ROTK Minor Change Wishlist [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

doug*platypus

12-18-2003, 09:26 PM

Following Elendur's excellent idea about a minor change wishlist, this thread is for all those thousands of nitpicks. The things that frustrate you, and maybe only you. Anything that seems too picky to mention on any of the main threads.Gimli handing Gandalf the crown? What's the connection there? Does Gimli have any relevance at all to the throne of Gondor? Or does Faramir (not to mention Éomer) have to take a backseat just because he's not in the Fellowship? So much for Aragorn's people choosing him as king. They have absolutely no say in the matter in the movie.

Shy Hobbit

12-18-2003, 09:45 PM

I was really disappointed that Frodo didn't bear the crown to Gandalf, but I suppose we'll have to deal with it now No scene with Merry swearing service to Theoden.No Shadowfax at the Havens. Galadriel mentioned the three rings, and apparently some have spotted it on Gandalf, but I failed to notice. I'm afraid people who haven't read the books will believe that Celeborn has the third ring. (aren't elves in the spotlight enough?)And I really, really could have done without "Gothmog", as I'm assuming that's who the one-eyed freak was. He seemed totally out of the spirit of the story.

doug*platypus

12-18-2003, 09:51 PM

Here's my biggest minor change disappointment: Frodo's writing!First of all, it was in english not elvish (not sure if the Red Book was in elvish, but it just didn't seem right). Main problem was, since it didn't require translation it was easy to read on a movie screen. This line in particular stuck out: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And Sam? What can I say about Sam? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, but it sounds more like the journal of a 10-year old than something written by Frodo Baggins.Also, I thought that changing the title to: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The Lord of the Rings by Frodo Baggins <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>showed little taste. The proper title of his book, The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King sounds much better. After all, the lines we could read above don't even appear in The Lord of the Rings as we know it.

Diamond18

12-18-2003, 10:54 PM

I would have liked to see Sam go home to Bagend.... When it ended on the Bagshot Row door I thought, "Huh? what's the significance of that door?"I would have liked Minas Morgul to be further away from the stairs." to see other women besides Eowyn at Dunharrow. If it's "tradition" for the women to see the men off, where were they?" Shelob's Lair to be pitch black but visible. Heh." The Grey Havens to be more grey." Merry and Pippin to be noticeably taller than Frodo and Sam.

TheBladeThatWasBroken

12-19-2003, 06:29 AM

I wanted to see the Scouring of the Shire... or at least SOME scenes w/ Saruman

Essex

12-19-2003, 06:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Gimli handing Gandalf the crown? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I winced when I first saw this, but I realised why after the scene finished.Frodo was standing with the other hobbits. We needed this because we did not have the Aragorn's kneeling scene on the field of cormallen but here at the coronation. Aragorn kneeling to the hobbits is my favourite part of the film, and as I've said on other posts, I cried like a baby! So we couldn't have had Frodo standing by the door, and then running off to join the other hobbits.Why gimli with the crown though? Well, Legolas was with the other elves: Elrond, Arwen et all, so Gimli had no one to stand with in the line up, so Jackson killed two birds with one stone and had Gimli holding the cushion.

