When You Are Oppressed, Or Ten Weighty Reasons for Teenagers and Their Parents

[HerenIstarion]

Recently I was complained to by PM - certain parents laid down a ban for their child to come here.

The thread to follow is a result of my reflections upon the subject. As the last thing we wish for is the war between parents and children around the BD haunting issue (there must be a tension enough even without it, in case my MTV videoclip-based deductions may be trusted, o'course ;)), I think that parleys should be started off.

As far as I can judge, visiting BD is verily wholesome, not vice versa, and for the following ten reasons (or, when teenager (or anyone, for the matter) comes to BD, s/he achieves/learns):

1. Improvement of writing skills (anyplace)
2. Vocabulary improvement (the Books, RPG)
3. Basics of literary criticism (the Books, Sil public forum)
4. Basics of philology (The Books, Sil public forum)
5. Basics of historiography (The Books, Sil public forum)
6. Imrpovement of creative skills (RPG)
7. Improvement of typing skills (anyplace)
8. Basics of business language (The BD - announcements)
9. Improvement of communicative skills (Middle Earth Mirth, Novices & Newcomers)
10. Basics of cinematographic criticism (The Movies)

Of course, the place visited - virtue got pair relation is optional. The whole mix of it comes as one package from visiting any corner of the BD. But it is more concrete to have them separated. I believe that once parents consider the list given above (but you should be calm and clever, without nerves and histerics, no yelling, preferable behavioral pattern - convincing and sure tone of voice and steady eye contact), all prohibitions may be withdrawn.

Any ideas which may extend the list are highly welcome, as the list is hasty and from the top of my head (I like 'top ten' indexing, but the more, the better).

Just promise to let your eyes rest for ten minutes every hour (to avoid sight damage), and to make some excercise every two (and thus keep away from dangers your backbone is exposed to as a result of constant sitting). Also make sure that homework comes first - after all, said may need a BD as a resource - when one has a paper on Tolkien to write, per instance). It would be wise to keep said promises too.

cheers

[Morsul the Dark]

Keeps you off drugs LOTR is one reason I never did drugs

I think this site is good for all the reasons you said as well as others which I cant think of now

ok
1)no drugs(anything lotr)
2)debating skills(a fe topics this one included)
3)Problem Solving(quiz room)
4)Logical reasoning (cryptic clues)

[Lhunardawen]

I can totally relate to this. My brother and I had countless debates with our mum as to whether our LotR addiction (and with it, The Downs) does more harm than good to us.

But in this forum I have learned to analyze even minor details of the story, which is especially helpful since we discuss Literature in English class.

More to come.

[Imladris]

