The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I don't think you managed to hide from them. Wargs can see just about everything. My guess is that they sensed you were a keen investigator and did not mean any harm.

[SamwiseGamgee]

True, Eomer. I've been doing some research on these winged wargs of your's, Fingolfin, and my results have been most interesting. It would appear that these wargs are in fact the result of a failed genetic experiment carried out by the great warg scientist, Dr. John M. Barnes. Dr. Barnes was trying to create 'the perfect warg' when there was an explosion in his lab and the five wargs he had been working on escaped. It is believed that these wargs bred and there is now a thriving sub-species of warg. Research does not show that these winged wargs can actually fly, though. Have you anything to rebut that, Fingolfin?

[High King Fingolfin]

Indeed, they do Samwise! If you will check my earlier tales, you will find that I did see winged Wargs flying.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Apologies, Fingolfin, I find on closer inspection of previous posts you have indeed alluded to the flight of the winged warg- or, indeed, explicitly referred to it! Anyway, this another fine example of the world of science lying blatantly about our beloved wargs. Probably to try and make us love them less. That, Dr. Science, will not be happening!

[SamwiseGamgee]

The Last King of Wargs
For countless generations there have dwelled in the great halls of the Grey Mountains wargs. These, however, were no normal wargs- if such a phrase can ever be used regarding such a magnificent beast. They were the greatest of all beasts: wise, noble, caring and patient to all of Eru’s creatures were they.

The greatest of all these wargs at any given time was the High King. Back at the dawn of Middle earth, so warg-lore tells, Ulmo had blessed the first High King: Khur-ul-na. Khur-ul-na the Great ruled for many lives of men and was the wisest and greatest of all warg lords. He ruled in his palace city of Ilanti until great age took him.

The warg High Kings ruled in peace until the time of Khrak-ma-va the Ruthless. Khrak-ma-va was the great great grandson of Khur-ul-na, and he had a great vision: one glorious, united kingdom of wargs, It was Khrak-ma-va who established the Council of Ilanti- a group of representatives from each of the nine tribes of wargs. The tribes were rebellious, though, and strong-willed. It was his breaking of them that earned Khrak-ma-va his title ‘the Ruthless’.

“History will judge me as it sees fit, but I have done what was necessary for my people,” were the last words Khrak-ma-va spoke before he succumbed to the poison which had entered him by the treachery of the Council, having ruled the united kingdom for ninety-nine years.

Upon his death Khrak-ma-va was replaced not by his son, the rightful heir to the throne of Ilanti, but by Rkhla, leader of the assassination. The rightful king, Khlu-ka-ra, was forced into exile, and there followed his most faithful servants, but most wargs tarried in Ilanti, for they were loathe to leave that beautiful city. The line of Khur-ul-na remained strong, though it would be a great time till it returned to Ilanti.

In the absence of the true kings the history of Ilanti is black. Only one year after becoming king, Rkhla, known also as ‘the Pretender’, dissolved the Council of Ilanti and declared himself Great High King of all wargs. All was not as well as Rkhla would have liked, though: he was without son. It was in desperation that Rkhla the Pretender made a dark pact with Melkor. Rkhla allowed his mate to be ravished by Carcaroth, great lord of werewolves, and by the Dark Lord’s magic a child was born, and he was named Kharak. The exploits of this fell beast are well documented, and his evilness and treachery were darker than any warg’s before or since. Kharak ruled many years and his reign was both great and terrible. All feared him, and he ruled with an iron rod.

Kharak, though, was only a mortal, and when he was felled by an elven arrow in a great battle north of Mirkwood many of his sons followed him in death, though one son was left, and so it was that the new self-proclaimed Great High King was Mhrak. He would be the last usurper to sit upon the throne of Ilanti, and his time came in only the second year of his reign, when Khra-na-ti the Restorer came to the gates of Ilanti.

“I am Khra-na-ti, heir of Khur-ul-na the Great and rightful High King of Ilanti. I call to you now, Mhrak, to give up the throne to your king,” he called. There was no answer, but then suddenly and swiftly through the gate came Mhrak, a fury in his eyes. There, on the Steps of Ulmo outside the gates of the city of Ilanti fought the two great wargs. Mhrak was strong and able, but the blood of Khur-ul-na the Great flowed in the veins of the Restorer and so it came to pass that he dealt the death blow to Mhrak and strode into the city, the line of Khur-ul-na the Great restored. The line of Rkhla was not broken, though, and Mhrak’s son, Kharak, became King of Moria.

For many generations the High Kings of Ilanti lived in peace and prosperity. The Council of Ilanti was re-established and remained pure. They had few comings or goings with the outside world, for they had grown weary of the treachery and evil so rife around them. For a thousand generations the High Kings of Ilanti sat on their thrones and turned their faces away from the troubles of Middle Earth. It was in the years before the Battle of Dale that things changed, when news came to the High King Khra-tha-la that a dark alliance had been formed between the wargs of Moria, the usurpers, and the dark tower of Dol Guldur. Khra-tha-la knew not exactly what this meant, but he knew it to be wholly evil, so on that day he left the city of Ilanti for Rivendell.

His journey was long and dangerous, for many he encountered realised not that there were yet some wargs pure of heart left in the northern reaches of Middle Earth. Indeed, when he drew near to Rivendell he may have been slain were it not for the fact that one of the elven sentries recognised this noble beast. Generations before, Khra-tha-la’s forefathers had saved the elves from attack whilst in exile. Kharak the Great had later claimed this act of bravery he had commanded, but this sentry, Manolas was his name, knew differently.

And so it came to pass that Khra-tha-la held council with Elrond and the two discussed the meaning of this dark alliance. Elrond spoke of a wizard, an Istar from Eru, who suspected that the Dark Lord Sauron was afoot, and that Dol Guldur was his stronghold. Khra-tha-la spoke of Kharak the Great’s treachery and his alliance with Melkor, and so the dark inevitability of the situation dawned upon them. Khra-tha-la offered his services to Elrond, but the Lord of Rivendell bid the High King return to Ilanti and make his people strong, for there would surely come a day when that strength would be called upon.

Khra-tha-la tarried but a few days longer in Rivendell and then made his journey back to Ilanti. When he returned he called the Council to himself and so they decided that the work would begin immediately to strengthen Ilanti and prepare an army.

For many years the wargs prepared themselves and made themselves strong, and yet there was no word from Rivendell. Some grew weary with this state of alert over what they thought nothing, and so the Council urged Khra-tha-la to relent and allow the city to return to normal. The High King was loathe to do so, but his Council had told him what his people wished, and he was a gracious king. He allowed the city to return to normal save but a few of the finest warriors who he appointed the Royal Guard and had trained further.

Finally Khra-tha-la’s faith in the elves was repaid when a messenger came to the gates of Ilanti from Lothlorien, bringing the word of Lord Celeborn and bidding the High King to join in the destruction of Dol Guldur. Immediately Khra-tha-la and the Royal guard readied themselves and rode forth from Ilanti, even allowing the elven messenger to ride upon their backs. And so the High King’s host came to the River Anduin and there tarried for the Lord Celeborn. He arrived not, though, and growing impatient Khra-tha-la rode upon Dol Guldur.

“I am Khra-tha-la, High King of wargs and servant of Ulmo. Come forth, fell beasts and usurpers, and taste my wrath!” called the High King from the tower’s gates. Almost immediately a host of wargs plunged forth and there did battle with the Kinghost. Both sides suffered heavy casualties, and soon all that remained were three wargs, all of the host of Khra-tha-la. Believing victory was his, the High King stepped towards the tower, but was stopped immediately by a terrible screech in his ears, and as he looked up he saw a terrible winged beast with a black rider on its back. He had heard Elrond refer to these creatures- this was one of the nazgul.

The rider swooped down and destroyed both of Khra-tha-la’s companions almost immediately, landing in front of the High King and dismounting. He drew his great, black sword and raised it, “Die now, weakling,” he said, raising the blade, and at that moment Khra-tha-la had a vision, and in it the Lord Ulmo showed him the mighty, dark waves of a storm and yet how a small boat can survive in these billows. In that moment Khra-tha-la lunged forward and landed his mighty paws upon the chest of the ringwraith. A great cold seized his body and he knew he must act swiftly while the Lord Ulmo still helped him, and so he sank his fangs deep into the throat of his foe. Many great minds have since supposed what happened next. Even Lord Celeborn was dumbfounded when he found what had happened, but it is clear that Khra-tha-la, the last king of wargs, on that day killed a nazgul by the grace of Eru.

Days passed and Khra-tha-la lay next to the spot where he had felled the ringwraith, mortally wounded. The fell beast upon which the black rider had sat had long fled. The dark magic which flowed in the nazgul had injured the High King Khra-tha-la beyond repair, and when Lord Celeborn found the great warg there was little life left in the noble beast. Celeborn knelt down next to him and began to weep.

“Surely you, most noble and great of warg kings, Khra-tha-la have sacrificed more than many would dare dream of giving up. My people shall forever be indebted to you,” spoke Celeborn.

“I am the last of my forefather’s line. My kinsfolk have all perished here with me today. Surely I have brought ruin upon my people,” spake the High king, his heart heavy.

“No, noble lord, you have done as you were called to,” comforted Celeborn, “such is the nature of war.”

“Though I live to be older than the mountains and wiser than the Valar themselves I will never understand how men can see wisdom in war,” spoke Khra-tha-la, and with those words his spirit left him and so the line of Khur-ul-na the Great failed. The united kingdom of wargs failed and they each returned to their own tribes and cities, leaving the city of Ilanti to ruin. Still, though, there are those who believe that the Lord Ulmo shall bless another and the throne of Ilanti shall be reclaimed by the High King.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What an intriguing tale Samwise. It fully portrays the complex nature of Wargs. The ease of corruption, yet the ability to perform noble acts the like of which are rarely seen. It also suggests that Wargs were not given a fair reflection in the tales of the battles and politics of the Third Age of Middle-earth. One thinks that, because so many Wargs did fight on the side of evil, it has led the writers of history to ignore those Wargs who contributed so much good to the world.

Perhaps that is why Celeborn was hardly featured in The Lord of the Rings?

[SamwiseGamgee]

Indeed. In fact, perhaps the Red Book was a piece of anti-warg propoganda? Oooh, the treachery!

[Assasin]

I think the Warg would be good if they were just trained well. My cat used to be a mini feline warg. She would attack you from all directions, but since she's a shrimpy cat, she just bounces off everyone like a bouncy ball.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It is not unheard of for other creatures to be filled with the spirit of Wargs. I once heard of a Dwarf who was cast out of his community for acting Warg-like. Whether this is because of a deep hatred of the Dwarves for Wargs or because it made certain social circumstances rather awkward is unknown. What is also unknown is what became of that Dwarf.

[arcticstorm]

on the contrary, Eomer, I have heard tale of a wild warg pack that wanders the plains of ROhan. This pack, it is said, is led by a beast that is more intelligent than a normal warg, if indeed such a thing is possible. Although no one ever sees this leader, he has built himself a great reputation. Actually, one man has seen him and lived, he described him as, a short dwarf-like creature clothed only in a very long beard. but he is now more grisseled that he wasn't sure whether he was a warg with two legs, or a dwarf with really sharp teeth.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

If you had a team of Wargs and a team of Dwarves competing on University Challenge, I know where I'd put my money.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Exactly, Eomer! Paxman wouldn't be half as snide if there was the threat of a warg mauling hanging over him! And besides, I think we all know that even the entire race of dwarves lack the ferocoity of the warg rider, so surely a team of academic wargs would make short work of them!

[High King Fingolfin]

A dwarf acting like a Warg? It sounds extremely strange to me. Perhaps he wished to be higher than he was by imitating such a noble beast.

By the way Samwise, your tale was wonderful. It spoke to all the truly great qualities of the Warg.

[Gil-Galad]

If you had a team of Wargs and a team of Dwarves competing on University Challenge, I know where I'd put my money.

aye the rosted peanuts...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Have you heard of the Wargs of Eru? It is said that in the Timeless Halls there are six Wargs. They each have six wings: with two they cover their feet, with two they cover their faces, with two they debate whether they could fly or not.

It is said that they act as Eru's personal guard. They are also the messengers between Manwë in Arda and the Timeless Halls. When Dagor Dagorath comes it is said they will fetch Túrin's spirit, and they will consent to let him ride on them. They will descend upon Arda, and battle with Morgoth on the plains of Valinor.

I've also heard there were supposed to be seven of them. One of them, I believe, was seduced by Morgoth. But the story about this one is tantalisingly obscure.

I'll have to dig deeper.

You have to go to class.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

How interesting Nilpaurion. This gets me thinking about the lecture I had earlier today concerning God and spirits and whatnot.

How is Eru to enact effects on the the world? We run into the problem of spirit and matter duality here. But that is a new suggestion you have presented. Perhaps Wargs are this mysterious link between the two. It might be too late for Descartes, but I suggest you sell this idea to the philosophers or priests - whichever can offer more money.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I have found an ancient Valarin text in Ingwë's house. (If you ask how I can enter the King of All Elves' home just like that, it's simple: we're related.) It deals with the events before the Music of the Ainur came to pass--indeed, even before the creation of the Ainur. An excerpt from it is here quoted:

Before everything else Eru first made the seven Grawlar, the Holy Wargs, and there were seven of them. The mightiest was Varsur, the Regent of Eru.

It is said that when the Timeless Halls was completed, Eru said unto Varsur: "Behold I give unto you all authority in this halls, and you shall be its prince, and you will be subject to none, save to him who appointed you." And he was clad with a cloak of precious stones, as a symbol of his office.

However Varsur's pride grew, and walking through the passage of the Timeless Halls he deemed himself to be subject to none, and he attempted to seat himself in the throne of Eru. And the other Grawlar attempted to stay him, yet Varsur was more powerful than they, and soon his foes were subdued, and he trod the steps up to the throne.

Yet Eru came, and with a voice of utter deepness he ordered Varsur to step down. Stripping him of his cloak, he was banished to the Void, where it is said he would remain, until the end of days has come.

It is said the Melkor received instruction from Varsur, and thus caused the fall of that mighty Ainu. It is also said that when the Powers grow weary of their vigilance the twain would break into Arda and battle even with Manwë upon Taniquetil. And for a time they would be victorious. Yet in the end Eru will send the faithful Grawlar, under Argwë, brother of Varsur, and they would vanquish utterly that dread Warg.
Of Varsur (under copyright from Olórin)

Eomer:

I am currently deep in negotiation, but I am now at a loss at what offer to take. The Phytagoreans are offering me a perfect score in any subject connected to Math, while the Jesuits are offering me full ownership of a school they own in the Philippines. Which one to take?

(Sorry to any Phytagorean or Jesuit reading this.)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Try and negotiate an island. Or at least a private swimming pool.

That was a fascinating find Nilpaurion. The parallels with Melkor are remarkable. Is there any inkling as to when Melkor was able to speak and learn from Varsur? Were they ever in Aman at the same time, for example? Also, could these Wargs alter their form?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Well, one Nutcase (yes, Nutcasm is a school of philosophy with some very interesting ideas, like how they thought the world was made by howler monkeys involved in a lice fight) tried to offer me the 7,108th island of the Philippine archipelago that disappears during the high tide. I denied his offer because I don't want a place that reminds me of Númenor.

As for a private swimming pool . . . well, mine already is the size of Asia.

No, wait--that was my bathtub.

Is there any inkling as to when Melkor was able to speak and learn from Varsur? Were they ever in Aman at the same time, for example? Also, could these Wargs alter their form? (Eomer)
Well, in the Ainulindalë it is said that Melkor searched for the Flame Imperishable in the Void, but he did not find it. He did, however, find the banished Grawla there.

The Grawlar are discarnate, and there is no documented case of one ever taking physical form. However, with their potency of spirit (one of them could take on all the Valar with their hands tied behind their back while blindfolded), they might be able to.

I guess we just have to wait until the end times come. Then the Grawlar will descend on Arda for the first time.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Do we need a 'go-between' for Melkor and Varsur? Perhaps not, if the Grawler were themselves the ultimate go-between. I'm sure they could find a way.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Nilpaurion, if the Grawlar were discarnate then how were they linked with wargs. Was this simply a name given to them by Eru or did they indeed adopt the form of wargs which we now accept? Please, do not for a moment think that I am criticising you. I merely hope to get to the bottom of this great new discovery you have made! :D

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Well, SamwiseGamgee, according to those Ainur who had the privilege of seeing a Grawla, their very spirits were in the form of Wargs. I don't know how that happens, but it simply does.

It is said the Morgoth made the evil Wargs in mockery of the faithful Grawlar.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

An old crackpot theory of extension suggests that spirits were extended, despite being immaterial. Now, in my class this theory has been attacked quite viciously, but I will do my best in researching the matter. Perhaps that crazy English scholar we were discussing had more wits than we gave him credit for!

Or maybe he was just influenced in his writings by The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread.

[Gangamel The Wicked]

Evening,

Gangamel here! Nice to see Wargs getting such a healthy tribute!

I used to breed them in the Rhun Hills until they turned on us. I was away at the time, getting supplies for our colony. My faithful companion, Wargy was with me too. He was strong enough not to be corrupted by the others.

Ah, Wargy! He died some time ago and how I miss him. The people we slaughtered together. Now I am left to fester in the Hills by myself.

Maybe you know of other places where Wargs were bred?

