PJ's Sauron

[elfearz1]

What did you think about how PJ showed Sauron go?

[thread titles should have some indication of subject - note that the line for it is labelled that]

[Lindalirien O Lorien]

In my opion it seemed somewhat "comical" in a sense. I could hear the Eye saying "NO!!! I HAVE BEEN VANQUISHED NOOOOO!!!" in my head I really didn't like it that much. I also didn't like how the Eye looked at all in the third movie, it looked totally different in the first two movies, but that's just my opinion...

[ArwenBaggins]

I went and saw RotK for the forth time last night and just now noticed how much the Eye looks like a giant spotlight or lighthouse. It seemed to be scanning the land in a giant circle.

[kboleen]

It was okay, but I did miss seeing the "black shape" rise into the air over the battlefield and then blow away into nothingness.

[Knight of Gondor]

I kind of didn't like the Lighthouse approach. It's like, first it's only an eye, then suddenly it's capable of shining light? How strange is that? I did also wish that the wraith-like cloud would have emitted from the dark tower to blow away, but no go. Besides frantically looking around, there wasn't a lot to indicate Sauron's end. Strange, since the whole title is about him, and the whole plot centers around defeating him.

[Gorwingel]

I thought it turned out good... But just good. It could have been better. But I do have to give the filmmakers credit because it was one of the most difficult scenes (in my opinion) to translate into visuals. It is a very descriptive scene, with a lot going on, so I can understand why they went the way they did. But I did find the whole eye moving around franticly after the destruction of the ring quite amusing :)

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

I didn't think it was particularly spectactular, but good enough...at least, I didn't notice anything wrong with it. As for it looking different...that's nothing to the transformation Gollum made from in the mines of Moria to how he was in TTT and ROTK...

[Duncariel]

It looked sort of like it was trying desperately to hang on, and that just didn't work very well. He was a great big Eye, for heaven's sake! It all looked a little too cheesy for my liking. I always sort of pictured the Eye of Sauron as more of a figure of speech than an actual literal eye...

[Essex]

Look everyone, I've read dozens of posts about this lighthouse eye since the film's come out.

Live with it!

Just imagine if we had Sauron v Aragorn (which WAS filmed I've been informed) at the end of the film, EVERYTHING else 'wrong' with Sauron would have been forgotten.

Just be thankful, that like Arwen at Helm's Deep, Jackson was swayed by public opinion and re shot the scene (obviously the big nasty troll replaced Sauron at the Black Gate)

How else could Jackson show Sauron hunting for the Ring other than having a light beam show where he was looking? I think it explains quite well the line from ROTK where Sam puts on the Ring Immediately he felt the great burden of its weight, and felt afresh, but now more strong and urgent than ever, the malice of the Eye of Mordor, searching, trying to pierce the shadows that it had made for its own defence, but which now hindered it in its unquiet and doubt.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

They could have shown it in a way where Sauron was not a giant flaming eyeball.

However, I did like Sauron's physical form at the battle at Mount Doom (you know, the physical form he couldn't take after he lost the Ring *groan* )

That was good and frightening.

[Lindalirien O Lorien]

I agree with you Eomer,
I loved Sauron in the prolouge. For after, when the ring was found again, I think it would have been cool to NOT show what Sauron looked, you know like Tolkien did, not really mentioning Sauron's appearence. Then again, it might have been hard to do and I did like it when the eye would flash on screen when Gandalf bent down to touch the ring and when he covered the Palantíri.

[DarkRose]

I thought the Eye was effective in the way that it made the audience realize how dangerous it was for Frodo and Sam to be scuttling about in Mordor, trying to reach Mt. Doom. I mean, they could have been caught at any moment! I think the way the Eye was portrayed emphasized that quite nicely.

[Kath]

Actually did anyone else find that when the Eye was turning, it looked like it did see Frodo before he fell over?

[Lindalirien O Lorien]

I did, why?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I actually didn't mind the way they portrayed Sauron... could have been worse. Can you imagine if they carried the whole lighthouse thing and then when the Ring was destoryed, the Eye started to flicker and then go out like a lightbulb? That would have been infinately humourous.

