I just want to see the sailboat!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

As much as I'd like to offer a fascinating new insight into the decision-making processes of the filmmaking team, I am instead going to offer a place for you to give your thoughts on little, random unimportant parts of the trilogy as a whole. Namely, those things that didn't feel quite right to you.

No doubt some people will want to lecture me on why I should just stop nitpicking, and those people are probably the most sensible among us. However, there is one part in the film which I have never been able to truly accept and it is driving me up the wall with madness. It is a prop, which features in a very important scene in the final film. That prop is...The Phial of Galadriel.

I cannot watch the scene in Shelob's lair without thinking "What is Frodo holding?" That's not a mighty Elven weapon against evil, that's the ornament that's sitting in my living room right now! When I think about it logically I cannot see the problem. After all, what else were the filmmakers going to do? Indeed, what was Tolkien's vision of this? I can't explain it but it just seems so wrong to me. I cannot see it.

This is my problem. I'm sure that at least some of you out there have ridiculous problems with the films. If not, then perhaps you'd like to help me out and offer some sound psychological advice to me.

[Morsul the Dark]

Perhaps not so entirely important but Sam doesnt leave in Bag End...yes the Phial was wrong dont know why but it was...

[Sandro]

The whole cloak thing. It wasn't wxplained in the theatrical FOTR what they did, so a lot of people were confused when Sam and Frodo hid under it in TTT. I must have explained that to about 20 people. :cool:

[Morsul the Dark]

Edoras didnt seem as grand(even if it was corrupted) as I thought i should have been I thought Edoras being the main city of Rohan would be bigger

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ah good point Morsul. I had not previously been conscious of my conflicting image of Edoras when watching the movie but now that you mention it, it doesn't seem to fit either. It looked a bit like one nice big building and a couple of farm cottages around it. I had imagined a grander arena. Let that take away nothing from the background setting however, as those mountains and countryside were just about perfect.

[InklingElf]

Ah good point Morsul. I had not previously been conscious of my conflicting image of Edoras when watching the movie but now that you mention it, it doesn't seem to fit either. It looked a bit like one nice big building and a couple of farm cottages around it. I had imagined a grander arena. Let that take away nothing from the background setting however, as those mountains and countryside were just about perfect.

Agreed, though I'd like to think it was sufficient enough given the budget for all the structures etc. But that's just my sensible side. I still dream of a grander Edoras.

[Knight of Gondor]

I won't spend time defending why I liked the movie...although I would if you posted your disappointments in the post from a while back, "Everything wrong with LotR (Not ee)" or something like that.

Inkling, love your signature.

[The Only Real Estel]

Gollum didn't quite feel right at many points during RotK. Rather, I should say that he didn't look quite right. Sometimes his face seemed to have changed from the Gollum I saw in TTT into a more Andy Serkis-like face in RotK. Some of his expressions just didn't seem to fit right the 1st time I saw it, though that might be just me.

[Morsul the Dark]

gollum was alright i think in fact he was awesome

the orc head on the stake when the three hunters go to the orc pile..its tounge is sticking out and looks entirely A) fake and B) comicalI thought an orc helm would have been more symbolic and less comcal (symbollic of the ineffectiveness of armor against the rohirim

[Gorwingel]

The Phial didn't bother me, but the whole cloak dissapearing thing didn't make sense at all in the film. They didn't (if I remember correctly) explain at all what the cloak did. So if you were not at all famillar with the books, you would have been completely lost.

I too also thought that Edoras should have been grander, Gondor should have been bigger, the Plennor Fields should have been larger, the Grey Havens were not right, and... oh... I could go on and on for hours ;)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Perhaps I should reiterate. This thread is not designed for flaws and mistakes in the films. It is for things that just didn't feel right to you. The Phial example for me, and several others posted are not flaws as such, rather things which make you uneasy and a bit strange, regardless of any convincing argument as to why.

[Saraphim]

One thing that bugged me was the way the Witch-King died. He sort of reminded me of a chicken, but other than that it was fine from a logical standpoint. It still bothers me...

[Gorwingel]

Perhaps I should reiterate. This thread is not designed for flaws and mistakes in the films. It is for things that just didn't feel right to you

Well those are things that don't feel right to me

I don't find them to be flawed, it is just that I wish they would have done it differently. Like for example the Grey Havens were beautiful, but they just didn't seem right in my opinion :cool:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Please Gorwingel, take no offence. The comment was not aimed at you. :)

[radagastly]

I must say that I, too, expected more from the Grey Havens. They kind of worked, and were really beautiful, but I think I imagined them broader and sunnier, more like a vast seaport city. They just seemed so small compared to what I was expecting.

