The masks of inscrutability, or are you really you?

[HerenIstarion]

Disclaimer: Phone numbers (or any other contact details) of doctors majoring in split personality treatment are highly unwelcome, anyone trying to provide information of the kind indicated is doing it at their own risk.

The question occurred to yours truly whilst posting to Nominations For Best Nicks (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=4488&page=6) thread, but I feel it was hovering on the edge of my conscious mind ever before. I will try to make it articulate to the extent I’m able to (being of not great knowledge in the field of psychology, that is)

Allegedly, coming around here we all wear masks – our nicks. Come to think of it, are we really we when posting here? Forced to consider this, I can’t help noticing HerenIstarion does not equal George Lashkhi. Yes, they both sign my posts – one as an author, so he’s name goes above, and another signs it below, as to affirm we both participated, but I can’t help thinking of H-I as of different person. And I have a suspicion he is at once better person than GL finds himself to be, and worse in some other aspects. For one, H-I is more prone to the sin of vanity, but he is smarter, more polite and well-spoken and bolder than GL is.

So, the question comes down to trivial ‘is it just me, or have you noticed something similar?’

PS Concerning disclaimer above: unless the doctors in question are not Tolkienites and the provision of their contact details has an aim of getting good Tolkien discussion around. The statement of purpose to be included

[davem]

Well, David Marley is not exactly davem. davem is way too dogmatic & sure of himself, & a lot of the time I'm slightly embarrassed to be associated with him - I wish he would be more polite & less 'certain', & stop pretending to be some kind of expert on all things Tolkien, because I don't believe he's anything of the kind.

I also wish I understood half of what he wrote, or where it came from - too much of what he posts just comes to him as hes typing, & he has a bad habit of just hitting the submit button before he'e re-read it & thought about it.

[Crystal Heart]

I have to say that I disagree. Crystal Heart and my real personality are the same in every way. I created my screenname to represent me. I have never thought about it before in any different way. We are both the same person. As my signature says: What you see is exactly what you get. Don't say I didn't warn you.

-Crystal Heart-

[mark12_30]

Er...

I think mark12_30 and Helen wish they weren't quite so similar.

And I bet Mithadan won't post on this thread. Nor Mister Underhill either. Talk about sustaining a mystique.

[HerenIstarion]

edit: cross posting with Mark here, the reply was mainly to the post prior to hers.

Hey, Helen, no knowing about Mr. U, but about Mith your guess is probably correct :). Could we tease him into it? Something like 'bet you a dollar you won't show up in the Masks thread? Wonder if he would fall for dollar, though...

end of edit

*********************

Good for you :D You won't need the contact details of doctors, even if those are provided

But a bit of clarification: the topic is based mainly on perception of things as yours truly sees them. For me, name defines thing to an extent (even when I do not think it out, on some unconscious level), so different names have to be defining different things. That's why (up to a point) HerenIstarion is not the same as George Lashkhi for me. The innumerable connotations, based, among other things, on visual effect of names being written down, and the sound of them pronounced, do the trick too.

Besides, even when I do not think that either out, I inevitable act differently as reacting to different situations. Hence, as my presence (as presence of other members, of course) is virtual, expressed by what I write, not by how I look or what I sound like, I act differently of what I would do if we all were having rounds of beer in a pub. We all are up to a point incognito. No one can know as a fact, whether I have four huge-n-hairy warts on the tip of my nose or not, so to say, and it makes me free. On the other hand, the opinion of mates here rates higher, for we all feel and are equals, it is what C.S.Lewis called (as a joke) 'mutual admiration society', or friendship. But in virtual friendship, it is easier to hurt. Hence the caution and politeness, which I would not have shown if we were indeed in a mentioned pub.

Hence conclusion - if HerenIstarion acts differently from George Lashkhi, and has his own name, we are separate (even if slightly so) persons, are not we?

It's a bit of a joke too, but as Russians say, there is a bit of a truth to each joke, or, as H-I (but not GL) would put it, there is a bit of a joketo each joke, and the rest is truth

cheers

[The Saucepan Man]

If anything, davem, it's the opposite for me. I suspect that the Man behind the Pans is sometimes less thoughtful and reasonable than his Forum counterpart. After all, he does not, in real life, have the luxury of reviewing and moderating everything that he says before he says it. :rolleyes: ;)

Edit: I cross-posted with you, H-I, but I would certainly agree with you when you say:


But in virtual friendship, it is easier to hurt. Hence the caution and politeness, which I would not have shown if we were indeed in a mentioned pub.That's part of what I was trying to get across above. It also explains my excessive use of 'smileys'. :rolleyes:

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Great thread idea, HI!

The difference between my real life identity (H****) and my online personality is complicated by the fact that Estelyn has two different aspects to her: she is the person who posts and moderates on the forum today, but she is also a character who lives in Fourth Age Middle-earth and takes part in (RPG) adventures there.

Similarities: Both H* and Estelyn are female, both no longer in their youth. (Though the online person is quite reticent about giving her exact age, since numbers can be divisive, and it's nice to cross age boundaries on the internet.) I think that the way Estelyn reacts is fairly similar to H*'s reactions. The moderator Estelyn does weigh her words more carefully than the poster Esty does, though. (Hmmm, even the change in nick, cutting it short to Esty, seems to change things - I don't use the abbreviation in my official function.) Both Estelyn and H* are reticent about showing too much of their private side to others unless they feel safe.

It's easier to define the differences than the similarities, I think. I would agree with Saucepan that the online person has the advantage of proofreading conversations, so that mistakes made by spontaneous utterances are few and far between, hopefully. There's also a major difference in language - Estelyn writes in English, H* speaks German almost all of the time - that certainly influences the choice of words and sentence structure.

Estelyn writes a lot - H* very little. The latter tends to forget to answer e-mails and writes so few letters that she is surprised to find out that the price of postage has changed again. Her journal is written very erratically, and she never writes fiction. Estelyn is involved in RPGs and spends hours crafting posts for her characters; furthermore, she has even begun online journaling, with the result that there are more recent entries there than in her private, hand-written one.

The RPG Estelyn lives a much more adventurous life; though she has her home base in Minas Tirith as the Head Loremistress of the Library there, she travels a lot to gather stories. Actually, now that I think about it, that's a similarity - her real life creator likes to travel to gather impressions and ideas as well!

And then there's the chat Esty - she's a combination of H* and Estelyn - a bit more daring and less inhibited than in real life though, with a tendency to enjoy mild flirtation occasionally... ;)

So, to answer the question HI poses - is Estelyn a mask that H* wears? I would say not - she's just part of a personality that is much more complicated than can be shown online. (The older I get, the less inclined I am to put on a show for the benefit of the public.) But maybe there's a bit of a mask, for who can show a naked face to all of the world?!

[HerenIstarion]

That was a read, my lady, thank you :)

for who can show a naked face to all of the world?

Who can, indeed. Or, even, who can dig up said naked face to have something to show? All underlying layers seem masks as well sometimes...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Heren,

An interesting idea for a thread. I will reply later, but wanted to share one small thought with you concerning masks.

It seems to me that this isn't the only place in life where we wear masks. There are masks I wear on this site that may shield or modify certain aspects of my "real" personality, generally by choice. Yet out there in the "real" world, there are other masks I wear, which can be equally concealing. The latter can be by choice, by necessity, or sometimes merely by default, dictated by the particular situation I am in. So, in a strange way, there are pieces of "me" on this site involving writing and imagination that sometimes get hidden in real life except with family or very close friends. (And of course the opposite is also true.)

So where does the 'real' me lie? Perhaps in some combination that I have yet to achieve?

I sometimes wonder which Tolkien was more 'real' -- the dedicated scholar and family man of Carpenter's biography, whose life was 'hemmed in' by practical cares and necessities, or the Elf-friend who wandered freely in the land of Faerie?

A strange thought, but something to consider in responding to this thread. (And now Heren runs off to place a call to those doctors! :eek: )

[HerenIstarion]

Nay, Child, I'm not running away to doctors :D It is much as I feel. And it reminded me of situation given by C.S.Lewis', when he considers loss of friends (Probably in the Problem of Pain, but maybe in Four Loves rather, can't recall for sure now), using as an example late Charles Willians. It went something along the following lines "When Charles is gone, with him I loose that part of Ronald which was showing out only in reaction to Charles, so I loose not only Charles, but part of Ronald too, which will never be called upon if there are only two of us, instead of three before"

[mark12_30]

After reading Esty's post, there is at least one big difference for me: Helen doesn't get to talk about Tolkien anywhere near as often as mark does.

But they both "speak" first and "proofread" afterwards. Bad habit.

H-I, that quote about losing bits of a friend is pretty intense. It presupposes a three-way intimacy in platonic friendship, though, and I wonder how many of us have that? In band, yes, and in bible study, yes. Few other places. I'm not so aware of it here; perhaps I should be.

[HerenIstarion]

I was referring to 'real life', as in Child's post, Helen :)

But if one takes pains to dig it up, it may be seen here too. More so in RPGs, probably (though I do not play those, regrettable lack of time and imagination), but maybe it is explicit there in more literal way - without A's post the B's post would have been different, etc. But principle seems similar. And remember notorious Canonicity thread - without everybody posting, everybody would cease posting. But both examples fail short of the mark, it is more subtle, and I can not grasp the suiting analogy (BTW, another feat H-I is marked for more than GL - giving analogies for everything he says (writes))

So better remind myself of another great quote by J.R.R.T. - 'things might have been different, but they could bot have been better'

[Mithadan]

I am not Mithadan...or am I? (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Aelfwine)

[Lhundulinwen]

Me as an offline person, is much the same as Lhundulinwen the elf. Only the elven incarnation of me thinks much longer before saying something than I do. But my online hobbit self is the *cough, cough* inner demons magnified. Loved Harfoot only has one post, but she is much more like the person that only Jade of Mordor gets to see. (offline, anyway).
If you want to see the truest incarnation of myself, you should meet my Chatroom persona. Sam is me. Completely, 100% me. The good and the bad, you get it all on the chatroom.

[Lush]

Haha, Mithadan, you're such a tease.

I guess I'm as much of myself on this forum as I can be. I do like pink flowers in real life. I do listen to the Smiths. I am in love (whether with a man or an idea or an inanimate object, or a combination).

My nickname existed long before I joined the Barrowdowns, but in these post-high school days, the Barrowdowns has kept it alive, and for that, I am grateful.

I suppose when I am not on this forum and out in "real life", I am much more profane. And way more sensitive and whiny. A peculiar combination.

Otherwise, I can't really think of any major disguises I put on. I suppose I do a very poor job of protecting my privacy. Perhaps one day my unwilligness to do so shall bite me on the bum (it won't be able to pass up the opportunity), but I guess at this point I can't really do it any other way. It's all about the different strokes, you know?

Even more so, who's to say that forum persona is not just an extension of one's character, as opposed to an actual disguise?

[Son of Númenor]

My online persona talks much less colloquially (in real life I wouldn't have said "colloquially") than I do in real life, but I suppose that's probably true for 99.9% of the people here. As Saucepan Man said, in real life you can't proofread what you say.

I feel that what H-I said in his first post holds true for me:

"Come to think of it, are we really we when posting here? Forced to consider this, I can’t help noticing HerenIstarion does not equal George Lashkhi. Yes, they both sign my posts – one as an author, so he’s name goes above, and another signs it below, as to affirm we both participated, but I can’t help thinking of H-I as of different person. And I have a suspicion he is at once better person than GL finds himself to be, and worse in some other aspects. For one, H-I is more prone to the sin of vanity, but he is smarter, more polite and well-spoken and bolder than GL is."

Substitute Son of Númenor for HerenIstarion, and Nic for George Lashkhi, & you've got a rough idea of my relationship with my online self. I'm fairly certain that anyone here who has gotten to know me since I have joined would be surprised at my real life appearance & persona.

Every time I read a book, I read it in a voice that certainly isn't my own; it can be more intelligent & eloquent, or more witty, cynical & wry. I don't know if even the most carefully crafted of my posts can pass me off as possessing either of the former virtues to a really high degree, but nevertheless I hear that same voice when I read over any of my posts from more than a few days back.

I tried a funny, simple little test to see if I really associate my online persona with my real self: I said my screen name aloud. "Son of Númenor." "Son of Númenor." Nope, I thought. He isn't me. He is parts of me, yes, & in some posts I come through in his writing moreso than in others, but nonetheless he has not been fully assimilated into (& is not a firm representation/mirror image of) the persona of Nic.

[Firefoot]

Interesting thread. For me, I feel that my personality is much more like Firefoot than my real-world counterpart. They are similar, but often times I feel my true personality shows through on the Internet more than in real-life.(in real life I wouldn't have said "colloquially") That's sort of the way I feel. The way I think and post is much different than the way I talk. Again, this is partly because I can proofread what I write, but it is also because on the rare occasions when I do talk the way I think it sounds strange even to myself.

So I suppose all this is to say that on the Barrow-downs I am more like me than I am in real-life, if that makes sense. I doubt many people would recognize me in real-life.

[Ophelia]

Me and Ophelia are quite the same , but still I like to refer to Ophelia as a persone - the part of me evrybody in the internet know me by and the part they think of when seeing my nickname , all gathered under one title - Ophelia . But to tell you the truth - internet is the place I will never get the chance to be myself . And all because there are these limits called rules all over the internet (I`m not saying it is bad or anything , I`m just making a statement) . Like , I swear a lot in real life (a bad habit I could never get rid of) and even though it causes laughing mostly I admit it could sound rude to others and I do respect that , but still - it is a part of me which this Ophelia person doesn`t possess . And now that , dear fellow Barrow Downers , is where me and Ophelia already become two different people . Now imagine - if a little thing like that splits me and ... basically myself in to two different parts than I must say - I halfly agree to this mask theory . Halfly because it is still me and Ophelia doesn`t possess any specifics of charecter that I wouldn`t have but still - it gathers mostly only the best side of me , which you shan`t see in a clear way like this in the real life . So it is some sort of a mask afterall . The mask that gives the ability to hide the bad sides and bring out mostly the best , still not denying the fact of the existance of flaws , just not mentioning this fact .