Gangamel The Wicked


P.S. I have failed to live up to my name since the death of Wargy. I have fallen into a deep melancholy unheard of for Orcs.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Gangamel, let me be the first to welcome you to the now world famous Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread. It is not often that we have visits from an orc here at the thread, so let me extend a friendly hand to you on behalf of all hobbit-kind.
You are very privileged to have known this Wargy of whom you speak. Tell me, is he the same Wargy to whom Eomer has in past times referred? If so then tell us, was he really as sick and twisted as tales tell. Some have suggested he is the singlemost interesting case study one could have in wargs who went wrong.
Alas, now I must go. May you fester well, Gangamel.

[Gangamel The Wicked]

No, I am afraid it is not the same Warg. I named my warg in tribute to the illustrious Wargy. Although, my Warg was only half the Warg that Wargy was.

Many a man, dwarf and elf did we slay together, but we couldn't destroy entire armies like the real Wargy could.

[Gil-Galad]

You know what i relaized, along side the sensless unappreciation of wargs, the orcs receive so much prejudice, many downers enjoy slaughtering the innocent orcs of Mordor(that reminds me of a hilaurious video that is a mix of Farenhiet9/11 and Lord of the Rings, very funny) since no that this thread is world famous, maybe now orcs, and many other unknown beasts can be appreciated for their...umm....Peach Cobbler goodness?

[SamwiseGamgee]

The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread does exactly what it says on the tin, and no more. We cannot concern ourselves with the ill-fortunes of orckind- no offence, Gangamel.
The injust mistreatment of wargs is more than enough for us to concern ourselves with, and I think it'd take a pretty convincing argument (ie Eru telling me, in person, and accompanying this statement with a signed letter with the witness signatures of at least three of the Valar vouching for thye truth of the statement) for me- or any of us here at the thread- to be convinced that anything else in the whole world was more worthy of my time and effort.

[Gangamel The Wicked]

Wargs are the greatest!

Gil-Galad, it is very nice of you to vouch for my kin and the many other under-appreciated beasts of Middle Earth, but I feel we can only truly appreciate the Warg.

The Warg has everything you need to survive in this world. Many a time was I saved from certain death, at the hands of one of my many foes, by Wargy.

I feel that no beast in Middle Earth had as much courage, strength and bravery as the Warg. They were natural born killers, and for that I am grateful.

Wargs are the greatest! Need I say more?

[Formendacil]

The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread does exactly what it says on the tin, and no more. We cannot concern ourselves with the ill-fortunes of orckind- no offence, Gangamel.
The injust mistreatment of wargs is more than enough for us to concern ourselves with

But is this not The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation thread? Is not the fate of the Warg tied inextricably to that much under-appreciated profession of the Warg Rider, who is almost exclusively drawn from the race of the Ork? Should not those who are concerned therefore with the Warg be concerned also with who ride him?

[SamwiseGamgee]

Ah, Formendacil, your point is noted, but I feel that to bestow the title of Warg Rider upon any other than the original and best is an unwise decision. Now, Eomer can correct me if I'm wrong on this point, but I feel it is a valid one to make.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Apologies to The Appreciation Thread for my lack of engagement recently. Computer difficulties. :rolleyes:

Hail Gangamel! It is always lovely to see more friends join us here. Once again the topic of Wargy has been brought up, though here the legend is given a slight twist. You speak of this Wargy as a true great of Middle-earth, yet we have heard that that is not so right. I can't remember exactly where in The Thread we spoke of him, but he came across as rather a morally reprehensible fellow indeed. Perhaps you care to defend your friend from these accusations?

As for Orcs, now there is an existential dilemma. Great pity we must feel for these wretched creatures, at least in the whole scheme of things. Theirs is a terrible and miserable fate. Yet we should always remember that Orcs and Wargs are not necessarily linked to one another.

Formendacil touches upon a classic issue in common perceptions of Wargs. It is a shame that the title of Warg Rider has been usurped so diabolically in recent times, always by unworthy Orcs. That is not to say that these Orcs are pathetic; who could ever forget the deeds of the 'Warg Rider' of the 3rd Age? That beast who terrified Elrond, Theoden, Faramir, the Dunlending Wildmen and the entire race of Dwarves among others.

But there is only one Warg Rider: Cam Beleg, of whom Samwise has told the full chilling tale already on The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Those persistent computer difficulties have caused you more pain than any mere mortal could ever tell, Eomer. The loss of J'Lo is one which shall forever scar Mohammed Milla, I fear.

But getting back to business. Ahem. I am glad that we have clarified this point regarding warg riders. In the film (that most unholy place as far as wargs are concerned) Saruman commanded that the warg riders be sent forth. This has led to the common misconception that any beast who rides on a warg is a warg rider. False. To be a warg rider takes greatness the like of which you and I may never know. There are a few select warg riders who we here at the thread recognise, but it is not, as far as we are concerned, an expandable list. Perhaps one of us could list a definitive guide to warg riders. I can, off the top of my head, think of only two:
The Warg Rider, Cam Beleg; and
the warg rider of the third age, of whom Eomer has told us.
Note that only one Warg Rider has capitalisation. A key point, I feel.

Anyway, my ambling has persisted long enough. I hope that out there our fellow warg and Warg Rider appreciators have new tales to tell on this, the greatest of threads.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I have dug up no new tale of Wargness in the archives of the Vanyar, unless you want to know about the great sock-hop that happened before the coming of Eärendil.

I may have to search in a new place. Perhaps the local (Filipino) folklore contains influences of the Wargish thought.

[SamwiseGamgee]

I'm sure you shall find that area of the world most conducive to your search, Nilpaurion. Remember my tale of the Black Mountain Warg?

The peoples of those lands have a deep understanding and love for wargs which we athe the Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread can only look upon with envy. Some say that wargs have smiled more fondly upon other lands, I say who can blame them. "When one turns his back on a warg he turns his face to pain," as Elrond once said.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Perhaps I could search for a tale related to the 'warg riders' of Saruman. For I have heard through the grapevine (well, a vine of discriminate sort) that this was not wholly an invention on the part of Peter Jackson and his cronies.

Allegedly there existed a group of renegade Orcs calling themselves the Warg Riders, and they supposedly caused consternation during the early Third Age. Hopefully my search for a tale will not prove fruitless.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Let me tell you, Eomer, that even the tiniest titbit of information regarding such an exciting and rebellious group would be greatly appreciated. My breath is heavy with anticipation, let me assure you.

[Formendacil]

Upon trying out his first set of swords from Gondolin, Legolas finds himself between an ork horde on one side and a Warg horde on the other. (A little known fact is that swords from Gondolin glow green in the presence of Wargs.)

Although posted in jest, I seem to recall an obscure reference in the library at Minas Tirith (where, as I am welcome at Aragorn's Court, I have been found often of late), to the fact that Sting, Glamdring, and Orcrist shone green in the presence of Wargs.

Can anyone with Gondolinic knowledge verify this? If so, was it true for all Wargs, or just those corrupted by Morgoth?

[Gil-Galad]

Wargs were probaly just trained from birth by Orcs...

[SamwiseGamgee]

What treachery is this, Gil Galad! Remember you not those words long written:
"The warg bows to no man. His ways are mysterious and for any to try to control him would be folly. The warg does as he pleases, and whether time or history judges him great or fell he concerns himself not with, for he is a warg and as such he thinks on greater things than any mere mortal such as you or I could ever contemplate."
Orcs do not train wargs from birth! Wargs are that most majestic and beautiful creature, and no orc could sullen the good name of wargdom!

Formendacil, I do not know of any such swords, but I am almost entirely sure this is because my knowlege is lacking and not because you're wrong. I shall research the topic, fear not.

[Gil-Galad]

Then what? they made a pact of their doom? it could also be that they were imprisoned and tortured to obey orcs...if that makes you happy

[SamwiseGamgee]

The problem here, Gil Galad, is that you are applying your own rules of logic and reason to what you understand the situation to be. This is a mistake. Wargs transcend logic, reason, reality and understanding.

Do not try to rationalise the actions of wargs, it is a task which shall only lead downward to doom. Some wargs are noble and great beasts, but others are not. Adolf Hitler loved his country and believed that he was carrying out the wishes of God. One cannot understand this, and so it is with fell wargs.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Gil-galad, Wargs are far older than Orcs. I believe that Orcs could only mould those Wargs already corrupted by Morgoth, the most powerful.

Formendacil, a brilliant observation. Remember the mysterious green hue on the hill when the Fellowship were assailed by Wargs? Possibly Sting related; maybe Sting was an especially mighty sword, powerful enough to call for help from the hilltops, such was the danger the Fellowship faced at that time.

My search for a tale thus far has been entertaining; Elrond's libraries are highly interesting. Though, of course, you have to be wary enough to sift through the lies that Elrond spreads when Wargs are the the topic. Remember that this thread throws doubt on Elrond's nobility that you don't usually find in books on Tolkien.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Aye, tis true. On many occasion I have been left dumbfounded by the sheer hostility and hatred directed by 'the wise' towards wargs. Remember, though, Eomer, Elrond held council with the last King of wargs and after having been saved by them he is perhaps kinder than others...like Gandalf. But that's another story for another day...

[Formendacil]

Formendacil, a brilliant observation. Remember the mysterious green hue on the hill when the Fellowship were assailed by Wargs? Possibly Sting related; maybe Sting was an especially mighty sword, powerful enough to call for help from the hilltops, such was the danger the Fellowship faced at that time.

My search for a tale thus far has been entertaining; Elrond's libraries are highly interesting. Though, of course, you have to be wary enough to sift through the lies that Elrond spreads when Wargs are the the topic. Remember that this thread throws doubt on Elrond's nobility that you don't usually find in books on Tolkien.

Don't forget that Glamdring was also on that hill, and as it said to have been the sword of the king (Turgon), it must have been a mighty sword.

I seem to recall a reference in the Book of Extra-Lost Tales that there was an alliance between the Wargs and the Gondolindrim. I think that the greenish-hue on the swords was a way for the Elves to know when their allies were coming to aid them.

As I recall, the reason Gondolin fell was that the Wargs were delayed from coming to their assistance as they were guarding Elwing and Silmaril's journey to the sea. Earendil always held this against them, although it was entirely an accident, the fault of the forces of Morgoth, and it may explain Elrond's antipathy towards the Wargs, in part. The Wargs were also not present when the Feanorians sacked the Havens, because they were busy holding off the massive host of Morgoth that was coming against them. A greater threat than the Feanorians, but Elrond WAS very attached to his mother...

I'm pretty sure this is the case. The Book of Extra-Lost Tales IS written in an obscure branch of Nandorin, so it's devilishly hard to be certain what they are saying, but this seems to be the conclusive explanation.

[Neurion]

My search for a tale thus far has been entertaining; Elrond's libraries are highly interesting. Though, of course, you have to be wary enough to sift through the lies that Elrond spreads when Wargs are the the topic. Remember that this thread throws doubt on Elrond's nobility that you don't usually find in books on Tolkien.Ah yes, but you must not forget to include the archives of the Stewards in Minas Anor, among others. As I have studied, it has been revealed to me that Morgoth did in truth breed the Wargs of the hardiest of the groundhog strains, thus finally is it explained their predilection for charging off of cliffs; they merely follow their natural instinct (unsuppressed, it must be said, by the sorcery of Melkor) to tunnel down through the earth!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Forward that to Peter Jackson Neurion, you just gave him a lifeline. :D

Though the wise observer will not be fooled by your incisive wit and way around a problem, sir. Melkor did not create the Wargs. He has tried to create new breeds of Wargs though. The experiment didn't really work. They tended to come out of the cauldrons with yellow tentacles or irrational cravings for hot soup. You never know what you'll get with genetic mutation, eh?

Saruman was more skilled in that regard, as the Rohirrim found out all too well.

[Neurion]

Though the wise observer will not be fooled by your incisive wit and way around a problem, sir. Melkor did not create the Wargs. He has tried to create new breeds of Wargs though. The experiment didn't really work. They tended to come out of the cauldrons with yellow tentacles or irrational cravings for hot soup. You never know what you'll get with genetic mutation, eh?Interesting point Eomer. I have returned to the archives and it seems that the source of the story that Morgoth created the first Wargs out of groundhogs is some extant scribbling on the back of a shopping list made up for Vehiron, Captain of the Guards of Minas Tirith under Earnur, by his wife.

However, in the most ancient scrolls and codexes of Numenor yet preserved in the City (not to mention some supplementary material found in the library at Caras Galadhon), we find that, though not originated by Morgoth, Wargs did not in fact exist as a seperate species in the beginning, but were an offshoot of the genus Lupus vindictivous, indiscriminati as the name runs in the speech of the Men of Rúm.

[SamwiseGamgee]

But what does this mean, pray tell?

[Neurion]

But what does this mean, pray tell?Lupus vindictivous indiscriminati [<Lat. 2nd Age <lupus wolf]

Roughly translates as "Large ferocious easily provoked feral canine capable of holding grudges with broad diet".

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Is anyone here familiar with Ludwig Wittgenstein's 'game' example? Perhaps Wargs cannot be defined. More on that later....

As for grudges, well, 'tis true that Wargs are especially skilled in that art. For their memories suffer no boundaries, and they can be very ill-tempered. A nasty hybrid; someone such as Elrond has been kept on his toes by the Wargs for thousands of years.

Pages ago we touched on the subject of the Istari. Now, we generally suppose that the Istari were not Wargs (although those so-called 'Blue Wizards' are tricky) but what of the purpose of the Istari? I have heard that Gandalf and co. were actually sent to act as powerful negotiators to the Wargs because, as we are all aware, the meek and timid of Middle-earth lived in constant fear of Wargs, and that's no real life (according to Manwe anyway).

[Neurion]

Perhaps Wargs cannot be defined.Sort of a Zen thing, huh?

[SamwiseGamgee]

Quite zennish, yes. It's like I said before, wargs transcend our perceptions of understanding- including definitions.

[Neurion]

Quite zennish, yes. It's like I said before, wargs transcend our perceptions of understanding- including definitions.I hate Zen. :D

[SamwiseGamgee]

I'll come clean, I have very little idea of what zen is. But I do know one thing- wargs are better than it! :D

[Neurion]

I'll come clean, I have very little idea of what zen is. But I do know one thing- wargs are better than it! :DYes! And I agree with your statement in its totallity!! :D

[SamwiseGamgee]

Hurrah! Let's hear it for wargs!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Indeed, let's hear it for Wargs! And where better to salute our idols than right here - at The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread!

*waits for rapturous applause to end*

I have found a tale, a devil of one if I may say so. 'Tis a tale filled with blood and unhappiness. Expect it - soon!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Like a multi-million dollar blockbuster movie, the promised tale has us on the literal as well as metaphorical and existential edges of our seats. Please be quick, Eomer!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Eomer, our patience is being tested! Give us a story quick, or we shall subject you to Leonard Cohen albums whilst chatting with a chartered accountant- a punishment favoured by Mughra, the cruellest Warg of all!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Apologies for the delay. I am having some difficulty in translating the tale from the Spanish version I found. Rest assured, I will keep working on it. There are several difficulties in the translation regarding Wargs; you see, I believe the scroll I found is Peruvian and, well, as we have already discussed on this Thread the Peruvians are pretty much unchallenged in their love of Wargs. They invented new Spanish words to be applied solely to Wargs, and I just want to make sure that I get a decent translation.

To keep you amused (or bemused, rather) check out this (http://www.warg.com) and that (http://www.wargy.com)

Ridiculous.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Well this (http://www.warg.com) is very confusing, and that (http://www.wargy.com) is just odd! Good searching, though, Eomer. I'd never thought of googling our heroes. i prefer a good old paper search, but one cannot ignore the power of the net when researching wargs.

[Formendacil]

Well this (http://www.warg.com) is very confusing, and that (http://www.wargy.com) is just odd! Good searching, though, Eomer. I'd never thought of googling our heroes. i prefer a good old paper search, but one cannot ignore the power of the net when researching wargs.

Could that (http://www.wargy.com) be an indication of an interest on the part of the famed Wargy? Surely it is not pure coincidence that his name was selected for that enterprise. Was it just a vile attempt to cash in on his great name, or was Wargy actually associated with things of that nature, so that an association, unlikely though it may be to human minds, was obvious to that of a Warg?

[SamwiseGamgee]

There is a possibility, however slim and unlikely, that wargy was in fact a wedding photographer. Remember that Wargs transcend logic, so while it may seem stupid for Wargy- knowing all that we do about him- to spend his spare time doing so, we cannot apply such statements, because what is 'stupidity' to us, is purest logic to a Warg.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

My, my! What a remarkable site you offer in your signature Samwise. Hopefully word will get around.

As to the link between Wargy and wedding photography, I have grave doubts; but we should investigate, certainly.

My tale of the so-called 'Warg Riders' of the Third Age is ready to post. Perhaps it will shed some light on that infamous movie line. Recall the Orc that sneered in answer to Saruman? They were Orcs of that kind.

*shudder*

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

In the Third Age of Middle-earth, memory only remained of the Warg Rider, Cam Beleg, that most treacherous of foes, death arranged by Melkor in the zenith of the Dark Lord's cunning. But still there were beings who hailed The Warg Rider as a god.

There were a group of Orcs who devoted themselves to carrying out ruinous deeds in the name of Cam Beleg. This motley crew had arranged after being exiled from their homes for being, dare I say.....too evil. These Orcs were true anarchists, showing nothing but contempt for even the Orc hierarchies. Thus, they were banished and left to fend for themselves.

These Orcs included Grifdokh, Marshmak and Bellizor, three Orcs from the large population in Rhun. These three were magnificent warriors who had been denied high office due to dirty Orc politics. They abandoned their people and vanished from the east.

Maldakar was an extremely intelligent Orc. He could converse with any creature in Middle-earth, even the trees, for it is said he was taught by Elves. He had so many enemies that he was not welcome anywhere.

