**RotK - Gothmog (Chief Orc at the Pelennor)

[thephantomcredits]

How did the Chief Org under The witch king perish?? Was he run over by the charge of rohan? Was he killed by the dead army??? Is this another EE wrap up???<p>[ 8:36 PM December 27, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Quite possibly. He was probably crushed by the Rohirrim.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I still wish that rock would have fallen on him for it was such a big let down when he side-stepped it. But killing him like that would have been too easy.

[Daisy Brambleburr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I still wish that rock would have fallen on him for it was such a big let down when he side-stepped it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That orc really really annoyed me. The stupid jerk had the nerve to step aside from that rock, I really wish I could have seen it squash him. I don't know why he irritated me so much, but his horrible face cept popping up and I was like 'just go awaaaay!'

[doug*platypus]

I think they should have let the fans onto the set to decide what to do with him. I think a lot of people really hate his Goonies costume, and I for one would love to get in there and burst his piñata with a few well-placed hits from a spiky club.<P>He'll probably be killed by one of our heroes in the extended edition. My guess is Aragorn.

[Arathyn]

I just hope SOMEONE kills him! I mean for goodness sakes, he's uglier than heck and he killed that one Gondorian who was Faramir's sergeant or something. He deserves to be killed in the Ex Ed.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> that one Gondorian who was Faramir's sergeant or something <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>'Twas Mablung.<P>And the name of the "Chief Orc" was Gothmog (played by Laurence Makaore, who also played Lurtz and the Witch-King), so there is some basis in the book for his presence (although whether Gothmog is one of the Nazgul, or an Orc, or something else, is never explained in the book).<P>Personally, I thought that it was a good call to characterise an Orcish leader for the Battle of Pelennor Fields. I only wish that they had done a better job with the make-up. In some shots it looked good, but mostly it looked rather amateurish (surprisingly, considering the high quality of the special effects otherwise in these films). And why did he have to look like the Elephant Man? (I have never seen the Goonies.)<P>Having only seen the film once (so far) I was myself wondering the other day whether there was a shot of his final demise. All I remember is him reluctantly retreating when the Riders of Rohan arrived. I agree that one of the heroes is likely to get the chance to finish him in the Extended Edition, hopefully Theoden.<P>Edit: There was no "official" thread for Gothmog, so I have re-named this topic as such.<p>[ 8:37 PM December 27, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Gorwingel]

Are you meaning the one who looked like the Elephant Man? (I had to watch that film in 9th grade health and I immediately thought of that character when I saw him)<P>Oh, I didn't like him at all, I really wanted him to die, and I too was mad when he stepped out of the target of that rock. I know he died in some way, and hopefully they will show us how he died in the EE, because I really want to find out.<p>[ 4:03 AM December 28, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]

[Olorin_TLA]

An example of why the screenwriters shouldn't make up characters...he sucked. Apart from sidestepping the rock. That was cool.

[Tar-Alcarin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Gothmog is one of the Nazgul, or an Orc, or something else, is never explained in the book). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>YEs something like that is in the book. We know he cant be one of the Naz becuase Khamul is the only one given. J and C tolkein say that the other nazgul are unkown and that Khamul is the obnly ever written about. So, by that deduction, Gothmog was and orc or uruk named after the lord of balrogs. Much like grond was named after the "Hammer of the Underworld"<P>But me, being jaded, cynical, evil, and filled with blood lust found him to be awsome.

[Finwe]

Perhaps he got killed by Eomer's severe bad breath, during one of said Horse-lord's famous screams?

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I thought he got run over by Aragorn and the green guys at Harlond. Am I remembering incorrectly?<P>-Lily

[HCIsland]

No, his death was never shown. I can only assume that they filmed one. You don't introduce a character like that without filming a death for him.<P>H.C.

[Everdawn]

That was the most disgusting thing in the whole trilogy! Yuk! I couldnt watch the parts with that guy in it, which of course means the actor did a fantastic job!

[Tar-Alcarin]

That was the same actor that played the witchking and the cheif Warg rider in TTT.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I thought that one orc that wore a skull for a hat was pretty disgusting too but we know for sure he died for he was the one that said, "Late as usual! Pirate scum! Come on you sea rats! Get off your ships!" Then the dead army came along....