11. Improvement of logic/rhetoric (Books/Novs & Newcomers/whenever there is a point to be debated)

~~~~~ above was a cross posting and I don't feel like editing it ~~~~~

But also you learn to keep "purity" in works. IE, keeping fanfiction/RPG canon.

Also, discussing the books in depthly cultivates the mind and imagination. Hanging around on these forums forces one to think about the books, as well as putting their thoughts accurately into words. In a word, it helps you appreciate literature.

[Sirithheruwen]

My parents banned me, and the ban is still on.

That was a year ago.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Heren

I am in an interesting postion here. One of my offspring is a current, active poster who started out with one account and now has another. This poster's name shall go unspoken, since he/she wisely wishes to maintain an independent identity. (I even asked 'permission' to respond to this thread. :rolleyes: ) I am unsure if there are other Downs families where more than one generation is posting.

I actually encouraged my offspring to try out this site after seeing the movies and starting the books. My reasons for doing so included many of those points you and others have cited above. Both as a mom and a former librarian and history prof, I have been incredibly impressed with the way many have "blossomed" in terms of their writing and analytic skills. Some have stayed on the site; others have gone on to other things, some of which were connected with writing and creative expression. I firmly believe that posting here can be a positive thing: both as a way to relax and to learn some things that have relevence at school and work.

As a parent, the kind of things I would be concerned about would be these: having schoolwork suffer; spending too much time in front of the computer so things like friendships, family life, or physical activity are shortchanged; and making sure kids follow the general rules about safety on the net. Other than that, I don't see a downside. Yeah, I know.....I sound like a mom! There is a lot of Sam Gamgee in me.

Is the issue really the Downs, or is it "time management"? Sometimes parents will respond positively if you offer to put limits on yourself, e.g., only after homework, or only a one-hour slot or thirty minute slot "X" times per week. Or do your parents simply not understand that this is a family friendly site, unlike a lot of other Tolkien ones I've seen? Or is it just their unfamiliarity with Tolkien? It's one thing seeing your child spend hours doing something that you understand and appreciate--watching baseball, for example. It's another to have them involved with something unfamiliar to you. Maybe the first thing to do is to find out their objection before deciding how to respond.

[Thorongil]

I agree that the problem could be the time. My mother thinks I spend too much time on the net, but I don't think she has a problem with this site. I myself can only find positive things about the site. Everyday I learn something new about LotR, I get to test that knowledge in the Quiz Room. I also get to practise my english. Being norwegian, I don't get many chances to do that.

[Mithalwen]

I would say that the trans-age trans-culture communication thing is a big plus... and given that LOTR so often appeals to people who have hit adolescence with an almighty thump...... it might even be a life-saver ..... I might have had a much happier and less isolated time in my teens had the net been around then .... lone geek ....... Teenagers are notorious for not talking to their own parents... I guess it is natural for parents to fear that their kids will get lured by some predatory pervert ... but the net can provide a wonderful outlet for self expression and a source of support.....

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Alas, I know of this parental dislike all too well. My parents fully support most of what I do, but I'm not entirely sure they understand my fascination with Tolkien's world. I'm pretty sure, as well, that they don't exactly like how much time I spend online, but as I spend more time offline and fully in the "real world" with friends, family, and others, they don't complain much.

The way I see it, being an active member on this forum has improved my communication and analytical thinking skills. I am more able to pick up on subtleties in writing and respond accordingly. My thoughts may not be much more organized, but my ways of expressing them are.

Also, being in constant communication from people of all walks (and generations) of life is a very interesting experience. Not many highschoolers get to speak to and create friendships with people from all over the world.

Fea

[The Perky Ent]

Here's one: The Quiz Room teaches sharing and taking turns

Not something to be on the list, but just a kindergarden benefactor for the quiz room. There's a system, and you follow it. And if you do something against the system, you fix it and don't do it again! Teaches responcibility. Yes, most of those things on the list I've benefited. But, my parents don't strike me down about the downs. I have a reason. I get good grades. If anyone here on the downs is getting better grades, especially in English, tell your parents. Say, "I got this because I learned. It's a place where I'm introducted to many intelectual things!" And if they say no, go on anyway ;) However, if you aren't getting good grades, and your parents say it's cause of the downs, just say "I've been getting bad grades because I've been cuttin class to hang out by the (insert local gas/convience store here)" Your parents will be concerned about your cutting class, and won't have time to worry about the Downs ;)

If I'm not beging a good help, I apologize.


Oh, and also, the Downs (especially RPGS) helps spelling!

[HerenIstarion]

Is the issue really the Downs, or is it "time management"? Sometimes parents will respond positively if you offer to put limits on yourself, e.g., only after homework, or only a one-hour slot or thirty minute slot "X" times per week

My very words:

Just promise to let your eyes rest for ten minutes every hour (to avoid sight damage), and to make some excercise every two (and thus keep away from dangers your backbone is exposed to as a result of constant sitting). Also make sure that homework comes first ... It would be wise to keep said promises too

But the issue is really deeper than it seems at the first glance.

I do believe that if anyone restricted by tutelage of parents not sharing Tolkien addictiveness (and I am grieved to point that all of us are Tolkien addicts to an extent) wishes to spend X hours at the screen, the general strategy is to show people in charge that time spent at the Downs is wholesome in itself, regardless the issues, and more so than merely pleasant.

(- eat the green stuff, its wholesome
- but it is not tasty, I'd rather go for candy
- no candies, they rot your teeth
- why, oh why all the food that is wholesome should be absolutely insipid!)

Your very words:

It's another to have them involved with something unfamiliar to you.

Alas, but the list of unfamiliar things which allegedly are pleasent (at first), and then bring harm may be extended to include drugs, alcohol, smoking and other unhealthy activities. So any activity which is not understood by guardian but is apparently pleasing the ward may be included into the category in one sweep of parental judgement. The logical pair - Drinking/Tolkien fascinates my ward = Drinking/Tolkien is dangerous in the long run (alas, but I've seen real life cases).

Besides, with all this media talk about nerds, weirds and maniac - worshippers who over-read Tolkien, dressed up as elves (dwarves, 15 foot rabbits) and did horrid things make parents who never read Tolkien uneasy. So the strategic battle of 'bring your parent to Professor's altar' may be seen by parent in question as highly suspicious, and may make them stress on the 'altar' in particular (though we do not have altars, don't we?), and if started from advertising Tolkien as Tolkien. That is the second step, I believe :)

But first step must be (I believe) letting guardian see that activity which is pleasant is also wholesome. After letting them grow accustomed with the idea, one may come out with - 'and that's not just because, but for the Professor', or with 'Now as we all know how much do I get from this site, do you mind we all read the Books?'

But all of the above is for the people who are banned from the site. If you already have mutual admiration society to support you, no need to make 'buy this hoover for only 99.99 and you'll get...' type of fool of yourself

(- hey, mom (dad, uncle, yer honour, reverend Brown), I've found the candy which is tasty and wholesome!
- Can't be, there is no wholesome candies!
- But look, here, look at the list of its properties which are good for you
- What list? Lemme see, um, er, yes, but is it, really?
- And the list is approved of by Co7A, who is parent and teacher herself, and this H-I chap who made it is only 31.3% geek (http://www.innergeek.us/) and works in a bank, and is a swimmer and has a Master's degree (I know I'm vain, but it for the sake of the Case :p) And I've already done my homework, made 10 pull-ups on the bar out there and focused on Mr Grey's car, which is 200 yards away for the whole of ten minutes!
- Allright, since it is so wholesome, er, um, I suppose you may have it...)

It was all advertisement, after all. (and yet, advertisements are not convincing if there is less than 80% truth to them ;))

Some time thence:

(- Um, kid, you are eating those candies all the time, and it does you good - you seem more litarate, and homework is always done, and biceps are growing, as you exercise - would you let us have some too?)

[Mithalwen]

Well I guess I spent too much time in Middle Earth but since I had my nose in a book all the time they assumed it was ok......... lol ...strange they didn't really look into what I was reading and somethings were way more unsuitable than Tolkien... just somehow reading = good computer = bad........

Actually I studied linguistics because of Tolkien...... and if you want to add to the list of responsible adults I have a couple of degrees in literature and a post-grad teaching cert, and taught in a university .... however some might think my drinking habits leave something to be desired ..... but a glass of red a day is more or less compulsory these days..... ;)

Actually show your parents some of the discussion threads.... I bet they will be impressed even if they haven't read Tolkien ... I mean despite the lit. degrees I was completely awestruck by the level of some of the threads here.... they will probably make the downs compulsory!!!

Oh I only ranked 21% geek .... but then there were a lot questions only applicable/understandable to Americans..

