Denethor's madness.

[Boromir88]

It's clear in the books one of the main contributing factors to Denethor's madness was the palantir, and literally losing his mind to Sauron. The movies stay away from this, so what factors in the movie does contribute to Denethor's madness. I haven't seen the appendices so if someone has, maybe there's some helpful info in there.

Was it simply the loss of his son Boromir? Or in TTT EE did it appear there was something whacky about Denethor, besides the fact that he was a mean father to Faramir? Perhaps it was also the thinking that Faramir was dead, and he had no heir, his line had "ended." Therefor he saw no need in resisting Sauron anymore? I don't know, just some ideas, since Jackson stayed away from the palantir, I wanted to see what was in the movie to try to show Denethor's madness. Or, whether Jackson just showed Denethor being a crazy guy from the very beginning.

[Thinlómien]

Or, whether Jackson just showed Denethor being a crazy guy from the very beginning.
He did so. :mad:
Probably PJ thought also about the loss of Boromir, if you remember the scene in RotK EE where Denethor looks at Faramir and sees Boromir running to him (Denethor) and says "ohh, my son."

[Essex]

In the commentaries, Ian Noble mentions that Denethor was affected by the Palantir, and I know in press conferences he held, he was sad that jackson was not able to fit in denethor with the palantir. maybe just a view of the palantir burning in the pyre as we get in the book would do.

but movie wise (without knowing the story) then yes, he was driven mad by the loss of his son. I don't think he was 'crazy' in the film though until he sees the hordes of orcs outside minas tirith. that (movie wise) tips him over the edge.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Aside from Gandalf's ridiculuous phyically assaulting Denethor,
the worst bit of movie Denethor was the lack of any
character development or even character collapse. Even in the
extended dvd bit when his boys take back Osgiliath Denethor
is portrayed as a thoroughly unpleasant person with no
discernable plusses. :mad: There was no character arch,
which even movie Faramir had, to some extent.

[King of the North]

Right from the get go when u first meet Denethor (TTT EE) he is a bit crazy as he insists that Boromir goes to Rivendell and claims the One Ring for Gondor. By showing from the beginning that Denethor is mad, PJ did not create good character. And if you watch only the theatrical versions of the movies, Denethor is even less interesting.

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
There was no character arch, which even movie Faramir had, to some extent.

Very true. Movie Denethor did not go through any journey and essentialy remained static throughout his entire role in the movies. The death of Boromir only contributed Denethor's insanity, but it did not start it because as I stated above, the Steward is somewhat insane from the very beginning. In the movie we never see the good leadership qualities that Denethor had in the book until he lost his mind to the Palantir.

[The Saucepan Man]

I am not really a fan of film Denethor (although I do think that John Noble plays the character as written superbly). But, realisitically speaking, there was not enough time within the last film to establish Denethor as the proud but noble character we meet initially in the book and then have him change into the suicidal and infanticidal character that he is at his death. The contrast would not have come across credibly within the time available to devote to him on screen. And so it made sense to have him as an unsympathetic character from the outset.

But I think that there is a change in his character, albeit subtle, throughout the film. As Boromir88 points out, he only becomes really psycho once he sees the size of the force approaching Minas Tirith and then is given to believe that his remaining son is dead.

As for the original question, I think that there is sufficient in the film to establish the credibility of his despair, even without the Palantir. He is fully aware that Minas Tirith cannot hope to hold out on its own against Sauron without having to be told as much by Sauron himself. Add to that the death of his favoured son and his conduct with regard to the defence of Minas Tirith and his attitude towards Gandalf (supplemented by his credible reluctance to give up his throne to a "usurper") seems believable to me. The reality of Sauron's assault on the White City and the death of his remaining son (or so he believes) is credibly sufficient to push him over the edge (if you'll excuse the pun ;) ).

[Anguirel]

I'm being a Devil's Advocate here, but isn't it amusing that we criticised Faramir's "character development journey" but are now declaring that Denethor is too static?

At least everyone agrees they got Boromir right. Aside from the question of the hair.

[King of the North]

Originally posted by Anguirel
I'm being a Devil's Advocate here, but isn't it amusing that we criticised Faramir's "character development journey" but are now declaring that Denethor is too static?