Uchnogh could control water. It is said that he had been assigned this power by Ulmo - by mistake. He used the power to cruel ends. He was hated by the Orcs of Anfalas and banished from their kingdom.

Finally, Sarcroch was a very ancient Orc. He was a sorceror, and he had always been alone.

These six Orcs came together by chance one cold night in the South Downs, south-east of Bree. They quickly perceived that they could gain much from a fellowship. So they collaberated and brought to them many Wargs, for they desired to emulate Cam Beleg, The Warg Rider, the only one any of them had ever admired.

Now, these Wargs were very weak by Warg standards. Corrupted long before, they did all that was demanded of them by the Orcs. And foul things were demanded. Their chief delight was in the pillaging of small villages. They took especial pleasure in the murder of young children and adolescents. They stole everything. They even kidnapped the daughter of one Ragnar, a man of the Wold. He was rendered inconsolable by this. They were, in short, a nightmare to all right-minded people, these Warg Riders.

So, it was decided to destroy them once and for all. But they were so hard to find, due to their many skills. Even when they were found it was difficult to do anything forceful against them. So the enemies of the Warg Riders enlisted the help of a mysterious wizard known only as Kirlyo. He used his skills and advised them to travel to a small pass in the east of Harlindon, where he told his hearers that the Warg Riders would pass in the next three weeks.

They travelled to that pass and set up a secret camp there, no fewer than 500 very angry men led by Ragnar, who was hoping to find his daughter. They waited for days but nothing happened. As they were giving up hope, they turned to Kirlyo to ask what they should do. Kirlyo was gone. At this very moment of realisation, they became aware that they were surrounded by fire. As they faced their deaths, they looked upward to the sky and saw Kirlyo laughing at them. His face slowly turned into that evil picture that they all knew; an Orc. It was Sarcroch the sorceror, and he had deceived them.

Just one example of the way the Warg Riders played the game of horror and pain. They enjoyed it immensely.

[SamwiseGamgee]

A great tale, Eomer. We here at The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation have come to expect only the highest standard of literature, and once again we were not disappointed.

Pray tell, Horsemaster, do you know anything of the Wargs who were enslaved by these orcs? Names, histories? Anything would, needless to say, be much appreciated.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'll look right into it, sir. I am pretty sure they were miserable creatures, not unlike your regular Orcs in that regard. Hating life and themselves but unable to do anything about it.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

If I have tarried long in fulfilling this promise (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=381645&postcount=284), I apologise. I just found out how demanding the task of finding Wargish influence in the Filipino culture is. Wargs were once so ingrained in life of the early Filipinos, yet only traces of this fact remain today, like the dwindling settlements of Warg-worshippers in the mountains of Zambales, just a few miles north-west of Manila.

Now, in Tagalog* mythology, the first man, Malakas, and the first woman, Maganda, were imprisoned inside enormous bamboo stalks before being liberated by a wood-pecking bird. The true reason for their confinement remains unknown, but some say that an evil Warg-rider, Masama, with his Warg, Mabangis, were responsible for this. It seems that they envied and feared these creations of the great Warg chief, Bathala, who deemed that the Wargs needed someone to teach, and thus created the two humans.

Under the cover of night, Masama and Mabangis stole into the halls of Bathala, and took captive Malakas and Maganda. When their disappearance was discovered, Bathala ordered his best soldiers to storm the dwelling of Masama. There was a great battle, in which many of Bathala’s warriors were killed, but not before killing Mabangis. Masama, realising his defeat, planted two bamboo stalks into the ground near Malakas and Maganda, and cursed them never to awaken until the race of Wargs have faded. The stalks grew into two huge bamboo trees, using up Masama’s remaining strength to feed themselves. So Masama died, and the battle ended.

Bathala and his people were grieved at the great loss of Wargs, and the incarceration of his creation. Thus they slowly dwindled, until all but a few remained. So was Masama’s curse fulfilled, and Malakas and Maganda were liberated from their bamboo prison.

This is just one of the stories I have managed to trace to its unhappy conclusion, requiring the aid of some Warg experts in the University of the Philippines’ Department of Anthropology, and a few Warg-worshippers who still live in some remote parts in the central region of Luzon.
__________
* Tagalog is one of the main ethnolinguistic groups in the Philippines

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Wondeful Nilpaurion! And I had wondered where you had disappeared off to. No doubt, the time and effort put into your research has been great. :)

I will comment on the tale in time.

[SamwiseGamgee]

And so the Official Greatest Thread of All Time* breathes once again.

Once agian, Nilpaurion, your post is worthwhile and very educational. It has been too long since I have delved deep into the great lore of wargs.

In just over one week I shall be leaving for India, where some of the greatest wargs of all time have resided, such as the mighty Rajhamar. I shall tell his tale in due course.

*~ As voted for in a recent Channel 4 poll**

**~ This may be untrue

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Some of the great Wargish influence crossed the oceans of the world from that lovely country.

I expect a great tale of Wargishness from you after the trip--which we'll surely get.

Bon voyage! A safe trip!

[High King Fingolfin]

After much time away, (darn school :mad: ), I have come back to this most excellent of threads.

Welcome to everyone new, I'm having trouble keeping track.

Wonderful stories Samwise and Eomer, in keeping with the greatest traditions of the thread.

Samwise- A wonderful site. I see that many people are turning into darkness and rejecting the mighty Wargs. As they said, may God help them.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Well, Fingolfin, you may not believe this but just yesterday the good horsemaster and I were enjoying the fine ambiance which only the Archibald Simpson can offer when that very subject came up. It is unbelievable, as you aptly pointed out, that there are those who cannot- perhaps will not- accept wargs as the wondrous creatures that they are.

Anyway, good to see the old faithful return to that great altar they call The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Greetings Fingolfin! Verily, we thought you had been captured by the Winged Wargs. Glad to see that you are alive and well. :)

Samwise, where's the link to your site? I must see it again!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Update 1:
15 June 2005
I am at Heathrow airport. My connecting flight allowed me much time to prepare for my task.I have learnedmuch of the elusive wargs of the mountains who abide in India. Unfortunately I must now make my check-in.
Stay strong, brethern.

[High King Fingolfin]

I am very greatful that the mighty winged Wargs let me live at all. They probably had mercy on me only because I contribute to this thread.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Update 2:
28 June 2005
Greetings, Warg enthusiasts. I write to you from a town known as Mysore in S.India. It is a place famous for it's magnificent Maharaja's Palace and ancient zoo. I am happy to report that both of these places were of interest.

The Maharaja's Palace housed one of the finest collections of taxidermy I have ever seen, From Bengal tiger to Asian elephant I witnessed them all. Little, however, would prepare me for the sight to be seen in the very centre of the palace. There, in an inner sanctum, was a Great Grey Asian Warg. Legend tells that he was the steed of Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction. He certainly looked it. He was about 8ft at the shoulder and perhaps 12ft long- nose to tail. I asked the guards if he could tell me more, but unfortunately the language barrier was, as is so often the case, my bitter nemesis. Unfortunately cameras are forbidden in the palace also,and so all I have is sweet memory.

The zoo was not, however, so encouraging. In one of the cages was a striped hyena, those most famous of nature's cacklers. Beneath this creatures English name on the sign, however, lay a disturbing Latin translation: Grandus Wargus Stripi. Peter Jackson, where will your mind-melting stop?

[SamwiseGamgee]

Update 3:
1 July 2005
Having now arrived in Bangalore I feel this great sprawling mass of concrete could be the least conducive site to my search. This teeming metropolis is home to nigh on 8 million people, and well we know that the great Warg and man are loathe to share the same territory.

Whilst wandering around the city, however, I did find that there is a large and well-stocked library just off the bussling MG Road. I was only able to spend a few all-too-short hours in that wonderful place, but I am hopeful that it shall yield many results in my search for Warg knowledge.

So I shall go, much rest is needed in this warm and stifling environment. Tell me, though, fellow Warg-appreciators, why do you not post? I long to hear your tales of Warg related tom-foolery.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Do you suppose there might be a female Warg named Arlene? On my very first visit to Florida, I managed to get in the way of a tropical storm of that name and couldn't help but wonder if a flurry of Warg activity might stir up something of that nature...

[Anguirel]

I met a Warg at the Summer Exhibition of the Royal Academy of Arts in London.

He was larger than a horse, prodigiously hairy, and iron-black. I knew I'd found one of the legendary beasties. An outgoing sort, he introduced himself first. I put my (somewhat rusty) Old Wargish skills to use.

"Grrrrrollorcrrr," he remarked. "Hargrrrrrakgrrrr grrr snarrrrrgrrlll."

"I know," I answered. "What do these young artists think they're doing nowadays."

He shook his gory locks wisely. "Grrgshhhgrrrrrk. Gr-hshssss r Borrrrroundoun."

I gasped, realising that my companion was none other than the famed Warg Chieftain Boroundoun the Urbane, of Albany, the most revered Warg in all Sourthern Anglia, and of good strong Caledonian descent. He was also rather a well-known art critic, and contributed a regular column to a magazine on twelth-century Wargish ceramics.

Knowing that this was an opportunity but rarely to be missed, I introduced myself in turn.

"Anguirel, sword of Maeglin Lomion Eolion, at your service."

"Grrrrk yurrrrrrrgrrk rrrrrtgarthrrgh," quoth he (the traditional reply "at yours and your bones').

We had a thoroughly interesting chat and he mentioned the name of a family of rather refined Wargs living in Florence, one of whom had married his nephew, when I told him I was heading there.

The upshot is that I will endeavour to bring back many a gem of Italian Wargish lore when I return (if I return) in four weeks' time.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well Esty, some extremely powerful Wargs can indeed influence weather conditions. I would not be overly surprised (though I would be highly interested) in exploring the possibilities of Wargs being responsible for such dangerous conditions in Florida; tornados, etc. By the way, welcome to the Appreciation Thread! :) I don't know how familiar you are with the many pages of Warg-related discoveries, tales and legends but some posts simply demand to be read over and over.

Hail and well met Samwise! I do apologise for not commenting on your fascinating diary. Rest assured it is because I have had little to say, at least little of much interest. I was most interested in the naming of the hyena. This discovery could set many minds to rest, not least that of The Saucepan Man who (and we here at The Thread can all appreciate) has a particular distaste for Jackson's Wargs.

Keep up the good work in your fact-finding mission, and I hope you are enjoying yourself as much as I suspect you are.


EDIT TO ADD: Anguirel, I envy ye! To actually encounter a Warg in this day and age is so very rare. Even those Wargs of prominence are notoriously hard to charm out of hiding. I wonder what the future of Man and Warg holds, the winds may be changing.

[High King Fingolfin]

Indeed, I feel that the tornadoes in this area last year were caused by the mighty wrath of the Winged Wargs in the area. Luckily they have been merciful so far this year.

Anguirel, where did you learn Old Wargish so well? I've only ever picked up a few words myself. And I quite agree with the tastes of Chieftan Boroundoun the Urbane.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Update 3:
7 July 2005

Having spent the last week in the various libraries, gossip taverns and assorted hell-holes of Bangalore I am glad to now return to my hosts' home and spend the remaining few days in India reading and collating all that I have learned.

Fellow Warg lovers, I cannot enthuse to you enough about the shher, unfettered joy which one may derive from spending several hours in a progressively deteriating state of sobriety discussing with a Brahmin (sp?) the great and wonderful creature that is known as the Warg. This man, his name was Rajinpur Khamar, told me of the great Hindu legends concerning Wargs, and how most uneducated Hindus believed them to be the chariot of demons. He, however, was an enlightened individual belonging to the Dhistar caste, who realised Wargs as the wonderous deities they truly are.

Anyway, my quest draws nigh to its conclusion, and so now I must go and sample more fine Indian foods and liquers, for this type of living is simply not possible at home.

[High King Fingolfin]

I saw we are now sponsoring dancing spawn of ungoliant. Eomer, how did you manage to rent that sig space?

By the way Samwise, Brahman is spelled like so.

[SamwiseGamgee]

That is most interesting, regarding both your points, Fingolfin. It is remarkable that I spent a month in India and didn't pick up on that spelling!

So Eomer, pray tell how you managed the feat of sponsoring a downs member- moreso one who has never posted on this illustrious thread?

[Orominuialwen]

Actually, I think it can be spelled both ways, so both you and my brother are right, Samwise . Seeing as the i/second a is a schwa, and the word is being used outside of its narive language, both are probably equally acceptable. Now I will let this thread get back to its original puropose of the glorification of wargs and butt out of my little brother's territory.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Hail, and well met, Orominuialwen! Please, make no apologies for posting on this thread. We are always glad to see new...um...faces. And believe me, the only thing I enjoy nearly as much as the glorification of Wargs is defending that fairest of tongues: English!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So good to have you back Samwise! And well met Orominuialwen! Please stick around and muse through the pages of Warg lore we have hither gathered.

About the sponsoring: This dancing spawn of ungoliant, a fair and beloved friend of the Barrowdowns, offered space for rent. And I couldn't very well pass up such a grand opportunity of free publicity now could I? The fee shall be paid out of my own pocket so don't worry your little socks; I won't badger you for donations (although donations are rarely turned down).

Let us spread the word!

[Kitanna]

Well Eomer, thanks to your renting out of dancing spawn's signature space, I have finally decided to take a look at your Warg thread. I always thought the Wargs were far more graceful then PJ made them appear, but it never occured to me to join your thread. But I must say, very nice. Very nice indeed. I have only read the first page, but I look forward to reading the rest and hearing of all your tales involving Wargs.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hail and well-met Kitanna! It is always lovely to share these ancient tales with new faces. I am sure the entire thread will keep you amused for many days and weeks. And may I congratulate you on having a noble Warg in your avatar.

Maybe it's time we dug up some more lore...

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

So Eomer, pray tell how you managed the feat of sponsoring a downs member- moreso one who has never posted on this illustrious thread? Well, it is time for me to correct this horrible abuse.

I just have to wonder your great knowledge about wargs! I'm proud to be invited (or pressed *coughSamwiseGamgeecough*) to participate your discussion. I seem to recall a reference in the Book of Extra-Lost Tales that there was an alliance between the Wargs and the Gondolindrim. I haven't read Extra-Lost Tales but I definitely remember and extract from the Undiminished Tails that would support the consept of an alliance of Gondolindrim. It's quite long but I thought you'd be interested to read it. Here it is:

"I have always known the storm would come...
Listen now, my young ones
This not a story I tell
of midnight, moon and sun...

Are you ready to walk the forbidden road
learn again what we tried to forget
The dark can now take over you

We have a common past, an ancient bond
The people once broke
We would only take what we need,
They would harvest our weak,

But they hunted us all,
We ended the last of them, thus far, ten lifetimes ago
In hopes of healing the sore, but the war still went on

Preying for the moon,
Hiding for the day
These might be our last times
I ain't gonna see you taken away...

Heading for the dawn
Of our way of life
You're welcome to give it your best try...
Look me in the eyes, oh, wolver
This ain't your fairy tale...

It took us many years to teach them
How to cry wolf
We made the people serve the purpose
Those ignorant fools... my young ones!

Teach the ones below you something you've learned.
And learn from the ones above you
Fear is your deepest wisdom
For these last days...


The ones who seek justice,
will pray for it all their lives... They can
and they will skin us all one day...
oh can you hear them cries As far as
the man can run from us we're following
the trail of blood So hunt my
young ones, the pack they have always feared is back

On your last day, remember, we never die
death does not exist for us.

They don't fear the wolf, but the wild within
no glory to the way this must end
This is a story I told
Unfolding before you."

The author of this uses "Sonata Arctica" as his pen name. (http://www.sonataarctica.info/index.php) Could this mean that these lines were written as early as in the First Age during the crossing of Helcaraxë?

If we can trust in the Undiminished Tails, the reason for the cracking of the alliance was Men's greed and will to dominate Wargs (which has been proved impossible by all of you). the reason Gondolin fell was that the Wargs were delayed from coming to their assistance as they were guarding Elwing and Silmaril's journey to the sea. Although you said that you're quite certain about this, I think that we should consider the option that the Wargs did this intentionally.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So it is, we should never put blind faith in the Wargs. Great evil have they performed over the milennia. But still, have not Wargs suffered slander that no other race has suffered? The history of Middle-earth itself is designed to halt their progress. That is why the study of Wargs is not for the light-hearted, or the easily-swayed.

Good research dancing spawn, and I would welcome you to the thread but I think you may already have visited a while back? I forget. If not then hail and well met! :)

[SamwiseGamgee]

Aw, come on dancing spawn, you know you wanted to anyway! :D Also, I must extend the hand (paw?) of greeting to Kitanna also. For a long time the horsemaster and I have tended to this thread as a mother and father (but which one is which? :)), and so it is with great joy and not a complete absence of tears in eyes that I welcome new posters. I hope you will continue to muse with us long and with much prosperity.

[Kitanna]

And may I congratulate you on having a noble Warg in your avatar.

It has taken weeks for me to find one that I truly liked. I looked at many Warg avatars and none struck me. Then I found this one and without a moment of delay I had it as my new avatar.

In other Warg news, I am quite convinced my friend is the keeper of a Warg, but she would never admit such a thing.

[Formendacil]

The Wargs were also not present when the Feanorians sacked the Havens, because they were busy holding off the massive host of Morgoth that was coming against them. A greater threat than the Feanorians, but Elrond WAS very attached to his mother...

I'm pretty sure this is the case. The Book of Extra-Lost Tales IS written in an obscure branch of Nandorin, so it's devilishly hard to be certain what they are saying, but this seems to be the conclusive explanation.

I've been doing a bit more research into this branch of Warg history, and there seems to have been a bit of a misunderstanding at the time of the destruction of Beleriand.