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That was the same actor that played the witchking and the cheif Warg rider in TTT. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Laurence Makoare played Gothmog, in addition to the Witch-King, and Lurtz in FotR.<P>The "chief" Warg Rider (named Sharku) was played by Jed Brophy, who also appeared in Braindead, one of Jackson's very early films (a wonderful gore-fest), and also Heavenly Creatures.

[Tar-Alcarin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Laurence Makoare played Gothmog, in addition to the Witch-King, and Lurtz in FotR.<P>The "chief" Warg Rider (named Sharku) was played by Jed Brophy, who also appeared in Braindead, one of Jackson's very early films (a wonderful gore-fest), and also Heavenly Creatures.<P>--------------------<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well i at least got the witchking and gothmog part right. He played Lurtz? I did not know that.

[Reg Pither]

Good grief, how could I not have seen it?!? It never once occurred to me while watching the film that the pathetic Elephant Man/Goonies creature was supposed to be the great Gothmog! That's taken my opinion of the film down a good notch or two.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>He'll probably be killed by one of our heroes in the extended edition. My guess is Aragorn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This 'orc' probably will be killed by Aragorn, unless they scrapped one of his death scenes, because:<P>*I watched some hour long thing on NBC on RotK before the movie came out, & they talked about how the (& I quote) 'pink-faced orc' ( ), was played by the guy who played Lurtz. Before that, they showed him being hewn down by Aragorn, so I presume that's how he will be taken out (thankfully), & hopefully not trouble the unhappy RotK viewers any longer. <P>To me, the guy is a classic example of <I>someone</I> letting their imagination run away with. Come on, he's pink! Have we ever seen an orc like him? How did this one orc get to look so different (& incredibly stupid) compared to the other ones? Etc., etc., oh yes, & (as I've mentioned on another thread) he's also equipped with the sterotypical-bad-guy-voice . Just a pathetic character I thought. Surely they can have another roughly normal looking orc to stand out as captain? Look at the leader of the Uruk-Hai in TTT, he stood out pretty well, & yet looked like a 'normal' orc. Just my thought .

[Orominuialwen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Come on, he's pink! Have we ever seen an orc like him? How did this one orc get to look so different (& incredibly stupid) compared to the other ones? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe he was an albino? I don't know. When I was watching RotK, I just knew him as "that tumorous (sp?) orc." I'm glad to find out that he's Gothmog. They should've mentioned that in the movie, so it wouldn't be so confusing. I was so disappointed when he didn't get squashed by that boulder. I look forward with relish to when he dies!<p>[ 3:44 PM December 31, 2003: Message edited by: Orominuialwen ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It was suggested by someone on the Downs that it was the filmmakers attempt to introduce a non-black evil character to avoid accusations of racism.<P>I personally thought that movie-Gothmog looked (I'm sorry for saying this again but I feel that its necessary) like a pig, and thus ridiculous. I especially didn't like the part where he spat on the rock.<P>I would much rather have had a terrifying, huge Uruk in that position. (though not under the name Gothmog, as I don't believe Gothmog was an Orc)

[Olorin_TLA]

He's Ganon. :'(<P>Yet very, very soon before the film came out (2 weeks I think) they had a picture of gothmog in the Sunday Times Magazine - and he looked AMAZING!!! It was only a head+shoulders shot, but he looked brilliant! On par with the WItch King! He basically had some hideous helm with bits of bone and horn sticking and writhing out of it, he looked more monster than human(oid)!<P>So imagine my shock when we got Mr Blobby...

[Gorwingel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I would much rather have had a terrifying, huge Uruk in that position.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wouldn't that have been impossible because Uruk's were creations of Saurman, and Sauron only had the ability to create armies of orcs?

[Everlen]

I think in the book it talkes about Sauron having uruks also. Maybe not I can't remember. I agree with the part where he spits on the rock. He can't even close his mouth with all that insulation-foam-looking stuff on his face, so how was he suppose to aim his spit at all? If he really had it would just have run down his face... that mental picture is funny! Ahahaha! I called him the Half-orc-half-brain character. Ugh. I hated him. The way he should die is by a troll nocking his head off because the troll gets too annoyed with them. Then the rest of the orcs cheer...

