Could (Should) the Simarillion become a film?

[Kushluk]

I have decided to introduce this topic so I might gather some ideas for a friend of mine.<BR>He has been directing movies for a long time, but just recently he has become aquainted with the Lord of the Rings movies. He loves them and but he says when they're over he won't be very happy. So the last came into theatres last Wednesday and he's already seen it THREE TIMES! He says he wants to see the Simarillion on film yet no wants to support his idea. I asked him how; the Simarillion is like 50 different stories into one book, a film does need a main character you know.<BR> Just this morning I was thinking about his idea when I thought, who do you read about throughout the Simarillion and then notice in The Lord of the Rings? I've got it!<BR>Galadriel! You may think me crazy but a whole year of brainstorming and then a sudden burst of ideas, I can hardly stand being so enthusiastic about it! Okay, so in the beginning, if you've ever read the book, Galadriel comes in as an elven child, but as the history goes on of Beleriand and Middle-Earth she grows up and is right backstage to every story!<BR> "Now, there are three things you MUST have in a movie," said my friend,"A main character, a plot, and conflicts."<BR>We have the main character, we now need a plot. The plot is probably the easiest to find; the Noldar elves must win back the love of the Valar and move back to Valinor, their old home. Okay, but what is a conflict? <BR>"A conflict is the problem that is preventing the main character from doing something, or making something hard for a character to do," he said."It can be an internal or external conflict. A good movie with emotion has an main internal conflict within the main character; the way the character responds to it shows their true personality. A good movie also has a main force that opposes the character or characters in a physical and more obvious may creating a main external conflict. Other minor external conflicts should show up to keep the movie action filled and keeping the viewer interested."<BR>--------------------------------------------<BR>So it's your turn now. Comment on our idea, state some ideas (i need as many ideas as you can give me). If you don't like what we have so far, say it! I want this to be what the people love, not what amuses the actors or the judges. Do you even think there should be the Simarillion on film? <BR> UNDER ALL CAUSES PLEASE BE PATIENT. Things like this take months, and even years sometimes just to brainstorm and know exactly what to do (or if your even going to do it). <BR>--------------------------------------------<BR>I will determine if to post my email address or not later, depending on how people comment on the topic.<P>HAVE FUN!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Please repost this in the movies forum (if there isn't already one like it) and delete the one you have here and in the Silmarillion project forum.<P>Cami, Shire Mod

[Mithadan]

Moving this thread to the Movies forum.

[Mithadan]

It is extremely unlikely that The Silmarillion will be made into a movie anytime soon. Tolkien sold the film rights to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings during his lifetime. The Silmarillion was not published at the time the rights were sold. It was published in 1977 after JRRT's death. His estate owns the rights to The Silmarillion and Christopher Tolkien, who is the executor of the Estate, is notoriously anti-movie. He is not likely to sell the rights to The Silmarillion.

[Kushluk]

OK, so thanks for the info. about the movie right. I'd hate to turn my friends idea down, but I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can clear that up with the MC System before my friend ends up desparing. I don't quite think he will be able to do it anymore, but I will try to support him and give him credit for trying.------(SIGH!)

[Jjudvven]

It would make an interesting movie, but there are so many characters that it would make it almost impossible to turn it into an understandable movie. I do like your idea of Galadrial though. Unfortunately, I don't think that there is anyone with enough ambition to take on the project of making a movie out of that book.

[Finwe]

I think that The Silmarillion would make a much better TV series or miniseries. There are way too many sub-plots and characters for it to be made into a movie, and still stay faithful to the book. The way that the book is set up, each chapter, or each couple of chapters, could be made into an episode in a TV series. I think that would probably work out better.

[Vardadurwen]

It would be an interesting project, but like all of you have said, there are too many stories to tell; not to mention the fact that it is severely long. It would be like making the Bible into a movie. Well, not quite, but the Silmarillion is essentially the Bible of Middle-Earth and so to try and document all of that into a film that would be under...ten hours would most likely be a faint hope.