Orofaniel

12-19-2003, 07:51 AM

My wish list:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Saruman- I definitely think that Saruman should have been a part of RotK. It's a bit "odd" when a "major" character as him disappear in the last movie when he has had a big part in the two first movies. (My opinion though.) I also think he's a great character....<LI>The Sourcing of the Shire- I love that chapter! I'm a bit disappointed that they didn't show it in the movie.<LI> The Houses of Healing- I think they should have a couple of short scenes with this as well. I think it was a bit weird that Faramir and Eowyn in the end of the movie (When Arwen and Aragorn kissed) just stood there, smiling. Why did they stand together? That's the question I would have asked if I hadn't read the books. <LI>The Mouth of Sauron- I was looking forwards to see the Mouth of Sauron. Instead I felt that the great "eye" was replacing him. <LI>Denethor- He should have thrown himself on the fire.<LI> Eowyn- While she fought with the Witch King she should have acted more "less-Shampoo-Commercial-like", if you know what I mean. While she said "I'm not a man, I'm a woman!" she waved with her hair in the wind, and I think it was a bit fake, and unlike the "book Eowyn".<LI>Legolas- He should really stop the "fake" jumps of his. He had one in TTT when he jumped up on the horse backwards...or something. This time he jumped on the Oliphaunt.....Geesh...<LI>Gollum- He should never create the small "conflict" between Frodo and Sam. He told Frodo that Sam wanted the ring....and the Lembas bread situation.<LI>Galadriel- That she didn't "introduce" the movie as she did in the first two movies. I also think that perhaps she should have said the lines in the end while they were showing a map.....But Frodo was alright... </UL>That is my wish list…it’s not that short either.Anyway, I think that the movies are good, and that the cast & crew have done a great job. I can’t really “complain” because I wouldn’t had done it better myself…

BeeBombadil

12-19-2003, 12:01 PM

1. A more dignified Denethor 2. Houses of Healing 3. More drama before the Black Gate 4. More Faramir

Iris Alantiel

12-19-2003, 02:19 PM

First off, I just want to point out that I'm not going to complain about anything being "non-book" here, because I deliberately went into the movie NOT expecting it to be the book. But I think the following things are important even if you haven't read the book and are just watching the movies.Here's my own personal wishlist: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>It would have been nice to see more of how Rosie and Sam get together at the end. I mean, I get the point that he comes back all empowered and brave from his adventures and gets the courage to talk to her and they get married, but I would have loved to see some interaction between them, like perhaps a conversation. As is, all we see is him getting up to go talk to her and then next thing you know, it's their wedding day. <LI>I wish the Army of the Dead had looked a bit less like a plague of locusts descending on the Battle of Pelennor Fields.<LI>Saruman and Wormtongue. I mean, what happened to them anyway??? I know it's been said, but honestly, that entire part of the plot lacks closure in the context of the whole trilogy - he's like this huge important villain all through the first two movies and then you never see what happens to him.<LI> Okay, I know this is technically kind of a book complaint, sort of, but really - if I was going to the movies having never read the books, the thing I would want to know is, "Wow, how did Éowyn get over Aragorn so quick?" They had to put in the part about Faramir and Éowyn in order to make it make sense that Éowyn was suddenly happy and smiling and had changed her mind.<LI>At the coronation, when Aragorn saw Arwen again, did he really have to jump her like that? I mean, I know he hadn't seen her for a while, but really! Not very regal . . . </UL>

Eomer of the Rohirrim

12-19-2003, 03:00 PM

I hold many of the wishes already listed. I would like to add one of my own.At the battle of the Pellenor fields, do any of you remember these words?"Thus came Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elessar, Isildur's heir, out of the Paths of the Dead, borne upon a wind from the Sea to the kingdom of Gondor, and the mirth of the Rohirrim was a torrent of laughter and a flashing of swords, and the joy and wonder of the City was a music of trumpets and a ringing of bells."Instead, movie-'Gorn just kind of appeared and merged in. NOBODY noticed.If Theoden's death, Eowyn's injury and Eomer's despair and subsequent madness had all been done properly right before it, the stage would have been set for (and I mean this) the greatest moment in cinematic history.As it happened the scene was merely alright. They really missed the boat on that one.

peonydeepdelver

12-19-2003, 03:08 PM

This may seem insignificant, but it would've been nice to show that Bill the pony was alive and well... yes, I DID think about that when they returned to the Shire. But really, I missed the Houses of Healing. Especially when they showed everyone riding to the Black Gates, and there was the quickest shot of Merry. 0_o

Lalaith

12-19-2003, 05:52 PM

Much as I love Merry and Pippin, why were they there on the podium being bowed to? That homage should have been for the Ringbearers alone.