[Lord of Angmar]

The race of Uruks actually is believed to have first appeared in Mordor. This raises an interesting point, since it means that all or almost all of the orcs at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields in the movies must have been Uruks, since they fought in broad daylight, as regular orcs are not at all wont to do. In the books this was explained by the darkening of the sky, but the movie only briefly and inconclusively touched upon the darkening, and for all intents and purposes it was still very much daylight out at the Battle.<p>[ 3:02 PM January 12, 2004: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Argh! Serious mind blank here...I've read it five times, and I can't remember who Gothmog was!!!! <P>And that whole Uruk-hai thing has really confused me...because I had thought Sauron created them (how I don't know- someone enlighten me?), but Saruman did something too...or am I getting confused with the movies? *Bangs head on the wall*<P>Argh man, that orc poster was terrifying...my German teacher kept bringing me the posters because I don't get the Times at home...lol.<P>But I couldn't stand looking at Mr. Blobby...I thought his prosthetics must have got melted or something, he looked so demented. And that bit with the rock...I swear it wasn't just the audience who wanted him dead (aren't we a bloodthirsty lot?! I want to see Braindead now...erm what is it about exactly?), I swear the other orcs wanted him dead too...

[nobody]

I think Gothmog should have been a black Númenórean or at least an uruk, but not a mere snaga. He could not have been a ringwraith as I think in Unfinished Tales it says that all the Nazgûl except the Witchking were confused and disoriented in daylight, especially Khamûl. The movie battle never had any sky darkening or anything, so he should have been a Black Númenórean.

[Olorin_TLA]

Uruks and Uruk-hai are different.<P>Yes, I know it's the same word, but that's because bred Orks are hardly going to call themselves "Uruk 2.0" are they! <P>Uruks are basically toughter Orks...sun still gets to them, but not as bad I'm willling to guess, but only because they're tough enough to put up with it.<P>Uruk-hai on the other hand are Half-Ork, Half-Men bred by Saruman, and can withstand the sun fine, even though they don't like it, and they're taller and stronger and generally better in every way than normal orks. Uruk 2.0 indeed!<P>Don't worry about not remembering Gothmog - he only appears in 1 sentance in RotK, where it says that after the WItch King's death Gothmog, leiuetnant of Morgul, calls up reserve troops for the fight out of Osgiliath.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yet very, very soon before the film came out (2 weeks I think) they had a picture of gothmog in the Sunday Times Magazine - and he looked AMAZING!!! It was only a head+shoulders shot, but he looked brilliant! On par with the WItch King! He basically had some hideous helm with bits of bone and horn sticking and writhing out of it, he looked more monster than human(oid)!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmmm, perhaps that was the Mouth of Sauron? I've heard he went through a lot of makeup, but I've never seen a pic, so I'm just taking a wild stab in the dark, really.

[Oddwen]

Ah yes, the Sta-Puft Marshmallow Orc. I did not like him. Every word he uttered in my book could be counted the worst lines in LotR. I hope he has a death scene in the EE.

[Laitoste]

In the ROTK review in The New Yorker for the week of January 5, they explain the orcs at Pelennor Fields:<P>"...ugly thugs commanded by what appears to be a giant potato..."<P>I thought that was great...he disgusted me!

[Maeglanthirion]

Yes he should die. I hated him. He was hideous, but that made him all the more hateworthy. If Aragorn kills him in EE, it will be interesting to see how he so quickly gets from the docks to the Pelennor and how he would find him. The Rohirrim charged and we saw a shot of his scared face and they Rohirrim really swept forward then turned and charged at the oliphants. Now what was their official name again. Mumakil or something. Ha, I got that from the video game. Anyway, i assumed the Rohirrim slew him and it was fine to me.

[nobody]

<B>Olorin_TLA</B>:I thought that there was only one breed of Uruk-hai. First, Melkor captured men and tortured them into orcs, then in the third age Sauron bred them with more men to make them black, bigger, stronger and able to stand sunlight. These Uruk-hai were known as the black Uruks of Mordor. Saruman just copied them-they were both the same breed.

[The Only Real Estel]

nobody: I think that Sauron only created Uruks (uruk hais, I don't know), & then Saruman 'prefected' them, or so he thought. Could be wrong, though...