[doug*platypus]

Oh no! Not the TV Series idea again! Sorry, but I just think it's a bit of an inferior medium compared to the silver screen. Maybe a good compromise would be to release about 6 movies straight to DVD.<P>Kushluk, don't give up hope at all! I'm sure that if we had this discussion 15 years ago about <I>The Lord of the Rings</I> the comments would be the same:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Cost too much.<LI>Requires more e.g. a love story.<LI>Fans will not condone changes.<LI>Technology not available.<LI>Casting impossible.</UL>If there's one thing Peter Jackson has shown us, it's that these are not insurmountable odds for someone of talent and vision. He may not have produced the perfect version (which would be impossible as you can't keep <I>everyone</I> happy), but he showed what is possible.<P>The topic has been discussed <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001728" TARGET=_blank>here as well</A> if you are interested. Remember to check for duplicate threads before posting a new topic. Not surprisingly, this one has popped up before (at least half a dozen times).<P>I think that the first step would have to be sketching out a very rough storyboard. Perhaps start by deciding which scenes should go in which order. Cutting between storylines was a major problem for TTT and ROTK, and this needs to be addressed near the start I think. Don't stop posting, I'm sure between us and everyone else (i.e. the non-doubters) we have a lot of great ideas about how to make this possible. It would be great to be sitting in a theatre one day and see the words <B>The Silmarillion</B> come up on the screen!

[Arcuwen]

I think you really have a great idea going here, especially with Galadriel. It might be hard to understand the movie without reading the book first though, so it might not be as successful as the LOTR trilogy. If you can get a team of hard working individuals together who really know the Sil, then I say go for it! One more thought: Unless you want people sitting in the theater for weeks, you'll need to cut some things. What to cut will be the hard part, because everyone has a different opinion of what should or shouldn't be left in.

[Thrackamazog]

I would love to see the Simarillion on film! But definitely not as a T.V. show. I think that if you cut the book into three or four parts or even into the First and Second Ages you should be able to cover the whole thing. But before anything happens you have to clear everthing up with that MC thing (whatever it is) so its legal to make it. You wouldn't want to make a good movie and ind out you can't show it because the book doesn't have a film right.

[Firefoot]

I think that the Sil as a movie would be incredibly confusing...there are too many characters and subplots. I was confused the first time I read the book as to who was who, who was related to who, and who was an elf or man. It would be overwhelming, I think. The idea of a main character is difficult too, Galadriel is one idea, I guess, but it didn't seem to me that she had a strong enough part throughout the book. I suppose you could enlarge the part for a movie though.<P>If you were really determined you could probably make the Sil a movie but you would have to cut so much to make it so that it wasn't confusing that I think it would probably end up as a disappointment to the book.<p>[ 11:15 AM December 23, 2003: Message edited by: Firefoot ]

[HCIsland]

I agree that the Silmarillian is far too complex to make into a movie. I don't know about others, but when I read it I have to keep one finger in the index (which, thank God, is very good). I couldn't imagine how you could make the thing into a movie, or even a series of movies.<P>The other thing about the Silmarillian is that it is so dark. Most of the chapters end on such a downer that I find it hard to see how you could sustain a reasonable enough audience to make the project economically feasible.<P>What I could see working is to translate just one chapter into a film and my chapter of choice would be Beren and Luthien. You have your two central characters, your love story and your conflict wrapped up in one package. Certainly some backstory is required but is it really any more than the back story required for Lord of the Rings? The other thing that's nice is that Beren's journey brings him to some key locations and characters of the First Age, including Sauron and Morgoth himself. And, he captures a Silmaril, so you might be able to even justify calling the film The Simarillion, though admittedly that is somewhat misleading.<P>Besides, I just love the bit when Beren tells Thingol that his hand now holds a Silmaril. I line worthy of Arnie himself. <P>Another possibility would be to flesh out one of the multitude of great stories that can be found in appendix A of Lord of the Rings. A story that I've always found intriguing is that of Eldacar and the Kin-strife.<P>H.C.<p>[ 12:17 PM December 23, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Rider of Rohan]

I agree HC. Beren and Luthien is the best choice. If the Sil is going to succeed as a movie you would have to capitolize on that story. It would provide a link to LOTR for the non-reading audience (Sauron) I think it would be great. <BR>If you had to make the whole blessed thing you would have to break it down into a series of movies (maybe film them all at once for posterity) but I think it would fall short of our expectations. The creation of Arda is a beautiful story but I fear that its transition to film would be cut entirely or relegated to 5 minutes of intro. <BR>On a positive note I think that once you got into the story (Nargothrond, Gondolin, War of Wrath, Earendil) it would be entertaining for both the reading and non-reading audiences

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

I think to make the Sil into a movie you would have to do a lot of improvising as far as dialogue. Most of the Sil is narraration and not dialogue. We know that Tolkien fans seem to hate that, judging by what people say about improvising in LOTR by PJ.

