Let me know the reason, there is a good lad or lassie

[HerenIstarion]

We are met to discuss our plans, our ways, means, policy and devices. We shall soon before the break of day start on our long journey, a journey from which some of us, or perhaps all of us (except our friends and counsellors, the ingenious spellers Squatter of Amon Rûdh and Rimbaud) may never return. It is a solemn moment. Our object is, I take it, well known to us all. To the estimable average newly deceased, and perhaps to one or two of the younger skeletons (I think I should be right in adding up some wights too, for instance), the exact situation at the moment may require a little brief explanation.

So be it. We are on the holy quest of keeping our spelling correct, our meaning clear, and our writing articulate. In pursuit of the high ideal of our mighty ancestors, we often find ourselves editing posts. And here, here is my humble request:

When editing the post, give a reason. There is a nice 'why' field to Edit window. If you dislike to use it, explain the reason in the post itself, under the heading of 'edit'.

For it is really weird to read the answer which has nothing to do with the post above. Yet one may deduct from the following post that once, in the days of yore, the preceding one was of astounding difference and than changed considerably.

I know that most of you make such an indication. I appeal to those few who don't. Be polite, let us know the reason, even if the reason is merely a mispelling you've noticed on second read only.

With deepest respect

[Fingolfin II]

Hear, hear H-I!

(except our friends and counsellors, the ingenious spellers Squatter of Amond Rûdh adn Rimbaud)

Dear, dear H-I! I suppose the occasional slip-up is allowable, but I certainly encourage a push for better spelling and grammar. Even if a post isn't that great, it looks a lot more credible than a really good post with bad spelling, punctuation or 'chatspeak' and is a lot easier on the eyes I find.

As for editing, I totally concur and being the vigilant poster that you are, I'm sure you're going to give a reason when you edit your above post :D!

[Imladris]

May I broach a silly question? Why is it so important to you, H-I? Forgive my thickness if you have explained it in your post above, but, alas, I was not granted with many brains and I may have missed your explanation.

I can only imagine that you would be concerned with this as a teaching tool for the newly dead?

[HerenIstarion]

Importance: In the past long forgotten and in recent threads, I've met posts edited beyong recognition by their authors after some comments made by other participants. In all the cases I refer to (without names, o'course ;)), the censoring took place after some days, and it was very strange to read comments about things no longer there.

To give you a crude example:

Poster#1, post#1 On the road to Mordor, Sam was carrying two pound worth of carrots
Poster#2 post#2 What carrots, can you provide a reference
Poster#1, post#3 Have not my books handy, but I'll try
Poster#3, post#4 Yes, yes, sure, I remember carrots too!
Poster#4, post#5, No carrots, obviously, I know it for sure
Poster#5, post#6, provides a quote with a proof there were no carrots
Poster#6, post#7, Bur surely there might have been some carrots? Hobbits like carrots, you know?
Poster #5, post#7, Nonsence, I already proved there were no carrots. No potatoes either.

Now suppose poster #1, for some reason, edits the initial post where carrots where mentioned. All of the following is immediately rendered meaningless. What carrots-sess, my precious-ss, what carrotses-ss? It is not ethical to edit in this way at all, but, if you do it, be so kind at least to provide some reason. Something like 'carrots discussed below where deleted for cause...'

Besides, when dates of initial posting and editing stand some days apart, one can't help wandering - why? Maybe something vital, interesting, or, converesely, insulting, was deleted? If something were published, and than changed, what exact changes were made should be known by the public, I believe :)

This thread is not about spelling. We have a plenty of those. This one is about reader's right to know, 'bout 'ethics'.

Edit:

Quick search of the boards on the net revealed the same idea expressed into far less words:

Please do not delete/radically edit post content without an explanation, even if it is a simple typo. To edit a post in a way that changes its content is considered dishonest. Please add a simple note of explanation to any edited post, even if it was only to change a mispelled word

I believe it is a proper way to deal with your fellow board members :)

cheers

[Imladris]

Ah yes, I understand your point. Then it would definitely be a courtesy to say why you drastically edited your post (or changed it in any small way). I wonder if that's why I have been unable to find senten ces I could have sworn were there before....

Hmmm....

*makes mental point to always fill in reason for editings.* I forget you see...

[Bêthberry]

it was very strange to read comments about things no longer there.


Indeed, absence does not make the heart grow fonder. ;)

A lawyer friend of mine gave me this advice some years ago, which I often observe more in the breach than in the using, but it is handy: Quote the passage you are referring to in your own post, so that if any non sequitur-creating edits are made, at least your post will contain the point you are referring to.

Hypothetical post:

Poster#1, post#1 On the road to Mordor, Sam was carrying two pound worth of carrots

Carrots? Rubbish I say! Cabbages and potatoes more likely!

This has not been a billable hour. ;)

[The Saucepan Man]

I profoundly disagree with altering one's original post because one is proved wrong or otherwise regrets what one has originally posted. By far the better (and more honest) course is either to humbly acknowledge the mistake or set out why you said what you did in the first place.

The only time I ever edit posts is either to address a point made by someone I cross-posted with (in which case I make that clear in the text of my post) or to correct typographical errors. Since I can't be bothered to type in "to correct typos" every time I edit, you can take it as red that that's the reason for any edited post of mine where no other reason is stated. :p ;)

This has not been a billable hour.Really? My meter is always running ... :D

[Mithalwen]

I will now make sure I annotate my edits (invariably to tighten the grammar and correct spelling) "To make Heren Istarion curious....".

I was surprised that you can delete without a trace though.

I am so glad I know longer have to charge my time in 10 minute intervals - although when I was office swamplife it did cause a change in tea-making policy when I started charging an hour a day to admin for making hot drinks for everyone in the department :D

[Bêthberry]

I was surprised that you can delete without a trace though.

Not quite, Mithalwen. The Moderators for each forum and the Administrators can still see the deleted posts, although they are marked as deleted.

Mods and Admins also have the option to resurrect deleted posts.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

By far the better (and more honest) course is either to humbly acknowledge the mistake or set out why you said what you did in the first place.

We can't always do that in the RPG forums, though. It would be quite inappropriate to interrupt a game to make a post apologizing for forgetting to eliminate your signature or mistaking where another character was supposed to be. :D

-Aylwen

Edited to add that you could actually post such apologies in the Discussion thread. Silly me. ;)

[Diamond18]

I had that happen to me once. I won't mention thread or name, but I had the unfortunate experience of asking someone to back up some vague claims they made in a post, (i.e. challenging those claims as unfounded) and instead of replying to me they edited their post in such a way that made me look like a rude snitty idiot, as well as rendering my post nonsensical. But that was a long time ago, about two years now. I'm not bitter about it at all.... ;)

[the phantom]

I don't think I've ever given a reason for editing. I didn't because I assumed everyone knew that the phantom would never-
edit a post in a way that changes its content
When I have made an edit in the past it was because I elected to substitute "sprinted" for "ran", or "I seriously doubt that..." for "I don't think that...", or some other silly little change. I would not dream of putting my fellow Downers through the horrors that Miss Diamond endured.

But if it is important to you I will try to give a reason for any future edits. Would something along the lines of "whimsical wording waffling" be suitable?

[HerenIstarion]

It would be perfect :)

I hope you don't look at the whole issue as the silly whim of mine. I know it is not mandatory, nor set by the rules or stated in BD Policies, just 'thus shall I sleep better'

cheers

[Mithalwen]

Not quite, Mithalwen. The Moderators for each forum and the Administrators can still see the deleted posts, although they are marked as deleted.

Mods and Admins also have the option to resurrect deleted posts.

Yes ... I meant as far as the rank and file are concerned . I did delete a post in a fit of pique after a bad rep (justified in that I had got threads confused and it was a bit of a non sequitur :rolleyes: ..).Deletion didn't affect the thread's coherence (probably improved it) but I was surprised that it completely disappeared.
The quote function is very useful to preserve the thing you're referring to.

[Elennar Starfire]

they edited their post in such a way that made me look like a rude snitty idiot

Snit happens, dear Diamond.

[HerenIstarion]

As I was just reminded by Mark 12_30 (http://69.51.5.41/member.php?u=292), there is another thing I cordially dislike, the thing I would be glad to bring your attention to. As it is a minor point, it does not deserve the thread all to itself, but, since it is complaining, let all the eggs be kept in one busket, contrary to popular advice.

So, let me, as usual, provide you with a sample. Suppose we were in some other thread, and I were linking you here:

Take a look at this (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=11191)
Take a look at Let Me Know The Reason, There Is Good Lad or Lassie (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=11191) thread

In both cases I provide the link to the same thread - the one you're currently reading. Both are perfectly acceptable and effective, as their raison d'être the purpose they serve - of bringing you here is over as soon as you're here.

But with a proviso! As we have prominent leadership, and are keeping step with progress, any time the software is updated, the link of the former kind is rendered meaningless. Yes, link of the latter kind is also rendered meaningless, but knowing its name, it can be updated with the little help from my friend Mr. Search Engine (http://69.51.5.41/search.php?). The task is even less tiresome when authorship is also indicated, like this:

Take a look at Let Me Know The Reason, There Is Good Lad or Lassie (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=11191) thread by HerenIstarion (http://69.51.5.41/member.php?u=66)

Now, future generations of the Downers many centuries hence will have not one, but two clues for the noble task of resurrecting dead links, so may use SE or look the thread up by means of the user profile option of find all threads started by <the author>.

I know, it requires more effort, but, as you've already bothered yourself so much as to find the thread you are going to link us to, spend some 20 seconds more and provide it's name too. Please?

[Evisse the Blue]

oookay then... :) Let's put a little order and discipline into our virtual lives, what the heck. :D

[Sharkû]

I heartily second Heren's addition: links can be updated, moved, deleted, whatever; but if you post the name of the thread, things are going to be somewhat easier in future occasions.

As for the unnecessary editing of posts, I can only remind you all that the ability to edit your posts is a privilege, not a right. I know boards which have the feature disabled because there have been cases of members posting something which went too far, only to have them remove it later and play innocent. Admittedly, those boards were less well moderated and the users far less well behaved than ours, but I do think any step towards that extreme is a bad one.
I'm not saying all edits need a reason, especially if the changes aren't substantial. However, I'd also say that anything you have to change or improve can and should be posted in a second post. This would definitely go for cases where you change your mind, have a new idea, or want to phrase something better.

[HerenIstarion]

Vraiment, vous avez raison, monsieur Sharkû

There is no such a need, indeed. I was beeing overly severe in this respect. Let me modify my demand :):

If the edit you are going to make is prior to posted answers to your original post, go ahead without explanations. Per instance:

24-01-05 6:00 PM Original Post
24-01-05 6:30 PM Edit
24-01-05 7:00 PM Post #2

No reason required - it is obvious that post #2 addresses the issues raised by Original Post and Edit together

On the other hand:

24-01-05 6:00 PM Original Post
24-01-05 8:00 PM Edit
24-01-05 7:00 PM Post #2

In that case, it is better to give reason.

cheers