**The Return of the King Extended Edition**

[Morgul Queen]

Yep! It's been released in New Zealand already. So what do you think? What could be improved? What doesn't work? What is awesome?

I'll post my own when I can convince my Mum to hand it over.

[gorthaur_cruel]

I think the EE for RotK was both better and worse than the EE for TTT and FotR. Better, because it had more exciting scenes that people actually wanted to see. FotR didn't really have an outstanding extended scene. Galadriel's gifts, Gilraen's memorial, etc were all great, but nothing that really excites the viewer. Same with TTT. But RotK had scenes like the Voice of Saruman, Witch King vs. Gandalf, Corsairs of Umbar, etc. It had more new action-packed scenes than the first two.

However, the actual scenes themselves seem to flow more naturally for the first two. At least, it did for me. Gandalf and co. are just talking, and Saruman just pops up from the top of his tower talking to Theoden. I've already said elsewhere that it'd be impossible for them to hear Saruman (and vice versa) at that distance. They even whisper to each other and nobody seems to have any hearing difficulties. Also, you don't really see Theoden considering Saruman's offer, since he answers "no" immediately after Saruman finishes asking. I also disliked Saruman's fireball, but other than these, it was a great scene.

Gandalf vs. Witch King scene: I think it doesn't flow very naturally. Gandalf gets Pippin, starts running up, and a few seconds later the heroic music fades out and the WK appears. Then Gandalf also immediately starts saying "Go back to the abyss...". It just sounds like he's reciting it, IMO.
And I don't know...Gandalf just seemed so helpless against the Witch King. I was hoping for something more. I still hold firmly to the belief that Gandalf is more powerful than the WK, but even if PJ wants the Wiki to win, he could have had a better fight. The Witch King just raises his sword, and Gandalf's staff suddenly shatters into a hundred pieces. Sort of ironic, seeing how he broke Saruman's staff in the same way earlier on in the movie. I think that they should have had an actual fight if that's what PJ wanted, sort of like against the Balrog. The current way isn't action-packed enough to satisfy the action lovers, nor is it Tolkien enough to satisfy the purists.
Then Gandalf is lying on the ground, and as soon as the WK is about to kill him, the Rohirrim come. The thing I can't understand is, why doesn't he just stab Gandalf before leaving? He's obviously helpless on the ground. It would take no more than an additional 10 seconds.

I think I liked the other additions however. Overall, I'd give the EE an 8, in comparison to how it COULD have been.

[Boromir88]

So what do you think?
Well...I think I will appreciate it even more then the regular ROTK movie. Since it adds in some of my favorite scenes, the Houses of Healing and Saruman's famous voice.

What could be improved?
I had a hope that Imrahil and Beregond would be in the movies, but I very much doubt that. I would have also liked to have seen the Dunedain. I think Imrahil and Beregond bring two different faces to Gondor that we did not see in the movies. The splendour and strength of the knights of Dol Amroth, then the compassion from Beregond. But oh well, can't get everything :rolleyes: .

What doesn't work?
Aragorn decapitatin all these people (Orc in Moria, Lurtz, and then he decapitates Gothmog). I've also heard he fight, and kills, the Mouth of Sauron, I hope that isn't so. What also doesn't work, and this really isn't about the EE...but....the fact that a man mentioned in one line (Gothmog) has more screen time then the feared general Witch-King, I find that sad.

What is awesome?
What I listed up at the top. The fact that they will have Saruman's end and Saruman's voice (one of my favorite chapters), and they will show why the heck Eowyn and Faramir are together at the end. :rolleyes:

[gorthaur_cruel]

Aragorn decapitatin all these people (Orc in Moria, Lurtz, and then he decapitates Gothmog). I've also heard he fight, and kills, the Mouth of Sauron, I hope that isn't so.

Guess what? He decapitates the Mouth of Sauron too.:) The Mouth of Sauron is taunting him, when Aragorn slowly comes near him. Then he suddenly takes out his sword and slashes his head off. Not my favorite idea either, actually...they don't even fight. Aragorn just beheads him while he's in the middle of a sentence.

[Lalwendë]

I had to watch it last night, had to...but my late night has paid off for I was afraid of spoilers! Might I respectfully and nicely ask that anyone posts the word 'spoiler' at the top of their message if they are going to 'reveal' any surprises? :)

Have to say though, I was very pleased with Saruman's scenes (how could I not be, it was Chris Lee for goodnes sake ;) ), and just wait 'til you see the extended Paths of the Dead :eek: ... now I have all those documentaries to watch and I'm hoping there will be something about Tolkien on there.

[Morgul Queen]

And I love the Houses of Healing. Faramir looks so sweet and Eomer hanging around Eowyn is too cute for words. By far my favourite scene.

Aragorn showing Sauron Anduril looks kind of cheesy. You know, Hi there! You've been hunting me for ages, how are you. Oh, BTW I have a new sword. You like?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I had planned to open an "official" thread for the RotK EE on Tuesday, but since it's already out in places, and Morgul Queen has started this one, I'll just add the two asterisks to make it official. That way, we won't have the board cluttered with multiple duplicate threads. I will, however, add one new thread for discussing the extra features on the 4 DVD version. This one should be used primarily for the additions to the movie itself. Thanks!

[Boromir88]

Lalwende, that will be great. The main scene I was looking forward to was Saruman's, I just want to see how that famous voice comes out. I'll take your word for it a I guess :rolleyes: .

[Lalwendë]

Well, casting an entirely uncritical eye over it, as a Christopher Lee fan, it was perfect. And if I wasn't a fan, then considering he does not die in the manner of the books - which we knew anyway - then a good job was made of the idea. His voice was typically resonant, and I didn't find the whole 'talking from the top of Orthanc' odd at all.

[Nilturiel]

On the whole I think the EE is good; a couple of small scenes from the book who are gorgeous and some other scenes who also works.
But one thing I just can't stand. Why is PJ always making fun of Gimli.. WHY :mad: ?

[Morgul Queen]

Something that I noticed the first time I watched the EE was that, when Aragorn looks at the Dimholt Road, the King of the Dead appears. I'd never seen that before and other, similarily obsessed friends had never seen it before either. Was it in the Theatrical? Or was it added to the EE as a last minute thing?

Also, I have Houses of Healing Screen Caps along with several others. Would anyone be interested in them?

[Lord Melkor]

Alright, here's my review of the EE. Spoilers ahead!!!!

Death of Saruman: Quite nicely done, even though the fireball was rather cheesy. Theoden gives Grima a second chance, Grima obviously wants to leave but Saruman slaps him down. Grima gets angry and grabs his dagger and stabs Saruman multiple times in the back. Legolas shoots Grima who falls back (no cheesy shots of Legolas missing Grima and Grima laughing before being hit by the arrow falling from the sky, so rest at ease, people). Saruman falls from the top of Orthanc and is impaled on some kind of wheel. The wheel starts to turn and Saruman is submerged under the water as the palantir falls out of his hand.


Denethor: I think we can all agree that PJ's portrayal of Denethor has some flaws and none of them are adressed in the EE. There 's an added discussion between Faramir and Denethor about Frodo and Denethor blames Faramir for sending the halfwitted Halfling into Mordor instead of bringing the Ring to Minas Tirith (some drool flies out his mouth as he yells at Faramir) before lamenting about losing Boromir after which his stumbles and falls on the ground. We then see him practically crying as he has a vision of Boromir walking towards him. The vision disappears and he snarls at Faramir to get out. We also get some snide comments from Gandalf talking to Pippin about Denethor being a madman and how the rule of Gondor was entrusted to 'lesser men' after the last of the kings. No mention is made of how Denethor was the next best thing after Aragorn and how he was an excellent Steward for many years. They even claim Denethor was more like Boromir instead of Faramir! No mention is made of the Palantir. Defintiely the lowpoint for me in the entire movie. Here we have an interesting grey character and he's turned into an incompetent, malignant, insane buffoon of a man. Too bad really, since John Noble is an excellent actor and could've easily played a Denethor with at least a shred of Numenorean dignity.


Mouth of Sauron: Quite a creepy guy. Has a very nasty grin which he uses a lot. He also makes weird sounds while showing off his tongue. His death is rather odd though. He taunts the fellowship about Frodo's painful end and Aragorn slowly rides up to him. The Mouth sees him and says it takes more than some old sword to make a king, after which Aragorn rather unceremoniously chops of his head. Gimli then cracks a joke about how this act apparently ends the negotiations after which the fellowship retreats back to their army as the Black Gate opens to reveal Sauron's legions.

Other things added are: The Crossraods, Houses of Healing, the Corsairs, Frodo and Sam's march with the Orcs, some extra scenes of Sam and Frodo crossing through Mordor and some other stuff.

Overall grade: 8/10

-1 because no DVD can be a 10 and some minor flaws and -1 for the continued butchering of Denethor. Overall this DVD is a must-have for any fan of the movies and I can heartily recommend it to anyone. :)

[Essex]

Negative points first .

First of all, I don't understand why Jackson left out the Gandalf / witch king scene from the theatrical release. still, he may explain this on the commentaries that I've yet to watch.

The first thing I noticed when the film ended was where was the 48 minutes of new scenes? It just didn't feel like there was that much extra.

Houses of healing. Really, there was hardly anything at all. Just Aragorn squeezing some water over eowyn's face. And, what, 30 seconds between Eowyn and Faramir to fall in love?

And final negative point. I was desperatly waiting for any scenes of Merry's entrance into Minas Tirith and Gandalf's best line that Merry should have been brought inot the city in great honour. Also, Eowyn's line to eomer that Merry should be made a Knight of Rohan. Pity, really.

Anyway, enough negatives, now positives.

The Mouth of Sauron. Whow, best 'monster' in the film by a mile. Absoultely rivetting. The way he quickly snaps his head towards each person as they talk or make a sound. Really creepy. And hey, I don't mind him having his head chopped off by Aragorn.

crossroads. yay! although it's sam that noticies the shaft of light lighting up the king's head, not frodo. one of my favourite parts of the book back in.

aragorn with the palantir. really explains how he diverts sauron's gaze from the hobbits. I know this happens earlier in the book, but it seems to me to be faithful to what actually happens. although the evenstar smashing to pieces???? why?

voice of saruman. excellent. why are people complaining that theoretically they could not have heard saruman's voice from that far up. What, and they're ok with a magic ring making someone invisible????

Eomer explaining to eowyn that war wasn't for women and hobbits. ha ha ha, you silly fool, with one quick stab from a hobbit and a final blow from a woman, the fate of Middle-earth was saved. without the death of the witch king, minas tirith would probably be raised to the ground, and more importantly, the two orc hunters that frodo and sam stumbled upon would have no doubt found the hobbits and captured the Ring. end of story......

sam and frodo caught by the travelling orcs. pretty much as the book is, except I don't remember frodo picking a fight with Sam in the book!

What a lot of these scenes give us, as in TT, is explanations to some of the sticking points in the theatrical release. for example, Pippin now seing Minas Tirith in flames (rather than Aragorn later on) has more credence, as Gandalf is told by Saruman that 'something festers in the heart of middle-earth' (ie denethor / minas tirith) and Gandalf doesn't know at that point exactly where Sauron will strike. when pippin explains his vision, gandalf understands.

corsairs. at least he didn't waste too much time over this with a major fight scene. one quick shot of jackson taking a fall and it was over.

Lots of other points to mention, but we'll no doubt pick up on them over the next few weeks on these boards.

[Boromir88]

Essex,
Eomer explaining to eowyn that war wasn't for women and hobbits. ha ha ha, you silly fool, with one quick stab from a hobbit and a final blow from a woman, the fate of Middle-earth was saved.
You got to love irony :D .
although the evenstar smashing to pieces???? why?
I'm guessing PJ needed a way to explain why Aragorn would die if he was giving Evenstar. Arwen gave Evenstar to Frodo. So, I think PJ just wanted to show, well, heck if Aragorn has Evenstar why does he die? I know I have been asked that many times.

Don't get me started on Denethor, that'll get me in a bad mood all day :eek: .

Overall though I enjoyed the extra scenes, I thought it tied up a lot of the loose ends.

[Turin]

My overall impression from the EE is that it doesn't reconcile many of my disappointments that I had with the theatrical version. In fact, it has rather deflated my (already deflating) enthusiasm for the Trilogy, in general.

Some of my observations:

1. Voice of Saruman scene just didn't do it for me. There is no ominous atmosphere created and Saruman's death was pretty pathetic: they could have at least made it so that his body disappears and his spirit departs.

2. The swaggering Aragorn. I think the over-use of the Army of the Dead lessens the impact that Aragorn and co have in determining a successful outcome to the Battle of Pelennor. I think it would have been nice to show that there were many Gondorians who had been freed from the Corsairs and aid Minas Tirith at the last moment. Also, are Gimli and Legolas still playing their Orc-counting game? Talk about over-egging the pudding!! :(

3. The dialogue. To put it mildly: Inconsistent. At times moving and well-thought out, at other times, appalling and laughable!! Especially Gandalf's lines.

4. Denethor. Still no improvement and probably the worst characterisation in the whole trilogy. Awful.

5. Mouth of Sauron. I always imagined him to be an ominous, creepy character, more man than orc (which is how I feel he is portrayed in the movie). Instead it is almost comical the way he is portrayed. I wanted to laugh, not hold my breath in dreaded anticipation!

6. Gandalf Vs Witch King. I thought that this would have been one of the most dramatic scenes in the whole of the trilogy. I would have liked this scene to have been more closer to the book: Gandalf holding his own at the Gate and not being intimidated. It's ridiculous, after all that Gandalf has been through (including having his powers enhanced) that he should succumb so easily to the Lord of the Nazgul and have his staff broken. Come on! :confused:

7. Eowyn and Merry. I thought that they could have suffered a bit more in the Houses of Healing! I agree that Gandalf's words in the book when Merry is being led by Pippin would have been particularly poignant.

[Essex]

I know I've already had my say, but let me point out one thing re the Witch King / Gandalf confrontation:


Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.