[Jjudvven]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think to make the Sil into a movie you would have to do a lot of improvising as far as dialogue. Most of the Sil is narraration and not dialogue. We know that Tolkien fans seem to hate that, judging by what people say about improvising in LOTR by PJ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. I think that, although if done correctly, the Sil could make an excellent movie or TV series, it would be too diffictult to write and acceptable scipt for it. Some people would be pleased, many people would be offended, because there is no way to do it like it is in the book. There's just not enough dialogue in there. You'd have to improvise way too much in order to flesh it out enough. Another way you could do it would be in a documentary form, with a narrator. Although I fear that would be far to boring for most people. <P>It would also be nice to take certain stories that the Sil goes into great detail about, such as the tale of Beren and Luthien, and turning that into a 2 hr theatrical production. It would make a good love story, with a good amount of action for action fans, but it would take a very good director.<P>There are other stories in there that could be interesting, as was suggested above about Galadriel. Feanor would also make an interesting movie. <P>Sadly, I don't think any of this will happen for a long time, so we'll just have to be content with the books.

[Lathriel]

AS soon as I saw this topic I thought to myself "Beren and Luthien would be a good story" but i see that other people have already thought about that. However if there ever is a really crazy movie director who wants to do the Silmarillion I would advice him to stick with the story of Beren and Luthien.

[Morquesse]

What I would do, is do a series of movies, JUST about the Simarils. No Creation of Arda, no Rings of Power and the Third Age, no nothing but about the Simarils. That way, you could go down the generations and about the jewels (kind of like <I>Taken</I>) so you have this one conflict throughout. And you could pick one protagonist per movie, without having to pick just one for the length of the book.<BR>And of course, if you call it the 'Silmarillion' you have the problem of pronunciation. "Mommy, how do you say Seel--Sell--Seelmurlshion?" "Hey Dude, how do they say that new flick's name? Why can't they call it "Before Lord of thuh Rings?" "Dad, what's uh "Seemeerilleeon?" "I don't know son, maybe it's a new species they found."<BR>You get my point. <BR>See you later!<BR>~M

[Gorwingel]

The only way the Sil could be done as a TV series is if they did it on HBO (or the BBC maybe) because they would be the only networks who would put enough money into it to make it worthwhile (and they also have a lot of experience doing large, high budget, mini-series). But I would highly doubt it.<P>Even though I love the book, I still don't think it would make a good series. LOTR was hard to get made, and the Sil would be even harder.<P>I still think though that the tale of Beren and Luthien would make a good film. But it would take a very long prologue to make normal non-book people understand the entire story.

[aleesa]

As much as I'd love to see Beren and Luthien or the tale of Turin Turambar on screen, I think it would be pretty hard to turn the Sil into a movie. Tv series... maybe... but there's so many characters and stories that it might be confusing to people who haven't read the book. Actually, there are a handful of people i know who did not like the Sil and thought it was boring because of the many characters. But the idea of using Galadriel as the main character and telling her side of the story might not be that bad.

[Tintalle]

Hmmm, too many storylines and plots ... so I guess it's impossible. However if they are to pick A story from it, that is theoretically possible. I'd love to see the Beren and Luthien story or Turin Turimbar's. (Interesting info I wanna share, there's this school in my place who actually did a play of "The Lay Leithian" ... I think they did a cool job, so I guess if Christopher Tolkien will allow it, it can be done )<p>[ 6:22 AM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: Tintalle ]

[TheBladeThatWasBroken]

I recall from an interview with PJ and other people and they said that it's too difficult to adapt The Silmarillion, because it's like "trying to adapt a history textbook"<P>*shrugs*<P>I'd like to see a Silmarillion movie though

[Evisse the Blue]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And of course, if you call it the 'Silmarillion' you have the problem of pronunciation. "Mommy, how do you say Seel--Sell--Seelmurlshion?" "Hey Dude, how do they say that new flick's name? Why can't they call it "Before Lord of thuh Rings?" "Dad, what's uh "Seemeerilleeon?" "I don't know son, maybe it's a new species they found."<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh s***! Is this really the case?? <P>I think it's too bad Silmarillion won't be made into a movie anytime soon; I think it's got the potential for a big hit. Theoretically speaking I would love Feanor's story told in detail, and maybe the Silmarils should be the main characters - sort of like the Ring was in these movies; and all the other stories revolving around their fate, and being connected by it. And yes, better a 6-hour movie than a TV series.

[doug*platypus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I was confused the first time I read the book as to who was who, who was related to who, and who was an elf or man. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If done properly, a movie would eliminate a lot of this confusion. Sure, it may be tricky to tell the difference between Fingon and Fingolfin the first time you read the book, but in a movie they would be played by different actors. A picture tells a thousand words, and a moving picture about 3,000,000 or more. Armour, costumes and heraldic devices would all help to distinguish one house from another. And of course Elves, Hobbits and Vulcans all have pointy ears, which is what makes them so different from Men.