But then, so was all of Mordor. I realize why Peter Jackson filmed it the way he did, the focus needing to shift from the Black Tower to Mount Doom to the Black Gate etc., but it still seemed at times that you could fit the whole country into my backyard.

[Sapphire_Flame]

the orc head on the stake when the three hunters go to the orc pile

I think that was because PJ always has to have *something* being impaled in his movies. It's like his trademark. ;)

I would have to watch all the movies again to point out things I was uneasy about, as I can't think of anything at the moment. Some people, though, *coughmydadcough* could post a list a mile long with what bothered them about the films.

Eomer, I would love to know what you did picture the Phial being like. I always pictured a bottle shaped like a lightbulb, but... *sheepish grin*

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Morsul the Dark]

The white orcs...not sure why I assume orcs could be purple for all i know but for the first two movies throughout the books I pictured dark sinister creatures the orcs in ROTK threw me off I was like woag white orcs

[The Saucepan Man]

... that's the ornament that's sitting in my living room right now!Yes, but haven't you sometimes wondered why your living room is so blissfully free of elephant-sized spiders? ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

The sailboat, eh, Eomer? I thought that felt a bit odd... always did think there should have been a nice modern-day sailboat floating down the Anduin. And I HAD always wondered why my house lacked oversized arachnids... The small ones we have aplenty (they abound in old houses), but Shelob sized? God bless my various vials.

Honestly though, I don't much like Galadriel's phial either. I have no idea why, as I didn't really have much of a mental image to contrast it with. It's not wrong exactly... just not right.

Another thing that didn't feel quite right to me was the staircase up to Celeborn and Galadriel's in Lothlorien. I'd always seen it as more of an elaborately carved ladder, with many wellplaced rest stops, not a big spiral staircase. It just tweaks a nerve every time I see it, as pretty and logical as it is.

Fea

[The Only Real Estel]

Another thing that didn't feel quite right to me was the staircase up to Celeborn and Galadriel's in Lothlorien. I'd always seen it as more of an elaborately carved ladder, with many wellplaced rest stops, not a big spiral staircase. It just tweaks a nerve every time I see it, as pretty and logical as it is.

It reminds me to much of the Ewok's many spiral staircases in Star Wars...

I've got one foot on each side of the line on the phial issue. While I thought it was a little wierd/iffy feeling at first, I quickly warmed up to it & now it's pretty close to just fine for me. Or at least until the elephant-sized spiders come back ;).

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Sapphire_Flame, that is my problem! I have no idea what I think the Phial should look like. All I know is that the Phial in the film makes me uneasy, and I can't understand why.

Saucepan, your suggestion certainly seems to make sense. We did have one elephant-sized spider on our staircase once, but it made a point of never venturing into the living room.

Fea, (and everyone else interested), there are bonus points for whoever guesses the film from which the title of this thread was taken.

[Morsul the Dark]

Ill wager its something from Monty Python...

perhaps MP and the Meaning of Life?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fea, (and everyone else interested), there are bonus points for whoever guesses the film from which the title of this thread was taken.
Ooh, bonus points. All right, Eomer. You strike me as the type of guy who would steal an idea from... [que the music: duhn duhn duhn]... Mallrats. How's my accuracy? Right? Wrong? Do I belong in an asylum with a big strong guard named Biff? ;)

Fea

[Sirithheruwen]

All I know is that the Phial in the film makes me uneasy, and I can't understand why.

Uneasy? Maybe you have spider-blood. :eek: Don't worry, I know where you're coming from, Eomer. The phial didn't feel right to me either. Actually, the size was fine except I thought it was too small. But that's just me.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Regarding the Phial, it's heartening to know that I'm not alone.

Fea, you are right, and you are now the recipient of bonus points awarded by me. Well done! :)

It was indeed Mallrats (the only Kevin Smith film I like, by the way).

[Neferchoirwen]

*mumbles*

the ships weren't as shiply as I expected...

[Morsul the Dark]

Why is it every time i see the Deagal/Smeagal scene I cringe? Oh right, because Smeagal uses a worm that is so utterly small on a rather large hook, the worm doesnt even look like it fits. Not sure if i consider this a blooper, but i bugs me

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fea, you are right, and you are now the recipient of bonus points awarded by me. Well done!