Diamond18

12-19-2003, 08:51 PM

Well, Merry helped kill the Witch-King and Pippin saved Faramir, but yeah....Anyway, a few of these wishes are kind of major. I was going to add that I hated Denethor's hair.... What was with that hairline? I kept formulating quips about Grundorian Hair Gel in my mind....[ 9:52 PM December 19, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

ElenCala Isil

12-19-2003, 08:55 PM

Theoden and Merry...there was just no real connection in the movie. Which was really dissapointing to me, as it's one of my favourite parts of the book. I hope it'll be in the EE..I have seen pictures of it, but..who knows.

ArathorofBarahir

12-19-2003, 10:05 PM

To tell you the truth, the only thing I would change would be Same at Bagend and more battle scenes at the Black Gate and the Mouth of Sauron. I however did like the addtion of Gothmog.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

12-20-2003, 04:25 PM

I think it would have been fantastic if Gothmog had turned out to be a huge, ferocious, spine-chilling Uruk. Not your typical farmyard animal.

The Silver-shod Muse

12-20-2003, 07:18 PM

1. (the most unforgivable) Gollum when he leaps on invisi-Frodo. That was the single worst scene in the movie. Comical, really.2. I wanted Ioreth's line, "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer", the scene at the crossroads before Minas Morgul when Frodo and Sam see the stone king's head crowned with golden flowers, and Legolas' newfound obsession with the sea after he hears the gulls. 3. The singing of the Rohirrim on the battlefield!!! I could have forgiven everything else...4. That oath-breakers were green (honestly, that's just silly), and that they looked slightly decayed, which got me wondering, how is it that spirits decay?5. Eowyn's helmet made her face look like putty, and made her nose looked mashed. I really think they could have found a fiercer-looking helm for the slayer of the Nazgul King.6. Gothmog. Ugh. What a freak-show. He looked like he had bubblegum stuck to his head.7. The music at the beginning made me cringe. It was unabashedly overdramatized. Howard Shore got ahead of himself, but the solos (especially Pip's) more than made up for any fumbles.8. The dialogue. Tolkien's words were at their best in RotK. Why didn't PJ use them? No amount of Hollywood one-liners could've compensated for direct quotes.

Fíriel of Ao Tea Roa

12-20-2003, 08:19 PM

My wish list: going back in time and reminding P.J. in August 2003 that all that he has got left for editing is really just the 3 months left. I honestly belive he could have done much better without so many last minute changes.

doug*platypus

12-21-2003, 09:29 PM

Re-Forging NarsilIf that guy was a smith, I'm Mr. Universe.

kittiewhirl1677

12-21-2003, 10:28 PM

I always imagined Shelob at least TWICE as big!!! She was so small in the movie compared to what I thought she would be...[ 11:29 PM December 21, 2003: Message edited by: kittiewhirl1677 ]

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1

12-22-2003, 09:11 AM

I didn't find Shelob in the least terrifying for some reason, and I normally squeal when I see one... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>6. Gothmog. Ugh. What a freak-show. He looked like he had bubblegum stuck to his head. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh...I merely thought his prosthetics had melted... I would have liked Frodo to have added that line about 'if you touch me again you yourself shall be cast into the Cracks of Doom' or whatever it was he said when Gollum attacked him outside the Sammath Naur...

Eowyn_Wildfire

12-22-2003, 01:18 PM

I agree with most of what people said arwen kinda ruined the movie for me (IMO she looks like a rabbit) I relly wish the hadn't made her so important. also what happened to the banner she made for aragorn that the dunidain brought? and is it just me or when aragorn comes out of the ships doesn't it mention star crowns? (its been awhile since i read the books though)

Failivrin

12-22-2003, 03:51 PM

- more Faramir and Eomer. Really, PJ; David Wenham and Karl Urban are two amazingly talented actors- include them more.-Saruman and Wormtongue. Christopher Lee and Brad Dourif were two of the best actors in all of the movies; don't leave them out; the plot is diminished.-Faramir's hair being black. enough said.-More book dialogue. i hated all of the made up stuff.-"Gothmog". he was hideous and disgusting and whenever he was on screen i found myself wandering away from the gorgeousness and talent of David Wenham or whatever and wishing that "Gothmog" came to a painful, long drawn out, grisly death that i could watch in glorious technicolour.