The Person Behind Ophelia

[Mad Baggins]

Mad Baggins is much like my real-life persona. Although I am much like Son of Numenor and Firefoot; I rarely speak the way I post. But in the way of humour and language style, I am very much like Mad Baggins. I'm quite mad, too. :)

[Sirithheruwen]

Well, Sirithheruwen and M***** (to borrow Esty's idea) are pretty similar except for a few minor things. Sirith is a better writer than I am. Sirith is also wittier than I am. I would say "bolder," but I have bumped that up significantly this year now that I've found true friends. (Real life stressing, just ignore that.) So, all in all, M.'s pretty much the same as Sirith.

[Durelin]

Durelin and...Rachel? Which one do ya think is more imposing?

First of all, I must agree with much of what has been said, especially the fact that I am able to edit posts and take my time to think makes me seem so much smarter.

I am not a person of words. I am more likely to answer some thoughtful discussion in real life with a few 'errs' and then perhaps a 'yeah, I think so', or a 'maybe', or even a 'no, I don't think so'. But when asked to elaborate, many more 'errs' would follow. This is especially true when my tongue is especially caught. I am much more likely to think of a word when my fingers hover above a keyboard than when my mouth is working and my tongue hesitating.

I also have never been a leader. I don't like to give people orders, simply for the fear that I may be wrong (a horrifying thought that makes my tongue hesitate quite often) and that people may not like it if I take charge.

Even Durelin can struggle with many of these things, showing how weak I am in these areas. But how Durelin is able to make comments without fear of rebuke, embarrassment, fault, etc., goes to show how unreal a community this is. Now this may sound harsh, but it's not supposed to feel like a big family, or even a group of classmates or workmates. (Or is it...?)

Part of what helps make it so different a way of communicating than speaking to a person, whether directly or over the phone (Or a mic, thanks to scary technology). For one thing, this doesn't work in real time. We have time to formulate posts, even one-liners, and time to edit, time to think about other people's posts... It is amazing how different it can be to see words rather than just hear them or say them. For myself, I am very glad that the words I say are not as permanent as the ones I write or type.

I my mind, Durelin is a simpler person, and, so, in a way, a better person. There are faults that do not show when I type as Durelin (I don't think they do, at least.), and I think becoming Durelin for a bit improves the much less interesting 'Rachel behind the mask'. This may seem a bit much for an online nickname I like to think of myself as, but taking time to discuss things with more thought doesn't just aid you in posting on message boards.

Right, so Durelin is not Rachel, a 14 (almost 15!) year old girl who doesn't plan on getting much older, for obvious reasons. ;)

-Durelin (Or am I?) :p

You know it does make you wonder...who am I right now?

[Kransha]

Hoho, I feel suddenly as if I hold great power. Am I the only one here with more than two egos in alteration! Ah, I see so far that I may be. How very...intriguing...yes.

As said, I am multi-scizophrenic. Kransha is my online personality, and Mattvae Mikhaelovich Sergeiov Omordova Heimovitz is one of the two I use in reality (that, if you'd like to know is not my real name, but it would have been if I still lived the Old Country [more reminiscing]). My final is M****** (copyright carefully avoided). Kransha is, for one, an orc, which I most certainly am not. I know not why he is an orc, he merely is. On other forums which I register on, he is still an orc, even if said forum has nothing to do with Tolkein or orcs of any kind. He is, however, an intelligent orc. He fancies himself as a bit of a oligarch, not pompous, but very humorous, gentile, not condescending, but full of bombastic vocabulary and opinions. If you've read the BD-Birthday Party Thread of late, you might understand some of Kransha's noble ideosynchrasies.

His Ruske counterpart is most of my undesirable traits, but plated as good. MMSOH (as I've come to call him), IS condescending in his attitude. He is tyranical, oppressive, overbearing, argumentative, and temperemental. He is also a boyar of pre-communist Russia and the dictator of the small but fiesty country of Combatsylvania, inhabited by the belligerent Combatsylvanian Myrmidons. Trust me, I have no idea in all Arda why he is thus, he simply is. He always comes out sparingly, mostly in heated arguments. He is helpful because he has more confidence than the other two, and I admit that I have let him type for me once or twice, but very little, and I often let Kransha bowdlerize each of his 'contributions.'

The third is, simply put, me. He's a bit Kransha, a bit MMSOH, a bit Napolean, a dash of Saruman, a slice of Merry Brandybuck, a pinch of Abe Lincoln, and a squirt of Mahatma Ghandi. He's all of that rolled into one, neat, utterly chaotic package. I would never let this persona loose on these forums. Though it shames me that I must hide him in the so-called "real" world, but I must. He's far too liberal, too simple, too flawed. My mask is not a complicated one, just one thar keeps my alternate egos from warring like an unkempt band of hydra heads, so to speak.

Post Script: For those of you who care to know, or commented, I had to let MMSOH decide a few things about my online identity, so I allowed him to dictate my avatar. As this has been spoken of in the past, I thought I might make it clear that all thanks, criticism, or banana peels, should be directed to the Combatsylvanian League of Manageable Receptionists, P.O. Box 1337, Picklesworth, VA.

[Beren87]

Beren is Matt at his most bored.

[Imladris]

I must say that Imladris is kind of like me. Actually, my normal self is more revealed and slightly exaggerated online because I am protected from you all by a faceless computer screen that cannot interrupt me, cannot roll their eyes at me, cannot smirk at my stupidity, etc.

I am far less bold in real life than I am here...and even here I am not all that bold.

[HerenIstarion]

Hoho, I feel suddenly as if I hold great power. Am I the only one here with more than two egos in alteration! Ah, I see so far that I may be. How very...intriguing...yes.

Kransha, you forget that there are five wizards of quite different disposition, powers and mindsets behind my nickname :p

Mith, 'mithology' is quite a word, I like it :)

Durelin

but it's not supposed to feel like a big family, or even a group of classmates or workmates

I don't think it is. But this is as close to friendship as virtual thing may come to it. For one, we all share one common interest, that is, Tolkien. Than, there are a lot of inner smaller rings, expressing themselves by who and where is mainly to be found. And looking at familiar nicks for a lengthy period of time, the affection comes in. I miss my fellow every time I'm away from my PC. Sure, I miss discussion, chance to express myself in a way I like, but I also miss those whom I express myself to. And not only because they are my audience, and I'm theirs, for I enjoy reading as much as writing, but because I find them (or at least them as they appear under their nicks) [i]good in themselves, and wonder sometimes how lucky I am to have those great people around me who are able, maybe, of dragging me up to their level (did I mention 'mutual admiration society' already?)

And to an extent, it does not matter that they may be different in 'real life'. For one, I, probably, would never have chance to find out. For another, when we communicate here, it is their 'mask' that counts, and they (or should I say - me?) are transformed into persons defined by their nicks. So this is davem, Child, Mhoram I know, not David, Helen or [another] David, but it does not matter as far as we communicate online

I would be glad to meet you IRL (there was a whole thread by Esty (or Estelyn? :)) about meeting of fellow BD-ers. But those people you meet IRL are somehow more, and other than, people who's gender, age and name are unknown unless revealed, but whom one is strongly attached to on the simple basis of their writing.

[mark12_30]

Alas, more than one tale tells that meeting IRL ruined the online friendship. If the relationship is writing-based, then rather than ruin the online writing chemistry, better to maintain the mask.

I do have cherished exceptions! But I think I have companions here that I would rather NOT meet in person, because the possibility of losing the online friendship outweighs the potential gain of a single meeting IRL.

[davem]

Speaking of meeting IRL, is anyone planning on on being at Tolkien 2005 in Birmingham (UK), August 11th-15th next year? Guests to include Verlyn Flieger, Tom Shippey, Brian Sibley, Ted Naismith & (possibly) Alan Lee.

Info at:

http://www.tolkiensociety.org/2005/about.html

Should be amazing, possibly the biggest thing Tolkien-wise for the foreseeable future.

[Nurumaiel]

But I think I have companions here that I would rather NOT meet in person, because the possibility of losing the online friendship outweighs the potential gain of a single meeting IRL.

Me? :( :p

But I see how you feel. I would rather meet those people online who I feel aren't wearing a mask, because otherwise I won't feel like it's them and I'll lose them.

As far as I'm able to gather, Nurumaiel is (copying Esty) C****. Both write and love it, both love large families, both are Catholics, both love music (in particular Irish and Scottish ballads), and so on and so forth. There are some differences, though. Let me see if I can name them...

1) Nurumaiel doesn't mind talking with anyone and can talk at great length to people she doesn't even know. She doesn't mind speaking her loveliest thoughts and doesn't feel embarrassed and being rather old-fashioned. C**** can only talk beyond mere courtesy to certain people, that is 'kindred spirits' who won't laugh at her. She's rather shy... well, very shy, except to those 'kindred spirits.' She isn't embarrassed at being old-fashioned but more concious of it.

2) Nurumaiel writes about Middle-Earth and the inhabitants. C**** hardly ever writes about Middle-Earth and stick to completely original works.

3) Nurumaiel is usually rather calm and not too insane. C**** gets hyper often, particulary after drinking anything red-colored or on the return from a baseball game. More than once she has 'gone Frodo' and hopped up on a table to sing a song.

4) Nurumaiel doesn't talk too much about sports (with exceptions... I've discussed baseball with one Downer before). C**** goes to young lads' baseball games, helps the young lads practice, and is an avid Notre Dame Fighting Irish fan.

5) Nurumaiel doesn't talk too much about cooking or gardening. C**** cooks and is rather good at it, unless she's being told so out of courtesy. C**** also gardens and is very successful at it. It's odd, though, how the day after the tomato plant was put in the ground the deer somehow knew it was there and for the first time ever came into our front yard.....

6) Nurumaiel is an Elf; C**** is mainly hobbit and a little Rohirric.

7) Nurumaiel is usually rather meek and willing to take advice, and doesn't mind giving in to what others suggest. C****, alas, is very stubborn and thinks she knows what she's doing all the time. C**** has a hint of pride and doesn't like to lose in an argument to anyone British or anyone who doesn't come from the Highlands. She may like them, she may love them, but she does not want to have them win over her own Irish ancestry and her Highland blood. ;) Actually, she usually doesn't care that much and she's joking when she says that now.

8) This is the biggest difference of all, I fancy. Nurumaiel is dead, very dead. Nurumaiel has been rotting for over a year. C**** is very, very much alive.

The differences are few, but there are some things I'd like to dispose of in C**** (the stubborness, for example) and imitate Nurumaiel instead.

[Amanaduial the archer]

I am not Mithadan...or am I? (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Aelfwine)
Mithadan, I do believe you just shamelessly plugged your site. Ah, how the great have fallen...;) Kidding, reading this thread I was about to do it myself....

I was thinking about this some time ago when musing on my RPG characters - I figure I must have broken some sort of record in number of split personalities... 'Myself and Aman' aren't the same though - there are some major differences between us. For one thing, she's somewhat more outgoing, seems to know what she's talking about when writing about Tolkien, and is far, far more organised! Oh, and then there's the fact that Aman was my first RPG character - and...dead...

Interestingly though, if people are so very different: look at the 'What do you think your fellow barrowdowners look like' thread, and see how many of the descriptions match - it's quite interesting, seeing that actually, from what you post, the people you're around on the internet can actually conjure up a somewhat accurate image of you.

[Durelin]

Oh, and then there's the fact that Aman was my first RPG character - and...dead...


Oh yeah, I am dead....and a different gender? :p

Speaking of conjuring up images, that has never been possible for me. I see people in a certain way, but never have I found them to look as I thought they would. And then, of course, it takes me a good while to adjust to how they look. Perhaps I am just not doing enough to get to know people around here...

But this is as close to friendship as virtual thing may come to it.

I definitely disagree with that. There are members, even incredibly active ones, that I have not posted with or even seen a post authored by them. I'm sorry, but I cannot feel a bond of friendship without seeing more clearly people's emotions. 12 smilies only go so far! ;)

You know...I certainly hope no one has come up with an accurate image of me. :D Speaking of ruining an online relationship...

Durelin is me when my head doesn't hurt.

[Son of Númenor]

Originally posted by Durelin:
"I definitely disagree with that. There are members, even incredibly active ones, that I have not posted with or even seen a post authored by them."

I think H-I meant specifically the people that he has interacted with and developed a friendship with through the Barrow-downs. Of course not everyone knows each other well/gets along well in such a vast public forum as this. This isn't Mister Rogers's neighborhood.

;)

[the phantom]

Interesting thread, H-I.

Let's compare the phantom and Philip. I suppose the biggest difference is Philip talks about sports, church, school, Star Wars, and women much more than the phantom, but TP doesn't talk about them because he's on a Tolkien forum, so I don't think that difference really matters.
H-I is more prone to the sin of vanity
That is not the case with me. TP can definitely be vain sometimes, but Philip is a complete narcissist, so it makes sense.
but he is smarter, more polite and well-spoken and bolder
Philip and TP have equal boldness and intelligence (unless you think TP is stupid, in which case Philip is much smarter). Philip might be a bit more polite than TP. After all, TP never has to see anyone face to face so he doesn't care if he angers them. Of course he certainly doesn't try to anger people. He prefers, like Philip, to be on good terms with everyone.