[Diamond18]

I conveniently avoided most parental problems by joining the Barrow Downs three days before my 18th birthday. I had not spent much time online prior to that. Now I am a part of email lists, post regularly here, have sampled other forums, surf using Google, and instant message with YIM, all on a daily basis. (And that's in addition to burying myself in Word for hours on end, writing fiction.) The 'Downs was my first real internet addiction, and therefore the one most logically to blame for all following ones. :p If you kiddies want to scare your parents, tell them that Tolkien can lead to a life of staying on the computer till 6 in the morning, rather than out partying till 6! ;) Oh wait, I'm the only one who is scared by that....

To be serious, I suspect the most postive aspect of the 'Downs from a parental perspective would be the communicative and debating skills. You don't need the internet to become proficient in writing skills such as grammar and spelling, but to be able to put these skills to such regular use is invaluable. Forums in general, and high standard forums such as the BD in particular, present a great challenge to express, explain, and debate opinions and ideas. Daily exercise.

I only scored 15.77909% on that Geek test, incidentally. In my opinion it was too computer and Sci Fi based. I am sure I'd score much higher on a more literature/fantasy based geek test.

[Lalwendë]

I have to say that I'm really impressed by the things I've seen on the 'Downs which have been written by younger members - you all deserve a big round of applause! This is especially encouraging when all you seem to hear these days is how teenagers are 'delinquents' etc. I always thought this was nonsense and you are proof of this. I trained as a teacher (didn't go into it as a career though, it scared me), and if I was teaching now, I'd recommend this site to any of my students who were into Tolkien.

In my current job I see a lot of papers about technology and education, and how greater use of t'Internet (sorry, I've been watching Peter Kay...) is to be encouraged, as it's seen as a way of getting 'disengaged' people involved in society. But I also see how many people are scared of computer technology simply because they don't understand it. As an example, there are a scarily high number of people in the UK who refuse to learn about IT, even if they are offered free use of a PC. So if anyone has non-IT literate parents who are worried about online activity, I'd say that first of all, try to get them learning about what fun it can be themselves (get them looking for bargains online, that usually works!). Or simply be open and let them see what you're doing online and that it's nothing scary! But, if all else fails, I'd say be patient and go along with what they want, because it's never good to upset your parents (sorry, I know that sounds all grown-up!!!).

I was lucky in that my parents indulged, or perhaps tried to ignore, my various obsessions. They actually had two Tolkien obsessed children, and encouraged things like D&D evenings at our house. I suppose they were happy that none of us were getting involved in crime or anything dangerous.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

My mother holds fully to the "For all you know you could be talking to some 40-year-old pervert petifile!" thing. I did tell her that this is a very family-friendly site, and that any problems of the creepy-git variety are quickly dealt with, but she gave me a patented maternal look and just said "You just be careful" in this tone she's got.

Fea

[HerenIstarion]

Printable version :)

[Brinniel]

I have to say that my experience on the BD as a teenager has been overall an excellent one. I know there are many parents out there who are afraid of letting their children get involved with online forums, but when it's something like the BD, being involved online can be good for the child.

After reading RPGs that I have taken part in, I've noticed how tremendously I've improved in my creative writing skills over a year's time. I spent hours on those RPGs, using a thesaurus to perfect my writing, and refusing to stop perfecting it until I reached my high standards of what I hoped would be a professional quality of writing. And it paid off. Not only have I noticed improvements in writing stories, but I can now write poetry real well (something I used to hate).

Not only has the BD improved my creative writing, but also the quality of my essay writing, particularly persuasive. Anytime I wanted to argue an issue, I wrote carefully, supporting each of my opinions with facts, something that is essential to essay writing.

Obviously, the BD improved my overall knowledge of Tolkien's works. Reading different topics in the forum have helped me understand many details of his books better than before and I've learned to appreciate all Tolkien's hard work and effort he put into these books.

And lastly, BD has improved my self-esteem. Being active in something online that's actually eduactional, has made me feel quite good about myself. I'm able to converse with people I normally would never meet about something I love.

My parents have never been bothered by the fact that I enjoy taking part in online forums, though my mom has threatened to ban me several times simply because my constant visits to the BD (visits that were hours at a time) began to affect my schoolwork, especially during those months when my teachers gave ridiculous amounts of homework along with my dance team competitions (which is why, unfortunately, I was forced to give up RPGing completely).

So, in summary, the BD is a healthy experience for anyone of any age, as long as you don't become so involved, it affects your real life.

[Saraphim]

My mother holds fully to the "For all you know you could be talking to some 40-year-old pervert petifile!" thing. I did tell her that this is a very family-friendly site, and that any problems of the creepy-git variety are quickly dealt with, but she gave me a patented maternal look and just said "You just be careful" in this tone she's got.

Oh, how familiar that sounds:rolleyes: . My mother is convinced that anyone who speaks to me over the internet is a criminal. Mostly I just growl and point out how strict the BW is.

Honestly, this site has improved me exponentially, and not just in with my vocabulary and writing skills. It's actually gotten me to be more social in real-world situations, something I don't take to easily.

[Lhunardawen]

I have forgotten to include development of social skills in my hurry at my last post in his thread. I have never really used the Internet much before the Downs, but now I am glad to be able to communicate with people from all over the world with whom I share the same passion for Tolkien's works. I have also been able to discuss non-Tolkien things with a Downer. It is really interesting for me to discover others' opinions on things, and that has led me to learn to respect the views of others, especially if they are different from my own.

But alas, it does seem in my case that the reason behind disagreements between me and my mother is her lack of knowledge on LotR. She hasn't really watched the movies nor read the books, but watching the movie trailers she automatically deduced that the story involves a lot of violence. She fails to see what interests us so much, so she thinks that LotR is rather not worth the time and energy and whatever we "waste" on it. My brother and I try to convince her to see LotR for what it really is, and I do hope she will find time to.

[Mithalwen]

Have you ever tried explaining the internet to vintage parents? It was bad enough expalining the video recorder.... I really tried with my mamma but I don't think she ever really grasped it and in the end I rationed her to one technological question a day ...."How does an internet work? " "Don't know - but don't really know how the telephone works either "... .... she was possibly the only person in the world who dictated their email... but my pa did go on a course of Computing for geriatrics last year ..... didn't do a lot of good really...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

she was possibly the only person in the world who dictated their email...
No, Mith, my mamma does the same. She's learning though (sort of). I love it when she's online (not often) and a popup ad shows up. She tends to freak out and yell for help, thinking she accidentally broke the computer. :rolleyes:

And one of the two times I've been grounded over the past 2 years involved the internet. I guess my parents don't like my 'addiction' because they don't really understand the internet, or the LotR. Mixing the two? That must terrify them. :)

Fea

[Morsul the Dark]

My mom doesnt care...as long as Im not doing drugs or being a bad kid(which is virtually impossible my conscience is too overpowering) Anyway, she likes it when i tell her about discussions on the downs (or at least pretends to) and then sometimes she tells me what she thinks if it is a good point i post it... I might go search and see what ideas are hers theres only one or two but I know theyre there somewhere....

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Very interesting Morsul, my parents feel the same. My older brother is one of those annoying typical teenagers who lives in pubs and drinks himself to death at any chance possible. Where as I spend most of my time browsing these forums, reading books and generally being Geeky. But I am proud of this fact, and am often challenged like so;

Some moron: Why, do you not go to Part-EES and get Dunk?
Me: I have better ways to spend my time.
Moron: Wouldn't you rather go out and have a life?
Me: No, not really.
Mron: Why?
Me: For many reasons, firstly, I hate real life, so escapism is a rally neat way to get away form it all without spending money on holidays or drink. Secondly, Alcohol tastes like something that has fist passed though the digestive system of a cat. Thirdly, so called 'pop' music and 'dance' music makes me want to vomit out my entire digestive system. Satisfied?
Moron: I like pointy things...
Me: ............ Ok.......

As you can imagine, I did not go to a very good high school.
But I got by and so came to the land of Aman.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I know the feeling, Hookbill. I was recently introduced to a guy who insists that he's met me before, although I know we've never met before the day that we well... met. He asked the one who introduced us whether I do a lot of partying, because he (the new guy) was insistant that he'd seen me before at a party somewhere, and that entire meeting resulted in a lasting "arguement" over how its "unbelievable" that I don't EVER go to parties. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do any other stupid stuff that goes on at parties like that, and I have minimal tolerance for stupid people. So tell me again why I would go to parties where stupid people get drunk, smoke up, and listen to *shudder* their own taste in music?