This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

Gandalf's staff. IMO I believe this was broken to make the next scene with him confronting Denethor more of a contest than just being able to zap him with his staff. Remember Gandalf had to nab a spear off one of the guards to knock him down with.....Just my opinion and I'll be interseted to hear Jackson's point on this on the commentary if he has one.

[Boromir88]

I thought anything with Denethor in it was done badly. The Pyre scene especially. I mean Denethor pours oil on himself, gets too close to a flame, goes up in flames, runs out screaming, like a maniac. What did you expect? You poured flammable liquid on yourself and caught on fire.

Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.

This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.
Makes sense to me. As you've said, eventhough Gandalf wasn't a "man," his powers were limitted and he was shown in man form. ;) We also, must remember, that the Witch-king is no chump either. Eowyn would have gotten annhilated if it wasn't for Merry. (Sorry Eowyn I still love you :) ).

[Boromir88]

I know I'm posting again, but a thought came to me on Saruman.

Turin,
1. Voice of Saruman scene just didn't do it for me. There is no ominous atmosphere created and Saruman's death was pretty pathetic:
Actually, I thought Chris Lee captured Saruman's voice perfectly. Exactly as I imagined it. After hearing his voice, I can see that Chris Lee truly understands Tolkien. Also, since PJ cut out the Scouring I thought the death of Saruman was really the best way they could have done it.

First-It's a metareference back to his earlier days as Dracula. Where several times Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes.

Second- If you think about it. Tolkien hates industry, hates machinery. Saruman is one that built up, he was like the "Germany," he was always mixing races, building industries, creating rings, in search for power. I think it's only natural that Saruman dies on his own machines that he constructed, a rather fitting end.

[The Saucepan Man]

I have a copy of the EE which I purchased last Friday, but I still haven't had a chance to watch it yet. Christmas preparations (Christmas tree, wrapping up presents etc) pretty much took up the whole weekend, and now I'm back at work ... :(

Still, I am savouring the anticipation. :D

One small, but important, point:

Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.


This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him. The prophecy was to the effect that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, not that he could not be killed by a man. The Witch King was not therefore "impervious" to Gandalf. It was just that, according to the prophecy, the circumstances would never arise whereby a man would be in a position to destroy the Witch King.

Nevertheless, I doubt that any of the points that have been raised will impair my enjoyment of the EE. After all, these films tell a different story from the book, so inconsistencies between the films and the book don't really bother me. As long as they enhance the films as films and don't introduce any inconsistencies within the films, then I'll be happy. And, on that basis, it sounds as if I have a treat in store. :)

[Avie]

Got to agree with comments regarding Denethor. Dreadful melodramatic acting (you half expect folks to yell Boo! Hiss! when he appears so much a pantomime villian does he appear) and no sense whatsoever of Tolkien's "noble mind overthrown"
And film Faramir...YACK. Total damsel in distress requiring rescuing from this or that at roughly hourly intervals...
Loved the extended Paths of the Dead sequences though and the added palantir scene with Aragorn is good too.
The EE is worth having but does not undo the general film-version mess made of Denethor's family.

[Boromir88]

Nevertheless, I doubt that any of the points that have been raised will impair my enjoyment of the EE. After all, these films tell a different story from the book, so inconsistencies between the films and the book don't really bother me.
SpM, I'll try to make this from a movie critiquers point-of-view, and not a purists. I won't do any mentioning of what PJ left out from the books :) .

I thought the acting was splendid, and the scenery, that's what totally catches me about the movies. I thought PJ did a excellent job on those aspects. Even despite my dislike for the slaughter of Denethor's character, John Noble is still a great actor, and plays a really good scumbag you want to punch, like Gandalf....

The problem to me was a lack of character developement. I think PJ tried to focus in on the battle scenes (which are important, but that I don't think is Tolkien's point of the story). He tried to make the battle scenes a focus, and did not focus in enough on the Characters. It's not the fact that PJ missed some concepts that gets me mad (because after all we do miss some concepts, and are still debating over others). Just the simple fact that he made this an action-packed fighting movie, instead of a more sentimental, character focused story. The recent National Treasure movie is what comes to mind. I love this movie, and most people slam it because there is not enough explosions or killing. This, to me, is a wonderful movie, because each character brings their own personality to the table. And we see their character change to fit the conflict they are in. The dialogue in National Treasure, I thought was great. Anyway, I think I rambled on enough.

[Turin]

I agree that there was an over-reliance on battle scenes. Too many battles undermine our (the audience) appreciation of the peril that the characters are confronted with.

There seemed to me to be a lack of depth to the movies. They were too dumbed-down for a start, which shows glaringly in RoTK (Elrond giving the sword to Aragorn, Denethor etc etc etc).

I think movie producers are so arrogant and conceited. They lessen the mood and atmosphere of LoTR to appease the so called "majority" of people who would not have read the book. What they haven't realised is that they have prevented LoTR from becoming an all-time great movie, rather than a slightly-above-average one. My opinion, of course.

Hence, they put in ridiculous things as Legolas the rodeo star; Gimli - making him into a laughing stock (not to mention the appalling jokes), just so that PJ & Co could exploit most people's perceptions of dwarves as being something from Snow White; Gandalf the half-wise, half-blundering buffoon (at times) etc etc. I could go on.

That's not to detract from the good stuff, and there is plenty of it. Though overall the lack of character depth is detriment to the whole "feel" of the movie.

[Essex]

IThe prophecy was to the effect that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, not that he could not be killed by a man. The Witch King was not therefore "impervious" to Gandalf. It was just that, according to the prophecy, the circumstances would never arise whereby a man would be in a position to destroy the Witch King.
OK, you seem to be better versed in the circumstances of this Prophecy (I admit I can't get my hands on when it's actually said - is it in the Council of Elrond or unfinished tales or what?)

But to add to my point of view, Mr Angmar himself is fairly sure of himself, but I suppose this could be misguided arrogance......

WK (to Eowyn) as he's about to kick her butt: (or so he thinks)

Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!I've no doubt missed the thread or forgotten about it where we've discussed this before. Or it may have been before my time....

[The Saucepan Man]

... is it in the Council of Elrond or unfinished tales or what?It is in one of the Appendices. I haven't got the book to hand, but it's the section dealing with the final defeat of the Witch King of Angmar at the Battle of Fornost. The prophecy was made by Glorfindel, as he held Earnur back from following the retreating Witch King.

I don't think that it is made clear whether the Witch King was aware of the prophecy or whether he was simply displaying his arrogance at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Although the fact that he shows sudden doubt when Eowyn reveals her true identity might suggest that he was aware of it.

In any event, it might be said that Glorfindel's prophecy is irrelevant for the purposes of the film, since it is never mentioned. We only have the Witch King's declaration that no living man may hinder him. And that, I suppose, could be interpreted as indicating that he is impervious to any man (including, on the basis of your reasoning, Gandalf).

[Boromir88]

If I'm not mistaken in ROTK, Gandalf mentions the Witch-King to Pippin. When Pippin and Gandalf are sitting out on the balcony, Pippin says (paraphrasing) "That's ok we have the White Wizard, that's got to account for something. (Sees a troubled Gandalf) What is it?"
Gandalf: "Sauron has yet to unleash his greatest foe, the Witch-King of Angmar, the one they say no living man can kill."

So possibly instead of Glorfindel saying it PJ has another credible character, a more familiar one everyone can connect with, Gandalf?

[The Saucepan Man]

Sauron has yet to unleash his greatest foe, the Witch-King of Angmar, the one they say no living man can kill.You may well be right there. I hadn't picked up on it.

If that's the line, it backs up the "imperviousness" interpretation, rather than the "circumstances" interpretation of the books - where Glorfindel says something like: "His doom is far off and will not come by the hand of a living man". (Of course, it didn't stop impetuous old Earnur running off into Mordor when the Witch king issued his challenge though, thus leaving Gondor without a King. :rolleyes: )

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

I, frankly, wasn't overly impressed with the EE.

So, positives:
~I really liked the discussion between Gandalf and Pippin after they storm out of Denethor's Hall. It seemed to fit in really nicely there, and I liked the dialogue. There was some dialogue added to this film that seemed out of place.
~The scene between Aragorn and Eowyn in the hall was nice, but unnecessary.
~I liked a lot of the smaller added stuff, such as Merry speaking to Aragorn as they watch Pippin and Gandalf ride off, Merry trying to get his pony to go while the Rohirrim are leaving, the look between Gandalf and Pippin during the drinking song... stuff like that.
~I cried a little when Eomer found Eowyn on the battlefield. Go Karl! I also enjoyed the short Houses of Healing part. I love the look when Faramir sees Eowyn, but I do wish there had been more between them.
~I love Frodo and Sam joining up with the orc bands.

There are other positives, but my brain is mush after that long.

Negatives:
~After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.
~The Gimli and Legolas drinking was cheesy and seemed out of place.
~Gimli tries to blow away the ghosts? Sometimes I think that too much "comic relief" is thrust upon poor Gimli.
~Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.
~I liked the Houses of Healing scene with her and Faramir, but so much of it was lost... no mention of her being beautiful, no talk of Aragorn... no wedding :(
~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.

[Turin]

I, frankly, wasn't overly impressed with the EE.

Negatives:
~After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.
~The Gimli and Legolas drinking was cheesy and seemed out of place.
~Gimli tries to blow away the ghosts? Sometimes I think that too much "comic relief" is thrust upon poor Gimli.
~Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.
~I liked the Houses of Healing scene with her and Faramir, but so much of it was lost... no mention of her being beautiful, no talk of Aragorn... no wedding :(
~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.

At last! Someone who agrees with me! :D

[Essex]

~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.

Campy?????

I thought he was the best, most 'frightening' monster in the whole trilogy.

If you saw the MoS down an alleyway, would your first impression be Campy? I don't think so! And I know what I would do in that situation. I'd run as fast as I could in the opposite direction, throwing women and children behind me!

(sorry, nicked that last line from Billy Connolly)

[Guinevere]

Originally posted by Turin:My overall impression from the EE is that it doesn't reconcile many of my disappointments that I had with the theatrical version. In fact, it has rather deflated my (already deflating) enthusiasm for the Trilogy, in general. I agree with everything that Turin wrote in post #15 !

About the dialogues being inconsitant: I think so too! My favourite parts in all the movies are the parts where Tolkien's original quotes are used. But, more often than not, these quotes are spoken by different persons and in different circumstances. It annoys me that the scriptwriters thought they could do better than Tolkien...

There are several things that puzzled me in the new scenes:
- Saruman tells Gandalf "What words of comfort did you give the halfling before you sent him to his doom?" This sounds like he knows about Frodo being sent to Mt.Doom with the Ring... but how would he know that, and Sauron doesn't ? Strange...
I enjoyed seeing and hearing Christopher Lee again, but the scene "didn't do it" for me either.

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out... ;)

- I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ? And why do they let them land calmly instead of shooting them before they have landed?
"Faramir's sacrifice" indeed. It's more stupid than desperate to ride in a broad line towards the orcs lying in wait for them, so as to offer them the most possible targets!

- the avalanche of skulls in the Paths of the Dead was exaggerated and seemed therefore rather ridiculous to me.
I was astonished to see that when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli emerge from the paths, the river with the corsair's ships is immediately below them. Well, at least that explains why they could afford to let the horses escape before entering the paths! But even if they take a shortcut and do not make for Pelargir, Anduin would still be quite a long way off, as is shown on the map on the DVD-cover!!
Overall, ME in the movies seems much, much smaller than in the books.
- I, too, was mystified by the smashed "Evenstar". But then, the whole thing about Arwen dying and her fate being tied to the Ring etc never seemed logical to me.
- the "Houses of Healing" disappointed me too. No Athelas, no "healing hands" no "calling back" the spirit and Faramir & Merry aren't healed by Aragorn. I guess they just didn't want Aragorn to have supernatural powers..

-The „Mouth of Sauron“ seemed more disgusting than frightening to me. And I was disappointed about the changed conversation. What was the use of thrusting Frodo’s shirt at Gandalf and telling him that he had died under torment ? It seemed much more effective to me as it was in the book, where he implies that Frodo is in Sauron’s power but alive – that way he could try to blackmail them.


Like Tigerlily Gamgee I liked many of the small scenes that she mentioned and that enhanced the characters.
- My favourite new scene is "Pippin, guard of the Citadel" where he speaks with Faramir and is told that the livery was his as a boy. It's so nice to see those two become friends, and explains why Pippin will do everything to safe Faramir.

- I liked the scene with Faramir and Eowyn - it was very well done, although it was way too short! I had been looking forward to that so much! However, if those two weren't given more time and speech together, it was better to leave it at that, and not to show any kiss or talk of wedding.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Campy?????

I thought he was the best, most 'frightening' monster in the whole trilogy.

If you saw the MoS down an alleyway, would your first impression be Campy? I don't think so! And I know what I would do in that situation. I'd run as fast as I could in the opposite direction, throwing women and children behind me!

It wasn't so much the way he looked, but the way he spoke. The trilogy has a huge lot of exaggerated "monster" voices, so to speak.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

For now, a few brief comments:

1) Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

2) In the extended dvd, why did Legolas shoot Grima? Grima was in the
process of, successfully, whacking Saruman.

3) The voice of Saruman was still underplayed, Saruman was far too
high up, not on the balcony of Orthanc, and there was no confrontation/
temptation of others by his voice, and no express allusion to the power of
his voice.

4) And, while the Easter Egg wasn't as "surprising" as the first two, I am
zinking the German interviewer certainly sought to ask probing and
provocative questions of Elijah Wood.

[The Saucepan Man]

I bet you lot would all refer to a glass as half empty ... :p ;)

[Lalwendë]

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...

Why? Because she is a lady and t'would be unbecoming to share a chamber with all those men! ;)

Actually, I thought Chris Lee captured Saruman's voice perfectly. Exactly as I imagined it. After hearing his voice, I can see that Chris Lee truly understands Tolkien. Also, since PJ cut out the Scouring I thought the death of Saruman was really the best way they could have done it.