Morgul Queen

12-23-2003, 01:36 AM

the simple fact that you get a 30 second shot of Frodo and Sam in their Orcish getup, but when you next see them they're back wearing Shire clothes. What's up with that? I thought Frodo didn't *have* anything else. 'You can't go walking around Mordor in naught but your skin.'It isn't even mentioned the Eomer is now king of the Mark. I love Eomer, I adore him, I lick his boots, and was so bitterly dissapointed that the fact that he is now king was skipped. I mean, how could you expect the average cinematic audience to remember that he is Eowyn's brother, and therefore Theoden's heir.The Houses of Healing. 'nuff said.The Grey Havens left me feeling so cheated as that is the place where I always cry in the book. Silent Weeping, Full Out Sobbing, Cruel Choking Sobs. You name it, I've done it in response to that chapter, yet in the Movie...nothing, diddly squat. That needs to be seen to.The dialogue is another major one. Frodo's 'Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!' was butchered, and most of that which I had most wanted to see was gone, including: 'Then you shall go with me,' said the Rider. 'I will bear you before me, under my cloak until we are far afield, and this darkness is yet darker. Such good will should not be denied. Say no more to any man, but come!' 'Thank you indeed!' said Merry. 'Thank you, sir, though I do not know your name.' 'Do you not?' said the Rider softly. 'then call me Dernhelm.' Absolutly beautiful, as is: 'Eowyn, Eowyn!' he cried at last. 'Eowyn, how came you to be here? What madness or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!' By cutting these sorts of lines the beauty and majesty and sheer monumentalness of the story is diminished. *sighs* Let us pray, and wait. The Extended is yet to arrive. Mayhap we sould save the final judgement 'til then?P.S. Is monumentalness even a word?!

Theron Bugtussle

12-23-2003, 11:20 AM

Shakespeare is all sword fights (battles) in Jackson's view.Agreed: More Tolkien text (in dialog and story line), less PJ improvements.Monumentalness should be a word for what I know you are describing!

Failivrin

12-23-2003, 03:22 PM

well what i really REALLY wanted was more of Denethor's calculated madness lines:"Haste! Haste! saly me this renegade, or must I do so myself?""We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West. The West has failed. go back and burn!"and also i wanted Imrahil for:"Amroth for Gondor! Amroth to Faramir!"As a matter of fact, i just WANTED Beregond, Bergil, Imrahil, Halbarad, Elladan and Elrohir in the movie. is that too much for a minor change wishlist?

Angry Oathbreaker

12-23-2003, 05:05 PM

I think the arrival of Rohan should have been done differently: The Morgul Lord is on A HORSE, directing the battering ram Grond. Then he rides triumphantly through the ruined gate where he is confronted by Gandalf. Just before the Morgul Lord prepares to smash Gandalf, a cock crows to the rising sun, the Horns of Rohan are heard in the distance, and Howard Shore's music kicks in helping the audience feel the tide turning; much as the Rohirrim felt singing during battle.Dare I say; like in the book.Mordor was too small.When The One went into the fire, the camera angle should have switched to Gandalf's view, and they see "a shadow rising above the mountains, lightning crowned and malevolent but shortly blown away by the wind. THEN Barad-dur falls and the ground splits etc.Arwen should have been preparing the "Banner of the King" from the first movie - and we see it raised upon the ship's mast when Aragorn arrives during the Pelannor Fields.I wanted to see the Morgul Host issuing from Minas Morgul a little longer...only because it was so neat to finally see it instead of read it!