(you know, the physical form he couldn't take after he lost the Ring *groan* )

Actually........... if you will please remember Gandalf at the Council of Elrond (straight from the book, page 281 in my edition):

Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and secretly explored his ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other than Sauron, our Enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again .

Unless Gandalf means the shape of a giant floating eye, than most people are mistaken when they think Sauron was formless.

Fea

[The Only Real Estel]

Well, first off, you can find my opinion & losts of other people's too at this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10221&perpage=40&pagenumber=1). But I guess I'll re-state mind here anyway (briefly :p):

I thought that Sauron being symbolized as an eye ontop of Mordor was a little iffy, but I could work with it. I thought that their original idea of Sauron fighting Aragorn in front of the Black Gate was totally lame, fortunatly, they decided against introducing that. I was very disappointed in RotK's portrayl of Sauron, because they:
a. Limited Sauron's vision to this little beam of light.
-and-
b. Completely destroyed what they said earlier about how Sauron's gaze could pierce earth, cloud, shadow, & flesh. Kinda makes you wonder why Sauron couldn't see the hobbits, then, who hid behind flimsy rocks & elven cloaks that, althought they were powerful, could never have stood up to Sauron's gaze. Much less a highly concentrated gazy sight beam :rolleyes:. Please. It was pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.


Unless Gandalf means the shape of a giant floating eye, than most people are mistaken when they think Sauron was formless.

I believe that Gandalf means that he wasn't just a spirit, but wasn't quite a physical form, who knows? The main thing is that PJ changed it to he 'could not yet take physical form, so that's what the movie Sauron is judged by...the movie version of Sauron.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Feanor, the *groan* that I inserted into my post was supposed to indicate my exasperation at the film's mistake, which has contributed greatly to many book fans being confused about Sauron's physical form.

But I guess irony doesn't travel well in cyberspace. Maybe I should have put one of these; :rolleyes:

Trust me. I know that Sauron had physical form.

[Saraphim]

I thought the way they did Sauron was quite good, but I had to laugh at the end of RotK. He just became quivery and twitched around. It would have been better if PJ had put in the cloud-shadow-hand thing, because the way it turned out was like:

"Oh, pizzle, I'm going to the Void."

It was just humorus, not impressive, like the book is.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ah, Eomer, allow me to apologize. I've had my own bit of trouble with the transferring of sarcasm and irony to the web... It usually doesnt work. Still though... I really did kind of like the giant eyeball thing. Since there is no description anywhere of Sauron's physical form in the 3rd Age, yet there is a very detailed one of his eye-shape, it did make sense to just use that.

Fea

[Lhunardawen]

Actually, I was wondering why Sauron the Spotlight did not seem to respond to seeing Frodo in Mordor...yes, I did see his "light" shine upon him.

I really hated the spotlight idea, but I agree that it was probably to give emphasis to the fact that he swayed his attention from Frodo and Sam to the army mustering at his gate.

The White Lady of Lindon

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Apology accepted Feanor. :)

Even if I do take the opposite view from you, that Jackson's Sauron was poor.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Let me clarify: I like the eyeball spotlight thing because of how else it could have been. Just think of all the other ways PJ could have portrayed Sauron... I won't even go into detail, but think along the lines of a really big ringwraith with a very deep voice and sparkly powers.

Personally, I never thought of the Eye as being a tangible thing... I always saw it as his "inner eye", so to speak. Sauron's power, in concentrated form. His spiritual side more than anything... so when I first saw an actual firey eye floating above Mordor... Needless to say I was shocked. But after I got used to it, it started to make a bit of sense. Of course... We , as dedicated Tolkienites (ie: obsessive addicts) could have done a better job... ;)

Fea

[Carlas]

I'll have to agree with Feanor on this one. I like the eye, rather than the cloud that looked like sauron or something like that in the books. (I can't seem to remeber exactly what happened in the books...) But I thought it would have been better if the eye wasn't squirming around like it was, for all of the first two movies it never moved, and all of a sudden it's jumping about.