As everybody knows, the Edain under Elros pretty much all removed to Numenor at this time, thus leaving behind Middle-earth and the Wargs for many long years.

However, it seems that Numenor was originally not intended for Men at all, but was- in fact- intended by the Valar to be the reward of the Wargs, whose part in the War of Wrath was, naturally, much greater than that of Men.

As a result of this mysterious misunderstanding, the Men of Numenor and the Wargs were somewhat estranged. Indeed, the Faithful of Numenor were not originally those loyal to the Valar, but those loyal to the Wargs as well. It wasn't until later, when the Numenoreans and the Valar fell out that the Faithful became allies of both.

The Wargs, in fact, were all but ready to intervene and squash Sauron when Ar-Pharazon landed in middle-earth. In fact, the reason the Numenoreans met no evil army was because the orks and them were off fighting the Wargs- unsuccessfully, I might add.

The Wargs, in a spat of spitefullness occassionally seen even among these benificent creatures, sadly allowed Sauron to live- thus allowing him to escape their grasp and flee to Numenor.

More can be said on Second Age history of the Warg-Numenorean relations, but the Awfullabeth is awfully hard to decipher, being written in a mazelike series of Haradric Metaphors. Improperly translated, it appears as a recipe for edible cement (Which, by the way, doesn't turn out as promised. Trust me, I know!).

I'll say more when time allows...

~Aspiring Warg Scholar - Formendacil~

[SamwiseGamgee]

Please, Formendacil, do not underrate yourself. You are no mere aspirer to Warg knowlege, but an esteemed purveyor thereof. Once again I am intrigued, fascinated and yet unsuprised by your revalations. As I learn more and more about Wargs and their great ways I become more and more convinced that almost everything ever done or said by anyone is anti-Warg propoganda. Some feel I have become paranoid and dellusional in my outlook. To them I say: BOO! :eek:

[Formendacil]

Please, Formendacil, do not underrate yourself. You are no mere aspirer to Warg knowlege, but an esteemed purveyor thereof.

But can anyone truly claim anything more than aspirations where Wargs are concerned? These marvellous, mysterious, magnificent creatures transcent human understanding. I may consider myself an accomplished scholar in their historical relations with Man, but can I truly claim to fathom their inner being?

[SamwiseGamgee]

A fair point, my esteemed peer. Even the greatest of Warg scholars can never truly grasp how deep, wide and high the glory of the Warg is.
If all the sky were parchment, and the oceans filled with ink,
if every blade of grass a quill, and every man a scribe,
yet still though each had one thousand years the sky could not contain,
the deeds of Wargs and all the joy one gains from knowing them.
By the Unknown Poet

[Kath]

I have now (finally) read through this fascinating thread from beginning to end and feel I must post my admiration for those who have taken such time and effort to search through the history of both worlds to find the truth behind wargs. I am also incredibly jealous of those such as Fingolfin who have had the (possibly somewhat mixed) belssing of meeting such amazing creatures.

I had always felt a little off about PJ's interpretation of the wargs but I never realised quite how wrong he had got it! Although as I recall from a couple of pages ago, Neurion did find some evidence for their predilection for jumping off precipices :p .

Now whilst reading this thread my sister was hanging over my shoulder demanding an explanation for my interminably long time on the computer. When I told her of what I was reading she said, and I quote, "What, those hyena things in the movie?" I then realised quite how into this I had become as I proceeded to tell her of the history of the wargs and their shameful treatment by the biased writers of history (and berated her for using the word movie when she is, in fact, English). Needless to say by the end of my diatribe she was cowering in a corner professing her love of wargs and all they entail.

I will keep a keen eye out for wargs from now on. I am going to Spain in the summer and I believe Eomer that you said this was quite a hotspot for warg knowledge so if I find any I will of course inform you.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Welcome Kath and thank you to everyone for breathing new life into the Appreciation Thread. :)

Your powers of persuasion are mighty Kath (and bonus points for that 'movie' deal). Indeed, Spain is a country where Wargs are held in the highest esteem. Not by all, of course, but if a man ever tried to organize an anti-Warg march in Spain then he would likely be ripped apart by frenzied Warg enthusiasts. Whereas in Britain such marches are held almost weekly. Fact.

This also explains the great love and admiration felt for Wargs in South America. In fact, it is probably only in Hispanic countries, much of Africa and a hefty section of Asia where Wargs are truly loved. People differ from place to place, obviously.

Formendacil, that was inspiring stuff you presented and I hope to comment on it before too long. Thanks!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I found this tale in one of the manuscripts woven by Vairë in the Halls of Mandos.

Yondaimë and the Kyuubi

Contrary to popular belief, the winged Dragons were not the greatest of Morgoth's monsters. The title rightfully belongs to the Kyuubi, a powerful Ainu--originally a Maia of Oromë--in the form of a nine-tailed Warg. Yet the Kyuubi did not issue from the pits of Angband, for he saw the victory of the Host of Valinor. As Eönwë and his warriors descended into the Halls of Morgoth, he fled to the east of East, near the ancient region of Hildórien.

In that region was a little village named Konoha, where dwelt the remnant of the Edain who refused the summons of Morgoth. They saw the onslaught of the giant Warg, and they were seized with fear. But their leader, Yondaimë, said to them, "Fear not, for he shall not ravage your home while I yet live." So he went on to face the Kyuubi in the forest surrounding Konoha, and their dreadful battle began.

The Warg mocked the Man, saying, "Foolish one, weakest of Men, and they least of all that speak, will you now dare to battle the great Kyuubi?"

Yondaimë said naught in return, but summoned the giant frog Gama Bunta, who dwelt in the deeps of Cuiviénen. Then, riding upon his steed, he charged upon the Kyuubi, yet the Warg leaped away, and with one of his tail he swept the legs of Gama Bunta from under him. The frog of Ulmo fell to the ground, and Yondaimë's body was broken beneath him. Knowing that his death was near, Yondaimë prayed to Eru, "Might I still the mighty beast that dares to destroy our estel. Eru give me strength!"

And Eru, from beyond Arda, hearkened to his prayer, and he sent Mandos to Yondaimë. "The spirit of the Kyuubi you may send to my halls," he said, "yet only if you take him there. Then you must depart the world, for none of the mortals who see my halls return ever to the mortal lands, save Beren, who had a fate apart."

Yondaimë consented, and, departing his body, he wrested the spirit of the Kyuubi from his body, and brought him to the Halls of Mandos, where none can escape, neither Ainu, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Upon the completion of his task, he left Arda, and was never seen again, noblest of mortal Men.

Here are the pictures of some of the tapestries that depict the dread battle:
Kyuubi (http://www.naruto-kun.com/gallery/screenshots/Episode%2026-27/(naruto-kun.com)-Eps_026-027-135.jpg)
Gama Bunta (http://www.naruto-kun.com/gallery/screenshots/Episode%2026-27/(naruto-kun.com)-Eps_026-027-134.jpg)

[High King Fingolfin]

Kyuubi has rather large ears for a Warg. It imust be from the corruption of Morgoth.

Welcome spawn, Kitanna, and Kath. And welcome back Formendacil and Nilpaurion. I am glad we are attracting so many new people, and old ones are coming back. It must be the pull that the mighty Wargs exert on us all.

Alas I feel my sister Oromin will not be coming back She only came to correct me.

We have been having severe weather lately. Perhaps the Wargs are feeling wrathful.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Interesting, Fingolfin, that you should mention the Wargs having an influence on the weather. For longer than your young mind can ever begin to imagine the debate has raged on about whether or not Wargs can influence weather systems and perhaps even exert their wrath upon others with bad weather. There have been many esteemed subscribers to this theory. Dr. Alain Dupoincarre, that most emminent French Warg expert, for one, as well as Lance Corporal Billiam Fitzgennings, the British officer who devoted his later life to the study of Indian Wargs.

I, however, have never held to this theory. As mighty and all-transcending as Wargs are, I have never come across anything which would lead me to believe they have power over the weather. Furthermore, in knowing of the existence of that most infamous of creatures, the Demon of Weather, I know that little metreological activity occurs without his express permission, which he is loathe to give.

But, pray tell, fellow Warg-lovers, what are your views?

[Formendacil]

It seems unlikely to me that any creature such a Warg would CONTROL the weather, persay, when they are built to withstand anything it may throw at them. Consider the wonderous insulation and heating factor of a Warg's fur, and the marvellous self-cooling abilities of his reflective sheen and cardiovacular system. T'would seem to me that any creature such a Warg, far from controlling the weather, would sit through whatever it may give, to the grievance of its enemies. Are not Wargs, after all, found in all climates, from mountain to desert to prairie? Although they DO seem to favour some climates more than others, but that is a cultural matter, methinks.

[SamwiseGamgee]

I concur wholeheartedly,Formendacil. A Warg is, after all, such a great, noble, wondrous and beautiful beast that something such as the weather is to him fickle and unimportant. One would do well to remember the words of David Hume:

"Logic is to a Warg what a bubble is to you or I. It is an imaginary thing, there one moment yet gone the next. A Warg could reach out to catch this bubble, but it would only burst. And so he ignores it, allowing it to plot its own haphazard course and continue ever onward to its own unwitting doom" ~ David Hume in Wargs: a considered commentary thereon

I feel it perfectly reasonable to extend Hume's excellent reasoning to the realm of weather, and to conclude that, as my learned friend has said, that a Warg would rather than lack the capacity to control the weather simply lack the interest.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Of course, any being who set out to wrest control of weather would rightly be considered evil. Not unlike the Numenoreans challenging the Valar. Some things are just not meant to be.

But we have made mention of Sorcerer Wargs in The Thread before. The conjuring of a storm is most certainly not an unusual occurence in the history of Middle-earth. Morgoth did it all the time. And Wargs have been reported to meddle in this evil. Fallen Wargs, of course. True Wargs know that they have a place under Eru (or so is commonly believed).

A feisty tale Nilpaurion, of the stuff of ancient legends.

Formendacil, the truth behind Numenor is startling. Long have we known that the Elves do not love Wargs, but to deceive them (and indeed the Valar) in fixing it so that Men could have the island is a treachery the magnitude of which is rarely seen in Arda. Men - such unworthy children. The idea that they could coast through the First Age so and then be rewarded thusly, why it makes my blood boil. Morgoth must have been laughing his head off on his dark throne.

[Formendacil]

Formendacil, the truth behind Numenor is startling. Long have we known that the Elves do not love Wargs, but to deceive them (and indeed the Valar) in fixing it so that Men could have the island is a treachery the magnitude of which is rarely seen in Arda. Men - such unworthy children. The idea that they could coast through the First Age so and then be rewarded thusly, why it makes my blood boil. Morgoth must have been laughing his head off on his dark throne.

It seems that in fact there WERE a few Wargs who made it to Numenor before the Edain (being better sailors, in a pinch). These lived a secretive and closeted life in the west, about Andunie, where they were safeguarded by the Faithful. Unlike the Elves, there have always been some Men, the original founders of the Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Society one might say, who have always sided with these great creatures. Indeed, the survival of the Faithful in the late years of Numenor, when Sauron was running amok, was due in large part to the Numenoreans Wargs.

There is more to say, but I am translating from a copy of a copy of a copy of early Gondorian history, which was itself translated each time it was copied, finally ending up in the base Black Speech (Nurnen dialect- which is heavily influenced by the speech of Khand), from around 2103 T.A. Devilish stuff.

[High King Fingolfin]

Perhaps then there is more than one group of Wargs in my area? One being the ones I know of, and one being of the sorcerous type. I must investigate this possibility.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Two groups of Wargs in close locality to you? My goodness, I can only dream of being in such a wonderful situation! Perhaps I shall...mmmm, Wargs! :D

My fiancee just asked me what a Warg is. I feel I have failed you all in not telling her enough. Perhaps the only way I can rectify this is by naming my firstborn child Wargy. What a wonderful idea!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Naming your child Wargy? Would that not be a source of hardship for her/him? Wargs, after all, have suffered so much discrimination that, had anyone less been subject to the same treatment, they would have gone mad and ended the world in a flurry of triple-ripple peach ice cream.

Of, course, the name "Warg" alone confers great strength of mind and spirit to anyone who deserves such a title. Only a few of the Eruchín in history have been given it. Yondaimë, I believe, was one, and so did Lúthien, Finrod (my dad), Huor, Tuor, Idril, and Aragorn. Of those I have named, only Tuor, Idril and Aragorn did not receive that title posthumuosly.

I just hope that your child would bear the name with dignity. Then despite all the abuse she or he might receive from a world shorn of respect for the wonderful Wargs, she or he will rise above it, as the Wargs have ever done.

[Kath]

Also, could the mere name have some kind of effect on the child? The sheer power of the Warg coming through this link could cause the child some difficulty in life.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Well made points, my comrades. Tis an interesting point you make, Kath, that the very name may in some way distort and pervert my child. I assure you all, though, my children will not be as the other cretins of this earth who view Wargs with disdain and revulsion. My children will see Wargs as the wondrous and great creatures they truly are, and shall be the better for it, I assure you.

My children being bullied is linked into this, Nilpaurion. After all, if you were named 'Nelson' after Mr. Mandella in apartheid S.Africa, that may be a source of ridicule and perhaps worse, but it would be the classic situation of words never hurting.

My son shall, fellow Warg lovers, be a great and honourable man- his visage shall be that of the most noble line of Gondor and his heart shall be likened to that of the Dunedain. Let me tell you, if any man should be named Wargy, it shall be my son! ;)

[High King Fingolfin]

Indeed I have searched for this new gorup of Wargs in my area. Evidence includes mysterious dissapearances in my area, something the benevolent Winged Wargs would not do. Unfortunately I have not been able to track down the Sorcerous Wargs as yet. They might be in hiding from the winged Wargs.

Samwise, a child with a name such as Wargy would be both blessed and cursed. Blessed, because the name of the Warg in itself is a great and powerful thing, conferring great honor and prestige upon those who bear it. Cursed because of the vile ridicule and vicious slander that such a name would bring.

Also, some of you may know that Encaitare has made Warg & Warg Rider Appreciation Thread Live Journal icons, by request of my sister Oromin. Many of them feature quotes from you Samwise. They can be found here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/lady_wormtongue/9130.html#cutid1).

[SamwiseGamgee]

Those are great! I have no idea what they actually do, but I feel honoured and blessed that I have been quoted. Man, Wargs can make you so happy, can't they! :D

[Orominuialwen]

They're like avatars, but are used for blogs. I just made Fingolfin a warg avatar, which will be up as soon as I upload it. I hope you like it!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Indeed, Fingolfin's new avatar is most agreeable. Get the boot in those horrid, horrid movie 'Wargs' (and I use the term advisedly) at any opportunity, that's what I say.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Absolutely wonderful avatar. You two must be very proud of yourselves. :D

And I had noted with much confusion that the Appreciation Thread was spreading through the internet with the beauty of pure osmosis. We must keep tabs on these developments.

[High King Fingolfin]

Indeed we are! To extol the glory of the Wargs through signature and avatar is a blessed thing indeed! The movie 'Wargs' are foul things, totally unfit to the great and esteemed title of Warg!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

We could cease to apply the most high name of "Wargs" to the movie . . . lemmingstuff.

I vote ++yes.

Of course, we should find a new name for them. Any suggestions?

[High King Fingolfin]

I most definitely agree! ++yes

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

A fine idea! I had previously used 'Wargs' instead of Wargs, but that is nowhere near strong enough.

They are pretty much just invented monsters. How about: Jackson's lupines?

[Kitanna]

They are pretty much just invented monsters. How about: Jackson's lupines?

Abomination comes to my mind when trying to describe those things.

[Formendacil]

What we need is something short and easy to remember, and preferably somewhat derogatory. Acronyms do well...

How about SLOP: Silly Lemmings Of Prey.

Something along those lines...

Plural, of course, would be SLOPs.

[High King Fingolfin]

We could always just call them hyena-lemmings - they look like hyenas and act like lemmings.

[Formendacil]

We could always just call them hyena-lemmings - they look like hyenas and act like lemings.

Maybe a mixture... Hemmings or Lyenas.

I like Lyenas. That "lie" in there is quite appropriate, in light of their lying as to their real race.

[High King Fingolfin]

Lyenas is the perfect name Formendacil! It encompasses all aspects of those foul things.

Now let us cease with the discussion of those foul Lyenas and return to the glory of the Warg!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Lyenas, defo! What joy it brings me to leave the thread for mere hours and return to find an almost overwhelming number of replies! This thread is so great! :D

[High King Fingolfin]

Indeed this thread is great! So great we cannot even comprehend its greatness. This is barely anything however, compared to the greatness, glory and power of the Warg!

[CaptainofDespair]

Hmm...

Why not simply refer to them (the movie Wargs) as Wargless? This would apply better, as they are not truly Wargs, nor do they live up to the majesty of one. They do not have 'The Warg', and are thus mockeries, such as Orcs were made to be of Elves. ;)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

That is true, CaptainofDespair: they are mockeries.

It makes me wonder just how deeply Peter Jackson's hatred of Wargs runs. Or was it Jackson's fault? For too long have we ignored these cinematic abominations! We must investigate the issue and discover who is responsible for this unholy catastrophe.