Maybe I've missed something but as far as I can tell the phantom is pretty much the same as Philip.

[Diamond18]

I'm more outspoken and considerably crazier online, but that's only because I often wear a mask of inscrutability in my so called real life.

[Saraphim]

What is this enigma that is Saraphim? Is it simply a misspelled word that Kira thought looked nice in print and then spelled wrong on the sign-in form? Does Saraphim reflect the person behind her, or does Kira reflect Saraphim?

Or are they the same, a gawky kid who is just as Tolkien-fanatacized whether on the Downs or sitting at a computer?

Meh.

[Diamond18]

You shouldn't have admitted that. :p I'd have just assumed that your name was "Sara" and it was a clever play on names. :)

[Maeggaladiel]

Today on "Behind the Mask," we examine a peculiar specimen of Wight known among the Barrow Downs as Maeggaladiel of the Four Eyes.

Althought the so-called "President" of the questionable Society of Nearsighted Elves, careful research has proven that the creature who claims to be Maeggaladiel is actually human.

Where "Maeg" is talkative and spontaneous, her offline counterpart is quiet and tranquil. The OTHER Maeg spends her time drawing and writing, whereas BD Maeg spends it staring at pictures and making up captions for them, or claiming that she is dead.

Although Maeggaladiel claims to be a fan of Figwit, her alter-ego drools over Orlando, Johnny Depp, Hugh Jackman, Antonio Banderas, Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, Harrisson Ford (when he was younger), Cary Ewles (in Princess Bride), Matthew Modine (See "Cuthroat Island" for details) and a variety of other actors who make up what is known in her household as "THE LIST." You should all be glad that she refrains from speaking of THE LIST while on the Downs.

Offline Maeg likes a variety of films that she does not discuss on the Downs, from VanHelsing to Pirates of the Carribbean to French Kiss to Ten Things I Hate About You. (She just remembered that Heath Ledger is also on THE LIST.)

She is indeed nearsighted, and has astigmatism in her right eye.

NEXT TIME ON "UNMASKED": MODERATORS: DEMONIC UNDEAD OBSERVERS OR NORMAL GUYS WITH TOO MUCH TIME ON THEIR HANDS?

Heh heh!!! (Dodges as Pio, the BW, and Bethberry throw things at Maeg)

[Saraphim]

No, Diamond. I'm not nearly that clever.:D


Anyway, I have recently asked my friend to look at a thread I participated in on the Downs and pick which poster I was. He couldn't. Therefore, it is only plausable to assume that Saraphim is a different person than Kira.

Or maybe, my insomniacal friend was too tired to tell the difference.

At any rate, props to Maeg for a super-funny post!

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Hmm...

Aylwen is a thirty-something innkeeper. Aylwen's offline counterpart is just turning fifteen this Saturday and works as a student. I feel like I'm more...stubborn and assertive in real life. Offline I feel more like a leader in that I always make sure everyone is on task and that everyone (including myself!) is doing their work to bring a project together. Aylwen sometimes needs a little nudging, and is affected by a more outgoing RL persona. Mallory likes to run (as a sport) in her free time...Aylwen just stands behind a bar and yells at people. Aylwen tends to follow the rules of the place she roams about (the Barrow-Downs) while Mallory tends to be a bit more...crazy and spontaneous, I'm told. ;)

However, both Mallory and Aylwen like music. :D Neither of them have died yet (Aman!), so they are similar in that respect as well.

-Innkeeper/Student:)

[Lhunardawen]

Now I am rather confused myself as to who is really sitting in front of the computer right now. :)

*takes a deep breath*

Lhunardawen is a myopic Halfelven queen who likes to think she is quite as mature as she wants to be. But behind the royal spectacles, Abby (who is bespectacled herself) is merely a 15-year-old Tolkien fan who desires to discuss Middle Earth with others who share her interest, finding none as intensely addicted as her (except for her brother, Nilpaurion Felagund). The Barrow-Downs, for this reason, feels like home to her. As Abby can be very trusting and easily opens up to others, Lhunardawen cannot be so because of obvious reasons. But all the same, both of them can be very crazy one minute and serious the next.

And Abby can be very insane, doing something as silly as talking to her stuffed seal (as she is doing right now). :D

[Eowyn Skywalker]

...Hmmm... am I really me? You'll never know... maybe I am really Eowyn Skywalker, and I really do have Luke Skywalker's lightsaber, and... well, my title is a paragraph long... and I can't remember it all. But then, maybe I'm NOT. Hm... who'd ever know? Maybe I'm actually a computer here, trying to discover the secrets of the hidden pathes of the Barrow-downs... maybe I'm a Jedi, who somehow made it to Earth. Maybe I'm an Elf, though I'd be more inclinded to say Hobbit here.

No, Eowyn Skywalker is very much like me... though she's a bit... stranger. Yeah... well... actually... I can be as odd as her... plus. Snrk.

I would say, indeed, that I am Eowyn Skywalker, and she is me. But you'll never know that... *laughs evilly*

Well, of course we do have many things in common, as both Eowyn Skywalker and I write, love Anakin... yeah, we must be pretty simular... I would say that I am Eowyn Skywalker, and, if I wanted to, could get away as her in real life... I even have the right costumes... and a lightsaber. I think I am me... hmmm... but what else would I be?

-Eowyn Skywalker

[Joy]

Well, Joy is me and I am Joy :)

I pretty much talk the way I write, except for the fact that I get to proof-read here.

[The Perky Ent]

Well, quite frankly, The Perky Ent is a whole lot smarter than ******(sorry, it will always be a mystery of time). Although, I'm probably a lot more interesting. Perky is basically the same, just a little more perky ;)

[Eowyn Skywalker]

I will swear that I am Eowyn Skywalker, just with a different name... if only I had a picture of myself at the moment to show and prove myself with... I'm sitting her, wearing a cape, and a lightsaber... no wait, I'm Tiana the Padawan at the moment, I'll become Eowyn Skywalker tommorow, as I had to keep my Eowyn dress clean for church... sigh. So I'm not quite Eowyn Skywalker at the moment, I'm Tiana the Padawan, but she is actually just Eowyn S. in disguise... no, none of you will ever understand my mind.

The only difference is that Eowyn Skywalker is well... a Skywalker... and I'm not married to Anakin in real life... sigh... ****** is not married, she is too young, and doesn't care either...

-Eowyn Skywalker

[HerenIstarion]

Thanks for all the entries, lads and lassies, it was great to learn a bit more about you, besides and behind of what shows up on the screen. The next direction I’m keen on pushing the thread to is mainly due to impression I’ve got whilst reading (and thinking, yeh, me sometimes does that too) your postings. To use old cliche, are you (me, we) butterflies who dream they are philosophers, or vice versa, philosophers sometimes thinking they are butterflies? I know, that is quite battered question, but it is very interesting how it is refracted in each an individual case

What I termed like mask in the beginning of the thread is better re-termed as ‘role’, I suppose. For it comes down to masks upon masks when one takes a closer look. And there is no telling which one is the ‘true’ one. Let me clarify myself - I’ve got an impression we all (or almost all?) are playing games here. Verily, if you are not you as you are elsewhere, it is because you are playing, assuming a role? But that’s what I (we?) do all the time in so called ‘real’ life too. People seem flexible enough to assume roles whilst reacting to other people, and it seems they usually guess what is the role which is expected from them readily. But if each and every moment of one’s life one is ‘acting’, who is to say which pose is more real and important? And here we are down to essence of this post:

I know that comparison is what usually makes things hot. The usual way of praising poet, alas, is to dig up some other poet and say: this dude is better that that one. But I always felt there is something wrong, merely incorrect, about that way. So I won’t ask you if you consider one more important than another. I just would like to know if you consider your virtual role important at all, and in what way.

To give a personal example I may risk sounding a bit mental, but I would like to confess that daily (that is, when I can afford it, which I try, I do) visit I pay you here is as important (and when some livid discussion is on even more important, as I would not do discussing on the expense of my office hours, if it were not so) to me as my job, as my ‘real time’ friends, and many things more. After all, nobody but you fellows is keen on discussing Tolkien and they feel unsure of their footing when I try to have a go at them with some abstruse piece of applicability issue with regards of orkish soul and original sin. But however distinct H-I and GL may seem, it was a bit of a joke to say they are different persons, so I better rewrite it to say – H-I and GL are both parts of what I call ‘me’ – i.e. strange bunch of feelings, memories, thoughts, odd knowledge and ambition, which would feel incomplete, if the niche were not filled with Barrow Downs

[Saraphim]

One of the most startling sensations I have felt recently is that Saraphim is smarter than Kira. I put this down to the fact that I write better than I speak, but it is a sensation nonetheless.

Today, while together with my 'real-time' friends (as you put it, H-I:D ), one of them remarked how odd it was; that I had not mentioned the Barrow-Downs for the duration of our time, which was quite a few hours.

I realized that Saraphim had become so rooted within me that even my friends in the non-url world miss her when she is on holiday.

Most of them are not Tolkien fans, though some are. It is rare, however, that I saw something LotR related that they understand. I find a place to vent my love for the nice books with all of you people, whom I have never really met or know much about, and yet I feel as if I do know some of you. I value my time on the Downs as much as I value my time with my friends.

I like this niche very much indeed.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Feanor of the Peredhil is not an act, exactly, but she is more of a well thought-out two-dimensional image of L*. I know that all you know about me is what Fea tells you, so I limit what Fea is *aware* of. Fea is very important to me, because we share great interests:

We both love Lord of the Rings. Fea and I both have great stores of pointless knowledge. Feanor and I are both writers. We are both confident in what we are saying. We are both artists, we both like kids, we both love animals, and are both excellent students.

On the other hand, I see Fea as a completely different person than L*.

Fea listens to classical music, and L* is a metal-head. Fea doesn't ever lose her temper, and L*'s is notorious. Fea can't be touched by stress, and L* is a full to bursting with it, as calm as she may seem to people who don't know her well. Fea has infinate patience, while L* just wants to be in the moment, enjoying life to its fullest (while still following rules she sets for herself.)

Feanor of the Peredhil is who I am when I am involved in art, be it music, reading, writing, or studio-style artwork. She is L*, but she is a more concise form of L*. When I am reading, lost in another world; when I am drawing, lost in my own creation; when I am listening to or playing music, caught up in the melody; that is when I am Feanor of the Peredhil. It is my extreme calm that nothing can break, Feanor is the serene part of me that shows when my imagination and creativity is flowing, which brings me to my other point:

We all have "masks" on The 'Downs, but we all have masks for everything else that we do as well. It is absolutely impossible to show people everything, so you must choose carefully what you want somebody to see. That's why first impressions are so nerve-wracking. You wouldn't walk up to the current leader of a small country and say "Yep, I voted for the other guy." You find things that you have in common, and you show the person THAT side of you. People have given me [many] nicknames, and I've come to see most of them as aspects of myself. I AM all of these people, all of the time, but they each show most clearly at certain times.

When I am with my friends, completely comfortable with who I am, and what I'm saying (meaning whatever comes to mind), I am L*. I'm not putting on a front, I am not showing them what they want to see, I'm showing them every bit of me that pops up, and because they are my friends, they do want to see L*.

You guys see me as Fea. You see the part of me that contains all of my arcane knowledge, and you see my carefully contemplated thoughts about stuff beyond every-day things.

My grandparents see L--- (a different L*). They see the student, the class president, the polite youngster. I don't show them the angsty, stressed out artist with a penchant for Ben and Jerry's and video games, because they don't want to see that, nor would they understand it if they did.

We show other people the parts of us that they will best understand and appreciate. I don't speak with my full vocabulary in school, because most of my peers would have no clue what I'm talking about. I don't talk about relationships with my father, or explosives with my mother. My brothers don't hear about girl issues, because they JUST WOULDN'T GET IT. My "mask" of Feanor of the Peredhil is the part of me that I think will be appreciated here at The Barrowdowns. I sincerely hope that made some amount of sense...

Feanor of the Peredhil (or am I?)

[Lhunardawen]

You have said what's exactly on my mind, HerenIstarion, only I couldn't have said it better.

I would say that Lhunardawen is some aspects of Abby redefined, which actually made me as a whole better, since through Lhunardawen I have been able to express myself relatively better than when she has not yet existed (thanks to proofreading). But sometimes Lhunardawen appears to people outside the Downs, and I get disappointed when only a few understand what she says. So I guess Lhunardawen is best kept in the Downs. Or maybe not. She will continue to haunt her real friends. *evil laugh*

[Evisse the Blue]

That is to say, if ever, by an unfortunate twist of fate, your parents have to sell your computer, or there is a Net crash or this site goes off line, it would mean we lose this integral part of ourselves that is our Barrowdowns persona. So this has become for most of us more than just a forum you check out for the fun of it, from time to time, it has become....how shall I put it...personal. Maybe we need to prove to ourselves we're smarter, more interesting than our off-line selves, who go to their job/their school, hang around in pubs making small talk, or whatever else flips your fancy. ;) Because when we log on here, we get a feeling we're doing something special, we're sharing our passion and we're discussing the really important things. It's not only like a reward you give yourelf at the end of the day, when, too tired after 8 hours at work, you come home to stuff yourself and automatically turn on the TV. It's a way of proving yourself there's more to life. There [/I]is[I] more to life. There's the haven also known as Middle Earth Fun and Games, with the Quiz Room, and Quotable Quotes, the Books forum if you're feeling scholarly, and not to forget, Middle Earth Mirth. When we arrive here (me and my multiple personalities ;) ) B******** steps back and takes a break, and Evisse the Blue comes out to play.

