**RotK - General impressions and opinions** [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Orual

12-17-2003, 11:19 AM

As my first midnight movie, the whole thing was slightly surreal for me, but I enjoyed it immensely. All the hype was justified: Pelennor Fields was SO much bigger than Helm's Deep. I was cringing in my seat; it was a teensy bit too intense for me, but overall, it was truly magnificent. Theoden's death scene didn't really do much for me, though...I cried like a baby when I read it in the books, but it was one of the few places in the movie where I didn't cry. Heh. It was me and eight boys, so I was the only one crying, but I didn't really mind...not all tears are an evil, after all.Was I the only one who was somewhat shocked by the change in the Frodo/Sam/Gollum story, where Frodo sends Sam away? Not to mention the fact that Sam actually goes? I was kind of disappointed by that, though it worked in the end.As for Arwen...yeah, this was her best movie. I still didn't really like her, but she was much more tolerable, even almost likeable. (You must understand that it's a huge thing that I'm admitting this at all.) I don't know what was different about her, but she was really much better.I was a little disappointed that they left out the other Dunédain. I felt that that could have been cool. But I was more disappointed that they left out Saruman with no more than a "Oh, and by the way, Treebeard, watch out for Saruman, would you?" "Sure, no problem." Back to the main plotline, with no more mention of this incredibly dangerous villain. (Also, I know that this was vital to the 'revised' plotline, but Gandalf's statement that Saruman had 'no power' anymore irked me. It seems like that's getting off a little easy. You flood the town and all of a sudden Saruman's helpless?) And of course, the Scouring of the Shire is sorely missed. I heard that it was Peter Jackson's least favorite part of the books--which shows an abysmal lack of taste, IMHO--and that's why it wasn't filmed.I was blown away by Billy Boyd's performance. The Palantír scene was awesome, as well as the scene where he pledges his service to Denethor, and...who knew he could sing? He has a beautiful voice!Overall, I enjoyed it a lot. There were a few things I would have changed, but it was a beautiful ending to a beautiful trilogy. And I cried buckets when it ended.Added:I just got back from my second viewing, since my brother couldn't make it at midnight. Now that I'm a little calmer about the whole thing, I realize just how much better all of the actors were. Billy Boyd really got a chance to shine in Minas Tirith. Elijah Wood was spectacular, especially at Mt. Doom. Viggo Mortenson...I can't even begin to find words for just how much he made me love Aragorn again. Dom Monaghan made me cry when Pippin left Rohan, and I mean cry hard; the look on Merry's face was so sad. I couldn't love Sean Astin more than I already did, but he was wonderful again...I could just go on, but it would basically be a cast list, so I'll just stop there.I have to give major props to all the actors who played the soldiers of Gondor and Rohan. The second time 'round I realized that part of the reason that the Battle of Pelennor Fields was so intense was that each and every soldier had really realistic expressions on their faces; each time you saw a soldier, you felt the terror and pain that they felt. Way to go, guys.[ 6:34 PM December 17, 2003: Message edited by: Orual ]

Salix

12-17-2003, 12:09 PM

I personally loved it. I found it much better than TTT, but I also barely noticed the changes, except for the Frodo-sending-Sam-away. This time round, I found Arwen and Elrond almost palatable. Still think that Elrond is too Agent Smith-ish, and Arwen was just badly picked, but as my dad remarked "it's like someone gave him (Hugo Weaving) some acting lessons. I don't think that Cate Blanchett did a very good job as Galadriel, considering I can't think of her without thinking about a character named Petal from the Shipping News. Except for those gripes though, I'm happy with the film. The change with Frodo sending Sam away is acted well, and I am able to ignore for the most part the fact that it's a deviation from the book. All in all, I think it's a fine movie.

Elassar 516

12-17-2003, 12:47 PM

I personaly didn't like the movie nearly as much as the others, although I am an obsessive-compulsive, overly critical perfectionist. I especialy disliked Elrond showing up with Anduril. Other than that I hated the Legolas stunt, TTT ones were okay but this was really pushing it (although I did like Legolas and Gimli counting orcs! )I also didn't like the whole Frodo/Sam/Gollum thing. Mordor was WAY to small and what about the whole Barad-Dur lighthouse, besides, after the clips you see of Barad-Dur before I didn't think it was big enough, strong enough, scary enough etc. Athough Minas Morgul was good. And Shelob wasn't at all what I thought she would be, they really could have done more (bigger, more eyes, longer legs, a faint green luminescence underneath etc.) I didn't miss The Scouring of the Shire as much as I thought and at the end the needed to do more with the Elven Rings, plus Bilbo was really ugly, athough when he asks about the ring that was good. That's just scratching the surface, but all I shall say for now. Aside from all of that, it is growing on me.

Nibinlondwen

12-17-2003, 01:01 PM

there are no other words... LOVE

Lossentilien

12-17-2003, 01:04 PM

I need to see it again. I was too overwhelmed to really remember it in detail, as I ended up being totally caught up in it. To be honest though, I was a little dissapointed. There were more cheezy moments in this one, and I so wish it had been longer! I was really looking forward to the Houses of Healing, and Theoden's death wasn't what I expected, neither were the Paths of the Dead. But I loved Shelob. Made my skin crawl. Spiders...eugh. I reckon the extended dvd will be fantastic, but my first impression was that there was too much for them to cram into such a short time, which was kinda depressing. I would've happily sat there for a few more hours. Only one question, what do we do now? See it again and look forward to the dvd I guess, but still. Christmas won't ever be the same again.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

12-17-2003, 01:17 PM

Overall I thought it was very good. My main criticisms centre around Theoden's death (lack of Eomer, lack of dismay, lack of tears), Aragorn's arrival to the Pellenor (basically just coming in the back door, wasn't it?) and, of course, the ridiculous Frodo/Sam/Gollum sequence where Frodo sends Sam away (why? really, why?)But generally I liked it very much, especially the events after the destruction of the Ring. Tears in my eyes.

Mariska Greenleaf

12-17-2003, 01:47 PM

It was a good thing to be aware of the changes PJ made to this movie, and therefor the absence of the mouth of Sauron, the house of healing, the scouring of the Shire, and the complete absence of Saruman and Grima were things I already accepted. So be it.I was completely blown away by ROTK. I have enjoyed it very very much, I did a lot of crying, a bit laughing, and most of the time I just sat there with my mouth wide open, I mean, I've never seen anything like it.I don't feel like complaining about some changes, because the general feeling is a good one, a fantastic one!Personal highlights of the movie(no chronical order)*The very first scene with Smeagol and Deagol, and the changing of Smeagol into Gollum.*Pippin and the palantir.*Gollum, I enjoyed him a lot more than in TTT, he was pure evil.*The army of the death.*Shelob!*Eowyn and Merry and the witchking.*Theoden riding in front of his men and crossing the spears with his sword.And many more, but these things are the ones that spring to mind. I'm going for a second viewing next week, maybe I'll be able to add some more.

Carorëiel

12-17-2003, 04:03 PM

I just got home from seeing it--I'm a bit overwhelmed. I need at least two viewings before it all sets in.But my first impressions are thus (not necessarily in any sort of order):--Saruman feels too easily dispensed with.--Billy Boyd was amazing.--Elijah Wood was amazing.--Eowyn and Faramir's stories seem ridiculously un-tied up (especially since there was such an effort to tie pretty much everything else up). I think this bit would feel unfinished even to people who haven't read the books. --The Mouth of Sauron would have been a nice inclusion. Without him, it seems that less is at stake.--Too much was cut from Frodo and Sam's journey through Mordor. Just little moments really--but I missed them. Things like Sam finding Frodo through singing and the forced march because F&S are assumed to be orcs. (That last one really isn't so little, actually.) --What is up with the bit where Frodo tells Sam to go away? And Sam actually does. No good at all. --The scene between Faramir and Denethor where Denethor admits he wishes Faramir had been the one to die is really good.--Thought the pacing was very good--much better than tTT.--Where is Aragorn revealing himself to Sauron through the palantir?--Starting with Deagol and Smeagol was cool.--Was extremely gratified to see that the movie ended just as the book did--with Sam coming home. Very nice.--Loved the beginning of the end credits with the pictures of the characters next to the credit for each actor. Classy.I think that's enough for now.More later perhaps--will certainly be seeing it again.

DarkRose

12-17-2003, 04:55 PM

I am in AWE. I believe that was the most amazing movie I've ever seen. I sat, my eyes wide and my jaw ajar the entire time. I was completely and utterly engulfed in it. Even now I can barely pick and choose my favorite parts because the entire thing was just SO excellent.I don't mind the changes at all. Unlike some of the changes in the other two movies that made me cringe, these seemed to work. The flow of the movie was perfect, and at the two hour mark it felt like I had been sitting there for only five minutes. My heart raced during the entire movie, especially during the Shelob and battle parts. I cried during the beautiful parts and the sad parts, which covers a large portion of the film, heh. I agree with Orual about Pippin's voice. Who knew we had a singing hobbit on our hands? Overall? Amazing. Astounding. Beautiful. Breath-taking.I can't express in words how much I loved it. I plan to see it again immediately.

Enorëiel

12-17-2003, 05:25 PM

WOW! That was amazing! I loved it!! I want to see it again right now! Luckily two or three of my friends didn't go with me and my other friends last night therefore meaning I have a perfectly valid excuse to go see it again this weekend!!!I have to admit, I wasn't overly thrilled with the opening scene of Smeagol and Deagol. It wasn't bad but eh - Didn't particularly care for it *dodges arrows*.I agree with Eomer of the Rohirrim, I missed the same things about Theoden's death. Where was Eomer? Dismay? Gah! I still loved it though! It was very well put together. Though, did they ever really show Eowyn again until the Corination? Those who have read the book know what happened in between then but, what about the movie viewers? Oh well, EE will come out eventually.I, like many, didn't care for the Frodo sending Sam away scene - how could he? That's not like our Frodo to do such a thing? The sequence worked well in the end but still, why? Shelob was great (chills up my spin, gah! Hate spiders!!) and so was the final scene on Mount Doom. I thought that was done very well. I wasn't too fond of the ending, mostly because, well, it was the ending; I didn't want it to end! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Only two hours of sleep, no caffeine, and I am more energetic than usual <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow! You sound just like me! I didn't get home till 5 o'clock! Luckily today was SEC day so instead of only one hour, I got two!

Meela

12-17-2003, 05:25 PM

It was too long and there wasn't enough Denethor.I was taking notes throughout the film. I'll post a link to a full Meelarific review once I've written it up.

Arathiriel

12-17-2003, 05:28 PM

Wow - ROTK so ROCKED! I am really am in awe of the wonderful job PJ and company did!It will be HIGHWAY robbery if ROTK doesn't win Best Picture!!!!

Eöl

12-17-2003, 05:39 PM

HAH, It was so AWESOME.I love the way they pictured Gandalf fighting. I LOVED It, i always watched close when he was fighting, and it seemed well developed, he had a sense of elvish fighting , or so it seemed.Anyway, not that i hated the rest, i also enjoyed the deatharmy and the blowing of the horn of Rohan pretty much. And legolas' assault upon the oliphaunt Loved the rest aswell

Lalaith

12-17-2003, 06:17 PM

This one is the best of the three. The battle scenes were incredibly moving, when "Rohan had come at last", I wept like a baby, and continued to do so all the way through the battle - ironically, up until the Eowyn/Witch King fight which, while my favourite part of the book, was not done well, I thought. She was scared and she wasn't a particularly skilled swordswoman. And Theoden's death wasn't touching enough either, I don't know why. Another small quibble was the Shelob scene, yes she was impressive but it just went on too long. But overall I thought it was great. Oh, and a very nice cameo by the Elven smiths reforging Anduril.

Gorwingel

12-17-2003, 06:56 PM

This was a wonderful film. Much more different in many ways than I expected, but still really cool. I thought that Pelennor Fields was the highlight, it was so amazing! I actually cared about the people involved with it (Helm's deep I kind of in a way just wanted it to end) and the wide shots with the Army of Rohan! So amazing! And Denethor! He was so mean, I actually felt sorry for Faramir . Oh and Gollum, so evil, I really wanted to kill him during this film. Overall I loved it, but I really need to see it again

Amarantha_Daisy

12-17-2003, 07:11 PM

Oh god...I loved it!I think it was all really well done. The only thing I didn't really like was, of course, the scene when Frodo sends Sam away. It was just so pointless and out of character...Blah.I loved Eowyn! When she said "I am no man" the whole theater started cheering It was great.You know...I agree with Meela (although maybe for different reasons ) I don't think there was enough Denethor. He seemed kind of...random, really. I think he should have had a bigger part. What I *did* see though, I liked!Ummm...I expected a bit more in Mordor...The whole travelling thing seemed a bit short, like it only took a day to get through there.I am *so* glad I read spoilers beforehand. If I hadn't, and was completely surprised...Well I probably would have spazzed out and made sure *everyone* knew of the changes...Um...I'm too excited to talk much right now I'm seeing it again tomorrow, so maybe I'll post more then!

Lëowen

12-17-2003, 07:12 PM

RotK was incredible! Even with the changes, I thought it more than made up for TTT, and it is by far the most amazing film I've ever seen. I loved the battle of Pelennor field, and the lighting of the beacons! It was just so intense and believable. Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith were breath-taking, and the eagles were wonderful. Overall, the only things I can complain about were Saruman suddenly disappearing, and the fact that they left out Ghan-buri-Ghan and the Mouth of Sauron. I wish they had done something else with Faramir and Eowyn, but I guess I'll just have to wait. I can't wait to see it again!

Child of the 7th Age

12-17-2003, 07:25 PM

OK, I admit it. I was positively overawed.I'd boned up on all the plot changes before I went to make sure there was nothing totally unexpected. And, based on the spoilers, I already had a lengthy list of complaints filed away in the back of my brain. And yes, there were things that I would have done differently, both in this movie and the series as a whole. But I filed my list away and went into the theater vowing that I would forget probing analysis while I was actually there. Instead, I promised myself to respond to the movie as a tale about Middle-earth that was worth telling, and not worry so much about whether or not this or that deviated from the books that I've loved so deeply all these years. Far more than the other films, RotK hooked me in on the level of feeling, rather than simply intellect. There were half a dozen scenes where I was crying and others where I had chills or sat on the edge of my seat. I can't remember the last time that happened to me in a movie. I stared mesmerized at the credits and when I finally wandered into the parking lot, it was as if I was ripped from one world to another, and not altogether willingly. I looked around and began asking myself what the cars and pavement were doing there. Very strange. So either I'm going looney, or somehow this movie struck an emotional cord that was far more compelling than either of the earlier ones (although I do like Fellowship a lot for very different reasons).Tomorrow, I will sit back and drag out my list of "he should have dones", think about them some more, and post again. There were definitely things that could have been better in this movie and the series as a whole and which I still have deep feelings about. But tonight, I just wanted to say thanks. When I first read these tales so long ago, I kept hoping that someone would do a movie that would capture some of the feeling of Tolkien's tale. Years went by and that didn't happen, at least in my opinion. Jackson is not the master Tolkien is. He's emphasis is different. He's long on action and a bit short on poetry and wonder. But I think he's given it an honest shot and, particularly in RotK, left us images and hints of Middle-earth that are worth remembering. So thanks to Peter Jackson for having the gumption to envision this project some seven years ago and actually carry it out. Thanks for getting a lot of things right, especially in RotK, which hammered away at basic themes like sacrifice and friendship and hope.

Fíriel of Ao Tea Roa

12-17-2003, 07:59 PM

Where were the characters and the spirit? Where was the trust in the book? It has passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow. The money has gone down in the West, behind hills into shadow. How did it come to this?..I am off to see "Return of the King" again right now and will probably enjoy the experience much more - the first shock will pass, like Frodo into the West..I already fear though that the opening and closing of this installment is the weakest of all. But again, the extended version may change all this. After all, it gave a whole new meaning to "The Two Towers", too, with its pace more relaxed and more allowance for character developments and sidestories.Tenna' ento lye omenta!

Rose Cotton

12-17-2003, 08:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I stared mesmerized at the credits and when I finally wandered into the parking lot, it was as if I was ripped from one world to another, and not altogether willingly. I looked around and began asking myself what the cars and pavement were doing there. Very strange. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I felt the same exact way. I didn't want to leave. I really was prepared to say at the theater the rest of the day. (this is after the midnight showing)I loved this movie. I think the best part was being around so many fans. For the other two films I hadn't gone to the opening shows so I was never with the hard-core fans. But this time I was right in the mists of people who just wanted a good show. They cheered when Elrond brought Anduril, when Theoden said that Rohan would come to the aid of Gondor (even though we all knew he would), and whenever Sam did something heroic.These are parts of the film I personaly enjoyed:SAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sean Astin deserves so much praise! His protrayal of Sam is just incredible. I even don't mind the part where Frodo sends Sam away. I understood that it was supposed to get Frodo and Gollum alone, increase the tension, and to make Sam's appearance all the more exiting. SHELOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She was wonderful! Terrifying! Spectacular! I thought she was so creepy and her fight was Sam was all that I could have hoped for. And when Sam thought that Frodo was dead I cried for the first time in any movie.Mount Doom! Elijah's acting here was beautiful and puts into perspective his whole journey. This part was exactly as I pictured it.PIPPIN! Wow! I have been waiting for this for so long and Billy delivers. The sequence when Pippin is singing over shots of Faramir riding to battle is so chilling!I also enjoyed Denethor's part. The pyre scene was great! And the Witch King death was just as I pictured it.The only things that I didn't like was the absence of the Houses of Healing and the Mouth of Sauron. I also think there should have been a bit more Merry.By the way, did anyone else notice that two of the Gondorian children looked alot like two of the Rohan refugees who looked remarkibly like hobbit children!! I didn't see PJ though. I assume that he has a cameo in this movie. I'm going to see the movie again on Friday so I'll have a better opinion of the whole movie.