[Kath]

But first Eomer I would suggest going to the cast members of LotR and showing them this thread, as when I was listening to the cast commentary today I found that they all seem to think those film mockeries were an acceptable version of a warg! Now really if you are going to be in a film that is based on a book you could at least read it and get the history of the story and it's characters straight! It's just as bad as the assumption that the Fell Beast is in fact a Nazgul!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Totally, Kath! I have just had a look through TTT EE and, sure enough, during the Lyena scene there are nothing but sicophantic little whines of praise for our nemesis here at 'The Thread', Peter 'I'm-a-big-loser-and-will-surely-get-my-comuppance-when-I'm-brutally-ripped-to-pieces-by-a-Warg' Jackson. It's vomit inducing. :mad:

[Formendacil]

But first Eomer I would suggest going to the cast members of LotR and showing them this thread, as when I was listening to the cast commentary today I found that they all seem to think those film mockeries were an acceptable version of a warg! Now really if you are going to be in a film that is based on a book you could at least read it and get the history of the story and it's characters straight! It's just as bad as the assumption that the Fell Beast is in fact a Nazgul!

Quite shocking, indeed, how terribly Jackson has perverted the minds of others. So many have been misled by his apocalyptic vision. And not just crazy fangirls watching the movies, but the members of the cast themselves. In another life, Ian, Viggo, Elijah, Miranda, etc, etc, might all have been great defenders of the Warg legacy- perhaps even members of this great society. But because of Jackson's corruption, they shall never know this great beauty.

One must wonder: what evil being was it that first drew Jackson to the dark side? Although my specialty is first and second age Warg-eology, I might try and dig through the annals of more recent Warg-haters, and try to determine from whence came the New Zealander's hatred of these great beasts.

[High King Fingolfin]

Indeed, I have researched this very subject. I have found that the hatred stems from an early encounter by colonists with several savage Wargs. This has evolved over the years into a total hatred of Wargs by the entire population. A very sad misunderstanding indeed.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

The world, as said by a few people enlightened enough to know the truth, is Varsur's Ring (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=379584&postcount=267). Truly, Varsur, the great dark Warg, must have exerted his influence much on this PJ character, enabling the seeds of Warg-corruption to grow in his uneducated mind.

Alas, if we only have enlightened him soon enough . . . who knows what praise the world will give to the Wargs? Who knows what peace shall wrap a world in awe of the majesty of Wargs?

But it is not fated to be so, for Varsur still lives. :(

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Terrifying.

Here's another thing which annoys me: How come Wargs are only deemed to be the carriers of Orcs? Did the film-makers ever read The Hobbit? Wargs are, as we all know, far mightier than Orcs. It is true that, when Wargs and Orcs make alliances, the Wargs will carry the Orcs to battle for the purposes of haste. But Wargs are not horses. And the comparison is a deep insult.

Could horses move the very lands and the oceans? Could horses master every tongue in Arda? Could horses defeat a team of Elves on University Challenge? I think not.

Wargs are not pawns to the Orc (they are not even pawns to the Duck, Samwise). Yet that is how they have been presented.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

It makes me wonder just how deeply Peter Jackson's hatred of Wargs runs. Or was it Jackson's fault? For too long have we ignored these cinematic abominations! We must investigate the issue and discover who is responsible for this unholy catastrophe.Indeed. And I think I've found some facts that prove that it is Mr. Jackson who was in charge of the attempt to profane the Wargs. If you're a sensitive person you probably should not read the following evidence.

The design galleries of the Two Towers reveal that Ben Wootten and Warren Mahy are responsible for the looks of the Lyenas. I was abhorred to listen their comments of their sketches. Mr. Wootten talked about one image where two Lyenas are chasing an intimidated horse. "How terrified the horses would be fighting
dogs", he said! This isn't the only time he talks about Wargs as dogs.

But it's really Mr. Mahy's work we see on screen. However, he shifts the blame to Mr. Jackson telling that he wanted to have rather a dog than a wolf. He would also have liked to see features of a reptile in his Lyenas. And why is this Mr. Jackson's fault? Because by approving the sketches he made himself guilty of spreading this unbelievable heresy of Wargs.

This kind of madness seems too horrible to be derived from a human being. It must be as Nilp said. Mighty is the influence of Varsur!

[CaptainofDespair]

Terrifying.

Here's another thing which annoys me: How come Wargs are only deemed to be the carriers of Orcs? Did the film-makers ever read The Hobbit? Wargs are, as we all know, far mightier than Orcs. It is true that, when Wargs and Orcs make alliances, the Wargs will carry the Orcs to battle for the purposes of haste. But Wargs are not horses. And the comparison is a deep insult.

Could horses move the very lands and the oceans? Could horses master every tongue in Arda? Could horses defeat a team of Elves on University Challenge? I think not.

Wargs are not pawns to the Orc (they are not even pawns to the Duck, Samwise). Yet that is how they have been presented.

Well, we both know Orcs are down-right dirty liars. In my opinion, it is most likely that the orcs allowed this lie to penetrate deep into everything Warg, which has now tainted the minds of so many with the deception that Wargs are inferior. The only way to cleanse this is through many, many seminars on "Wargs: The Glorious Truth". :D

[Bêthberry]

The only way to cleanse this is through many, many seminars on "Wargs: The Glorious Truth". :D

Is is appropriate to suggest that such edification begin with the creation of a wargish language so that then we may see wargs face to face. Just consider all the expressions of foul Speech which darken our current glasses.

First, the frightfully unfair designation of a warg as a liar. "Never cry warg" they say. Well, to them I say, "Your pants are on fire."

And then there is that noxious saying, "A warg in sheep's clothing." I tell you, what need would a warg have of sheepskin given his own glorious coat?

And confusing wargs with pigs! Since when is it correct to tell children to refrain from 'warging it down'?

I wonder if it might be well to begin with a seminar on metawargs and similorcs. Until people understand the true applicability of wargs, we will face such outrageous allegories as these expressions contain. Why, it is a veritable Tower of Babelorc that must be overcome so that people stop discriminating so unfairly against the wargs of Babylon. Yea, we all await the great wargsuntide.

I humbly suggest you create a reading list for such a series of seminars, beginning with a book by one Fairhe Mowarg, Never Cry Warg (http://www.longitudebooks.com/find/p/3272/mcms.html) wherein he learned one summer to live among the wargs and endeavoured to dispel many wrongful assumptions.

[SamwiseGamgee]

You're wrong, Eomer, we're all pawns to the duck.

These seminars do certainly sound like a beneficial way to spend time. I think we need some discussion of Warg literature, also. Too often we concentrate on what we mere mortals have said about Wargs, when we would surely be better learning from the very mouths and pens of our heroes.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

We certainly are Samwise but the Wargs are not. No duck is that powerful. And there is a sentence which could incur great wrath. :D

As for teachings by Wargs, we have our ancestors to thank for the mess we find ourselves in. Long ago the Wargs gave Men gifts the likes of which we have ne'er before or after seen, yet we mocked them and spat on them, foolishly thinking that we were superior. Well, we have paid dearly. I was reading about scientists who were claiming that the human race does not get more intelligent, that there are and will always be people of low intelligence among us. One Chilean Warg enthusiast was murdered the week before the study's results were revealed. Now, it seems clear to me that this is a warning to those who would dare to expose the cover-up, that the reason for the poorness of Men is not to do with genetics, but rather to do with the scorn directed toward the grace of the Wargs.

For so Eru had proclaimed: "Let all ye Men know that the Wargs shall be thy guide." (Book of Lost Tails, p46.)

[Formendacil]

While recently delving through some obscure First Age manuscripts, I came across the mention of a "were-Warg". What with all the popularity of the Werewolf games of late, I decided to do more research on this subject, and present my findings here.

"Werewolves" are, in fact, a phenomenon which is related to the great Wargs of yore. The modern perception of them as rabid biters is a flaw of their true purpose.

There are, in fact, not werewolves in real life. No, this popular image is a distortion and a mixing of WereWargs and werelyenas.

The werelyenas more greatly resemble werewolves of the two. Werelyenas are people who have been bitten by another werelyena (usually rabid), thus making them a werelyena. To be a werelyena is the greatest misfortune that may befall a man (or Elf!) without killing him, for once a month he is forced to transform into the most hideous of nature's beasts.

A WereWarg, on the other hand, is a very different phenomenom. A WereWarg is a Man, Elf, Hobbit, or Dwarf who has been selected by the Wargs for a very rare honour. A WereWarg is a Man (etc) who has been given the power by the Wargs to become one of them at times.

There are several great figures of history that appear to have been WereWargs. Among these are Finrod Felagund- who as a result of his Warg-given translation abilities was able to befriend Men. Another famous WereWarg was Elendil son of Amandil. It was clearly the fact that he was a WereWarg that saved him from Sauron whilst in Numenor, and helped him to defeat Sauron and overthrow him. Alas that Isildur was not a WereWarg as well...

The third known WereWarg lived in the late Third Age, and was, in fact, Samwise Gamgee- who resisted the temptation of the Ring of his own will, and stoutly survived all the dangers of the road, while supporting the Ringbearer.

Sadly, there are also some known cases of werelyenas. Eol the Dark Elf was bitten as a child, and his evil disposition and ill effect on his son were clearly derived from this. Also a known werelyena was Khamul the Easterling- who accepted his Ring of Power in hopes of escaping his curse. The Ring was unsuccessful of course, and all that happened was that at times Sauron had a Black Lyena instead of a Black Rider.

Other cases are referred to in the text, but not given by name. Possibly, while I am in Europe, I shall have the opportunity to research some of their texts and learn more- possibly about WereWargs, or maybe another facet of Warglore.

~Warg Scholar -

Formendacil~

[SamwiseGamgee]

Well I think we can all aspire to something now: the glory of a WereWarg! :D

[SamwiseGamgee]

Over a most enjoyable lunch today I was discussing with a very close friend Wargs. What a great way to sypend time, eh. But there's more (though I should add this post could end at the first full stop and be more than worthwhile) to this story. We stumbled upon the subject of pronunciation of that greatest of words: Warg. My friend and I both agreed that our pronunciation was as it is written, as in lard. However, my friend's mum and my fiancee both choose to pronounce the word 'worg'. My question, as you may have anticipated, is how you guys pronounce the great word? Pray tell.

[Orominuialwen]

My brother and I pronounce it as you do, rather like "lard" and with a hard G at the end.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I concur. But can you think of any other words beginning in 'War...' and being pronounced in such a way? It's war or warm or warble. But Warg seems to be one of a kind.

[SamwiseGamgee]

In Monty Python yhe Hungarian guy said 'I want you' in the same way one would pronounce Warg. Does that count? :( Meh, forget it! Even I'll admit that's pretty shakey ground.

Oh, and by the way guys, let's hear it for the friend I had lunch with- for sitting there and talking Wargs. A big cheer for Ciro Orlando, eh? :D

[Valesse]

Just a side note before I actually say anything which might make a lick of sense pretaining to the current discussion: When I first came to this forum I read the thread title as "The Warg and Warg Rider Application Thread" and thought "YES!!" vehemently. The End.

It really depends on how you break up the word in your mind, I think. To some people it could be W-arg (who tend to pronounce it closer to the word "rag" for some reason... oddly enough thats me.) and to others War-g ("worg")... then theres the Wa-rg qroup which... Well I don't claim to know how that would even sound .. Wah-er-gh? or Wah-er-gee? : |

[SamwiseGamgee]

Welcome, Valesse, to this, the Greatest Thread of All Time! I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who once said:Wargs are great, guys. In fact, so great that I can think of nothing better to discuss!
Well there you have it, eh? So, Wah-ar-gee? That sounds suspisciously like Wargy- and my goodness, that's a whole different story!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

A welcome to all who have joined the Thread recently: that's CaptainofDespair, Bethberry and Valesse. :)

What we should really be asking ourselves is this: What do the Wargs call themselves? The Hobbit suggests that the Wargs had their own wicked tongue indecipherable to Bilbo Baggins. What I want to know is whether this was truly the Warg's language or whether it was some sort of hideous local dialect. The wicked Wargs' 'Ned tongue' to the True Wargs' perfect English, if you see what I'm saying.

Maybe the Wargs could not care less about our pronounciation of the word 'Warg'. Thoughts?

By the way, 11th page? I think we all deserve hearty congratulations for the continued success of The Appreciation Thread. :D A toast!

[Valesse]

The Hobbit suggests that the Wargs had their own wicked tongue indecipherable to Bilbo Baggins...The wicked Wargs' 'Ned tongue' to the True Wargs' perfect English

...Maybe the Wargs could not care less about our pronounciation of the word 'Warg'. Thoughts?

Whoa! Revolutionary thought there. It could be very possible that Wargs have several different languages depending on what situations they are in or the area. Unfortunately I haven't had much exposure to wargs :confused:

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

A hearty congratulations to all!

Cousin Eomer, from what I recall the Wargs use the tongue of the people they are with, as they are quick to learn languages and are loath to teach their own secret tongue to other races.

Those who have earned the trust of the Wargs and have mastered the tongue were the same people who have earned the title of "Warg" (or "Werewarg"), and have become the wisest and fairest of the Children of Ilúvatar during their time. Perhaps, the tongue of the Wargs came from the very speech of the Allfather himself, conferring his wisdom on those who have persevered to learn it. Surely, the wisdom of the Wargs must have a source no less than the One.

Just a theory.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It is true that Wargs have mastered every tongue in Arda and beyond. Those naïve Dwarves.....

I have heard that it was actually the Wargs who awoke the Ents. The official stance is, of course, that the Elves performed this amazing feat. But bear in mind that the Elves and the Wargs have at times been bitter rivals, and that the Elves also manipulated the Halflings and their account of history. This is where we get The Hobbit et al from.

After all, what is Canonicity?

( :eek: :eek: :eek: )

[SamwiseGamgee]

Oh, Eomer, how very avant-garde and subjective of you! But you do raise a perfectly valid point: how can we lovers of all things Wargish ever truly trust something which many other Downers may call canon? I don't know that we can truly trust it. I definitely remember having given time on this great thread to the argument that The Red Book was in fact a cleverly worked propoganda piece designed cleverly and subtly to subvert Wargs and all their glorious ways. That may not rest comfortably with many, but I feel more and more compelled each and every day to give the argument credit.

One final comment on the 11th page: it is especially cool because on the ME Mirth contents page at has pages '1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10...Last Page'. Our pages are so great that they can no longer be numbered! Cool, huh?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I don't think the Wargs cared for the canon, or for history, for that matter. As Mauan, son of Huan (yes, he was a Warg) once put it:

[Mauan: ]We are not concerned with history, with the past ages of Arda; for to our care was given all the notes and chords of the Music, to keep in order until it has reached the fullness of its measure and our Lord comes to cleanse it.

This is also the first time a Warg has mentioned "our Lord", or, as scholars name it, "The Lord of the Wargs." Many say that this refers Argwë, brother of Varsur, the Viceregent of the Timeless Halls under Eru himself; in which case the "fullness of its measure" refers to that future time when Varsur and Melkor shall forcibly open the Door of Night and enter the World.

What do you think?

[High King Fingolfin]

Nay, the Wargs are concerned only with the vast music of Illuvatar. That is their higher calling, the reason that Wargs are held so wonderful in the first place.

[Kath]

Just a quick off-topic note here. Having been in Spain for the last two weeks I am sad to report that I neither saw nor heard of any Wargs or Warg activity. However, I believe that this may be because I was in a very touristy area, and no self-respecting Warg would put themselves in the way of digital/video cameras and small, squealing children - at least not without attacking some of them. We did go to a few more remote places but again I saw hide nor hair of those magnificent beasts.

I wonder though whether the old history of bull-fighting in Spain might have some connection with the Wargs as there is often mention of a bull that could not be killed and that cut down many of the matadors as they tried to fight it. Anyone know if this could be a valid theory?

[SamwiseGamgee]

Well, Kath, your pain must be considerable. And after Eomer gave such a glowing report from Madrid. Your vitriol must be huge! I give you permission to direct general viciousness at the horsemaster. It will help the healing process, I'm sure.

Oh, aren't Wargs great! :D

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The search for Wargs takes time and skill. Kath here is a relative newcomer to this glorious world. Why, it is said that even Elessar Telcontar, Aragorn II, the greatest tracker of the Third Age, took a good four years to track down the first Warg he ever saw. And those were an intense four years of seeking for naught else.

I myself spent 23 years searching for my first glimpse of a real life Warg. So take courage Kath, and I'm sure that you will be rewarded for your faith.

[Kath]

Thank you for the kind words Samwise and Eomer. It makes me feel a little better and gives me the hope I need to keep searching!

[arcticstorm]

I find it interesting how all over the downs I have seen debates on the nature of Gothmog, lieutenant of Morgul. Now after careful research into the topic, I can guarantee that he was, in fact, a warg. Through this research, I have come across numerous ancient documents describing his rise to power, and his fall from it, It is interesting to note that after his fall from power, he became second in command at Pellanor. He had been in charge of all the armies of Mordor before that time, and it was, in fact, his throwing his stakes in with the losing side of the all-to-common, inter-orc squables that took place in Barad-dur that caused his fall.

Two of the most prominent orc tribes in Mordor were invited to Barad-dur for a banquet of man-flesh and other cullinary delights, when a dispute arose among them. Many of the Nazgul, and even the future mouth of Sauron sided with one side, and gothmog sidede with the other. Needless to say with all the backstabbing that took placei n Sauron's court, they were able to hurt Gothmog's image, and ended up giving his position to the Witch King. But Gothmog still retained a lot of his authority.

In fatc,Sauron himself knew about the intelligence of this warg. and refused to demote him any farther than he had to to keep his other subjsects loyal, but still gave him a lot of authority. It is also a little known fact that PJ knew about this story when he made his movie. If you notice a lyena in the fight for Minis Tirith? This is actually Gothmog, not the pink orc-thing that many normally think is Gothmog. Actually that pink thing only served as Gothmogs mouth peice, much like the MoS did for Sauron.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Well, well, well, articstorm. That certainly is an interesting theory. I have done little research into Gothmog, but I must say I think your post may be the final answer to all the issues of all the scholars. I shall return and post as soon as I know more!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

This makes so much sense. And on first impression, it appears to be yet another case of the Wargs being treated with naught but disdain by the authors of the Red Book.

