Gimli and the Steward's Chair

[Firefoot]

This is something that I found odd when watching RotK for the second time: during the Last Debate section of the movie, Gimli is sitting in the black Steward's chair. It seems rather strange to me that (I believe) everyone else is standing but Gimli is not only sitting but sitting in the Steward's chair. Did anyone else notice this?

[Morsul the Dark]

i noticed and i didnt think too much about it
it was merely to help with the size proportions... plus dentor is dead who cares if gimli is sitting in his chair

[Son of Númenor]

If this had occurred in the book, it might have been strange to readers, but in a movie where the Steward in question was beaten with a staff & died unceremoniously by lighting himself aflame & wailing as he jumped off the pinnacle of his city, it didn't seem all that shocking.

[Morsul the Dark]

i dont think it would have been that strange as i recall they still found merry and pippin in isengard and gimli was angry because he needed his pipeweed fix haha and he merely sat down in one of the chairs and since there are only two chairs and he throne is aragorns obviously the other chair is where he would sit have you learned nothing of the stubborness of dwarves?

[The Only Real Estel]

True, but even Gandalf still respected the Steward (though you really had to strain to catch it in the movies), & surely he wouldn't have allowed Gimli to disrespect it by sitting in it. Besides, even though he was in the Houses of Healing, Faramir was techinically the Steward, so it was his chair. It'd be different if the steward had no son & no one knew who the next one would be, but maybe PJ thought it'd be funny to have Gimli sitting in the Steward's chair.
And I'm sure Gimli sitting down wasn't that important; if anyone should be sitting down, it should've been Gandalf, who was fighting all day, & had to take on the Witch King. Gimli fought quite a bit too, but he also had the luxury of sailing around in a boat half the day too...

[Firefoot]

I still think it is rather odd. Like Estel said, it was technically Faramir's chair so there was still a steward. Though I must admit I have no respect for the way PJ handled the whole steward thing. Maybe he did just think it would be a good idea.

[Elianna]

The way I see it, not even technically was it Faramir's chair. Faramir says himself that he hasn't yet taken up the mantel of Stewardship (or something like that) while talking with Éowyn more than a week later. So it's not his chair...yet. But yeah, since they kept stubborn dwarves out of Aragorn's chair for long years, you'd think they could keep Faramir's chair empty for a couple days...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think the point of that moment is not so much that Gimli was in the chair, as the fact that somebody other than Denethor was in it, and the Throne is still empty.

Film does this kind of thing -- it uses visual cues to draw attention to iconic moments. Here, the most eye-catching person to be in the chair is Gimli (the disproportionate size makes us react to the sight as being a bit funny; the audacity of the Dwarf -- part of his character -- adds to our understanding of him). This was clearly staged by PJ to direct the audience's eyes to the fact that Gimli is there (as I recall the shot, it's just a bit to the right of centre, but still an in-focus background, with Gimli and the chair being framed by the debaters in the foreground -- we are supposed to look at him).

The point of this is, I think, two-fold. First, we see that Gimli has simply plunked himself down for a rest, which is all that this chair is good for now, since the King has come and the Steward is no longer needed. Gimli's presence in it changes the Steward's Chair into just another chair without a single word being said on the subject (the power of film). Second, we see one chair with a Dwarf in it, and another chair with no-one in it -- the Throne. Meanwhile, in the foreground, we have Aragorn, the guy who is now supposed to be on the Throne, or at least, who has the right to be, but who is most patently not sitting there. It raises the whole issue of sitting and who has the right to sit and why isn't Aragorn sitting -- in other words, it does visually what the book does through conversation between characters: Aragorn has returned, making the Seat of the Steward irrelevant (hence, it's now a comfy spot for a Dwarf); but he has not yet decided that the time is right to sit on his Throne, which remains empty.

[Ophelia]

An amazingly deep thought Fordim , that`s a fact . And if to tell the truth it had a bit of my thought aswell .
I agree that P. J. was just manipulating with the emty steward`s chair and that the returning of the King has made the chair of the Steward more or less meaningless , so even a dwarf can sit in it . So I think it really is symbolic .

Ophelia

[The Only Real Estel]

The way I see it, not even technically was it Faramir's chair. Faramir says himself that he hasn't yet taken up the mantel of Stewardship (or something like that) while talking with Éowyn more than a week later. So it's not his chair...yet.

Perhaps not techinically, but everyone still new that the chair belonged to Faramir. Just like, techinically, the throne belonged to no one because Aragorn hadn't accepted the Kingship yet; but that doesn't mean that anyone can sit in it. While the chair was not being occupied by the Steward, it was still being kept for him (or should've been).


I think the point of that moment is not so much that Gimli was in the chair, as the fact that somebody other than Denethor was in it, and the Throne is still empty.

Good point, but I think the same effect could've been achieved by showing that Denethor's chair was empty (along with the throne).

Still, though, that's a great thought, Fordim, & probably the best defense of the moment I've heard yet :).

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think you're looking at it and thinking about it so hard that you're seeing the answer you want to see. I think the only reason Gimli was in the chair smoking was because the Director thought it would be amusing and light-hearted. I doubt he put a lot of thought into it, other than "Don't sit in the throne."

[The Only Real Estel]

Eomer of the Rohirrim: I think you're looking at it and thinking about it so hard that you're seeing the answer you want to see. I think the only reason Gimli was in the chair smoking was because the Director thought it would be amusing and light-hearted. I doubt he put a lot of thought into it, other than "Don't sit in the throne."