Beruthiel

12-17-2003, 08:37 PM

There simply aren't enough words to describe how I am feeling right now. Awe would have to be one. ROTK blew me away, I have never felt so many different emotions from just watching one movie. Another word would be Sadness, it is the end of these movies and the end of the journey.I think ROTK was a beautiful movie that did what it was meant to do, complete the journey. I never felt any dissapointment throughout the entire film. I was either open-mouthed or crying during those 3 and half hours. Everything was done to perfection and any doubts I had when I walked into the cinema were erased and I'm actually annoyed at myself for thinking that PJ wouldn't be able to pull this off. But he did, and he did it brilliantly. There were so many moments which really stood out to me. The opening scene with Deagol and Smeagol and his change into gollum was fascinating. Any scene that Pippin or Merry were in was fantastic as well, I cried (even more than I was already) when Pippin left with Gandalf. The look on Merry's face broke my heart. Minas Tirith was extremely well done. I don't know why but I really loved the lighting of the beacons, those amazing sweeping shots were beautiful. When Faramir rode off to that suicide mission and all you could hear was Pippin singing was a brilliant scene. Eowyn and Merry against the Witch King is another favourite. Of course, Frodo and Sam on Mount Doom was... see the loss for words yet again. It was just so heart breaking, yet to see these two together, "At the end of all things" it made me cry even though I knew they'd be alright.All the battles were great, regardless of Legolas' over-the-top stunt. I may sound rather gory but I was so glad PJ put in the catupulting of the soldier's heads. I really wanted that to be in the movie so thank you PJ!! The Ride of the Rohirrim was great but I agree with some of you that Theoden's death wasn't as sad as it should have been. I admit, I did cry but I wanted to see Eomer grieve for him.Faramir and Eowyn's love story would have been nice but I understand PJ not putting it in. The pacing of the film was good and putting in this or the Houses of Healing may have shortened time for other scenes. But without a doubt, the best part of the ENTIRE film was when Sam got home and said that amazing line..."Well, I'm back..." Briliant stuff.

The Only Real Estel

12-17-2003, 09:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Was I the only one who was somewhat shocked by the change in the Frodo/Sam/Gollum story, where Frodo sends Sam away? Not to mention the fact that Sam actually goes? I was kind of disappointed by that, though it worked in the end.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Did Sam have much of a choice? Gollum had already convinced Frodo that Sam was going to take the Ring, & that he'd been porking out on what little food they had. It's not like Frodo would've allowed him to come anyway. This was truly one of my least favorite parts of the entire movie . It really tore me up to see it, especially because of the way that Frodo & Sam always stuck together & found a way to get things doen in the books . I was also a bit suprised at the battle. Seriously, there was...barely any . I'd been hearing 'oh! it's going to be better than Helm's Deep! oh! it's going to be massive & awesome', & really, I wasn't all that impressed by it. You could see even less than the first two movies, & there just wasn't enough of it...there was more running & retreating than anything. I just knew there would be that one lame moment when Arwen turns back...I just knew it. I was kind've hoping against hope that it wouldn't be there, that somehow PJ would find a way to make it work, but that never really happened. Better than her jumping out of the boat as they shove off I suppose...And what's this about Arwen's life being tied to the Ring? Really, that is a little-er-a lot to much for me to swallow. But after all of that I will say that I thought it was a great movie (& certainly worth my money!), but it'll probably take me another time or two to warm up to it a bit more .

Meneltarmacil

12-17-2003, 09:52 PM

Well, I thought this movie was the best of the three, and very touching indeed. Mount Doom especially. I know I may have not wanted it to be changed at first, but now that I've seen it, I think that it was the most emotional moment of the whole movie.One complaint though... I know the whole Gollum/Smeagol scene was good, but they sholud have scrapped it in favor of the Voice of Saruman.Other than that, the movie was absolutely magnificent.

The Only Real Estel

12-17-2003, 09:59 PM

Ah good point about the Mt. Doom scene there, Meneltarmacil. I think Jackson realized that to have Gollum simply fall of the edge while celebrating would've come across as a little to corny, so I don't mind the change. Still, he had me totally freaked out that he'd have Frodo push Gollum in!

Tar-Alcarin

12-17-2003, 10:00 PM

Now, I hate legolas, but you have to admit, that stunts he pulled on the oliphant just rocked. any ways, i loved it. Iwas better than the Fellowship was and certainly better than TTT. But I was jumping up and down in my seat before the battle of Pelennor. I really liked the part where Denethor jumps to his death. But the best scene of all the films was the lighting of the beacons. That was just amazing. It could not have been better than it was. One of the people i went with was sobbing so much we got stares coming out of the theater. I could go on and on but i cant and wont. One more thing, Shelobs cave was cool, so was the beacon of Minas Morgul. Oh, and pippen singing to Denethor while they rode into death was so artistic. I will say no more.

faenaduial

12-17-2003, 11:52 PM

After reading these posts I feel like I am the only one who was majorly disappointed in this movie.I read the spoilers and was prepared for most of the big changes: no scouring of the Shire, no Mouth of Sauron, no Saruman, or so I thought.Here are the things I had a major problem with:FRODO SENDS SAM AWAY! I'm sorry, this is just totally against character.ARWEN WILL DIE IF THE RING IS NOT DESTROYED! Why - since when is Arwen's life tied to the ring.GANDALF BEATS DENETHOR WITH HIS STAFF! This again is totally against character. Not only does he beat him with the staff in one scene, he basically casts knocks him back on the funeral pyre later in the movie.I'm sorry I know some changes are necessary to make a movie entertaining. Things that are great on the written page don't always transfer well onto the screen, but I could find no good reason for any of these changes.I was very disappointed. I loved the first two films even though they had a few changes I didn't agree with. I was thrilled that such an amazing job was done in bringing the books to life. I just didn't feel that this movie did justice to RotK.I did love all the performances by the actors. All of them did a terrific job and I thought Elijah, Sean and Andy were amazing.I think in a few days I will try to see the movie again. Maybe the second time I will warm up to it. Its very hard not to keep comparing the movies to the books when you've been reading them for the last thirty years.

Bill the Pony

12-18-2003, 12:44 AM

What a movie! I'm sure I would have cried through the whole thing if not for the buffoonish audience in attendance! I wanted to strangle half of them - laughing in serious scenes and making asinine comments the whole way through!!!! Gaarrrrgh! I could deal with Frodo telling Sam to leave in the context of PJ's interpretation of the characters. Arwen, however, could have just gone to the Havens for all I cared! Those valuable minutes could have been spent on the Mouth of Sauron or the Houses of Healing...or even Eowyn/Faramir, if there had to be a sappy love scene.Visually, it was magnificent, and the acting was quite fine. My main beef: where was the music? That was what I really missed in this movie - they must have waited until the last minute to tell Shore what he had to do or something, because the score was just not up to the rest of the movie. New thread here? I do have much more to say about it (being an edjumicated musician and all).Overall, great movie, and I'll certainly see it again (sans idiotic audience)

Dininziliel

12-18-2003, 01:33 AM

I have said on another thread that if people leave the theatre more taken with the themes--love, faith, forgiveness, the inescapable wages of fear and lust for power--that much could be forgiven. I am a very grateful Tolkien "fanatic" tonight.I'll try to keep this short (but warn you it is still long ), so here go the non-chronological bullets in two categories.What worked/was brilliant/what I'm grateful for: *Gimli finally getting his dignity back while retaining his movie function as comic relief. *Aragorn's battle speech was not just another rehashing of Braveheart. I found myself moved by it. *Sam's very human reactions to the stress and extreme hurt, which made his decision to return to Frodo a wonderful underscoring of the book's themes. *Gandalf telling Pippin about passing from this world to the next. Gave the aforementioned themes much needed clout. *Merry & Pippin's deep friendship. *Sam & Frodo's friendship. *The bravery of Jackson and actors to show innocent affection of friendship. *The Dead while in the cave/castle. *Faramir's scene with his father--"Then you wish it were me instead of Boromir . . ." *Famamir and his small army leaving Minas Tirith. *The forging, giving and unsheathing of Anduril. *Gollum's embodiment of sheer and utter self-abandonment to the Ring. (If I ever need an inducement to stay with natural highs, I need only recollect his face in a couple of scenes.) *That Jackson, Walsh, Boyens kept most of the classic, must-have (IMO) lines that define and give scope and profundity to the story--the best example being the last line in the movie. *Boyd's performance and part--the singing-battle montage, oath to Denethor . . . *The Rohirrim--Theoden's rousing speech and then their galloping attack. The thought occurred to me, "Now I know why Grima cried at Isengard." *Astin's, Wood's, Monaghan's, Mortensen's, McKellan's, Otto's, Hill's, and Serkis'/Pixar's? performances. *Frodo's inner struggle with the Ring at the Crack of Doom. *Frodo's decision to opt for life instead of death when he grabs Sam's hand. *The editing and lack of glaring continuity gaffes. *The songs in Tolkien's languages. *The credits.Things to do differently/things missing: *Shelob could have been the more disgusting and bloated horror described in the book. *No Saruman/Grima--it was as if Jackson, Walsh & Boyens couldn't figure out what to do and so ignored it, hopefully so they'd have more time to think and get it right in the EE. *No 3rd palantir to more fully explain Denethor's descent into madness through despair. They got the pride right, though. *Unless I spaced out, the more descriptive name "Paths of the Dead" was never mentioned. It was always referred to by its more obscure name. Seems like a wasted natural chance for tension. *Eowyn & Faramir--too fast, too convenient; there has to be more in the EE. *Gollum setting Sam up w/lembas theft instead of the wonderful scene where Sam is startled awake, thinks Gollum is pawing Frodo, believes the worst and ruins the last chance Gollum has for redemption. This would was another place where tension and pathos in the story would have worked onscreen. *Same strange dismissal of another natural book tension/pathos element--Mouth of Sauron comes out and sneeringly displays the mithril coat and Frodo's clothes. The fact that the West fights despite believing all is truly lost was key to the story; however, the point made by the shot of their being surrounded and outnumbered was okay. *Jump-cutting back and forth between Frodo-Gollum struggling with Ring and Batttle of Cormallen during the very climax of the story (and all 3 movies) was frustrating and undercut the effectiveness of both scenes for me. I almost shouted, "Stop doing that!" *The deletion of the line, "It will not occur to Sauron's mind that anyone who possesses the Ring would seek to destroy it." This could have been easily included in one of at least two places either by Aragorn or Gandalf, and, would have added to understanding the way Sauron/Evil works. The changes in RotK didn't affect the story, or me , as much as TT. I loved FotR and could accept the changes there. I feel they did an even better job at staying faithful to the story's themes and meaning and delivering a wonderful movie in the process.So, I too, wish to thank Peter Jackson, the actors, writers, and everyone connected with the making of the film, for what they did for me as well as the audience today. It was a joy and a sorrow. It brought to our sad and insane 4th Age world something it needs very much right now--the story of Love and fear struggling within all of us, and that Love is the better choice . . . no matter what happens around us.

Lyta_Underhill

12-18-2003, 01:50 AM

Alas, it is late, and I, like others, am overawed at the whole thing, but I'll add some comments upon a first watching...Wonderful Smeagol/Deagol scenes at the beginning, with Smeagol's transformation to Gollum. Really captured the torture of the murder with which he began his ownership of the Ring...very real!I'm not sure what to think of the whole Frodo/Sam/Gollum frameshift. I just didn't think Sam would really leave when Frodo told him to go. Not sure what to make of that yet...Paths of the Dead: awesome! Esp. the coalescing cities of the Dead and Aragorn's coolness/firm power when surrounded--mirrors his demeanor when he is surrounded at the Black Gate as well. "I keep no hope for myself." What a guy! He seems to have gotten over all that indecision quite nicely!Some might find this strange, but the part that brought the most tears to my eyes was Pippin singing. The montage with Denethor sending Faramir away to a hopeless mission while Pippin sings a mournful sounding song brought me closer to crying than anything else in the movie, including the Grey Havens. (I told my husband about this, and he said wryly, "I didn't think his singing was that bad!") *snerk!*I was so happy to hear my ..."end of all things" line come from Frodo's lips when they are trapped in the island in the sea of lava at Mt. Doom. Also the "Naked in the Dark" scene was sublimely done--Elijah Wood impresses me more and more! Also, thought "foaming Frodo" after the spider's sting was appropriate (husband wants to see action figure of this, strangely enough)--the whole Shelob experience was frightening, but I thought Frodo flopped about in too many spiderweb beds. Could have just been altered timesense. That tunnel seemed to go on FOREVER!!!! (I'm sure Frodo felt that way too!)Also, still debating the "most intense" performance, but for sheer power of dark despair, Denethor has it hands down! He is as imposing as his despair and they seem to physically and spiritually drag him down in an epic way. Denethor is larger than life and his death (modified slightly but not much) is fitting. One thing that REALLY impressed me and that I believe someone else may have mentioned was the looks on the faces of the combatants. The Rohirrim, the Gondorians at the Gates of Minas Tirith, the soldiers at the Black Gate, everyone! It has a resonance when Aragorn gives his "today we fight" speech at the Black Gate.I did miss the obvious dramatic moment of the Mouth of Sauron casting Frodo's belongings upon the ground in front of Gandalf, Aragorn, Pippin, et. al. (Merry, too!)Also, I lost some of the action in the battle scenes due to really quick panning, or maybe I was just too close to the screen. There were sound problems with the print I watched as well. One last note: when Pippin catches the bouquet at Sam's wedding, why does he look over at Merry? There are lots more things to be said, but it is late and I cannot think of them at the moment! Thanks for letting me rant a bit!Cheers, LytaP.S. Dressed in Frodo costume and one person recognized it...there's hope yet! (Made Aragorn costume for husband in about 3 minutes...record time! No one knew he was Aragorn though. Oh well!)

burrahobbit

12-18-2003, 01:54 AM

Everything was too close together.

Diamond18

12-18-2003, 02:58 AM

I loved it, and the more I think about it the more I like it. Good night.

Quirkette

12-18-2003, 03:24 AM

Naturally, I loved the scene where Gollum sez scornfully that he had been sneaking! I loved the beginning. Smeagol was clearly such a naive, simple soul, and then we see him coming apart. It's like mental illness and addiction and disease--it's so haunting when the fish song from "TT" is cruely echoed like that....the music was sooo good there, too. They really ought to give an Oscar to Andy Serkis. I was floored to see Sam actually carry Frodo. It was so cool. I love when Eowyn said "I am no man!" That also got applause where I was. And I think I'll end by saying that the scariest guy in the film for me was the painted and decorated and weird-looking man on the oliphaunt. He looked way savage. [ 4:42 AM December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Quirkette ]

burrahobbit

12-18-2003, 03:30 AM

He started out by murdering Deagol. That is not so naive and simple.

Quirkette

12-18-2003, 03:39 AM

Obviously I meant he was naive and all before he saw the ring!

burrahobbit

12-18-2003, 03:42 AM

He'd only seen it for a minute before the murdering started.

GreyIstar

12-18-2003, 11:21 AM

Quite simply the best movie Ive seen. Forget changes, missing parts that will be in EE, and all else. This is an emotionally exhausting film that filled my eyes with tears of joy and sorrow. Never has any movie effected me on that kind of level and quite simply I yearn to see it again like Gollum wants the Ring.

BeeBombadil

12-18-2003, 11:45 AM

Loved: 1. Lighting the beacons 2. Attack of the Rohirrim at Pellenor 3. Attack of the fell beasts on Minas Tirith 4. the eagles 5. Frodo's desperation 6. Sam's heroism 7. Faramir's sadness with his father 8. The Army of the Dead 9. Sam's reaction to Frodo ordering him to "go home". It was just heartbreaking. Nice acting, Mr. Astin.Hated: 1. what the feck did they do to Denethor???! He wasn't an insane pig and they made him into one. This was the one part of this movie that REALLY ****ed me off. 2. No House of Healing???! 3. Arwen being tied to the ring...since when? 4. How little was made of Eowyn's defending Theoden...was almost a dramatic after-thought. 5. The flower petals floating down at Aragorn's crowning...ok, where were they coming from, as the Citadel is at "the top floor". 6. The whole Grey Havens...could have been so much better. It felt hurried and tacked-on. 7. Many many wobbly CG shots where you could actually see a character's feet slipping on nothing. Shoddy and rushed.

Alatariel

12-18-2003, 11:57 AM

I was absolutely blown away by RotK. It was honestly one of the most amazing movies I have ever seen - I can't really find words to express how it made me feel. I hope in the EE they make a bigger deal about Aragorn entering Minas Tirith - after all the movie is called "Return of the King," and they just kind of skipped over his return. I also hope that they have more with Eowyn and Faramir - it would help round out their characters.RotK is definitley one of the best movies I have ever seen, and I can't wait to see it again!

GreyIstar

12-18-2003, 12:01 PM

"3. Arwen being tied to the ring...since when?"Since she is now mortal and cannot take the ships to Valinor. Hence she is bound to the fate of the Ring like all mortals are.

BeeBombadil

12-18-2003, 01:13 PM

No GreyIstar, that's not what I mean..yes, all fates are tied to the One Ring. But this movie makes it seem that she's physically ill and Elrond states that she is dying because of the One Ring. Nowhere in the book was this intimated...this was pure Jackson and it didn't work for me.

Alatariel

12-18-2003, 01:18 PM

I had the same impression, Bee. BTW, did anyone spot where PJ was in the movie (since he appears in all of his movies)? I thought I might have seen him as a rider of Rohan, but it went by so quickly I couldn't be sure.

GreyIstar

12-18-2003, 01:42 PM

I didn't get that imprerssion at all. I took Elrond saying she was dying as she is now mortal. All mortals are dying its just a matter of when.PJ's cameo was one of the scenes that hit the cutting floor. He is a Corsair. It will be in the EE. I guess we know now that PJ isn't vain.[ 3:13 PM December 18, 2003: Message edited by: GreyIstar ]

Diamond18

12-18-2003, 02:10 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention. Peter Jackson's cameo came as one of the Corsairs of Umbar.Edit: Oops, I was on Page 1. Sorry. But I did see PJ, his cameo isn't just in the EE.[ 3:12 PM December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

Bill the Pony

12-18-2003, 02:11 PM

I thought I saw a very PJish Corsair for a brief instant...will be watching more closely next time!