[Eowyn Skywalker]

In a way, that might be true, the Barrow-downs IS a part of us now... now that we have became these people... these personas that are not the same as those in our real lives. And yet, though, I could live without the Barrow-downs, because, even as Eowyn Skywalker is a part of me... a great part of me, so is T****. I cannot live without her in me.

Sure, when I first ran into the Barrow-downs... I NEVER would've joined a forum, and spent time on the main site instead, but, as I started with the fanfiction, I joined with the fanfiction forum. I do not know how Eowyn Skywalker came to be, but SOMEHOW the name came up, and Eowyn Skywalker was born into the world of the Barrow-downs, as I soon decided to join with the main forums too. With that, I became Eowyn Skywalker online. She was me, and I was her.

As I became more and more into the internet.. to the point of creating my own little... ish... forum, Eowyn Skywalker became a greater part of me, changing T**** to fit with Eowyn Skywalker's ideals. I became her, there was no way to escape it. I can't escape her now, she speaks through me in real life now... if you were to meet me, sure, you would have trouble believing that I am the girl behind Eowyn Skywalker, but yet, you wouldn't. After an hour, Eowyn Skywalker's personality would show through, and you'd know me for who I am.

Online, it's easier for people to believe that I am Eowyn Skywalker... in fact, I have been told by people who I told who I really was, that they never would've guesses that my real name wasn't Eowyn Skywalker, because I play her so well.

In a way, I am her, and she is me, but yet, not. If I had to leave the internet behind, I assume that slowly, Eowyn Skywalker, Tiana the E-Padawan, and Lady Vader, my internet personas, they would slowly disappear, and I wouldn't have this annoying addentitiy problem any longer.

I suppose the problem is that Eowyn Skywalker has became too much of me, I cannot imagine leaving her behind anymore.

Sigh... I'm turning into a regular Gollum\Smeagol now... giggle. But I don't hide behind the name anymore, like I did in the beginning, because Eowyn Skywalker has became me.

...whoa... long post... tee hee.

-Eowyn Skywalker

[Sirithheruwen]

Well, I'm with you on that one Eowyn Skywalker! Sirith, Blissfully Unaware, LI, Lady Jade, and Monkey are all a big part of M*****.

Sirith is the smart Tolkien freak, Blissfully Unaware is the angsty part of me, LI and Lady Jade are the more sophisticated (and dare I say it, British) parts of me, and Monkey is the funky, wild part of me. On the internet, each personality comes out depending on where I am at the moment. In "real life" (just pretend for the moment that I have a life) all of them are smooshed together into M*****.

Sirith, Blissfully Unaware, LI, Lady Jade, and Monkey are all M***** and M***** is, well, um...you get the picture. :rolleyes:

[Nurumaiel]

Verily, if you are not you as you are elsewhere, it is because you are playing, assuming a role? But that?s what I (we?) do all the time in so called ?real? life too.

Heren, but would this really be putting on a mask, assuming a role, pretending you're an entirely different personality, or would this merely be showing more one aspect of your personality that you think the particular group of people will enjoy most? I don't like to put on a mask whether in 'real' life or online; I feel as though I'm denying myself in a way. But I do focus on letting on aspect of my personality show more than another. Here, on the Barrow-Downs, I let my love for Tolkien and his works show more than I do in 'real' life because that's what the place is about. At a baseball game I show more of my love for baseball, and while singing in choir I show more my love of singing and music. But none of these are different roles, they are me but different parts of me brought forth more in that situation than in another situation. Perhaps this is what you are saying but then 'mask' would be an inappropriate word because it is something one hides behind. Assuming a role gives the impression of 'putting on an act.' What would be the correct word for what I'm trying to say?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Fantastic thread Heren. :)

It is not Eomer and his alter-ego that change between the Downs and the so-called 'real world'. Rather, it is his surroundings. In 'real life' he is surrounded by fools and idiots (with a few exceptions) and on the Downs he is surrounded by a bunch of wonderfully witty and fun and intelligent people.

That is how he sees it anyway.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

It is not Eomer and his alter-ego that change between the Downs and the so-called 'real world'. Rather, it is his surroundings. In 'real life' he is surrounded by fools and idiots (with a few exceptions) and on the Downs he is surrounded by a bunch of wonderfully witty and fun and intelligent people.

That is so true. I'm the same person here as I am in real life, I even have the same name, but it is the people around me that are so different. I wouldn't go that far to say that I'm surrounded by fools and idiots (although sometimes I am), but in real life I'm dealing with people who have no interest in Tolkien whatsoever.
So, the real Mariska enjoys Tolkien's books on her own, and luckely has the Downs for that matter, but for the rest of my "real life", I have enough to do that doesn't involve Middle Earth, and honestly, I lilke it that way.

[The Only Real Estel]

Well, I suppose the real me is less out-spoken in real life, to a certain degree ;). Estel really is pretty close to me in real life.

It is not Eomer and his alter-ego that change between the Downs and the so-called 'real world'. Rather, it is his surroundings. In 'real life' he is surrounded by fools and idiots (with a few exceptions) and on the Downs he is surrounded by a bunch of wonderfully witty and fun and intelligent people.

I have to agree here (mostly). Although I've got plenty of friends in my 'real life', only 5 or 6 are really all that in to lotr, the others will only talk about it for a certain amount of time. Then there are also quite a few others that near the description of 'fools & idiots'; whereas everyone here is so awesome :D

[Oddwen]

Who was Oddwen? If you read my random stories, that is the first Oddwen.

I, on the other hand, was quiet, shy, and calm.

Oddwen started to grow once I found the BD's and Crazy Scenes, and by the time that was finished she was almost an adult. And then she got quieter, shy-er, and scared.

And I developed a smart mouth, and an insane attitude.

So, am I becoming Oddwen, or is Oddwen becoming me?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maybe it is a bit harsh to call everyone 'fools and idiots'. The feeling is due to the fact that I only really notice the fools and idiots, whereas the good people (who probably are the majority) usually fit nicely into the background and are taken for granted.

But there really are some days where I despair for humanity. There are a number of ways to deal with those feelings. Listen to the Flaming Lips, for example. ;)

[Elennar Starfire]

When it first began, Elennar was K******. But as Elennar grew and evolved, she dragged K****** along. So at first Elennar was K******, then K****** became Elennar!

[Gorwingel]

Well Gorwingel is me :cool:

In real life I am a terrible writer (which is quite strange because I do frequent a forum where I am required to write), I am extremely shy, and I do enjoy talking about LOTR. I think though in real life I do tend to like to talk more about the films. So I guess you could say that my online persona is a wannabe Tolkien philosopher (which I am most definitely not).

The great thing though about the Internet is that you can check your posts (which much of the time I do not), and you also don't have to pronounce the names of the characters. I think sometimes when I do mispronounce one of their names people think I am an idiot.

But then I also highly doubt that if you saw me walk down the street you would immediately think that I was a Tolkien fan. I tend to go incognito in a way, and I don't even go in costume to the conventions.

So in life I am the way I am in this forum. I am the quiet person in the back that occasionally pipes up, occasionally embarrasses themselves, but is always polite and well behaved.

[Saraphim]

But there really are some days where I despair for humanity.
This is very true. Just today, In fact, while dealing with a particularly annoying specimen, I found myself wishing that life was like the Barrow-Downs, where if one repeatedly made idiotic statements with no attempt at discussion, one would be dealt with in the necessary fashion. Without the dealer being fired for speaking her mind.

If that makes sense...

Anyway, Back on topic. I was at the library today and someone said something about "seraphim".

I said, (quite loudly too, it was rather embarrassing) "What?"

I think I have officially become myself...

[Carlas]

Well Carlas is M.S. at her most quiet.

Carlas is just one of my many personalities, the shy and quiet one. She was a bit more open when she first joined the Downs but now has become quiet and content to just float around in the backround. M.S on the other hand is just...weird. A crazy 15-year-old who enjoys life to the fullest and isn't afraid to be heard. She can be quiet sometimes, but that's just Carlas starting to creep to the surface.

Oh well, maybe M.S. will make her appearance some day! :D

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Wouldn't it be awesome if, any time someone did say or do something moronic and annoying, the Giant Figure of The Barrow Wight appeared in the sky and squished them into the ground.

And then said; "Closed."

:D

[Saraphim]

Wow, Eomer. You've just stated my dream in life.

It is not Eomer and his alter-ego that change between the Downs and the so-called 'real world'. Rather, it is his surroundings. In 'real life' he is surrounded by fools and idiots (with a few exceptions) and on the Downs he is surrounded by a bunch of wonderfully witty and fun and intelligent people.
This is true for me too. I do, as I mentioned before, have friends off of the Downs. Good ones, too. But most of them have so much frilly drama-type problems that I just couldn't be bothered to involve myself in, no matter how much some of them want me to be.

Not that I don't care, of course. But I find myself thinking about the Downs and what I'm going to do on the RPG, or about my next Chapter-by-Chapter post, as my friend is going on (and on and on) about her love life.

If I didn't have the Downs and Saraphim, I'd go insane.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Indeed, it mostly concerns different interests. I am fortunate enough to have the required number of friends who love Tolkien like I do in order to have spent several great nights in pubs (well, one pub in particular) discussing obscure Tolkien debates into the small hours of the night (one such discussion on the greatness of Elrond was particularly heated!).

All too often though, I have been in situations where other people keep going on and on and on and on about things that I really don't care about (particularly during family gatherings where my mother and her sisters manage to talk about their extended family for hours on end). And, as Saraphim so rightly suggests, neither do I care for insipid 'romantic' tales, so I tend to drift into my Barrow-Downs persona quite a lot when I am surrounded by other people.

[HerenIstarion]

Wouldn't it be awesome if, any time someone did say or do something moronic and annoying, the Giant Figure of The Barrow Wight appeared in the sky and squished them into the ground.

And then said; "Closed.

Funny, sure :). But for real life, it would be too much of a 'big brother is watching you' thingy. Suppose, per instance, it is you yourself doing something moronic this one time? I know I sometimes do moronic things, and I do say them even more often. It would be quite a silent world, with big BW in the sky, I daresay...

Besides, it is almost impossible to define 'un/moronity' of anything in RL, as opposed to narrowly dedicated virtual meeting place of the message board.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Point taken HI, perhaps I need a personal slave Barrow-wight who understands me perfectly, and crushes the people who I ask him to. No mistakes! :)

[Saraphim]

I don't think anyone has uttered those words before.

perhaps I need a personal slave Barrow-wight who understands me perfectly, and crushes the people who I ask him to
I'd buy that.

[Niluial]

I would say Niluial and Brittany are my two different sides. Indeed they are the same person but I think Niluial is my better side… more sweet and perky as Brittany is a bit more bitter and twisted. Though there is no mask here. Recently I have become more Niluial offline as appose to being Brittany offline. ‘tis a good thing though…

My my us Downers are really losing it… talking in second person and sounding a bit schizophrenic aren’t we ;).

[ohtatyaro]

I'm not me, sure. I'm someone else. Just have to find out who this someone is :)

[Rimbaud]

If there were anyone like Rimbaud in real-life, he would be a very troubling individual.

Chat-Rim is reasonably distinct from forum-Rim.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Funny, sure . But for real life, it would be too much of a 'big brother is watching you' thingy. Suppose, per instance, it is you yourself doing something moronic this one time? I know I sometimes do moronic things, and I do say them even more often. It would be quite a silent world, with big BW in the sky, I daresay...
Heh heh...not if we had a giant "Bombadil of the Skies" to go with him! ;)

Cheers!
Lyta

P.S. I hope that wasn't too moronic a thing to say!

[E. Fester]

Well, if I wasn't who I say I am, you would never know :p . Trust nobody!

[Morsul the Dark]

Andrew and Morsul are indeed Seperate however they usually converge At home Morsull is prominent at work Morsul sits quiet waiting to get home and onto the Downs On the downs Morsul reigns as top mind in the body of ours

[Mithalwen]

My cyber-self (I won't call her Mithalwen ..which just happened to be my main RPG char elsewhere when I signed up.... Mithalwen to me is that particular char - and is an elf and so gets to be elegant and ever-young ) is expression of my own personality undiluted by the restrictions placed on it in the actual world ..... in some ways this is the most real me for good or ill...... in a place, where I am surrounded by people with common interests, and we "see, no longer blinded by our eyes" .... So you get the best and the worst of me ..... depending whether my mind is in meat-cleaver, stream of consciousness or just plain ditzy mode.... the cyber-me can be a lot nastier and say the things I would only think off line - at least when ston-cold sober ! - but I am really trying to curb the inner bitch...but I fear I will always find the flippant remark irressistable and suffer the guilt when a blow falls heavier than I ever intended..... But the on-line self sometimes has the wits to edit or moderate thoughtless or intemperate remarks....

The internet is really the place where I do my talking mainly..... so many of my friends seem now incapable of talking of anything other than their children (what happened to those funny, clever women I knew at university? and will they ever recover ?) so I tend to have to do a lot of listening .... :rolleyes: .Work conversations are usually faily mundane and..... so I think I would go quite mad or curl up and die if I couldn't talk about literature and psychology on-line ...... intellectual is still a bit of an insult in England ........ and there is such a risk of seeming affected of pretentious ....... I spend my life trying to wear my learning lightly...... so in a strange way it is a huge relief to come somewhere where most people are so evidently so much more learned and intelligent than me..... trying not to seem utterly stupid is the main challenge ... it is like the year I spent in Paris .... just about everyone I knew was at least an undergraduate, but many had Doctorates or were amazingly talented ...... it was humbling but very mentally stimulating.......

