tirith and the Battle of Pelennor Fields. And I still think that Shelob is going to provide a fantastic curtain raiser for the third film. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, I realise that I am wandering rather off-topic here. But moving Shelob to RotK is relevant to the running-time for that film and does therefore have <I>some</I> bearing on the question of whether or not the Scouring should have been in TTT.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I want a five hour movie.<P>