My "life" is generally as a "good kid", because even though I do stupid stuff, its not stupid illegal, stupid immoral, stupid gonna hurt someone stuff. It's more the firing-bottle-rockets-out-of-bedroom-windows stupid kinds of stuff (not that I've ever actually done that :p), which makes me wonder WHY my parents hate me spending so much time on my nerdy hobbies. I could either be here, on the 'Downs, persuing intellectual discussions and working on my writing and social skills... or I could stay out 'til the wee hours of the morning more often. I should tell my parents that... or not. I can just imagine how that would go over!

Fea

[Morsul the Dark]

my best friend is a smoker/drinker/partyer...Its odd we've been best friends for about 11 years and we're so different.

But he came home one night from a party at like 2am and his mom was yelling at him to be more like me(although if everyone were like me then nobody would know life existed outside the house I only leave to go to work or to go shopping.

so I can agree with Fea

because even though I do stupid stuff, its not stupid illegal, stupid immoral, stupid gonna hurt someone stuff. It's more the firing-bottle-rockets-out-of-bedroom-windows stupid kinds of stuff (not that I've ever actually done that )

and this is an every day conversation with my friend

Some moron: Why, do you not go to Part-EES and get Dunk?
Me: I have better ways to spend my time.
Moron: Wouldn't you rather go out and have a life?
Me: No, not really.
Mron: Why?
Me: For many reasons, firstly, I hate real life, so escapism is a rally neat way to get away form it all without spending money on holidays or drink. Secondly, Alcohol tastes like something that has fist passed though the digestive system of a cat. Thirdly, so called 'pop' music and 'dance' music makes me want to vomit out my entire digestive system. Satisfied?
Moron: I like pointy things...
Me: ............ Ok.......

Ill have to use that cat argument next time we argue about that :D

[Mithalwen]

Fea ... perhaps that guy met my friend lol......

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fea ... perhaps that guy met my friend lol......
To coin chat-speech... RotFLMAO. Tyler (the guy) certainly didn't meet me, since I've been to one party where there was drinking, and I left just before the drinking started, but just after ripping a guy to shreds when he said something offensive to me. He hasn't talked to me in a year. :D And I KNOW Tyler wasn't at that party.

his mom was yelling at him to be more like me
I've had that happen. Have you ever noticed that, regardless of what the situations are, you tend to get compared to people around you? I loved this conversation:

D: But everyone does it. You don't know how to have fun. You should be more like A.
Fea: Not everyone, and my fun is different than yours.
D: You don't, but that's about it.
Fea: You're forgetting E, K, K, S, J, K, A, J, and K. None of us do.
D: I don't know any of them.
Fea: I expect I could fill several books with what you don't know.
D: Huh?

My parents' latest comparison: You should be more like S... when's she's not at work, she's out with friends, not online. My response tends to be: I have a job, when I'm not at work, I'm out with friends, and I'm only online when I've got nothing better to do. *sigh* Parents...

Fea

[Saraphim]

my fun is different than yoursThat is what I've been trying to explain to people! But they don't seem to understand why I turn down a party to read Russian literature and discuss LotR on the internet with people I've never met.

My mum, nervous as she is about my proclivity for the internet, she would prefer this to the drugs/alchohol/insessant partying/ect that most of my peers take part in.

For my part, I just find that the Downs is so much more fun and fulfilling than a group of loud, inebriated individuals listening to bad music.

[Mithalwen]

My mother used to despair of my untidiness, asking why I couldn't be more like her sisters step daughters ..... years later I was able to ask whether she had wanted me to be more like the suicidally depressed one or the imprisoned junkie one..... :rolleyes:

Not that I would encourage anyone to start worshipping at the altar of Bacchus and certainly not to excess .... but I do wonder what on earth Hookbill was drinking..........

[Lalwendë]

I'm sure others will agree with me - all the 'cool kids' (by cool, this means partying, drinking, etc) you knew at school are now the ones who seem to be messed up! While all the slightly strange kids, the geeks and the bookworms, they have all done well.

Parents though, they'll still be worrying about you when you're in your thirties, mark my words! And they still maither* you. Mine still ask me where my coat is if I turn up without one, and clean my house when they visit...

Anyway, I think Hookbill had been drinking Pernod. Ugh. *Shudder*

*Maither - means nag, basically.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Anyway, I think Hookbill had been drinking Pernod. Ugh. *Shudder*
What Mackes you skay that? (falls over)

[the phantom]

My mom is a BIG nagger. She worries about everything. It gets annoying sometimes, but I know she loves me. My dad doesn't really nag, but he's always big on giving warnings on things involving finance, work, and school. You know, kind of pointing out no-nos ahead of time.

I joined the Downs as a teen. I was almost 20, but still, I was a teen, still in school, and living at home- well within my mother and father's nagging jurisdiction, yet I did not receive a single warning or nag about the Downs (except those concerning the percentage of my day I spent on the site, which at times was substantial).

My parents figured that I wasn't stupid and that I could take care of myself. If I would've joined the site and immediately started handing out my full name, SSN, credit card #, and address then something bad might've happened but my parents knew I wouldn't do that (and if I did do it, they would tell me "tough luck, it's your own fault and you know it").

Unless you make bad decisions The Barrow-Downs is very safe. In fact, it's probably safer than going to a mall. You could get into a wreck on the way to the mall. You could get robbed, raped, or abducted in the parking lot. Also, I've been a cashier in the past and if someone came through my line with a store specific credit card I knew a couple ways to really mess their finances up if I wanted to (but don't worry, I doubt the other cashiers ever could think of the method let alone pull it off).

Plus, you'd think a site dedicated to quality literature would have an extremely low number of stalkers when compared to chat rooms, gaming forums, and other places on the web.

When it comes to the amount of time spent on the Downs, obviously work and school should not be kicked to the curb to make room, but if all tasks have been completed and it is time for recreation then why not spend a large amount of time on the Downs? It can be quite beneficial for reasons listed above in other posts. It's certainly better than lots of the things I see kids doing for fun.

Anyway, my parents were always happy to see me doing things in my free time that required thinking and reading. Nobody has anything against those two things, right?

(ironically, after saying school should come first- this post took longer than I thought so I'm late for class now) :p

[InklingElf]

I totally concur with your points H-I!

As I've observed from my stay here at the Downs my literary criticism here and at school has much improved. Of course my many thanks go to the elder members of this forum mainly because they have shown great confidence in the points they make in certain posts, backed up by plausible information etc. etc. Don't worry I won't make the sob-story out of this post :D

A week or two ago I reviewed my very first ramblings on the Downs...much like looking back on a journal so you can imagine how embarrased I am with reactions like "Did I write that!?" and so forth...but as it progressed I found my more recent postings more purposeful and found myself delving more into more serious posts...and leaving doggy ears in me dictionary (heh).

I am sorry for the kids that were banned from the Downs--no one can argue a parent's perrogative but I believe this rich community may contribute in many ways to education mainly in Tolkienology....er English Literature.

I remain a faithful member of the Downs. Though it is a slightly goofy at times its academia-like atmosphere remains a small but imperative part of my interests and schooling....I WILL bookmark that list H-I

[Mithalwen]

I don't mind the occasional pastis (memories of very hot evenings at french terrace bars) but it should be mixed with a lot of water and sipped slowly.... The teenage tendency to mix it with Blackcurrant cordial and slug it tends to lead to "talking to God on the great white telephone" (and ruins the palate)...
so a very bad idea ...

[Elennar Starfire]

Quote:
My mother holds fully to the "For all you know you could be talking to some 40-year-old pervert petifile!" thing. I did tell her that this is a very family-friendly site, and that any problems of the creepy-git variety are quickly dealt with, but she gave me a patented maternal look and just said "You just be careful" in this tone she's got.


Oh, how familiar that sounds . My mother is convinced that anyone who speaks to me over the internet is a criminal. Mostly I just growl and point out how strict the BW is.

My mum gets upset at me if I give out info like "I have a younger sister". :rolleyes: Seriously...who could stalk me with that? Not that I pay attention to her or anything...I'm not stupid.

[akhtene]

:rolleyes: I probably belong to that weird minority of parents who would like my child to spend more time at the computer, but she hardly would (too much into sport).
I would mostly wish her to practise her English, and maybe some other skills previously mentioned.

[Orominuialwen]

I am very fortunate in that my parents (especially my mother) approve of the Barrow-Downs. They realize that I'm not going to do anything stupid like give out my real name, my age, my phone number, or any location more specific than the city and state I live in (there are over 200,000 people in it, so it's not like I'd be easy to track down just going on that.) Due to my time here I've become a much better typist (I've gone from being absolutely terrible to only moderately bad :p) and a better writer (I now cringe to see some of my early posts). I've really become more outgoing from my time here, too. Normally I am very shy and hardly talk around people I don't know well, but not so here. I've also learned tons about different parts of the world and other cultures due to the fact that the BDer's come from all different places. The 'Downs is an education in itself!