[Lord of Angmar]

I found Sauron's ending in the movie to be unfortunate at best and ridiculous at worst. Not only did the shifty imploding eye look strange and almost laughable, but it was also deceptive to moviegoers not familiar with Tolkien's works. Why couldn't PJ just have had Sauron in physical form for his demise, or at least stick with the text in "Mount Doom" by having the ghastly shadow of Sauron rise up and be swept away by the wind?

[Enorëiel]

Quote:
Actually, I was wondering why Sauron the Spotlight did not seem
to respond to seeing Frodo in Mordor...yes, I did see his "light"
shine upon him.

That is something that reallly bugged me. I liked the idea of "the eye" until ROTK came around and they added a spotlight to it. I nearly started to laugh when I saw it for the first time. I get that it was supposed to be "all seeing" but the spotlight was a bit much for me. Also, you'd think that the eye of Sauron would have reacted to seeing Frodo, yeah so he didn't know WHY he was in Mordor but all the same you'd think he might assume as much.

[The Only Real Estel]

Also, you'd think that the eye of Sauron would have reacted to seeing Frodo, yeah so he didn't know WHY he was in Mordor but all the same you'd think he might assume as much.

Even if he didn't guess why the hobbit was in Mordor, he wouldn't have just let him be.
The lightbeam was ridiculous, but Sauron not acting on seeing Frodo was much worse. O wait, I forgot, Frodo eluded the eye by falling to the ground & blending in with the rocks :rolleyes:.

(not to mention the fact that, even if Sauron would've somehow not seen him at first, that drunken dance he does before losing his balance would draw attention to him faster than you can say 'stupid')

[Esgallhugwen]

I actually really liked to the Eye in the first two movies and very much enjoyed how they made Sauron in the Prologue, but in ROTK I found the twitchy lighthouse to be ridiculous, and stupid.

I laughed when the tower fell over and the pupil was dilating and constricting in a very laughable way, like *oh crap oh crap I'm falling and theres nothing I can do!* And I really think that when the tower was destroyed that I shoudn't have found it comical. And the beam of light what the heck was that all about? :rolleyes:

I believe that having Sauron appear as a black cloud type figure then being swept away by the wind would have worked very well in the movie version. Who knows I might have even found the twitchyness to be tolerable, (except when the tower falls over, something else should have happened like the eye just disappearing or going up in a spiral of flame than doing the black cloud thing) if it wasn't for Sauron The Lighthouse. :p

[Laitoste]

In the first movie: Great! I loved it.

In the second movie: He's not just an eye! Gollum talks about him having fingers. Last time I checked, eyes don't have fingers. Anyway, how's he gonna use the ring with no fingers. I suppose that, since his eye was more of a pointy oval (instead of a circle~it's called an eyeball for a reason, folks!), he could get it over an end...

In the third movie: Okay, this is just PATHETIC! What happened to peripheral vision, anyway? It doesn't look like he has any.

That's my view. The flashes used in the first movie were awesome. I jump everytime. I realize that it would have been implausible to continue that into the second and third movie, but being a giant eyeball (or should I say eye-football?) really has no tactical advantage except being able to see better. It would have worked better if they said that it was part of Sauron (or something to that extent) and cut out the lighthouse act.

[Morsul the Dark]

i think it was well-done...the spotlight was merely to show how he got distracted...i think he did see frodo but he didnt guess his purpose and was merely pulled away before being able to think about it... :p

[The Only Real Estel]

i think it was well-done...the spotlight was merely to show how he got distracted

If that part of your quote was serious, here's my response to it :):

It showed how he got distracted, but it also was foolish. Sauron is all-seeing (nearly), & wouldn't have his sight concentrated in a beam like that for any reason. If they wanted to show that he was distracted, they could've just shown his eye swiveling towards the Gate. Just leave out the beam though. :rolleyes:

[Kath]

The eye of Sauron was actually quite a disappointment in the film, especially in the third. I loved the way he was portrayed in FotR but in RotK PJ seemed to have just stopped caring about making it look at all realistic. It was weird that it stopped on Frodo for that long and yet apparently did not see him, also if he is all powerful (though i could be making that bit up) he wouldn't need to skim his eye over his entire land as he would know what was happening in it anyway!
Anyway, apologies for the complaining.