[Finwe]

A much better idea would probably be to make the story of Fëanor into a movie. True, it's a very dark story, but it's got a love story, brothers fighting, civil wars, wars, long journeys, and dramatic deaths. What more could an audience want?

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> A much better idea would probably be to make the story of Fëanor into a movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bit of a dark ending, though. And film audiences (especially American film audiences) apparently don't like dark endings. That's why the ending to <I>Blade Runner</I> had to be re-shot.

[Tar-Alcarin]

With the tale of Turin, you need to include in there the tale of his dad first of all, to understand why that curse was put upon him in the first place. I think that American viewers(not to diss my own people) would object to Turin falling in love with his sister. But after turing kills himself, Hurin would need to reapper and end with a narration of Thingol.

[Kalimac]

Saucepan Man - tell you what, they can treat Feanor like "Brazil" - one dark cut which becomes a cult film, then one Love Conquers All version which is sliced to ribbons for television viewing, which is disowned by the director, and becomes an unintentional comedy classic. <P>Tar-Alcarin - I doubt that Europeans are fundamentally more comfortable about the idea of sleeping with one's sister than Americans are. Considering the circumstances, I'd say Americans would be about as comfortable as anyone is - that is, about the same comfort level exhibited by watching the Oedipus cycle. Now, if they were intentionally committing incest, that would be pretty off-putting for Americans, but I'm guessing that would be true of other nationalities as well. <P>I guess my main objection the idea of a Silmarillion film is that it would involve inventing huge amounts of dialogue; I mean, there is dialogue in it, but mostly at the very high points of the story and heavily stylized. LOTR was much, much more conversational and even there the filmmakers had to come up with some filler, and they did not always do a bang-up job of it. And the lack of hobbits as intermediaries between us and the really foreign world of ME could be awkward.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> one Love Conquers All version which is sliced to ribbons for television viewing, which is disowned by the director, and becomes an unintentional comedy classic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>They did that to "Brazil"? Shame on them. I must make sure to avoid it.<P>I can't see the Silm as a whole being brought to the screen. Too many characters, too many plots. And most of the individual tales are just too dark for mass film audiences. My personal favourite is the tale of Turin Turambar, but that is certainly too dark, incest or no incest.<P>The only tale with any prospect of making anything other than a (low budget) cult film is, as others have said, that of Luthien and Beren. Perhaps they could get Hugo Weaving to play Thingol, as that was essentially his character in the LotR films.

[Kalimac]

Saucepan Man, alas, they did indeed slice "Brazil" for television. Lost a grand total of about an HOUR of footage, too - the cut is completely incomprehensible if you haven't seen the real version. Informally and derogatorily known as the Love Conquers All version, because ... well, you can guess why.<P>Oh yes, Tolkien! . Actually, I'm with you on Turin Turambar - that's always been the story that I turn to if I'm not sure what in the Silmarillion to read. Unfortunately, the plot being what it is, I can't see it getting anything other than the Small Film Opening In Three Arthouse Theatres Nationwide treatment. And while I'd loyally hike out to see that, there still remains the filler problem. The end is fantastically done in terms of dialogue, but there would be an awful lot of details that the filmmakers would have to fill in on their own if they wanted to get a decent movie out of it.<P>Beren and Luthien would work - there's certainly enough traveling and dramatic tension and doomed love affair-ness. Does this mean Liv Tyler would have to play Luthien, though? After all, Arwen is supposed to be pretty much her image...not sure how I feel about that...

[Olorin_TLA]

Ok...for several days I've held off (due to, frankly, disgust) this subject, but why the hell is anything "TOO dark"?!?! Unless everyone but me undergoes some cretinous transofrmation the moment they enter a cinema, you constrain your options by aiming for people with the intelliegence, emotional capacity and depth of a piece of slime.