The cyber self gets to ramble on more cos noone can interrupt her ...lol

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well Mithalwen, you remind me of the ways in which I prefer France to Britain! But I think I shall stay and fight. When the tabloids well and truly take over, I will leave! (Granted, that could be next year :( )

[InklingElf]

Who is me and who is my mask? I am always myself -- save for my inscrutable pseudonym and the logical avatar featuring a Vulcan with pointy ears and a deep, profound ponderous look.

My friends find it strange whenever I am engrossed on a post -- they don't read it mind you they simply disprove of the green ink and black background -- I don't really care about that.

My forum-self proves to be more talkative than my reality-self -- one can confuse the two at times but I love being both -- some how the Downs tends to balance my two selves out if you catch my drift.

Well that's just me talking...(wait which one!?)

[Meneltarmacil]

Meneltarmacil and Jamie are in fact almost the same at this point. Same sense of humor, for one. However, Jamie has definitely become more outgoing (and admittedly a little crazy... but in a good way) since Meneltarmacil has been around to bring out those hidden qualities in him. I used to be really quiet just about everywhere, and only spoke up to answer questions that I knew the answers to. However, since Meneltarmacil has brought out my more humorous and quite crazy side on the Downs, I have let it show a lot more in the "real world" as well. And I must say that I am pleased with the results, even though some people think I'm getting on their nerves.

[The Perky Ent]

I must confess! I lied to you all! It's all been a sham! I'm a dirty, rotten lier! I'm not perky! All the other ents were making fun of me :'( I just couldn't take it. Then, I found this sugar Pippin had left behind (that explains a lot), and all of a sudden, a transformation began! I was morphing into a Perky Ent!



.....(looks to left) (looks to right) hello? Anybody? ........

No, it's nothing like that! Pippin doesn't have sugar. If he did, it would have been gone by the Midgewater Marshes! Anyways, I have a weird connection to the downs. I always act like myself in reality, even while I'm posting. It's like I maintain myself, but my hands take on the identidy of a sugar weilding ent. It's strange. Oh well! Back to the sugar!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

intellectual is still a bit of an insult in England ........ and there is such a risk of seeming affected of pretentious ....... I spend my life trying to wear my learning lightly...... so in a strange way it is a huge relief to come somewhere where most people are so evidently so much more learned and intelligent than me.....
Don't I know what you mean by that... In an attempt to not come off as pretentious or a know-it-all in the RW, I cater my vocabulary as well as my conversation to those around me. I suppose that's one of my many masks. Forgive me if this sound like I'm bragging, because I don't mean to, but it occurs to me that my brains and interests may make some people nervous. So I "hide" those interests and my general thoughts behind a "So what's for lunch today?" or a "Check out those shoes!" mask. And when I dare to come out from behind that mask? I usually regret it.

For example: for a class I was taking, we were forced to take part in mock interviews (which amused me, because my current job required no interview). The "scenario" was that I was interviewing for a job in an art museum, where I would not only help give tours, but I would give art classes. When asked about chalk pastels, I answered with a wink that I would try my darndest not to use them, because they are so gosh-darned messy and hard to be precise with, but if I did need to, I would show my students how to work from left to right (if they are righties) and to use a piece of paper on top so-as not to smear the chalk all over the rest of the work. Coupled with my knowledge of Da Vinci and my use of words like "posthumously" in general conversation... my teacher recieved a report back saying that other than sounding slightly pretentious, that I'd be great for the job (if, of course, it had been real, and I was older.). I wasn't meaning to sound pretentious, I was just talking to the guy like an intellectual equal.

It occurs to me also, that regardless of what I choose to show people of my personality or intellect, they will still see what they want to see. This past weekend, I was in the midst of a literary discussion (sadly NOT LotR, but rather The Da Vinci Code) with my godmother and my godbrother. It was especially interesting because my godmother had read it from a religious standpoint, I, from a scientific, artistic, and a holy-crap-I-didn't-know-this standpoint, and my godbrother hadn't yet read it, but was familiar with concepts therein. My point is, regardless of the validity of my points and the accuracy of my comments and references, my godmother tended to brush me off, still seeing me as her little god-daughter, as opposed to a bright young woman interested in and familiar with most of the components of the book!

Because of how she has known me (or not known me, I've yet to figure out which) my entire life, my godmother is slow to change perceptions of me. She likes to play the motherly teacher, when what I'd prefer is to pick her brain for unbiased information (hard to do, let me tell you, although she is brilliant). I suppose my point, although slow-coming, is that we are not the only ones who apply masks to ourselves. Other people, for whatever reasons, see us how they want to. Its as if they past a mask of their own creation over our faces, and forget that there is more behind it.

And now, after this essay I've unwittingly written, it is time to get some work done.

Cheers,
Fea

[Elennar Starfire]

hmm...masks...I suppose I do hide my deepest self most of the time...but I've become so used to the masks that I usually don't even notice I'm wearing them. I am truly a dreamer. The link in my siggie is the one thread where I am (mostly) maskless. I've allowed my melancholy side to show. But it's a bit creepy...so I don't know how many people actually want to know what I'm really like when I'm alone.

Usually I am outgoing and loving to laugh, combined (when with certain friends) with a slight tendency to drool over hot guys. (just a little bit fangirlish...)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I tend to wear a mask when I'm around my family, it just makes things a lot easier. I don't bother with masks when I'm with other people, even at work. I am destined to never get a good job! :rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

Oh I hope my god daughter doesn't feel like that about me ..... :eek: but I have the advantage of having been very young (to be a godparent) when she was born and so being between her and her parents in age..... I was so happy that she liked Lord of the Rings (even to the point that I don't grudge too much her having so much of my stuff in her custody ....dvds, CDs books..... and I took her to the LOTR exhibition in London last year)... the relationship I have with her is about the best thing in my life.... and I feel privileged that she lets me in to her life a bit - given that she is a perfectly normal teenager with all that usually entails for communication with people over twenty....... it keeps me young.....

But yes.... it is a strain keeping everything "light, bright and polite" for work etc..... phatic language all day every day..... I mean you might as well admit to spending your evening torturing small furry animals as admitting a fondness for opera..... I once did find a mainstream newsagent that sold "Opera " but it was on the top shelf with the magazines for those with less cerebral predilictions..... mind you some modern stagings can be a bit risque.....

Even in and undergrad lit class, I received a filthy look for saying that Vivaldi wasn't a classical composer but baroque .... ok..maybe that is a bit pedantic.... but....

Maybe I should go back to France... wonder if I can remember how to speak the lingo..... but the consequences for my liver could be dire.... :( .

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

You must understand, I love my godmother dearly, because not only is she that, but also my mother's eldest sister and the mother of one of my best friends. She is very supportive and is a good, caring person... but it occurs to me that she isn't ready to see her daughter and I growing up. Which I think is why she gives us "masks". What she sees in us that she doesn't like, I believe sometimes that she pretends does not exist. Or, of course, I could just be hitting entirely off the mark and my godmother understands me perfectly and is just trying to make me a better person. Whatever.

Fea

[Mithalwen]

Sorry I didn't want to imply a lack of affection ..... more that I hoped I had a slightly different relationship with my god daughter - less parental more friend... I no longer feel qualified to give religious guidance I suppose I would hope to support her to realise her full potential and become as fulfilled as possible..and to realise she is growing up and treat her accordingly not as a child but as a bright young person - just with less experience of the world .... but I do tell her if I think she is being a brat ... but mainly I want her to get well and be able to lead a normal life.. but because I am not her actual parent or indeed a parent it is easier to adjust maybe.....

I think it is hard for parents to let go - I mean they spend so long paranoically watching every step and trying to let go ..... and they also find it hard to get rid of their long established "labels" - I was the youngest in my family for 16 years and they get so used to you being the one who knows nothing...... It happened that I had to renew my passport when I was in France and I met a newish friend just after collecting it - and he was horrified when he saw from that I was 2 months younger than his youngest sister. He assumed I was older, .... not because I looked older but because having met me as an adult he thought of me as such, whereas she was still in his mind his baby sister .....

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

A series of thoughts that I will try to articulate before they disappear on me:

Allegedly, coming around here we all wear masks – our nicks. Come to think of it, are we really we when posting here?
I suppose my point, although slow-coming, is that we are not the only ones who apply masks to ourselves. Other people, for whatever reasons, see us how they want to. Its as if they past a mask of their own creation over our faces, and forget that there is more behind it.
I was just reading through one of my favorite threads, How Do You Imagine Other BDers (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10854&page=1&pp=40), and a thought struck.

I'm always trying to form mental images of other BDers.
Is our allowance of others to picture us how they will another way of masking ourselves? I believe it is. But more applicable to my last thought on this thread, are we encouraging others to mask each other? By allowing, even encouraging, fellow members to come up with amazingly inaccurate images of us, are we subconsciously letting them make masks for us? Rather than letting the true 'you' show through (forgive the rhyme), we are letting people create labels for us.

According to others who will like as not never meet me, I am currently a rather tall girl, a rather short girl, a boy (!), a blonde, a brunette, short hair, long hair, long fingers, artsy style, sneaker wearing, etcetera. Is this a good thing? Speaking sensibly, yes. We are online, and it is never a good idea to tell all to people you don't know. In my opinion, it is never a good idea to tell all to people you DO know. But speaking in a more... I don't know... say... psychological/moral sort of way, is it a good thing to allow others, or even ourselves, to mask us? By doing so, do we deny who we are, or do we allow for sheer creativity on the part of others?

Fea

[the phantom]

But more applicable to my last thought on this thread, are we encouraging others to mask each other?
Maybe some people are, but on that thread you mentioned I usually tell people if they are right or wrong. I don't tell them they can't picture me the way they want but I also tell them the way I truly am in case they want to be closer to reality.

I don't think I care either way. If you want I suppose you could picture me as a glowing, man-eating squash from Neptune or you could just go to Alka's picture page and get an idea of what I really look like and picture me that way.

If the phantom is wearing a mask, it is because you put it on him.

(kind of ironic that "the phantom" of all people doesn't bother to wear a mask)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

If you want I suppose you could picture me as a glowing, man-eating squash from Neptune
Radioactive alien produce it is.

I've not yet come to a conclusion as to what my thoughts are in regard to other people's potential imaginings of me. I suppose that I like to allow a little bit of artistic license on their part and a little bit of mystery on my own part.

Is this creating another mask (or series of masks) however? Just as Feanor of the Peredhil is one of L*'s masks, so, apparently, are the images other people project of Fea. L* has her masks (or my masks, to be grammatically correct), which each, in turn, have their own. But do masks that other people give you count as masks you give yourself, simply because you allow them to exist?

Fea

[Lhunardawen]

By allowing, even encouraging, fellow members to come up with amazingly inaccurate images of us, are we subconsciously letting them make masks for us? Rather than letting the true 'you' show through (forgive the rhyme), we are letting people create labels for us.

It's always interesting (and funny at times) to know how other Downers see you, but we always have the choice whether we shall tell them who we really are or not. As the phantom said: Maybe some people are, but on that thread you mentioned I usually tell people if they are right or wrong. I don't tell them they can't picture me the way they want but I also tell them the way I truly am in case they want to be closer to reality.

In my case, my avatar misleads some people into thinking that I look like Eowyn, but I tell them that I don't. We just happened to have quite similar stories, but I was not lucky enough to be as beautiful as her. :rolleyes:

But just because others see me in the way they do, it does not necessarily mean that I should create a mask out of it. If people perceive me as a certain person, then that's their personal opinion. I don't think I would call it a mask if what they see is how I really am (or at least the mask I wear :) ) . But if I know that is not the real me (or the mask), yet that is how they see me, then I have just let them create a mask for me, which I accept unless I tell them they are wrong. In the end, all that matters is that we know if what we're showing people is who we really are, or at least the mask we want them to see.

That is quite confusing. I don't think it made sense.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

That is quite confusing. I don't think it made sense.
It did, no worries.

I was not lucky enough to be as beautiful as her.
Or more likely you are just as beautiful, and just don't think you are. That's usually how it goes.

So the feeling that I am getting is along the lines that the images other people give us are only masks if we accept them as such? The second we deny it, we wear the mask no longer. I think...

Fea

[The Saucepan Man]

So the feeling that I am getting is along the lines that the images other people give us are only masks if we accept them as such?Just as in real life, people base their image of you on what you give out to them (consciously or subconsciously). And they may be way off, or they might be more accurate than you'd care to admit ... :D ;)

[Guinevere]

I've only just discovered this thread - great idea, Heren Istarion! And very interesting to read all those posts. :)
As for me, I don't think I am "wearing a mask" in this forum at all . My character is basically much the same as in real life. It's just that here only a part of my person shows, the one that is concerned with Tolkien. In real life, I don't have much opportunity to talk about that which really moves me. And I am usually mute as a fish in a discussion with several persons since I don't have much self-confidence and am neither eloquent nor quick-witted. While I struggle to find the right words, the discussion has moved on. I can express myself much better in written language (be that in my mothertongue or in English) because it gives me time to find words for my thoughts and feelings.

[Encaitare]

Hmmm... deep question. I'm pretty much the same, only here you can't see me making funny faces. :D

Seriously though, the only thing that's different about me here is that I'm less outspoken. If I believe something I will argue for it, but I won't go crazy. My outspokenness has gotten me in trouble before, and it's good that here I have time to think about what I say before I click the little "Submit Reply" button.