Going back to what Boromir 88 says about Saruman and Chris Lee, he did have the chance to meet Tolkien, and he also reads LotR every year so he is 'one of us'. i.e. a fan, and this shows in his performances in each of the films. Saruman truly comes to life in Lee's capable hands. This performance reminded me of his Wicker Man performance, both charming and treacherous.

About the power of his voice - surely one of the strengths of it is that he can get his words into the mind of any listener no matter how far away, so his being on top of Orthanc made sense to me.

The only disappointing thing was that his spirit did not rise to face Valinor and get rejected. But then this might have confused a fair few viewers so it's perfectly excusable. That was interesting though - the wheel of spikes; and he was the one who built the big ugly mill in Hobbiton, so a little link to the 'book version' there?

[Boromir88]

I feel a long post coming on here:

Guinevere,
I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ?
I laugh everytime I see the archers at Minas Tirith, shooting the large wooden siege towers, and not the trolls. Then Gandalf has to tell them "aim for the trolls!"

Tuor:
Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.
I can understand if Mr. Jackson wants to show some weakness in Denethor, since it would stress the fact that Gondor was in need of a King. I think the fact that in the books, that no enemy entered Minas Tirith, it was a nice defensive strategy by Denethor, and a good leadership quality of Gandalf. However, what people want to see this huge army come to the gates and be stopped in their track? Getting them in on the 4-5 levels adds suspense. Plus, it stresses that Gondor needs a King, where if people see this strategy by Denethor, that halts the Enemy in it's tracks people would wonder, was there a need for a king? The thing that gets me mad is Gandalf using the Steward as a punching bag, if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him. It has no unity, or plausibility, that people would watch while their lord is getting beaten up. Even if he was a raging mad man, who knew? Pippin might have, Gandalf probably, but if his servants are still willing to listen to him when he says "Burn my son," and they don't stop him from getting cracked in the face, just puzzles me, there is no unity. The other thing I'm dissapointed in, I can see Gondor being made weak, and see Denethor being dumped upon, but they made him seem like a crazy mad man ever since he took rule. And made it seem that Denethor was the worst thing that ever came to Gondor. without the palantir just makes him look more like a jerk then he already was. I hope that spiel wasn't too long, onto the next thing.

Tiger,
After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.
Good point about the banter. I imagined the scene as Saruman coming off as he's sorry in an attempt to manipulate Theoden. I wanted to see the Rohirrim cheering at the voice of Saruman, and then wonder in amazement when Theoden denied him. But that's how I pictured it and I don't find it dissapointing. I do not like how it's the almighty Legolas who kills Grima. I think Grima was one of the more pitable characters in Tolkien, and with his death in the book, I actually felt sorry for the guy. Now he will go down as the dirty scumbag that all great Legolas killed. But, that's how I view it.

With Saruman's death chech this post.
Origninally posted by me.
First-It's a metareference back to his earlier days as Dracula. Where several times Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes.

Second- If you think about it. Tolkien hates industry, hates machinery. Saruman is one that built up, he was like the "Germany," he was always mixing races, building industries, creating rings, in search for power. I think it's only natural that Saruman dies on his own machines that he constructed, a rather fitting end.
I think those are the reasons behind why PJ did what he did. Whether you like them or not though, is up to you :) Also, without the scouring, I'm just glad that they EVEN had Saruman. I think consdidering the circumstances that was a fitting end for Saruman.

And also, see this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11284) for a nice discussion on Saruman's and Grima's death (PJ's way).

Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.
I would have preferred to have Eowyn disquised as Dernhelm too. However, we already know it's Eowyn by her voice and Merry so cleverly says "My lady." I too don't understand why Eowyn is walking around with her helmet off. She disguised herself, to sneak in without Theoden's approval, yet she's walking around "undisguised."

[mark12_30]

Not I, Saucy. I love the EE. Much praise to give, contrasted with one gripe. The glass is , hmmmm, ninety-five to ninety-eight percent FULL.

A Few Spoilers:

Eowyn's healing: Brief, but brilliant. Tribute to the fans, every bit of it. You had to know the book to know what was going on, to read behind the lines: Aragorn dips the cloth into the water: we know it's aethelas-water. He laves her brow with it: that's what you do with aethelas water. Then her cold, lifeless, very-grey arm-- her shield arm! We know why. And finally we watch her slowly wake-- we know why; there was a long struggle first, not but you couldn't take the time to explain it to non-bookies. Eomer is sitting very near, very concerned, while Aragorn does all this: but when Eowyn opens her eyes, who is she seeing? Is it Eomer? I'll have to watch it again to be sure. They never even explained that "the hands of a king are the hands of a healer." Therefore-- the whole scene was in a sense meaningless to those who hadn't read the book. It was a pure fan-tribute (not unlike Treebeard quoting Bombadil's lines to pseudo-Old Man Willow.)

That showed me (once again) how dedicated these film-makers (the whole team) are to making Old-school Tolkien fans as happy as they can. They already had their oscars, they could have just sat on their laurels. I'm glad they didn't.

Now for my one gripe: Black Gate, MoS. (I liked his portrayal just fine; I thought the arrogant, coquettish tiliting of his head was excellent. He thought he was just the cat's meow. Ugh! ) And I thought the whole Mithril shirt thing was well-done. But here's what bugged me. Aragorn, son of Arathorn, Elessar, Elfstone, the Heir of Isildur: breaking parley by murdering the messenger? Completely out of character. Where's the honor in that? No challenge, no warning, just-- whack. That breaks the code of war, and that is something Aragorn would not have done. And (while I'm at it) why was Gimli nudging Legolas' bow, supposed to be funny? Same thing. Breaking parley-- *not* cool.

Okay, end rant.

Otherwise: I loved it. Here are a few of my hilites:

Eomer's lecture: Good setup for what follows.
Merry talks to Eowyn: Very nice.
Balking Stybba: Excellent!!
Faramir & Pippin-- superb, I thought.
Magnificent: Rath Dinen. The sweep and scope of the city is fuller, more historical, and it brings TTT "Arwen at Aragorn's bier" scene momentarily back into focus.
Eomer's grief: too brief... but I'm glad it was there.
Houses of healing: did you SEE that garden-room? Or whatever it was, that rear-aerial shot, in the houses of healing? Gorgeous.
The orc with the Mithril shirt getting away-- Very key.
"You see, Mister Frodo? Some luck at last!" And then here come the troops. Great Irony.
Frodo picking a fight with Sam among the orcs: I liked it. It showed a Frodo that still had some brains left.
Sam's Pans, Sam's Pans! Oh, that was SO good.

[Boromir88]

Eowyn's healing: Brief, but brilliant.
My view on a lot of the extra scenes is the fact that I'm proud they actually added in those scenes! Whether they were brief or not. I do think the HoH was a necessary addition, doesn't make sense that Eowyn and Faramir are deadly sick, then with no explanation are all of a suddenly healed and glaring at eachother at Aragorn's coronation.

The fact that they have the Mouth, Saruman's ending, the HoH, makes me appreciate it. Saruman's voice is one of my favorite chapters from the whole book, I love when Eowyn is finally happy with a guy :D (darnit I thought I had a shot). I think just adding this stuff in we should be pleased, instead of griping about how there wasn't enough time spent on it. But, anyway, I'm done ranting again.

[Turin]

Originally posted by Turin: I agree with everything that Turin wrote in post #15 !

About the dialogues being inconsitant: I think so too! My favourite parts in all the movies are the parts where Tolkien's original quotes are used. But, more often than not, these quotes are spoken by different persons and in different circumstances. It annoys me that the scriptwriters thought they could do better than Tolkien...

There are several things that puzzled me in the new scenes:
- Saruman tells Gandalf "What words of comfort did you give the halfling before you sent him to his doom?" This sounds like he knows about Frodo being sent to Mt.Doom with the Ring... but how would he know that, and Sauron doesn't ? Strange...
I enjoyed seeing and hearing Christopher Lee again, but the scene "didn't do it" for me either.

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out... ;)

- I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ? And why do they let them land calmly instead of shooting them before they have landed?
"Faramir's sacrifice" indeed. It's more stupid than desperate to ride in a broad line towards the orcs lying in wait for them, so as to offer them the most possible targets!

- the avalanche of skulls in the Paths of the Dead was exaggerated and seemed therefore rather ridiculous to me.
I was astonished to see that when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli emerge from the paths, the river with the corsair's ships is immediately below them. Well, at least that explains why they could afford to let the horses escape before entering the paths! But even if they take a shortcut and do not make for Pelargir, Anduin would still be quite a long way off, as is shown on the map on the DVD-cover!!
Overall, ME in the movies seems much, much smaller than in the books.
- I, too, was mystified by the smashed "Evenstar". But then, the whole thing about Arwen dying and her fate being tied to the Ring etc never seemed logical to me.
- the "Houses of Healing" disappointed me too. No Athelas, no "healing hands" no "calling back" the spirit and Faramir & Merry aren't healed by Aragorn. I guess they just didn't want Aragorn to have supernatural powers..

-The „Mouth of Sauron“ seemed more disgusting than frightening to me. And I was disappointed about the changed conversation. What was the use of thrusting Frodo’s shirt at Gandalf and telling him that he had died under torment ? It seemed much more effective to me as it was in the book, where he implies that Frodo is in Sauron’s power but alive – that way he could try to blackmail them.


Like Tigerlily Gamgee I liked many of the small scenes that she mentioned and that enhanced the characters.
- My favourite new scene is "Pippin, guard of the Citadel" where he speaks with Faramir and is told that the livery was his as a boy. It's so nice to see those two become friends, and explains why Pippin will do everything to safe Faramir.

- I liked the scene with Faramir and Eowyn - it was very well done, although it was way too short! I had been looking forward to that so much! However, if those two weren't given more time and speech together, it was better to leave it at that, and not to show any kiss or talk of wedding.

Guinevere, you speak for me too! I agree about some of the more um...illogical choices that PJ & C0 made and definitley that some of the really good scenes were just too short.

[Turin]

For now, a few brief comments:

1) Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

2) In the extended dvd, why did Legolas shoot Grima? Grima was in the
process of, successfully, whacking Saruman.

3) The voice of Saruman was still underplayed, Saruman was far too
high up, not on the balcony of Orthanc, and there was no confrontation/
temptation of others by his voice, and no express allusion to the power of
his voice.

4) And, while the Easter Egg wasn't as "surprising" as the first two, I am
zinking the German interviewer certainly sought to ask probing and
provocative questions of Elijah Wood.

You echo some of my thoughts, Tuor! I'd forgotten about my uncomfortable feeling when Legolamb.. sorry LEGOLAS shoots Grima.

[Boromir88]

The point I'm trying to get at is I truly think PJ read and understood LOTR. PJ's explanations for why he changed what he did, are reasonable. Whether they are to appeal to a larger fan base. To, what's the term, make LOTR "dumber," to emphasize certain aspects of the movie. I think PJ understood a lot of concepts in Tolkien, I also think he misinterpretted some of Tolkien's points (focusing in on the battles for one), but we all make misinterpretations from time to time. And we are STILL, here debating over, "What Tolkien is meaning to say/show us here?"

One thing for sure, we can all credit Mr. Jackson for having Tolkien placed back as one of the top selling authors of the century. That is the number one reason I enjoy the movies, the matter is, PJ got more people to pick up Tolkien books and read them :) .

[Guinevere]

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...


Why? Because she is a lady and t'would be unbecoming to share a chamber with all those men!
Well, I think it would be more becoming and normal if she slept in her chamber, and all those men out in the hall!! But that would't give her an opportunity to talk to Aragorn.

I forgot to mention a small incident which I appreciate very much because it is one of my favourite scenes in the book: the glimpse of the star above the clouds that Sam sees in Mordor, and his comment. :)

[Turin]

I bet you lot would all refer to a glass as half empty ... :p ;)

Us lot? You mean those people who DARE to find criticisms in Saint Peter Jackson's movies?

One is not a pessimist just because one finds (according to them) genuine faults in the movies.

In return, it could be said about, those "lot" who think the movies are perfect, that they are jumping on the Bandwagon!

[Boromir88]

No need to get fiesty, we all have a right to our own opinions.

Looking down this thread, the criticisms in the movie are a bit nit-picky. There are a few valid criticisms I can see where people aren't happy with. But the fact that there wasn't enough time in the HoH, Saruman being on top of Orthanc instead of the balcony, and the Mouth of Sauron, I find rather carping insignificant criticisms.
But that's just my take.

I think we would have all appreciated to see some more HoH, but think of it this way....
First off people would be complaining if there WAS NO Houses of Healing. So, consider this, would you rather have however long it was, 30 seconds, of Houses of Healing, or no Houses at all? Oh well, sometimes there's just no pleasing some folks.

I honestly don't believe someone else could have done as good of a job as PJ has pleasing Tolkien readers (most of them), and atracting in a large fan group.

[The Saucepan Man]

You mean those people who DARE to find criticisms in Saint Peter Jackson's movies?I have no objections to criticisms, provided that they are validly and intelligently made (and there are many, both here and elsewhere, that fall into this category, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't). My main "gripe" (if you can call it that as :p ;) = flippant comment), is the prevailing negativity with little counterbalance of positivity. According to the prevailing opinion on this thread, the EE is dreadful and not worth wasting my time over (and I somehow doubt that to be the case). I will no doubt agree with some of the criticisms (indeed, I already do, having seen some of the trailers) but it surely it can't be all bad (which is the impression given by the majority of (recent at least) posts here).


One is not a pessimist just because one finds (according to them) genuine faults in the movies.But they might give that impression if they restrict their comments solely to those criticisms (genuinely held though they undoubtedly are).


In return, it could be said about, those "lot" who think the movies are perfect, that they are jumping on the Bandwagon!Hehe. I suppose it might be said that I have "jumped on the bandwagon", given that the films awakened my interest in Tolkien that had previously been dormant for some 20 years and prompted me to find this place. :D

[Turin]

Saucepan Man, (btw, i tried to put some smilies in but for some reason couldn't, so my comments were made in good jest) ;)

I have to say that, from my point of view, it gets rather monotonous when everyone has the same opinions about the movies, especially all the "positives".