Diamond18

12-18-2003, 02:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 5. The flower petals floating down at Aragorn's crowning...ok, where were they coming from, as the Citadel is at "the top floor". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Um... that was from the White Tree.

The Only Real Estel

12-18-2003, 02:25 PM

I to thought I saw PJ giving orders aboard one of the ships, so did my two friends... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No 3rd palantir to more fully explain Denethor's descent into madness through despair. They got the pride right, though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps it'll make it's way to the EE? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Since she is now mortal and cannot take the ships to Valinor. Hence she is bound to the fate of the Ring like all mortals are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I also thought that she was ill (the movie guide that's been mentioned around here occasionally said that she was), & that she would die if the Ring wasn't destroyed.

BeeBombadil

12-18-2003, 02:54 PM

Diamond 18, Umm, the White Tree was quite far away from where they were standing, and the petals were falling from above. There was no wind machine going.I thought it was a ridiculous Hollywood touch and because it was so Hollywoodish, as opposed to most of the movie, it really stuck out. Blech.

Mattius

12-18-2003, 03:26 PM

I really enjoyed the film and it brought together the whole trilogy making it feel like one continuous tale.My favourite part is without a doubt the Muster of Rohan and their appearence on the battle filed. There is only one thing better than a battle and that it the build up to a battle. Theoden riding down his line with his sword and hitting his men's spears was brilliant!The EE will include a scene with Sauraman and also I saw a few pictures on the official movie website that did not make it into the final cut. These were Ewoywn(sp?) in the Houses of Healing, and Eomer mourning Theoden's death on the batte field.Roll on EE!![ 4:27 PM December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Mattius ]

Meela

12-18-2003, 03:28 PM

It was only just earlier that it hit me that I had not seen Denethor and a Palantir together. That sucked! Denethor isn't Denethor without the Palantir!Oh, and the petals were a gorgeous touch to the scene. Much better than Arwen's game of peekaboo. Although it was very touching to see her and Aragorn's reunion.I never new the Eye of Sauron was a giant spotlight...The Dead should have been more grey and less green. But that was a wonderful scene where Aragorn leapt out of the boat and they whooshed out.

lindil

12-18-2003, 03:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Everything was too close together. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.A rare downs moment. Burrahobbit and I agree. It got absurd after awhile, You open the Black gate and there was the mountain and Barad dur. Heck Legolas should have just gotten an elvish sling shot and...OK to start more generally:I was really hoping to enjoy this as much as i did FotR, but PJ as I hate to have to say, fell prey yet again to the lure of the ONE PEN. His editorial one.In short where we hear JRRT's writing and see his scenes it is great. A few of the Minas Tirith battle amplifications were very well done as well. Some of that was awesome. The Rohirrim crashing into the orcs [although the real build up to all of that was largely replaced by the horrific, 'what do we owe Gondor' garbage 'Theoden' was made to utter, was extremely well done. Finally we see the real Rohan. However having them coming as a suprise creeping silently through the Pellenor [oops that's right PJ had some great reason for leaving that out ] would have added much to it.But as the movie went on the great moments for me were consistently overridden by the 'adaptations'.'Denethor' was a complete disaster imo. Worse than the 'Faramir' adaptation. Oh well, like father like son. The lack of any other nobles and feifs in 'Gondor' was really sad. Why not another one of those map scenes wherein someone can say, while pointing...'3,000 from Dol Amroth and Imrahil will lead them, 500 from the Ringlo Vale and hopefully Dervorin will lead them etc. this lack reached the height of absudity when after 'Denethor's 'murder/suicide [see <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002542#000004" TARGET=_blank>here</A> for more on that splendid scene] we finally get to the 'fellowship' alone occupying the Hall of Kings in Minas Tirith. How goofy.At least 'Theoden' finally gets to act like a king of 'Rohan' before the Battle, that was refreshing. His death scene though, while wordred somewhat faithfully betrayed fwe signs of a person about to die. Quick eye movements and a few other details I do not recall, and generally way to strong a voice all undercut the moving scene though. And no passing the banner to 'Eomer'. completely lame. But I guess as PJ has said 'it does not get the ring to mordor', so it was out. The whole 'Sam/Gollum/Frodo' thing was exactly the kind of absurdity I have come to expect from PJ, and for which he does not disappoint. He has a compulsion to waste screen time with non-existent plot lines and then cut corners with things that beg to be shown [Imrahil, the Dunedain of the North and on and on].However in the Ext. DVD while most of my criticisms will sadly remain unfixable, I am sure the quick trip through Mordor will be suitably amplified, and we will be able to see them cast of their orc gear. Apparently 'Gollum' falling in the midst of his cappering was not hollywood enough for PJ. 'Frodo' has to fall as well [and 'Denthor'... . I can understand leaving out the Scouring, just as could Bombadil and Barrow Downs, As much as they all really have their place inthe story, I concede that somethings will have to go, but to have everyone come back and drink ale and wink at the quaintness of the shire just plain did not work at all for me. It will be a skip scene for me for sure. It would have been far better for the company to go straight to Rivendell have collect frodo and then to the Havens and end with Sam coming to Bag End.And as the final nail in the coffin for book readers 'Sam' gets to walk in the wrong door.So instead of the door of bag-End closing where it all began in The Hobbit, we get #3 bagshot row.imo...I truly hope the Extended version makes it all more watchable, but I must confess that sense of marring overtook my sense of enjoyment. I will just have to practice my latent schizophrenia and forget LotR is an already written masterpeice well and lovingly etched into my heart and soul in order to enjoy PJ's 'Variations on themes from the LotR'.Newbies [to the books]- in this case you are greatly to be envied as what would be a great film had it no literary precedent will for many [not most I am sure] be an extremely exspensive bit of Fan-fction gone amok. Final grades: FotR - B EXT FotR - A- TTT - D EXT TTT C RotK CAnd by the way, lest I be seen as being a books only 'purist', one my favorite scenes in TTT is the Elves arriving at Helm's Deep. It works in a way that for me, many of PJ's other bits of tinkering do not.Thank goodness I could not care less about what happens to King Kong.[ 4:38 PM December 18, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Diamond18

12-18-2003, 03:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Diamond 18, Umm, the White Tree was quite far away from where they were standing, and the petals were falling from above. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I believe they meant it to be seen as coming from the White Tree, even if it looked a little incongruent with where the tree was placed. I was just addressing your comment that it came from nowhere.Personally, regardless of the physics of it, as a visual I thought it was quite beautiful.

Fíriel of Ao Tea Roa

12-18-2003, 03:40 PM

Well, I am back again.And my heart is heavy. Having seen "Return of the King" for the second time now, I think its editing is unusually sloppy. I was never much of a nitpicker; I loved "Fellowship" from the first screening, and the same happened with the extended version of "Two Towers". But the theater release of "Return of the King" has so many mistakes! For the first time, one can clearly see when scale double have been used. When Gandalf talks to Pippin about death as another journey, one can see that his sword is fake: it shows the air bubbles of a plastic sword, not the battle scars of a steel sword. And Aragorn´s speech when he has been made king is really weak, and his speech before the battle does not stand out enough. Missing music support (for me this speech has always been the strongest moment of the trailer) probably?The beacon on our highest peak Aoraki/Mount Cook was too much, everyone loved and we were ripped out of Middle-Earth, back into a National Geographic documentation. Darn, I was just so enchanted..And then the storyline alterations: what about Sam not just crying after Frodo´s speech but actually TURNING BACK! What about Aragorn´s healing hands? What about Sam´s family living in Bag-Ends?I have enormous hope for the extended version, where sidestories can be included. Merry pledging his service to Theoden.The grievance of the journey into Mordor- why not showing the shedding of Frodo´s and Sam´s orc armour? A grieving son (Eomer). More elvish. And what about a narrative about the later adventures of the main characters ..As some of these scenes were in the trailer, I live with hope. And re-live the better moments of the cinematic version. Pippin heartbreaking singing. Frodo´s "one cannot simply go back in time". ---------------Faenaduial, you are not alone.

doug*platypus

12-18-2003, 04:18 PM

Judged on its own, without any unfair comparisons to the book, this was an excellent movie. Worthy of having a place in my favourite movies of all time, although having only seen it once that may change. After all, I loved TTT the first time round! This movie goes now to join its fathers (such as Excalibur and The Empire Strikes Back), and even in their mighty company it shall not now be ashamed.Cheers to everyone who advised me to check the spoiler threads. Changes from the book could well have distracted me from enjoying what was an amazing event, although I have to say for the most part that the changes were few and well done. I'll go into much, much more depth on other threads, for years to come!It really did feel as though the journey had ended. I am really happy to have the wait over, to have finally seen the last installment of the Lord of the Rings movies. Wow, I do actually feel privileged to be saying that. They could never have lived up to the books, but Return of the King is just about as close as you could get in three hours. The Grey Havens alone was worth the $650 million, but it wouldn't have meant anything without all the incredible work done to build up to that point.I was crying my little heart out when Frodo had to leave, and I was very close to it many other times. The theme of friendship was superbly played. If ever a group of actors deserved to win an award together, it was the four Hobbits. Bless you laddies, your off-screen bond really shone through.Return of the King in general was done so well, I sometimes wondered whether the same director had made the last two films. Everything up until Pippin climbing the beacon was just exceptional. The movie had its bad moments, of course, but these were fewer and further between than before. Whatever gripes I will come up with, most of which will stem from my knowledge of the books, The Return of the King is an excellent movie and a credit to anyone that had anything to do with it. Especially Alan Lee!!I think that in a lot of ways, this movie really redeemed flaws that we had seen in the previous episodes. Characters in particular. Elrond, Arwen, Éowyn, Samwise and Aragorn were characters that from time to time (Aragorn) or every single time (Elrond!) I had cringed at. But they were all treated marvellously by the writing team, which I notice contained about six dialogue editors (is that new for the last installment?). The quality of acting in the film was absolutely superb, led by Ian McKellen, although hampered by Bernard Hill... grrr...Alas, all too many scenes were missing, and once again I think that Peter Jackson's priorities were sometimes askew. It will be a long wait for the extended edition! But unfortunately we still live in a time where even 3 hours is generous for a movie. I am so glad that DVDs are here so that we can enjoy some of the scenes that were, regretably cut. I also noticed a general tendency by the movie to go too far sometimes. For example, the prologue. Peter Jackson had it perfect right up until Déagol was murdered, and I felt he should have stopped there instead of droning on about the transformation into Gollum. He had already gotten his point across. Similarly, Théoden's speech before the charge at the Pelennor was a standout piece in the movie (and the only time that Hill lived up to my expectations). The Rohirrim were truly the most frightening thing on the battlefield. That aspect of them could not have been brought to life more skilfully. But after the chants of: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Death! Death! Death! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Jackson continued to lay it on, a bit too thick in my humble opinion. More talking from Théoden and a pitiful yell from Éowyn (it's in the eyes, Miranda, act with your eyes) took away from the impact of the moment.Lastly I have to say that no punches were pulled when dealing with the theme of death. Peter Jackson bravely took it on, bringing it out of the book superbly, and that's not something that most popular movies will have the nuts to do.Bravo Peter, you've finally done us proud, grown as a director, and even in your characters! Who would have thought that the belching yokel from Bree would one day rise to become captain of a Corsair ship? Kudos.

doug*platypus

12-18-2003, 04:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'Sam' gets to walk in the wrong door <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> lest I be seen as being a books only 'purist' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Err... too late! Those two sentences can't possibly be in the same post! I realise that it is very difficult to open one's mind to other interpretations, and to allow a book so near and dear to be tampered with. That's something that I've had to come to terms with during the course of these three movies. I find that The Return of the King makes this a lot easier than was previously possible, but it also has to be a shift in attitude. If you get tied down to the little things you can't possibly ever be happy with anything these movies has got to offer. Wrong door?! Let it go... Besides, there is no such thing as the wrong door. It's a different door. The door to his house and his Gaffer's house. Hardly cause for alarm.

mark12_30

12-18-2003, 05:13 PM

the real findorfin

12-18-2003, 06:17 PM

Firstly, I will say that it was stunning! And I truly mean that. Even after all the problems I found in the film, it has still left me with a sense of awe. The ending, from the lava shots onwards made the trilogy for me.BITS I DID NOT CARE FOR: -"Saruman? Saruman? Here boy!" where is he -I wished Pippin had repeated Sauron's words like in the book. - Legolas knowing ore about the 'Evil Mountain' than Aragorn and the elf knowing too much in general - Gimli, stop being funny!!! - Gandalf hitting Denethor - Not enough of Faramir, he was great in this film (it showed why he was soo mean in TTT, he was trying to attain his father's love) - Lack of Palantir with Denethor - Lack of Palantir with Aragorn - Lack of time spent on Cirith Ungol (but the scenes that were there were great!) - Creating an orc figure head, get lost! - No Gandalf vs Witch King, I was waiting for it - Not enough time between Pelennor and the Black Gate - Not enough ground between Aragorn and the Black Gate - No Mouth of Sauron - the Lighthouse, you know what I mean BITS I LOVED: - Deagol/Smeagol scene - Pippin with Palantir - Beacons, wow - The Citadel, nice place to live and lovely views - Corsairs and Haradrim, cool - Theoden's speech gave me the biggest shivers ever - The whole of Frodo/Sam/Gollum stuff, amazing - The whole Merry and Pippin scenes together and alone. Edoras was heart-breaking and Pippin, WHAT A VOICE! - EAGLES!! - Samath Naur was just the pinnacle of the film, I though it was beautiful - Best shot in the film, Frodo with the lava behind - The Grey Havens gave me tears, in the book that bit saddens me but this was heart-rending.It may seem from this that I disliked the film but as I said before, I loved it. In the words of the comic-book shop guy from the simpsons, "Best film ever!"

Annalaliath

12-18-2003, 07:10 PM

I liked the movie. It was well done and I did cry at times. Now the only thing that got me was that they didn't explain what was going on with Arwen, so I had to, at 4:30 in the mourning. But any way I thought that the two or three false endings were a bit annoying, 'cause I had to try my hardest not to yell at the screen. An then there was also this guy pretending to be peter pan with the errrr errr er errrrrs everyone else started to yell at him. But that is that there are always stupid people in crowds. I liked the intro. of Smeagol and Deagol at the beginning, that was cool, and then the slow transformation of Smeagol into Gollum.Gimli was the comic relief as always. I liked the book Deanther better than the film one, I wanted to hit him. Over all I say good.Edit: You must understand the creation of the CG characters is hard, and they did a great texturing job, But one just can’t make everything perfect. Until we have batter software and stuff CG is always going to look weird. They always move strange and so they floating Cg characters is just gonna happen any way. Hey that is one of the things I hate about most CG is that the characters don’t look like they are actually touching their environment. Rant Rant, the Computer animation major goes…..I have come to the conclusion that the movies are nothing like the books but a good story all in them selves. So, from a movie standpoint I liked it, but from a book stand point yuck![ 11:51 AM December 21, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

Diamond18

12-18-2003, 08:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> - Best shot in the film, Frodo with the lava behind <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree. That would have made a very nice movie poster.

Lily Bracegirdle

12-18-2003, 09:32 PM

I liked the movie, which seems to be the most positive thing I can say after seeing it only once. I didn't really care for FotR the first time I saw it, but now I adore it. I hated TTT at first, but like it a lot now. I'm sure in the fullness of time I'll love this movie too, but when it was over all I could say was:"My butt is numb, yet the movie should have been longer."Whoever said this is a 3.5 hour trailer for the extended edition hit the nail on the head. Lots of good stuff, but not enough. Plot threads and characters left dangling. Rushed action. No Houses of Healing. Things I loved: Frodo's suffering. Sam's raw intensity. Pippin. Every Pippin scene. Gandalf. Especially with Pippin. The EAGLES! Eowyn and the Witch King.Things I hated: Sloth from "The Goonies" leading the ground troops of Mordor. Smeagol's transformation from white trash hobbit to Gollum took too long. Aragorn and Faramir's goofy battle tactics. Denethor. What a twisted husk. No memorable music.The film was well done, the acting was even better than before and the effects were great. Yet something is still missing. I'm still grateful to everyone involved in the production of these films. Thanks, guys. I'm sure I'll love the EE.-Lily

Mattius

12-19-2003, 03:08 AM

Yeah, why was the elephant man commanding the armies of orcs at ground level?

lindil

12-19-2003, 09:16 AM

Doug your reviews seemed aimed not only at recording your impressions [ the avowed puropse of the thread], but of criticising those who have the misfortune [and I am clearly one] of experiencing the Movies in a very different way. I have no bitterness towards anyone who can seperate the films so completely from the books that the major re-characterizations and plot changes do not wrankle, good for you, or to whomever can acheive such a feat!But why attack those who wished to enjoy the movie more, found they could not? Is there a sub-text to the official thread saying, worshipers of PJ only? or only nice comments allowed? You offered your critiques I noticed, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Alas, all too many scenes were missing, and once again I think that Peter Jackson's priorities were sometimes askew. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why then turn around attack mine? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Wrong door?! Let it go<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>To which I would say, some one feels differently about the Movies than you do! Let it go! p.s. Question: And how can the following two quotes possibly be in the same post ? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Whatever gripes I will come up with, most of which will stem from my knowledge of the books <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Judged on its own, without any unfair comparisons to the book... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> italics mine Answer: because they are for you, like my 'contradictory' quotes, describing two different aspects of one experience. One of the cardinal principles of posting here is that one does not invalidate anothers subjective experiences. You disagree - fine. You state it for all to read - fine. But branding someone as having yet to really 'get it' or as not having 'sufficiently adjusted their attitude' for optimal viewing and you just strayed well into the zone of [whether it was meant ot not] an attack on a fellow member.I take the trouble to address this point fully so hopefully as to not have to encounter it again [in this thread at least!]. It is a recurring theme in the Movie Forum but folks do need to be tolerant of others experiences.and btw, I agree that Alan Lee deserves a lion's share of credit for not just the succesful aspescts of III but of I and II as well.respectfully, L[ 10:17 AM December 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Catherine

12-19-2003, 09:19 AM

I loved it all except: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> No House of Healing???! Arwen being tied to the ring...since when? How little was made of Eowyn's defending Theoden...was almost a dramatic after-thought. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Other than that I loved the movie it was so great!!!