[elronds_daughter]

Hmm.... I suppose "elronds_daughter" may only be one of my many alter-egos. Online, I have many; most stem from various RPGs. Offline, I also have several: a Vulcan, a girly-girl, a frazzled author, and an over-confident, tough, skeptical former CIA agent have all taken up residence in my person. I manage to suppress the girly-girl most of the time (Thank heavens! Though subtle, unintentional things tend to draw her out--those get on my nerves). "elronds_daughter" (or Eddy, as Fea calls me;)) seems to be a combination of all of them--the healthiest combination that has occurred so far. Much of the time, "elronds_daughter" seems to mirror my real life self. Though there are times when deviation occurs, they are rare. Therefore, I can honestly say that what you're getting through the medium of "elronds_daughter" is pretty much me.

[Neurion]

The differences between Neurion and James? Well for one, Neurion cannot decide whether he is an Elf or else a human who is like an Elf, while James worries whether he is Slovak, Italian, Ukrainian, French or Polish or something else entirely. Both of them look alike, which is to say stunningly handsome (truly :D ), although Neurion's ears are likely pointier than those of James.

Like the phantom and Phillip, Neurion is almost entirely concerned with the history of Arda, while James' interests include WWII, comic books, Star Wars, Star Trek, 1/6th scale military action figures, the works of Tolkien and G.K. Chesterton, Paleontology, and Military, Church, Political, and Medieval history with emphasis on the Crusades.

Neurion and James both tend to become rather heated should what they hold to be true be challenged, but Neurion does not have James' unnerving stare and thus is probably less threatening. Both of them are rather odd pragmatic idealists. Neurion is somewhat less modest than James and has a tendency to talk about himself a little more than he knows he ought to. James tends to be less cheerful than Neurion depending on what world crisis he is currently analyzing.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

After all, TP never has to see anyone face to face so he doesn't care if he angers them.
How true, Phantom, because I do believe that is how we really started talking here. You said something that angered me, and then the wit ensued. Haha. In fact, I've start many online friendships through debates.

Okay, so on to me, now (we can't have Phantom steal the spotlight, now can we? ;) )

I guess it's hard to say, because Melanie is someone whose career involves putting on masks and becoming other people. I think that Tigerlily Gamgee is probably more expressive than Melanie is, because I'm much better and typing things out than forming them into coherent words and phrases by tongue. But, it seems that I've become Tigerlily, or she's become me, because I have a close group of friends who first met me online using this name, so now I actually am called Tigerlily, or rather "Tig," in real life. Tigerlily is really a part of me, now. It's the only online nick that's gone into real life, though. I'm also known online as Psyknife in some places, but Tigerlily is the main one... Psyknife and Tigerlily are pretty much the same, only Tigerlily lives in Middle Earth, and Psyknife lives in the Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters. Two different fandoms, two different aliases.
I have so many different sides to myself anyway, I am a Gemini afterall, and Tigerlily is just one of them :) She needs to start talking more again, though, because Tigerlily has been rather mute around here lately... she's been talking it up over at LadyofRohan.com, though, and she's crazier over there because she's the moderator... haha.
Tigerlily on these boards is much more respectful and less crazy, whereas other places online she swears like a sailor and says some very random off subject things.
I adjust to the atmosphere, I guess.

[Ainaserkewen]

I've only just discovered this thread - great idea, Heren Istarion! And very interesting to read all those posts. Here, here.

After some thought I came to some interesting conclutions concerning this thread. Ainaserkewen is actually a surviving personality from my past. Obviously 3 years is not that long for most adults but for a teenager who is constantly learning about herself everyday, it is a long time. When I first signed up for this forum I was a huge loner. I didn't like the people I went to school with. Living in a small town meant that I didn't have many people to choose from in terms of association. I had just recently been riveted by the second installment of LOTR. My attitude then was unsure, shy at times and extremely self-conscious. Myself as Shannon now, in grade 12 is far different as I have grown to love and accept myself. But that shy, self-conscious 15 year old survives here on this site. She is slow to respond to threads because she thinks she might say the wrong thing or carefully word each post so that other posters will like her. Analysing this is actually a shock to my present Shannon, who has a big mouth and, though over analyses everything, talks too much. My uncertainty lives on in Aina, and I think that's a beautiful thing because it's a reminder of where I came from.

Will Aina be catching up to Shannon in terms of security and self-confidence? Probably not. I'm still sheepish in my posting and try to stay humble. I guess I care too much of what all of you think of me. Strange...indeed, very strange.

[THE Ka]

Sometimes I wonder about this...

Is THE Ka, really like me? Does everyone find Ka to be a better personality than if I were to personally poor all of myself into this aspect, or has everyone had about enough of the moments when the true character comes out...

That second one troubles me sometimes, but I will have to admit, crafting Ka has been fun... It's like an art project. At first it seems someone else painted the picture, but then you go in and make it fit your true identity. Only thing is, I think it's been crafted so far that when I do put more of myself into it that other members think that it has snapped or something...

All in all, I think that I'm gradually slipping more of myself, and personal aspects into my other ego. Not as if there wasn't alot already there, I mean I put alot of reality into it at the beginning, but now i'm finding that I should put more into it before it becomes dull... Or in other words, not like myself. In an aging terminology, anyone can see Ka has drastically developed over the last three or so years here, I think it might be because i'm not as afraid of saying something stupid (not to say that I don't continue to do... :rolleyes: ) on here and be shunned for my mistakes as I was before.

Ah! this has become a brain twister! And now I feel very embarassed with no explanation why. I hope I haven't scared anyone, I really don't want to...

There is one thing I have to say, and if you know Qantum Physics, you'll understand. All of us are mysterious in a way that even ourselves cannot fully comprehend...

~ True Self (Not Ka)

[THE Ka]

Sorry to not be completely on-topic, but I couldn't help but to point out that this thread completely reminds me of the movie What the Bleep Do we Know?!

If you haven't seen it, please do. It is so much like this topic in it's explanations of identity that I couldn't pass it up.

Or visit: http://www.whatthebleep.com/synopsis/

once again sorry!

~ true self

[Aiwendil]

This is an interesting thread, and one that touches on an issue I have sometimes thought about. Does the internet mask us or does it take our masks away?

The general view, and one that I daresay this thread takes for granted by its very nature, is that when using the internet, one is somehow cut off from the other users. An internet personality with whom one interacts is "inscrutable". It could be anyone. It could be a teenager, or an old man, or a middle-aged woman, or any manner of person. And people on the internet, I often hear it said, are capable of lying. A forty year old man can say he's a fifteen year old girl. In short, the conventional wisdom seems to be that the internet obscures people. Perhaps internet users can indeed get to know each other, but in doing so they are overcoming a barrier. They are "masked".

My view tends to be quite the opposite. Sure, I don't know what anyone else on this forum actually looks like. But, quite frankly, I also don't care what any of you look like. In many cases, I don't know your ages; in some cases, I don't know your sexes. But again, I don't care. Maybe (far-fetched as it seems) some of you in fact lie about these things. A third time: I don't care.

You see, the way I look at it, the internet doesn't mask us. Rather, it takes away the masks we wear elsewhere. In the physical world, people dress differently; some people are old and others are young; some are male and some female; some are attractive and some are ugly. When two people interact, they can't help but to notice these things, and inevitably judgements are made; preconceptions arise. On the internet, all that matters is what one says. Here, it is a person's mind that counts; the physical guises that we wear in "the real world" are stripped away. It's almost a kind of osanwe.

I'm not saying that the "dangers" of the internet are fictitious. People can lie on the internet - but then people can lie in real life too. Nor is the communication it affords absolutely direct and uninhibited; the language into which we must translate our thoughts before we share them can often be cumbersome. But I would say that someone who interacts with me only through the internet probably knows me - that is, the real me, my mind - better than someone who interacts with me in the real world for a comparable amount of time.

Of course, in practice, such relationships suffer in comparison to real world ones for the simple reason that most people spend less time on the internet than they do off it.

[HerenIstarion]

The title is a joke, of course :D. Butty but:

My view tends to be quite the opposite. Sure, I don't know what anyone else on this forum actually looks like. But, quite frankly, I also don't care what any of you look like. In many cases, I don't know your ages; in some cases, I don't know your sexes. But again, I don't care. Maybe (far-fetched as it seems) some of you in fact lie about these things. A third time: I don't care.

Goody one, I agree heartily :)

and inevitably judgements are made; preconceptions arise...the physical guises that we wear in "the real world" are stripped away. It's almost a kind of osanwe.

But physical guises are replaced with guise of words. And words may give rise to preconceptions likewise. It is easier to make a judgement on the unfortunate occassion of ill-chosen sentence here. Besides, physical 'guises' are as much a guise as the means of communication? Gestures, smiles, wink of an eye can make a better impression, emotional message may be of more importance at certain moments than 'bare' words, transfer of information, or 'meaning'?

But I would say that someone who interacts with me only through the internet probably knows me - that is, the real me, my mind - better than someone who interacts with me in the real world for a comparable amount of time

But is it the real you or rather an impression, a copy, a shadow of your personality your words left on the mind of the reader? Do your photographs all resemble each other in a way giving complete stranger a chance, seeing them for the first time, to have no doubts that it is the same person on all of them? Does not your 'you' change with the times considerably? Or even the morning and the evening of the very same day? (Analogy: rereading my own posts of 3 or 4 years ago, I'm completely sure I would not have written the same thing (not the data handled, its handling rather) if I were to write the post today. At times I feel that I would not have replied at all, if it were today that the discussion took place)

Can you bet from my words only even whether I do seriosly discuss the issue with you, or secretly do laugh my head off right now, behind mine and yours screens?

[Roggie of Morgoth]

yep, i agree w u 2, awendul and herenistericon, yeppi yep!

[HerenIstarion]

Would you have known the post #100 is posted by yours truly as well as one preceding it, if you haven't had the evidence of certain post (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?p=358452#post358452) in the Top Reputation Givers thread to back you up in your reasoning?

Or to look at my point from another angle - HerenIstarion and Roggie of Morgoth both being online 'masks' of George Lashkhi, are distinct all the same. George Lashkhi is unable to force HerenIstarion to do tricks or pranks, George Lashkhi is forced in his turn to create alternate Roggies in order to do the business. HerenIstarion has certain amount of independence, there are certain patterns H-I follows GL is already unable to break, there is a certain reputation (not the one expressed in number of green squares) H-I has in GL's mind to live up (or down) to. GL would not have been able to make H-I write in "i agree w u 2" manner (even now GL have typed commas around the sentence) unless in the form of a joke, and GL would have taken some pains to make it distinctly clear H-I is joking writing thus.

Yet both Roggie and H-I are aspects of GL's person, aren't they? Else, would they both be born at all as GL's online accounts?

Yet another angle:

Even the sound (and visual impression) online name makes is of consequence. The mere choice of the name may be forming certain mental impression in the mind of the reader. Per instance, name Aiwendil tells me (even if it is not so indeed) that the real person (whatever the gender, age etc behind it) behind the name:

1. Loves animals
2. Views him/herself as a kind of slacker
3. Values him/hersef all the same as person of great potential
4. Is attracted by the 'magic' of 'old things' - else, why not choose more common Radagast instead?

I may be completely off the track of course, and the name was originally chosen for the sound of it. But even the sound may differ in the ear of the listener, and associations that are roused by the name may be quite different for other listeners

(As a paragon, see Over my dead (gorgeous) body (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=11727) by Nilpaurion Felagund. The thread, at large, has it's source in the choice of the screenname made on 04-01-2003 (supposedly), when he joined the Downs. I.e. - have Louis Ortal not had made 'son of Finrod' choice of his online name, would he occupy himself choosing his imagined location with such a precision and attention to detail now, two years thence? Would discussion of tombs and burials arise at all?

The influence goes both ways :))

***

All things said, can anyone still be 100% sure GL, apart from time online when he is either H-I or Roggie, does not entertain himself sawing people in his basement? (God forbid and save from, of course, that being theoretical supposition. Still more GL has no basement at his disposal. But suppose he would have had?)

***

And a conclusion: the longer one pretends to be some kind of a person, the stronger is the chance of his/her actual becoming that kind of person. George Lashkhi has now more of HerenIstarion about him than he himself could have imagined on September 2000, when the name was chosen almost accidentally.

Are not we all almost like dungeonmasters driving and being driven by one, mostly beloved, paid heed to, but still a character online?

[Aiwendil]

HerenIstarion wrote:
But physical guises are replaced with guise of words. And words may give rise to preconceptions likewise.

Indeed; hence my point that "the language into which we must translate our thoughts before we share them can often be cumbersome."

Besides, physical 'guises' are as much a guise as the means of communication? Gestures, smiles, wink of an eye can make a better impression, emotional message may be of more importance at certain moments than 'bare' words, transfer of information, or 'meaning'?


All right, we lose winks and facial expressions and all manner of non-verbal communication. Have we really lost that much? Good riddance to them, I say! Sure, in some cases these things are truly communicative. A sarcastic tone of voice certainly carries a piece of "code" without which the intended message could not be correctly deciphered. So again, there is a problem with translating thoughts into mere words; certain physical aids to that process (e.g. tone of voice) are lost when we switch to words alone. But I think words alone are more expressive than they are sometimes given credit for being. Sarcasm can in fact be translated into words, with the proper phrasing and perhaps italicization. The whole medium of literature, in fact, is dependent on the notion that ideas can be accurately translated into words.

Further, I'd say that a lot of non-verbal communication is not really communication at all. A lot of it simply transmits no information, no meaning. If you're interested in acting out stereotyped social behavior patterns then perhaps these things are important; if you're interested in sharing ideas then I say words are at present the best we can do.

Yes, I am a bit of a Vulcan.

But is it the real you or rather an impression, a copy, a shadow of your personality your words left on the mind of the reader?
Can you bet from my words only even whether I do seriosly discuss the issue with you, or secretly do laugh my head off right now, behind mine and yours screens?