[Kalimac]

Olorin, we're not saying that it wouldn't make a good movie, nor are we implying that moviegoers are idiots. The main idea behind the "too dark" idea (at least for me) is that whenever a studio makes a movie, they usually want at least some reasonable shot of recouping their money, and stories along the lines of Turin Turambar tend to be big risks. You might make a quirky, weird movie which will strike a nerve and everyone will love it despite its unrelieved darkness - "The Crying Game" and "Breaking the Waves" certainly were no comedyfests, and they got great reviews and brought in a good audience. (Albeit the second one was an arthouse flick). Or more likely it'll get buried; chain theatres will be unwilling to commit at least two weeks' worth of theatre space to a movie that will probably not sell many tickets.<P>Why would it be a hard sell? Partly because in any project involving the Silmarillion you'd be catering to a very narrow core audience - although now that LOTR is made, you could probably advertise it as "By the same author who brought you Lord of the Rings" - that is, if you weren't afraid of Tolkien's vengeful ghost visiting you one night. But the risk is still great that your main draw will be Tolkien fanatics who have read the Silmarillion. Not even every Tolkien fan has made it through that book, and the number of people who are NOT Tolkien fans and have read the book as a crossover - well, I'm willing to bet that you could count them on one hand. It's not that the studios would object to attracting Tolkien fans, what they'd object to is the fact that this project would be unlikely to attract anyone *besides* people like us. And they are in a business, a very competitive one. <P>So those are problems with the Silmarillion generally, though I think they could be overcome if approached well. The story of Beren and Luthien, if it's pushed cleverly enough, would have the possibility of attracting people who normally like other genres. You can sell it as fantasy, adventure, action, sappy love story, tragedy, girl power (Luthien defies Thingol!) all sorts of things. It would still be an uphill climb, but you could do it. Turin, unfortunately, has none of those aspects (at first glance, I mean - short reviews, and so forth) except for tragedy. That is, the tragedy will be by far the most vivid thing in peoples' memories afterwards. The number of pure tragedy junkies out there is not large. Tragic love story might do it, but Turin would not do too well in that department unless the filmmakers decided to pull off a moment straight out of "Der Blonde Eckbert" and hide Turin and Nienor's sibling status from the audience until the very end. This would probably lead to bad word-of-mouth - if you go to see a tragic love story, and it turns out that it involves the putative hero accidentally sleeping with his sister, you'll probably feel that you've been sold a bill of goods no matter how well it was done. Like it or not, most peoples' initial reaction to that sort of thing is not "How tragic!" but "EEEWW!" Yes, they'll probably revise their opinions later, but they're not going to forget that first impression.<P>Basically, my take on it is that if Oedipus Rex (one of my favourite plays) hasn't been able to make it on the silver screen, there's no way Turin can do it. With the double handicap of the Silmarillion Factor plus the Incest Factor - no. <P>Sorry, didn't mean to be so longwinded. I'm not trying to be rude or patronizing or anything; I certainly think that the average moviegoer is far more intelligent than the studios generally give him credit for, but on the other hand I also recognize that the average moviegoer is probably not going to have my specific tastes - their intelligence can run in other directions. They would have to be sold on this movie as hard as anyone would be.<p>[ 10:50 PM December 28, 2003: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> but why the hell is anything "TOO dark"?!?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My point was based on the <I>Blade Runner</I> experience. The original version (later released as the Director's Cut) had a very dark ending. Sample screenings suggested that audiences disliked the sad ending, and so they re-filmed it with a happy ending to ensure "bums on seats" (although, in my view, the "Director's Cut" is much better).<P>Kalimac's post sums it all up for me. It would be nigh on impossible to get investors to shell out enough money to allow a film based on most of the tales in the Silm to be made properly. Low budget works for some films (Kalimac's mention of <I>The Crying Game</I> is an excellent example), but it would not allow for the tales of the Silm to be brought to the screen in a manner that would do them justice. I shudder to think what a low budget Glaurung would look like. <P>When it comes down to it, the big studios just ain't gonna take the risk, more's the pity.

[Thrackamazog]

To me this is turning out to be an Ancient Fantasy "Star Wars". Just think about it; three movies were made and some fanatic who loved the trilogy decides to film the past history of some of the characters in the movies. What if you put "Star Wars" I, II, & III together? It would probably turn out as complicating as the Simarillion. Just act as if the Simarillion is more than one book, make a few movies, and it should turn out alright. Just make sure you show some of the same characters in all the movies so the audience doesn't think it's the beginning to a whole new story line.

[Finwe]

I guess that the only two possibilities left to us are:<P><BR>1) Make the Beren and Luthien story into a movie, since it already has all the things that "modern" audiences "love."<P><BR>2) Make the Fëanor story into a movie, but with a new perspective. Make it a bit of a "look what happens when you do this" sort of movie. Sometimes, if the right person is doing it, you can really pull it off.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What if you put "Star Wars" I, II, & III together? It would probably turn out as complicating as the Simarillion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm sorry, but it's not even close.<P>H.C.