Finwe

12-19-2003, 09:22 AM

I don't care about any of the changes, that movie was bloody brilliant! Peter Jackson is the most brilliant director on the face of the planet!!!! By the end of the movie, I was bawling fit to burst, and my boyfriend had to literally wipe tears off of my face.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

12-19-2003, 04:23 PM

ACTION beats CHARACTERS - (Peter Jackson?)

pandora

12-19-2003, 08:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ACTION beats CHARACTERS - (Peter Jackson?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"Characterisation means CONFLICT!" - Dave Sim parodying Marvel Comics.

Iarwain

12-19-2003, 11:36 PM

"Well, I'm back."Returning from absence, let my first post hail the best film of 2003. Congratulations PJ, you did your job well. Best Picture (and Director) will fall like a ripe apple, come Oscar time.A true masterpiece. I think it really made up for TTT, and did an exceptional job at compressing the extraordinary plot of RotK into a movie as long and detailed as possible. Indeed, perhaps some details could have been changed or saved from the book, but this time I think the minutia of the thing are just that: unimportant details (in film form). Beautiful, Iarwain

Alucard

12-19-2003, 11:42 PM

I loved this film despite the changes. ROTK had everything: epic, intense scenes that made your heart pound, scenes that made you want to cry, light hearted parts that just made you smile, scenes that were frightening, and heartfelt scenes that displayed the main themes of the story, friendship and dedication. I think ROTK had more visually stunning shots than the first two films. The Rohirrim charging the fields, Aragorn’s army being surrounded at the Black Gate, the destruction of Barad-dur and the armies of Mordor, Frodo and Sam on the lava with the eagles approaching… the list could go on forever. Minas Tirith itself was absolutely gorgeous, one of my favorite aspects of the film.I must say I disagree with those who think the music was sub par this time around. I thought the soundtrack was brilliant, both in its powerful moments (Mount Doom for instance), and the lighter, sorrowful parts (listen to the theme playing when Faramir and his men are riding out of Minas Tirith, before Pippin’s song). I think the visuals are so amazing in the really epic parts that the music kind of goes unnoticed to some.As far as characters go I must say that Sam is definitely my favorite. He really is the heart of the films. It broke my heart to see the look on his face when Frodo told him to go home, and I couldn’t help but smile when he killed that orc for his Gaffer! Pippin is a close second for favorite character, he was just so great in all of his scenes. I love the look on his face right after he lights the beacon. He so proud of himself until he realizes he’s not sure how he’s getting down without getting burned. The face he makes is so funny!I really only had a few gripes this time and none of them are too major. I was disappointed that there was no Gandalf/Witch King confrontation (especially since I saw this part many times in trailers and such), and that things seemed a bit rushed after the battle of Pelennor Fields was over. But my biggest complaint is that I really wish they handled “The Choices of Master Samwise” parts in a manner that was closer to the books. I was really looking forward to this scene because its one of my favorite chapters from the book, and I was expecting it to be the most emotional part of the film. But it was an excellent film nonetheless. I can’t wait to see it again so I can pick up more little details that I may have missed or forgotten.

Shenaran

12-20-2003, 12:27 AM

And I cry a bit at the end...and I rarely cry.The battle scenes were great and I like what they did with Frodo and Sam in Mordor...This seem to be a very tense movie, kept me on the edge of my chair...and that Spider looked so real...and I hate Spiders.Oh and the part where Denethor gets burned...thats kind of cool.Gandalf seemed a bit nicer in this one also.Now for my dislikes...PJ cut out a lot of scenes...which caused parts to make no or little sense.Where the hell did Sam get the ring I wonder??? unless I missed that...and why didn't they show him using it.And we already know about cutting out the scene with Saruman...And what is with lighting the fires as a signal...was that in the book...I don't remember...I remember a red arrow or something like that....And lighting the fires on the mountain top isn't that a bit cold and unrealistic.No House of healing and didn't show the romance between Eowyn and Faramir.I know more parts that were missing...like...humm...Scouring of the Shire Elronds SonsI wish that they had spoken more Elvish....or hell even more Black Speech.I hope some of the missing parts will be on the extended DVD...I think they will have to add at least two more hours...lol..

Bill the Pony

12-20-2003, 04:17 AM

Just saw it again...It comes across much differently the second time. The first time I was too blown away by the visuals to pay much mind to other stuff. This time, however, I noticed much more...#1 complaint: the ending - what is with all that fading!?!!?!? It was really irksome this time around (didn't love it the first time either)The music seemed better this time, but there are a few spots I still am not fond of. I think the orchestra could be put to better use in spots. However, there were some fine musical moments (the beacons music was perfect for that spot, and the Black Gate/Sammath Naur music towards the end was just right on ...but NOT the Gollum-dancing-with-ring stuff!)I doubt I'll be going a third time...at least for a week or so Two viewings just have left me a wee bit jaded. I'm gonna go read the books again instead.

BlingBlingtheWarriorElf

12-20-2003, 07:34 AM

ROTK was great. But what did they do to Frodo, they made him a nervous wreck, they made him tell Sam to go home! Since when was Arwen going to die from the ring, you knew that her fate was connected to the ring, if Sauron got it back, she would fall like a mortal, but not die.And there were no houses of healing, Merry and Eowyn didn't get hurt very badly, Gandalf didn't get to fight the Witch King, and they never told you that Farimir and Eowyn are in love.Other than those things, I Loved the movie. It was awesome. (Fae walks past the computer and whacks me over the heal )

Vardadurwen

12-20-2003, 02:27 PM

I have only seen the movie once so far and will obviously need to see it again to solidify my opinions about it; however these are my first impressions. I thought that PJ left way too much to the third movie. I mean, I don't really know how much differently he could done it, but I just felt that the first hour was just scene after scene crammed together. I swear, if you hadn't read the books you would be slightly lost. I did enjoy the transformation of Smeagol into Gollum. It was very very interesting to see that. Kudos to the makeup artists on that one; actually on everything really. I was glad that Pippin was allowed to shine in this movie and kind of redeem himself for being the fool throughout the first two movies. The entire scene where he is singing while Denethor eats and the soldiers ride in was one of the best sequences out of the entire three movies, I thought. It just...makes so much sense. At the end, I think the connection between Eowyn and Faramir needed to be explained. I mean, one minute she's hubba hubba for Aragorn and then the next she's smiling with Faramir whilst Aragorn greets his bride! And...was Elrond supposed to be there? I thought he didn't show because he never really approved of the whole thing. Okay, is anyone else irate over the fact that Gimli is given the role of comic relief? I mean, honestly! Especially when they're about to go into the Halls of the Dead - it's a solemn moment of decision, bravery and courage! But then...oh, there's Gimli the dwarf har har har. Speaking of the Halls of the Dead...I would have liked to have seen a bit more of that! It's one of my favorite parts in the books, that description of the journey taken and you can actually taste the fear. I thought they didn't portray how frightening that experience actually would be. And I thought the relationship between Legolas and Gimli could have been highlighted upon a bit more. I mean, it's true it was definitely expanded upon in TTT, but I would have liked to have seen a continuation of that; perhaps when they decide to go off and explore eachother's realms together at the end. This posting shows too much of the negative things I thought about the movie and I suppose that's not fair. I really did enjoy it for the most part. I was especially glad that they included Eowyn's line "I am no man." I was scared that scene was going to be butchered somehow, but it worked out very well. There were many moving moments aswell. When Merry and Pippin bid farewell at Rohan. When Frodo remembers his vial of light given to him and we hear Galadriel's voice - that's one of my favorite lines ("...our most beloved star..."). When Sam is talking about the Shire and Frodo can't remember any of it. When Pippin declares that "Eagles are coming!". When Gandalf says goodbye at the end - I mean, I just lost it; that whole scene was basically heartbreaking (although it was ruined for me by some extremely rude boys sitting next to me). I thought Sean Astin's performance was amazing. His genuine expressions of heartfelt dedication to his master were heart-wrenching. He was another character who shone in the movie. I would say Best Supporting Actor worthy. Another scene that was very well done was when Frodo is walking on the bridge instead of up the stairs. I thought that scene was very intense and properly displayed the kind of fear that Frodo and Sam would have felt. Now that I've written all this, I desperately want to see it again. Perhaps I'll have to edit this post or create a new one after seeing it again. My opinions might change. We shall see. And no one get me wrong, I did enjoy the film, all three of them. They are definitely epics. At this particular moment I would say FOTR is the best, then ROTK and TTT is definitely the weakest link. The books are far better, but the films capture some of the great themes contained in that timeless work.

mark12_30

12-20-2003, 11:23 PM

As I recall, in the book, the beacons were being lit as Gandalf and Pippin and Shadowfax were tearing overland toward Minas Tirith. And yes, they were on the mountaintops. "...Amon Din, and flame on Eilenach; and there they go speeding west: Nardol, Erelas, Min-Rimmon, Calenhad, and the Halfirien on the borders of Rohan."

randomhobbit42

12-21-2003, 12:47 AM

where were the rangers...? where were the flags of the king...? where were the man in the Shire...? Is this Lord of the Rings: the Peter Jackson film?....hmmm?

Gorwingel

12-21-2003, 02:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And as the final nail in the coffin for book readers 'Sam' gets to walk in the wrong door. So instead of the door of bag-End closing where it all began in The Hobbit, we get #3 bagshot row. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh, that bothered me so much When I first read the spoilers for the ending I assumed that they would be ending at Bag-End, but I was wrong. It would have been nice if they had ended at Bag-End and they should have ended there. But I guess the director decided that he did not have enough time to say to the audience that Frodo passed down Bag-End to Sam and his family, and so thus it had to end at the Gaffer's hole, the incorrect hole. But I don't know, it just bugs me.I also too thought that they seemed to be hurring through the story, and that is very odd for me to be saying that about a 3 1/2 hour film. For me it seemed like they spent 2 seconds with this charater, and then had to move to another charater, and so on and so on. This one seemed the most like Lord of the Rings: Cliff Notes to me. I still enjoyed it though, I thought that it was a really great, wonderful film, and an amazing achievement. Those were just my major gripes.

Kalimac

12-21-2003, 12:24 PM

Whew - saw it last night, now I can finally look at the board again.I'll leave detailed stuff for the individual character threads, but overall, just wanted to say that it was excellent. But too rushed, like a lot have said. I'm guessing the EE will take care of this - I got a lot of the same impression I first got with FOTR, that it was basically hopping from one climax to another. The FOTR EE took care of that - adding more mortar to the story, so to speak - and from all the loose threads left in this one (Eowyn and Faramir standing together at the end, but their relationship not spelled out, the references to Denethor's farsightedness but not to his Palantir), I'm guessing it will as well.

doug*platypus

12-21-2003, 07:12 PM

I thought you guys might like to read the first impression of a friend of mine. He has read the books, but probably not to the point that many of us on the Downs have. I'm always interested to see what the man in the street says about the movies.By the way, I previously made a gross misjudgment in labelling the Bagshot Row/Bag End change as minor. As I have pointed out elsewhere, no detail is too minor on this site, and rightly so. I myself have minor gripes with Gandalf's white staff among other things, and I had no right to imply that the views of other posters were not valid simply because on this point they did not agree with my own. Apologies to lindil.Without further adieu (by the way, there is no point replying to or flaming this review as the person who wrote it does not frequent the Downs): <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> First impressions were ok, the ludicrous amounts of hype kind of affects your objectivity, even though I've tried to avoid it I've still probably heard more from the actors outside their roles than in them. Nice to have some big scale battle scenes, but while I thought PJ's insistence on having emotional involvement with the characters (how many times do we have to see frodos tear rimmed eyes) was a good idea and made for a better movie, how about some more strategy and bigger picture evil vs good? ie more gandalf, and where the heck was saruman? On the dvd I guess, no complaints there. I loved the orcish commander (goonies!) the trolls, the fell beasts, actually all the monsters, it really was a spectacular. At the risk of sounding critical (I hear collective groans) what was up with eowyn/aragorn? Aragorn is definitely my biggest sore point. Eowyn crying all over him while he stands and looks like a shocked and witless king (??) He really didn't do it for me in this movie, in the first two, yeah.. but in 'Return of the King' despite all the adoring gazes that the king of rohan bestowed upon him, the only reason I would follow his heroic charges into battle would be because gandalf believed in him/he is the one etc.. not because of any great charisma or leadership. I think he looked out of his depth the whole time, not taking hold of the role and doing anything with it, apart from growing a beard. The one time that aragorn did take control of the situation, suggesting that they lead a diversion outside mordor, McKellen looked more amused than impressed. One last complaint (you know I have to do this) will have to be laid down about the witchking, leader of the nazgul. OK, fine his fell beast got killed by a lady of the court, but please.. one swing of his mace for her shield, shoulder, arm and then never mind the 'fool! no mortal man can kill me, oh no it's a lady I'm paralysed and totally shocked to see a woman in battle in these medieval times' crap, lay down the terror, lay into her, feast on the king and get into it. I'm sure one little hobbit stab wouldn't slow him down too much, being immortally cursed and all that. I always wanted those guys to go a bit harder, the scenes where they are terrorising the fleeing knights across the plain were awesome, and swooping the castle wrecking stuff, fantastic. Favourite scene would be the whole Mt doom sequence, from minas morgul on, frodo and sam up the mountain, loving that. The start scene where smeagol takes the ring chilled me, really well done the way the ring took control so fast, freaked me out. Elrond, great, I thought he looked impressed by the whole situation, especially when he sorted the sword out for a wooden aragorn and when he gave arwen away. The lighting of the beacons was majestic, god please defend new zealand. The whole end sequence I enjoyed, I could talk about the hobbits enjoying a very lengthy goodbye scene at the river just before running off to get some tattoos done or something but I won't, it was very lovely to see that they were genuine and really felt it was the end of something. and yes, I know, very crucial to the story, but where was saruman again? what was gandalf up to in minas tirith before the attack when he took control of the cities defence? excuse me, I go too far. someone please buy me the dvd for christmas. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kalimac

12-21-2003, 07:18 PM

Oops, one thing I meant to write earlier. Gorwingel, that change could be ameliorated a good bit just by having Frodo add a sentence or two at the Grey Havens about "Bag End is yours, Sam." I hope they do, largely because even a non-book-reading audience is going to wonder, hey, what did happen to it? That's a nice piece of property to just walk away from. In that case, we'd know what happened, but Sam would still go back to Bagshot Row since in the movie universe, his family is still living there and going straight to an empty Bag End would be a little pointless.

The Saucepan Man

12-21-2003, 08:35 PM

Well, it's been a few days since I saw the film, and this is the first chance that I have had to post here. Probably a good thing too, since I was just too awestruck to be objective straight after seeing it.Actually, I probably still am. I don't think that I have ever sat through the closing moments of a film before with my mouth just gaping and tears streaming down my face. I never cry in films. I have to see it again as soon as possible, although sadly probably now not until after Christmas. No doubt in my mind that this is the best of the three films. I have been an avid fan of Tolkien's book for some 25 years. Each of the films has caught, for me, the sense of wonder that I experienced on first reading the book. But this film, much moreso than the other two, encapsulated for me the main themes that I have always taken from the book: Frodo and Sam's bond of friendship, Sam's incredible loyalty and committment to Frodo, the development of Merry and Pippin from naive young Hobbits to heroic warriors in their own right, the sense of hope in a situation of utter hopelessness, incredible bravery against seemingly overwhelming odds, the comradeship and eventual friendship of Legolas and Gimli. And much more that I could mention. A real emotional rollercoaster. I don't think that I have ever felt quite so emotionally drained after watching a film.And all that wrapped up in a fantastic visual treat. As always, the visualisation, for me, was almost exactly spot on.The highlights for me:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Smeagol and Deagol - I felt that this really enhanced the impact of the Ring's power;<LI>The first shot of Minas Tirith - breathtaking;<LI>The parting of Merry and Pippin - Boyd and Monaghan were magnificent here;<LI>Everything else that Pippin/Boyd did;<LI>Everything that Sam/Astin did - here at least Jackson and Tolkien saw eye to eye - Sam is the real hero of the story;<LI>Gollum - the highlight of TTT and, if anything, better here - I completely forgot that he was a CGI character;<LI>Shelob - terrifying, and much moreso for her looking (and, even more scarily, moving) just like a real (albeit very large) spider - after the so-called Wargs, I was worried about Shelob, but now I am happy;<LI>The Paths of the Dead - the close-ups of the Dead King and his army were awesome (one minute a face, the next a skull), although the long shots (ie the "green virus") were a tad disapointing;<LI>The Beacons - absolutely stunning from a cinematographical point of view (although I didn't envy the guys who had to man some of them);<LI>Faramir's "suicide" mission, accompanied by Pippin's mournful song;<LI>The Seige of Minas Tirith and the Battle of Pelennor Fields - absolutely stunning, and I liked the way that it built up with one visual treat followed up by an even greater one;<LI>The charge of the Rohirrim - Thedoen's speech was utterly rousing and the charge was magnificent;<LI>The Oliphaunts - I have always loved the Oliphaunts;<LI>Eowyn and the Witch-King - never mind losing the original dialogue, it worked for me (although I would have preferred more to have been made of Merry's contribution);<LI>Cirith Ungol - shame that Shagrat and Gorbag's discourse was massively cut, but great that Sam got to play the great warrior, and Sam's moment of hesitation before returning the Ring to Frodo was first class;<LI>THE EAGLES! - I don't know why but they bring tears to my eyes every time they appear;<LI>Sammath Naur - I don't think that it could have been more perfect, save that I would have cut down on the shots of Gollum struggling with an invisible Frodo, which were on the verge of looking silly - but Astin and, especially Wood, were magnificent - Elijah's Frodo came of age for me here.</UL>So, just about everything really. Oh, OK. A few gripes:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Too much of an imbalance between Merry and Pippin - much as Pippin is one of my favourite characters from the book, I would have liked to have seen more of Merry's development and (as I said before) more made of his involvement in the slaying of the Witch-king;<LI>Saruman's absence - I suspected that the lack of any resolution to his involvement would be noticeable, and (to me at least ) it was - hopes for the EE here;<LI>No Gandalf/Witch-King - the way the Witch-King was built up, this would, I think have added to both characters in the film - hopes again for the EE;<LI>Things were waaay too close together - not just in Mordor, but also Minas Tirith and Osgiliath - it seems like all Faramir and his troops had to do was to cover the distance of a few football pitches before they got from one to the other - I can understand the need to show the relationship between the two (and Cirith Ungol/Mount Doom/Barad-Dur/the Black Gate), but I am sure that this could have been done while still keeping more faithfully to the "real" distances;<LI>Arwen supposedly being sick and tied to the fate of the Ring - it was never explained why this was, and it seems totally gratuitous;<LI>Denethor - I have no problem with his character change to an unstable and basically unsympathetic character since things needed to be simplifed for film format and there was never going to be enough time to develop the complex character of the book, but he should at least have been allowed to die with dignity.</UL>And it's not really a criticism, and certainly not one that many here would make, but I did feel that the film took too long to end. After the climax of the Black Gate/Sammath Naur, we had numerous "tying up" scenes, and I felt that these went on just a bit too long for this film (although the length is not out of place as a wrap up for the full 10 hours or so taken up by all three films). But, as I said, this is not a criticism for me, since I cannot see what could have been cut out here. It was utterly necessary to have Aragorn's coronation, the Hobbits returning to the Shire, Frodo explaining his sense of alientation and, of course, the Grey Havens. I do wonder what non-book fans will have been making of this, although I think that it is a credit to Jackson that there was minimal seat-shifting going on during these scenes in the cinema where I was. It did, however, really bring home to me the correctness of omitting the Scouring of the Shire. Much as I would have liked to have seen it in, this would have been asking too much of audiences.So, one or two minor gripes. But they really do pale into insignificance, as far as I am concerned, in the context of the utter magnificence of this film. Certainly the most riveting, moving and spell-binding film that I have seen for many a year, perhaps ever. [ 11:49 PM December 21, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Everdawn

12-22-2003, 03:04 AM

A burning Question, since we few here in Australia dont get ROTK till boxing Day. Is there in Imrahil or Beregond?