See the painstaking description of the Nazgûl all throughout the book. Witness the bone-chilling introduction of the Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate. Yet Gothmog is treated as an afterthought. How could this be the case were tradition correct and Gothmog was to be thought of as a Ringwraith or a Black Númenórean? It is still possible that Gothmog was an Orc, but I doubt this greatly. Gothmog was a Warg and once again we have to face this harsh reality: that Wargs are slowly but surely being eliminated from history.

It makes me crumple with despair; and boil with fury.

Great work arcticstorm!

[Formendacil]

This makes so much sense. And on first impression, it appears to be yet another case of the Wargs being treated with naught but disdain by the authors of the Red Book.

See the painstaking description of the Nazgûl all throughout the book. Witness the bone-chilling introduction of the Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate. Yet Gothmog is treated as an afterthought. How could this be the case were tradition correct and Gothmog was to be thought of as a Ringwraith or a Black Númenórean? It is still possible that Gothmog was an Orc, but I doubt this greatly. Gothmog was a Warg and once again we have to face this harsh reality: that Wargs are slowly but surely being eliminated from history.

It makes me crumple with despair; and boil with fury.

Great work arcticstorm!

One has to wonder though...

Are all cases the work of the evil Anti-Warg group?

Could there not be some cases in which the Wargs themselves have suppressed the true history? After all, if Gothmog of Morgul really was a Warg, would the Wargs want this to be known? After all, there are enough people Warg-bashing without adding fuel to the fire. Perhaps the Wargs have themselves worked to hide Gothmog's true story. After all, Wargs are not tame creatures...

[SamwiseGamgee]

That is a possibility, Form. I myself have started a false rumour on a rival thread regarding Gothmog. Why, you may ask? Well, exactly as has been suggested: we are able to understand Wargs here at The Thread, but those Warg-bashers are just waiting to pounce. Pesky scum!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

But such a magnificent captain and fearsome warrior is worthy of recognition, even if he did use his powers for evil. What do the True Wargs think of this?

[Formendacil]

But such a magnificent captain and fearsome warrior is worthy of recognition, even if he did use his powers for evil. What do the True Wargs think of this?

Who can say? Wargs are such mysterious creatures that I felt called upon to put forth another, quite plausible, suggestion concerning this matter, but I am as ignorant of the fantastic goings-on of a Warg's mind as any of us...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

(Many thanks to Ms. Bêthberry for the suggestion.)

We could rewrite parts of the legendarium to tell the true tale, including references to Wargs, and possibly the mysterious Hares.

Or . . . maybe we should drop the Hare part, as this is a thread about Wargs.

[Formendacil]

We could rewrite parts of the legendarium to tell the true tale, including references to Wargs, and possibly the mysterious Hares.

Or . . . maybe we should drop the Hare part, as this is a thread about Wargs.

Hares?

Surely thou jest, Milord Felagund! What part in such a great tale have creatures such as hares? For all that Rivendell may have been overrun with madly named, long eared beasts of the hare-y persuasion, their part in the destruction of the One Ring and the overthrow of Sauron can surely merit no more a mention in the Red Book, corrected or otherwise, than that of the fox in "Three is Company". Less mention, perhaps, for the fox is a discerning creature curious about the goings on of the world around him, whereas Elmerf and all of his ilk are completely wrapped up in their own, ridiculous, politics and intrigues.

Wargs, on the other hand, although maligned and mistreated by historians, played great parts in the War, as befits the noblest of Eru's creatures. Those some turned traitor it can never be said that their part in the goings on of those times were anything but grand and far-reaching. The hares, by dint of their entire species, could no more have changed the course of the war by hopping in unison against the armies of Mordor- and it is demonstable that they did not- whereas a single Warg, even one turned to evil (if Gothmog be one), by the very reason of his presence on the battlefield, merited a mention in the great history, even though that history be written by those of most anti-Warg persuasions.

Even those who hate the Wargs, who hide their true history, who present the vile Lyenas as true Wargs, who have done their best to either erase the Warg from history or to malign their acts, will admit that a Warg is, if naught else, a great and dangerous creature. But even the most devoted of hare-fans, even the most maniacally deranged of the chroniclers of Elmerf, even the most Bambi-loving nature hugger cannot say any more about Elmerf's role in the War of the Ring than that he was Legolas' rabbit.

I rest my case. There is no need for a society devoted to the Wargs to even contemplate a look into the "histories" that are the self-centred journals of Elmerf and his sorry ilk.

~Wargfully yours,

Warg Scholar - Michael A. Joosten~

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Hey, don't get worked up, Form! You just came back! (Welcome back, vy ze vay. :D )

It was just a suggestion, for, despite the truth of your statement, Hares had a part in the History of Middle-earth. The Council of Elrond, for example, was brought about by some concubine of Elmerf.

I mean, if we drop the Hare references to the Legendarium, then we are no worse than those who continuously defame the Wargs.

Your Harey Advocate of the Correct and Complete History of Arda,
Louis Ortal.

[Formendacil]

Hey, don't get worked up, Form! You just came back! (Welcome back, vy ze vay. :D )

It was just a suggestion, for, despite the truth of your statement, Hares had a part in the History of Middle-earth. The Council of Elrond, for example, was brought about by some concubine of Elmerf.

I mean, if we drop the Hare references to the Legendarium, then we are no worse than those who continuously defame the Wargs.

Your Harey Advocate of the Correct and Complete History of Arda,
Louis Ortal.

Thank you for the welcome, it is good to be back among those enlightened enough to speak of Wargs.

But I must disagree with your interpretation that Elmerf's concubine convened the Council of Elrond. That is simply one interpretation of the facts, and a tenuous one, at that. One might as well accept the suggestion of the Red Book's author, that it practically happened by coincidence. Or one could look at the event and see in it, perhaps, the paws of a Warg.

Although Elrond is renowned for his anti-Warg stance, and although there are no documents proving any Warg connections to the Council named after him, the fact remains that the Council was a most blessed occurrence for the peoples of Middle-Earth, and a turning point in the quest to destroy the Ring. And although the gathering of all those delegates at one time appears to be mere coincidence, one can perhaps see the paw of a Warg at work.

Consider Boromir and Faramir's vision. It is never shown from whence it came. But who, other than the Wargs, had the power to project such a vision? Only the Valar, and they had a strict hands-off policy with regards to Middle-Earth. What about the arrival of the Dwarves? We are told of some vague worries of the Dwarf kingdom, but why should they go to Elrond with their questions? Perhaps the Dwarves, who have always had better relationships with Wargs than the Elves have, had the suggestion placed in their ear? As for Legolas and the other Elves? Well, who do you think could have managed to get them all to Rivendell at the same time, other than those most cunning of beasts?

In any event, although I share your quest for a "Correct and Complete History of Arda", though I dispute with you on some of the details, I must admit that a truly "complete" work is impossible, although we may strive for "correct". To be complete, a work must, of its nature, include EVERYTHING. And no one written work, or even many, can encompass EVERYTHING. For that reason, we are not given Frodo's Famous Mushroom Soup recipe in the Red Book, delicious though it was, it was not relevant. In the same way, while Elmerf and his brood were certainly connected to the Council and its proceedings, they were not RELEVANT. In this matter, at least, I agree with the biased, anti-Warg author of the Red Book: there was no reason to include the hares.

~Warg Scholar-

Michael A. Joosten~

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

My comrades! it is high time for another tale of Wargs; and verily, I now have a series to share with you.

Some of you may remember an earlier tale I told in which the so-called Warg Riders of the Third Age featured; causing bloodshed and unhappiness to the Free Peoples; and enslaving Wargs.

It is time that you found out what became of Grifdokh, Marshmak, Bellizor, Maldakar, Uchnogh and Sarcroch: the infamous 'Warg Riders'. There are some grisly ends in this collection.

Look for me – soon!

[The Perky Ent]

You have my word, Wraith! Wether by my life or death, I shall follow you to the ends of the earth. You have my warg!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Well, Eomer. I can hardly contain myself. Truly I shall wait with immense anticipation for thy great and mighty story!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Grifdokh, Marshmak and Bellizor had long since left the other Warg Riders. Rhûn Orcs, however brilliant, were never likely to be fully accepted by other Orcs. But Grifdokh had recently desired a truce. He recalled the glory of the full complement of Warg Riders and longed to live that life once more. This was in the Fourth Age, when the Return of the King had ceased to be a matter of interest to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth.

Grifdokh had a few Wargs still under his command, but the majority of the Wargs he had once known had stayed with Sarcroch, the most powerful of the Warg Riders. So he sent out only two Wargs to bring tidings to Sarcroch, whom Grifdokh believed to be now far in the North.

Around six months later, one of the Wargs returned, and a terror was upon that miserable beast. He would speak neither to the other Wargs or Grifdokh, and the head Orc was furious. "So!" he cried, "Sarcroch chooses to curse a Warg of Grifdokh, does he? Well, let him know that I will not cower before him as a slave any longer; I will go to the North and I will challenge this sorceror!" Grifdokh had always resented Sarcroch's arrogance.

So north he went. He brought his allies Marshmak and Bellizor, and a great host of Orcs. Following them came the Wargs, meek and miserable; trapped in this bitter life by the hateful Orcs.

When he came to the outskirts of Forodwaith, Grifdokh halted. He saw before him a great host of Wargs. "So Sarcroch plans to sacrifice his Wargs first, does he?" said he. "Well, I shall not waste my Wargs in a pitiful fight. We will slaughter the Wargs ourselves. With me, my Orcs!"

And with that, Grifdokh and his comrades ran toward the great host with confidence. The three former Warg Riders had seen these Wargs close-up a long time before, and they did not fear them at all.

But suddenly Grifdokh stopped. For he had keen eyes and saw now that he had been outfoxed.....by someone. The Wargs that he was looking at could now be seen more clearly. And there was no doubting now that these Wargs, now moving steadily toward the Orcs, were Great Wargs.

"What is this..." Grifdokh faltered. He realised that he was about to engage in battle with a mighty army of Great and True Wargs, against which there can be no victor.

And verily, the wrath and fury of the Wargs was great, and they tore through the ranks of the Orcs with gusto, and the weak enslaved Wargs were wakened from their oppression and were set free, and howled with delight. The blood of the Orcs ran through the valley of Forodwaith like a river.

But who were these Wargs? That is what Grifdokh wondered as he witnessed Marshmak's limbs being ripped off his torso, and Bellizor's head flying through the air. It was what he wondered as he saw his last sight: the huge jaws of a Warg bearing down on his face.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It was dancing spawn of ungoliant who got me thinking again about the relation between Wargs and dancing in Middle-earth.

The Elves claimed to have brought the art of dancing to Middle-earth from the Blessed Realm, from whence they had learned much, of course, from the Ainur. This, while a controversial claim in itself, I will let pass for now. What is truly worthy of debate is the vast differences between Elvish and Wargish dancing.

Above all else, the dance of the Elves was slow. It was designed to complement, for example, poetry; and above all else it attempted to attain great beauty. It was timeless and appropriate in pretty much all walks of Elvish life.

Wargish dancing was very different. It had a vigour and energy drastically removed from the ways of the Elves. Such fire and passion was the trademark of the Warg; and while it was truly not appropriate for every occasion, Wargish dancing as a celebration of life was unmatched.

So what did they think of each other? The friendships and wars between the Elves and the Wargs have been well-documented on this Thread, but the bitterness between the two races over the application of dance was highly important. You see, the Elves (for the most part) despised Wargish dancing; they considered it depraved and 'low'; they did not see it as true dance, rather as a debauched social movement. Not all Elves agreed though. It is said that Lúthien Tinúviel herself was a not-so-secret fan of Wargish dance, and that her father was deeply ashamed of her for this very reason. She was always being locked in that Tree-house for bad behaviour. Why do you think Beren was so intoxicated by her dancing? Because it wasn't your regular Elvish stuff. It was infused with the lust of the Wargs.

Wargs for their part were pleased by Elvish dance at times. Certainly at Warg funerals Elvish dancing was favoured for the sombre occasion.

Any thoughts? Next time I'll offer a little-heeded example of the great influence of Wargish dancing in one of the cosier settings of the Third Age.

[Formendacil]

Most interesting, Master Of The Rohirrim. You seem, as usual in these matters, to have hit upon the head of the matter.

Alas! I have been remiss in my Warg studies of late, and have neglected most study of these great creatures to whom this illustious society is rightfully devoted. I shall try to amend that in the near future...

Perhaps what we need is Wargsaholics Anonymous... for those of us who have LAPSED from Wargaholism...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I have been planning to post on this thread for quite a long time, but more trivial matters have ever succeeded in driving the thought away from me.

Enedwaith, I just wanted to say that regarding the planned Canon, I would like to set aside the Hare problem for a while, considering that they hadn't played any role in the affairs of Eä until the Ages of the Sun. Also, I have been working on the first of the texts on the Wargish Canon, The Ainulindalë according to the Wargs, which I shall post soon--hopefully.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Alas, Form, how we have all neglected this most worthy of threads. Shame be upon us and our families for one thousand generations! Greetinggs, also, Nilp, tis good to have thee back.

Now, horsemaster, I move on to your post. I've looked into Warg dancing a little myself. Indeed, if memory serves I do believe that within the first few posts of this thread there was rather a lively duologue betwix thyself and I regarding Warg dancing. Nonetheless, tis a subject worthy of this learned society's consideration. It is my persuasion that the relationship and strain between Warg and elf regarding dance is somewhat of a microcosm of the Warg/elf dichotomy in its entirety. The Wargs: noble, open to suggestion and not above admitting that in certain circumsatnces there way may not be best. On t'other hand, though, one encounters the elven philosophy: narrow-minded, xenophobic, backward and, in fact, beyond xenophobia: downright racism. Alas, and have Wargs had this burden since before time and sadly they look unlikely to lose it in the pressing future!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

My version of the Wargish Ainulindalë would be delayed a while, as I have come across a very interesting manuscript containing a prophecy of Argwë concerning the last days of Arda. In the meantime, I found this old entry in my journal, and I guessed it would be prudent to share it with you.

August 10, 2005.

Having been caught in a typhoon, I drowned in the ensuing floods and died. Immediately my fëa was taken to Mandos, and then, having been reclothed in a new hroa, I went on to Valinor. During that time dear Kath was on a holiday in Spain, and I watched over her in thought. She was in Antequera at that time, wandering through unusual limestone rock formations. I was fascinated by this sight, and I asked Aulë how he had carved the rock into such marvellous shapes.

'I know not,' he said, 'for I have not made them. You must ask Mandos, from whom none is hidden.'

I took his counsel, and I returned once more to the Halls of Mandos. There I asked Námo about the origin of the strange rocks. Surprisingly, his tale was tied to the Wargs, and how Men have ever misunderstood them.

'No doubt you have heard of the tale of the Kyuubi,' he said.

'Yes,' I answered. 'I have read of him in the tapestries of Vairë.'

'The Kyuubi was not the only one of his kind. He had a brother, the Kitsunë, who was not turned to evil. In the guise of an old man, he wandered the lands east and south of the Blue Mountains, giving aid to the villages of Men who have tried to live their lives free from the shadow of the North.

'One day he came to the village of Suna, which was then assailed with a great drought. By his arts he called forth rain, and the fields of the people of Suna was filled with growing things once more. They thanked the old man, and he was given a place of honour in the village. They asked him to stay a little while with them.

'During that time Thangorodrim had been broken, and all the evil beasts of Morgoth that had not fought in the War of Wrath fled far from the wrack of tha battle. There came to the south the most dreadful of Morgoth's creatures, save the Kyuubi. He was the Shukaku, a racoon of great stature, and whose body was covered with sand.

'The people of Suna saw his approach, and they were seized with fear. They asked Kitsunë to help them; and there before the entire village of Suna he revealed his true form. With a few strides he met the Shukaku in the forest near the village, and there their dreadful battle began. They fought with tooth and claw, and the great tail of Shukaku was caught in the nine tails of Kitsunë. The ground shook terribly as the two exchanged blows. Finally, Kitsunë had succeeded in defeating the beast of the North. Taking once again his human form, he returned to the village. He had not expected the welcome that would be given him.

'The villagers, discovering his true form, seized him. They had ever feared the Wargs, for they had hearkened to the lies of Morgoth, thinking that these great beasts worked for the ill of Men. Outside the village they stoned him to death, and in his last breath he returned to his true form, destroying the village of Suna as he did so.

'As the ages passed his body slowly rotted away, leaving his great bones behind. These eventually became the great limestone hills that you have seen today.'

Then Mandos concluded his tale, and I was silent, for my mind was filled with thoughts.

I have found a few photos relevant to the tale:
Antequera (http://irmg.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Elenrod/El-Torcal-A.jpg)
Shukaku (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Elenrod/naruto-kun-3.jpg)
The Battle (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Elenrod/naruto-kun.jpg)

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

As some of you may know, I travelled to Tanzania a fortnight ago. Eomer told me that it is a favorable opportunity to see Wargs so, needless to say, I was quite excited about it. To my shame I have to tell you that I failed to see even a glimpse of a Warg. I saw plenty of Oliphaunts and Black squirrels, though. But don't worry, I'm not going to let you down. Although I didn't see a Warg, I learnt much of them and I hope I can provide you some new information.