[Kalimac]

Thanks, Saucepan Man .<P>And Thrackamazog, I have to respectfully disagree re Star Wars. If you cut away the window dressing, the Star Wars prequels have only a handful of really meaningful characters; Palpatine, Dooku (I guess), Anakin, Padme, Obi-Wan and the droids. (I guess Jar Jar would have to count as meaningful too, considering that whole tricked-by-Palpatine thing, though it kills me to say this). Also it takes place within a relatively brief span of time, where the Silmarillion does not.<p>[ 5:49 PM December 29, 2003: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Lady Alasse]

I really liked the Idea of several movies<P>I also liked the history of the silmarils. You could start with their making which is before the elves leave for middle earth ... You'd have to make it a small series. Ungoliant would make a good villan and you would also have Morgoth introduced their. Then the fight when the elves leave middle-earth to find the silmarils... there'd be Beren and Luthien... Earendil takes the silmaril back (This one should definetly be made into a movie. It's one of my Favorites) and then the two elves steal the other silmarils. maybe somehow link Earendil and those two. I love how one is in the Sky one in the Earth and one in the Water!<P>My ideas are not very well connected tonight sorry. I'm recovering from the flu and am on some really nasty antibiotics. I'm having a very difficult time rembering all the names and I don't own a copy of the Silmarillion.(I borrow it from my library alot.) I hope this helps a little

[aleesa]

I would agree with the Saucepan Man. It would be quite hard to find investors that would fork out a lot of money to make the Sil like New Line did for Lotr. If, for instance any investors would agree with the suggestions to make several movies for the Sil, it would cost a lot of money to produce the same effects similar to LotR. I mean, audience would complain if the Sil didn't live to the same standards as LotR. They wouldn't want simple (low budget) sfx, would they? Like the Saucepan Man said, it would not do the Sil justice. <BR>The investors would of course, expect a high return and that is not easy to promise since it would depend on the interest people still have after LotR. As in the case of Star Wars: Episode 4, 5 & 6, people love it & yet Episode 1 & 2 didn't actually achieve or equal the same success. <BR>Sorry, if you don't understand what I'm saying. Still recovering from migraine...

[Faye Took]

I think that the Silmarillion would indeed be a challange to make. I think that if they were to make a Silmarillion movie it would be hard to follow along and would not be only one movie. I think that if they were to make one, they should take some of the main stories and make them into the film, such as Beren and Luthien perhaps?<P>Just an Idea.

[Olorin_TLA]

Conisder the fact that LotR were massive successes, now New Line want to get Hobbit rights badly...I think execs, if it was pitched right, might lap up the opportunity for Silm; if only for "cash cow" (YURGHCH!!!) reasons.

[Gil-numen]

Unless you read the Silm, the movie would probably confuse you to insanity. Many people I know can't stand the book so what would make the movie so appealing ?<P>--------------------------------<BR>"Show it to me"<BR>Thingol to Beren

[Olorin_TLA]

I'm sorry, but people said that about the LotR films.<P>If the script confuses people, it'd be the script-writer's fault.

[Evisse the Blue]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Make the Fëanor story into a movie, but with a new perspective. Make it a bit of a "look what happens when you do this" sort of movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That would totally ruin it for me. I have this idea about Feanor as a flawless yet charismatic individual whose genius makes up for his arrogance and mistakes. But I can see how one might take this idea and turn it into a cliche, like the 'misunderstood rebel, live fast die young, etc'.<P>As for the average intelligence of moviegoers: I've come to the conclusion that there are people who are very intelligent and of good taste, but who, when in front of the tv or the big screen, aquire the attention span and the mood of a pre-teen. What they watch has, therefore, to be as plain as possible and 'yay -fun!' This is not to say that they're stupid -- it's just that they seem to regard movies and shows as 'the lowest form of entertainment'; they turn to them when they're too tired or too fed up to do anything else and need something as easy-going as possible to help them unwind and capture their attention for that 2 and a half hours. Plus, there are, of course, people who haven't picked up a book since they left college, and you can imagine what kind of movies <I>they</I>prefer.<p>[ 7:54 PM January 01, 2004: Message edited by: Evisse the Blue ]

[Olorin_TLA]

Well, when all else fails...ignore the existence of everyone but yourself when thinkignof movie-intellect!<P>If people can be conditioned to accept brainless cesspools (see, pun!) for entertainment, they can get used to brain-stuff!<P>Besides, lots of mart films do well. There just aren't as many made.