Everdawn

12-28-2003, 09:34 PM

My wish for a minor change...* Prince Imrahil- he is one of my fave. characters in the book! * Beregond * The romance of Éowyn and Faramir * And the bit in the book where Gimli and Éomer have a "fight" over which elf is fairer.Thats all. Maybe some of it will be in the EE DVD <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and also i wanted Imrahil for:"Amroth for Gondor! Amroth to Faramir!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Imagine how fantastic that would have been, the knights of Dol Amroth riding out to meet them.[ 10:35 PM December 28, 2003: Message edited by: Everdawn ]

Tar-Alcarin

12-28-2003, 09:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> This may seem insignificant, but it would've been nice to show that Bill the pony was alive and well... yes, I DID think about that when they returned to the Shire. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wore a T-shirt that wednsday(sp?) that said "Bill the Pony Lives!" But PJ doesnt care about little things like that does he. oh-well there is always the EE. But i really wanted to see imrahil and the other people. I forgot there names at the moment. O and just about everything listed above. But above all else, i wanted to see Christopher Lee's name in the credits. Why, how could they have put in sean beans name in there, when he did little in that entire film. It should have been a homage to all the major players in LotR, not those featured in RoTK.

Mister Underhill

12-29-2003, 12:56 AM

The signal beacons. They show them lighting across a span that I would estimate roughly as 6,000 miles. The Rohirrim might have made it by next Thanksgiving if they bought Amtrak tickets immediately. Thank goodness for elastic geography. Sméagol's voice. There should have been only a hint of Gollum's raspy purr in his pre-Ring version. That should have been part of the transformation. And what's up with the awful mid-change makeup?Sauron: "I see you!" We had to endure this awful dialog again?! What is Sauron, a playful two-year-old?

Ninya

12-29-2003, 02:23 AM

i was very disappointed that more of the actual STORY was missing from the movie... the battle scenes are cool and all but i was looking forward to Faramir and Eowyn and i got nothin....and what was with Legolas looking all girly at the end?

Olorin

12-29-2003, 02:49 AM

Maybe I'm mistaken, but in the book, didn't Gollum FALL in the lava instead of being pushed in? That annoyed me.

Thor

01-18-2004, 05:06 AM

I thought that the beacon fires were used completely wrongly. In the book they are supposed to be a signal to the people in Gondor that war is coming. So they are supposed to go to various safe havens or to Minas Tirith if a soldier so they can fight. (A side issue - why were all those women and children still in Minas Tirith during the fighting?? They were sent away for their safety, weren't they?) Rohan was summoned by means of a red arrow carried by one of the Rangers (also sadly missing) who was killed on the way back to Gondor. This then causes Denethor to despair even more as he believes Rohan will not come to his aid. Not some stupid morbidity caused by him not wanting to summon them in the first place. All that stuff with Pippin climbing to the beacon tower was really lame in my opinion. Also Gandalf should not be so dismissive of Denethor - he is the ruler of an important city and a clever man (except PJ makes him out to be rather thick)!!! All that smacking him out of the way with his staff was rather high-handed and beyond the scope of Gandalf's role as an advisor and wise man of the age.Oh well, excuse my ranting.I really would have liked the Houses of Healing to be in there as they show Aragorn as a man of peace as well as a great warrior - a worthy man to be king. I also missed the Eowyn/Faramir story. That being said I liked the movie and will be waiting eagerly for the extended version.

elfstone

01-19-2004, 03:03 PM

I guess this would technically be a FotR wish, but I just wish that at some point in the story we could see Elves being merry. They were always so serious and sullen. Just once a rousing "Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!" would have been nice.

Numenorean

01-21-2004, 04:21 AM

Frodos final 'defeat' in Mt Doom: IMO the most pivotal line he says wasnt even there - "I have come. But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. " I didnt believe that was cut on my first viewing, infact it took me 3 viewings just to be certain that it was so pointlessly removed.I agree wholeheartedly with you Eomer of the Rohirrim when you say more needed to be made of Aragorns arrival at Pelannor, could've been such a classic cinema moment instead of just a 'pretty good' one. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think it would have been fantastic if Gothmog had turned out to be a huge, ferocious, spine-chilling Uruk. Not your typical farmyard animal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> too right again Eomer!The Dúnedain of the North needed to be in the movie for so many good reasons, least of all to show that Aragorn wasnt a race of one.Beregond, Bergil, Imrahil, Halbarad, Elladan and Elrohir were all sorely missed for no apparent reason given the amount of camera time that was wasted on flashy non-book moments and dialogue.All-in-all the editing smacks of a 'rush-job' and the script has been warped by too many people working on it. I just hope the EE can save what should've been the clear cut film of the century.