My lack of positive comments comes from, not my dislike of the trilogy (I actually like them very much), but from the fact that others have already pretty much summed them up!

Hence, I like to play Devil's Advocate so that there is another perspective (though all of what I have said is true to how I really feel).

[Essex]

if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him. I find that if one looks hard enough (I'm not having a go here Boromir, and I agree with almost all you've said so far) you can find some seed in the book that PJ 'built' upon. The above is one. quote below is where Gandalf arrives at Rath Dinen and confronts DenethorBut Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.As you can see, there is something in the book about Gandalf 'striking' Denethor (I admit it isn't with his staff but with his hand)

PS Mr Saucepan - well said as usual! My cup is at the moment about 80-90% full, and no doubt on further viewings will rise towards 100%, especially when I hear the director and co's commentaries

[Boromir88]

Do you know where I can find that quote Essex? Not that I doubt you, just don't remember coming across that, I want to see if I've read that before or if I haven't. Since, I don't remember it. :) (I'm guessing it's in the Pyre of Denethor chapter?)

I still stick with what I've said. If only one of Denethor's servants (Beregond) goes against Denethor, either the others don't know he's mad, or are too afraid of the consequences, then I feel they would have done something to protect their lord. :)

Turin, I know how you feel. That's why I like posting early, to get everything I need out, instead of worrying about repeating, or rehashing what people have already said.

Edit: Before I forget, SpM, I viewed the movie again, the lines with Pippin and Gandalf out on the balcony are...

Pippin: But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something. (sees troubled face on Gandalf) Gandalf?
Gandalf: Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant, the one who will lead Mordor's armies, the one they say no living man can kill. The Witch-King of Angmar, you've met him before, he stabbed Frodo on Weathertop. He is the Lord of the Nazgul, deadliest of the nine, Minas Morgul is his lair.

[The Saucepan Man]

my comments were made in good jestAnd you can rest assured that they were taken as such.

Don't mind me. I just lurk around this forum and jump out grouchily every so often when I feel that the films are getting too much of a battering. :D

Although I most certainly don't regard the films as perfect - I have been known to criticise them myself on occasion (always validly and intelligently, of course ;) ).

I have to say that, from my point of view, it gets rather monotonous when everyone has the same opinions about the movies, especially all the "positives".Which is precisely how I feel about the negatives. And they seem to be the main talking point these days - certainly in comparison with when RotK first came out. Perhaps these films just lose their gloss for some people after a time. Or perhaps it is just that the negative points are easier to make.

Although I am quite surprised that there have been quite so many negative points made about the EE, given that it includes many of the scenes that caused so much disappointment by their omission with the release of the theatrical version. Perhaps expectations were a little high, particularly after the TTT EE, which did much to make amends for what was undoubtedly (for me) the weakest of the (film) trilogy.

In any event. I can't be that much of a fanboy, as I have had the EE for nearly a week and still haven't unwrapped it, let alone watched it. :rolleyes:

Edit: Thanks for providing the line, Boromir88. It does ring a bell now that you mention it. Of course, to be true to the book, Gandalf's line would have had to have been: "... the one they say no living man will kill."

[piosenniel]

Boromir88

‘The Pyre of Denethor’ is indeed where that quote comes from.

Here’s the scene:

For there were the servants of Denethor with swords and torches in their hands; but alone in the porch upon the topmost step stood Beregond, clad in the black and silver of the Guard; and he held the door against them. Two of them had already fallen to his sword, staining the hallows with their blood; and the others cursed him, calling him outlaw and traitor to his master.

Even as Gandalf and Pippin ran forward, they heard from within the house of the dead the voice of DEnethor crying: ‘Haste, haste! Do as I have bidden! Slay me this renegade! Or must I do it myself?’ Thereupon the door which Beregond held shut with his left hand was wrenched open, and there behind him stood the Lord of the City, tall and fell; a light like flame was in his eyes, and he held a drawn sword.

But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the coming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.

[Boromir88]

Ok I remember that, thanks Pio and Essex.

[Sapphire_Flame]

The 4% off comes from Denethor. I am very sad that he wasn't redeemed a bit more.

BUT! Other than that, I loved the new scenes. I thought the Mouth of Sauron was brilliant. His posture and facial... er, oral expressions were great. :p Although I am surprised by Aragorn beheading him! Although, I guess PJ had license; Tolkien never did say how Mouth died. *shrug*

Anyway, very good, loved the new stuff, and can't wait to listen to the cast commentary (Gollum and Smeagol! Yay!).

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy, in a hurry ~

[Garen LiLorian]

He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.
Huh. Now, maybe I'm missing something, but I never got Gandalf striking Denethor out of that. Isn't the "very stroke" Denethor striking at Beregond?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke,"

Actually, my reading is that "the very stroke" is the moving of the hand
upwards, not its hitting Denethor.
=======================

As for criticism seeming to be mostly negative, I think that's because it's
harder to write positive views on just about anything (other then gushing
about how nice something is) as opposed to analysing relative failings.
Witness the greater frequency of sports talk radio activity when teams are
going badly as opposed to successful.

For my part, when the films were first reported, I expected them to have a
"grade" of about "D", whereas I'd give them an overall grade of B-, with
FOTR being the best, and scenary and actor selections rating even higher.

Perhaps, changing my original views, the best PJ change was FOTR
XenaArwen, it does make movie sense, and her meeting Aragorn as he finds
Ethelas was the sexiest bit in the movies. Now if only they had cut her line:
"if you want him...." and had Frodo say:
"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me."
(Oh, well).

[Guinevere]

I'm sorry I sounded so negative - it's probably just as Saucepanman said
my expectations were too high - hence the disappointment!
I think the music, the scenery, (landscape, buildings, costumes, weapons, everything to the last detail) were just perfect, the actors were (nearly) all "right" for me too (which is a big exception for me!) and by FotR I was so enchanted that I forgot that I sat in the cinema, and I went to see it 5 times! Of course I had hoped the enchantment would continue with TTT and RotK, but there were so many drastic changes, especially of the characters, that for me, the charm didn't work any more. In RotK especially the scenes changed so quickly and every time I was really moved, there followed something that caused disbelief and put me out in the primary world again. Not even "the willing suspense of disbelief" worked. Just because there is so much I like, I grieve at the changes that spoil the film for me. I guess I just know and love the books all too well by now!

[Enorëiel]

I must admit that for some reason I was expecting a bit more from EE.... Not to say that EE isn't really great - cuz it is! But it seems like it was missing something...

Anyways! The added stuff was amazing. I was so glad to see The House of Healing (even if it was so short) and to see Gandalf and The Witch King, The mouth of Sauron (Sorry... but did anyone else crack up at Aragorn's espression after TMOS 'smiles'? *Snork* I bust a gut!) and especially in the Company of Orcs. It was so nice to see more depth to some things.

As always, the EE really gave more feeling to some parts of the movie and explained certain things (- Ah - so that's why Gandalf didn't have his staff at the Pyre of Denethor...). However, I still wish most of this stuff was just included in the regular version rather than the EE... It would have helped some of my friends understand certain things, cuz heck - let's face it, many of the people who went to the theaters to see the movie aren't going to watch the EE version of it. It's mostly just us nuts who want to see certain scenes we missed from the books that weren't in the original movie. :D

But yeah, Overall I'd give it an 8 or 9. It was truly very brilliant!

~Enny~

[Bungo Baggins]

Since I was simply looking forward to new scenes I wasn't too picky. I am no middle earth expert yet so I really can't compare some details to my knowledge of the books. I will say, though, I liked the mouth of Sauraon (creepy) and the scene with Saruman, simply because I wanted to see Christopher Lee one last time in the film. I also loved the extended Path of the Dead sequence and the extended Gandalf and Pippin scene. The drinking contest seemed like it was tryin to hard to be funny and was out of place.

[Rochelle]

Now, regardless to the fact if it was in the books or not, I thought that the added scene with Eomer finding Eowyn on the field absolutely amazing. The anguish in Karl Urbans face when he held her was how I would imagine I would feel/look if I found my sister like that.

The mouth of Sauron was hysterical in my opinion. That wide, toothy grin was something that's for sure. I wasn't quite sure if it was grinning to be spiteful or if that's the natural position of the mouth! *lol*

I was still holding out hope that one of my favorite lines would be completed in the extended edition, but alas, it wasn't. It was when Sam realized that Frodo hadn't been killed by Shelob. In the movie, all he says is "Samwise, you fool." In the book he goes into a more heartfelt line of "Samwise you fool, he wasn't dead and your heart knew it" ...For all the detail Sean Astin goes into to try and be like Samwise in the novel, I would have really liked to see that as one of those minor adjustments. *shrugs* oh well, I've got my books that have it down PERFECT!

All in all...loved the extended edition scenes. I haven't watched all the extra features, but I did manage to watch the dedication to Cameron Duncan. I cried, it was beautifully done.

[Kransha]

Well, well, it's been more'n week since I've even posted on the Downs! Dreadful! I must recoup my losses...The holiday season obviously has its downsides (O accursed St. Nicholas, how dare you distract me with baubles and gift wrap!)

Since I made vehement points about the EE on other occasions, I thought it'd be fitting for me to return, in good spirits, with my newly purchased copy of the Extended Edition, and report.

Many of you may know that Saruman and Grima Wormtongue are two of my favorite characters in The Lord of the Rings, nay, in all of Tolkien's works.

You may be surprised, then, to learn that I loved the added "Voice of Saruman" sequence.

Christopher Lee is magnificent as usual, and I have only two minor gripes. Far more good points to make then bad. The editing was sketchy, for one. Saruman popping up worked, because he is supposed to be crafty, and that implies a certain wizardly stealth, but when Saruman was dead and the camera cut back to Treebeard, it didn't work as well. Also, Saruman's actual "fall" was melodromatic with the amount of spinning that plummeting Maia carcass did. Would've been a bit more realistic if he just fell, and more weighty as well. Those are my only annoyances about the scene. The whispering of characters seemed reasonable to me. Firstly, it is explained that none of the actors realized how high up Saruman was, so their confusion is understandable.

Saruman's voice was perfectly melodious and sinister. When I heard Lee utter those fabulous words ("Gibbets and crows! Dotard!") I felt a surge of joy. I knew the whole speech would not be there, but I knew that its feeling was, and that was good enough. It is the feeling of that near-multiple-personality tirade of Saruman's that is essential. The voice was sickeningly sweet and tempting, tantalizing, and Theoden, despite other comments, seemed momentarily tempted by the prospect of alliance. Also as an added bonus, Grima was well-killed: swift arrow, a gasp or two, silence. And, finally, I found a bit of amusement and interest in hearing about Saruman's accurate delivery of his post-mortem grunt (C. Lee explains, in the 'Cameras in M-E' Documentary, that he had some clandestine knowledge of what sound a person made when a person was stabbed in the back multiple times).

The additions contributed to Legolas and Gimli were also interesting, considering the fact that, as is revealed, John Rhys-Davies actually ad-libbed all those corny/cheesy lines of Gimli's. This, I think, is a redeeming trait. It's not easy to create a line in context that is funny enough to still cause a chorus of laughter in global theaters. Kudos to the Dwarf! Similarly, I found little wrong with the drinking game, although it did not strike my humerus, as did some other Dwarven prodigies. I liked the Corsair bit, although the corsair captain's lines sounded even more modern than most of Legolas and Gimli's pop-culture jokes (do people in Middle-Earth really say "You and what army"?).

Denethor was not redeemed, he was explored, and I liked that - a lot. I thought that the EE added quite a bit to Denethor. His conversation with Faramir was average, but the single addition of his few lines during "The Pyre of Denethor" were enlightening in some respect. In the moment before he casts the torch, to sow his own doom, upon the fire, he did give some insight into his reasons and his madness (in essence, summing up a lot of thoughts that the book-verse palantir shoved into his weakened mind). John Noble, during the commentaries and documentaries, does speak about the palantir at length, which means that it was not forgotten...nor was it, really, left out of Denethor's character. I still think that the movie's depiction of him is slanderous to a great character, but I smile to know that some of my love for Denethor as a character is shared, and that PJ did understand that this was not a villain, not an abusive cad, but a fallen monarch...

[Dûrbelethwen]

My parents are having us watch it about an hour a night since it is so long, so I have not finished it yet (Maybe tonight). But I have some questions
1. Does anyone know what happened to the elven army who were at Helm's Deep? They could not all have died, I doubt that they would have left before the final defeat of Sauron. But they did not seem to be around at Edoras or anywhere in the Return of the King.
2. Did Gimli bumb Legolas's bow on purpose during the Corsairs scene? I noticed the camera focused on that fact.
3. Did the Evenstar pendant break in the scene with the palantir? It looked like it did and it did not look like Aragorn was wearing it in the next scene where they were on their way to Mordor.
If anyone is wondering we stopped it right after the palantir scene but had not stopped it before seeing Aragorn.

[Boromir88]

They could not all have died
I think they actually did all die. If you look in TTT, when they are stuck in the Hornburg, and Theoden decides to ride out, I don't believe there are any elves there except Legolas. I think the others are Theoden, Gamling, Aragorn, Legolas, A rohan standard bearer, and some other Rohan people.

[Sapphire_Flame]

Ah, Kransha, well said! :D

The mouth of Sauron was hysterical in my opinion. That wide, toothy grin was something that's for sure. I wasn't quite sure if it was grinning to be spiteful or if that's the natural position of the mouth! *lol*
I really liked how his mouth moved, actually. It pulled your attention there, which is where it should be. Mouth of Sauron, gettit? ;) I really liked his mannerisms in the film; I believe the way he was to be played was that he was basically a puppet (maybe dead at that point?) being controlled by Sauron. The jerkiness of his movements really helped to give that impression.

2. Did Gimli bumb Legolas's bow on purpose during the Corsairs scene? I noticed the camera focused on that fact.
That definitely seemed to be the case! :D I thought that was really clever; if Legolas doesn't want to hit something, he doesn't. It's a funny excuse for the shot to go awry. I know a few people are a little annoyed by that, but just remember, PJ is the corsair being shot! ^_~

(Just kidding, PJ! You're wonderful, really! *hugs*)

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[ElanorGamgee]

I’m afraid that this extended edition was more of a disappointment than a treat for me. There were a few scenes that I really enjoyed, but I felt like I was waiting around for hours for certain scenes that never came.