[nobody]

I think Narn i Chin Húrin would be easier to make than Beren & Lúthien because in the Unfinished Tales version, it has a lot of detail and considerably more dialogue than any of the tales in the Silmarillion. I don't see what's wrong with 'dark' movies- don't people want something other than the predictable ending of the typical fantasy movie, with the hero coming up with some cunning plot to rescue the damsel in distress?<p>[ 3:07 PM January 03, 2004: Message edited by: nobody ]

[Finwe]

Evisse, I have nothing whatsoever against Fëanor. I think he's the greatest Elf ever, though that's probably what got my character into trouble! I was just coming up with different ways of "spicing up" the story.<P>*runs off and beats herself because she's starting to sound like PJ*

[Evisse the Blue]

'S okay, Finwe. Just trying to keep the ball rolling; you know brainstorming and such. After all, we got a movie to make, right people??

[Kushluk]

Okay, so the picture for the Simarillion is almost gone, but what of certain stories inside the Simarillion that could be made into individual movies? It's an okay idea. I really liked the idea some had of Beren and Luthien. Maybe, just maybe, the film ados. will allow a revised connection for every story (meaning a series of 7 or 8 movies, possibly?). No worries! Nothing is written in stone yet! There is still a lot of time for ideas (and criticism). Keep it up!

[Lobelia]

Well, one of the students at my high school has been coming to my library to do her research for a Silmarillion movie she wants to do as her Media Studies project. I don't know if she intends to do it as an animation or persuade her friends to get into costume and make-up as one boy did last year for his movie, and no one will ever see it but her teacher and a few friends and maybe me but I have seen the storyboard and it looks good. She is just going to do the theft of the Silmarils.

[zb]

After listening to a recording of Christopher Tolkien reading "of Beren and Luthien" today, I'd say there's definite movie potential. <P>Unfortunately, there's also a lot of potential for cringeworthiness of the worse sort (imagine if Disney got their hands on a story which involves a large talking hound!), but that's the way these things go.<P>I'd be much more inclined to support an arthouse B&L, I guess.

[SKRi Dren]

You can't make Galadriel the main character of the Silmarillion, because although she is mentioned she plays no major role in *any* of the events in any of the myths, and she's not even involved in the vast majority of them. There are about twenty other characters with much bigger parts to play. It would be like making Elrond's sons (Elrohir and Elladan) the main characters of the Lord of the Rings. How big a rewrite would THAT take?

[Firefoot]

I can think of two more things that could prove difficult in the making of the Sil into a movie.<P>One is that the book takes place over the course of 500+ years. Moviemakers could try to compress that but it would still take place over an extremely long time. Even if you made it into several movies it would still be a long time.<P>The other is that even if you decided to make it into several movies and started, say, with Feanor, you would still have to come up with a kind of prologue explaining Valinor, the Valar, the Maia, etc. I have had several people ask me what Sauron is - people who have read the book even!- and by the time I say Maia, they are lost. Otherwise you end up with questions about why leaving Valinor and disobeying the Valar was such a big deal.<P>As for adding on to things that have already been said, there have been thoughts that you would need at least one main character. BUT can anyone give a MAIN character that stays alive throughout the duration of the book? There are a couple of smaller characters, or characters that do big things but very few: Galadriel has been mentioned, and some of Feanor's sons are living for most of the book, Turgon lives until almost the end, and there are several others. But these charaters have nothing to do with some of the important events: Beren and Luthien, Turin, etc. Almost all of the real main characters DIE!<P>I don't think the movie would sell to the average people. Most (all?) of the people who really enjoyed the movie would have probably have read the book. I don't think most Americans anyway would be too keen about Turin sleeping with his sister either... The thing is, most people like happy endings. Or if not happy, atleast the ending should be tied up and not be completely depressing. Some of the endings to the individual stories in the Sil are just that - depressing. Some of them are "happy" but it is hard to have a happy ending when almost all the main characters die. Can you imagine filming LotR if in the book Frodo, Sam, Merry, Gimli, and just for the heck of it, let's throw in Eomer, Eowyn, and Legolas, all died? You would have your king, and at least one of the Hobbits is still alive, but all the rest died. It wouldn't work. Maybe that is an extreme example, but basically that is how I see the Sil coming out if you tried to do the whole thing.<P>The long and the short of it is I don't think you could make the Sil a movie that does justice to the book. I know people said the same thing about LotR but I think that the Sil entails a lot more problems than LotR did.

[Lalaith]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't think most Americans anyway would be too keen about Turin sleeping with his sister either... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ahem...the rest of the world calling the United States...most of us aren't too crazy about incest either...and neither was Tolkien. <BR>The horror of what Turin had done drove him to suicide, remember.