Those are questions that could be addressed on several levels, including the deepest metaphysical one. But they're also questions that could just as easily be asked of real world interactions. We can only interact with that which we have access to, in real life or in here. Since I don't have direct access to your consciousness, all I can do is interact with your words. It would be no different in real life - non-verbal communication offers no more access to a person's inner mind than does verbal.

Or to look at my point from another angle - HerenIstarion and Roggie of Morgoth both being online 'masks' of George Lashkhi, are distinct all the same.

But Roggie is intentionally a mask. I don't deny that people can lie, on the internet as in real life. Undoubtedly, there are certain things that are easier to lie about on the internet. But for the most part, those are (as I see it) unimportant things. If you wanted to create several different personas and hide the fact that they were all in fact you, I would say "go ahead, knock yourself out."

But what we are talking about there is outright lying. Certainly, one could adopt a false persona (in real life just as well). But short of this, I really think that the internet does more to unmask us than to mask us. It gives all its users a chance to share ideas and to share in the ideas of other people. When I read your words, I am interacting with your ideas - not with your appearance, or your choice of clothing, or your tone of voice.

Are not we all almost like dungeonmasters driving and being driven by one, mostly beloved, paid heed to, but still a character online?

I continue to think of it quite differently. Perhaps it's different for different people. But Aiwendil is I; I am Aiwendil. We are the same - the only difference being that Aiwendil spends all his time talking about Tolkien, whereas I occasionally do other things. As I see it, it is in the physical world that I am masked and in this abstract world of words and ideas that I am not.

[Formendacil]

The internet takes away the "masks" we wear in everyday life, eh?

But what if the everyday mask is the REAL self, and not the more ambiguous self-projected mask that is seen online?

For myself, the real-life Michael A. Joosten (variously known as Michael, Mike), is a bit of a lazy character, is a reader, is known for his dry humour, and his fondness for getting dressed up (be it in suit and tie or in sword and scabbard). People who know him well would tell you that these are parts of what makes him who he is, that he wouldn't be Michael without them.

But do they evidence themselves in Formendacil? Not fully. How many of the users here can see Formendacil swinging a wooden sword into air-orks (who might well be playing air-guitars), building LEGO castles, and having heated discussions on the validity of priestly celibacy? The last might seem compatible with his online self, but the others?

Who we are is not HIDDEN by the "masks" we wear, rather, we are DEFINED by our masks. Beneath our choices, looks, ideas, and values, we are all the same. These "masks" are what make us unique, what present us to the world as individuals worthy of each others' interest. Without them, the differences between us are nil. If our masks are different online and in "real" life that is perhaps because of a difference in perspective, and because online we are more able to "hide" our masks, to conceal ourselves, should we so desire it.

[HerenIstarion]

We seem to discuss two topics mainly:

1. Freedom of transfer of information over the net as opposed to ‘real’ conversation
2. Self-identification on the net

Here we go than:

1. Freedom of transfer

Aiwendil, you have praised our very discussion as a means of ‘pure’ exchange of ideas, and yet, and yet – though we do ‘exchange ideas’, do we talk about the same thing? Can anyone be sure that those s/he communicates with understand what s/he has to say exactly how s/he said it? I was not implying the internet communication is bad, and the possibility of ‘lying’ over it does not form the gist of my post at all. It is possible to lie in ‘real’ conversation too, employing very same mimics that are so useful for the transfer of emotional messages

On the whole, my prolix discourse (and impersonating) was caused by the word ‘osanwe’ in your post previous but one. As far as the concept of ‘osanwe’ is rooted in my mind, it is not exchange of data in the form of mental dialogue, with advanage of being free of ‘lie’, neither merely some analogue of conversation per se, but something more – more intense stream of information, package including concepts and emotions likewise, maybe even mental visions/pictures too. In this case, internet can not be wieved as some kind of ‘osanwe’ at all.

The ‘freedom of mind’ you seem to claim for internet is limited by the very medium said ‘freedom’ has to operate through. The very language, being a medium, forms a barrier for ‘free’ transfer:

1. Levels of mastery of language between those who communicate may vary
2. Certain meanings of certain words, given different locations of those who communicate may also vary
3. Same words may have manifold different meanings

(But in this we agree, it seems)

Personal difference: for me, ‘pure’ idea lacks when it is stripped of emotion rather than gains from its ‘purity’. I’m passionate about some things, and that is why I am fond of discussing them on the net in the first place. That passion, though sometimes may shine through, is hard to communicate through keyboard and screen :)

(‘Love’ is an idea. But how different is the set of emotional ‘clothing’ which accompanies the word ‘love’ for each of us?)

Or, to come down to definitions:

A. Information (for me) is: concept plus emotion the bearer of the concept attaches to it

B. Information (for you, as far as I’m allowed to guess) is: concept minus emotion the bearer of the concept attaches to it. (Or minus the bearer?)

Now, in real life, less of a concept and more of the emotion is transferred, over the net, more of the concept and less of the emotion. (to read ‘I’m frightened’ is less emotionally impressive than to see actual widening of an eye and hair standing on end)

Where we differ, it seems, is in evaluation – you hail the lack of emotion-communicating capacity on behalf of the net-conversation as ‘purification’ of data transfer, I complain of it as of its ‘deficiency’ :)

Still another angle – even though we have only words and no faces to talk to, the words are born in an actual, physical brain, which is located in actual body, which actually sits and types with actual fingers. And all this has an impact on what the thing I call “me” inside the body has to say here and now. I have a headache right now – how can I be sure that had I had it not, the words I chose now to embody my thoughts, or the thoughts themselves would have been the same?

2. Self identification

But Aiwendil is I; I am Aiwendil

And I am HerenIstarion :). Nice to meet you.

On more serious note – if one sunny day (stormy night, starry evening...) you haven’t made the intentional choice of the name, would you have said that now? I address the following:

But Roggie is intentionally a mask

So Aiwendil is. So HerenIstarion is. But why adopt a nickname at all, than? If you is you and Aiwendil too, why not choose your own name as a nick?

And here we come down to the concept of name itself:

1. I’m George Lashkhi for reasons external. If my father were not Lashkhi, and if my grandfather were not George, I, with equal success, may have been John Smith. George is ‘farmer’ in Greek. Lashkhi means ‘one from Lashkheti’, the region in the western mountains of Georgia. But I live in the city, and do not till the earth. How does my name define me, apart from being a convention adopted by authorities to tax me efficiently?
2. My name is a convention, yet for people apart from myself, it does define me (to an extent). Yet it defines me not by its lettering (it is not g+e+o+r+g+e that they think of me), but by a whole bunch of memories and visual images they associate with it. ‘George is the chap I’ve been sitting with in school, one with a long nose and spectacles’, ‘George is that horrible chatterer who always tires me with some Tolkien chap and his writings’ etc. Funny thing is, not one person has the same association, and, though generally they may agree in some (long nose, spectacles), sure as Gandalf’s beard all their conventions will vary between themselves (good chap/bad chap, like/dislike, smart/silly) and all will differ from what I call myself

(The clause 2 is of importance. If I were alone in the world, it would matter less how I identify myself. The word ‘I’ would suffice.)

My internet name is also a convention, but reasons now are not entirely external (though not entirely internal likewise). Same entries for internet names:

1. I (you) would not have been HerenIstarion (Aiwendil) if I (you) haven’t read Tolkien. I may have been Johnny Bravo, and you Mistress Weatherwax (I won’t bet a dime on actual choices apart from paragons given, though). Yet mine (your) own choice was involved, so I (you) am (are) HerenIstarion (Aiwendil) and no other. I am H-I, and you Aiwendil for some internal reasons (see posts above – about beast-loving etc)
2. Screenname may also bring forth associations in other people apart from the bearer of the name, but now they are based less on visual images, but on bearer’s words only. (Gandalf’s beard sentence applies here as well)

Yet the person under the name HerenIstarion exists on the net only. It is a mind with no hands, no body, but words only. I believe medium impacts the thing which operates through it – hence, HerenIstarion is different from what George Lashkhi usually is.

And the core: If the person has the distinct identification (online nickname), acts in certain mode (words) in a certain medium (internet), and has no means of acting otherwise, is it not a different person?

It may be put another way round: of course I agree that with the same efficiency it may be said that it is a certain aspect of my own personality. But than it may be said that George Lashkhi is also only certain aspect of said personality, that, in its wholeness, is more than mere sum of its names. So, you are Aiwendil, but Aiwendil is not you – you are more than Aiwendil. You are Aiwendil + your ‘real’ name + something more (which I usually tend to call ‘will’). But for people you interact with online – you are Aiwendil, which is less (or other) than what you see as yourself)

The importance of each adopted name is though as follows:

It may be argued that George Lashkhi always will express himself through the medium of the net in the same mode, under the screenname H-I or any different one, but there is a ‘but’ that comes into play here:

Choice is a tricky thing. Any choice is intentional at the time of its making, but the road chosen may grow in on you. It was a choice – to choose HerenIstarion or some other name, and first few days it was easy to switch. Coming back to clause 2 up there – associations that start attaching themselves to the chosen screenname start to matter for the person under the name too, and on two levels – 1. When on the net, s/he ‘supposedly’ somehow identifies her/himself as her/his nickname, and 2. Others start to identify her/him likewise

Check-point question – would you seriously consider changing your screenname to something else on this point of its ‘online development’? For myself, I would not

An Internet Screenname looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip.

And as a final note:

But short of this, I really think that the internet does more to unmask us than to mask us. It gives all its users a chance to share ideas and to share in the ideas of other people.

I agree heartily.

But here is another instance of deficiency of ‘sharing ideas’ through internet (or any other medium apart from ‘pure’ osanwe). The emotion I see (I may err) under your handling of word ‘mask’ is negative – you seem to imply your evaluation of the word ‘mask’ is that of something ‘bad’, ‘negative’, which should be ‘unmasked’. ‘Unmasking’ than is the thing good. I tend to believe the ‘masks’ of the internet are things natural and neutral at that (apart from instances when masks are adopted with the intention of messing things up/trolling), but may modify the behavioral patterns of a person which adopts them.

There was a parable of an ugly man, who, for some reasons, was forced to wear a beautiful mask for a long period of time. When he finally took it off, he discovered that the features of his face were changed and resembled his beautiful mask now.

cheers

[the phantom]

But why adopt a nickname at all, than? If you is you and Aiwendil too, why not choose your own name as a nick?
There is no reason to. Your name only means something to people who already know you. If I would've signed up as "Philip" on this site, it wouldn't have meant a thing to other members. Since that's the case, why not pick some other name that sounds cool, tells something about you, or is Tolkien related?
Yet the person under the name HerenIstarion exists on the net only. It is a mind with no hands, no body, but words only. I believe medium impacts the thing which operates through it – hence, HerenIstarion is different from what George Lashkhi usually is.
Maybe that's the case for you, but not really for me. the phantom has a real physical body that exists outside of the net. I have real life friends who call me "Phantom", and I have met a few other Barrow-Downs members face to face and they still call me "Phantom". In my case, my screen name seems to be synonymous with my real name.
That passion, though sometimes may shine through, is hard to communicate through keyboard and screen
That's what smilies are for, silly. :p

[HerenIstarion]

What d'ya mean, it's only a smile? (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=11228)

[THE Ka]

That's what smilies are for, silly.

Sorry phantom, they can only portray a single emotion at one time, when let's say you are feeling one or two at the same time. Which is fairly common. If there was a limbic system for the internet for smilies I think you would be right, but alas that has yet to happen. Also, you might have to take into consideration of facial expressions. The brain does not carry around a dictionary of facial expressions from birth, it has to be imprinted upon the mind over and over for the brain to recognize that this: :( is sad, and that this: :) is happy. Facial expressions cannot be expressed as like in what we consider the physical world, through 'emotiocons' on the internet. Simply put, not everyone smiles with the same creases in the face, it is how you imagine the person behind the words and their emotions that really tells you what you would like them to say...

Sorry if that was confusing, I was trying to explain this information in a quantum physical sort of way.

If you are interested in how thoughts effect us and emotions, follow this link:
Dr. Masaru Emoto (http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/)

~ Ka

[the phantom]

they can only portray a single emotion at one time
Then use multiple smilies, silly. :p ;) :D
Also, you might have to take into consideration of facial expressions
Oh, yes, I definitely agree that facial expressions are vastly superior to smilies. I absolutely hate talking on the phone because I can't stand hearing someone's voice but not being able to see their face. But at least in writing, you don't get the voice either, so the lack of facial expression doesn't bug me so much. I just focus on the words, and the more words I've read from a specific individual the better idea I have of what their facial expression is when they post certain things.

[Guinevere]

I agree very much with Aiwendil in post #98, but as H.I. said, this may perhaps not be true for everyone.

For me "a mask" means a conscious disguise to hide one's real personality and to pretend to be someone else. My internet personality is certainly not a "mask" in this sense! It is rather a part of me that doesn't show so often in daily life. In real life I often feel , well, not behind a mask, but rather like in a cage, not being able to talk about things that really matter to me, because either I am with people with whom I can only talk about trivial things, or if people are clever and eloquent, I am just too slow and shy to express my ideas.
What I find so wonderful in such an internet forum is how we can share thoughts with other people across half the world, regardless of superficialities , just mind to mind.
Of course it's not like getting to know people in real life, it's only a part of them, but a very important part . I've read so many posts here that express much of the writer's personality and world view, I feel I know them better than my neighbours with whom I share only smalltalk.

[Kath]

But why adopt a nickname at all, than? If you is you and Aiwendil too, why not choose your own name as a nick?

In my case H-I I did not adopt a nickname. When I first found this site I only read the posts rather than looking at the names of the posters and I had so many monikers going that I needed something I could definitely remember, so choosing a shortening of my own name seemed the obvious choice.