Since Eomer has delivered a great lecture on Wargs' dancing, I have very little to say about that. Wargish dancing was very different. It had a vigour and energy drastically removed from the ways of the Elves. Such fire and passion was the trademark of the Warg; and while it was truly not appropriate for every occasion, Wargish dancing as a celebration of life was unmatched.Ever heard or seen how people of Masai tribes dance? They bounce around jumping high into the air while screaming and clapping wildly. It seems obvious that as nomads who wander a lot around tending cattle, Masais have seen Wargs dancing and adopted the style. Of course it's just an attempt to copy the world's most magnificent dancers but I must admit that some Masais imitate pretty well the ardent nature of Warg dancing.

I visited two national parks during my stay in Africa: Lake Manyara and Ngorongoro. I had hoped to see Wargs there but soon I understood that they were the last places where Wargs would want to live. They were unbelievably beautiful places but 1) there were too many tourists and 2) there were Hyenas. I've understood that Wargs do not usually want to be seen, and at least not with Hyenas. I think it has something to do with the heresy of PJ's Hyena-Lemming Creatures.

The best place to see Wargs is Mt. Kilimanjaro. Our lot climbed to Mandara hut using Marangu (http://www.ewpnet.com/kiliarea.gif) route but it's way too easy and touristy for Wargs. Instead using that kind of routes, they have made plenty of their own little trails crisscross the mountain. The paths are so small and difficult that one can't follow them, so the best way to see Wargs is to climb Umbwe route which is much less popular than Marangu ("A very strenuous walk up steep, slippery paths with many fallen trees to negotiate. The middle section follows a narrow spectacular ridge with magnificent views of the Great Barranco and Southern Icefields."). Wargs like their own privacy but at times they make an appearance to people who are ambitious enough not to go the easiest way to the top.

I also found out that Wargs don't ever suffer from mountain sickness. They can climb up and down the mountain as fast as they wish without any danger of getting fluid builded up within their lungs or brain.

All in all, I'm pleased with my trip even though I didn't get to meet a Warg. I believe the fate of Kitsunë is one reason why people don't even deserve to see Wargs but maybe some day we can live in harmony with them. Now I just have to keep researching and studying Warg lore. Thanks, Nilp, for sharing that story with us.

[SamwiseGamgee]

dancing spawn, you uncover an interesting truth: it is becoming increasingly difficult to see Wargs. Some believe that finding a Warg is as elementary as finding one's own foot: INCORRECT!

Once upon a time this was true, but now we find that Wargs are becoming increasingly xenophobic and wary of outsiders. It's sad, there is so much we can learn from them, but the vicious actions of we humans against Wargs mean they are understandibly reluctant to share with us. Curse those of our race who have brought this upon us!

[SamwiseGamgee]

Evening all. How are we at this most honoured hall of Warg appreciation? Well, I trust.

Anyway, onwards I must tread towards my point: I recently saw Ye Olde Chronicles of Narnia and was, I must say, somewhat unsuprised to find that the wolves were evil. Cruel killers, aye. So here's my question: why? What happened, I wonder, to putWargs so out of favour with men in this world of ours'? If anyone knows, pray enlighten me. Let us spark up the Appreciation Thread so it may roar as the mighty fire it truly is!

P.S.- Look out for my next post: Warg Carols

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

How, some wonder, does Santa deliver all those gifts in one night?

Why, he uses Wargs, of course.

Santa, in fact, is a Warg Rider.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Of course! :D

It's almost time for the second birthday celebrations here at this most prestigious thread. Apparently we missed the first birthday.

Yes, I'm skipping over the bringing in of the New Year because I don't believe that Wargs celebrate it. They tend to celebrate important things rather than the mechanical passing of time.

[Kath]

Well, they probably wouldn't celebrate our New Year as what significance would it hold for them, but what's to say they don't celebrate it at a time relevant to their history?

Obviously their celebration wouldn't be getting drunk, as what Warg would lower themselves to that, but maybe a gathering and rememberance.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Wargs are such high beings, though, that they live in a state of perpetual reflection on the joys and the sorrows of life. At least that's how I see it.

Men can barely rise above the trials and tribulations of the everyday, and that's why they need a 'New Year' celebration. The Elves went in for all of that too.

[SamwiseGamgee]

It's true, Eomer. Wargs are so great that they transcend everything. Time, reality and space are all but nothing to a Warg. How great it must be to have abandoned boundaries like that.

[Kath]

Then perhaps any celebration of a new year might be a time of rest from such pursuits. A time just to celebrate and marvel at life rather than attempting to understand the origins or the reasons for it.

Forgive me I am not arguing with you Eomer, a distinguished Warg scholar indeed, I just wonder whether perhaps such a tradition might have started with these creatures, rather than passed them by.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ask not for forgiveness, dearest Kath! Questioning everything is one of the things that separates the Wargs from the others.

I was just thinking: did the Elves celebrate the New Year? Because, living for so long, it would be almost like Men celebrating every new Hour or whatever. Fair enough, annual celebrations can be special to Men because we might get only 60 of them, or thereabouts. But Elves would be doing it millions of times. It is possibly different for Wargs if they are not bound within time.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

It's true, Eomer. Wargs are so great that they transcend everything. Time, reality and space are all but nothing to a Warg. (SawmwiseGamgee)

Concur. As I once quoted:

[Mauan: ]We are not concerned with history, with the past ages of Arda; for to our care was given all the notes and chords of the Music, to keep in order until it has reached the fullness of its measure and our Lord comes to cleanse it.

To Wargs every second is new, and they know that every second brings something different from the one before it (thus many say they are the caretakers of the estel, which Eru gave to Men, but I digress from that topic--for now). This is, I believe, is one of the reasons Wargs can endure such unimaginable hatred the world has managed to throw at their most marvellous race. They simply don't care what others have said--they look forward to the hope that all their deeds were for the good of Eä.

[Anguirel]

Oh, race of Wargs, race from across the mountains, race chosen and beloved by Eru as shines forth in very many of your works set apart from all nations by the situation of your thread, as well as by your faith and the honor of the holy Wargdom! To you our discourse is addressed and for you our exhortation is intended. We wish you to know what a grievous cause has led us to Your Thread, what peril threatening you and all the faithful has brought us.

From the confines of Mirth and the thread of The Hobbit Survivor a horrible tale has gone forth and very frequently has been brought to our ears, namely, that a race from the land of the Shire, an accursed race, a race utterly alienated from davem, a generation forsooth which has not directed its heart and has not entrusted its spirit to Eru, has invaded the lands of Wargs and has depopulated them by the sword, pillage and fire; it has led away a part of the captives into its own country, and a part it has destroyed by cruel tortures; it has either entirely destroyed the temples of Wargdom or appropriated them for the rites of its own religion, genealogy.

When they wish to torture Wargs by a base death, they perforate incinerate their noses, and dragging forth the extremity of the tail, bind it to a stake; then with flogging they lead the victim around until the viscera having gushed forth the victim falls prostrate upon the ground.

Others they bind to a post and pierce with arrows. Others they compel to extend their necks and then, attacking them with naked kitchen knives, attempt to cut through the neck with a single blow.

The thread of the Wargs is now dismembered by these Hobbits and deprived of territory so vast in extent that it can not be traversed in a march of two pages. On whom therefore is the labour of avenging these wrongs and of recovering this territory incumbent, if not upon you? You, upon whom above other nations Eomer has conferred remarkable glory in arms, great courage, bodily activity, and strength to humble the less-hairy scalp of those who resist you.

Let the deeds of your ancestors move you and incite your minds to manly achievements; the glory and greatness of High King Fingolfin, and of his associate Eomer, and of your other Wargologists, who have lowered the threads of the unbelievers, and have extended in these lands the territory of the holy Wargdom. Let the holy sepulchre of the Lord Warg Rider, which is possessed by unclean Hobbits, especially incite you, and the holy places which are now treated with ignominy and irreverently polluted with their filthiness. Oh, most valiant Wargs and descendants of invincible ancestors, be not degenerate, but recall the valour of your progenitors.

Go thee to the thread of Hobbit Survivor and save the Chief Warg by voting for Belladonna Took.

(With apologies to the late Pope Urban II)

[SamwiseGamgee]

Why, oh, why?

Why does this great thread go neglected. Yes, we have games of werewolf and the neverending Crazy Captions, but are we forgetting something: Wargs gave us these all!

Please, brethern, do not ignore my plea: devote thyself oncemore to the Warg!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I was thinking along those same lines, Samwise. It has been far too long since we heard tales of Wargs of the Elder Days.

The line at the Last Alliance also had me thinking. Apparently, all things but the Elves were split on that day. Does that mean that Wargs, and yea! even Orcs, fought under Gil-galad and Elendil?

Not much secondary literature written on that one, eh Tolkien scholars!

[Kath]

Alright Eomer I got the hint :rolleyes:

I must ask:

Yes, we have games of werewolf and the neverending Crazy Captions, but are we forgetting something: Wargs gave us these all!
Wargs gave us Crazy Captions? The most noble of creatures sat down, found a picture and proceded to create vulgar humour from it? Though I respect you as a scholar, I find myself unable to believe such a thing.

Their creation of the werewolf games on the other hand I can quite understand. A game full of such cunning and bravery is well-suited.

[Formendacil]

I must concur with the Honourable Lady Kath, my dear Brother-and-fellow-Warg Scholar. Though I cannot but respect your preeminent position amongst those who admire and revere the great and might Warg, and I have a full appreciation for the deep contributions you have contributed to Man's current understanding of them, I must disagree with you as to the origins of the Crazy Captions thread.

Though these things be a matter of confusion for scholars, so many hundreds of captions have gone by since the inception of the Crazy Captions, that it is no longer easy to discern with whom its origins lay, but the school of thought to which I belong is of the contention that the Wargs did not, in all probability, have a hand in the creation of this now powerhouse amongst threads. Indeed, if one is to examine such evidence as remains of the early years of the thread, it was not a particularly noble or notable thread- and surely any thread founded by the Wargs must indeed have been such a one, as the Werewolf games themselves prove.

It is therefore my contention that the Wargs did NOT found or cause to be founded the Crazy Captions thread. It is likely to my way of thinking, however, that they soon appreciated the potential for rib-cracking humour in the thread, and knowing of the desperate need among Man for such things, in their beneficence, they put forth their assistance that it would grow from one thread among man to the King of All Mirth Threads.

All of which leads me to a most peculiar theory. It is welll known that one "Hookbill the Goomba" is the chief (known) Mastermind behind the current success of the Crazy Captions. If we then are to believe that it was the influence of the Wargs that brought the Captions to their greatness, then ought we not believe that Hookbill- who is associated also with that rise to greatness- is in some way connected to the Wargs?

I think it overpreposterous to assume that Hookbill is, in fact, a Warg, though I do not discount the possibility, unless a Warg Itself should tell me to do so. I do, however, contend that this species or tribe of "Goombas" may, in fact, be part-Wargish in blood.

The prudes among you may recoil at the thought of Man and Warg wedded, but do not these same prudes have no issue with the marriage of Man and Elf? And should they not consider themselves honoured?

As Mark Twain once said, misapplied to cats, crossing a Man and a Warg would improve the Man immensely, but ruin the Warg.

However, history having shown what an effect a strain of Elvish blood had on humanity, for its betterment, how much more so would a strain of Wargish blood have had?

I believe these matter bear further investigation.

~Michael A. Joosten - Warg Scholar~

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ah! Someone took the hint, I see. :p

Actually Kath, I was merely reading through this greatest of threads and dishing out rep hither and thither as it pleased me. This great Barrow-Downs institution is even better than I remembered it.

I think you might be interpreting the words of Samwise too literally. Perhaps Wargs did not invent captions, as such; but there has been a long-standing belief in certain circles of Wargology that Wargs did, in fact, rouse the humour-faculties in the race of men.

And that is even greater. Mark Twain, more than most, will have seen the value of that.

[Kath]

Perhaps Wargs did not invent captions, as such; but there has been a long-standing belief in certain circles of Wargology that Wargs did, in fact, rouse the humour-faculties in the race of men.
Then it has become a double-edged sword, as a gift given in good faith to men is now often used by them to discredit or ridicule the Wargs that provided them with it.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I see this descending into an objectivity-of-humour discussion (I remember one of those with SPM about movie-Gimli ;) ).

But surely, even if such foul abuse can properly be called 'humour', would it not be worth it? Suppose they had given the gift of life to men, those same men might use it to try to end the lives of the Wargs. It would be tragic. And we all know how much the Wargs value a good tragedy.

Sometimes, one must give, knowing that the gift could lead to evil, even an ironic evil, as in this case.

[High King Fingolfin]

I am delighted to see that this, greatest of threads, has returned from its exile. The Wargs shall rise once again on the Barrow-Downs!

[Formendacil]

I see this descending into an objectivity-of-humour discussion (I remember one of those with SPM about movie-Gimli ;) ).

But surely, even if such foul abuse can properly be called 'humour', would it not be worth it? Suppose they had given the gift of life to men, those same men might use it to try to end the lives of the Wargs. It would be tragic. And we all know how much the Wargs value a good tragedy.

Sometimes, one must give, knowing that the gift could lead to evil, even an ironic evil, as in this case.

You couch your words in term such as "would" and "suppose", Honoured Scholar Eomer, but any good Wargophile will know that this is but a gentle humour with which you melancholically refer to the true events of history, almost. Though the gift of Life comes but from Eru, and not from the Wargs (though there are those who would say that Eru is a Warg, but that is a metaphysical question and beyond my historical scope), is it not true that the quality of Life that we possess comes from the Wargs? Where would we be without the great benefits they have given us?

I am convinced that the ancient Greeks knew of this. The tale of Prometheus can be nothing but a garbled tale of the Wargs, bringing fire and civilization to needy Man, only to suffer at the hands of the jealous Eldar for the rest of eternity. And indeed, in times since, what has Man done to set Prometheus (which assuredly must be Race of Wargs in Greek) loose from his chains?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Indeed. 'Theos' was the ancient Greek word for god ('theus' might be a typo); and it is barely even worth investigating what 'Prome' meant — undoubtedly, this 'Warg-god' has, throughout history, suffered an injustice regarding his true character and identity.

[High King Fingolfin]

Indeed, Wargs have shaped the history of mankind. I suspect their intervention on both sides in the American Civil War. (Was Robert E. Lee a Warg?)

[High King Fingolfin]

Why do the Wargs go neglected again? This thread mus not die! The Wargs demand it.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Be at peace, Fingolfin. The day there is nothing about Wargs left to talk about comes after the day that there is nothing to talk about on the Barrow-Downs; and so this website will crumble into oblivion long before this thread is neglected by us Faithful.

[High King Fingolfin]

You are correct Eomer. I just cannot bear to see the Wargs lie abandoned with their glory forgotten.

[Gaunt]

Hail Eomer and other Warg devotees!
Today I bring you the cruel and terrible tale of the Warg-a-tron, a tale of anguish and suffering the likes of which is rarely told.

Long ago, on the fringes of the Northern Wastes, lived a humble people in a humble village, the last of their humble clan whose lack of taste for conquest and violence had seen their numbers gradually dwindle so that they could only fill one village. For years they had been untroubled, believing that they were too peaceful to make enemies and that they had too little to attract raiders to such an inhospitable region.

But a few years before the brutal climax of this tale, people of the village had begun to see shapes and shadows as they foraged in nearby woods and hills. Sometimes the shapes could be seen in the moolight, slinking packs of huge, sharptoothed quadrupeds moving with an air of extreme menace.

A wise old man of the village proclaimed these creatures to be Wargs, fearsome creatures he had learned of in his youth from a man even older than he. The villagers came to fear the Wargs more than anything, though they rarely saw them, and never in the clear light of day.

One man in the village, a somewhat undistinguished magician, bravely swore to protect the villagers from the Warg threat. He set about creating charms and spells to ward off the beasts. But every thing he tried failed spectacularly, and sometimes to comical effect, such as the time he attempted to create a warg destroying beam emitter, a kind of anti warg death rod. Every time he tried to demonstrate this to the villagers, either nothing happened or he transformed into a ludicrous beast, part bird and part pig, and when he transformed back the villagers would pelt him with vegetables and chase him back to his hut on the outskirts of the village, laughing at the magician all the way.

As his attempts at magic continued and the vilagers laughed at him more and more, the magician began to turn from his noble quest and turn his energies towrards his loathing of the ungrateful villagers. He moved out of the village into the nearby hills and set about his new life's work, something that would turn out to be the greatest but most despicable of his magical achievements.

The magician met a band of travelling rogues one day in the hills, and by lying about his prowess with magic they agreed to have him join their party as they attempted to raid a goblin hoard. By letting out a few theatrical flashes and bangs in the midst of the combat the magician managed to convince the rogues he had played a major part in their victory, and he was given a large share of the loot.

With this gold he employed bandits to travel to the dwarven mines and bring him back vast quantities of metal. During this time he practiced the dark magical art of making inanimate objects come to life and reap destruction, and at this he proved far more adept than he ever was at the noble forms of magic he had previously tried to practice. On occasion his whole house was almost destroyed by a rock he managed to bring to life, before he mastered the art of directing the animated object's wrath against specific targets.

When the bandits returned with his metal, he paid them further to construct his ultimate weapon of death, according to his plans. They thought it was merely a statue, the whim of a rich, crazed old man, but it was far worse. For this abomination, the magician knew there was only one form he could choose. The fears of the villagers and the potential for irony after his spurned attempts to protect them were too much for the magician to resist. When the bandits completed their work and were paid off, leaving to return to their homelands, the magician gazed in wonder at his creation - a titanic metal Warg. He called this the Warg-a-tron.