[HerenIstarion]

Long live akhtene! Praise her with great praise!
Cuio i akhtene anann! Aglar’ni akhteniannath
Praise her with great praise, akhtene of the great mind!
Daur a Berhael, Conin en Annűn! Eglerio!
Praise her!
Eglerio!
A laita te, laita te! Andave laituvalmet!
Praise her!
Cormacolindor, a laita tárienna!
Praise her! The thoughtful heart, praise her with great praise!’

*Anyone versed in elvish is welcome to correct all of those 'eglerio'-s (which I have a feeling do not apply to singular and feminine at all) and other similar stuff and things...

And, of course, nice to see akhtene back

Partying re: nothing bad in having little fun, as long as one has fun. And truly, 'my fun is different from yours' Men may long remember your words, Ioreth (um, sorry, I mean, Fea)! For there is hope in them

And yet, and yet we down here, (yours truly at least) are for a good middle line, or, wossname, golden mean, divine proportion and all of them strange things wise [wo]men do. Or:

All of the parties involved should compromise, as far as I see things, but sometimes there is a need for a little push and shove. Democracy we live in, and all are equals, but, recalling particular farm of fame, some of us are more equal than others, and in the parent-child dichotomy parent is exclusevely more equal (by far, by very very far). Hence the need of the push mentioned, and what is a better push than simple letting the opposite side in? Conqeurors came and went, but Ankh-Morpork stood where it stands...

So, do not merely complain, be more constructive! What was that c[h]at thing about, eh? Yours truly enjoys his beer and a little wine sometimes, so hush about digestive systems and panleukopenia of feline family members, pray :D

Besides, wine drinking has a lot of tradition behind it. Letting alone quite obvious Christian connections, almost all of the pre-Cristian religions considered wine as sacred (Sun worship, usually). Not to forget Thranduil's good elves and especially the butler, Galion, who's preferences in the matter allowed Bilbo to free dwarves (dear mods, I'm a sneak, I can keep any topic Tolkien related :p).

Excessive application of anything is what's really harmful.

cheers

[mark12_30]

some of us are more equal than others, and in the parent-child dichotomy parent is exclusevely more equal

Hilarious. Bravo!

[Mithalwen]

Ah but they should be careful ... because there comes a time when they are aged and infirm and the roles are reversed :D

[Amanaduial the archer]

(- hey, mom (dad, uncle, yer honour, reverend Brown), I've found the candy which is tasty and wholesome!
- Can't be, there is no wholesome candies!
- But look, here, look at the list of its properties which are good for you
- What list? Lemme see, um, er, yes, but is it, really?
- And the list is approved of by Co7A, who is parent and teacher herself, and this H-I chap who made it is only 31.3% geek and works in a bank, and is a swimmer and has a Master's degree (I know I'm vain, but it for the sake of the Case ) And I've already done my homework, made 10 pull-ups on the bar out there and focused on Mr Grey's car, which is 200 yards away for the whole of ten minutes!
- Allright, since it is so wholesome, er, um, I suppose you may have it...)

Ah, but amusing though that arguement is, Heren, it actually doesn't strengthen the case for some parents. For example, about a year and a half ago, when I was in a particularly good mood at the Downs (just over a year and a half actually - January '03?), and so Mother went through the mandatory dangers-of-the-internet-there-are-all-sorts-of-people-out-there talk. I decided not to mention that yes, I know that, a helluva lot of them go to my school, and instead took the tack that those of them who I talk to in PM or email knew only what I disclosed, and that was very little; and that I knew bits and pieces about them. When The Suspicious Parent asked what sort of things, I then went on to say that most lived in America (true of the people I talked to at the time) and a few ages.

The Parent was shocked - I was talking to people 'somewhat older' than myself. She asked in horror how did I know they didn't fit into the category of dangers-of-the-internet-there-are-all-sorts-of-people-out-there, and in my defence I said no! I mean, for example, one of them is an international lawyer! (There, I just gave away the member's identity, didn't I? ;))

Oddly, I don't think this helped matters. You see, The Suspicious Parent is a strange species: disclose information meant to reassure her, and what she actually hears is that you have disclosed the same sort of information and more to All Sorts on the internet. :rolleyes: Hrm. And this does make things rather difficult. What's more, I don't like my parents to come on the forum - not for any sort of reason against you, dear readers, simply because I don't like them reading my writing - I get seriously embarassed. This doesn't exactly look good to The Suspicious Parent, I suppose...

Still, as yet, I have only been banned once, and that was from the internet in general. It was just after my parents got the internet bill *winces* But they have no quarrel with an alleged Tolkien forum which I use primarily for writing: I have always liked creative writing, and I think the Downs may, yes, have helped. The fundamental issue is, and always will be, trust.

[Mithalwen]

A lot of it is to do with the fact that most people are unable to evaluate risk accurately. I mean there is a perception that the big wide world is an especially dangerous place for women and children to venture into alone but in fact, the majority children who are murdered or abused are victims of their own parents, women are usually the victim of their husbands/boyfriend. The people most likely to be murdered by strangers are young men.

And if parents think that the Downs is really a problem ..they really have a strange worldview... I mean ... my brain has been more stretched here that it has anywhere since leaving uni...and perhaps in some respects more than at uni!. And to be exposed to what can be post-grad level discussion at schoolage ...surely can only be positive.... or maybe parents get suspicious because it seems impossible that teenagers could ENJOY learning....

That said..there are some very odd people out there .... on a rare visit to an (innocuous) chat room it took all of 3 seconds to encounter a sleazoid creep... :(

But, I sometimes get the feeling that there is a disproportionate fear because it was the internet - A couple of years ago, I was lucky enough to travel to Australia and NZ. Now, I had been talking to someone on a tennis site for 3 years and she lived near my family in Melbourne so we arranged to meet (in a bar, in the afternoon)..... and even though I am big enough, old enough and ugly enough to take care of my self - my Aussie family were completely paranoid ......"You mean you don't know her surname, or address.....blah blah blah".( Iand that was just meeting another girl of the same age).. but when I was solo travelling in NZ I would go for meals with other lone travellers who just happened to be travelling on the same bus / staying at the same hostel judging merely on appearance....
This didn't give the Aussie rellies the vapours at all......

Actually the priniciples for lone travelling (which was what I did to worry my parents before the internet was widespread lol ) could be apply just as well to the net ..... Be prepared, aware of the potential dangers, don't stray in to areas you know to be dangerous and prepare strategies to get out of dangerous situations you may fall into by chance. And then having minimised the risks enjoy the journey!!

[HerenIstarion]

Be prepared, aware of the potential dangers, don't stray in to areas you know to be dangerous and prepare strategies to get out of dangerous situations you may fall into by chance. And then having minimised the risks enjoy the journey!!

I have a feeling that applies to life in general, not Internet or journeying only :). Good piece of advice, it is, sounds almost Jerome K. Jerome rendered into plain speech, without allegory of boats and rivers, kudos!

The Suspicious Parent is a strange species

Our parleys are with that kind of species, for the most part, I believe, as Unsuspicious Parent does not ban child's activities. As before, my advise would be - let them read printable version of current thread. There is almost no issue wich can not be resolved with a good ole' discussion of it [*Unless the issue in question is the conversation of two males along the lines of - 'I'm strong enough to beat the s**t out of you' - that kind of debate is founded on northern tradition of heroic boasting and can not be resolved with the means of greek philosophy and debate] You can cut out your own post, as SP may get hurt a bit at the title, I expect. Or maybe not, as SP may grow more aware of the situation, and reflect why such a 'titulage' may have been earned or unearned :)

But I would be glad if people like Child or mark or akhtene made more of appearance on this here thread, as, though I'm no longer a child, I'm not a parent either, so my position may be biased a bit. Let us hear more from the other side, eh?

[Encaitare]

Fortunately, my parents are pretty cool. I work very hard in school (too much AP homework! :eek: ) so they let me do pretty much whatever I like to relax when I do have free time... and that time is, of course, spent online. Also fortunately, our internet fee is the fixed monthly rate = unlimited access! Yay! My dad is a pretty computer-savvy guy, so he doesn't mind me talking here. He just doesn't like me to go on the AOL chats, because that is where you get the creeps who want to "cyber," etc. I've never been not allowed to use the internet, lucky for me. I am quite wary of talking to strangers outside the Downs, through IMs and such, but I sometimes do if I have corresponded with the person before, or know they're wro they say they are.

The great thing about LotR and the Downs and all those wonderful creations is that it probably has served to keep me out of trouble. My parents did such a gret job of instilling a conscience in me that I feel awful if I lie to them and it comes out anyway. I've always been a geek/dork type too... when I was 6 I could tell you the name of almost every dinosaur that ever existed and whether it was from the Cretaceous or Jurassic or Triassic Period and all that. I told off a teacher once or twice for giving misinformation :p :cool: I'm not much of a party type... I really prefer to stay home and read or write.