It was indeed Mallrats (the only Kevin Smith film I like, by the way).
YES!!! I just LOOOOOOVE getting bonus points. :D As for the last bit of your quote... no Dogma?

Another thing that tweaks my "right" nerve is... Haldir. I can't stand him in the movies, and I have no plausible reason to dislike him. The acting was great, the costuming, everything... I have no good reason. I just don't like Haldir. He's not... right. He's not wrong, just not right.

Fea

[Sapphire_Flame]

I have no good reason. I just don't like Haldir.

I'll agree with you on that one. There was absolutely no reason not to like him, but I just didn't like him in the films!

The white orcs...

That really, really annoyed me. It was too much of a contrast from what was shown in the first two films. Plus there is the e-vile continuity to look at. I mean, come on: the dark lord, the dark tower, the dark land... and the albino orcs? :confused:

(I may get *ARROWED!* for saying this...) I didn't really like Legolas in the movies. Maybe it's his "Captain Obvious" moments, or the drastic change of character, but I wasn't too fond of his portrayal. The image I had was of a slightly sarcastic, smart-alecky elf, joking about bringing the sun down to melt the snow on Caradhras and waving at the two snow-bound men as he jogs off over the snow. MovieLegolas was... a bit flat, really. *shrugs*

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Sirithheruwen]

(I may get *ARROWED!* for saying this...) I didn't really like Legolas in the movies. Maybe it's his "Captain Obvious" moments, or the drastic change of character, but I wasn't too fond of his portrayal. The image I had was of a slightly sarcastic, smart-alecky elf, joking about bringing the sun down to melt the snow on Caradhras and waving at the two snow-bound men as he jogs off over the snow. MovieLegolas was... a bit flat, really. *shrugs*

*jumps in front of the arrows aimed Saphy's way* I agree with you on that. His portrayal wasn't necessarilly bad, but it was completely different (to me) than book Legolas.

[Neferchoirwen]

I really liked the idea of Sauron's eye acting like a red spot light (more like a pen light suited to his scale...), but everytime I think about it now, it seems edgy.

[Saraphim]

I've been trying to place the Phial for a while now. I know I'd seen it before, but something on this thread to do with living rooms prompted me to remember. A few years back I recieved a bottle of extremely unpleasant, and probably cheap, perfume.

I won't get into the particulars, but I have never worn perfume for the entire duration of my life, and I think I threw it away.

But my point is that the perfume I recieved was in the Phial of Galadriel. It smelled then, and it bothers me now.

The image I had was of a slightly sarcastic, smart-alecky elf, joking about bringing the sun down to melt the snow on Caradhras and waving at the two snow-bound men as he jogs off over the snow.
Sarcasm being my life-blood, I liked Legolas immensly for his snarkish ways, but he was, as you said, Saphy, flattened in the movie.

Was anyone else bothered by the Gondorian Armor? I know I was, and with absolutely no plausable reason why.

[Encaitare]

I didn't really like Legolas in the movies. Maybe it's his "Captain Obvious" moments, or the drastic change of character, but I wasn't too fond of his portrayal. The image I had was of a slightly sarcastic, smart-alecky elf, joking about bringing the sun down to melt the snow on Caradhras and waving at the two snow-bound men as he jogs off over the snow. MovieLegolas was... a bit flat, really. *shrugs*

Well, after coming to my senses and realizing that Orlando Bloom is an immense pansy, I decided movie-Legolas was dumb. His only purpose, as Sapphire_Flame says, is to be "Captain Obvious" and point out what kind of nasty creatures are coming, ie: Orcs! Goblins! Crebain from Dunland! And then shoot them whenever possible.

You really didn't get that much of the development in the Legolas/Gimli friendship. The EE is a little better, but not as well done as in the books. In the EE FotR DVD, there's that one scene when they're outside Moria, and Gandalf and Gimli are saying how Dwarf doors are invisible when shut and their own masters cannot find them if their secrets are forgotten, and Legolas mutters, "Why doesn't that surprise me?" Then a minute later, Gimli says,

Soon Master Elf, you will enjoy the fabled hospitality of the dwarves! Roaring fires, malt beer, red meat off the bone! This, my friend, is the home of my cousin Balin. And they call it a mine. A MINE!

He could of course be using "my friend" in a sarcastic manner, but it doesn't sound like it. Then after the gift-giving scene, they have a nice friendly little moment with Leggy asking Gimli what his gift was. Very nice, but you're mostly left to figure out for yourself how the animosity ended and when the friendship began. The book talks about how Legolas would go off into the woods in Lothlorien and take Gimli with him, much to the surprise of the rest of the Fellowship, but since in movie-world they're only in Lorien for the night, you kind of lose all that.