senser81

01-22-2004, 02:20 PM

I think the skipping over of the Scouring of the Shire is indicitive of both TTT and ROTK. To me, it seemed like those movies were less faithful to the Tolkien themes as they degenerated into wasting time between epic battle scenes. I was bored of the battles by the end of ROTK (as well as annoyed with Sam's crying).In FOTR:EE, mirror in Lothlorien shows the Shire being burned and Hobbits being enslaved, and Sam's gift from Galadrial is the box of magic elvish dirt (for lack of a better term). Yet this foreshadowing is abandoned in ROTK when the hobbits return to a miraculously unchanged Shire. I guess the Shire wasn't in danger after all. I wouldn't go as far as saying "that ruined the movie for me", but IMO it was definitely the biggest oversight.

mark12_30

01-22-2004, 02:40 PM

I want to see Frodo choosing to spare Saruman out of pity, mercy, and hope, when the rest of the people present are clamoring for his death. The reason I want to see Frodo showing mercy to Saruman is <A HREF="http://members.cox.net/hrwright61/SarumanFrodo.rtf" TARGET=_blank>here.</A>

Kaiserin

01-24-2004, 03:23 AM

First of all, Id like to say that though I've had quite a lot of complaints regarding the movies' inconsistency with the books (so sue me! I'm a real nitpicker), I still quite liked these film adaptations.My wish list:I would have wanted to see Prince Imrahil, Ellrohir & Elladan, and Halbarad. And more of Éomer....And less of Arwen. I didn't really appreciate that whole "Arwen is dying" melodrama.I wish Gollum hadn't set Frodo up against Sam. What was that for anyway? And I hated the way they kept referring to lembas as lembas-bread.The way "Ëarendil" was pronounced. Or shall I say, mispronounced.Didn't King Elessar wear his circlet to battle? ... And yes, I'd like to not see that moth at the Black Gate.The Eye: It looked like something you would see in Nickelodeon. I would have liked to see a less-mean Theoden and a less-psycho-looking Denethor.A little bit more of Saruman and Grima.Just a little less of Legolas.And oh, look! Where did Frodo get those clothes after the orcs stripped him naked? And just to insert a bit about TTT: I wish Haldir didn't die that way. At the top of my list: Faramir. I think all of you know what I mean.[ 4:27 AM January 24, 2004: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]

Liriodendron

01-24-2004, 09:44 AM

That all sounds good..."Lembas-bread" I just ignored that, but now that you mention it! So, I'm in a mood...here goes a bit of nothing. I would have preferred Glorfindel at the Ford, (instead of Arwen) and the little meeting with Gildor in the Shire (instead of just the sighting of elves) scaring the black Riders off. An expansion of elvish involvement at the Council of Elrond would have been preferred. Everybody seems to enjoy the "power of good" associated with the elves, so I think a few more "heavy" elves and a bit of their history could have made the Council of Elrond more powerful and meaningful. I would have enjoyed Arwen and Aragorn's love story done with actual flashbacks to their meeting, and some more "love scenes" between them. I wanted to see Arwen more embroiled with the fate of the Fellowship because of her strong young love for Aragorn. A love story would have gone much farther (with me) than the "Arwen tied to the rings fate" route. All the free people of Middle Earth were tied to the rings fate. Narsil/Anduril should have been given to Aragorn at the Council of Elrond. Way less Helms Deep battle, no elves there, and more palantir stuff at Orthanc. The Smeagol/ Deagol story should have been in the second film, in the natural spot, when Frodo first calls Gollum Smeagol. Saruman's defeat should have been dealt with more in this film. RotK should have opened with Aragorn looking into the palantir, and wrenching it away from Sauron's will. Frodo and Sam should have not been lumped in with Merry and Pippen in the ending when recognition was given. The Standard should have been used during the ship scene.....well, I need to see the extended edition before I ramble about RoTK. I think a concise Scouring of the Shire could have been tucked in and would have been very powerful, especially if Galadriel's mirror scenes had been expanded upon during palantir sessions at Orthanc in TTT.Many of the things done in the movies were GREAT! I'm being harassed to get off of the computer now though....can't go on. [ 10:47 AM January 24, 2004: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

Theron Bugtussle

01-27-2004, 12:15 PM

Very nice article on Frodo's mercy to Saruman, mark12_30. Thanks for the link.I am reading JRR Tolkien's letters at the moment for the first time. Very enlightening. I find much in there that backs up my low opinion of PJ's movie treatment of the meat of the book. ("The meat" is not battles.)