So that's my fun story!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Try number two, after my initial loooong post got deleted by my early morning I'm-late-for-work rush...

My parents did such a great job of instilling a conscience in me that I feel awful if I lie to them and it comes out anyway. I've always been a geek/dork type too... when I was 6 I could tell you the name of almost every dinosaur that ever existed and whether it was from the Cretaceous or Jurassic or Triassic Period and all that. I told off a teacher once or twice for giving misinformation :p :cool: I'm not much of a party type... I really prefer to stay home and read or write
Kindred spirits, Encai? I am incapable of lying to my parents. Well, actually to rephrase, I can lie all I want, but they know when I'm doing it. Although I pride myself that if I'm supposed to keep my trap shut, they may know I'm lying, just have no clue what about. I've currently got the labels geek, nerd, dork, girly, sXe, and most recently, punk. I suppose that comes from my most recent erm... experiment, but I try to avoid labels. I do pride myself on nerd and sXe though... eh... my point is, when I was about 6, I was an avid reader and was also running around spouting out pointless information on dinosaurs, animals, and random other stuff. I've been known to correct teachers, and I can't understand why they get upset. I love when people correct me, because (A) it shows that they know their stuff, (B) it means I won't get it wrong again, and (C) it means they're paying attention.

My on topic point, however, is that, in my case, the internet issue is one of trust. My parents let me roam free on the internet because they trust that I won't do anything stupid. I like that trust, and so I won't break it.

Now if they were constantly suspicious and overbearing? I'd tell them less than if they just let me come to them. And if they checked the history or anything on me? That's entirely too much like invading my privacy, so I would, without question, leave them a few 'interesting' sites to run across just to blow their minds. Nothing I'd visit on my own, just sheer accidents of typos, or stuff that they'd certainly object to. It's like the kid who starts smoking weed because people already think he does. "Well if they're already thinking this, I may as well give them good reason to." That sort of thought process, only rather than actually visiting the sites, I'd just plant the weblinks here and there. (There should be an evil smily inserted right about here.)

Fea

[Encaitare]

Now if they were constantly suspicious and overbearing? I'd tell them less than if they just let me come to them. And if they checked the history or anything on me? That's entirely too much like invading my privacy, so I would, without question, leave them a few 'interesting' sites to run across just to blow their minds.

I agree, I think it's the fact that they trust me which makes me more responsible and less sneaky. Yes, I am considered to be "sXe" but I don't mind... a few friends have observed (on 4/20, quite fittingly) that they can't imagine me high or anything, probably because I'm messed up enough as is... :rolleyes: I've also been told by someone that she thought I was a major prude; fortunately she said she was wrong!

And about being corrected, I feel the same way. If someone bothers to correct you, it shows at least they care enough to point it out. Plus, then you won't make the same mistake again... someone probably will point it out at some time, and possibly not so nicely either. I guess teachers don't like being told they're wrong by students who they think are so dumb and irresponsible...

[Mithalwen]

I guess teachers don't like being told they're wrong by students who they think are so dumb and irresponsible...


As a former teacher ... it is usually more that you are having enough trouble trying to control a class who have already assessed you and found you wanting in all departments without being to made to look like an idiot onthe one thing you generally are in control of ie subject knowledge.... believe me I was a "good" student and after I started teaching I just wanted to grovel for every time I was a "smart alec" ..... teachers are contrary to popular belief human..... and have human feelings and failings .......... oh and if you ever spot one in a supermarket don't feel obliged to scream "that's my French teacher" with the modulation you might give to screaming "that's an alien from the planet Zog" .... ;) . Funnily enough most people who go into teaching do so with good intentions... not because they hate adolescents ...that is a consequence of teaching not a cause.... :D

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Yes, I am considered to be "sXe" but I don't mind... a few friends have observed (on 4/20, quite fittingly) that they can't imagine me high or anything, probably because I'm messed up enough as is...
Try being born at 4:20 PM. I NEVER should have let that one slip. One of my science classes in sophomore year (I took two courses that year because I like science and had too much free time on my hands) tried their absolute hardest to get me to get drunk with them. It was a year-long fiasco cumulating in me flipping out at them all, saying that they'd have to kill me, drag my corpse to the party, and funnel alcohol down my dead throat before it would happen.

it is usually more that you are having enough trouble trying to control a class who have already assessed you and found you wanting in all departments without being to made to look like an idiot onthe one thing you generally are in control of ie subject knowledge....

Oh my... it never occured to me, although you may not believe it. I actually feel really bad now... Like I said, I like to be proven wrong, because it means that I'm now correct, and that at least one person is paying attention. As for my asking tough questions... it's not to make the teacher look like a fool, its usually far more innocent than that. I just want to know, and since teachers (humans though they are, I suppose) are, in my occasionally humble opinion, the most brilliant people alive (why else would they be spreading the knowlege?), I usually assume that they'll know the answers, if anyone will.

oh and if you ever spot one in a supermarket don't feel obliged to scream "that's my French teacher" with the modulation you might give to screaming "that's an alien from the planet Zog" .... ;) .
What if your French teacher just happens to be an alien from the planet Zog? Is it okay to scream the truth in that instance? All kidding aside, the only time I ever mention if someone is my teacher is if I like the person (as a person, or as a teacher, although I am aware that teachers are real people!). If I don't like the teacher and equate him with a Zoggian alien? That's when I turn and subtly melt into the crowd before said Zoggian sees me and I'm forced to politely converse with someone I don't like but have to deal with on a regular basis. :o I'd rather test out my casual disappearing skills at that point.

Funnily enough most people who go into teaching do so with good intentions... not because they hate adolescents ...that is a consequence of teaching not a cause.... :D
I'm going into teaching, and already have a little experience, for all that I'm only 17. I like it, but I'd have to say ages 12 and under are a LOT more exhausting than adolescents.

You know, if any of your parents try to ban you from here, just use this line: "Yeah, Mom/Dad, but just look at all the stuff Fea and Encai just learned about the appropriate time to correct a teacher! Where else are they gonna learn that?"

Fea

[Encaitare]

Try being born at 4:20 PM. I NEVER should have let that one slip.

Oh, Fea, I can only imagine. :eek: :D

Funnily enough most people who go into teaching do so with good intentions... not because they hate adolescents ...that is a consequence of teaching not a cause....

Actually, Mith, I want to be a teacher! Music education all the way. And don't mistake me; some of my teachers are the coolest, nicest, and funniest people I know. I do see your point, though.

[The Saucepan Man]

Interesting thread, this.

I sometimes wonder how my parents would have felt about me being on the internet, had it been around when I was a kid. I suspect that my mother would have been extremely suspicious of it, given that she was a confirmed technophobe (she never even got the hang of programming the video recorder). In contrast, many parents these days, and certainly in the not too distant future, will have used the internet frequently themselves and therefore be able to take a sensible approach towards their children's use of it. As others have said, it is little different from real life - one simply needs to exercise a little common sense regarding the disclosure of personal details etc and it's totally safe. Indeed, it's clearly a lot safer way of meeting total strangers than in real life, given that those that you are speaking to are not physically present.

My own children are still too young to start surfing the web or joining forums. When they are a little older, though, I would personally have no reservations about them frequenting sites such as this. In fact, I hope that I will be able to trust them to use the internet with limited (parental) restrictions, although that will depend on me being able to trust them to use it safely and sensibly. Which in turn depends upon my wife and I properly educating them in this regard, plus their own inclination to behave responsibily. Well, we shall see ...

I agree with those who have pointed out that one should make sure of discharging real life obligations (homework, work, chores etc) before rewarding oneself with a Downs session. Although I will have to clean up my own act before preaching to my children on this, since there are times when I have spent far too much time here. Having said that, the demands of family, work etc clearly always come first for me (as my absence for most of the previous month testifies).

As for the comments made concerning parties, alcohol etc, I do feel some slight alarm at some of the more extreme positions that have been taken here. However enjoyable (and, in some respects, educational) the Downs might be, it can, to my mind, never match up to real life interaction. I hope that people aren't letting the extreme behaviour of those they see indulging in wild parties, drugs etc letting themselves be put off enjoying a healthy social life. You really don't have to go wild to have a good time, you know. As HerenIstarion says, most things are good in moderation (there goes Saucepan not practicing what he preaches again, as he works his way through a fine bottle of wine ;) :D ).