Favorite additions:

- The statue of the king at the crossroads that is “re-crowned.” Very beautiful.

- Gandalf’s brief history lesson concerning Númenor, including allusions to the fall of the Númenórians and their culture of death as described in The Silmarillion.

- Saruman’s quote about “brigand’s brats who roll on the floor with the dogs” (sorry, don’t have a book handy to look up the exact quote). Makes me laugh :-P

Problems:

- My major disappointment was with the portrayal and treatment of the Mouth of Sauron. First of all, he didn’t scare me; he was just disgusting. He wasn’t portrayed as a twisted, lost man (which would have be a hundred times more eerie), but as a specialized orc. More importantly, Aragorn’s sudden and relatively unprovoked beheading of the MoS was barbaric. It was an unnecessarily violent and thoughtless action that added nothing to the plot and was certainly not indicative of kingly, noble character. That Jackson could derive such a scene from a source text that emphasizes mercy and fair play on the part of the protagonists puzzles me.

- I was looking forward to the Houses of Healing and a developed relationship between Faramir and Éowyn, but the extra scenes were only tantalizing, not satisfying in the least. The developing love between Faramir and Éowyn was shown so briefly that it may have been better to leave it out altogether. It suggests that Éowyn, knowing that she couldn’t have Aragorn, settled for the next handsome man. Very poor character development.

- This may just be a personal peeve, but what was the point of having Éomer tell Éowyn that battle was man’s domain? To further develop a feminist theme simply not present in the original work? Probably so. Nonetheless, I did not appreciate the point being made at his expense, as if to make a bigot out of one of Tolkien’s greatest heroic figures (not in the sense that his statement is necessarily a bigoted one, but in that it is meant to be interpreted as incorrect and chauvanistic). I am a woman, but that doesn’t mean I need a pep talk at every movie I go to. I love Éowyn as a woman who is fighting for her people and for renown, fighting as a person, not as a cause.

- Why does Gandalf have to order everything “into the abyss?” That phrase seems a bit overused (if not melodramatic). His staff being shattered was simply awful. It draws ties to Saruman that are less than flattering. And I can’t imagine Tolkien’s Gandalf ever being knocked over like an old man, no matter how fearsome the foe, and certainly not because some flying reptile screamed at him.

- I understand why Jackson left out the Shire at the end, and I almost liked his version of Sharkey’s End. Right up until he fell off Orthanc and landed on that spike. That was just gruesome. Rather poor taste if you ask me.

- What was up with the avalanche of skulls in the paths of the dead? Major overkill. Does Jackson realize how many people those skulls would add up to?

- And finally (probably to your relief ;))…enough with the Gimli slapstick! Sheesh.


In conclusion, it seems to me that Mr. Jackson still hasn’t gotten past his horror, B-rated genre days. LotR probably helped him get out of the rut, but he’s still too wrapped up in gross-out and shock-and-awe scenes for their own sake to truly, in my opinion, do justice to a work like LotR. A little subtlety can go a long way. Don’t get me wrong: I’ve enjoyed these movies, but in the end I find my admiration waning under disappointments that just kept piling up.

[Iaurhirwen]

After watching it last night I have found that I give the movie a 9.5 out of 10.

The scene with Saruman and Grima at the Orthanc I really enjoyed. You can really tell that Saruman is one of us ;) with the awsome performance that he puts out. To me, he just embodies what I envisioned in my own mind of what Saruman would be like. As to the question posed as to why Legolas shot Grima who was in the process of "offing" Saruman, it is because he was killing Saruman and they wanted him alive so that they could get more information out of him. Even though the scene in the Shire was not there, Saruman's death was a nice replacement for that.

But what I feel aided the movie most of all where the little scenes that were extended/added to the theatrical version. The additional interaction with Faramir and Denethor where some of the saddest moments in the movie, even though I didn't like the development of Denethor's character. They still made the movie so much more special to me. The additional scenes with Pippin and Faramir and Gandalf were really touching. And Merry offering his sword to Theoden is one of may favorite scenes.

Me, being the crazy person that I am, watched the entire movie, including the credits and the insanely long list of members of the fanclub. Towards the end of the credits there is a statement thanking all the people that made the movie possible, or something along those lines. And then there follows some lines written in another language. I'm not sure if it is Elvish or not. If it is, its not any that I can recognize. The quote goes as follows:
Me Mahara Tonu Tatou Nga Uri-Apakura No Tuanuku Nei,
No te Waoto, te tu kekehua ana o nga Eldarin kua Hohou mai i te Uri-Moaka

Of course, we can all recognize the word Eldarin, but I am curious as to the actual meaning of the phrase. To me, it reminds me more of Japanese than of Elvish, but what do I know. I believe that I got the quote correct, I could never pause the DVD in the right place so the image was always a little blurry. Any ideas as to the meaning???? :confused:

[HCIsland]

[QUOTE=Boromir88]The thing that gets me mad is Gandalf using the Steward as a punching bag, if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him. [QUOTE]

But it got such a cheer, at least from the audience I was with. Don't take this the wrong way, but if I directed a movie that got that kind of reaction from an audience, I would know I did it right.

I know I'm come across as a PJ fanatic at times, but I am not. I'm a great fan of the trilogy and, although King was my favourite film of last year, neither Towers nor Fellowship were of the years before. I don't think that it would have been a colossal oversight on the part of the Academy not to give Best Picture to King (they have numerous previous blunders that are larger) and would have been happy to see it go to Lost in Translation, an equally deserving film, though so different to be completely incomparable.

Nor do I think Jackson is the world's greatest working director, though he is a talent to be sure. I find each of his films are injected with a sense of raw fun that is sorely missing from almost all Hollywood blockbusters for quite some time. Is he over the top at times? Certainly yes, but there is such a lack of pomposity that I don't really mind. I would take Jackson over a dozen of these paint-by-number directors that currently make most of our summer brain candy. In fact, I would argue that his film Heavenly Creatures demonstrates a deft and a talent for creating simply but haunting images (the mother's murder from that film is still with me).

When I first heard that these movies were to be made I tried to keep my expectations under control, but these films turned out to be far better than I could have reasonable expected. I never expected Citizen Kane, but I think these films stand head and shoulders above anything else that has been produced in this genre in a long, long time. Certainly, there are things I would like to see tweaked, and I don't mind talking about them, but I find dwelling them beyond all the things that were done so well to be rather silly.

Anyway, on to my thoughts on the added scenes. On the whole I find them on much the same level as the extended versions of the other two films (I'm not, as a whole, much of a fan of extended cuts). Some scenes I love, some I could do without. I posted what I thought of the scenes on my Journal at Rotten Tomatoes, so if people don't mind, I'll paste them here.

The Voice of Saruman (A+): Absolutely marvelous! I was worried a bit about this scene, especially after seeing a production shot quite some time ago of Saruman impaled on one of those spikey wheels, but my worries were groundless. Lee was great, originally emerging consolatory but then spitting venom when he realizes that isn't going to work. There is some really nice dialogue here (much of which comes straight from the book) including Saruman telling Theoden that he is a lesser king than the ones that came before, which plays very well into later events with this character. I thought moving the deaths of Saruman and Wormtongue from The Shire to Isengard worked very well. I'm not exactly sure how one can have a conversation with someone who's about 300 feet in the air, but Saruman's tumble more than made up for that little issue. I really liked Jackson's touch of having Saruman slowly disappearing below the water as well. Very nice!

Gimli's & Legolas' Drinking Game (B): This one worked for me. Although sometimes I think John Rees Davies' Gimli gets a little too silly (especially in the extended scenes) this wasn't one of them. Gimli turns out to be rather desturbing when drunk. "Swimming with hairy women"? Very weird, but what really made this scene worked is that it provided the mirth for the return to Edoras scenes, allowing Jackson to insert a change into Merry's and Pippin's song showing that the palantir is every present on Pippin's mind.

Eowyn's Dream (B+): In the book this dream was given to Faramir and it is interesting how the same words can now have such a different meaning. In the book it is Faramir remembering the destruction of Numenor, connecting this character to something more noble from the past. For Eowyn it is metephor for her despair and her inability to see the light of hope and happiness coming from behind her. I liked it.

Pippin's Departure (A-): There is some nice dialogue from Merry to Aragorn as they watch Gandalf and Pippin ride off, where he expresses his concerns and laments about being seperated from Pippin. It was the first extra bit that I wondered if it would have been better in the theatrical cut.

Minas Tirith (A): I like the lines of Theoden giving Gandalf crap for foolishly sending The Ring into Mordor. Saruman has some lines to this effect directed at Gandalf too, and I like these scenes that cast some doubt onto Gandalf's plans.

The Decline of Gondor (A): Nice little history lesson here with some extra great shots of the city.

Cross-roads of the Fallen King (C): These scene is very much as it is described in the book but it doesn't feel in it's right place here. Likely it would have worked better earlier in the film, but I don't think that fits there either. It's a nice little scene, but I think it's better off not being there.

Sam's Warning (C-): A superfluous scene of Sam warning Gollum that he'll be watching him and Frodo catching the tail end of the conversation. Of course, this is working towards Frodo eventually sending Sam off, but I don't think that needs any more scenes to support.

Invasion of Osgiliath (C+): An extra scene of the orcs shooting a guard from a tower as they cross the river which only begs the question, how can the orcs spot a guard in an unlit tower window when that same guard has touble seeing a fleet of torch lit barges coming his way? This begs the further question, if you were sneaking across a river, why would you light your barges with torches? There is some extra dialogue between Faramir and his second in command (I can't remember his name) which works as that guy gets killed fairly soon. The extra scenes are okay, but nothing to go on about.

Merry Pledging to Theoden (B): Another nice little scene. We need more Merry but I can understand why, in the theatrical cut, we need to stay with the more major characters which are Frodo and Aragorn. There's also a bit with Merry struggling to get his pony going and Legolas talking of battles coming to other areas of Middle Earth.

The Wizard's Pupil (A+): An extra scene where Denethor berates Faramir for not bringing The Ring to him. This scene also has a powerful moment where Denethor has a delusion of Boromir being in the room. The scene works exrtremely well at expressing the relationship between Faramir and Denethor, as well Denethor insanity. Very well acted by John Noble and executed by Jackson. In my opinion, this is a best of the added scenes.

Peregrin of the Tower Guard (A): Very nice scene between Pippin and Faramir, connected these two characters together and further allowing us to understand the change in character of Pippin when he resues Faramir from Denethor's Pyre.

Marshalling at Dunharrow (D+): There are some extra lines from Eomer telling Eowyn that war is the domain for men. He is speaking as to why Merry (a hobbit) should not come to Minas Tirith, but we know the second meaning behind the line. Personally, I think the conversation was better when it ended with Eowyn's line, "why can't he fight for those he loves". The way it is in the extended cut, it almost seems that Eowyn's decision to ride with the Rohirrim is in reaction to Eomer. "Oh yeah, I'll show you big brother."

Aragorn Takes the Paths of the Dead (A): Aragorn's last line to Eowyn is now, "I've wished you joy since first I saw you", which works so well now that we will be getting a resolution to Eowyn's story.

Dwimorberg-The Haunted Mountain (C+): There is also some extra lines in the Legolas history lesson which, I suppose, makes the paths seem creepier.

Paths of the Dead (C-): Both good and bad in here. I like the extra scenes of Legolas describing the dead following them and Gimli getting more and more afraid, though Gimli's antics get a little too silly. We then get treated to the avalanche of skulls which chases our heros out the other side. After, it seems that Aragorn failed in getting the Dead to follow but then the King of the Dead emerges saying, "We'll fight". I'm neither here nor there about the scenes themselves but personally, I thought the it worked much better ending as it did in the theatrical cut, where it is left unsaid whether Aragorn succeeded or not.

The Siege of Gondor (A-): There are extra scenes building up to the appearance of Grond, the huge battering ram. The scenes include shots of orcs using a smaller battering ram that is completely ineffective against the gates. This does bring up the question, if you have this huge battering ram which is obviously built specifically for this purpose, wouldn't you have brought used it right away in the first place? Either way, the scenes work well for the DVD because Grond's appearance marks the end of the first disk and it makes it really feel like an end of a part 1.

The Corsairs of Umbar (B): Okay, this scene got a giggle out of me. I figure if you are going to let the audience know that the Dead are going to fight for Aragorn, you should be giving us them attacking the Corsairs. I'm fine with this little bit.

Merry's Simple Courage (A): Nice scene between Merry and Eowyn which really works to show Eowyn seeing some light in the tunnel that she is in.

The Tomb of the Stewards (A): Some good extra dialogue from Denethor showing his state of mind a little more clearly. There is also a neat shot of a single blossom blooming on The White Tree.

The Witch King's Hour (C-): The shot of Gandalf confronting the Witch King was featured prominently in the original trailers for the film, and it looked gorgeous, and the truth is, it is. There is nothing wrong with the scene itself but it is a classic example of how a good scene does not necessarily mean it makes the movie better. The arrival of the Rohirrim is much better in the theatrical cut. The whole city appear lost. Gandalf is yelling, "fight to the last man," and then the horns sound. We get Theoden's great speech, they charge and then we get Pippin finding Gandalf, the two ride off to rescue Faramir and we cut back to the charging Rohirrim. There is just so much energy on the screen this way. The Witch King scene forces this to be changed and the result is a far less dynamic presentation of the events that are unfolding. The whole is not always the sum of it's pieces.

The Pyre of Denethor (A): One extra line from Denethor before he drops the torch: "You may triumph on the field of battle for a day, but against the power that has risen in the east there is no victory". I really like it.

The Battle of Pelenor Fields (C-): Some extra fighting shots which do little to add to the development of the battle and merely make it longer (like it wasn't already plenty long). Better moments include Merry having a nice kill and Theoden seemingly catching a glimps of Eowyn just before the Witch King attacks.