I never criticized Faramir's character development.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I will. It was illogical.

Anyway, that's for the Faramir thread. As for Denethor, he was basically just a jerk all the way throughout. A real shame I thought.

In the film, Denethor seemed to be in denial about Gondor's ridiculously low chances in the War. Then he sees Mordor's army, his eyes open up (literally) and he goes insane. I think that is as central an explanation as any, within the film's logic.

[Essex]

Aside from Gandalf's ridiculuous phyically assaulting Denethor,
the worst bit of movie Denethor was the lack of any
character development or even character collapse.Ok, I understand your point (in bold), but I think Jackson uses his creative licence from this part of the text.But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think you are right Essex, but (given the opportunity) I would have told Jackson that it doesn't actually say that Gandalf bashed him on the head! :D

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Good point by Essex above about Gandalf using his powers
when applied to the funeral pyre, when it was clearly necessary to
exert himself to save Faramir. The problem I have with PJ's version is
1) it's used earlier without the immediate threat of Faramir being killed
2) at the funeral pyre PJ misportrays it again as just slugging
away with his staff (as quoted from the book it would have worked better).
A wizard's staff should be used basically as a conduit of power, not as
a baseball bat or club.

The hidden power in Gandalf is all the more striking when sparingly
and correctly portrayed (as PJ did in Moria).

[Boromir88]

I do agree that the beating up of the Steward was another thing that Jackson overused. The way I see it when Gandalf storms in to save Faramir, and Shadowfax rears up and kicks it, it is more Gandalf that kills Denethor, and not Denethor. I didn't see any point in that part, basically had Gandalf give Denny a little nudge on his way out.
A wizard's staff should be used basically as a conduit of power, not as
a baseball bat or club.
I would say that's an accurate portrayal of the events before rescuing Faramir. Essex's quote, Gandalf strikes him to get him to back down, to sort of scare him. Where Jackson just had Gandalf whack Denethor until he was KO'ed. It wasn't enough to hit him in the face, but he had to jab it in the gut, then get a cheap knock over Denethor's head to make sure he was out cold. I'm surprised Gandalf didn't kick him afterwards.

I think that scene would have worked well, since Denethor is running around yelling at everyone to "flee," and Gandalf sort of conks him to either get him back to his senses or shut up. But, PJ couldn't have stopped it at that, there was really no need to beat the guy until he was unconscious.

[Lathriel]

I also find that Denethor's character is static however it doesn't bother me too much because there is too little time for him to develop much. I mean the movie is already 4 hours long and then to add character development for Denethor...it would simply bring the movie down. Although Denethor is an important character he is also a very minor one. Even Faramir has a bigger part to play then Denethor does.
As for Gandalf wacking his stick at him, why not? Denethor was getting annoying anyways, and he had to shut up.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Exactly. For Gandalf, physical violence is always the answer.

Seriously though Lathriel, they wouldn't have needed extra time to make Denethor how he should have been. They already took up a fair bit of time making him a complete jerk.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

This might sound naive, but in the chapter The Siege of Gondor in ROTK, which I read waaaaaaay before I ever saw the movie, I really saw Book!Denethor as a thoroughly unpleasant character. As soon as you meet him, you feel his distaste for Gandalf, his coldness towards Faramir ("Yes, I do wish that! For Boromir was loyal to me, and no wizard's pupil!"), and his utter obsession with Gondor. I only really started liking Book!Denethor AFTER he went nuts and silently sat at Faramir's bedside, white-faced.
So in one respect, I think that PJ messed up: Book!Denethor was unpleasant, all right, but essentially he really did love Faramir. That never, ever made it into Movie!Denethor's character, even if Gandalf said it out loud. That little putzy "Faramir?" at the end, right before he jumped off the Wall in flames, was nothing like what Book!Denethor said or did. I feel a little bit the same way about Movie!Denethor as I do about Movie!SiriusBlack.

As far as I'm concerned about Gandalf beating up the Steward, that was comic relief. Gimli wasn't there, so it was up to Gandalf.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So much comic relief...