One final (off-topic) thought. I find it amazing how much us Downers seem to share interests in common (in addition to Tolkien of course). Like Enca and Feanor, I was a complete dinosaur nerd in my younger years. By the age of 8, I had made up my mind to be a Paeleontologist, which was a never-ending source of confusion for those who asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. :D (Alas that I did not follow my childhood inclination.) And it's not just dinosaurs either. The Beatles' music and Monty Python both seem to present a common a link between many Downers too. Perhaps there is some explanation for a link between these things and Tolkien's works ...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I hope that people aren't letting the extreme behaviour of those they see indulging in wild parties, drugs etc letting themselves be put off enjoying a healthy social life.
No way! I wouldn't let those people affect what I want to do. I go out with friends, I spend time with family, I have a great job and help teach at school (ie: one on one work with students and whatnot). I even do a little extreme behavior of my own... but nothing that's going to hurt anyone, unless of course my grandmother has a coronary when she sees my hair tomorrow... (I put orange streaks in last night, and they AREN'T temporary). I hope she doesn't, of course... not too likely.

Like Enca and Feanor, I was a complete dinosaur nerd in my younger years. By the age of 8, I had made up my mind to be a Paeleontologist, which was a never-ending source of confusion for those who asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. :D
Doesn't this sound familiar.... you see, it was mostly my brothers and Jurassic Park that got me into dinosaurs. It trailed off for a few years, but when I got into Geology and read a book on rocks front to back and discovered that the Spinosaurus egypticus was discovered by an amateur... let's just say that my dino-interest got renewed.

And it's not just dinosaurs either. The Beatles' music and Monty Python both seem to present a common a link between many Downers too. Perhaps there is some explanation for a link between these things and Tolkien's works ...
Why not start a thread on it, Saucie? You've listed Beatles' music (not my taste, for the most part, but still good), Monty Python (much to my taste), dinosaurs... what about shared activities, like Eomer-of-the-Rohirrim-stalking (his ego is fun to cuddle ;) )? It seems like we share not only interests, but ways of persuing them. I'd be interested to see what other connexions we've all got.

Fea

[Encaitare]

I hope that people aren't letting the extreme behaviour of those they see indulging in wild parties, drugs etc letting themselves be put off enjoying a healthy social life.

Nah, I have a healthy social life. Most of my friends are complete dorks like me, so we're all dorky together. I just don't mind spending a lot of my time alone; I'm absolutely insane when I'm with my friends but I can't really open up around those I don't know too well. And as Fea said, I am not unknown to do crazy things.

By the age of 8, I had made up my mind to be a Paeleontologist

As did I! Other notions I had was that I was going to be a writer, an artist, and a "world explorer" like they used to do back when there was a "New World" to be found. I was not quite aware when I was 6 or so that just about everywhere had been discovered already. ;)

Monty Python is truly a wonderful thing. And as for the Beatles... well, they did want to do a LotR movie, right? I must say I'm glad they didn't.. :eek: :D

[HerenIstarion]

er, my excuses, any buddy wanted to be a truck driver or sailor? Just would be nice ter know, yer honours, would be. Just I really wanted to be one or either, or both together...

Let us leave trucks and go back to the track, though. Just watched some movie starring Keanu Reaves - Johny Mnemonic was the name, I believe

What the point of this post is, or would have been if I haven't had so much work on my hands right now to make it more like a post than short remark - the places like this (i.e. BD) will help us avoid turning human society into internet horror they've pictured in the movie.

PS. Mithalwen, I know what you talk about, :). My experience may have been even worse, as I was only slightly older than my students for one, and, worst of all, we all lived in the same neighbourhood, which in Georgia is like what you get in the South of Italy or on Sicily - everybody knows everybody and is 'in league' against any kind of authority. Hence, my authority as a teacher equalled zero, though I have had some influence as a pal. But for my spectacles, I may have had more success, but stern behavioral pattern is not applicable when carried out by bespectacled youngster who dislikes shouting and have been seen about carrying a violin!. Horror, horror, playing violon is not a thing we real men do! Alas for my pedagogical career. :rolleyes:

cheers

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

any buddy wanted to be a truck driver or sailor?
Guilty. Sailor indeed... I read the Dragonsong trilogy when it first came out and *poof!* wanted to live in a giant cave village full of fishermen, impressionable youth that I am. ;) Mind you, those books also made me want to Impress a Dragon...

Hence, my authority as a teacher equalled zero, though I have had some influence as a pal.
I was supposed to go job shadowing for a class in school this year. I chose to shadow an art teacher (as that IS what I'd like to be), but when my teacher started arranging stuff... let's just say I wasn't particularly comfortable with some of the possibilities. One: a local highschool where over half of my extended family attends. Also attending that particular school are some kids that I just DO. NOT. LIKE. They are arrogant little.... Fea trails off into unintelligible muttering about kids who are a gang in everything but the name and can't even FIGHT fairly. Two: a local college (!) that not only does my eldest brother attend, but I know almost all of his friends there, and would be certain to have at least one of them in any classes I was in. It is my experience that kids do NOT like authority figures that are the same age, or god forbid, younger, than them. So Heren, you had kids you know that were younger than you... I would have had kids I know that were older than me, and/or related to me and/or don't much like me and would be willing to reek all sorts of havoc anywhere that I was supposed to being showing my responisible, professional self. ;) I got my teacher to let me go to a middle school where I didn't know anyone but a cop.

My this thread has gotten off topic... unless we can convince parents to let us stay on The 'Downs soley because of educational/career discussions... ;)

Fea

[the phantom]

My experience may have been even worse, as I was only slightly older than my students
It is my experience that kids do NOT like authority figures that are the same age, or god forbid, younger, than them
I've been doing tutoring as a job or as volunteer work for six years now and I have discovered that (around these parts anyway) the age of the kid matters more than my age.

For these past six years it's been the same- kids 7 and under do what I tell them, kids 8-10 need to be told more than once, kids 11-13 are nearly impossible to deal with, kids 14-15 are similar to 8-10 years olds, and kids 16 and older do what I tell them (just like kids 7 and under).

I know it seems weird but that's how it has always been for me. 11-13 year olds are always the worst but once they get old enough they don't mind if you're close to their age as long as you aren't a jerk or something. My friends that are around my age do what I tell them much quicker than the junior high students I tutor.

[Encaitare]

I can see how that would be. Around 11-13 I think nearly everyone feels they have something to prove, and it suddenly becomes cool to rebel. Then when people develop personalities they're comfortable with, they become more managable. It also depends on the group -- some kids are just disobedient, and others will listen to the teacher in a second. This is true in my school all the time, sometimes I genuinely pity the teachers. Interest in the topic is a definite factor too.

I'd like to be a teacher giving private music lessons if I can, so then at least I'd know my students would be interested.

[HerenIstarion]

Well, I made a mistake, giving you all a bad example to follow my lead and thus stray from the main route of this thread Confiteor!

But things can be undone

There is another way, I believe, which just dawned on me (pun, pun) whilst reading about pedagogical expericences and observations mentioned. As far as I know, Tolkien is studied in English and US schools at some grade as part the English classes. What if The BD is offered as kind of 'additional reading' stuff to be done by the class?

cheers

[Bêthberry]

Tolkien is studied in English and US schools at some grade as part the English classes. What if The BD is offered as kind of 'additional reading' stuff to be done by the class?


Not simply reading, please, my cheery HerenIstarion. Please point out to anxious parents that we have extensively developed and supervised role playing forums which maintain the strictest standards of canonicity (oh dear, that word again) and integrity in writing. Their children can develop both their imagination and their writing skills. And we expect proper English (or improper American) spelling. We are more fun than a spelling bee!

Parents might be particularly happy that we don't allow slash and are a PG 13 site. (Well, assuming that parents would object to slash,...)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

... not to mention the fact that we hold good manners in high esteem, something that should be much appreciated by parents! No flaming or rudeness allowed here. (Yes, we have our Rules, set up by the Chief, but his name's not Lotho! ;) )

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

What if The BD is offered as kind of 'additional reading' stuff to be done by the class?
Brilliant suggestion. I tried to get the 'Downs involved in my Tril class last year (LotR Trilogy class...), but my teacher wouldn't take me seriously.

No flaming or rudeness allowed here.
Too true. Parents should appreciate the fact that in my *quick thinking* year and a half on this site, I've come across perhaps two things that offended me, and both were dealt with very quickly by our Higher Ups. How many other web-based forums can boast the same? Most others fly off-topic in the second post of a thread, never to return again. So besides learning all of the things previously listed, we 'Downers learn to stick to the task presented. And I might add, isn't that one of the things parents like kids in school to know how to do?

Fea

PS: sorry about my involvement in the off-topicness of this thread. I shall delete my posts if it be so desired.

[Encaitare]