Me: It'd be different if the steward had no son & no one knew who the next one would be, but maybe PJ thought it'd be funny to have Gimli sitting in the Steward's chair

Ah, you see, I had given that idea some thought (especially since the 'funny' moments that PJ has inserted don't usually have a lot of thought behind them), but then I thought: But that's such a boring conclusion...not to mention it would kill the conversation revolving around this topic. Well, as long as I don't have to stretch for ideas, I'll support something better for theorizing about. Or at least it went something like that. Besides, if we would have concluded that PJ just wanted to make the scene funny, we would've missed Fordim's post (a quite good one), & that wouldn't have been good at all.

[Arathiriel]

Oh yeesh - they had Gimli sitting in Denethor's chair because honestly I don't think they wanted to worry with the trouble of making Gimli look the correct size in that scene... :rolleyes:

Plain and simple... :rolleyes:

[The Only Real Estel]

Oh yeesh - they had Gimli sitting in Denethor's chair because honestly I don't think they wanted to worry with the trouble of making Gimli look the correct size in that scene...

I really doubt it. Any time you see more people than just Gimli, it likely isn't John Rys-Davies there anyway; it's his 4 foot-9 inch scale double, so they wouldn't have put that scene in because they were worried about size.

[Bombadil]

I believe it was just a flat out sign of disrespect. Estel mentions before how Gandalf respected Denethor, which is true, but I could not see any repect from Mithrandir in the movies.

Ever since TTT Gimli basically became a source of comic relief for viewers, which is too bad- yet his character was still developed as a hot-headed dwarf who strayed from being polite at times. It was rather fitting at that point to show the careless dwarf disrepecting the Stewardship of Gondor. (btw all my dwarf descriptions taken through movie characterization, not book!)

Of course before long Gimli came out with another comical line while in the chair, to further add to Jackson's characterization.

[Arathiriel]

Quote:
Oh yeesh - they had Gimli sitting in Denethor's chair because honestly I don't think they wanted to worry with the trouble of making Gimli look the correct size in that scene...


I really doubt it. Any time you see more people than just Gimli, it likely isn't John Rys-Davies there anyway; it's his 4 foot-9 inch scale double, so they wouldn't have put that scene in because they were worried about size.

Personally I still think they just had Gimli seated because they wanted him the right size without having to worry about doing something to get him that size!
:p

[Arathiriel]

Besides, if that is the scale double instead of JRD, then I have to ask why have Gimli sitting in Denethor's chair? Why not just let him stand up along with the rest of the characters instead? :rolleyes:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I wasn't speaking to you in the particular Estel, and I agree with you about the need to keep threads alive but I think this one will be ok. :)

I agree with Bombadil, that whole scene was a bit of a sham. The Last Debate chapter in the book was absolutely heart-breaking for me. In the film Gimli rounds it off with that terrible line ("Small chance of success, what are we waiting for !?") and the scene completely misses the point.

And I know this isn't necessary to point out right now, but Legolas.....A diversion? You're kidding! :rolleyes:

I really dislike this scene.

[The Only Real Estel]

Besides, if that is the scale double instead of JRD, then I have to ask why have Gimli sitting in Denethor's chair? Why not just let him stand up along with the rest of the characters instead?

Hmm...that's a good question. If fact, since it was his scale double, why not start discussing why you think PJ even put Gimli in the chair at all? Since that's what all the rest of us have been doing the whole time :). And yes, I'm quite sure that it was Gimli double in the chair, he does quite a bit of work in the movies. 'JRD' is only there for his closeups, 99% of the time. Anyway, if they wanted to have the over 6 feet tall JRD in the chair, they'd have to make an oversized one to get the scale issue right, so they'd be working just as much as they would have to to make up Bret (the 4'9 guy) & stick him in the normal-sized chair.

The Last Debate chapter in the book was absolutely heart-breaking for me. In the film Gimli rounds it off with that terrible line ("Small chance of success, what are we waiting for !?") and the scene completely misses the point.

Yes, thanks to Gimli's line, they get sent off on a comical note, instead of an all-or-nothing, likely suicidal trek. It pretty well ruined the drama/dispair of the moment. :(

[Morsul the Dark]

this is yet another time i think nobody except movie hawks will notice that it's dentor's chair and hes smoking and you just need to sit when your have a pipe

[Arathiriel]

Besides, if that is the scale double instead of JRD, then I have to ask why have Gimli sitting in Denethor's chair? Why not just let him stand up along with the rest of the characters instead?


Hmm...that's a good question. If fact, since it was his scale double, why not start discussing why you think PJ even put Gimli in the chair at all? Since that's what all the rest of us have been doing the whole time . And yes, I'm quite sure that it was Gimli double in the chair, he does quite a bit of work in the movies. 'JRD' is only there for his closeups, 99% of the time. Anyway, if they wanted to have the over 6 feet tall JRD in the chair, they'd have to make an oversized one to get the scale issue right, so they'd be working just as much as they would have to to make up Bret (the 4'9 guy) & stick him in the normal-sized chair.

Okay, you all think what you want and I'll think what I want until I hear it out of the horse's mouth that was the scale double and NOT JRD himself - K?

:p :rolleyes: :p

[Arathiriel]

Oh and the only problem I had with this scene was Legolas' duh statement with "A diversion" line!

As that one ROTK parody states, "Well thank you, Paraphrase Boy!"

Honestly that to me is the worst line in the movie and possibly the worst line in the trilogy as well!

[Bombadil]

I agree Arathiriel. Legolas holds so much more wisdom in the books than what that line gives him credit for.

And on a side note I'll add that I believe your theory is credible, as Peter Jackson thought of many creative ways to size down his bigger actors liek JRD. Ho hum very credible indeed! :cool: