PJ's Most Disagreable Mistakes (reasons why he is no longer aloud doing The Hobbit) [Archive]

Boromir88

09-13-2004, 04:33 AM

StarJewel and Encaitare:
Encaitare is right...non-book fans probably would not have enjoyed a longer movie than 3.5 hours.

Unless if that "inclusion" of the Scouring had Legolas in it some way (which it doesn't) then yes, I don't see non-book readers liking an extra 30 minutes-hr.

My most disagreeable thing with PJ is more of an exclusion, rather then a mistake he made. Eomer, now come on PJ give Eomer some love. I mean Rohan Soldier #35 get's more screen time then Eomer. It's like PJ just told Mr. Urban to stand behind a pole while filming. I don't know about you but Eomer seemed to me like an important part to LOTR, and an important part to Aragorn becoming king (as is being discussed in another thread, which I can't remember right now).

I'm dissappointed the PJ had to have elves at helm's deep and the dead army at Minas Tirith. The whole point of LOTR was the rise of men, the strength of men growing and other races fading away, didn't seem like that in the movies. PJ made it seem without elves, the men at helm's deep would have lost, and without the dead army the men of Minas Tirith would have lost.

Lastly, I want to see the EE so badly, because it has all sorts of added book scenes that I hope to enjoy. But, yes, if Saruman shoots fireballs out of his staff I will close my eyes.

Evisse:
Hmm, I'm still pondering on that, but anyway, in light of this, I've come to appreciate LOTR, even with all its changes and mistakes even more. It's sure giving us something to talk about, if nothing else.

Evisse, yes I agree, despite all my grumbles of what PJ could have done differently, I don't picture a director doing as good of a job as he did. Not even Tolkien (since I'm not too sure about Tolkien's directing skills). I would have to say actually my favorite "recent" movie maybe of the past 30 yrs is LOTR.

Meela

09-13-2004, 05:11 AM

I do happen to enjoy reading the books, but I haven't always liked them. But I would gladly sit through an extra five hours of the movies if necessary.

PJ made it seem without elves, the men at helm's deep would have lost, and without the dead army the men of Minas Tirith would have lost.

I can see the Elves point, but I never thought that about the battle at Minas Tirith. It was only towards the end that the Dead Army arrived, and all they did was pick off the stragglers. It was actually the Rohirrim who seemed to save the day, aka. fellow men.

I would have liked to have seen the Scouring of the Shire, but personally I'm not a big fan of the Hobbits. I'd rather the Houses of Healing were included or extra battle time given. I preferred to get straight to the action, and I felt the time with the Hobbits dragged a little, although I could see it was essential to the story.
But then the same can be said about the Houses of Healing, causing the ending to drag. So I'm disappointed, but not upset that it was excluded in the theater.

As much as I wanted to see Tom Bombadil out of pure interest, I'm glad the chapters were cut out completely. It's irrelevant to the central story, and it would result in a whole movie consisting of the Hobbits' journey, which I'm sure even some book fans would find a little tiresome towards the end.

Sapphire_Flame

09-13-2004, 09:47 AM

Unless if that "inclusion" of the Scouring had Legolas in it some way (which it doesn't) then yes, I don't see non-book readers liking an extra 30 minutes-hr.

:D Couldn't have said it better myself, Boromir88.

Although I was disappointed at some of the exclusions (the 'Downs, Scouring) and insertions (Osgiliath, more Arwen) that PJ implemented, I was pleased with the movies overall, and would be in no way averse to him directing The Hobbit. I realize that some things may be cut (possibly Beorn...), and some things may be added (seeing Legolas in Mirkwood... o.O), but that he will do a very good job nonetheless. My one insistance is that they do a good job with Smaug (my favourite character ^ ^).

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

Tuor of Gondolin

09-13-2004, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Meela

"I can see the Elves point, but I never thought that about the battle at Minas Tirith. It was only towards the end that the Dead Army arrived, and all they did was pick off the stragglers. It was actually the Rohirrim who seemed to save the day, aka. fellow men."
---------------------------------------
I tend to disagree. The way I saw it in the movie the Army of the Dead
blew away the bad guys. The only importance of the Rohirrim seemed to be
to buy a little time until the AotD arrived. You can argue that it was PJ and the
girls way of keeping partially true to the book: Gondor threatened, Rohirrim
charges but gets stalled, Aragorn with South Gondor levies turning the tide.
But consider movie Gimli's comment about keeping the AotD around. I think
PJ just wanted some more special effects with the green slime, but it did
cheapen the point of the Rohirrim charging. Also, why in the world didn't he
have the Rohirrim charge in the dark, then have the sun come out around
Theoden, as in the book?
His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.
(That would have been a great visual moment).

But worst bits in the movies:
FOTR--- I can see why XenaArwen took over for Glorfindel, but it was dumb to
replace Frodo saying:By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair you shall have neither the ring nor me!
with Arwen's "If you want......."
TTT---Ents saying no to attacking Saruman and then Merry/Pippin's weak
ploy to get him to isengard.
ROTK---BUt the # 1 stuuuuuupid move by PJ:
Gandalf beating up the Steward of Gondor as the Steward's elite guard
are picking their teeth! :rolleyes: Not only unbelievable, but absurdly not
only out of character for Gandalf but expressly against directives to the
Istari on how to behave towards the people of Middle-earth:
...this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Elder by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.
UT

Boromir88

09-13-2004, 12:44 PM

Tuor I completely forgot about the Gandalf beating up Denethor moments. Oh jeez, I have to agree that was more dissapointing then basically sticking Eomer behind a pole in the movies. Not only did Gandalf break rules by knocking around the Steward, but also, when Gandalf busted in with Shadowfax on Denethor burning himself, horses weren't allowed there.

So, let me get this straight, Beregond faces trial for following his heart and committing treason, but Gandalf gets away with trespassing and assault? Good job Tuor on pointing that out, that is by far the worst of all of PJ's mistakes.

NightKnight

09-13-2004, 01:59 PM

I think the worst things in RotK were the removals of most of my favorite characters: Beregond, Bergil, Imrahil, Elladan and Elrohir.
I also think there is way too much Arwen (she's very sexy though ;)), and that Haldir is taking way too much place. And of course the geocraphical misses (Legolas: "The orcs are turning northeast to Isengard" and Gondor Soldier: "The orcs have taken the eastern shore" (in Osgiliath)). :D

Boromir88

09-13-2004, 02:06 PM

Another thing that I now think of is PJ just likes to leave people. I don't know if it's for some emotional climax. But ok, Merry and Pippin are in Fangorn Forest, 1,000's of miles from home and Treebeard just says, "ok go home little shirelings, find your way eventhough you are in some unfamiliar place in the middle of nowhere." Same with Frodo and Sam, "ya we are in the Middle of Mordor, go home Sam, also you'll have to do it with no food since you ate it all(another problem in the movie how the hell do these hobbits survive months with no food, for the fact that it took them weeks to climb the slope of mount doom, and they do it with in a matter of seconds) but you'll find your way home eventhough we couldn't find our way through Emyn Muil." Heck, atleast Tolkien addressed the problem of food, something a lot of writers I think forget.

Nightknight, just for the info, that "soldier" is the made up lieutenant of Faramir, Madril. Which I happen to like the made up Madril, much better then the made up Lurtz. I mean I just love how the big, hairy, demented, orc guy (yes I know that's supposed to be Gothmog, but I like big, hairy, demented, orc guy better) stabs him with a spear in ROTK. But, I agree I would much rather see Beregond, Imrahil, Elladan or Elrohir then some made up captain or immortal orc fellow. And I've actually speculated that PJ would be much better as Forlong then some Corsair Captain, but I guess he couldn't stand being called "Forlong the fat."

You'll have to excuse me, once I get to complaining about all the problems of the movie I can't stop, no matter how bad it might seem though I still love em.

The Only Real Estel

09-13-2004, 02:15 PM

I found the vicious ravaging suffered by Faramir to be highly off-putting. The sequence going to Osgiliath was particularly egregious

True, but the EE helped to salvage a lot of his character. Not that I'm excusing the 'real' movie Faramir, though.

Hang on a second, PJ isn't doing The Hobbit anymore??

Just a matter of opinion, don't worry. :D

Tuor I completely forgot about the Gandalf beating up Denethor moments. Oh jeez, I have to agree that was more dissapointing then basically sticking Eomer behind a pole in the movies. Not only did Gandalf break rules by knocking around the Steward, but also, when Gandalf busted in with Shadowfax on Denethor burning himself, horses weren't allowed there.

I didn't especially like Gandalf beating Denethor either, although PJ's considerably-less noble-&-more wimpy Denethor deserved the beating.
But Gandalf riding a horse in there against the rules doesn't bother me nearly as much. Since the rule never even came close to being touched upon, I don't mind PJ having Shadowfax in there. I did mind the way that Gandalf seemed to kill Denethor, knocking him back onto the fire. But the horse rule seemed like a rather small nuance to me.

PJ made it seem without elves, the men at helm's deep would have lost, and without the dead army the men of Minas Tirith would have lost

Well, according to PJ's version it would've been. A few hundred men (& presumably no outstanding archers among them, other than Aragorn & Legolas) wouldn't lhave asted nearly long enough for Eomer/Gandalf to come to the rescue of anything but rubble & smoke.

On the Dead Army: It did seem to me that they pretty much saved the day, regardless of the few Oliphaunts that the Rohirrim took down towards the arrival of the Army, they were still getting whipped pretty badly. But then the Dead Army swooped down & easily wiped out everything in its path...I wish PJ would've stuck with the dead only helping capture the ships, but I guess he thought he needed a way to wrap up the 1st battle ultra-fast.

Boromir88

09-13-2004, 02:40 PM

The Only Real Estel:
But the horse rule seemed like a rather small nuance to me.

Trust me, I wasn't bothered by it either, it was just served for my purposes of building up to the Beregond-Treason vs. Gandalf-trespassing and assault ramble.

Well, according to PJ's version it would've been. A few hundred men (& presumably no outstanding archers among them, other than Aragorn & Legolas)

Well, if PJ would have done some searching here is an argument for his "few hundred men at helm's deep argument." The book makes clear Theoden had 1,000 men (which includes the 750 Rohirrim under Eomer) and Gamling had 1,000 men, which makes up for the 2,000 or so elves at helm's deep.

And here is the text to support my argument.

The King of the Golden Hall
At the gate they found a great host of men, old and young, all ready in the saddle. More then 1,000 were mustered.

That was Theoden and Eomer's men. Now for Gamling, when they first meet him at helm's deep.

Helm's Deep
"Maybe we have a thousand fit to fight on foot," said Gamling.

Now we know that famous quote from Legolas in the movie, in his elvish talk "10,000 against 300!" So unless PJ is trying to rationalize 1,700 people died in the Warg Attack that never happened, I would think PJ's "few hundred argument" has been demolished. (Estel, I don't mean anything towards you, just some things PJ does to try to rationalize "changes" he made gets me mad. I can understand if he said, I'm trying to bring in a bigger fan base, or frankly said, I didn't like the way it was written, but this right here is what I don't like about him.)

The Only Real Estel

09-13-2004, 02:50 PM

Boromir88: Well, I'm aware that in the books there were 2000 soldiers. And I think that Peter Jackson was aware that there were 2000 soldiers. But, he decided that he wanted there to be more tension, more of a feeling of hopelessness, & more heavily-stacked odds. I've always said I thought he should've gone 10000-2000, but since he didn't, we have what we have.

Well, if PJ would have done some searching here is an argument for his "few hundred men at helm's deep argument." The book makes clear Theoden had 1,000 men (which includes the 750 Rohirrim under Eomer) and Gamling had 1,000 men, which makes up for the 2,000 or so elves at helm's deep

But you also have to remember that, unless I'm badly out of my memory, there was no warg attack in the books (& certainly not a sustained one!). It mentioned that they saw bands of orcs &/or wargs, but they would always scatter before they could come upon them. Therefore, PJ inserted both the warg attack, & th 10,000-200 ratio into the movies. Maybe he was taking into consideration that if the warg attack had happened in the books, it might've taken out nearly 1,500 men (though I doubt it would've taken down more than 800 or so, at best). Whatever the reason, in the movie, the men wouldn't have stood a chance without the elves (though they obviously did in the books).

Estel, I don't mean anything towards you

No, no, I understand perfectly! :) If I were to take you having a different opinion than mine as personal, I shouldn't be here!
Have a good day,
Estel

Kuruharan

09-13-2004, 06:00 PM

Another thing that annoyed me to the point of apoplexy was Aragorn's highly wobbly knowledge of geography.

Aragorn: Send for aid to Gondor!!! Yes, that's right, I said Gondor!!! Gondor that cannot possibly be here for a week, in spite of the fact that I just made a daring and heroic entrance to announce that the orcs will be here tonight and we are all doomed!!! Gondor that (to all appearances) does not have enough me to defend its own borders!!!

Help us Obi-Wan Denethor, you are our only hope!!!

Tuor of Gondolin

09-13-2004, 07:41 PM

A warg attack is part of Saruman's attack on Theodred in "The Battles
Of The Fords Of Isen", in Unfinished Tales. But even there, JRRT makes
a far more realistic use of wargs then PJ's imaginary attack. One of the
plusses of LOTR is Tolkien's detailed internal realism, which PJ frequently
misses (although the movies were better then I expected, especially
FOTR). One of the illogics is (where were the 10,000 Riders before the
muster of Rohan?). There are just a handful at Edoras, very few at Helm's Deep,
apparently none opposing orcs ravaging the Westfold, and only (2,000?)
with Eomer. Oh, and where were Eomer's boys going in the movie, where were
their provisions and families? Did they abandon them? Such internal
inconsistencies are some of the reasons JRRT took so long to write LOTR, to
try to work on them. Recall the effort he took even getting phases of the
moon and travel times consistent for all the scattered characters.

The Only Real Estel

09-13-2004, 08:41 PM

A warg attack is part of Saruman's attack on Theodred in "The Battles

Yes, I was saying that I didn't recall there was any warg attack on the King & co. on their way to Helm's Deep. Though I'm sure I could very easily be wrong :D.

Kuruharan: That part bothered me too. Aragorn acts like he forgot all of Master Elrond's geography lessons in Rivendell, I've always rolled my eyes at that part :rolleyes:.

Voralphion

09-13-2004, 08:51 PM

One thing that I was disappointed about was the change in the charge of the rohrimm. The speech Thoeden said in the book was much more stirring than the one in the movie and I think the blast he blew on his horn causing it the explode would have been impressive but was left out. Also the change in the demenor of the riders of rohan and Eomer after finding Eowyn, from singing to calling for death should have been included along with Eomer's joy at seeing the standard of Gondor break on the Corsairs ships and his meeting with Aragorn in the midst of battle.

Boromir88

09-14-2004, 12:53 PM

Kuruharan
Aragorn: Send for aid to Gondor!!! Yes, that's right, I said Gondor!!! Gondor that cannot possibly be here for a week, in spite of the fact that I just made a daring and heroic entrance to announce that the orcs will be here tonight and we are all doomed!!! Gondor that (to all appearances) does not have enough me to defend its own borders!!!

What's even more unbelievable ELVES! ELVES FROM LOTHLORIEN! FARTHER AWAY THEN GONDOR! Can make it to Helm's deep in a matter of hours, when it takes Aragorn and company days to cross the plains of Rohan and for all their speed Aragorn was nicknamed "wingfoot." I say them Elves must have bought Scottie's Transporter Beam. Oh and just in case I haven't pointed this out, in the movie, Isengard was what 100 yrds away from Fangorn? And, I love how Frodo is able to race up Mount Doom in a matter of seconds. To continue, how about Theoden's line in Helm's Deep:

"Saruman's arm would have grown long indeed if he thinks he can reach us here." WTH, isn't Helm's Deep closer to Isengard then Edoras? Ya, I can see the rationale, "let's flee from Edoras because Saruman is going to attack us, so let's go even closer to him in Helm's Deep." PJ, should have just stuck with Theoden already willing to go to Helm's Deep and fight.

Oh, and I almost forgot, with Elrond, one minute in Rivendell, and bam there you go in Dunharrow. So OK, Haldir bought a Transporter Beam from Scottie, who then lent it to Elrond. Them Elves must have made great strides in technology within the last couple days.

Kuruharan

09-14-2004, 02:35 PM

What's even more unbelievable ELVES! ELVES FROM LOTHLORIEN! FARTHER AWAY THEN GONDOR! Can make it to Helm's deep in a matter of hours, when it takes Aragorn and company days to cross the plains of Rohan and for all their speed Aragorn was nicknamed "wingfoot." I say them Elves must have bought Scottie's Transporter Beam.

You’re right about the elves. However, when I saw that in the movie, I already knew they would be there so somehow it was not so aggravating (in a way).

Part of it was that whole sequence leading up to the battle was so dreadfully done that when the elves arrived it was almost a relief because I knew that the fighting would be starting soon. (The battle sequences being less burdened with plot for PJ to mess up.)

ninlaith

09-14-2004, 04:29 PM

I was absolutely outraged at the absence of the Scouring of the Shire. That was when the Hobbit's were able to show their quality and become true heroes. And another reason, that was when the first Hobbit was killed in the Shire. People will walk out of the movie still thinking that if they're in a safe place such as the Shire no harm will ever come to them. In a way the lack of this information could be helpful, however, Tolkien was trying to make a point with his writings. That is the one mistake that I think ruined a very important aspect of the movie. They are still incredible, riveting movies but some very key moments have been left with no justice being done to them.

Boromir88

09-14-2004, 05:20 PM

I can't get through the Council of Elrond in FOTR without cracking up laughing. First you have Elrond and his rageful talk about "I hate dwarves they hide in mountains, I hate men they are weak, heck I even hate my own race because I'm a old grumpy elf."

Then we have, the Council itself, where these random elves, men, and dwarves just happen to come from nowhere. Ok in the book the "councillers" are, Gandalf, Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli, Gloin, Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir, Elrond, Erestor, Glorfindel, Galdor (1 wizard, 2 hobbits, 2 dwarves, 2 men, 5 elves). In the movie, they replace Bilbo, with about 5 men, 5, dwarves, and 10 elves, and these people just happen to come no where, and there only point is to sit there, look interested, and nod their heads. Why? Why leave out Bilbo, and put in meaningless people who do nothing?

Tuor of Gondolin

09-14-2004, 06:02 PM

While I liked much of the Moria bit there were two poor parts:
1) Moria falling apart, show's what happens when you have too much
deferred maintenance.
2) Orcs surround the Fellowship then are scared away by the balrog.
Why not just have the thousands of orcs finish the nine walkers off?

Of course PJ did it (especially Moria falling down) for his fetish for cinematic
pyrotechnics. One can imagine Gandalf dazzling the orcs with white light and
some sort of cutting through blinded orcs, but the surrounding bit was just
overdone, another example of tampering with the novel leading to an
inferior outcome.

But its remarkable how, when PJ keeps more to the book and adds to it
his cinematography skills, and generally excellent casting, the result is
far better then his plot "innovations", with a few good exceptions, such as
Sean Bean's Boromir, including his (added by scriptwriters?) Lorien
soliloquy.

Son of Númenor

09-14-2004, 06:16 PM

There is a seemingly endless supply of criticisms that can be hurled at Jackson's movies - many are fair, many aren't; I personally didn't think many of the changes he made were for the better, but what really bugged me were lines like Legolas's, "Why am I not surprised?" (Fellowship of the Ring EE) and Aragorn's, "Let's hunt some orc!" Far too colloquial - modern movie clichés, really - to be used by characters like those two. PJ & Co., I think, did a poor job on many of the little things.

Boromir88

09-14-2004, 06:30 PM

Tuor all I got to say FLAMING FIREBALLS SARUMAN! ROTK EE! lol.

The Only Real Estel

09-14-2004, 07:38 PM

I know this is a thread where we're supposed to list all of PJ's mistakes, but I still have to bring up a few points in his defense (about a year ago, you'd never have caught me doing this):

Originally posted by Boromir88:

What's even more unbelievable ELVES! ELVES FROM LOTHLORIEN! FARTHER AWAY THEN GONDOR! Can make it to Helm's deep in a matter of hours, when it takes Aragorn and company days to cross the plains of Rohan and for all their speed Aragorn was nicknamed "wingfoot."

A matter of hours? The telepathic scene took place before Aragorn had even scene the army of Isengard, so that gives them roughly half a day, still not long-except-the telepathic scene implied (to me) that Galadriel & Elrond were talking at night. Should Elrond have made up his mind that night, the elves would've had all night & all of the next day to march, at the very least.

To continue, how about Theoden's line in Helm's Deep:

"Saruman's arm would have grown long indeed if he thinks he can reach us here." WTH, isn't Helm's Deep closer to Isengard then Edoras? Ya, I can see the rationale, "let's flee from Edoras because Saruman is going to attack us, so let's go even closer to him in Helm's Deep." PJ, should have just stuck with Theoden already willing to go to Helm's Deep and fight.

I don't think Theoden was talking about distances here. I believe he was referring to the strength of the hold, "Saruman's arm would have grown long indeed if he thinks he can reach is in here", is another way to put it.

Oh, and I almost forgot, with Elrond, one minute in Rivendell, and bam there you go in Dunharrow

Well, I know that if PJ would've dwelt on scenes showing Elrond on his way to Dunharrow I'd be giving him so flak for that, not to mention he wanted to keep the identity of the character a secret until he took of his hood. Also, Elrond was on a horse (presumably elven), so I'm sure he could travel as fast as he thougth necessary.

People will walk out of the movie still thinking that if they're in a safe place such as the Shire no harm will ever come to them

A good point, except I don't think anyone is dim-witted enough to think they live in a place as perfect & peaceful as the Shire. Although if you ever here of a place like that, let me know so I can get some flight tickets for next summer's vacation :D!

Then we have, the Council itself, where these random elves, men, and dwarves just happen to come from nowhere

Elrond opens the Council by mentioning that he "has called them here". Now, you can still wonder how he got the word out so fast, but I'm willing to bet that there were many days spent in Rivendell before the Council took place (see my point about showing Elrond's travel time).

Orcs surround the Fellowship then are scared away by the balrog.
Why not just have the thousands of orcs finish the nine walkers off?

Well, the orcs were scared to death of the Balrog (in the book Weapons & Warfare they suggest that they may have actually worshipped it), so I don't blame them for scattering. But still, I think you've got a legit point there, so I'll agree with you.

I think, did a poor job on many of the little things.

True. Or at least many of the little speech items that seemed out of place, like:

"Lets hunt some orc!" (Aragorn)

"Why doesn't that suprise me?" Legolas)

"She-elf" (Blackrider)

And others too. Naturally, I could point out a lot of little things that I thought he nailed, but I'll restrain myself on that one ;).

Don't get me wrong, I have issues with parts of the movie just like everyone else. But when I think there is a good explanation for it, I tend to defend it. :)

Encaitare

09-14-2004, 08:44 PM

But its remarkable how, when PJ keeps more to the book and adds to it
his cinematography skills, and generally excellent casting, the result is
far better then his plot "innovations", with a few good exceptions, such as
Sean Bean's Boromir, including his (added by scriptwriters?) Lorien
soliloquy.

Well said, Tuor! I agree; I do know the movies more or less word-for-word, and I love it when I'm rereading the books and I come across a line that was adapted -- or better yet, used directly -- for the movies. Come on, guys. PJ may have done some things that were absoutely heinous, but I still love the movies. They were amazing for what they were, and isn't an imperfect movie better than no movie at all? That's what I think, anyway.

Boromir88

09-15-2004, 04:20 AM

Encaitare as I've said these are probably the best movie I have seen from the past 30 years. I'm just pointing out what I don't like about the movie. Not to brag, but I'm not pointing out any of the cuts PJ made, because I thought most cuts he made were ligitimate, besides maybe some of the key characters. I'm pointing out things he changed, for really stuff that I don't understand why he did it.

Snowdog

09-17-2004, 08:29 AM

I wont go into PJ's script and who he had play the characters here, but I will pick on a few technical issues that bugged me with the movies which could have been corrected very simply. The time/space scale was very confusing and really didn't give the watcher a sense of the distances and the time it took to cover it. This was prevalent in the Fellowship as Gandalf rides off from the Shire to Minas Tirth, then to isengard. A simple subtitle 'some months later' or such would have helped. Also, in return of the King, Osgoliath was not that close to Minas Tirith. At the least it was 20 miles away and the most 50 miles away across Pelennor Field, and there was no Rammas Echor wall in the movie.

To be fair, where PJ did capture the proper time/space scale was where the Uruk Hai, and Aragorn, Gimli, & Legolas were running across Rohan.

There is more, but I'm at work so I dont have the time to elaborate. (hears sighs of relief from the downers)

Sapphire_Flame

09-17-2004, 11:47 AM

Or at least many of the little speech items that seemed out of place, like:

"Lets hunt some orc!" (Aragorn)

"Why doesn't that suprise me?" (Legolas)

"She-elf" (Blackrider)

And others too.

Along with Captain Obvious: "A diversion!" http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de//eek7.gif ... Um?

I was absolutely outraged at the absence of the Scouring of the Shire.

*nod nod* I completely agree with you, ninlaith. It provides an appropriate ending for the journey, and the War. Not to mention at appropriate end for Saruman and Wormtongue (Holy Fire-blasting Wizard Staves, Batman!!)

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

Boromir88

09-17-2004, 01:01 PM

Sapphire
It provides an appropriate ending for the journey, and the War.

It also shows the Mental Growth of the hobbits, and their growth mature wise. In the beginning of the book, The Hobbits needed to seek refuge or aid from others, to protect them from "evils" they face, for example Bombadil, Maggot, Faramir (eventhough he's later on) Aragorn, Bree, all provide and protect the Hobbits away from the "evils" that are approaching. Then heading back to the Shire, Gandalf abandons them and says something along the lines "my task is over, this is your task, you must face it..." And here, they don't need help from an "outside" force, they are mature enough, and have "mentally grown" to the point where they can rally the Shire, and combat the ruffians on their own. Something the movie doesn't show well, the mature growth of the hobbits. Also, I believe the physical growth of Merry and Pippin, by drinking the ent draught, symbolizes their growth maturely.

(Holy Fire-blasting Wizard Staves, Batman!!)

All I got to say is LOL HAHAHA! And, Great show, the old ones are the best!

Encaitare

09-17-2004, 01:52 PM

Plus, the Scouring shows that even their little hobbity "paradise" is not untouchable. The hardest blow for the hobbits was seeing their home destroyed, but with this part taken out it's just all "La dee da, we saved the world and now we're going back to our perfect home! Go us!" I would have loved to have seen the mallorn tree there, especially. And it provides the proper deaths of Saruman and Grima, not what PJ's got in store! (Check out this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11067) thread if you don't mind spoilers.)

Although I must say the hobbits cheekily riding by the old guy sweeping the walkway is priceless. :)

Kuruharan

09-17-2004, 11:39 PM

Something the movie doesn't show well, the mature growth of the hobbits.

Very true. To my mind movie Frodo retained a certain gibbering sissy quality from beginning to end.

This was not a change for the better.

Before you ask, yes, one of the things I was thinking of was that ridiculous (unspeakable, unfathomable, improbable, impossible…) scene with the Nazgul in Osgiliath.

Zebedee

09-18-2004, 07:46 AM

Well, according to PJ's version it would've been. A few hundred men (& presumably no outstanding archers among them, other than Aragorn & Legolas) wouldn't lhave asted nearly long enough for Eomer/Gandalf to come to the rescue of anything but rubble & smoke.

You forgot the Old Guy!

I did not like how they made the Gondorians idiots. Why would Gandalf have to tell them to shoot the trolls and not the towers?

The Only Real Estel

09-18-2004, 11:24 AM

You forgot the Old Guy!

Yeah, well, it doesn't take much markmenship to fire an arrow into a formation of Uruks & hit one ;). But it does to keep hitting them consistently when they're on the move.

I did not like how they made the Gondorians idiots. Why would Gandalf have to tell them to shoot the trolls and not the towers?

I have the feeling that most of the archers were firing at the towers out of desperation. When you see something moving steadily towards your face (& you know it can't be good), I'm guessing you tend to fire desperately at the closest thing (the metal lates). Incidently, I'm with you for the most part on the Gondorian soldiers, but more on the way they seemed to be entirely incapable of fighting off the orcs. Or the way their armour seemed to not be able to hold up to anything :rolleyes:.

Boromir88

09-18-2004, 08:47 PM

The Orcs seemed like some super unstoppable warrior against the Gondorians, I mean they were bashing them with hammers, biting them, throwing them off the wall...etc. Where against the Rohirrim the orcs were as dumb as rocks, I mean if you watch the charge of the Rohirrim, you can see orcs flinging themself into the Rohan horses.

Zebedee

09-19-2004, 02:07 PM

One orc couldn't properly use a bow when the Rohirim charge. (Look closely, you will see one arrow is pointing at the wrong angle)

They did make the Gondorian regulars seem inempt at fighting orcs, though the Ithilian Rangers did a goo job of killing those Easterlings in TTT.

Also, Faramir would not make that suicide charge to Osgiliath in the book.

Encaitare

09-19-2004, 08:23 PM

Well, he did ride for Osgiliath in the book, did he not? It wasn't a "suicide charge" but he did it nonetheless.

The Only Real Estel

09-20-2004, 04:06 PM

Also, Faramir would not make that suicide charge to Osgiliath in the book

Are we talking 'mistakes' that PJ made here-or just things different from the book? Seriously, I could probably post an entire page on things that probably wouldn't happen in the book-but since the movies aren't the books, why nitpick about little things like that?
Obviously, if Jackson gave Frodo red hair or something like that, then we can point to the book on that, but that's a major change to a major character. In fact, even Faramir's hair color change isn't very big; he's not the biggest character in the books, & probably about 75% of book-reading fans don't even catch it until it's pointed out to them.

One orc couldn't properly use a bow when the Rohirim charge. (Look closely, you will see one arrow is pointing at the wrong angle)

Orcs are not primarily bowmen.

Edit: cross-posting down to a matter of seconds with Zebedee

Zebedee

09-20-2004, 04:06 PM

If I'm not mistaken, they still held the Western shore when he road back there.

Tuor of Gondolin

09-20-2004, 05:08 PM

About Faramir's suicide charge: while PJ, as is not infrequently his want, went
overboard in the specifics of Faramir's attack, I think it captures the spirit of the
book far more then , say, Denethor's character and actions.

In truth Faramir did not go by his own choosing. But the Lord of the City was master of his Council, and he was in no mood that day to bow to others.....said Denethor, "we should not lightly abandon the outer defenses, the Rammas made with so great a labour.....It is at Osgiliath that he will put his weight, as before when Boromir denied him the passage.....I will not yield the River and the Pelennor unfought-not if there is a captain here who has the courage to do his lord's will."....."Then farewell!" said Faramir. "But if I should return, think better of me!" "That depends on the manner of your return," said Denethor.

The book is obviously vastly superior to the movie in details and geography,
but the movie does depict the essence of that interaction between Denethor and
Faramir.

Kuruharan

09-20-2004, 06:16 PM

In fact, even Faramir's hair color change isn't very big; he's not the biggest character in the books, & probably about 75% of book-reading fans don't even catch it until it's pointed out to them.

Of course, most of the elves hair color is all wrong too.

However, it is a cultural convention that elves have blonde hair so I guess that's okay.

Boromir88

09-20-2004, 07:44 PM

Estel:
In fact, even Faramir's hair color change isn't very big; he's not the biggest character in the books, & probably about 75% of book-reading fans don't even catch it until it's pointed out to them.

I would have to disagree, I do think physical appearance is a very small, nit-picky, thing. It in no way affect my likeness of the movie, it's just as I mentioned earlier, all these great mental images I got from reading the books, were destroyed when seeing all these blond-haired prancing elves, or some strange reddish-brown haired Gondorian. Now I see Orlando Bloom in a long blond wig, and Sean Bean when reading the book instead of getting those images I had before. But yes, it is a very minor thing that a lot of people don't pick up on, and it does not have any bearing on how I view the movie. I do say, that Faramir's change of hair color, I probably didn't notice until now, I only notices Boromir's and all them blond elves!

In defense of Mr. Jackson, I really do not see another person affecting such a broad fan base, and bringing in so many young, new readers into Tolkien. And I really don't see another person even making the movie much better, not even Tolkien (since I'm not to sure on his directing skills). That I think was PJ's biggest accomplishment of these movies, bringing in a wide fan base, to please most people, and to bring in people who never heard of LOTR before and get them to appreciate the movies and want to read the books.

Tuor I agree, I think PJ did that scene very well, besides the fact that Faramir was the only captain that PJ inserted into that little scene. If I remember I believe Imrahil and a few other lords/captains were present, where PJ just had Faramir, but there was no doubt Denethor was hinting towards Faramir in his words, that he wanted Faramir to go back to Osgiliath and defend it.