I wish the Downs were considered supplementary for schoolwork, because that is a truly awesome idea. Unfortunately we're don't study Tolkien in school so there would be no such circumstance. It would be cool if there were boards like this for other books.

Parents might be particularly happy that we don't allow slash and are a PG 13 site. (Well, assuming that parents would object to slash,...)

I explained slash to my mom, and she just sort of nodded and was all, "Oh, that's... nice." My poor mother; she's so patient with me and my insane friends.

[The Saucepan Man]

I go out with friends, I spend time with family, I have a great job and help teach at school ...

Nah, I have a healthy social life.

I did not mean to suggest that you didn't, and I had no one in particular in mind. I was just slightly concerned by some of the comments suggesting that people would far rather spend all day on the internet than go out socialising in the real world. As I see it, places like the Downs should be regarded as a supplement to, rather than a replacement for, real life interaction. That's certainly how I intend to approach it with my children when they become old enough to be interested in these kind of things.

Of course, I can talk. But then I'm a father of two young children, so I'm not supposed to have any kind of a social life. :rolleyes:

As for teaching, I was completely put off it as a career choice when I saw how we treated our teachers at school aged 14 to 15. :eek:

I was actually introduced to The Hobbit at school, and I think that it makes ideal reading for 8 to 10 year olds as it provides great scope to exercise the imagination. I don't think that LotR was quite considered serious or "academic" enough at my school for serious study by older English students, although I would certainly consider it sufficiently so. As has been suggested, some of the discussions that go on here on the Downs can testify to that! And those of us who were into fantasy literature, Dungeons and Dragons, wargaming and the like did have a rather "dorky" reputation with the "cool brigade", so I doubt that LotR would have gone down too well with them. Then again, we did do some really good books for English literature at O-level and A-level (as the exams were called when I was at school, back when the world was young). 1984, Wuthering Heights and A Farewell to Arms were three books that I studied that I particularly enjoyed. And it seems to me that LotR offers as much, if not more, scope for serious study as these books. As for length, well I had to read Great Expectations for O-level, although I read the abridged version having left it to the final few days of the holiday. Then again, I would plead a natural allergy to Dickens (although I still got an A grade for my essay :D ).

[Mithalwen]

I too have a natural allergy to Dickens but I forced myself to read 50 pages of "Our Mutual Friend" each morning when I woke, and another fifty before I slept in order to complete it for the start of Upper Sixth. I called it my penance and never read another Dickens until I had to do Bleak House for my degree. the best I can say of him is that having slogged through the first 700 pages, the last 200 were relatively diverting. Irritatingly I seem not to be able to escape him. I was given the complete works which are (apart fromBH) unread and take up an obscene amount of precious shelf space. I lived around the corner form his birthplace for a while and later across the bay from Bleak House. I left town at festival time.

Since we are getting bizarrely competitive about teaching careers :p I will take the gloves off.

At my interview I was told that the person I was replacing had gone off sick. On my first day, I found out she had had her face smashed in by a 12 year old pupil.
I should have walked then and there but I stuck it out. I was sworn at, assaulted and sexually harrassed. My property was stolen. My desk and door handle were covered with spit and other bodily substances. My office door was kicked in. Someone tried to set fire to my hair. This is in addition to the usual living hell of the class room and still trying to do your best for extremely damaged children. Oh yes, I was also stitched up by the management as a scapegoat for the school inspectors.

So unless you started crying at 4 o'clock on Sunday afternoon because there was school again the next day, seriously considered slashing your wrists as a preferable alternative and are still not entirely free of the repercussions seven years later, then no your experiences were probably not worse :(

BTW Apart from having limited time ot cover such a long book, cost might also be a factor in not teaching LOTR. Full price each volume is six or seven pounds and at least double that for the one volume version. That will make a big dent in a dsepartmental budget when you can get older "classics" for a fraction of that .

[tar-ancalime]

As for length, well I had to read Great Expectations for O-level, although I read the abridged version having left it to the final few days of the holiday.

Yeah, I was supposed to read that too, in the ninth grade. As I recall, I "abridged" it for myself: I read the first 50 pages and the last 50 pages. :rolleyes:

Which brings me back to the thread topic: if it's so easy to avoid reading for school (and yes, still make good grades), isn't it encouraging for parents to know that their teenagers are reading and discussing literature in their free time?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Oooh... Poor Mith! You win! Where in the world could you possibly be teaching where it could be that horrible? It sounds to me like (apart from a lot of other things) they need a bit of Tolkien in their lives!

Fea

[Encaitare]

Wow, Mith, that's terrible. My sincerest sympathies! Were you working at a "regular" school or one for "troubled" individuals?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Well then, Mith, I think you have yourself a dire problem there!
It is events of that sort that lead me to make a T-Shirt that said "Death to the none discriminated against", Being one of the few Tolkien fans in my school, I am discriminated against, so I like to make them think about how they would feel about it... However, mostly it results in my loss of limbs.
:(

[The Barrow-Wight]

I belive we've gotten completely off-track. Let's get it 100% back onto the topic or I'll need to close this thread.

[Mithalwen]

Encaitare: In the light of the above warning I deleted my answer - if you didn't read it and are interested PM me.

One "problem" with Tolkien, which might concern parents who don't generally disapprove, and actually concerns me about my own reading / online habits is just how absorbing it is.

I have a stack of books that interested me enough to buy them, lurking unread and I do have other interests but Tolkien seems to absorb the vast majority of my reading and my online time. I remember that after I first finished LOTR and the Sil, I found "single" volume novels unsatisfying. The only thing I really remember giving me anything like as much pleasure was "the Forsyte Chronicles" All nine novels and a collection of short stories. I don't think it waas merely an escapist response to adolescence since I had read and reread the Narnia books at primary school (though the affection for them hasn't lingered to anything like the same extent.

I can imagine that while parents want their children to read - reading nothing but one series of books could be a worrry. But there are far worse things (I tell myself firmly as I put down that Booker listed tome infavour of UT ...)

[Encaitare]

Mith-- I did read it, but didn't respond because of the warning. I'm sorry you had to go through all that.

But back on topic! I too have found myself being much more choosy in what I read, looking for books with more depth than the standard novel has. I'm currently reading "Dune" and that's living up to my expectations pretty well. It's especially affected my writing, since I would love to write fantasy but fear that I can't live up to my own high expectations.

LotR is absorbing, to say the very least. It's a huge part of my life, and my parents do get somewhat irritated at me for making constant references to it. (My dad thinks the name "Frodo" is the funniest thing ever, which I don't get, but to each his own.) But while complete obsession could be worrying, I would think that parents would consider their child's desire to delve deeper into a work to be a good thing. (Just my view. Since I'm not a parent, I could be completely wrong.) It shows a great interest in literature, and if the child makes it into HoME or similar books, an interest in the writing process. This would also depend on the parents' desires for their child: some parents don't want their children to go into the arts because it often doesn't make much money. Therefore the deep interest in fantasy literature could be seen as a waste of time.

I suppose it depends on the parent, though.

[Saurreg]

I am a good example of someone who has benefitted through my stay here at the BD forums.

English is not my mother tongue and from where I come from, there is an alarming drop in the standard of spoken and written English due to a blizzare fusion of eastern and western pop cultures, and an ever pertaining educational syllabus that do this wonderful language little justice by snuffling creative thinking and expression. Despite recent adjustments in the curicculum, the problem will continue to expand and worsen.

I may be able to write a good technical report or give a passable oral presentation based on academic researches, but my ability to conversate and write normal everyday English is very limited. Therefore I take every visit to the BD as a extra-curricular learning opportunity to brush up on my writing skills and also to familiarise myself with the speaking standards of English speakers world-wide.

And I'm not ashamed to say that much of what I've learned, I learned from forum users very much younger than myself, but far more profficent in the language. :D

[Mithalwen]

You are in Singapore? Amongst my LOTR film memorabilia is a Singaporean film magazine sent by a friend from another board. It is amazing how it appeals to so many people across the world. Anyway as we have said before - one of the nice things about the downs is that age is irrelevant as well as nationality. As an older, native speaker, I am frequently astounded by the level of English of many younger non-native speakers.... especially when it turns out that English isn't their speciality.

Many of my French friends learnt their English from pop music - but, it may be my age (that at which new pop music has largely turned into an indistinct burble, and I have, clearly, turned into my father....) but I would think that this forum would certainly expose you to better English ....