Victory at Minas Tirith (D-): There is a silly extra scene where the wounded Gothmog (the Elephant Man like orc commander) is closing in on the wounded Eowyn only to be cut down by Aragorn and Gimli steamroller. Pretty dumb and better being absent.

The Houses of Healing (B): Nice scene of Eomer finding Eowyn followed by a short montage of Aragorn healing Eowyn and her rising and seeing Faramir. I know purists will balk at this one, but considering the time constraints (even in a 4 hour plus film) I thought they did a nice job. The thing to remember is that they never shot this stuff intending there to be an extended cut of the film. This was shot because they felt they may be able to get it into the theatrical cut, and thus they knew there wouldn't be the time to do anything like what was in the book. My one complaint about the scene is that someone who has not read the book would be left pretty confused as to why Eowyn was so sick. The movie never provides a reason.

Pippin Finds Merry (B-): The scene is shifted to the night time (oh, those tricky colour graders). Nothing wrong with the scene, but by this point the extra minutes are starting to add up. We need to get back to Frodo and Sam.

Aragorn & The Palantir (A): Nice scene which really shows how Aragorn is drawing Sauron away from Frodo and Sam. I like the inclusion of the dieing Arwen. That palantir is a nasty machine!

Faramir & Eowyn (A-): The scene is fine and works to give a conclusion to Eowyn, which was certainly missing from the theatrical cut. Even though this scene is short, you can really feel how it detracts from what was going on with Frodo and Sam and at the Black Gate. Tolkien himself moved the scene until after the climax at Mount Doom, which works much better, but Jackson didn't have the same kind of freedom when it comes to nonlinear story telling.

In the Company of Orcs (D): Tolkien had this scene because he needed to have something happen to Frodo and Sam as they crossed Gorgoroth. This film doesn't need it as it serves no real purpose. It's done fine enough, it just doesn't seem to have a point.

The Land of Shadow (C+): There is an extra, brief scene of Frodo and Sam throwing away their gear, but it doesn't seem to carry the same weight as it does in the book. On extra shot of Sam looking longingly at his cooking gear before he throws it into the fisure would have been enough for me.

The Mouth of Sauron (A-): I think The Mouth was one of their best bits of design in the whole trilogy. This guy creeps me out. I think Aragorn decapitating him is a bit much (and not very statesman like at that). Sending him off with his tail between his legs as it happens in the book would have been better, but I like how it sets up their despair over thinking that Frodo is dead.

H.C.

[HCIsland]

This is something fun I figured out just today.

I added up the total times of the three extended editions (without the closing credits) and they almost perfectly make sixteen, standard, one hour (ie. 44 minutes) television episodes. I even took some time to work out where the breaks in the episodes would be and most of them worked out fairly well.

So, who has those network connections? :D

H.C.

[Elennar Starfire]

I loved it! And...TWO easter eggs! :D I've only found one each on FotR and TTT...

[Iaurhirwen]

Oooh, where are the easter eggs???? I can't even find any in FOTR and TTT, even though I know where to look :(

[HCIsland]

The Easter Eggs are hidden in much the same way as on the other extended editions, so if you were unsuccessful before I'm not sure this will help.

Aren't there some contries that don't have them on? I'm seem to recall hearing that they (or some) weren't there in the UK.

Number 1: Disk 1 -> Select a Scene -> go to the numbers on the left and select 33-36 -> scroll down to 36. The Siege of Gonder but don't select, just press down one more time and a gold ring should appear at the bottom of the screen. Now press Enter.

This is a very funny fake interview by Dom Monighan with Elijah Wood.

Number 2: Basically do the exact same thing but on disk 2. This one is a not quite as funny, but still entertaining fake pitch to Peter Jackson to create a sequel.

H.C.

[Boromir88]

HCI
But it got such a cheer, at least from the audience I was with. Don't take this the wrong way, but if I directed a movie that got that kind of reaction from an audience, I would know I did it right.
Same happened to the theatres I went to. ;) I undertsand why PJ had the Steward punching bag, just don't agree with it.
The Pyre of Denethor (A): One extra line from Denethor before he drops the torch: "You may triumph on the field of battle for a day, but against the power that has risen in the east there is no victory". I really like it.
Yes, that is a great line, and eventhough they didn't show Denethor with the Palantir, that is a hint he had it.

[HCIsland]

Yes, that is a great line, and eventhough they didn't show Denethor with the Palantir, that is a hint he had it.
Yeah, I was hoping to see a bit of the Minas Tirith palantir as well but you would have had to invest some time to make sure it didn't get confused with the Orthanc stone.

Imagine if all of a sudden Denethor just pulled it out, the first reaction from the audience would be questions like, "how'd he get that from Gandalf?". You could establish that they were different (different colours maybe), but then you would have to provide some history as to why there were more than one and how they were distributed. A wizard having a "crystal ball" is something an audience will take without explanation, but when you give one to someone else you have to then get into how he has it.

I would guess the questions Jackson and company have to ask themselves are one, how much time should we devote to a explaining secondary character and two, do we really need to have the second palantir in the film to explain events. Denethor is one of my favourite (if not the favourite) character from the book. I find him so tragic and I love how his own father shuned him in favour of another (ironically Aragorn himself in the guise of Thorongil) and now Denethor cowed by the images from the palantir is doomed treat his own son in the same way.

Obviously, all this (and more) couldn't be brought in so they decided to just take the angle that the eldest son was the favourite of Denethor and that his death has pushed him over the edge - which isn't entirely untrue. This renders the second palantir as a needless complication. This simplifies and over vilifies Denethor but I do believe that the time and energy that would have had to be put into portraying this character with the depth he has would have been prohibitive. In the end, I'm happy with Denethor's portrayal mostly because I loved John Noble's performance and I thought that feeling of despair (which I think is the most important thing to get across) was presented very well, especially with the extended scenes.

By the way, I always took the line, "do you think the eyes of the White Tower are blind", to be another reference to the Minas Tirith Palantir.

H.C.

[HCIsland]

Same happened to the theatres I went to. ;) I undertsand why PJ had the Steward punching bag, just don't agree with it.
I hear you. It got an eye roll from me as well, but probably a smile too.

H.C.

[alatar]

I preferred the book version where the MOS rode off to a destiny unknown. It mirrors the Morgoth/Sauron relationship/ending, and it leaves a higher lever bad guy for Aragorn's progeny to deal with in the Fourth age. This is probably obvious, but I see Tolkien writing a 'history' that leads to our modern day world, and so in each age we get further away from the 'magical' beings - orcs becoming more 'mannish,' the disappearance or absorption of the little folk, etc.

Also, I agree that Aragorn beheading the MOS is out of character and more of a time saver for the film.

[Guinevere]

About those mysterious lines at the end of the credits, thanking all the people that made the movie possible:
Originally posted by Iaurhirwen:

Me Mahara Tonu Tatou Nga Uri-Apakura No Tuanuku Nei,
No te Waoto, te tu kekehua ana o nga Eldarin kua Hohou mai i te Uri-Moaka

Of course, we can all recognize the word Eldarin, but I am curious as to the actual meaning of the phrase. To me, it reminds me more of Japanese than of Elvish, but what do I know. I believe that I got the quote correct, I could never pause the DVD in the right place so the image was always a little blurry. Any ideas as to the meaning????

My guess is that this language could be Maori (the language of the native people of New Zealand) because it was mentioned somewhere in the appendices that there were Maori people working as statists, and even a chorus of Maori somewhere, if I remember rightly.(In Moria I believe)

[Evisse the Blue]

The extra scenes in ROTk and the additions to the old scenes, seemed...rushed, for lack of a better term. There was no enrichment added to the story, although there were notable exceptions, some of them being the scene where Gandalf talks about Minas Tirith and its kings (originally Faramir's lines), the Crossroads scene, the Merry - Eowyn interaction on the way to Gondor (I really loved that scene). But all in all, these new scenes were short or dissapointingly short (Houses of Healing scene, the Faramir-Eowyn scene).

And my least favourite scene -and I guess nobody will argue with that is Aragorn killing off the Mouth of Sauron. That is just so senseless and stupid, in doesn't make any sense, no matter the context you'd want to put it in. There is nothing redeemable about that hollywoodian out-of-character (for Aragorn) scene. That really makes me mad, and I'll never get tired of criticising the guts out of that scene and other bad scenes like that one. Because that scene spoils the following scene for me as well, especially the For Frodo bit. It sounds like revenge now, like yea 'let's kick their butts for doing this to us", not like noble sacrifice.

I wouldn't mind those bad scenes if everything else was as bad or mediocre. But I know that PJ and team can better that, I've seen what they can do. They can do wonderful, in character scenes, even if they don't always go by the book. And in this case, such blatant disregard for a character's personality and esentially for the values the good guys stand for (A messanger is never killed - that is one of the unwritten rules of old that someone would expect Sauron to break but never Aragorn) is inexcusable. Compare this with the dignified attitude that so humiliates the Mouth of Sauron and makes him retreat, defeated, from the book.

The bad scenes muddy the good scenes too, you can't just overlook them.
Imagine for instance, listening to a song of your favourite band and hearing in the background among the sounds you love, 'oops I did it again' or something like that. :D

[mark12_30]

I thought the exchange between Faramir and Pippin about Pippin's armor contributed a great deal, and made Pippin's awareness of and participation in the rest of Faramir's story make sense.

In the book, it's Gandalf who retrieves Faramir from the burning bier; in the movie it's Pippin-- why? MoviePip's sense that he was wearing Faramir's past makes it more believable.

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

Me mahara tonu tatou nga Uri-apakura no tuanuku nei, no te waotu, te tu kekehua ana o nga eldarin kua hohou mai i te uru-moana

TRANSLATION:
Let us dedicate our memories to the spirits of the Eldar who came to us from the Ocean that lies to the West.

guinevere you are right it is in Maori.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well I liked them all, with the exception of the silly skull avalanche. :rolleyes:

[Kitanna]

The worst part about EE is now I have nothing to look forward to moviewise. :(
All in all it was great, some have said the scenes don't flow well in some parts, but even so the added scenes were great. My biggest beef was Aragorn taking off the head of the Mouth of Sauron. The man just cannot keep that sword to himself. My second biggest beef was Faramir and Eowyn's story. I was so glad it was put in, but it's not enough for me. I want to see more of them! But the scene with them was real sweet.
The best added scene for me was Eomer finding Eowyn on the battlefield. Karl Urban's performance made me cry. All in all this EE was my favorite.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I finally saw it. I must admit that I am, as usual, rather casually sitting on the fence as regards positives and negatives. Indeed, I have rated several of the posts on this thread, some very different in opinion to others. I'll comment on a few things, although I get the feeling I'm pretty much repeating what others have said.

Pippin/Faramir scene - Love it. My favourite added part without question.

Saruman - Really liked the dialogue betwixt Saruman and Theoden. I also was not too upset by Legolas' involvement in the death of Grima. Not too bad.

Mouth of Sauron - He, I liked. Loved the way he moved, the style of words he used. Also agree that Aragorn should have chastised him rather than beheaded him.


What I am most disappointed with was the final outcome of the battle of Pelennor fields. I had slight hope that they would shake things up a bit and make it all fit in more comfortably. Why, oh why, could they not have had Theoden's death, Eowyn's injury, and Eomer's wrath like it was supposed to be. I guess this isn't really anything to do with the Extended DVD but I still had a little bit of hope.

Also, there were quite a few silly little things that really should not have been there. Drinking game, the attempt at blowing away the ghosts (pardon the word-choice) and the river of skulls.

The skulls really confused me. It appeared as if the Ghosts were trying to kill the Three Heroes, and then moments later they agreed to join forces with them.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

At last I have watched the EE so many times that I'm ready to share a few thoughts about it. First and foremost I think there could have been much more enhanced (or completely new) scenes. Now that I've watched the extras and heard that they were going to put a little "what happened to each member of the Fellowship" scene in it, I'm disappointed with the otherwise grand ending. That bothers me a bit since it's not just an ending for RotK but for the whole trilogy.

'Cause we all know that we are dealing with a master piece here, I might as well concentrate on the scenes I think to have some flaws ;)
The Mouth of Sauron...He looked perfect when the Black Gate opened and he rode out all by himself. But then. Why, oh why does he have to twitch like he had a little cramp in his neck. That together with his way to talk makes him look ridiculous rather than scary or eerie and spoils the mood. Of course Aragorn has to start swinging his brand new sword so rashly that he chopps MoS's head of. I think that a heir of great kings and a foster child of a mighty elf should know that one shouldn't toy with sharp items. There was absolutely nothing kingly or noble in the way he treated the messenger.

Phew! It felt good to let out some steem. Now I can start afresh a new rant about Eowyn fighting Gothmog. Well, actually, that scene doesn't irritate me that much. It's rather the scene where Eowyn draggs herself trying to escape from Gothmog. It's so wrong! The climax with the Witch King and Eowyn's and Theoden's heart-breaking farewell come crushing down when some deformed pink chunk starts chasing her. Then our beloved "Jack-of-all-trades" (aka Aragorn) and the official comic relief (that'd be Gimli) save the day and kill Gothmog in a quite brutal way. I expected the whole time that it would be Theoden who gets to kill him (due to the way things happened in the books) or then at least Eomer.

One thing I wondered about was why Gandalf seemed so grumpy in the scene where he and Pippin were discussing on the balcony though Pippin was clearly feeling uneasy about the coming battle. It's good that finally Gandalf puts his hand on Pippin's shoulder to comfort him. Maybe it's the movie makers' way to remind the viewers of wizards being subtle and quick to anger or what ever the original phrase was.

In spite of my quite negative post I enjoyed almost every new minute that was in the film. Wonderful parts were, to name a few, the House of Healing (how couldn't you just adore those two lovers!), Eomer finding Eowyn on the battle field (my eyes got teary) and the little scene between Pippin and Faramir concerning Pippin's new armor. I also liked the fact that Arwen's song made it to this extended cut. She has such a beautiful voice.
Altogether, cheers and happy times with your EEs'!