[Quirkette]

He really was messed up--he appearred to also have a uselessly deformed hand, did you notice? Joeseph Merrick had a useless arm like that, too. I dunno, it seems that anything goes for orc makeup, doesn't it? They're so screwed up.<P>I love the ones that have metal bands set into their faces. That's lovely. I also liked the orc with no nose--just a kind of blunt peg or something.

[Oroaranion]

Did anyone else notice that he looked a lot like Yoda? And he had the deformed hand and shoulder. The most amusing orc was the one with the skull pinned to his head<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where have you pirates been? Your always late!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Then Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli jump off the ship and the Dead Army swarm those dumb orcs!

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The most amusing orc was the one with the skull pinned to his head<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He reminded me of the pirate in PotC with the wooden eye (when in the moonlight), but I think I'm a little of-topic .

[Phervasaion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The most amusing orc was the one with the skull pinned to his head <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know i realy cant remember when he appeared. Can someone tell me when please (So I can look out for him next time).

[Bill the Pony]

First time I saw ROTK, I really liked the inclusion of this character (personifies the orcs and all)...but the second time I was irritated beyond measure and wanted to throw my popcorn at him every time he appeared on screen. He came across as stereotypical-drill -sergeant-meets-Elephant-Man, an unholy union of stock characters. <P>This isn't exactly on topic, but does have to do with orcs... weren't their eyes a wee bit too large and brown? I actually felt sorry for them when the Rohirrim charged. ("oh, look, they have puppy-dog eyes! They're not so evil after all!")

[Lily Bracegirdle]

The guy with the skull hat is usually standing next to Gothmog, and he is one of the first run over by Aragorn and the Dead Army.<P>On the A&E special last night they showed the filming of a scene where Gothmog was chopped up by both Aragorn and Gimli. Gimli did his patented "groin chop" again -- I wish he didn't do that. It makes him seem ridiculous. Anyway, this scene or one like it may be on the EE.<P>-Lily

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gimli did his patented "groin chop" again -- I wish he didn't do that. It makes him seem ridiculous. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Very. I was just thinking to myself a few days ago, "Wow. We actually got through RotK without any of that!" Not to last, I suppose...

[Finwe]

Oh dear, and to think, I thought that our dear Dwarf would finally mature, and realize that hacking at people's groins is NOT a mature way to kill them.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The guy with the skull hat is usually standing next to Gothmog<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Really? I didn't notice that. I just figured he died when the Rohirimm ran over them all (who wouldn't figure that?).

[Grimkû the Blood-Axe]

i would like to see this picture of everyones favourite Gothmog from the Sunday Times. I am trying to get a picture of him for my avatar but unfortunately no luck yet. Anyway, who was this 'pirate' orc with the skull and **** voice. Anyone know his name? The URL below is for all us orc fans..<BR> <A HREF="http://www.orcs.ca" TARGET=_blank>http://www.orcs.ca</A> <P>And if anyone can find me a pic of good old Goth'hog' it would be appreciated.

[SamwiseGamgee]

I thought he was hideous, revolting, evil, merciless and generally everything an orc should be, so that's good. However, I don't think he should have been an orc, but I'm pretty sure that's a thread somewhere in the books!

[Erundil]

I honestly think that both "Gothmog" (who looked like he had either a really bad case of leprosy or had had a run-in with the Crack of Doom on a bad day) and "Skull-boy" (that's what I'm calling him from now on) were both horrendously done. I know PJ has made some bad choices in filmitography (Xenarwen, Elves at Helm's Deep, the Searchlight of Mordor), but I think this one comes close to taking the cake.<BR>I mean, come on, the dreaded Lieutenant of Morgul is an albino orc with a skin disease, and his second in command is a nerdy-looking little orc who has some dudes skull tied onto his helmet? This is pathetic. They could have at least made them look a little more 'normal' (however far that adjective goes with orcs) instead of their hilarious clown-like selves.<BR>Thus ends my daily rant against PJ and Co., with me thinking about how crappy a movie that I tried to make would be, but still being mad at them for not being truer to the book.<p>[ 10:31 PM February 02, 2004: Message edited by: Erundil ]

[Finwe]

Perhaps he wanted to humorize (is that even a word??) the Enemy, to balance the "scary" Dark Lord and the Witch-king.