[Boromir88]

I found it sort of comical too, especially with the hole "spotlight" thingy, jeez with that they might as well of put in sirens. "weewoo weewoo weewoo, hobbit spotted, hobbit spotted." But as for the destruction yes the eye, I can picture "ahh i've fallen and can't get up." I thought the destruction was done well despite the few laughs I had on it, and the whole ground falling apart except around the warriors of the west was kind of cheezy.

[Morsul the Dark]

If that part of your quote was serious, here's my response to it :):

It showed how he got distracted, but it also was foolish. Sauron is all-seeing (nearly), & wouldn't have his sight concentrated in a beam like that for any reason. If they wanted to show that he was distracted, they could've just shown his eye swiveling towards the Gate. Just leave out the beam though, for gosh sake! :rolleyes:

just because he is all seeing doesnt mean he sees everything at every second he was merelyy concentrating on one thing plus americans would have been to dumb to relize what was going on it the eye merely moved it was to build tention

[The Only Real Estel]

just because he is all seeing doesnt mean he sees everything at every second he was merelyy concentrating on one thing

Eh, really it's not worth taking over a thread just to argue between the two of us on a point, but here's my take on what you said anyway :p:

Of course he can't see everything all the time. If he could, he would've caught Frodo long ago. But he doesn't have a concentrated light beam that he points at people/places when he's thinking really hard. If he's concentrating on the orc army, than he could easily concentrate on the entire army, not 10 or 15 different ones every few seconds. Having his eye turned to Frodo/Sam, then swivel around to the Gate would work very well if the Director pulled it off correctly (which I'm sure he could/can). Anyways, if you really want to discuss it anymore, you can always PM me :/.

[Kath]

Ok Morsul the Dark I agree with what you said about building up tension and all but you can't say "americans would have been to dumb to relize what was going on it the eye merely moved"! Thats just cruel, especially since I'm sure there are many clever americans some of which visit this site.
But anyway I just reread this thread and somewhere there was a bit about a battle between Sauron and Aragorn. Is this actually true?

[Morsul the Dark]

first of all im american, and secondly if you knew the people i know youd understand i can justify that statement and i should have worded it differently that newbies would been confused for those of us who read the book we wouldve undewrstood what was going on newbies proably would have been confused then again legalos makes it quite clear with his "a diversion?" line i wasnt trying to be cruel.

Aragorn faces the Mouth of Sauron not Sauron himself if it were just sauron sauron wouldn't be a giant eye anymore.

Also I think PJ made the eye physical because in the book it works as just a figure of speech however in a movie you need to actually see a representation of what your up against otherwise it has no worth.

[The Only Real Estel]

But anyway I just reread this thread and somewhere there was a bit about a battle between Sauron and Aragorn. Is this actually true?

Like Morsul the Dark said, Aragorn will end up fighting the Mouth of Sauron in the EE. As rumour had it, PJ & co. were contemplating a fight between Aragorn & Sauron in RotK, but fortunately left it out. Perhaps that was only confused with Aragorn vs. The Mouth of Sauron, but either way, we're fortunate not to have had an Aragorn vs. Sauron matchup! :eek:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I wonder how they would have pulled off an Aragorn v Sauron fight as well as showing the Eye during the destruction of the Ring.

Newbies would be all - "So there's TWO Sauron's! One of them's an eye and one's a monster!"

I wonder. Maybe that's why they left it out, rather than because of the uproar on fan websites that has been suggested as an explanation for leaving out the fight.

[Boromir88]

Eomer and The Only Real Estel,
you two are cracking me up I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, we know that Peter Jackson said that, in the movie, we should really see Sauron fight, because he compared it with Star Wars and asked if we could imagine not seeing Darth Vader? (Of course, the situations are completely different but nevermind, big baddie, MUST SEE! )

This makes me think that he really, really wanted to go through with it (as opposed to the Arwen-at-Helm's-Deep fantasy, which I don't think he was too bothered about). Apparently it was fan uproar that stopped the Arwen thing, and maybe fan uproar has been given as a cause of stopping the 'Gorn-Sauron thing.

But it may just be that Jackson was all set to fine-tune the fight scene (because we know they filmed it), when he suddenly thought "Hold on, we need the eye up there! On top of the tower! Cancel the fight."