[Nurumaiel]

Overall, I enjoyed it very much. I was up late into the night watching it, and at the end I had a wonderfully satisfied feeling. However, I did have some disappointments. I'll mention only the scenes that had the greatest impact, so to speak, on me.

The greatest disappointment was the Voice of Saruman scene. The whole family was thrilled when we saw it was going to be in... the actors were so brilliant... they were delivering their lines beautifully, and it was if I were sitting within the pages of the battered old book I heard so long ago. But I'd heard rumours and when Grima pulled the knife I felt my heart sinking. I didn't even really care to watch what happened after that. I was quite speechless... I really feel that the scene was spoiled by the deaths of Saruman and Grima. I was completely shocked, too, that Christopher Lee had allowed them to get away with it. I was very glum about that. For one thing, it brings vividly back to mind that the Scouring is not included, and for a second, I really did not think it was well-done. I don't enjoy watching the deaths, and I think that they were absolutely awful, but as long as it was the Voice of Saruman, and not the Death, I loved it.

While the drinking contest between Legolas and Gimli wasn't from the book, it was great fun, and the little hobbit of the family thought Gimli immensely funny. My only disappointment was that Gimli didn't win.

The scene where Merry offers his allegience to Theoden was short, but very wonderful. He spoke just like a hobbit, without any fancy and flowerly lines, but his honesty and loyalty were absolutely grand. In just this brief little scene I recalled why Merry has been my favourite character since childhood.

Aside from the Grey Havens, the closest I came to weeping in this film was in the added scene of Denethor and Faramir. When Denethor stood, and his eyes filled with love and he said: "My son," I caught my breath in awe and hope... it was heartbreaking to see the look on Faramir's face when he realised that Denethor was not speaking to him. Brilliant, if sorrowful, scene.

However, to return to a disappointment, I did not particularly enjoy the confrontation between Gandalf and the Witchking. It bothered me that Gandalf was thrown from his horse and left in such a position of helplessness. It added to the wonderful feeling of hope that came when the Riders of Rohan arrived, but it bothered me nevertheless. I recall when first hearing the story as a child I was frightened for Gandalf. It seemed as though there were no hope for him, and that he would surely be destroyed by that awful Witchking. And yet I saw him in mind's eye, tall upon his steed, making a courageous stand despite a doom that looked him in the face... brave and noble, and full of kingly majesty. It was rather difficult to have this childhood vision shattered by the sight of Gandalf lying helplessly and almost weakly upon the ground. I was the reconciled to this, however, because earlier on Gandalf was that Gandalf I loved best, when he rode out, shining, to the aid of Faramir and his men. But the worst disappointment of the Witchking scene was when I realised that the cock would not crow. Of all parts in the book, that was what made my heart soar highest... when the cock crowed, heralding hope.

In part I agree with HCIsland about Gothmog, and I thought it was rather silly to show Gothmog's death, but I can't deny that whether there was a silence or not, everyone in the room felt like cheering. I would have preferred it most if he had not even been in the film... the only one who beats him in horridness, for me at least, is the Mouth of Sauron.

Oooh... the Mouth of Sauron. He was a truly annoying fellow. I've always detested him, ever since I knew of him. I suppose he's the Mouth of Sauron, so he won't do much besides talk, but I've always thought he talked a little too much. As for his unexpected end, I echo what dancing spawn of ungoliant said. Aragorn's actions were not kingly and noble. It was not pleasant to think that one of the first things he did when he placed at the head of his men, alongside the other leaders such as Eomer and Gandalf, was to cut off an enemy's head with not warning of any kind... it was even more disappointing that he seemed to lose his temper when the insults were directed towards him, rather than taking that swipe when Frodo and Gandalf were the targets of ill words. I do feel twinges of anger when I think of it, yet I'm not outraged as I should be, for I've always thought very highly of the nobility of Tolkien's characters. In all honesty, my thoughts were not: "Ah, Aragorn, you've ruined yourself!" when it happened, but rather: "Well, good! He was a detestable fellow anyway."

I've gotten slightly ahead of myself, and before I run along I want to go back and mention Faramir and Eowyn in the Houses of Healing. I thought it was wonderful. Two wonderfully happy people... but... why was it so awfully short? I've always thought that Faramir and Eowyn had some of the best lines in the book. I knew I wouldn't be able to see the beautiful moment where, atop the wall, their hair, black and gold, was mingled in the wind, because Faramir didn't have dark hair, but I had hoped for some of the gorgeous and breath-taking lines from the books. Nevertheless, I'm happy that we had some scene, however small, for them.

No matter how much I was disappointed, I can't feel any resentment after watching this movie. The Grey Havens reconciles me to absolutely everything... and almost wholly because of Sam. Bringing that to mind, I can say honestly that this was a brilliant movie... absolutely brilliant. I'll be watching it for years and years to come. I feel not even a twinge of sorrow that it's all over, and that no more films will be coming out, because, why, when I sit and begin to watch these films, it's starting all over again, just like it did years ago, and I've got all three of them to look forward to still.

[Boromir88]

I still don't know why people get upset about the death of Saruman, ah well, no one has to like the reasons for why they did what they did.

I will say Nurumaiel, I'll have to find the article again, but Chris Lee was quite angered about being pushed back to ROTK EE, he thought the scene belonged to TTT. (Which it did, but I guess PJ wanted to end on a high battle note).

[Gurthang]

I just watched it for the first time today! :D *jumps up and down with glee*

I agree entirely, Boromir. The scene with Saruman on Orthanc really cleared up a lot of loose ends to the plot. It should have been in TTT. At the least PJ could have put it into the first release of ROTK. Sadly, it was not, but I thought it was very good scene.

As for Saruman's death. It really wasn't that much different from the book. Only in a different place. Grima jumps on Saruman, and stabs him with a dagger. Grima gets shot with an arrow and also dies. That's not too much different, and since the Scouring of the Shire was not in the movies at all, they couldn't have done it there anyway.

But one thing that I really didn't like was the Witch-king breaking Gandalf's staff. I was just like :eek: :mad:.

[Encaitare]

where does the other penny go? ;)

Here are my thoughts on the EE, in no particular order, now that I finally gave in to temptation and watched it.

Although I dreaded the Saruman and Grima death scene, I actually enjoyed it. I think I would have preferred it if they'd been on the balcony, but that's my only gripe. Christopher Lee's acting was superb; I think he really nailed the Voice.

The king crowned with flowers, nice little addition.

The Denethor scenes... I'm mixed. I didn't care for him stumbling about and almost falling over his throne, but I did like his exchange with Faramir regarding the Ring. I did love some of his added lines, though, especially this one, so great I had to write it down: "Why do the fools fly? Better to die sooner than late... for die we must."

Gandalf's Gondorian 101 was a nice inclusion, giving some good background. Kudos to Ian McKellen for once more doing some exposition without making it awkward.

Eomer finding Eowyn on the battlefield was short but perfect. It makes me wonder if perhaps he knew a little more than everyone else, and if his remark about how war was for men was made with a bit more purpose, as though he was afraid she might try something. Mere speculation, of course.

One thing I really enjoyed was another very small point: when Eowyn and Theoden are fighting near each other, and Eowyn is really giving it her all. Theoden looks over at her in surprise and respect, no doubt wondering who this impassioned young soldier is.

The Mouth of Sauron. Hmm. I thought that he was almost comical in a sense, because where he was surely meant to be leering, he appeared to be offering a toothy, winning smile. His voice... I don't know, it just didn't seem right to me. Not hissy like I imagined it would be. I did love his armor, though, and also that of his horse. I want a helm like his. So, he was cool, but he wasn't "my" Mouth of Sauron.

The Houses of Healing -- sweet, but so short! I'm not sure I liked the song that was sung when Aragorn was taking care of Eowyn, but a couple more viewings will probably warm me up to it.

Gandalf vs. Witch King: a little bit disappointing, since Gandalf definitely got owned.

I liked Aragorn finally using the Palantir, but the title of the scene is "Aragorn Masters the Palantir." It seems like Sauron, in the end, won out by showing Aragorn a vision of the failing Arwen.

The Paths of the Dead were... interesting. I got postively giddy upon hearing Malbeth's prophecy, huzzah! Gimli blowing away the ghosts was funny, but perhaps should have been cut shorter. The cascade of skulls made absolutely no sense to me at first, and I was saying to myself, "What the fork... PJ, you've gone off the deep end." Then Aragorn and Friends emerged from the mountain, coming to the river. It seemed to me that perhaps the Dead were guiding them out, since the ships were fast approaching. Whether that's the intent or not is beyond me, but I think I'll stick with that idea to justify the sudden skull avalanche.

And last but certainly not least, Gothmog. We get to see him walk about a bit in the EE, and he's got this gimpy leg which makes me laugh. Now I can't stop thinking of him as Gimpy Gothmog, which I'm sure is the name the other orcs call him behind his back. He really had a miserable time of it, though. First he got beaten by Eowyn, then hacked apart by Gimli and Aragorn. You know, I was really hoping Eowyn would kill him, just because Aragorn is very sword-happy, as seen with the MoS and such. A little variety would have been nice there.

Despite my criticism I really did love it... but as noted earlier, by Essex, I believe, I don't know where the time went. The forty-something minutes were so spread out, I guess, that it didn't excite me like the other two EEs. Yet it was an amazing film, and I think that much of my criticism will vanish when I watch it a few more times.

[Boromir88]

Encaitare has me thinking of Gothmog. There are times when PJ does some trully wonderful stuff, and I think stands out as a director. For instance:

Eomer finding Eowyn, just the look on Karl Urban's face. :(

The interactions between Denethor, Boromir, and Faramir. Also, between Pippin/Gandalf, Faramir/Pippin, Boromir/Faramir...etc.

Sam's character in ROTK.

For a personal favorite, I love the connection PJ draws to Isildur and Frodo:

http://members.aol.com/Brumblepop/essays/essayimages/sn-smiles-sm.jpg
Look at the simularity in their faces. It's moments like this when I sit back, and say wow PJ, that was great.

Then there are just times when PJ sinks back to his C rated gore movie crap...

The meaningless beheading of MoS, and mutilation of Gothmog. There is absolutely no point in these two sequences except to add blood and gore.

[Encaitare]

Heh... glad you enjoyed my Gothmog comments, Boromir. Since he is on my mind as well, I found a quote of yours re. Gothmog which made me laugh... check my sig.

The pictures you posted reminded me of a point I forgot to make in my last post. when Gollum is strangling Frodo, Frodo says, "But you swore! You swore on the precious!" I noticed that when Frodo says "Precious," it sounds extremely Gollum-esque. That may just be because he can't breathe, but it was creepy to me all the same.

[Boromir88]

I noticed your sig after I posted. Thanks, I'm flattered :) .

Now, you've reminded me of something else, lol :p . Bilbo's little Gollumish speak in FOTR "It's mine, I found it, it came to me!" "My precious!" I love it.

[Gilthalion]

I rarely have opportunity to post these days, much less to read lengthy threads such as this, but I thought it worth reading and so I hope what I have to mention will be worth posting.

The VOICE OF SARUMAN scene sets up some of the character conflict that we see later in the film.

Gandalf's uncertainty and fear that he has sent Frodo to his doom makes better sense as a spirit of thought from Saruman. This also gives Aragorn more of an opportunity to take leadership.

Theoden's lack of faith in himself is also made keener by the spell of Saruman's voice.

This is a subtle effect that Gandalf warns of in the book, but is rather difficult to show in a movie. The EE of ROTK accomplishes this, though this kind of subtlety seems to have largely gone unnoticed. Kudos to Peter, Fran, and Phillipa for this effort.

[Nurumaiel]

As far as Saruman's death goes, while it slightly bothers me that his death was at the wrong time and place (aside from Orthanc, it was his back, too) merely because it wasn't 'bookish,' that is very nitpicky, and my main disgust is for what takes place after the stabbing. Firstly, the fact that Legolas shoots Grima is very bothersome. He didn't wait for any kind of consent from Gandalf, but notched his arrow and did what was, in my mind, completely not right. Secondly, Saruman's fall onto the spike was sickening, and completely unnecessary. It was necessary for him to be killed, certainly, but was it necessary for him to fall in such a way and then be lowered slowly into the water? Perhaps, as Boromir88 mentioned of the Mouth of Sauron's and Gothmog's deaths, it was merely to add more blood and gore?

By the way, Boromir88, I completely agree with your comment about Karl Urban's acting. Absolutely heart-rending. And speaking of good acting, I was discussing with some family members the new Denethor/Faramir scene, and I honestly think some of the best acting in all three films was in that scene. There can be no doubt cast that Denethor is really and truly going mad, but David Wenham's acting is what caught my attention most. When Denethor has his illusion of Boromir, the expression on Faramir's face is very subtly changed to one of a hope that he dares not let exist. Thank goodness, no mad rushing into his father's arms! But, rather, just a faint expression of disbelief, and a hope that he can hope and then... 'Leave me,' and it is gone. Aside from sending a heat to my eyes, it sent thrills through me.

[Boromir88]

Perhaps, as Boromir88 mentioned of the Mouth of Sauron's and Gothmog's deaths, it was merely to add more blood and gore?
See my post #18 for the reasons the Jackson team did it that way. Those are just the reasons behind why they had Saruman fall to a spikey death.

[Kitanna]

It was necessary for him to be killed, certainly, but was it necessary for him to fall in such a way and then be lowered slowly into the water?
I believe the lowering of Saruman into the water was supposed to support Treebeard's line of "The filth of Saruman is washing away." Still it was a terrible way for him to go.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

As to Legolas shooting Grima and Saruman's death by Grima, this may be an example of PJ's and friends efforts (at times somewhat clumsy, at others
more successful) of conflating characters and events from the book into the
movies. Legolas is perhaps a nod to Grima's being shot by hobbits after killing
Saruman (although they should have had Gandalf trying to stop Legolas to
make it more "true" to the book, as Frodo regretted the killing of Grima).
Similarly, perhaps their having Gandalf assault Denethor was an effort to
acknowledge Beregond's battling Denethor's servants to save Faramir?

[obloquy]

Gandalf did not fear the Witch-King. It's silly that he did in the movies, but it bypasses some lore that they could not have included and thus, I guess, is understandable.