As for the Gondorian armor, I loved it. I thought it was beautiful, and I loved the Tree done in relief on the front. What I think is just dumb is this:

http://www.ninecompanions.net/thumbnails/rotkpics/rotk_gondoriansoldier_1.JPG

He looks like a strong wind could send him flying at any moment! Silly winged helmets.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

I would have to agree on the Phial thing, just because it looks like a simple piece of glass actually, and not something very important. It just looks cheap.
But on the other hand, how were they supposed to do it differently?
Although I must say I don't feel that uneasy when seeing it.

What makes me uneasy, is Gandalf's staff, as they enter the Mines of Moria.
When he says: "Let's make some light" or something along those lines, and then the top of the staff starts glowing. It's a bit the same impression I have as with the Phial, it just looks cheap.

And, another little thing: The first time we see Sauron in FOTR, he stands there with his ring on his hand, and that looks like a scene from, well, the Power Rangers or something.... :p

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Cheers Mariska, I will never again be able to watch the Sauron scene without cringing. ;)

[Encaitare]

What makes me uneasy, is Gandalf's staff, as they enter the Mines of Moria. When he says: "Let's make some light" or something along those lines, and then the top of the staff starts glowing.

This bugged me for a while until I looked closer and realized that he actually fits a little crystal-like thing into the top of the staff, and this is where the light is coming from. Makes a little more sense to me that way.

[Morsul the Dark]

Ive never liked Orthanc...It was built by Gondorians just think it would be more Beatiful but then again maybe its because of the destruction surrounding it because with all the trees it looked kind of nce...I still think it was to pointy though for Gondorians.

[Encaitare]

Actually it was built by the Numenoreans... I suppose they're quite similar but maybe the Numenoreans have drastically different tastes in decor. Orthanc did look less evil with the pretty gardens and everything, though. The Numenoreans also built the Black Gates, I believe, but I think Sauron did that nasty corruption thing he does so often and so well and made them look more intimidating.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

[Morsul the Dark]

yeah,,,numenorians thats what i meant I forgot if it was them or numnoreans..

Well the black gates would be built intimidating like yellow "do not Cross" police tape

But Orthanc was given to Saruman leader of the white council

[The Only Real Estel]

When he says: "Let's make some light" or something along those lines, and then the top of the staff starts glowing. It's a bit the same impression I have as with the Phial, it just looks cheap

It probably looks so cheap because the crystal on top looks like a little lightbulb or something :rolleyes:.

[Gorwingel]

I've been trying to place the Phial for a while now. I know I'd seen it before, but something on this thread to do with living rooms prompted me to remember. A few years back I recieved a bottle of extremely unpleasant, and probably cheap, perfume.
To me it looks like a white bubble light

You know those lights that you put on your Christmas tree with a large bulb in the bottom and a thin glass vial filled with liquid that bubbles when it heats to a certain temperature (they are usually multi-colored, but I happen to have a white strand). During the holidays last year I even removed one of the bulbs off the strand and pretended that it was actually the phial (stupid, I know).

But yes, it does look a little cheap, especially if they took their insperation from a commonplace holiday decoration :)

[Sapphire_Flame]

Silly winged helmets.

I nearly die laughing every time I see those things. So silly. :rolleyes:

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

A scene of true wrongness is this: the lighting of the beacons in The Return of the King. I do not blame the wrongness on Gandalf's interference. I do not blame the wrongness on Pippen's wall-climb. I do not even blame the wrongness on inept guards (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=194)or Denathor's uncaring. My blame lies soley on the fact that there were fire-toting guards on the very tops of high mountains, and when the cameras pan, there are no houses, no sheds, no bleedin' shelters made of sticks even, where these men could have come from. No, there are simply random pairs of men frolicking at the tops of mountains, with fire prepared to light beacons that have not been lit in years, and no places to sit and have a nice mug of ale while they wait for an unexpected signal!

Does anybody else share with me in cringing horribly every time they see this scene?

Fea

[Encaitare]

Hah! Yes, that did have me wondering. I don't find it cringe-worthy, but I saw them and thought to myself, "What, do these guys just chill on top of mountains in sub zero weather waiting for some beacons to light?" I loved the scene for what it was; the camera work and music were great, but it was just a little weird.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I had never noticed that before. Well spotted, and yes, it will make me groan next time I see it.