[numenorean]

Except the 'scary' Dark Lord was only 'scary' when he appeared at the very start of FoTR as a heavily armoured 9ft+ man-ster. As a vaguely psychedelic eyeball, not so much.<P>Gothmog was just so lame and 80's-looking, made Lurtz look like Morgoth in comparrison.

[Kransha]

Hmmm...I smell the eerie satisfaction and convenience of Extended Edition resolution of this little problem.<P>I had always suspected that Gothmog (before seeing the movie) was not an orc. It didn't seem any orc was smart enough to be Lieutenant of Barad-dur. Plus, that particular orc happened to be the most obnoxious and ugly, though the sidestepping-the-rock thing gets him bonus points in my preverbial book.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Numenorean makes a good point. I remember not enjoying Lurtz's voice but at least he was genuinely scary looking and he was at least a good fight for Aragorn.<P>Can you imagine the hog-orc challenging Aragorn or Eomer or Faramir or...hell, even Samwise! They would burst out laughing and once they had had composed themselves they would nonchalantly stride up and lop his head off. (Maybe not Samwise though, not tall enough.)

[numenorean]

Yeah <B>Eomer,</B> Lurtzy was uber-strong, very menacing and utterly convincing in his Uruk arrogance, and like you say, even a handful for Aragorn. Contrast his diabolical presence with Boss Hogg-Orc and theres no contest at all. Hoggy is out of his depth, not that threatening (despite his legions of troops) and in the wrong decade with regards to special effects/make-up. I find it wierd that he even made the final cut.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Everybody hates the movie Gothmog, so it seems. I kind of liked the character. He reminded me more of the book's orcs, less beastly and animal-like and more smarmy if that's the word . . . sort of like a Klingon in attitude. <P>I admired the fact that he had the brass to not actually cower in fear at the presence of the Witch-King, no matter how much distance he attempted to maintain . . .<P>While the makeup was 'strange' at best, it did the job of making him distinctive and twice as foul as any normal orc. I wouldn't have minded seeing some hair on him though, or a helmet, or war-paint. I really think the Morgul-Uruks should have been rocking white crescent moons on their dark faces, circling their eyes and such. Would have been comparable to the Uruk's 'White Hand'. The Black Uruks seemed at least as badassed as the Uruk-Hai, and in greater numbers; no wonder Grishnakh didn't buy into that 'we are the fighting Uruk-Hai crap'.<P>I always tend to throw war paint on orc drawings, it seems like something they'd be into.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I'll go against the grain and say I liked the movie's Gothmog; twice as foul as any normal orc and just the type to disrespect an ancient name of power and terror. <P>Anyone with the nerve to not cower in fear at the Witch-King's voice and presence, no matter what kind of distance is maintained, is pretty damn tough in my book. Also, I liked his intelligence and how Gothy was quite a bit less animalistic and stupid than most of the orcs we've seen - a lot more like the orcs of the book. The Uruk-Hai seemed sort of intelligent at first, but a breed created solely for fighting is limited in thought, which explains sentences like "We are the fighting Uruk-Hai, we rule . . . White Hand good". Well, it's not a stretch, if it's made up. <P>Gothmog returned orc-kind to a swart, smarmy, even crass race but not a dumb one. <P>Yeah, the makeup was iffy; pasty faced and gross. I like the grossness, and actually it makes sense that the orc-commander of Minas Morgul would be somewhat pale; how often would he be out getting a tan plus, everything about that place seems pale. Maybe he could have used some war-paint, a sickening crescent moon painted on half his face in black - as a matter of fact, that's something I would have liked to see on all the "Morgul-rats".<P>I also liked how he had himself a Warg to ride - after all, a guy in his position had to have some resources.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I also liked how he had himself a Warg to ride - after all, a guy in his position had to have some resources.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now <I>that</I> was the only good part (IMO) of Gothmog's inclusion. That shot was awesome, him all cocky, swaying back & forth, & his Warg snapping at the orcs. Although no doubt Saucepan Man didn't appreciate having to see another Warg in RotK .

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Now that was the only good part (IMO) of Gothmog's inclusion.
I agree!
I saw the film yesterday again and I noticed that Gothmog actually had 2 eyes. I had thought that the hideous hole in his ugly face was an empty eye socket but there was a tiny eye in the hole!! (if there was a "throw up -smiley", I would insert it here)