Phervasaion

12-22-2003, 07:32 AM

Theres definately no Beregond and i cant remember seeing Imrahil. If he was then he had a very minor part.

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

12-22-2003, 09:42 AM

No, neither of them were in it.Ok, minor gripe would be I wish Frodo had told Gollum that if he touched him again he would end up in the Cracks of Doom...Major gripe would be Denethor. In the book he was much more cunning, much more nulti-layered. He was grieving- but he was still cunning, he used his grief as a cloak to interrogate Pippin. And he did by no means abandon the cities defences. The beacons were lit and armies summoned. Then in the film...he was a 2D character. Overcome by grief, and that was it. I suppose it highlighted his preference for Boromir over Faramir, but I'm sure John Noble could've coped with a more complex character given the chance. I thought he was very good with what material he had. So why couldn't they have made him even a little more wise? Just so that Pippin could show his worth did not seem too good a reason for me...

BeeBombadil

12-22-2003, 01:44 PM

I saw the movie again on Sunday...much better the second time around though I still miss the Houses of Healing. I caught a lot more on the re-viewing, much more detail. If you liked it the first time, you might like it better the second...or third...or fourth...or...

Theron Bugtussle

12-22-2003, 03:51 PM

I will pretty much say, Amen, to Saucepan Man's overall impression of this movie. It may indeed be the best movie I have ever seen. Though, it is of necessity predicated on the previous two to set it up--it is a single story, not three.I get emotional at movies when I have invested intellectually in the characters, in the writing, and in the principles being enacted--which means rarely. However, this movie had me bawling with little restraint when I knew that any minute now, Sam would say, If I can't carry the ring, I can carry you and the ring. When he did, and picked up Frodo and staggered determinedly on, I "lost it." Thank God for Tolkien. My fourteen year old son, who has not read the book by the way, but has heard the BBC radio drama, commented, that movie kicked my a*s. By which he meant, he was moved beyond compare.

Finwe

12-22-2003, 04:00 PM

Amen to Saucepan Man's post! I felt the exact same way about RotK! I saw it for the second time on Friday, and I still cried like a baby at the very end. It was the first movie that literally had me frozen in my seat, with tears streaming down my face.

Meela

12-22-2003, 05:17 PM

I just got back from my second viewing. It's improved. And I cried more.

*Varda*

12-22-2003, 05:32 PM

It was amazing. Of course, there are always those few little moments that I don't like, but as was previously said by somebody, they really do just pale into insignificance. That was the best movie of the lot, the best movie I have ever seen, and who knows - maybe it's the best I ever will see?The scenery was breathtaking, the acting was moving...I only saw it today, so I'm really quite lost for words. I cried from the Pelennor to the end, so PJ's obviously doing something right. I'm not usually one to cry so much at films.

Arcuwen

12-22-2003, 05:57 PM

Wow, where do I start?! I'm trying to find a word to describe how good it was, but none of them come close to how I felt about it. Let's just go with excellent, moving, and amazing for now. There were some parts that I thought could have been better. First, Sauron's eye. The whole spotlight thing was a little corny. It reminded me of a video game...avoid the spotlight! Secondly, Theoden's death was by far not as moving as I thought it would be. After balling while reading that part of the book, I was somewhat disappointed. No Scouring of the Shire, but that was to be expected. Eowyn and Faramir! They cut it out almost all of it! Well, maybe it'll be in the extended addition. Finally, Saruman. I was a bit confused about why they didn't really give the whole Saruman situation an ending.Highlights of the movie for me...I don't know where to begin! Well...let's see...Pippin was AWSOME! Just everything about him was amazing! How can you not love Samwise in this movie? Arwen...thankfully didn't take over the whole movie. Denethor was so good! John Noble did an amazing job. His jump off the cliff was kind of hokey, but oh well. Gollum and Shelob were excellent. My arachnophobic friends sure didn't like Shelob because she was so real looking. Pelennor Fields was intense and breathtaking. It was so great I felt as if I was in the midst of battle alongside the soldiers...maybe sitting in the 3rd row had something to do with that also. The lighting of the beacons probably was my favorite part. Howard Shore has outdone himself again. They did a good job with the Gray Havens scene, much better than I expected them to. There are so many more things I've just begun to think of, but I've probably said too much already. So what are you waiting for...go see it! If you've already seen it...see it again!

Hilde Bracegirdle

12-22-2003, 07:31 PM

I know that I am in the minority, but the movie left me a bit cold, as if it happened in a parallel universe to the book. It had none of "the feel" of Tolkien's work to my mind though some spots seemed very well done in their own right, like Pippin's song and the lighting of the beacons, quite beautiful. At least I'm not as upset as I was with TTT. They didn't murder it, just changed the tone quite a bit. But I'm bizarrely apathetic toward it.Did miss the red arrow,the mithril coat, houses of healing, Aragorn and the palantir, etc. And was it just me or did Sam and Frodo suddenly get hobbit clothes back again in Mordor? Suspenders and all. I can't imagine an orc using suspenders, they definitely seem more of the belt type! Sean Astin did do a superb job, though.[ 5:36 AM December 23, 2003: Message edited by: Hilde Bracegirdle ]

Everdawn

12-22-2003, 07:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> No, neither of them were in it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> *faints* Ahhhh! but they are who I was counting on seeing! Well i guess the movie is still worth the wait, is it not?

Lathriel

12-23-2003, 12:20 AM

Just saw it tfay and i have to see it again! I loved the movie except for one thing. Arwen connected to the ring...sure... However I think Elijah Woods acting is the strongest in this movie. I only cried once before for a movie but during this movie I was on the verge of tears often. I said to myself, if PJ does a good job i will cry in the end and i did! Favourite parts: Faramir riding forth to Osgiliath while Pippin is singing and Denethor, he is just eating! While his son is riding towards almost certain death The beacons, the views were awesome. Ride of the Rohirrim And you got to give credit to Howard Shore. I thought the music was awesome! When Frodo is almost at the cracks of doom a flute begins to play (Played by Sir James Galway best flute player in the world) And I thought the music went so well with the moment it almost gave me goosebumps. I just hope that in the EE they will have some mention of the house of healing. Me and my two friends decided we are going to see it again together. If I was dictator of New Zealand i would make PJ make the Hobbit!

mark12_30

12-23-2003, 07:31 AM

Regarding hobbit-clothes and suspenders: I'm guessing that in the scriptwriters' minds, by the time Sam gets to Frodo, Frodo's mithril shirt is gone but his clothes (shirt and suspenders) are still in a rumpled pile in the corner where the orcs were fussing over them. The mithril shirt was the big deal, in their mind. Frodo didn't collect any lembas-peices off the floor, and all that... Non-canonical, I know.

Theron Bugtussle

12-23-2003, 09:52 AM

Hilde Bracegirdle, I know what you mean, and at minimum, confirm your right to hold a minority opinion. Expressing how I felt about PJ and his 'improvements' over Tolkien affecting my viewing of this movie (See the <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002528" TARGET=_blank>Movies Forum official RotK Frodo thread</A>), I can see how strongly people can be affected by the movie interpretation.

Firefoot

12-23-2003, 11:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Amen to Saucepan Man's post! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My thoughts exactly. I thought this was an excellent movie - much better than FotR or TTT. The changes they made in RotK didn't seem to be as major because the movie on the whole was so good. The emotion was so real and compelling. I was in absolute awe of this movie.Some complaints:Where were the Dunedain?? That was one of my favorite parts in the book!The Mouth of Sauron. They could have done this part so well and I'm not sure why they took it out! They better put it in the EE.Everything was too close together. Especially in Mordor and from Osgiliath to Minas Tirith.Gimli was too, well, funny. I was rather annoyed that he is used for comic relief.When Frodo wakes up it was incredibly cheesy, I thought. Sort of like in Rivendell when Frodo wakes up.Favorite parts:Pelennor Fields. This was amazing!Sam - Sean did an excellent job!!The Eagles.Pippin's song and everything else about Pippin.Sammath Naur.The Rohirrim and Theoden's speech. Eowyn and the Witch King.Just about everything else about the movie was amazing too. I was so surprised. It didn't seem like the same director could have done this movie.Looking at everyone else's posts our theater group was completely unresponsive!! No one clapped except for my cousin and I. No one cheered or anything!

HCIsland

12-23-2003, 11:30 AM

First post here about the film, though I have seen it twice now.I wonder if others found this, but I had the same experience with Towers that, despite my best efforts, I spend the whole movie anticipating how they will handle and upcoming sequence that I don't end up just letting the film do it's magic. I had the opportunity to see it again the next night by volunteering as a chaperone for a birthday party my two sons were invited to. Man, that worked well. Both times I left the film shell-shocked and I completely agree with others that I have never been to a 3 hour and 20 minute film that felt rushed. It was incredible. I know there are aspects that were removed that we all would have rather seen in the film - Saruman, Denethor and the palantir, Gandalf and the Witch-king, Faramir and Eowyn - but I just can't imagine how more could be stuffed into this movie without it being completely overburdened.I expected scenes like Frodo and Sam on the side of Mount Doom and Grey Havens, but the shot that got tears rolling down my checks was when everyone bowed before the hobbits. Damn you PJ, you caught me of guard with that one. It's been a while since I've been here last - I ducked out when the spoilers started coming in a little too fast and furious for me. It's good to be back.H.C.

Tintalle

12-23-2003, 11:41 AM

I got so lucky that I had the chance to watch it twice via advance screening (in my country it'll show on Jan. 9th!!). So what can I say???IT WAS AWESOME! Everything about it! Even with the diversions from the book and loss of some parts of it, I say it's still the best movie/trilogy ever made. (There was a review I read hours ago comparing Godfather and Rings ... and they insist the Godfather is the best trilogy. My answer would be there is no basis for comparison, and of course, Rings is the BEST!)Normally as a book lover, I would nitpick on details ... but I think Peter Jackson, cast and crew deserve credit. After all I wouldn't have seen Middle Earth in film if they didn't take that bold step (adapting a well loved/revered, so detailed book into film)'cuz we have to admit the task was daunting (and dangerous - he's dealing with rabid fans like me here !). I'm pretty happy with the quality on how the film was made. After all there's still the Extended DVD version to look forward to. So I say kudos to everyone involved in this project for being very visionary!!! [ 12:43 PM December 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tintalle ]

Thulorongil

12-23-2003, 12:00 PM

Return of the King was an amazing movie and a fine interpretation of the book, despite all the problems I have with it. <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>The beacons!! The entire breathtaking sequence through the mountains with equally breathtaking music. Howard Shore has once again outdone himself! <LI>I think that John Noble did an excellent job as Denethor. Faramir's mission, its accompanying song, and the events that led up to it were very sad, and retained the emotion of the original story. <LI>"Go home, Sam." One of the few scenes in a movie that leaves me close to tears. Gollum's "sneaking" is well done, as is Frodo's slowly siding with him. Once again, Sean Astin plays an excellent Samwise and really makes the whole movie! <LI>I was very worried about the Paths of the Dead when I realized that Peter Jackson would most likely show scenes inside of them. I must admit, though, that he did a good job. I don't think that Aragorn really should have tried to strangle a ghost and as someone said before, there was "the green virus," but the rest made up for it. Just the little details like the dead king's changing face; first you see his expression and then it looks like a skull, and you aren't sure which one you're really seeing. <LI>The Grey Havens was beautiful and another tear-jerking moment. Annie Lenox's "Into the West" is wonderful, as well. <LI>We got to see Bilbo again! I don't know what I was thinking, as there had to be a Grey Havens scene, and Bilbo has to go to the Grey Havens, but for some reason I wasn't expecting him back. His asking Frodo if he could see his old ring again was a good moment, too. Ian Holm's great. <LI>Shelob was awesome! I must have had a little senior moment when I invited my two arachnophobic friends to come see RotK with me! Oh well, the expression on their faces and the bruises on their hands from gripping the seat are just more evidence that She was well done, from her realistic body, to the disturbing tunnel, to Frodo's gruesome face afterwards. <LI>All the scenery in this film was spectacular. I am very pleased that they recruited Alan Lee; he's one of my favorite Tolkien artists. Everyone at Weta, Amin mela lle! </UL>There are so many other things, also, but alas, there are not enough hours in the day!Of course, I did have many problems with the movie, too. <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Théoden's death was not sad enough! If I was sobbing when I read it, I should have been at least in tears in the theater. I think what happened was that there wasn't enough Merry involvement. In the movie it barely seemed like he did anything to defeat the Witch King, and he never even pledged himself to Théoden. Peter Jackson should have at least put in, "Tell me of the Shire." I am eagerly awaiting the Extended Edition, as I've seen a spoiler pic of Merry kneeling before the king. <LI>Why was Arwen's life bound to the ring??!! I vexed everyone around me by bursting out laughing after that line! Just, why?! <LI>The Witch King's new fashion accessory, that weird mask/crown thing must have affected his thought process. One would think that he'd see the hobbits when he flew right over them! Can't he always sense when the ring is near? Also, what were Sam and Frodo thinking, stopping to rest and watch the gigantic army march past? I know that we need to see how scary and big the army was, but please... <LI>All I have to say is, "A diversion!" Hmm, ya think? <LI>Did Déagol really need to be pulled along through the water by that fish? I understand him falling out of the boat to see the ring, but was that whole bit of getting tugged along necessary? <LI>Denethor really should have just died the way he did in the book, instead of running off the cliff. You'd think that it would be kind of tough to run that whole distance while your body's on fire. <LI>I was upset that we didn't get to see the planting of the sapling of the White Tree! Once again, eagerly awaiting the EE. <LI>I was hoping that at least one of the three movies wouldn't have Gimli as just comic relief. Alas. At least it wasn't as bad as it was in Two Towers. <LI>I was also waiting for Gandalf to battle the Witch King. It didn't seem like he did enough in the movie, other than order a bunch of soldiers around. <LI>Sauron was disappointing, too. I thought that the filmmakers did such a good job with him in the first two movies, that it would stay just as good in the movie that focuses on him. The Eye is not his whole being! Why did it look around and look confused as the tower was collapsing? And the whole spotlightish thing was dumb. [You stole my idea, Arcuwen!] I had said to Arcuwen and my arachnophobic friends that it reminded me of the setup of a video game. Avoid the beam of light or you lose a life! It wasn't really the menacing and powerful evil being that he should have been. </UL>I'm sure I'll be back after thinking of more and seeing it for my third and fourth times![ 6:25 PM December 23, 2003: Message edited by: Thulorongil ]

TheSquireof Aragorn

12-23-2003, 12:46 PM

I saw the movie last night, and i know it's been said a lot, but that movie was incredible. Stunning. During the charge of the Riders of Rohan i just sat there with my mouth wide open and a huge grin on my face. Personally i'm not worried about most of the stuff left out because it will probably be on the EE, but the only things i have problems with, is the absence of the raising of the shire, and how the men of gondor just got the crap kicked out of them at Osgiliath. Overall 11 out of 10. Just have to keep holding my breath until EE.

HCIsland

12-23-2003, 02:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Why was Arwen's life bound to the ring??!! I vexed everyone around me by bursting out laughing after that line! Just, why?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Although I didn't laugh (or felt like it) this part was confusing to me as well, and seemingly unneccessary. I think having Arwen make her choice (Tolkien was always a little vague on how this process worked anyway) was fine as it locks her down to Middle Earth, but wouldn't that alone accomplish the motivations necessary for Elrond and Aragorn, as now her fate is the same as everyone else who cannot cross the sea?I was wondering if somehow this plays into Aragorn looking into the palantir. I know this scene was cut, but I had read that Aragorn was to look into the palantir and see Arwen dieing (in fact I think the Aragorn's dream sequence was this material reshuffled). We know that it cannot show things that are not true, so perhaps the idea was Sauron would show Aragorn this unnerving image (and it would be, considering he thinks she is safely on her way by now) before Aragorn is able to master the seeing stone and challenge the Dark Lord.I don't know.Speaking of Arwen, did anyone else find the scene of her seeing her son incredible. When I first saw the group of elves in the forest I thought, "okay, here we get the lame reason why Arwen has to go back." Then wham, he hits us with that emotionally charged image. I thought it was brilliant.H.C.

The Only Real Estel

12-23-2003, 03:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I never cry in films.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Same here. And I nearly did in this one. A few highs, lows, & in-betweens for me: Highs:*The great shot of Minas Tirith from above as Gandalf & Pippin near the top.*Definitly the lighting of the beacons (one of my favorite parts)*Shelob (could've been better [or maybe worse is the word?], but she was good enough [or bad enough...]*The Witch-King (helmet & mace were sweet), & Minas Morgul.*The new death scene for Gollum. I think to have him fall over the edge while celebrating would've made it look rather cheesy in the the movie. Although I'm quite glad he didn't have Frodo push him in ! *"Well, I'm home." (or 'I'm back, I can't remember ) I was SO glad they put that in there...*The Harbor scene . Especially the shot of Frodo smiling .* Others will be posted later In-Betweens:* Sam hearing Gollum's murder plans.* Denethor pigging out while Faramir rides on his suicide mission (this one is closer to the high list than the low list ).* The Eagles basically beating up on the winged beasts (a little more even, perhaps?)* More will be posted later... Lows (I have plenty, but they'll be posted once I've got plenty of time):

Lathriel

12-23-2003, 05:09 PM

A lot of you people are saying that Minas Tirith and Osgiliath were too close together but I checked a map I have in the illustrated LOTR version.(That one has to be accurate) And I figured that the distance was at least 10 miles in between the two cities. So Osgiliath and Minas Tirith aren't that far appart.

Angry Oathbreaker

12-23-2003, 05:21 PM

The Battle for the Pelannor Fields was very nice. I was marching in my seat as the hosts of Mordor approached the city.I could hear myself chanting "Grond! Grond!" - It was Glorious.The Morgul Lord was so much more than I expected. I've wondered for years what it would be like to SEE him and not just imagine it. And when the Morgul Host issued forth from Minas Morgul? Wow! (only I wish they were more regimented and orderly - like the Uruks or the Southrons in TTT.I'm so grateful to have lived to see Tolkien's masterpiece done RIGHT on film. When you think about the movie, "Willow", you'll understand what I mean. I've been obsessed with Middle Earth for over 20 years. To see it all come alive on screen is something I cannot put into words.Thanks to Peter jackson et al! And thanks to Professor Tolkien!

Hilde Bracegirdle

12-23-2003, 06:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm guessing that in the scriptwriters' minds, by the time Sam gets to Frodo, Frodo's mithril shirt is gone but his clothes (shirt and suspenders) are still in a rumpled pile in the corner where the orcs were fussing over them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I'm forgetting the the average movie goer isn't fidgeting in their seat going "What are you doing?! You're going to need those smelly nasty orc clothes when all those orc troops pass by and you are trying to hide from them!" Of course they must have simply ditched them.Theron Bugtussle Thanks for the link. I can see why a few alterations might have been considered for the movies, some just change the characters entirely, don't they? I'm thinking of Gandalf's speech in FoTR, something like "I must go and speak with Saruman the head of my order, he is both wise and ...." Tolkien was so good about letting us know that Gandalf gave nothing away, and acted quite independently.

The Only Real Estel

12-24-2003, 10:33 AM

Cont. from above post:Lows: *Frodo telling Sam to leave. Deffinitly my least favorite part of the movie, Frodo & Sam always stuck together in the books, & that was one of the great things about the books, & the movies pretty well disrupted that.*Gandalf 'throwing' Denethor back onto the pyre.*What dignity there was in Denethor's death scene being sacrificed for a chance to spectacularize it.*Arwen's life being tied to the Ring. It was just a ridiculous side-plot, again, trying to create extra suspense when none was needed.*Everything had to be rushed along (except for the battle), & you could really tell in spots where they where trying to cram this in, rush along to this, find a quick bit of time for that, etc. That's the evils of having to move Shelob & Minas Morgul to RotK, even if it did 'fit the timeline' better. Imagine how squashed everything would've been had they attempted to get the Wizard Confrontation in there as well ! Not to say that I wouldn't have liked to see it .*The special effects left some to be desired on occasion, but for the most part they were pretty good.*The cutting of the Wizard Confrontation...*The cutting of the Houses of Healing. Seriously, Eowyn & Faramir hook up seemingly with next to no contact, & Merry seems to suffer absolutly no ill-effects or gets any credit for saving Eowyn. That's all I have time for for now... .[ 5:41 PM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

Eomer of the Rohirrim

12-24-2003, 03:15 PM

I am glad they didn't have Aragorn or Gandalf fight Sauron though. If they had put that in, the entire film would have been ruined for me. As it is, I really enjoyed the film. Having said that, I do think it could have been a lot better. Just to avoid accusations of being over-critical of the film. I know I have been quite negative about it in the other threads, but I did really enjoy it.

Ughósh the Abominable

12-25-2003, 02:21 AM

See, I went *expecting* to cry...but was disappointed. I suppose I have only my self to blame; I got my expectations way higher up than I suppose they reasonably should have been.Many of the scenes that should have been really dramatic - dramatic enough to make me cry - simply weren't, or were melodramatic, leaving me saying "OK, PJ, you don't have to shove it in my face, I get that it's supposed to be dramatic." Some scenes that I thought defined the book - such as the part where Aragorn unfirls his banner on the mast of the Corsair ship as his forces are sailing up Anduin - simply weren't there, while others - such as Sam being "kicked out" of the Gollum-Frodo-Sam trio, only to come back a couple scenes later - I thought totally unnecessary, just as the part where Aragorn falls off the cliff in Two Towers was unnecessary; it's all the same thing: Peter Jackson thinking the movie isn't dramatic enough, and trying to pack artificial drama in so modern audiences, used to soap-operas, don't get bored. Frankly I think he would've been a lot wiser to forget the weird new scenes and use the time saved to enable him to leave in scenes he actually had to cut for the theatre release - like, for instance, the encounter with Saruman. Cutting Frodo's "Go home, Sam" speech and replacing it with the Saruman scene would have made the movie as a whole drastically better for me, personally.There were scenes I thought excellent. The death of the Witch-King was straight from the book; that was one part I always loved, and I was delighted to no end when I saw it so perfectly represented on screen. Everything from Shelob on in the Frodo-Sam-Gollum storyline was excellent.But now we come to Minas Tirith. In my considered opinion, this entire battle sequence was awe-inspiring - until Aragorn showed up. The Dead Army, instead of playing the minor (yet vital) role they did in the book, instead took all desperation and drama from the Battle of Pelennor Field as soon as they arrived in the movie version. That battle was supposed to be a struggle to the bitter end; Aragorn's arrival in the book was a clear turning of the tide, yet even so, the battle was fought for the rest of the day, and it was clear by the end of it that victory had been by the barest of margins; this is important, because it makes clear to the reader that though Men have turned back the tide *this* time, the will not be able to do so again. But since the Dead take part in the movie version, it looses that desperation; it looses its ability to affect me emotionally. It makes the battle look like cake; it makes Sauron look impotent, and it gives the War of the Ring a feel of certain victory for Men. True, the Dead are dismissed immediately afterward; but they do so only *after* leaving the most emotionally affecting battle of the entire book trilogy completely bereft of drama. I should have cried right there in the theatre. Instead I found myself shaking my head and laughing sardonically.Furthermore: why was Pelennor Fields fought in what looked like total daylight? In the book, the battle in the sky between Sauron's darkness and the morning light peeking through before the wind from the South is clearly a reflection of the raging tide of the battle on the field itself, and therefore gives the entire conflagration what can only be called supernatural significance, and therefore furthers this scene's emotional potency. Yet this element seems entirely absent from the film. I understand this may have been difficult to do cinematically; but still, I think if PJ had taken just a bit of extra effort to attempt this affect, I would be much happier.Finally: why does the ROTK movie make it seem as if everything in Middle-Earth is about a brisk 5-minute walk from everything else? In one scene we see Aragorn proposing his plan to march on the Black Gate; a snap of the fingers, and he's there, all gussied up, with an army at his back. What? I'm not saying PJ should show the journey in real-time; I'm saying he could at least through in some scenes of chit-chat between the commanders or major characters who are making the journey, as with the journey from Edoras to Helm's Deep in Two Towers. Or maybe PJ could just show a travel-montage like he did in much of Fellowship, when the characters are travelling long distances and it just shows them from an aerial view with a nice angle on the surrounding landscape. That could be really sweet when it's an army marching to battle. I'm hoping that something like the above will maybe be in the Extended Ed.There's all kinds of other things I didn't see that I was expecting too; but I'm not worried to much, because there are *so* many places in the theatre release where it's painfully obvious they cut stuff to make the film short enough; that means that much of the stuff I'm looking for is no doubt in the Extended Ed. Things like the White Tree's rejuvination, the Wild Men of the Woods, Aragorn's attack on Pelargir, and Faramir and Eowyn's rendezvous.

The Only Real Estel

12-25-2003, 08:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Furthermore: why was Pelennor Fields fought in what looked like total daylight? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe it's to increase what little visibility there is during battle scenes ? Really though, I was kind've disappointed in the lack of being able to see much of anything. In FotR & TTT they made sure the camera moved enough, but in RotK it really peaked out. I understand that he wanted to do this to keep the movie at PG-13, but having battle scenes that practically make you dizzy might not be the answer (FotR & TTT were bordering dizziness already )...

BoromirsBeard

12-26-2003, 02:15 AM

RotK... Good!Smeagol transforming with dodgy makeup and latex into Gollum... Bad!Minas Tirith... Good!Lighting the beacons... Good!Can't even tell which battle you're in because they're all so close together... Bad!Denethor eating/ Pippin singing/ Faramir on a suicide mission... Good!Denethor pouring petrol on his head... Good!Reforging sword... Good!Sending Elrond instead of introducing his sons... Fair enough!Spooky dead warriors... Good!No houses of healing... Bad!Sam being framed with Lembas crumbs... Good! (but why didn't he EAT IT when he found it again? hehehe)Frodo's face when he says the ring is his... Good!Aragorn's coronation... Good!Aragorn trying to give grand speeches in his somewhat high-pitched voice... Oh well!Really ugly Bilbo... Bad!Really ugly Bilbo asking about the ring... Good!Kinda small silly-looking ship with no-one on board, just Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel waiting... Bad!Repeat: RotK... Good!

Arwen Imladris

12-26-2003, 09:48 PM

Overall, it was great. I think that it may just replace FOTR as the best movie ever. What I hate: The palantir scene with Pippin, The Pyre scene, bits of the diologe by Legolas and Aragorn, Minas Morgul - What the pie is with the crazy green light?What I can learn to deal with: The Mumakil stunt with Legolas, The Sam-Frodo-Gollum-Shelob story plot changes, the lack of rangers, the lack of Elladan and Ellrohir.What I loved: Frodo's transformation, Sam hero moments, the grey havens, Arwen + Elrond reactions, Aragorns speech at the black gate

Catlyn21

12-26-2003, 10:51 PM

There are no words to describe how good it was... The only things I missed were Eowyn and Faramir getting together (i told everyone around me in the theater about that, lol) and that it doesn't really clear up the end with Legolas and Gimli (yes, i am one of those Legolas fangirls! oh, I'm so ashamed of myself...) Thank you Peter Jackson!

Everdawn

12-28-2003, 10:07 PM

As a movie fan, i loved it! As a book fan, im not so sure. Prince Imrahil was next to Éomer in my fave Characters and i really would have loved to see "Amroth for Gondor! Amroth to Faramir!" and the Lord of Dol Amroth riding out of the city, oh darn it, i imagined it in my mind all the same, and let me tell you, what i saw was amazing. I really thought they could have had Imrahil there to heighten the notion that Denethor lost his mind and the city was trusted tot he keeping of the Prince.And i owuld have loved to see Beregond and the romance between Éowyn and Faramir but to a lesser degree of Imrahil.I would have appreciated more Karl Urban though, he was in it for such a short time.

dragoneyes

12-29-2003, 03:54 PM

Before I say anything, I must express my utmost amazement at Shelob. The silence before she struck was truely that: silence. Not one person in our tiny little cinema ate, drank or even moved, everyone's breath was held. Then she stabbed him and there was a collective "ooh!" and I've never heard such a reaction from a cinema audience around here. But then we had Elijah's reaction face (frothing or no frothing?) which I felt was a fraction too long. One more thing: was I meant to feel sorry for Shelob when Sam stabbed her? She made the sweetest little whining noises that just made me lose all emnity for her, she is only trying to eat.Now, what to start with? I was pleased with all of the actors and their acting, even if Elijah had the camera on him for that little bit too long a few times. I didn't cry, but that was to be expected as I never do.Be warned that I shall probably concentrate on the bad things as those are the things that leap out at me most. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> the movie left me a bit cold, as if it happened in a parallel universe to the book <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That was very much the same for me, I couldn't quite explain it to my friend but it was something like that.Billy's face started to annoy me, but I've had that against him ever since I read the book and saw the movie again, he just doesn't have the face of a Pippin. I'm weird like that and just tried to ignore it while I was watching.I liked Pippin pledging to Denethor (though Merry could have done with one) because it showed a shadow of a different Denethor, smiling as Pippin muddled his way through the lines. Of course the feel soon changed and he just became downright evil but in that short moment he was a real human being.I was sitting in my seat hoping against hope that they wouldn't fire the heads over the walls, it was the one thing that I wouldn't have minded too much being omitted from the book because I can't stand dead bodies, I was cringing away from Frodo when he was "dead". But as soon as that orc mentioned the "present" and then went on to tell the others to load the catapaults I knew it was coming. It's not a complaint, I'm glad they put it in, but it was really horrid.Like many others here, I could have done without the roving eye of Sauron across the plains of Mordor, though it was pretty cool when Frodo was caught in the light (why he wasn't seen is beyond me).The Arwen and the ring thing pushed me to ask my friend next to me if she knew anything more about it, we were both confused, and it seemed pointless as it wasn't mentioned again, which is a good thing.Sammath Naur was dangerously close to being funny with Gollum on an invisible Frodo's back, but it managed to pull it off. Frodo falling off the edge, however, and having to be pulled up again was getting a little cliche (and how do you get a good grip on a blood drenched hand?). Frodo's pure evil smirk at Sam when he claimed the ring was pure genius, loved it.Unfortunately, there are the parts that are painfully and obviously missing, they have all been mentioned here so I feel I need not say anything more about them.Last thing, there are probably many more but I have the worst memory, there was too much light. I was happy for them to have light on Pellenor fields because I could see how that would be ridiculous in darkness, but Shelobs lair could have easily been darker, when he got out Galadriel's phial, I really didn't see the point as, truth be told, it didn't make too much difference.Well, that's me done. No wait, the "green virus" bugged me too, how ironic that at the end they decided to skip on the green and have the yellow door of #3 That's me done.[ 4:56 PM December 29, 2003: Message edited by: dragoneyes ]

Theron Bugtussle

12-29-2003, 05:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>dragoneyes: I could have done without the roving eye of Sauron across the plains of Mordor, though it was pretty cool when Frodo was caught in the light (why he wasn't seen is beyond me).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why he wasn't seen is obvious--the beam of light was a special effect. Heh, heh! The real Sauron would never let his gaze be reduced to a cheap, visible effect, or his minions would know when he was not looking at them, and might be tempted to slack off in their badness.

The Only Real Estel

12-29-2003, 11:04 PM

I thougth that the 'spotlight' eye vision was really cheap. #1- It limits Sauron's ability to 'see all', &-#2- If Sauron's eye does truly pierce 'earth, cloud, shadow, & flesh', then no amount of hiding (& no amount of elven cloak) would have hidden the two hobbits from his eye. A bad choice on PJ's part, I thought.

Everdawn

12-29-2003, 11:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I thougth that the 'spotlight' eye vision was really cheap. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah i just remember thinking, "Thats really frightening, that is."

QN_VICTORIA

12-30-2003, 09:34 AM

I was a bit disapointed about the fighting sences(Legolas) but, when Eowyen kicked the Naz gulz but. THat more than made up for all the other fighting sences I'm sure that won't come out til the EE....I just can't wait that long..

The Only Real Estel

12-30-2003, 04:07 PM

After seeing the movie for the 3rd time a few days ago, I realized that, as much as I like the Grey Havens scene, 2 parts lessened my enjoyment of it slightly.*That PJ wound up having Frodo kiss Sam. Although it doesn't especially disturb me because I can seperate events in a movie from sterotypes in real life, I think it would've been slightly better without it. If he wanted to show a greater bound between Frodo & Sam, then his more, uh...how shall we say 'fierce' (for now ) hug would've worked just fine.*Although I thought for the most part the acting was great at this scene as well, I wish PJ wouldn't have slowed down Frodo's lines. I understand it was to emphasize (bad spelling day, I'm 99% sure that's wrong) what he was saying, but next time you what it, pay close attention to the Havens scene. With Frodo's slow speech it's just wierd. Still a great scene, though .

mark12_30

12-30-2003, 07:19 PM

The kiss is pure Tolkien. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Then Frodo kissed Merry and Pippin, and last of all Sam, and went aboard; and the sails were drawn u0, and the wind blew, and slowly the ship slipped away... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm glad PJ put it in.

Cibbwin

12-31-2003, 12:22 AM

I don't know why, but I turned my head away when Frodo kissed Sam. Not out of repulsion, no, I AM bisexual, but I have no idea why I did.

The Only Real Estel

12-31-2003, 02:55 PM

After thinking about 'the kiss' seen & reading the section that mark12_30 pointed out, it bothers me less. Although PJ left out some parts of that nature because something that was perfectly fine when Tolkien was writing the books is now looked upon much less innocently (unfortunatly, in some cases). If that made any sense at all .

Kalimac

12-31-2003, 03:16 PM

I liked the kiss; it felt very Tolkien, and was brought off very well, very seriously. There was a real parting-forever feeling about the scene.One random note; my brother, who's in Iraq right now, just saw ROTK (*ahem*bootleg*ahem*) and liked it, but the scene that really impressed him was, oddly enough, the one right at the end, where the four hobbits are sitting at the Green Dragon. He said that hit really close to home, and that they did that scene very well - as he put it, no matter how familiar the surroundings that you're in, you still feel as if you have more in common with the three or four other guys who experienced fighting alongside you than with anyone else in the place.

Linaeve

12-31-2003, 07:29 PM

I liked ROTK, but I wasn't overly impressed by it. Maybe that was because half way through the movie, I got a horrible headache thanks to the fact that the volume in the theater must have been set at its highest possible volume . . . if that makes any sense. Anyway, I thought it was a bit too . . . I dunno, forced, maybe is the word for it. I can't remember which ones now (I saw it last week), but there are a couple scenes in the movie that you just know you're supposed to cry in. I hated that- it felt much too Hollywood for me. I really didn't like the whole 'Gollum frames Sam' business . . . I liked it better in the books where Gollum is shown to have some goodness still remaining in him, and I didn't like the whole departure scene at the beginning of the movie with Pippin and Merry. That's one of the scenes that I thought was much too contrived. I also wasn't impressed with the Paths of the Dead- it wasn't nearly as frightening as it is in the book. However, I was impressed with the elephants (or oliphaunts, if you're Samwise), and I liked Gimli, even though he seemed a little too comic and contrived too. My favorite scenes, however, were towards the end. I liked the part where the Nazgul says that he can't be killed by any man, and Eowyn rips off her helmet and cries, "But I am no man!". The other scene I liked was at the end, when everyone bowed down to the four hobbits . . . I leaned over to my friend and whispered, "Go short people!" in his ear. I was thrilled because, at 17, I'm only 5 ft tall! All said and done, I still think the first one is the best for its spectacular acting, costumes, and set. Everything went downhill from there (And sorry if I repeated what others have said before me . . . I was lazy and didn't bother reading all four pages before I posted!!! )

mark12_30

01-03-2004, 05:22 PM

On the Searchlight theme, this is from the Mount Doom chapter of RotK: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-Dur. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay. and thither all its malice was now bent, as the Power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally. His hand sought the chain around his neck.Sam knelt by him. Faint, almost inaudibly, he heard Frodo whispering: "Help me, Sam! Help me, Sam! Hold my hand! I can't stop it." Sam took his master's hands and laid them together, palm to palm, and kissed them; and then he held them gently between his own. The thought came suddenly to him, "He's spotted us! It's all up, or it soon will be. Now, Sam Gamgee, this is the end of ends."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>At this point Sam again carries Frodo (for the second time.)A couple of things to note: rather than the glaring red eye in the movie, this describes the top of the twoer constantly swathed in shadow til this moment, and then (and only then) does the red light pierce. I always pictured a dull red glimmer from the topmost turret, not a glaring eye strung out at the top. However, Frodo is certainly "stricken" by a glaring red light from the tower at this point, and it knocks him down and renders him quite powerless, and sets him clawing for the Ring.

Wraith

01-03-2004, 08:28 PM

ROTK = New favorite movie ever (replacing the tie between FOTR and TTT)I guess I'm not the only one who thought this was a teerjerker(but I didn't slip), I almost cried! Especially when they all kneeled down to the hobbits.The whole thing was AWESOME, even though they left out a lot like the scouring of the shire, Denethor having a palantir, Beregond, houses of healing, the mouth of Sauron, and more.But

The Only Real Estel

01-03-2004, 08:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I got a horrible headache thanks to the fact that the volume in the theater must have been set at its highest possible volume . . . if that makes any sense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Heh, that makes a lot of sense. You weren't watching it at my theater, where you?

Linaeve

01-03-2004, 09:08 PM

Well, if you were in New Jersey on the 20th of December at the 6:30 showing, then I very well could have been in your theater! But I think that most places played it really loudly, though my Uncle said he didn't have a problem when he saw it. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive

Essex

01-08-2004, 08:58 AM

I remember walking around in a daze for a day or two feeling really sad / lonely / depressed once I'd seen rotk. This was down to the fact that it was over.It was, without doubt, the greatest movie I've ever seen. I've been knocking the other two movies (esp tt) even though they were ALSO my fave films before this, mainly to do with the changes.But even though Jacskon has changed bits of this film, I cannot bring myself to moan too much about them. The film was that good. The film was TOLKIEN. I now understand the differences in reading a book and seeing a film. They cannot be the same. they are different mediums. look how boring harry potter I is because it is exactly the same as the book. The book itself is brilliant.Even the things jackson changed I kind of understand WHY. for example: frodo sending sam away. Jackson wanted frodo to be ALONE in the tunnel with shelob to add tension and atmosphere. He did a little change with sam leaving (for a few minutes!) and then coming back to defeat shelob.Anyway, looking forward to the EE. 10 months to go..........

The Saucepan Man

01-08-2004, 10:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But even though Jacskon has changed bits of this film, I cannot bring myself to moan too much about them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I couldn’t agree with you more, Essex. I have seen the film twice. On both occasions I enjoyed it thoroughly and was deeply moved by it, perhaps even more so on my second viewing. For me, the changes/additions/omissions pale into insignificance compared to the moments of great beauty, high tension and emotional power. There are really only two scenes in the film which do not work for me (and I have mentioned these elsewhere), but my misgivings over these are vastly outweighed by my appreciation of the remainder. Maybe I have the wrong impression, but it seems to me that, after an initial flurry of appreciation, this forum seems to have become rather negative towards the film, with the majority of recent posts being critical of it. Like you, Essex, I really cannot bring myself to be too critical, given the impact that the film has had on me.

mark12_30

01-08-2004, 10:26 AM

Essex and Saucie, I agree; the film is wonderful, there is little in it that bothers me (mentioned elsewhere), and more to enjoy than any film in my recent history. When I look at my complaints, I have to laugh.What the film has give me is another whole story to love. There are the books, untouched, and still as pervasively wonderful as ever; and now, here is this movie trilogy... also full-of-wonder.While it is a different interpretation of the books than I might have scripted, on the other hand, it has given me a new and fresh enjoyment of the boks as they are. On several counts my overly simplistic view of the books has been challenged and expanded by this film. I still hold to my original, 5 AM review after my first midnight showing: This film rocks. It really, really rocks.Maybe that's why I've seen it five times already. Hmm, I haven't seen it since Saturday... five whole days. Time to go again. [ 11:23 AM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Child of the 7th Age

01-08-2004, 02:14 PM

It's been over two weeks since I've seen the movie. OK, I admit -- I saw it a number of times during the first week.My initial assessment of RotK still stands. It isn't classic Tolkien but it is a wonderful film by Peter Jackson, which pulled me in and held me, eliciting tears in a number of placesI purposely waited to post my specific likes and dislikes to see what actually stuck with me over the weeks, rather than giving first impressions. Here are the things I can't get out of my head: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Lighting of the Beacons -- The fantastic aerial scenery and the sensation of that message being sent from Gondor to Rohan just blew me away. Hey, if I can't make a trip to Middle-earth, I'll settle for New Zeeland. <LI>My first glimpse of Minas Tirith on the plain - It was breathtaking. I have to admit my personal Minas Tirith now looks a lot like PJ's!<LI>Sean Astin's portrayal of Sam -- Sam was just plain awesome. If Frodo was my "hero" in Tolkien's book, Sam was my hero in PJ's films. Astin was so good in his portrayal that he made me forget some of the less desirable script alterations and the fact that Sam should have looked a bit more tan, seeing that he was a Harfoot.<LI>The new and improved Frodo! All joking aside, I felt that Wood's Frodo in RotK came a lot closer to what I'd hoped to see than the Frodo of PJ's TTT. He was different than Tolkien's Frodo -- more passive and vulnerable, less mature and more reliant on Sam, but he was still someone I could appreciate in the context of PJ's tale.<LI>Pippin's poignant singing while the Rohan cavalry and Faramir galloped into the mouth of death. I cursed what the Palantir had done to Denethor, even though few others in the audience would have had that missing piece of background information.<LI>98% of what happened on the slopes of Mount Doom and the actual Chambers of Fire ---the scene where Frodo lies on the mountain in Sam's arms and describes the Wheel of Fire, Samwise carrying Frodo, and Frodo's final declaration at the Crack of Doom. <LI>The scene at Grey Havens, especially Frodo's accepting smile as he boards the ship. And unlike some others, I wanted to see that final kiss between Frodo and Sam (but then I come from an ethnic group where a lot of kissing goes on!) <LI> the depiction of Middle-earth in general -- Just as in the other movies, the overall visuals were generally faithful to Tolkien, or at least to those artists we are used to seeing. <LI> those glistening words about grey rain curtains turning to silver glass, white shores and a far green country under a swift sunrise, even if the phrase was put forward in a wholly different context! The words gave me chills. </UL>Yes, there were things I still had trouble with. Sam and Frodo's split-up worked cinematically, but I still would have preferred a closer adherence to the book. I just don't think it would have happened in this manner --- anyway, anyhow! Also, seeing a Shire that had not changed after the War.... Yes, there was no way they could have included the Scouring, but the Shire did change and that bothered me, even though many have said how they appreciated the Inn scene which showed the disillusionment of "veterans" returning after a war. Arwen and Elrond at the end....Surely a father would have shown more grief! That Elf had a block of ice instead of a heart...The 2 percent at Mount Doom I had trouble with -- Gollum struggling with an invisible Frodo. Yes, I know it's canon, but it surely did look strange!Sauron the Searchlight -- There had to have been another way to do this than a brilliant light reminiscent of a floodlight in front of a newly opened store.And finally....not really explaining why Frodo left. I've gotten a lot of questions from casual moviegoers who could not understand what was going on, and why a shoulder wound would cause a hobbit to leave all the places and people he loved. There should be some indication of what's going on inside.... Still, if I weigh the ups and I weigh the downs, I am exceedingly glad that PJ made this movie. And I would hope to see it win some recognition from fellow filmakers in April.[ 3:37 PM January 08, 2004: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Meela

01-08-2004, 04:56 PM

I just saw Rotk for the sixth time. For most films, if you get to the sixth viewing you're usually pretty darn fed up with the film, and find yourself drifting off throughout half of it. Or at least I normally am. With Rotk though, I'm finding that I enjoy it more each time. I was thoroughly engrossed throughout the whole film. I found that I also get more involved with each viewing. Emotionally, that is, with the characters. Especially the Hobbits. I have a habit of not usually caring about the Hobbits, but I was crying along with the rest of them at the Grey Havens.I'm still in love with the beacon scene, I laugh more and more at Denethor's bungee jump gone wrong, and I'm getting more and more used to seeing grass on the top of Minas Tirith. I'm also thinking that each time I watch the film, the army of Mordor seems less and less of a threat. And I'm increasingly moved by Sam.Generally, it's a better film than it was at the start.

Lord of Angmar

01-08-2004, 05:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I have a habit of not usually caring about the Hobbits<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is quite a nasty habit to have. Hope you can break it.

The Great Shadowfax

01-08-2004, 09:49 PM

oh man..its been too long since i've seen ROTK and i need to go back soon.... well anyways, i did find that the Paths of the Dead wasnt as creepy as i had hoped, and the ghost king dude kind of reminded me of Captain Barbosa in PotC (in the moonlight ofcourse). and when aragorn summoned them to fullfill they're oath it seemed more like he was saying, "c'mon, you guys...let's go...". but whatever. now being the horse fanatic that i am, i must say that my favorite epich shot in the whole movie was by far the scene of the rohirrim riding to the aid of gondor ...*eyes twinkle in blissful remembrence* and i love the part where frodo tells sam to "Go home"...so sad and i could probably say a whole bunch of other scenes but i'm sure other people have already said them SEE YOU ON THE GREAT PLAINS IN THE SKY ~Luindringiel~ ~Pennsarnien~

The Only Real Estel

01-08-2004, 09:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>i did find that the Paths of the Dead wasnt as creepy as i had hoped, and the ghost king dude kind of reminded me of Captain Barbosa in PotC (in the moonlight ofcourse). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ditto. They weren't real creepy, but I guess they have to keep it at PG-13 (plus I'm not easily creeped). And I also thought the captain/leader/king guy looked like a moonlighted Barbosa. Wierd.

Evisse the Blue

01-09-2004, 09:55 AM

Well - finally! I can add my two cents here. I actually saw it about 5 days ago, and I saw it twice so far, so I can say with a fair degree of certainty that it not only is the best of the trilogy, but one of the best movies I have ever seen, and will see from now on.Even if I wasn't a fan, even if I hadn't read the books, heck, even if I hadn't seen the first two films, I still would have enjoyed ROTK: esthetically speaking, it's nearly flawless! It is a wonderful experience, visually, emotionally and intellectually. Wow, so many big words. Let me explain why I said 'nearly' flawless: I am a fierce enemy of what is generally known as 'cheese': and the movie had its share of cheese. (the Aragorn - Arwen kiss springs to mind). But, what can you do, this is hollywood, heh, and which hollywood movie doesn't do cheese?? Granted, X Files the Movie was absolutely cheeseless and 100% intellectually stimulating, but don't worry, I'm not trying to prove a point here. Ok, so I loved the movie not necessarily as a Tolkien fan, but as a regular person who appreciates beauty. Even if in my former capacity I was devastated by the changes in Denethor's character, by the distorsion of the Gollum-Sam-Frodo relationship, by the omission of very important scenes and lines - I could still appreciate how even those things fit in to create a memorable movie. All in all, it was an amazing visual journey.As far as movies go, ROTK is as good as it gets. If you are looking for pure perfection, read the books.My favourite scene is not from the books: it is the scene with Pippin singing, Denethor gulping his food and Faramir and his men riding to Osgiliath. I'd like to see any movie top that scene, I'd like to see any even try! Another scene which really made me scream out loud 'perfection!' was the Frodo at Mt Doom scene, when he claims the Ring. Lots have discussed it before, so I won't insist. Also,the Eowyn vs the Witchking confrontation was very well done, keeping true to the book, though without some of the original dialogue. I wish Merry's part was more significant, though. The Grey Havens scene was moving and well-acted. The entire movie was well-acted, but I have to mention Aragorn let me down just a little, but maybe because I had too high expectations. The ending I loved - although when reading the books I was faintly dissapointed by the 'well, I'm back' unspectacular ending - in the movie it played very sweet and appropriate. Despite the praises, I have to mention a scene which I absolutely hate: Gandalf hitting Pippin with the staff after he pledges allegiance to Denethor. Whatever happened to 'generous deed must not be checked by cold council'?? Well, I guess it's too much to ask... Oh, and not that I hate it or anything, but Shelob gave me the creeps! I generally laugh at horror movies but this precious CGI character had me shivering with terror and disgust from head to toe. I even had a nightmare about it, for Pete (Jackson's! )sake. The score was also beautiful. 'Into the West' is a really haunting song, although my favourite is still 'May it be'. Wheew, ok. I'm glad I got this off my chest. If you don't have the patience to read all through this, it can be summed up thus: 10+ and congratulations to the cast and crew, especially PJ. They are a talented bunch![ 10:58 AM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Evisse the Blue ]

Essex

01-09-2004, 11:19 AM

Just some replies to some great comments I’ve just read on this thread….SaucepanMan <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Maybe I have the wrong impression, but it seems to me that, after an initial flurry of appreciation, this forum seems to have become rather negative towards the film, with the majority of recent posts being critical of it. Like you, Essex, I really cannot bring myself to be too critical, given the impact that the film has had on me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I really feel pity towards those who have become critical of this film. I was exactly like this when I first saw Two Towers. I was so gutted I did not like TT when I first saw it. (It took a couple of viewings to like it and the EE is a masterpiece). I spent a lot of time worrying if ROTK could be that good, but thankfully it was (even with the cinema lights on that they couldn’t turn off on my first viewing!). On second viewing it is even better. I really do feel sorry towards those who don’t like the film.Mark12_30 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It has given me a new and fresh enjoyment of the boks as they are. On several counts my overly simplistic view of the books has been challenged and expanded by this film. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I’ve loved reading lotr each time I’ve first seen each of the films over the past couple of years. I can’t believe it sometimes when I say "THAT would never happen in the book!" and then read the book, and lo and behold it IS there (in one format or another). For example, Gandalf hitting Denethor. I read that section the other day, and Gandalf DOES strike Denethor up near the Pyre, to get through the door and to remove a sword from Denethor’s hand. OK not as much as in the film, but it’s still there. Also, the warg attack in TT which I didn’t like. There is a battle between some of Theoden’s troops and Warg riders alluded to in TT. Just one sentence, but it’s there.Child of the 7th age <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes, there were things I still had trouble with. Sam and Frodo's split-up worked cinematically, but I still would have preferred a closer adherence to the book. I just don't think it would have happened in this manner --- anyway, anyhow! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can see your point. But did Sam really go away? I think he just sat down and cried, went down a couple of steps in a stupor and then FELL the rest of the way. Then he rushed back to catch up. I mean the only real difference is that Frodo hacked through the webs himself, and it was Frodo not Sam confronting Gollum once they had got out of the tunnels. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Also, seeing a Shire that had not changed after the War.... Yes, there was no way they could have included the Scouring, but the Shire did change and that bothered me, even though many have said how they appreciated the Inn scene which showed the disillusionment of "veterans" returning after a war. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now viewing the movie I personally think they COULD have included the scouring, at least in the EE. I was waiting for a spectacular emotional homecoming, and thought that the scouring WOULD be anti climactic. But viewing the low key entrance the hobbits had to the Shire, it could have worked. Just imagine the scene between Frodo and Saruman. Wow.Evisse <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My favourite scene is not from the books: it is the scene with Pippin singing, Denethor gulping his food and Faramir and his men riding to Osgiliath. I'd like to see any movie top that scene, I'd like to see any even try! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Great point. The part of that scene that made me jump (on both viewings) is where Pippin finishes his song and you see the arrows of the orcs firing towards Farmir’s forces. The sound of the arrows being let loose is terrifying. I was reminded of The Charge of the Light Brigade with this scene. The horse riders riding towards certain death. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Also,the Eowyn vs the Witchking confrontation was very well done, keeping true to the book, though without some of the original dialogue. I wish Merry's part was more significant, though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I thought we would have had mention somehow of Galadriel’s (movie) gift to Merry. Ie the sword of Numenor. And also, some of my favourite bits in the book to do with Merry. Ie ‘are you going to bury me’, ‘he should have been borne in honour into the city’ and ‘you should make him a knight of the riddermark’ and so on! There’s still the EE though........Just imagine how good this film will be when the EE version comes out………. How do you better the best film ever made????????? I can’t wait.....

mark12_30

01-09-2004, 11:45 AM

Doug, since you bring Saruman back up...I had written a short piece on Saruman, asking PJ to put him in Frodo's path for the RotK EE, which I intended to send to TORn. Could y'all give it a review? Please? <A HREF="http://members.cox.net/hrwright61/SarumanFrodo.rtf" TARGET=_blank>Saruman And Frodo</A>I'd be grateful...--mark12_30

Imladris

01-09-2004, 01:36 PM

That's very good, Mark 12_30! I like the fact that the reason you gave for incorporating the scene with Saruman in the EE was because of Frodo's character developement. It sounds like a much better reason than: "Tolkien had it in there so you had better add it!" I like that you substantiate your statements with the letters of Tolkien, with examples of how the movies changed his character (the Ford and the Ringwraith bit have always disappointed me), and your polite and understanding tone. But I do have a few questions with this sentence: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> This would require that you bring back only six actors, Christopher Lee, Brad Dourif and the four hobbits, and reassemble their costumes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Shouldn't there be a colon after "actors" instead of a comma because you are listing them? Or maybe in parenthesis? Of course, I do have a strange addiction to parenthesis and colons...Those are just my opinions....feel free to disregard them.

mark12_30

01-09-2004, 05:27 PM

Correct, Imladris, and thank you. I shall put that on my list of edits. Much oblidged!

elenquesse

01-09-2004, 06:03 PM

Inspiring. I can't imagine loving another movie more.

Sirithrodwen123

01-09-2004, 06:52 PM

This movie is the most awesome of all three and should be given every movie award there is. I loved Arwens dress when you last see her, it is sooo cool.

Lyta_Underhill

01-09-2004, 11:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I had written a short piece on Saruman, asking PJ to put him in Frodo's path for the RotK EE, which I intended to send to TORn. Could y'all give it a review? Please? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I downloaded and read your piece, Helen, and I must say that you're preaching to the choir here! I do wonder whether that would throw off whatever he had planned for the demise of Saruman in the EE or not...it does seem to be something that could possibly be inserted. Getting six actors together so long after the fact might be troublesome, though. On a less editorial note but more a spin-off effect, I also had a thought:Another possibility, although somewhat weaker and not completely canon, would be thus: Frodo is allowed the show of mercy through tolerance of the ignorant and sometimes boorish nature of certain hobbits of the Shire who have made their boorishness known in an earlier part of the film. I speak of Ted Sandyman, who speaks to Rosie in the Extended FOTR and earns a grumble from Sam. Let’s posit that Sam sees Rosie and gets up to “go get her” as he did in the ROTK theatrical version. Perhaps Sandyman sees this and challenges Sam, telling him that she’s taken—by him. Sandyman offers violence, which Sam begins to return. Enter Frodo between them, who simply gets between the fray and puts himself in the way of whatever damage would be done. He says something to the effect of his words during the Scouring: do not kill hobbits, even if they have become as bad as he (Sandyman) is, even if they really have gone over to the other side and are not doing it out of fear. It would not have the great impact that the Frodo/Saruman exchange has, but it might get across an element of the quality of mercy and understanding that seems to be an undercurrent in the Green Dragon scene to begin with, the idea that, even if no one ever knows what you have suffered and done for them, it doesn’t make them any less deserving of that protection. It would, perhaps, resonate back to the idea (that also is not covered in the movie to my regret, but, oh well!) that finally helps Frodo overcome the despair that hits him as he watches the Morgul Host departing towards the West. Even if no one ever knows or lives to see it, it must be done, for it is the right thing to do. This also resonates with the “hardness” that becomes part of Sam’s being at the approach to Mount Doom. Sam may feel some resentment or amazement at not being given respect for what he has done, or may feel that he did not suffer the Quest to Mt. Doom just so he could be confronted by an idiot in the Green Dragon, and this may cause him to wish to show him “where he’s been,” a sort of alienation effect that manifests through an aggressive impulse. This effect might be seen even more clearly in Merry and Pippin, who are seasoned warriors by this time. Pippin in particular would be prone to a retaliatory outburst in such a situation (viz. his threat when the man calls Frodo a “cock-a-whoop”). This aggressive stance on the part of the three hobbits could be contrasted to Frodo’s impulse to let it be or simply stand in the way of the offered violence in order to stop it, reminding Sam of the lesson of Gollum, the fact that, even if the focus was Frodo’s becoming like Gollum, in the end, he fulfilled a destiny beyond mere justice and his comeuppance was dealt by the higher power. I’m not sure exactly how to explain the effect, but it is possible that such a short scene could have been included in the Green Dragon to contrast Frodo to the others. I kind of doubt it, though, as the dynamic that runs through that scene is the out of place nature of all four hobbits. Sam is the only one who seems to jump right back into Shire life as if he never left. Even Merry and Pippin seem rarified by the experience and set apart from the blind denizens of the Green Dragon. It does not single Frodo out, but perhaps an additional encounter here would set him apart. One could even escalate it by having Merry and Pippin drawing sword to challenge the interloper. As a matter of fact, any sort of conflict done in this manner to show the difference in how Sam, Merry and Pippin would handle it, contrasted with Frodo's response, would get some of this point across. I hope my long-windedness hasn’t driven everyone away from the thread! Sorry if this wasn't exactly a review! Cheers! Lyta

Lalaith

01-10-2004, 10:37 AM

These ideas are interesting, and might redress a complaint I have heard from many, many non-Tolkienites, both friends and film reviewers, that while the film is excellent as a whole, it is let down by the post-Mount Doom part is dull and drags on. Now, this is not *my* complaint personally, (although I did find the Grey Havens a mite drawn-out and soppy)but this could be because I had the book in my mind the whole time. And the end chapters do not feel in the least superfluous in the book. I initially thought PJ's reason for leaving out the Scouring was valid, but maybe his stripping-down of the final chapters is the reason so many people feel bored by them - to have the homecoming resulting in nothing but a few glances in the pub, wooing of Rosie and Frodo clutching his chest, feels a little flat. I think these ideas you've come up with would improve this feeling of 'flatness'.

The Only Real Estel

01-10-2004, 01:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Maybe I have the wrong impression, but it seems to me that, after an initial flurry of appreciation, this forum seems to have become rather negative towards the film, with the majority of recent posts being critical of it. Like you, Essex, I really cannot bring myself to be too critical, given the impact that the film has had on me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Personally, I'd rather say a few things that bugged me, or could'v been done better without harping on them to much, then simply echo in agreement about how things where so cool, etc. It doesnt' ruin my enjoment of the movie, so it doesn't bother me :/ .

The Saucepan Man

01-10-2004, 06:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Maybe I have the wrong impression, but it seems to me that, after an initial flurry of appreciation, this forum seems to have become rather negative towards the film, with the majority of recent posts being critical of it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just to be clear, I was not saying there that people should not be expressing their negative opinions about the film. Of course they should be, if that's how they feel. Indeed, I have expressed my own misgivings about it. But, from a personal point of view, I just find it hard to be too exacting in my criticism in light of the incredible impression that this film has made on me.And in any event, the general tone of the forum seems now to have become more positive. Perhaps it is in the nature of these things that the overall feeling will sway one way and then the other.

Neferchoirwen

01-11-2004, 04:16 AM

I always thought that I can never bear to see the ending, but now, I think that I can bear seeing it again! ---I mean in a good way...I had to stop my daily reading regiment because of the fimls' impact on my brain! It's the movie of all movies! Tolkien at its purest, so far.Honestly, I was satisfied by Jackson. Truly, from one Tolkien fan to another, I honor him the way I honor someone who hails from my hometown...The spotlight thing was okay for me. I mean, how would they know that they were seen? The red light definitely made the effect made that Sauron sees them.Denethor's death was given a very Shakespearean edge, for the lack of a better adjective. I really didn't like the way he died---or at least the way he burned in the books. Falling off gave him the dignity that only he can attempt to give himself. Gravefully set against the "backdrop" of the war, the thought that no one among the soldiers fighting knew that their Steward dying and previously gone mad is very dramatic.There is something about the smiles of the characters. Gandalf smiles at almost anything...Galadriel's smile is one of the most endearing that shined off of the other's faces. It just shows how much love she has for Frodo, and how actually happy she is.We first met Elrond at the beggining, where he just gives a polite smile to Frodo, which is before he heals him. Seeing him smile at the end of the films is like a huge sigh of relief: the enemy has been defeated, and they can now pass on to Valinor.Frodo almost never smiles. At least as happily as he did as he goes on board the ship. Before he leaves the shire, he is stressed by the same stress he shares with his uncle: the Sackville-Bagginses. Plus the sudden departure of Bilbo. As the Ring takes its toll, he grows weary. Seeing him smile like that on the way to Valinor was heartwarming, and oh so Hobbit-like.I've no problems about the ommission of the Scouring of the Shire. Honestly, it would have never worked. However, the same still happened: as the four gallant halflings return to being Hobbits once again, all in Gondorean garb, they aren't given a welcome they truly deserve. It just made the Hobbit sensibility more defined. THAT and one other thing: After a glorious war at the Pellenor and at the Moria gate, scene after scene of Hobbits fighting each other wouldn't work: it'll look too cute, and it would't be appreciated. Anti-climactic.The Gollum-Sam lembas confrontation was very funny! I didn't like it that Sam's shadow wasn't left to be percieved as a huge person. I liked it the way it was, but nevertheless, it underlines Sam's bravery.Never thought of Imrahil until now. I did expect to see him the film, but it didn't bother me.The obviously cropped Eowyn-Faramir ship is expected to show up in the Extended Edition, as well as Faramir's proclamation of princedom in Ithilien...I hope.The ships were supposed to be ships, right? THey looked more like yachts to me...Although it would fit all passengers who also happened to be in the scene.Gondor was lovely! Thinking of doing a cross-stitch project...good luck to me. And yet it's a shame that the White Tree wasn't seen replaced...didn't notice it at the aerial view. Except for something I notice from the first movie. The Gondor that Gandalf went to for research and fact finding seemed cramped, unless the level alloted for scholars is relatively narrow. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> My friends...you bow to no one!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I practically bawled at that one.Gimli's remarks about the dead were awesome. I just thought that his Irish interjections were not needed. "laddie" huh? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That only counts as one!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The only amount of comic relief that the dear dwarf delivered is perfect. Plus, Legolas counting out loud...it's just enough.

Everdawn

01-11-2004, 04:54 AM

Ok, Now that ive seen ROTK 4 times, i LOVE it! The first time i saw it was got so upset becuse Imrahil wasnt in it.But now that ive gotten myself past that point, i just dont care anymore, and all i want is to enjoy what Peter Jackson and his wonderful crew gave us to watch. I think we should be saying thankyou for giving us a visual adaptation and inspiring millions more people to read the books than being so critical, after all, we are lucky that someone made LOTR into a movie, arent we?

Feared Half-Elf

01-11-2004, 05:04 AM

I only saw Rotk last night, and words cannot describe how cool I thought it was! Me and my friend good plenty of strange look as we were the only ones who dressed up. we turned up as random elves, with plastic bows and everything. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That still only counts as one! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Being a Legolas fan, I found his stunt really cool! Gimli's line made everybody in the cinema burst out laughing, me included.I also like Gimli's line before they go to the balck gate. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Certain death, tiny chance of success. What are we waiting for? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I can't remember if that's the proper line.Another thing i thought was good was the gollum 'sneaking' episode!The computer graphics were spectacular, and Shelob was much better than I thought she would be.However, there are some things I felt weren't as good.As several people have said, I was disappointed that the love between Faramir and Eowyn wasn't made more obvious. Not all actors are like Ian Mckellen, people who can convey everything that he is thinking in a frown. PJ needed to elongate the Faramir/Eowyn thing to make it impossible to overlook. I was disappointed too that the white tree wasn't replaced. Is it just me, or weren't the Dunadain supposed to catch up with Aragorn and then accompany him, Legolas and Gimli through the Paths of the Dead?

Rouroni

01-11-2004, 03:54 PM

Ah, yes. This was the undeniable best of the trilogy. However, I did miss the Scouring and the Houses of Healing, (which will be in the EE, I am absolutaly certain.). The end was very well done, despite a lack of hobbit scouring. I loved the kiss Frodo gave to Sam at the Havens, it was so personal and loving, especially because Frodo did not kiss Merry or Pippin.Some people complain that they thought the kiss out of taste, but no one complained in Fellowship when Aragorn kissed Boromir as he was dying.I didnt like that Frodo pushed Gullum into Orodruin. It was supposed to be an accident, a twist of fate, much like the many times Gullum could have been killed, and hadn't. All in all, an excellent movie, and i plan on seeing it next weekend for the ninth time.

The Saucepan Man

01-11-2004, 05:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I was disappointed too that the white tree wasn't replaced. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The White Tree was in bloom at Aragorn's coronation. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I didnt like that Frodo pushed Gullum into Orodruin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He didn't. They both fell off the edge while fighting for the Ring.

Feared Half-Elf

01-12-2004, 11:09 AM

I know that the White Tree was in bloom at the coronation, but most people wouldn't see that.

AlexTook

01-13-2004, 01:36 PM

I did NOT like the movie adaptation that Peter Jackson made. I never doubted that The ROTK movie was going to be a great and intriguing story for those who had never read the books. It is an impressive movie production for those in the film industry. This trilogy is an achievement in the history of movie making that has pushed the enveloped in the CG area. It is a great entertainment especially for the videogame generation. There was never any doubt in my mind that with the amount of money allocated to this project, the use of barely known actors, the directing by a low paying B-Movie director and the substantial savings of making them in New Zealand, these films were not going to be successful at the Box Office. I expected it to be a great spectacle no matter how many senseless changes and omissions for the sake of time or due to the inexperience of Peter Jackson and arrogance of the screenwriters of what "work or does not work", and that "action is better than characterization". Peter Jackson could not handle the visualization of the whole storyline and action. After so much unnecessary filming and resources available to the project, I did not expect it to be so incomplete, inconsistent, incoherent and wrong. The extended version of this movie will show unimportant sequences, more interaction of all the characters that were glossed over in the previous 2 films, improvements in the timeline, editing, music and details that will please the fans and help to understand Jackson's story better; However, unless the story is totally different, the extended edition will NOT correct the damage done to Frodo, Gandalf, Gimli, Denethor, Elrond, Saruman, Théoden, Eomer, Faramir, Gondor, Mordor, Sauron, The Pelennor Fields, The Ride of the Rohirrim, Dernhelm, and Beregorn. The significance of the opposing strategies of Gandalf and Sauron will not be saved. The significance of Aragorn and his role in the War and return as a King will not be corrected. After seeing the Two Towers, I knew that Peter Jackson could not catch up with the story unless he made a 4 or 5-hour movie or leave out great cinematic and dramatic opportunities from the original story. He did not have enough time for post-production either. This is reflected in the fact that: 1) He could not handle the correct geography and the very specific description around Minas Tirith including The Pelennor Fields, the situation and lower altitude of Osgiliath on the Anduin River. He failed in the portrayal of the structures described by Tolkien: a wall surrounding the Pelennor Field, farms, barns, homesteads, the Causeway Forts. All these details had a function in the story which not only made it credible but also added to the drama and complexity to "The Battle of our Times". For example, it made no sense that Faramir and anyone in his company would go blindly to fight openly to nearby Osgiliath without the protection of a fort, a wall, a trench, a hill or Gandalf to fend off from the Nazgul! It diminished Faramir from a wise, brave, sensitive and respected leader to a crybaby who would lead his fellow Gondorians to their certain death because he wanted the approval of his mad father. Military leaders don't act like that and followers are not as stupid to follow them either. 2) There was no planned defense or war strategy by either side at all. After the lighting of the beacons no army showed up except for the Rohirrim. No Mordor army was sent out to block the roads to prevent their arrival. At the end the significance of their effort was diminished after Peter Jackson decided that battle had to be won by ghosts. We ended up with a very simplistic battle of CG enemy armies, allied CG horses and ghost, and a deficient filmable real human armies; It was a battle without real drama and few moments of identifiable feelings opposite to what Tolkien described in his tale. 3) Peter Jackson could not realize on the screen the weather of Mordor. He was not able to include its dramatic effect on the mood of the characters and of people of Minas Tirith and the urgency of the ride of the Rohirrim. He was not able to include the plot twists in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields caused by the dark clouds of Mordor, the changing of the wind, the clearing of the sky and the falling of rain. 4) The fall of Sauron and the destruction of Mordor were inferior sequences both in credible drama and special effects. 5) He probably missed that the special effects of the death of Gollum in lava were not credible. 6) The editing was a rushed and awful job. It detracted from the drama of both the destruction of the Ring and the Last stance of the Army of the West at the Black Gate. The lack of attention to detail and confusing timeline diminished the credibility of the story.I wish that for the Extended Edition DVD, Peter Jackson would submit the original 4 1/2 movie he said he made instead of trying to fix the theatrical version with 20 or 40 minutes or more extra footage. I am thankful to PJ that as a result of these movies more people will read the books and admire Tolkien. I hope that whatever film company makes "The Hobbit" they will use the same actors, CG people, costume and art designers but pick a better screenwriter team, and a smarter and more considerate director than Peter Jackson