[the phantom]

Here's another thread about this topic-<BR> <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002124" TARGET=_blank>http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002124</A> <P>and another-<BR> <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000953" TARGET=_blank>http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000953</A> <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That would totally ruin it for me. I have this idea about Feanor as a flawless yet charismatic individual whose genius makes up for his arrogance and mistakes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nice to know I'm not the only one who has an extreme love of Feanor (to the point that I attempt to whitewash him of any blame in discussions on the forum). <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think Narn i Chin Húrin would be easier to make...it has a lot of detail and considerably more dialogue <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed. I've always thought that story would be the best to make into a movie. Have a quick set up at the beginning, show the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (wouldn't that be awesome?), and then follow Turin through his life.<P>I'd also like to see a movie going from Feanor's birth till his death.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I can think of two more things that could prove difficult in the making of the Sil into a movie...One is that the book takes place over the course of 500+ years...BUT can anyone give a MAIN character that stays alive throughout the duration of the book? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your points are correct if we assume that the movie would cover the entire Sil. But if the movie was about what I suggested (following either Turin or Feanor's life) then your problems would be solved.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> when almost all the main characters die...It wouldn't work <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, in Romeo and Juliet you have the two main characters as well as a three or so of their co-stars dropping dead but yet the story turned out to be mildly successful, did it not? <P>It definitely could work despite the tragedy (with the right director, but then again you can say that about most things).

[VanimaEdhel]

I was actually discussing this with some of my Tolkien-fan friends at lunch the other day. I think that, as a whole, it would not be possible to put together "The Silmarillion: The Movie", but if you wanted to take select stories (one chapter at a time) and go in depth for one movie, it would work splendidly. One friend suggested a series of sorts, but I don't know whether they meant for cinema or for television. Unless it would be on one of the wealthier cable channels (HBO, for example), I don't think they could do the tales justice with the epic scale necessary for covering so much history. And doing a series in the movies covering all of the tales would be nearly as hard to contrive.<P>Basically, in my opinion, it would be very difficult to make a movie of "The Silmarillion", but if someone was truly dedicated to it (and was strictly canon), they could turn it into something interesting. However, since it is such a great work, I would not even do as much with it as Peter Jackson did with Lord of the Rings in the way of artistic liberties. I would be horrified if anyone changed anything.<P>At the moment, I think there's more chance of us seeing a version of <I>The Hobbit</I> sometime in the near future (within the next decade or so), as Peter Jackson has spoken of a mild interest, as has Ian McKellen in the way of returning as Gandalf.

[Mallorniel]

ABSOLUTELY!!! And I pray on bended knee that Peter Jackson will take up the project.<BR>Reading the Silmarillion, first thing after seeing FOTR really gave me a lot of insight into the LOTR. It may be after the fact, and it would have been better if people could have seen or read The Silmarillion first, but hey, look what they did after<BR>the Star Wars trilogy. They kept adding to it and the story went back to the beginning of how it all came to be.

[Kaiserin]

Hmm... I've got mixed feelings about a "Silm" movie ... of course there would be an initial excitement about seing the Silm on film, but then when I get to thinking of how it could be totally massacred and messed up - horrible would be an understatement (how about "blasphemy"? ) <P>Hard to imagine it all compresed into a few hours. There would have to be a lot of narration and explanation - and that would just ruin the whole reason for making it visual.<P>The Silmarillion is too "history-ish". To make this a success, there would have to be an awfully good director, a screenplay writer who can work miracles, an outstanding cast and a superhuman creative team ... and a budget that is several oliphaunts huge. <P>Galadriel would make an awkward "focal point" since most of the story doesn't have anything to do with her - not directly, anyway. At most, she can be the narrator with a third-person perspective.<P>I'd agree with the others' posts about Beren & Luthien's story and Turambar's tale as the most "film-worthy" parts of it. But if you take only parts of the Silmarillion, you might as well give it a whole different title. I mean, what's the point of calling it "The Silmarillion" if it's just going to be a very small fraction of the whole thing? But then, imagine a film called "Beren and Luthien" or "The Tale of Túrin Turambar" or "Fëanor"? - Those are really sucky titles.<P>If those big movie companies wouldn't invest in a Silm-film (and that seems likely), Tolkien fans would have to settle for viewing a low-budget one. (A low-budget Silm? Hardly possible!) Now <I>that</I> will be a waste of time and effort.<p>[ 5:08 AM January 15, 2004: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]