[The Saucepan Man]

... and yes, it will make me groan next time I see it.And that's a good thing? :rolleyes: ;)

I must admit that it did occur to me first time I saw the film that beacon-lighting duty would not exactly be the most enviable posting for a Gondorian soldier, but it most certainly didn't (and won't) spoil what I thought was a visually fantastic sequence. :cool:

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I have another bothering thing about the beacons. The whole scene is breathtakingly beautiful, yes, but if a beacon is on top of a mountain that high, that it's surrounded by clouds and mist, how does the next beacon litters know they should get a fire going?

I, for one, liked the look of the Phial but I wasn't very contended with the way Frodo and Sam held it. I don't know, how they should have held it but now their palms covered half of it. It would have been more efficient if they had held it some other way so the light could have shone better or something.

[Sapphire_Flame]

The whole scene is breathtakingly beautiful, yes, but if a beacon is on top of a mountain that high, that it's surrounded by clouds and mist, how does the next beacon lighters know they should get a fire going?

Good question. :confused:

Torech Ungol bothered me a bit. Didn't Tolkien describe the walls and floor as being smooth? And in the film, said walls and floor are pock-marked and uneven. Hello? PJ? You did read the books thoroughly, right?

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Child of the 7th Age]

I did want to point out that there are actually some parallels in real life regarding the isolation of "beacon" duty. On a vacation trip to the Middle East several years ago, we took a ride in a four-wheel drive vehicle along a very desolate stretch of territory. We were the only car on the road heading for a remote spot on the Egyptian/Israeli border.

When we got to where we were going, there were two tiny posts on each side of the border. On the Israeli side, there were two soldiers posted in a lookout that was hung out over the edge of a cliff -- not actually a mountain but a rugged hilly range. Far off in the distance, we could see a tall tower with many steps leading up to it stuck out in the middle of nowhere-- it looked like my idea of a forest ranger lookout. At the top of the tower was a single Egyptian soldier peering down at the border through binoculars. My daughter started to jump up and down, frantically waving towards the Egyptian soldier. He peered back through his binoculars and also began waving happily at us. It was one of the high points of our vacation.

The Israeli soldiers explained they had been stationed here for a week, and we were the first people that had been by. They were slated to leave on the following Sunday. Apparently, at one time, this particular location had been a real "hot spot" on the border, with problems breaking out all the time. Now, it was a sleepy backwater, but someone was still required to stand guard.

Lighting beacons wasn't just something that PJ made up: it was an actual communication device heavily used in ancient times. The ancient Hebrews, for example, kept sentries located on the tops of hills for most of the year. They lit the beacons to tell the people when a particular Jewish holiday was starting. The beacons would start off in Jerusalem, and the fires were lit to the most remote corners of the kingdom, crossing over deserts and wastelands as well. No one had calendars, and this was the easiest way to make sure that everyone did things at the right time. They undoubtedly used this same device to warn people about impending warfare as well.

So PJ's device has some validity. Just think of it this way....if you had to choose between being in a front line to face a charging oliphaunt, or a little rugged camping out in a remote area, which duty posting would you pick? Under those circumstances, the beacon lighting duty starts to look better and better!

[The Saucepan Man]

Just think of it this way....if you had to choose between being in a front line to face a charging oliphaunt, or a little rugged camping out in a remote area, which duty posting would you pick? Under those circumstances, the beacon lighting duty starts to look better and better!Point taken! :D

And, of course, the idea of beacons serving as a quick form of communication between Gondor and Rohan in times of war does come straight from the pages of LotR. Admittedly, Tolkien's beacons are placed on the foothills of the White Mountains and therefore avoid some of the problems highlighted here. But I would rather the beautiful sequence shown in the film than a series of hilltop bonfires. :rolleyes: ;)

[mark12_30]

"They also serve who only stand and wait."

Sentries guarding any remote outpost as Child has said.

Forest rangers.

Lighthouse wardens.

Those of us who remember the cold war: how'd you like to be stationed on the Canadian shield watching for incoming ICBMs?

...I'll stop there.

[Encaitare]

Well, Child more or less shot the beacon complaint down! ;) Nice post, though... now I don't feel so irked.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

In reply to your (possibly rhetorical) question Saucepan Man, I would have to say yes. I crave misery, and the entire reason that this thread was created was to plant ridiculous images into my mind so that I would never again enjoy the films.

Seriously though, interesting post Child.