I really liked the Mouth of Sauron, too. Pretty wicked. I didn't much care for his inconsequential dispatching, however.

[Essex]

as an aside, did anyone hear gimli's voice change back to John rhys davies's real more 'posher' accent when he says 'I guess that concludes negotiations'. very strange.

I've mentioned this earlier, but for me the Mouth of Sauron was superb. And to add to this, in the film this was not a parley. The MoS did not come to offer the men of the West a deal, he came to scoff at their apparent weakness. So Aragorn was dispatching an enemy and not in conflict with any codes of war.

Having Aragorn cut off the MoS's head was used in the EE to give a reason for Sauron's eye to be moved away from the plains of Gorgoroth and Frodo and Sam.

[obloquy]

I don't disagree with Aragorn's action, I just think it made the Mouth come across as all talk. HARHARHAR

It undermines the badassitude of the rest of the scene leading up to it.

[The Saucepan Man]

It undermines the badassitude of the rest of the scene leading up to it.Spot on! I knew that there was something about Aragorn's decapitation of the Mouth of Sauron that irked me, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. But you have pinpointed it precisely there. What is the point of building up this marvellously loathsome character and have him mercilessly gloat and taunt Aragorn et al, only to have him despatched by Aragorn without a by or a leave? It does rather undermine the whole point of his characterisation (which I thought was great). It would have been much more powerful to have the Mouth of Sauron ride off leaving them despondent. There are numerous other points at which Sauron's eye could have been diverted (as, for example, in the cinema release).

[Elianna]

The quote goes as follows:Me mahara tonu taatou nga Uri-aapakura noo tuaanuku nei, noo te waaotuu te tu kekehua ana o ngaa Eldarin kua hohouu mai i te Uru-moana.
… Any ideas as to the meaning?

I tried to figureitout on my own, had no success, and looked elsewhere. So, lookie what I found at theonering.net:
Ataahua writes: Here is a copy of the Maori text in the end-credits of ROTK, with a translation provided by someone who is fluent in the Maori language. He said it was difficult to translate as the passage included metaphors which had to be interpreted, but once he knew it had to do with Tolkien’s Middle-earth the translation came easily:
Me mahara tonu taatou nga Uri-aapakura noo tuaanuku nei, noo te waaotuu te tu kekehua ana o ngaa Eldarin kua hohouu mai i te Uru-moana.

“Let us dedicate our memories to the spirits of the Eldar who came to us from the Ocean that lies to the West.”

My thoughts on all the Extended-ness will come later.

[alatar]

Gandalf did not fear the Witch-King. It's silly that he did in the movies, but it bypasses some lore that they could not have included and thus, I guess, is understandable.
.

I think that I could have accepted the staff breaking/prone wizard more easily if Gandalf would have simply 'smiled' just before the horns started blowing. It would have been like saying to the WK that while you're up here, the tides of battle are about to turn.

[Numenorean]

At last I finally watched the RoTK EE as part of a back-to-back trilogy marathon, then watched it again this morning. Lots of really good comments and thoughts on this thread both for and against, firstly Saruman:
Kransha Saruman's voice was perfectly melodious and sinister
I agree, the way he just rolled into the 'Théoden King...' speech was effortlessly rich and undulating, oozing with a resonant vocal quality that only someone as talented (and familiar with the text) as Christopher Lee could properly convey. Great addition to the film that really should've made the cinema edit.
I loved the short but excellent added scenes that touched upon the deeper histories and lore of Tolkiens legends, the crossroads with the Kings head was very poignant, and as ElanorGamgee has already pointed out Gandalf’s brief history lesson concerning Númenor, including allusions to the fall of the Númenórians and their culture of death as described in The Silmarillion.
was also vocally and visually marvellous.
The extra sequences at Pelennor Fields were great as far as they went. Some measure of justice was done to Gimlis axe-wielding and fighting techniques, I found the brief shots of him at Pelennor were greatly improved from the slapdash and comedic way he fought in TTT. Éowyn and Merrys extra scenes were fantastic, the hardihood of Hobbits and Women - particuarly in light of Éomers derogatory comments at Dunharrow - was much needed, and Éowyn/Dernhelms bravery and skill on the field was a sight to behold!
The aftermath of the battle was far more grimly realistic, I thought that Pip searching till dusk for Merry was highly emotive, and as Encaitare said Éomer finding Éowyn on the battlefield was short but perfect
On first viewing I found the whole Aragorn/Sauron palantir confrontation a bit puzzling and unsettling - especially with the evenstar shattering like that. On second viewing it made a bit more speculative sense in that Aragorn seemingly goads Sauron with Narsil/Andúril, thus Sauron in turn taunts Aragorn into uncertainty with images of mortality (that old Númenorean weakness!) and how it will one day claim even Arwen, leastways thats how I tried to fathom it.
The Mouth of Sauron was a fiendishly worthy addition, his loathsome mocking of Gandalf with the line..."Old Greybeard..." was brilliantly foul. The MoS came over as being so arrogant and abhorrently unctuous, yet desperate as he tried to discern if Gandalf had an ace up his sleeve. This was creepily revealed by the way in which he zeroed in on anything the Hobbits said immediately after he tossed them Frodos mithril shirt. His sudden decapitation at the hand of Aragorn was unexpected, and within the subtle context of the book it would indeed have been dishonourable, yet within the context of the film I thought it was acceptable - if somewhat fell, Gandalf himself says moments before that "We do not come treat with Sauron..." Therefore I agree with what Essex has already stated, Aragorn was dispatching an enemy and not in conflict with any codes of war
Overall the film (and the previous two) is massively entertaining and visually stunning, most of the shots of the famous Middle Earthian landmarks leapt straight from the pages and were magnificent to behold. The Grey Havens were especially beautiful and melancholic, exactly how I imagined them to look and feel.
Given the massive scale of the trilogy it could have been a total and utter disaster, PJ had to walk a fine and unforgiving line that not many others would have even attempted, and love of the project is evident in everyone who worked on it. Sure it would have been so great to have seen Bombadil, The Wight, Glorfindel, Erkenbrand, Imrahil, Halbarad, Elronds sons and the others who did not make the cut, and in a perfect world we would all be eagerly awaiting the release of an epic series of Silmarillion movies ;) .
As it is I am mightily impressed by the ambition, scope and quality of the extended edition trilogy, and am thankful we have got what we have.

[Essex]

Mr 'Defend the Movies till I die' makes a U turn at last......

I was dissapointed in a few things from the EE:

No end to the Fellowship's later years as documented in the Tale of the Years. I was hoping something would turn up as the director's commentaries in the fotr EE say that Galadriel's voiceover would 'bookend' the movies. I do note, however, on the first extra DVD some quick shots of legolas and gimli after the War of the Ring, and at least they filmed SOME shots like this. 10th or 20th anniversarry edition perhaps? you never know..................

No scene with Pippin bringing in Merry to Minas Tirith and Gandalf's line about the hobbit should have been brought into the city with great honour. And eowyn's line to eomer that he should make merry a knight of the riddermark. These scenes always bring a tear to my eye. He could have least got the 'Are you going to bury me?' line in! Ah well........

[Durelin]

One quick word on the Mouth of Sauron:

He was the first thing to creep me out in those films, so he was absolutely perfect in my mind. Maybe I'm just not a perfectionist when it comes to movies, but... :)

Also, the House of Healings scene between Faramir and Eowyn was almost exactly as I imagined it, though it was quite quite short...

And I think we can all agree that the movie wasn't anywhere near long enough... :D

[The Only Real Estel]

Like Durelin said, I found The Mouth of Sauron to be pretty creepy, I'm just glad PJ didn't go with his 'horizontal mouth' idea. Also, I find it a little strange that (in the documentary) when they are explaining the design behind his helmet, Daniel Falcnor states that "the book never says anything about whether you could see his eyes or not". I think when it says "Araogrn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held it...", it's pretty darn clear. Still, I thought the helmet was cool, so I'm not complaining :D. I am disappointed that Jackson had Aragorn behead the Mouth, however. It served little purpose other than to show Aragorn doesn't like to be made fun of. There is an element of truth (for once) in what the Mouth says in the books: "I am a herald and ambassador and may not be assailed!", though it seems that Jackson decided it'd be okay for Aragorn to break that law just this once. :rolleyes:

[Essex]

Estel,

as I mentioned earlier, in my opinion the MoS in the Movie did not come to Parley. He came to scoff and scorn. He did not offer the West a Treaty. Therefore Aragorn was not breaking any code of War by killing the MoS.

[Lathriel]

Luckily we all seem to agree on this... The houses of healing was too short. Especially for Faramir and Eowyn. (Where was the kiss?????)
I would have loved to see more of that.

I really liked the Palantir scene though because it explained the dream Aragorn had at Dunharrow.

I was really glad there were more moments with sam and Frodo. Such as the crossroads. Sam seeing the star in the sky while in Mordor. (A tiny favourite part of mine in the book) Also I like the orc army because I was waiting for it to happen in the theatrical and I was so dissapointed when it wasn't in the movie.

Also Karl Urban's acting was superb when he saw Eowyn. He showed so much grief that my eyes grew watery.

Although we critisize PJ a lot I have a great respect for him. I don't think anybody else could have done it or was crazy enough to do it. So I simply admire him for his courage of making this trilogy.

All in all I love the EE but I think there should have been less extra battle scenes and more of those scenes which were about character development. More scenes such as the one between Pippin and Faramir.

[Kitanna]

I just thought of this recently (and I knew this scene wouldn't be in) but I was still so sad when there was no Bill the Pony reunion.

[Enorëiel]

Wow - I had totally forgotten about that Kitanna! And now that you mention it... I really missed that scene too. :(

[alatar]

I just thought of this recently (and I knew this scene wouldn't be in) but I was still so sad when there was no Bill the Pony reunion.

Not surprised as Jackson et al talk about wanting to have Bill killed by the Watcher at the Hollin Gate in FOTR EE, but that they had to film Bill leaving the area due to studio complaints (or something).

[Kitanna]

GASP! :eek: He wanted to kill Bill the Pony!? I'm shocked and horrified. And want to say many horrible things after PJ for such an evil thought, but I shall not for I will regret it later.

[Lathriel]

Same as Kitanna

GASP!!!!! :eek:
I love Bill the pony, if he was killed... I dare not say any more!!!
In truth I hope that it is a rumor because I was also looking for the reunion between Frodo and Bill and I was sad to see it wasn't there.

However, just maybe I'll forgive PJ ;)

[alatar]

Lathriel and Kitanna,

Note that I've not heard anything regarding Bill's final demise or resting place; however, if you listen to the Directors' Commentary on FOTR EE DVD, you will hear that PJ et al wanted to do poor Bill in. At first I thought that they were joking, but as they droned on about it for a few minutes, I realized that they would have 'killed Bill' if not restrained.

One of my complaints regarding PJ is that in the ROTK EE he decided to add non-Book stuff (like the infamous drinking scene) yet couldn't show Sam reuniting with Bill - weren't the EE versions supposed to be for Tolkien fans like us?

If Sam could cry over releasing Bill, was the pony not then important enough for a 30 second nod in ROTK EE? :(

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

When the Black Gate opened, all we could see was the Mouth of Sauron riding out, yes? But then, seconds later, it opens again and this absolutely gargantuan army comes pouring out. Where were they hiding?

[Hikaru]

I pretty much agree with what others have said...Christopher Lee is a perfect Saruman, he is so gifted at capturing that element of horror and evil and has a perfect, resonant voice. I'm disappointed that they didn't include the Scouring of the Shire, but in fact, in the books it feels like the story is over but it isn't. For the purpose of a film, I can see why they chose to end the story in a more logical , straightforward way.

Denethor could have been so much better. In the books he is mad, but still a sympathetic character.

Loved the Mouth of Sauron...his mouth was so creepy and reptilian.

Loved the drinking scene with Legolas and Gimli, but I am annoyed that the poor Dwarf keeps getting used for comic relief. It would have been fun to see Legolas a bit ruffled.

And yes....poor Bill the Pony. They should have given him and Sam a five-second reunion. The horse was robbed, I tell ya!

[Kitanna]

When the Black Gate opened, all we could see was the Mouth of Sauron riding out, yes? But then, seconds later, it opens again and this absolutely gargantuan army comes pouring out. Where were they hiding?

The more important question in my mind is how come in TTT it takes two trolls to open the gate, but in ROTK it opens by itself? Is Sauron using the Dark side of the Force to open it from across Mordor?
Speaking of the Force you can see Gandalf using the Force on Aragorn. That part where you hear the Eye going "Aragorn..." the camera cuts to Gandalf for a second and you can see him wave his hand like he's using the Force.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Ooh! Kill Bill II, too (whatever).

Hmm. Let's see. If PJ likes horses LOTR fans could have put in a call to
Michael Corleone to have Luca Brasi have a chat with PJ. Hey, PJ ain't no bandleader. :(

I've only put on the movie and cast commentary, so far, to ROTK EE, but this
is rather typical of PJ and friends, on the one hand good special effects and
casting, on the other a number of gratuitous, and frequently pointless,
changes to LOTR. Arg! :(

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maybe the Trolls opening the Gate in RotK were wearing Rings of Power, and were thus invisible.

Maybe the army were all on an exceedingly large platform which ascended after the Mouth had went through.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Maybe tiny weasels bribed gandalf to dance like a ballerina in the halls of Minas Tirith.
Maybe.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Do you thereby imply Samwise that the audience was not supposed to twist their imaginations in such ways, and that this was actually a mistake from the filmmakers?

:eek:

[Assasin]

Has anyone looked at the commentary in the extras? It's hilarious! I laughed so hard! Dominic and Billy are especially funny. :D

[SamwiseGamgee]

Personally, I think it was a 'deliberate mistake'. How so? Certain members of the crew and film making staff had no idea about this occurring, but unfortunately there was a large representation from the SDWS (Sympathisers with Dancing Weasels Society) on the team. They were probably paid off by head honchos in the SWDS to doctor their film.
Maybe.