Neferchoirwen

01-27-2004, 10:13 PM

I really don't care about whether or not the movies were true to the books. As a "dark fan" (a Tolkien books freak who was born into fandom via the movies), I just take the interpretation as a "from one fan to another" thing. But I have one complaint, though:The ships look like yachts. They ought to be HUGE, GIGANTIC things with masts and all that. And all we have is a yacht.Please. Take the yachts out and give me SHIPS! Cirdan builds better!

hobbit punk

01-29-2004, 08:50 PM

Ok, did anyone else find all the flashbacks annoying? Ok, so maybe its been a long time. Maybe people can't remember everything that happened. But flashing back to the Smeagol/Deagol scene? I mean I hope we can give the non-book audiences a bit more credit than that. I also found that the Smeagol/Deagol scene kind of upset the storyline...it felt like it was out of place and could've been cut. I agree that it should've been put in when Frodo first says Gollum's name. I also didn't like that Eomer never seemed to realize his uncle was dead and how they have a close up of the Witch King saying he will break the wizard and then they never meet. I sorely missed the mouth of Sauron and I hated the eye as a lighthouse or whatever..it just didn't seem threatening. The story was weak and I just didn't get into it. The parts that made me feel emotion in the book, well they all do but great emotion, just didn't do it for me in the movie. Ex. Pelennor Fields, Gray Havens. Denethor was a mess and Gandalf acted very below himself to whack Denethor with his staff. I also found that Faramir just magically heals. Since there were no houses of healing, he just seems to magically be cured! Saruman was a big one and it seems nieve for Gandalf to be like oh leave him be, hes got no power now. And we never got to say goodbye to Treebeard.. ...they just kind of said hi and bye...I love Treebeard. All in all I agree with what everyone mentioned beforehand.[ 7:50 PM February 01, 2004: Message edited by: hobbit punk ]

The Only Real Estel

01-31-2004, 01:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Ok, did anyone else find all the flashbacks annoying? Ok, so maybe its been a long time. Maybe people can't remember everything that happened. But flashing back to the Smeagol/Deagol scene? I mean I hope we can give the non-book audiences a bit more credit than that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I really doubt that PJ & co. flashed back to the Smeagol/Deagol scene to remind people how the Ring was re-found. I think he did it for a few reasons, but one main one:* It not only gave us a great understanding for Gollum's character & a little more background on him, it also got the audience a glimpse of more of the dark side of Gollum, to ensure that his death wouldn't be a sniffing scene. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I also found that the Smeagol/Deagol scene king (kind*) of upset the storyline...it felt like it was out of place and could've been cut. I agree that it should've been put in when Frodo first says Gollum's name.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I really don't think that it would've worked to insert it in TTT after Frodo says 'Smeagol', because in the movies the remembrance of his older name on somewhat happier times is supposed to lighten Gollum up. If you have a flashback to him killing his friend, I hardly think that would produce his half-smile before the Nazgul screech. Perhaps if they could've gone with shots of him playing around, fishing, etc., show his face brighten, & then gone to the Smeagol/Deagol scene & have his face darken again just before the screech; but that would totally defeat the idea of a happier Gollum prior to the whole Faramir business that deals him a setback.

hobbit punk

01-31-2004, 07:59 PM

Good points. I really didn't enjoy the scene at all. But I would've prefered it as maybe a deleted scene on an extended edition. Also, another small annoyance, the fish that drags Deagol under the water and through it to the bottom is pretty small. A well-grown hobbit would've been pretty hefty and that fish was teeny! I could see it knocking him off balance and then him maybe falling in but not dragging him so far. PS: Thanks for the Christopher Lee quote. I was wondering if he would have attended the premiere of Return of the King. Your quote answered my question. [ 7:48 PM February 01, 2004: Message edited by: hobbit punk ][ 7:49 PM February 01, 2004: Message edited by: hobbit punk ]