[Boromir88]

I was wondering if anyone has seen TTT EE, because I have heard that they spotted Arwen riding out with everyone else at Helm's Deep. I have not seen TTT EE so I was wondering if this was accurate?

I would be extremely, how should I put this, ticked off if PJ included Sauron fighting Aragorn. If they did include it in the ROTK EE, I agree with Eomer, we'd have people wondering if there were two saurons. The eye of Sauron really isn't Sauron but if you have Aragorn fighting Sauron I can definately see people thinking there's two Saurons and getting all confused.

[Essex]

re sauron / aragorn fight.

I think what we have is not a 'eureka' moment by Jackson, but the other 2 scriptwriters obviously talking him out of having the fight in the film.

I don't think scriptwriting (especially THIS book) is Jackson's forte, that's why he got his wife and Boyens to assist. (and in assist I really mean control)

I think boyens and walsh pretended to let him have his way by letting him film the scene, and then explained to him what he would look like after tolkienists had got hold of him if the fight scene had appeared in the film.

So Jackson comes back with a 'ok, no sauron but we'll have this massive orc/troll type thing attack him.'

Cue boyens and walsh look at each other, roll their eyes, and say 'ok, peter, have your troll then'.

We had the same sort of thing hapening in Helm's Deep. Boyens and walsh go into a corner. "OK, let him film arwen knocking seven shades out of a few orcs. We can always airbrush her out afterwards. He'll be too busy working on ROTK to remember anyway......"

[Boromir88]

I think that troll orc guy was supposed to be Gothmog. Gothmog was mentioned in one line from the book and its funny how he gets more screen time and "build up" then the Witch King. The book really never explained how Gothmog looked, or what he was, but he most likely wasn't an orc, Sauron would have never trusted an orc to be 2nd in command of his armies. Some seem to think Gothmog was one of the Ringwraiths but I don't think so. Maybe just some twisted creation by Sauron, or someone Similar to the Mouth of Sauron, who was taken in and learned much magic and necromancy from Sauron. It was believed the Mouth of Sauron was a black numenorean, so Gothmog could be similar.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I am surprised you have missed all the discussion of Gothmog in this forum Boromir88 . Movie-Gothmog is the pink Orc who commands in the Battle of Pellenor Fields.

Try searching through the RotK threads to find debate on Gothmog. I assure you, some of it is quite hilarious. :)

[gorthaur_cruel]

Sauron was most definitely not an eyeball. I can quote many, many sources for this, but I'll quote the two main ones.

This is a quote from Tolkien's letter #246, where he's talking about Sauron in the Third Age, not the Second or First.

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

Can it get any clearer than that?

'Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum, shuddering.

There is a rather large chance that Gollum actually saw Sauron during his...visit...to Mordor. Thus, he would know:) I can't really see an eyeball as having a hand.

There are other evidences that show that Sauron was not an eye. Tolkien once describes what WOULD have happened if Gollum did not bite off Frodo's finger and fall in Mount Doom. Frodo would try to command the Nazguls with the Ring, and they would obey him, to some extent. Instead of forcing him, they would try to coax him into coming out of Mt. Doom (They would still follow Sauron's orders more than Frodo's though). Here, Tolkien says that eventually Sauron himself would come and wrest the Ring from Frodo. Unless an eyeball comes and tackles Frodo, I don't see how that could happen.

That aside, I didn't really like the movie version of Sauron either. It just didn't have the 'mystical' feeling that it did in the book. In the book, Sauron rarely appears, and none of the fellowship actually see him. He's somewhat shrouded in mystery. In the movie, they take him out, give him a shape, and show him off like some sort of...eyeball ;)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

That is very true gorthaur. Peter Jackson's now-famous 'Darth Vader' analogy never made any sense to me. He claimed that we needed to see Sauron in the films. However, I always found Sauron to be particularly effective in the book because we never met him first-hand. There was terror enough in our own imagination.

[The Only Real Estel]

That is very true gorthaur. Peter Jackson's now-famous 'Darth Vader' analogy never made any sense to me. He claimed that we needed to see Sauron in the films. However, I always found Sauron to be particularly effective in the book because we never met him first-hand. There was terror enough in our own imagination.