This would then suggest that even in my original incarnation as "a pile of bones" I was myself and only myself as I had no alter ego.

But Aiwendil is I; I am Aiwendil

So this should, in theory, work for me. However, I have noted recently after reading this thread that I am a slightly different person online than I am in real life and I wonder if this is due to a subconscious fear that being myself will cause offense to others. This is in fact likely as my usual greeting to people takes the form of an insult and those who did not know me would probably wonder why I was greeting them so nastily.

This led me to thinking that yes the internet does allow us to create a 'mask', we can put out a form of ourselves that we think is acceptable to others and so stops them from seeing 'the real me'.

However at the same time it does allow an insight into a person that everday conversation does not give. On a site such as this you can watch a person grow over time. For example like myself. I began in the quiz thread saying very little and feeling terrified that I would say or do something to offend others - and in that respect I am different to my real life counterpart who speaks a long time before she thinks! Now I tend still not to talk much but I have migrated to the book and film discussion threads and in my mind that is indication of growth both in confidence and in myself as a person.

Screennames are not so much something to hide behind as they are a creation that allows us to develop and become them. Once this has happened I believe that the screenname and the real person are conjoined and compliment each other, making a better person out of them.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I am Feanor of the Peredhil. But Fea isn't me. Just like Grace isn't me, Red isn't me, Jack isn't me... you get the idea. Just like you all have said, Feanor is an extension of myself, but it does not go directly back and forth.

Here is my thought: I love the internet. I honestly believe that some people on this website know me better than some of the classmates I have spent 12 years of school with. They have preconceived notions and see the same person they saw eight years ago. Y'all didn't know me eight years ago, or even four years ago, and so the only things you see are pieces of who I am NOW. You take my words at face value, not spending an overt amount of time trying to figure out my ulterior motives, or wondering why I'm talking to you because "God, she thinks she's so perfect. What does she want?" (I assure you, I never said I think I'm perfect until years after they refused to believe my modesty. Then I began saying "Yeah, you're right. I am better than you. Don't forget it.")

What I am trying (and perhaps failing) to say is that in RL, people give us masks, and online, we give them to ourselves. It is my belief that any mask we choose for ourself is a much more honest portrayal of who I see when I look in the mirror than any mask somebody else has given me. Mind you, I can tell I've been spending too much time on this site when the voices in my head start saying Fea instead of Laura. :D It's the most entertaining thing when a random set of words that I found a few years ago become such an important part of who I am.

Fea

[Aiwendil]

HerenIstarion wrote:
On the whole, my prolix discourse (and impersonating) was caused by the word ‘osanwe’ in your post previous but one.

"Osanwe" was certainly an exaggeration. There is of course a huge difference between osanwe in Tolkien's world and conversation via the internet. I did not mean to suggest that what happens here is anything like a direct experience of one another's mind. It is, as you have pointed out, not pure; it is only language. What I did mean was that, as with osanwe, the internet allows its users to interact with each other's minds and their minds alone. Like osanwe, it dispenses with the merely physical and it operates without respect to distance.

A. Information (for me) is: concept plus emotion the bearer of the concept attaches to it

B. Information (for you, as far as I’m allowed to guess) is: concept minus emotion the bearer of the concept attaches to it. (Or minus the bearer?)


Hmm, I'm not sure what exactly to make of this. To me, information is information. An emotion is information. A concept is information. Actually, I could throw us into quite off-topic realms and go on about everything being information, but I won't.

Quite a separate matter is the question of which information is important. I would say that sometimes information concerning a particular person's occurrent emotional state is important. Such information can generally be verbalized, albeit (of course) not with perfect accuracy.

I would say that, for the most part, emotions are far from the most important concepts. But then I did warn you about my being a bit of a Vulcan (though, alas, without the pointed ears).

And all this has an impact on what the thing I call “me” inside the body has to say here and now. I have a headache right now – how can I be sure that had I had it not, the words I chose now to embody my thoughts, or the thoughts themselves would have been the same?

Indeed - they surely would not have been the same, since you wouldn't have written that you have a headache (unless you decided to lie about it). But I really don't think that's relevant.

So Aiwendil is. So HerenIstarion is. But why adopt a nickname at all, than? If you is you and Aiwendil too, why not choose your own name as a nick?


Yes, I take your point that the names with which we choose to identify ourselves give others some information about us; and I agree. This hardly strikes me as "masking" anyone - on the contrary, by offering information about the user, it takes a step toward "unmasking". It seems to me that a self-chosen name is less a mask than one's given name, for the self-chosen name is more likely to correspond well with one's inner state. I am "Steven Linden" - the name says something about my sex and perhaps a little bit about my nationality, but as I see it neither of these things have much to do with what I would say is fundamentally me. When I try to identify as particularly as possible what "I" am, the answer I get is that I am my mind; I am the total of my thoughts and perceptions. The name "Steven Linden" tells you little about that "I" - I suppose it tells you what I believe my name to be, but not much else. "Aiwendil" tells you, as you surmised in your previous post, several things about me. Each is of course only a name in the end, but my point is that if anything the self-chosen one is less of a mask than the other.

So, you are Aiwendil, but Aiwendil is not you – you are more than Aiwendil. You are Aiwendil + your ‘real’ name + something more (which I usually tend to call ‘will’). But for people you interact with online – you are Aiwendil, which is less (or other) than what you see as yourself)


I see what you mean. I think we differ in whether we would call this a "mask". You leave certain things out of your equation. You are HerenIstarion plus George Lashki plus a number of other things - including, but not limited to, a voice, a body, an age, and other physical attributes. If you ask me, it would be more apt to describe these things as a mask. The HerenIstarion that we see does not encompass all aspects of your mind, but it also does not encompass anything which is not of your mind. Every word, every idea, every aspect of HerenIstarion that we on the forum encounter has its origin in your mind and your mind alone. In contrast, those who know you in real life experience aspects of you whose sole origin is not your mind. It is in this sense that I see the internet as "unmasking".

[Formendacil]

Mask or makeup?

Both hide your real features, but one obscures it completely, the other highlights specifc parts.

Which is your Internet identity?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

As I was painting today, I happened to glance over at my companion's masks. Drama masks. Elaborate creations made to completely block your identity. Then I looked into the Art Room (we were in the hall) and saw little kids making masks. They were opaque, but you could still see the obscured features, and you could tell who they were. Are those the masks we wear? Or do we go to great lengths cultivating certain images that we want imbedded in the minds of others...

Then I went out to eat. I chatted with a friend I met up with there. She wears all kinds of makeup, including foundation, eye shadow, blush, lip gloss, mascara, eyeliner, and God only knows what else. We asked her one time how long it takes her to do her hair and makeup... Much longer than I would care to spend. I went into the bathroom and glanced in the mirror, taking in my pretty much invisible gold eye shadow and my mascara. My hair is short and choppy, so it was doing its own thing. Her makeup shows who she is, but rather than simply accentuating the positive, she makes it a point to completely hide the negative. If that girl had a zit, you would never guess.

What I'm saying is, there are different ways to wear your makeup, and there are loads of different masks. On this website, I wear a pair of horm-rimmed specs over lightly powdered eyes with long blacker-than-black lashes. And some chapstick. However, at first, I had a pair of sheer pantihose pulled over my face, obscuring my features and hiding everything of import. When I realized that I didn't have to put on a show to be accepted in this community, I reverted to myself. With an occasionally intellectual aire.

Fea

;)

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Perhaps what the internet does, rather than take away or add a mask, is take away a stereotype. So many times in real life we judge people before we even hear them speak based on their age, race, religion, hair color, etc. Here, since we can't see one another, there is no way that we can label each other as geek, jock, freak, etc. Instead, we hear one another speak first, and our opinions are based on our words rather than our looks. In that case, is the internet, in fact, removing the mask of preconception?
Our names can give the person an idea of who or what we may be, but not in the same way that our whole physical being can. Our names are one dimensional, usually, but our words are multi-dimensional. It seems that our internet names are chosen more so to protect ourselves because of those who can lie online and pretend to be things that they are not. By hiding behind a screenname we are able to fully be ourselves without actually revealing who we really are.
My internet name is just another name to me now, because it carried into real life. There are just as many people who call me on the phone and ask for "Tig" as there are those who ask for me by my real name. Weird, no? I actually kind of like it, because it reminds me that I am still real here, as I am everywhere. The name is just a name, but I am still me.

[HerenIstarion]

But why adopt a nickname at all, than? If you is you and Aiwendil too, why not choose your own name as a nick?

It seems I have to elaborate on this first (judging from reaction the sentence was followed with) - it was rhetorical question, folks. Still more it was dealt with in my previous posts :D.

Let me tease you a little, would you?

'What? In riddles?' said Gandalf. 'No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying.'

For the sake of democracy, I do not put the claim of [superior] wisdom forth, but the rhetorical question causing such a storm was addressed to Aiwendil mainly, who reacted in a way expected :)

Now onward we move:

To me, information is information. An emotion is information. A concept is information. Actually, I could throw us into quite off-topic realms and go on about everything being information, but I won't

Though I can sign my name right down under your statement, it is not the mind per se I value as the focus of personality, nor do I believe that the sum of my thoughts and emotions makes me myself, but rather is vehicle where my "I" resides and expresses itself by means of. I've let the slip of the tongue reveal it in my previous - it is my will, not my mind (will - the thing which chooses from numerous thoughts and emotions produced by my mind (which may be dependent on external irritants) and sent up to its judgement, supresses some, upholds some, makes a choice).

The core of our disagreement must be the fact we simply label the same things differently - I call informational imprint your (internet) words left on me just another ‘mask’ of yours, you – the ‘unmasking’ since it removed to an extent the preconceptions I may have had about you have I seen you before hearing you out.

But let me argue that the mind (definition – physical brain and emotions/thoughts produced by it) is just another ‘mask’, on a different level (mask of my will, even?). Suppose I suffer damage to my brain (God save from, theoretical computation) and loose an ability to type or even express myself verbally at all. Am I not a person anymore? (afore this is followed by storm of replies, I’ll answer myself – of course I am) But certain aspects of my person, one of my ‘masks’ is lost – there will be no more HerenIstarion around.

but my point is that if anything the self-chosen one is less of a mask than the other.

I see what you mean. Again, we differ in evaluation of the same things on minor level. I don’t label ‘mask’ as thing bad, I don’t imply it is for hiding things. But going back to ‘everything is information’ statement, I see it fit to coin the following definition:

Mask [as it is used here by yours truly] is a certain mode of self-expression person chooses at each given moment.

The curios thing which caused my re-participation (apart from osanwe, which was a catalyst) in this thread was evidence that ‘mask’ - certain mode of self-expression (that is, internet forum account), once defined with the name (with a screename) may become somehow independent, apart from the person which expresses itself through it, even modify the personality which expresses itself – i.e. grow certain features of personality and become dear in itself, not as a mode, but as a [kind of a different] person. (Personal evidence – on this very thread – my post #106 before editing was a bit nasty (my apologies, TP, but I expected something more serious in return ;)). Than I caught myself thinking – this is not the way HerenIstarion (!) should write, and edited it). Now that may be I’m overtly prone to analyzing things.

And on general level:

My initial post of the thread was about Are we really we here. Now I think it was unfortunate choice of wording, I may restate it as follows: Are we wholly we here? and answer it accordingly – No, here, as elswhere, we are partly we only. By this I don’t mean that we lose the parts that are other than expressed by words. They are here with us. But what each of us sees of another member is an imprint, a ‘mask’

I.e. I may know more about Mr.X’s mind, whom I talk about theology online with every night, than his immediate neighbour knows, whom he ‘smalltalks’ to every morning, but I know less then the neighbour in some other aspects. The will, however, as I see it, expresses itself in ‘smalltalk’ as in ‘bigtalk’ likewise. I and his neighbour may both know him for generous chap, I – as I’ve read his views on the subject, neighbour – as he lets him have his extra milk. But the thing is, as neither I nor the neighbour may boast of having direct access to Mr.X through osanwe, or whatever we choose to call it, for all we know, his generosity may be a natural thing to him or a result of great self control and worked out habit of beating his greed down. It is a ‘mask’ we see in both cases. And it is the mask that matters for us, as we have no means of access to his ‘real’ self. And another point of mine (parable of masked man) was that the longer the ‘mask’ is on, the more ‘real self’ resembles it)

[Lhunardawen]

the longer the ‘mask’ is on, the more ‘real self’ resembles it Or is it, "the longer the 'mask' is on, the more it becomes a part of your 'real self' "?

[Nimrodel_9]

Or is it, "the longer the 'mask' is on, the more it becomes a part of your 'real self' "?I sometimes find that to be true.
I tend to wear a mask around certain people, but here I don't think so. Nimrodel and Chelsie are the same people. Except I am more confident on the Downs than in "real life," and I tend to let my logic, 4.0 self go. Lets just say I am more bubbly here. When I am at school I am bubbly but there's a little more to me. I can't explain it. :p

[Holbytlass]

I am who I am. I would find it hard trying to keep up with a persona on forums where I'm posting opinions and thoughts. And I wouldn't want to either. To me, that's the whole point of a user name, to freely express one's true thoughts. My user name is fun (to me) and gives others enough info to go on. I shall never be mistaken for male and it tells who I liken myself to in Middle-earth.
If someone, for some odd reason, had to do a profile on me, they could get lots of personal info from my posts. But, as HerenIstarion pointed out about people in our own lives knowing different things about us, it would be just stuff related to this forum and not everything about me.
By the way, my given name is Rebecca. Just like Gandalf, I am called many names depending who you ask.