Dininziliel

02-01-2004, 09:14 PM

I had reached the rather blissful point of not feeling tortured about the (imo) unnecessary changes in RotK, but then I saw it again last night for 6th time. (Obviously, I like it a lot.) It's going to be like FotR and TT--I'm always going to go back and forth between "I love that!" and then "Oh, whywhywhy did they choose to do that?" So, here's my newest list--(nothing has really changed since my first viewing). Aside from the obvious, most-mentioned scenes (Voice of Saruman, Mouth of Sauron, etc.), these are the little things I will call “Why Would Anyone Think Their Idea Better Than Tolkien’s When Tolkien’s Would Have Worked Beautifully Under Cinematic Circumstances!”<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>I agree w/Diamond18--Shelob's Lair needed to be pitch black but visible. Merry and Pippin to be noticeably taller than Frodo and Sam. (And all the other hobbits in the Shire!)<LI>Denethor needs his palantir in order to be a credible character.<LI>Use the phrase, “Paths of the Dead” <LI>The Army of the Dead look like scrubbing bubbles. And, why should anyone else bother to risk their lives when the Dead are on the job?<LI>What happened to the despair upon seeing the Corsair ships that coincides with Eomer’s berserker grief/rage at the sight of Theoden & Eowyn?<LI>86 the derivative character/costume design: Gothmog as Elephant Man, Gothmog’s skull-hatted lieutenant (did anyone else think Cat-in-the-Hat?), and the Mad Max Thunderdome mumakil riders.<LI>Change Gollum jumping on top of invisible Frodo at Doom to staying on the ground in a toe-to-toe struggle (less silly looking)<LI>More of the lines from the book. Money simply can’t buy dialogue & description like that.<LI>Shelob looking like she’d been on Slim-Orc diet. She needed to be much baggier and grosser. AND, what happened to that marvelous moment when she reared up above an exhausted Sam who had just enough time & strength to point Sting upwards so she could impale herself upon it? <LI>Angry Oathbreaker: "When The One went into the fire, the camera angle should have switched to Gandalf's view, and they see "a shadow rising above the mountains, lightning crowned and malevolent but shortly blown away by the wind. THEN Barad-dur falls and the ground splits etc." Thank you! You are the only other person besides myself that seems to have noticed this!<LI>Kaiserin: "The Eye: It looked like something you would see in Nickelodeon." Oh, well said!</UL><LI>Oh, I might as well add that I hope the EE has no out-of-Age phrases/idioms ("Meat . . . menu" dwarf tossing references, snow-boarding, etc.)

The Only Real Estel

02-02-2004, 03:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> agree w/Diamond18--Shelob's Lair needed to be pitch black but visible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, but how was PJ to accomplish that!? I thought he did a pretty good job because it has to be dark but you still have to be able to see Frodo enough :/.

Mithisilien

02-03-2004, 04:01 PM

I know most of these have been said, but here it goes anywayAragorn's coronation: I reeeeeally loved the way it was done in the books, very touching and respectful. It was almost rushed in the movieAragorn's arrival at the pellenor fields: They should have shown the flags being unfurled- it was really dramatic and Aragorn's arrival was supposed to inspire everyone, but they might not have known he even got there for a while.Faramir/Eowyn: I was looking foreward to seeing their relationship develop, and they left it out Theoden/Merry: Did they even say anything to each other??? That was kind of a big mess-upMerry and Pippin- I agree they should have been noticably taller, but then only the people who got the TTT EE would know what's going on and that's not very fair, is it?Sam/Rosie- Why weren't they at Bag-End?!?! Arr. At least they used (almost) the right lines, even though it should have been at night. And it would have been nice to see the hobbits walking home together from the Grey Havens too. But the movie was so good anyway.....I like it a lot the way it is