Precisely. What you don't see can easily be equally effective as what you do see. Besides, now that PJ has gone out on a limb & claimed that we 'needed to see the bad guy' (Sauron of course), where is the bad guy that we needed to see so badly? Obviously he didn't mean more shots of the eye atop Barad-dur :rolleyes:. I haven't heard any explanations or reasonings for his sudden change in philosophy (though I'm sure certainly grateful for it!).

The limb is cracking...

[Essex]

Estel, in answer to your point I haven't heard any explanations or reasonings for his sudden change in philosophy please see my post above. This was only said half in jest. I actually meant what I said in a roundabout way. I believe his main scriptwriters managed to talk him out of having the aragorn / sauron fight. In the end they reasoned with him that such a change to the book would be seen as sacriligeous, and unforgivable. In the end he saw sense.

PS re the eye / spirit / bodily form of Sauron. If we DID see Sauron in a 'bodily' form during ROTK, then we would have no doubt seen the Aragorn / sauron fight. There would have been no way (to the non readers of the book) that he wouldn't have come out for a fight with Aragorn if he had a body. Perhaps there were scenes filmed of Sauron in his physhical form during rotk, but were edited out.

I, it seems for one, am happy with the final version of Sauron in these films. ie as an all seing Eye. Who cares if people say it looks like a light house in one scene. Just accept it and live with it...........

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Jackson could have made Aragorn blonde. Would you, Essex, argue in that case that we should just accept it and live with it?

[The Only Real Estel]

please see my post above. This was only said half in jest. I actually meant what I said in a roundabout way. I believe his main scriptwriters managed to talk him out of having the aragorn / sauron fight. In the end they reasoned with him that such a change to the book would be seen as sacriligeous, and unforgivable. In the end he saw sense.

It is a possibility, Essex. But if it was so important to scare us all by telling us we had to see Sauron & that was all there was to it, is it not so important to explain, at the very least to the non-book audience, why PJ decided to leave him out? Maybe he's going to say a bit about it in the RotK EE, but some of the explanations they give in the EE material leave me cringing & wishing I had the opportunity to ask them just a few questions :rolleyes:.

[gorthaur_cruel]

PS re the eye / spirit / bodily form of Sauron. If we DID see Sauron in a 'bodily' form during ROTK, then we would have no doubt seen the Aragorn / sauron fight. There would have been no way (to the non readers of the book) that he wouldn't have come out for a fight with Aragorn if he had a body. Perhaps there were scenes filmed of Sauron in his physhical form during rotk, but were edited out.

If they just didn't show Sauron at all, we wouldn't have that problem. :) Even if they did show Sauron with a body, I think the non-book-readers would realise that Dark Lords are lords, not knights. And that he'd have learned his lesson from the Second Age. ;)

[Essex]

Eomer. re Jackson could have made Aragorn blonde. Would you, Essex, argue in that case that we should just accept it and live with it?

Yes I COULD live with Aragorn being blonde. It doesn't really matter. (But I must admit it took a bit of getting used to with Malfoy having blonde hair in the HP films. I always thought of him having black hair, but then going back on the books, I realised it WAS blonde).

But as I said it doesn't matter. Aragorn blonde? Why not! Anyway, as the JRR himself tells us about Aragorn, he had a "....shaggy head of dark hair necked with grey, and in a pale stem face a pair of keen grey eyes."

Was Viggo's hair 'shaggy', necked with grey, and did he have keen grey eyes? Who cares? As long as the character was well written and acted well, that is what counts for. Not his hair colour.

I'm just glad that the main thing people seem to be moaning about re ROTK is Sauron's Eye and lighthouse effect. It goes to show what a marvellous film it is if this is the main thing we can think to argue about!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Essex, I am inclined to agree with you on that last point (however, I'm sure you've already found plenty of opposition on the Downs regarding that!). I do think in general the film was spectacular. However, because expectations are so high then there was bound to be complaints.

We could really go off on a tangent here so lets not bother. I still think the eyeball fiasco is worth debating though, and for anyone who wants to resume that discussion, you'll probably have to go back a couple of posts.