Days later, unbeknownst to the villagers as they tended their crops, the Warg-a-tron came to life. The magician cast his spell and sent the immense beast to its dreadful work. The villagers heard a distant rumbling, and held each other, trembling. From over the crest of a hill, the Warg-a-tron strode... to be continued.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

The best part in TTT would be when the warg riders and the rohan guys on the horses charge each other and you get to see all the horses in the front get crunched up by the wargs.

[High King Fingolfin]

Lo! I thought the Wargs had abandoned us. I am overjoyed to see that I was mistaken. Warg sightings have dropped off recently in my area, and I fear the Winged Wargs have left the area entirely. But such is the way of the Warg. Their actions are inscrutable to mere mortals such as we.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

Dont worry wargs cant die out, theer every where see jus now ones trying to fit through my cat door i better get the broom....

[Gaunt]

The villagers were frozen in fear as the Warg-a-tron towered over their small settlement. A few hardy men walked slowly from their homes bearing old and battered swords, useless for true battle, and positioned themselves between the Warg-a-tron and their families.

The Warg-a-tron shuddered to a halt, it's joints creaking violently, like a chorus of death screeches. It's huge snouted head looked right and and left, then suddenly its jaws flew open and let out a deafening roar. The terrifying cry of the mechanical painbringer blasted the villagers to the ground and tore strips of thatch from the roofs of their homes. Eventually it ceased, but the Warg-a-tron opened its jaws once more and the villagers cowered to the ground, preparing for another sonic blast.

But this time there came not sound, but metal. The beast spat forth a dense shower of razor sharp metal shards. The brave men and the other vilagers standing out in the open were ripped to pieces. After a few seconds the Warg-a-tron's kill storm halted, and all the open ground in the village was covered in a thick bed of twisted, deadly, blood-soaked metal.

All at once, the surviving villagers left their homes and began to run, hopping this way and that to avoid impaling their limbs on the metal shards. The Warg-a-tron reared up on its hind legs and prepared to crush the people with one mighty, crashing lunge.

In this moment of mortal peril, as they ran like they never had before, the thought flashed through the minds of some of the villagers that this was as bad as their lives could possibly get. Then their hearts filled with black despair as they saw an army of living wargs hurtling towards them, and their last slim hopes of survival were extinguished. They closed their eyes and waited for the end.

But it didn't come. The wargs filtered through the fleeing villagers and onwards, towards the Warg-a-tron. As the villagers stood in amazement, wargs gently swept them iup n their jaws and bore them away from the village, out of reach of the Warg-a-tron's violence. When they were laid down on the top of a small hill, they caught their breath and looked back to the village. What they saw was unforgettable.

Wargs were leaping onto the Warg-a-tron and clambering all over its hulking metal frame as it thrashed around trying to shake of its assailants. Many wargs were crushed by this devastating mockery of their own noble form, but they never flinched and threw themslves again and again at their foe every time they were thrown to the ground.

The wargs swarmed over the Warg-a-tron, and, bit by bit, they tore it apart, gnashing and hacking with their teeth and claws. As the battle raged more and more pieces of the Warg-a-tron fell away, but even these pieces fought the wargs, animated by the magician's dark magic as they were.

After three hours of this mighty combat between warg and machine, the War-a-tron was no more. Hundreds of wargs lay dead among the shattered remnants of the village, but the Warg-a-tron had been reduced to a pile of scrap. But these metal pieces, almost as soon as they hit the ground, were reanimated and flew up to fight the wargs. The wargs had no way of stopping the metal. They ripped it into smaller pieces but by doing so only created many foes instead of one. So the wargs ran.

But they did not flee, They ran to the source of the evil - the magician. He had been directing the Warg-a-tron with a staff of black wood from a craggy hill that overlooked the village. The wargs saw his silhouette against the first flash of lightning from an approaching thunderstorm, and they raced to put an end him and his lifeless army. All the way the metal shards chased them and cut down wargs with their sharp edges.

When the wargs crested the outcrop where the magician stood, he did not flee, but with a look of maniacal glee waited till hundreds of wargs surrounded him, blocking all escape routes. The thunder and lightning grew ferocious as the eye of the storm centred on the crag. The wargs crept closer as the magician continued to madly grin. One warg could hold back no longer and leaped at the magician.

Suddenly a bolt of lightning struck down on the spot where the magician stood, a split second before the warg's jaws landed a fatal blow. The leaping warg burst into flame and crashed into the ground. The magician was nowhere to be seen. The wargs searched the hill and the forest on one of its slopes, but there was no sign of him. Then the wargs left, moving back into the shadows as the storm subsided.

The villagers wept with joy at being alive. But sadness scarred them as they went back the village to clear the metal and the bodies of their families and their saviours, the wargs. In the weeks and months that followed they set about rebuilding their village. Once it was completed, they pooled all the money they could scrape together and hired a great craftsman. Under the villagers' instructions he created a wondrous monument - a towering bronze statue of a noble warg, gazing wistfully to the north, whence his kind had left when the villagers last saw them, after the mighty battle of the Warg-a-tron.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

A mighty tale, Gaunt, and it is with delight that I see you finally posting on the Barrow-Downs, so many years after you made me aware of this place. :)

The tale underlines a crucial aspect of the character of Wargs. They are proud, and suffer no mockery. They famously place a great importance on manners, more so than perhaps any other race of Middle-earth or beyond.

The story also features a classic character: the magician, in this case, who is ridiculed by a people only to turn into that people's worst nightmare. In fact, I see so many parallels between this story and much of our world's classic literature; it makes me wonder how much the tales we grew up with 'borrowed' from the ancient stories of Wargdom.

[Gaunt]

Thankee, Eomer, Thankee.

I recounted this tale, with a stylistic flourish here and there, exactly as it was told to me by a wandering old man. Formerly of the village, he had grown disillusioned after the terror of the Warg-a-tron and had failed to settle back into village life. He now wanders from place to place, drinking in local taverns and telling his tale if he is plied with enough ale. He had filled the gaps in his knowledge about the tale by speaking to some of the bandits who had worked for the magician when he met them by chance in a distant inn.

Besides his story, he told me something interesting. One man to whom he told his story said he had heard talk of Wargs before, from a certain tavern owner named Raderak in a coastal town to the West. I intend to travel there and speak to this tavern owner as soon as possible. If he truly has something interesting to tell, I will report it here.

By the way Eomer, you must tell me how I can join and play a game of werewolf. It sounds good.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Ah, the joy of The Greatest Thread Of All Time. Now, to business: Wargs did give us Crazy Captions. Not because they thought it amusing themselves, or that they are crud. Of course not. It is simply that Wargs, in their wondrous benevolence, conjoured the concept and realised we mere humans would enjoy this tirifle, and so gifted it unto us.
Let me make this perfectly clear, friends: one must not underestimate the power and greatness of Wargs.
Welcome, also, Gaunt. Your tales of Wargdom are, obviously, beautiful. It enrages me to think of this blasphemous Warg-A-Tron, and yet I love to hear the story of the most noble Wargs. Is there no end to their greatness?

[arcticstorm]

As many know the people of the elder children of Illuvitar have always had a great hatred for the warg, as can be seen by the neglect of the species in their historical document, yes even those who visit the elves gain a growing hatred for the warg. This can be seen in the slander perpetrated against all wargs in Bilbo Baggins personal memoirs. But where did this hatred begin? After months of researching many-a-lost historical document, I have found what I believe to be the true origin of the hatred the elves have for the great and illustrious species known as the warg.

Long before the first elves awoke, the wargs kept watch over the lands of Middle Earth. Melkor, having driven the Valar to the west had claimed the lands of Middle Earth for himself. His dominion, however, was not unopposed. The warg tribes united under one banner and strove to keep the lands safe. During this war, they stumbled upon the first Elven settlements, and the strongest and wisest of the elves were each taken for a month at a time and educated and were granted the strength and wisdom of the warg. These new champions for the elvish race returned and enlightened their brethren with their newfound wisdom. The wargs were hailed as the saviors of all, for a short while. It did not take Melkor long, however, to discover this amazing gift. It was then that he sent his servents to hide in the forests near the elvish settlements and await their champions. These champions and others were taken and were never seen again. Soon, orcs appeared in the lands and the good feelings the elves felt toward the wargs changed for they blamed the wargs for Melkor’s cruelty. They believed that the wargs were sent to get them off guard. Thus their beloved heroes became hated and those who fraternized with the wargs were executed. Soon the wargs, in sadness, had to leave and the elves have hated them since.

[Flaming Angel]

Hearing all these wonderous tales, I have been inspired to tell you my tale, it is not a very long tale nor does it have a story to tell. Infact i just wanted to tell you all that during my extensive travels, i happened upon an outcast warg, shunned for not taking part in the slaughter of women and children. We came to an agreement to become partners, him allowing me to ride on his back while i protected his flank with my mighty recurve bow, and together we roam the lands killing whomever we please, good or evil. But we have drawn the line at killing women and children. Together we search, looking for our next prey. For those who frown upon us, take into consideration that we kill the bad guys too and if you still don't like us, stay out of the way. Simple as that. We are currently searching for other wargs and riders who share our feelings, so as to make a pack.

Just wanted to inform you all of that fact, so i shall take my leave now

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Debate currently rages in the N & N forum concerning that mysterious Tolkien character, Gothmog of the Third Age. The aim is to discover who this Gothmog was, for Tolkien gave us but small scraps of information concerning him (or indeed her - though I shall use the term 'he' henceforth). He was lieutenant of Morgul. He assumed control of Sauron's army after the death of the Witch-King. These are givens, and the rest is clever detective work.

For many suppose he was either Orc, Man, or Ringwraith. I think that Gothmog was none of these.

I believe he was neither orc nor (ordinary) man because he had to command orcs and men. Orcs would dislike following a man and vice versa. For such a major role a bigger character is required. Sauron surely thought this too.

Some believe that the answer is now simple: to lead the army, in the event of the Witch-King's death, another Ringwraith is needed. But I find this unlikely too. An interesting point concerns the name itself. No other Ringwraith is named personally; the Witch-King is a title; Khamul is mentioned but not in a finished work. This is probably to make the Ringwraiths more detached and impersonal; possessions of Sauron.

But what also gets me thinking is that Gothmog was not described at all. There would be no reason not to mention that another Ringwraith took the Witch-King's place. The compiler loved Ringwraiths, as is shown by other chapters of the book. I believe Gothmog was left out of the story as much as possible due to a grudge on the part of the compiler of the story (biased Hobbits).

Whom do Hobbits hate, and are powerful enough to lead armies of Orcs and Men? Gothmog was a Warg, I deem. We know that Witchy was Sauron's favourite, that's probably why Gothmog did not have full command regardless. Or it could be that Gothmog was actually a weak, wretched, corrupted Warg, able still to lead Orcs and Men but actually below the level of the top Ringwraith.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

In the Barrow-Downs section of the forum, Lalwendë has provided us with the link to a very interesting piece of equipment. Google trends gives information on search terms entered into Google, and arranges it by location. Thus we are able to discover places in the world where folk are particularly interested in Wargs! If I can copy a post...


Regions

1. Sweden

2. Poland

3. Finland

4. Germany

5. United Kingdom

6. Canada

7. Australia

8. Netherlands

9. United States

10. France



Cities

1. Stockholm, Sweden

2. Szczecin, Poland

3. Wroclaw, Poland

4. Poznan, Poland

5. Lodz, Poland

6. Krakow, Poland

7. Warsaw, Poland

8. Gdansk, Poland

9. Katowice, Poland

10. Goteborg, Sweden



Not to disparage famed Warg-appreciating lands such as Peru ( ;) ) because of the language issue, but my goodness! My respect for the wonderful people of Sweden and Poland just increased tenfold! :D

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

You had no idea what I had to bribe Mandos with before he let me read this.

And then I had to bribe him some more to get him to translate it.

Praised to the highest be the One, the Father of all.

Praised to the highest be the creator of the Grawlar, the ever-discarnate, the offsprings of his spirit.

Seven Grawlar he created, the true Firstborn, the Wargs of Might, ere the Timeless Halls were builded.

Princedom he conferred upon Varsur, first of the Firstborn, mightiest of the created.

With precious stones he clad him, symbol of his office, mark of his authority.

Oushd afh Aghia [meaning unknown - translated from the Wargish by Námo]

This is not the entirety of the manuscript, but I ran out of Gummibärchen with which to bribe him.

It agrees, to the least detail, with the account in Olórin's manuscript (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=379584&postcount=267) that I found in Ingwë's house. But interesting were the words 'true Firstborn'. Later in the manuscript I found the words 'true Followers' preceding the word 'Ainur' (I learned a few Wargish words from atarinya, who is, after all, a Warg-friend.) May it be that Eru's creation of the two Children in Eä parallels that of the Grawlar and the Ainur?

But, alas, the Ainur are offspring of his thought, yet the Grawlar are of his spirit.

(Must find more Gummy Bears--apparently he likes the orange ones.)

[Morthoron]

With all the controversy swirling about the underappreciated wargish population, I thought this would be appropriate to repost here. It is an interview I did with a warg soon after the debut of The Two Towers:

The Dark Elf discusses the finer points of cinema with a warg

The Dark Elf: Mr. Warg, it has come to our attention that the wolfish population of Middle-earth has been set on its collective furry ear by the dramatization of wargs in the film The Two Towers; which is to say, you feel Peter Jackson characterized you rather badly. That is, not 'badly' in an evil sense, which you certainly are, *The Warg nods approvingly* but rather ineptly.

Warg: Yes, my dear chap. Having reviewed the suspect footage, I must say I found it to be wanting in every respect. I mean really, the only time I have seen such a sunken gut on one of my kin was when poor Uncle Lupine contracted worms. Nasty parasites, those.

TDE: Yes, I suppose so. Then you feel misrepresented?

W: Certainly! As if to be continually associated with those foul Orcs wasn't bad enough, we are now portrayed as if we've been cross-bred with snub-nosed, gangrel hyenas! It's all too much, really.

TDE: How so?

W: Hmmm...aside from the horridly distorted image of wargs presented by Peter Jackson in his flawed film, another mischaracterization from a plot standpoint deals with warg-kind used as saddled were-ponies, which of course is patently ludicrous! This is primarily due to Mr. Jackson’s incessant pillaging of a non-canonical source: The Hobbit.

TDE: Then your characterization in The Hobbit was incorrect as well?

W: Good Lord, Man…I mean Elf -- pardon the slip -- The Hobbit was originally published as a children’s story; whatever resemblance it had with the Middle-earth cosmology as a whole was at first merely coincidental. This sordid juxtaposition was accomplished later via manic editing by the author in order to marry the plot of The Hobbit – however awkwardly -- with the far more serious storyline of Lord of the Rings. Nevertheless, the plot is rife with fairy tale elements. It’s Brothers Grimm meets the Völuspá! Talking trolls with Cockney accents? It’s absurd! Have you ever spoken to a troll? They are as dumb as doorknobs! One can’t expect more than a few grunts and a good deal of flatulence from the lumbering oafs.

TDE: And this rewrite of The Hobbit concerns your species in what manner?

W: Let's look at this logically, shall we? No self-respecting warg of some 500 pounds has the ability or inclination to carry about some pusillanimous Orc enmeshed in 50 or so pounds of chain mail. Their scent alone is enough to make one gag! We are not pack animals like those pompous Mearas (although I must say they are quite delicious in a bordelaise sauce with a nice glass of port to wash them down). I think it is a bit much to expect one of the proud lineage of canis lupus megaterribilis to accept the stirrup and bridle. It is far too over the top, even for a ham-handed director of Jackson’s ilk, don't you think?

TDE: Most definitely. Are there any formal protests planned?

W: No. The pack felt that picketing would be, if you will excuse the pun, merely 'crying wolf'. As nocturnal predators, we feel more direct action is called for. We shall be stalking Peter Jackson’s home in Wellington, New Zealand. If the bloated blighter should even pop his head out the front door, he shall make a tasty treat. After all, there is enough of him to feed the whole pack!

TDE: Hmmm...but don't you think large wolfish creatures slinking about in a modern city, even at night, would be cause for alarm?

*The Warg rolls his eyes*

W: Silly, we shall be in disguise, of course.

TDE: Ah, sort of ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing', as it were?

W: Quite.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

:D Welcome to the Thread, Morthoron.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

There can be only one thread on which to make my 4000th post on the Barrow-Downs.

There is a thread going on these days in N&N about the images Downers have of characters in The Lord of the Rings, and whether they have been affected by the popular films or by other sources. A subject hit upon before, of course, but always interesting. I would like to turn it on its head, though, and ask the question from a different perspective:

Did The Lord of the Rings affect your image of Wargs?

In this age of Wikipedia, few people rigorously check their sources (don't get me wrong, I love wikipedia - an afternoon at work reading up on certain mediaeval battles is well spent). However, people accept what is presented to them without checking the ancient proofs. Old manuscripts and stone tablets detailing the exploits and wisdom of Wargs abound, yet the dominating presence of one particular, biased text is felt keenly.

The Lord of the Rings was written by a hobbit with a serious anti-Warg agenda. Why has the general population been taken in so easily?

So, has your image of Wargs and Wargdom been coloured by this hateful propaganda? Or do you place trust in the ancient, contemporary sources? I plan on looking at some of these sources in the near future and hopefully we can discuss them.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Friends and contributors! The honour of Wargdom needs you! Go to the thread titled 'Hurt and Heal' in Middle-earth Mirth. Here you shall find a contest where, as per usual, the Warg is suffering absurd discrimination. Fight against this injustice and heal the Chief Warg.

We can all make a small difference in this cruel world.

[the phantom]

I'm extremely interested to see if your efforts here will help or hinder your cause.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

No matter. Should evil triumph then the Chief Warg will become another martyr.