Oh, I'm a ghost and I'm OK; dodge arrows all night 'n' clash swords all day!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Legolas' arrow goes straight through the King of the Dead.

The King's sword is presumably just as ghostly as the King.

Yet his sword makes real contact with Aragorn's sword.

What's going on here?

(I am expecting a religious/spiritual backlash.)

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Another interesting thing is that when the ghosts walk over an orc it dies but when they rummage through the Three Hunters, they are not harmed.

[Kath]

I thought the whole sword thing happened because of the history of Anduril having been part of the oath that the dead made.

[empress_han]

I think that it might have something to do with the fact that Aragorn is weilding the sword, they are bound by the oath. Or maybe the sword isn't ghostly? When men rot weapons still stay intact.

[Kitanna]

Mmmmm, I smell a plot hole. O those crazy dead.

I always thought the fact their swords clang had to do with Anduril and Aragorn being the rightful king. But the fact that the hunters are not killed when the ghosts pass over them is strange.

[The Saucepan Man]

Yet his sword makes real contact with Aragorn's sword.The whole point is that Aragorn as the true heir of Isildur, the one who cursed them, and wielding Isildur's sword, is the only one capable of challenging the King and holding him and his people to their oath.

But the fact that the hunters are not killed when the ghosts pass over them is strange.Perhaps they have a choice in whether they kill those who they swarm over ... :rolleyes:

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

The whole point is that Aragorn as the true heir of Isildur, the one who cursed them, and wielding Isildur's sword, is the only one capable of challenging the King and holding him and his people to their oath.
I think Sauce strikes the nail on the head. Perhaps they have a choice in whether they kill those who they swarm over Maybe. But that, I think, leads us to a question about what made the Dead so... deadly.
And suddenly the Shadow Host that had hung back at the last came up like a grey tide, sweeping all away before it. ... Pale swords were drawn; but I know not wether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear. None would withstand them. ... And all marines were filled with a madness of terror and leaped overboard. In the movie we see that grey (or green) tide and they just float over the enemy swinging their swords. In the book it seems that they used mostly fear instead of physical whacking abilities. Later it is told that at the end all enemies drowned or fled so the ghosts didn't/ couldn't kill all of them. So, did the orcs and other nasty things just get a heart-attack and die? Maybe not.
Yet his sword makes real contact with Aragorn's sword.I'd be interested to know, what would have happened if Aragorn hadn't been able to stop the Dead King's strike. Would he have been able to wound Aragorn?

[The Saucepan Man]

In the movie we see that grey (or green) tide and they just float over the enemy swinging their swords. In the book it seems that they used mostly fear instead of physical whacking abilities.Yes. They were presented differently in the film. This was, I would guess, necessitated by their presence at the Pelennor, as it would have looked rather silly to have the vast army of Mordor (Oliphaunts and all) simply turn tail and run.

I'd be interested to know, what would have happened if Aragorn hadn't been able to stop the Dead King's strike. Would he have been able to wound Aragorn?I would assume so. If they could kill Orcs, they could have killed Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli (but for Aragorn's heritage and singularly appropriate blade).

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Don't get me wrong; I know that that's the answer, Anduril and all that. I guess I might be looking at a wider issue not necessarily to do with Tolkien, though maybe Tolkien did provide an answer.

How on Earth (and Middle-earth) can ghosts pose an apparently physical threat?

[the phantom]

Perhaps PJ's orcs are extremely allergic to green mist?

[Bêthberry]

How on Earth (and Middle-earth) can ghosts pose an apparently physical threat?

Probably the same way that Ringwraiths can be disembodied spirits but still need clothes and horses. :p ;)

[the guy who be short]

Probably the same way that Ringwraiths can be disembodied spirits but still need clothes and horses.

Why exactly did they need cothes anyway? I mean, there's enough nudity in LotR, so I don't see why the ringwraiths should be excluded from the fun...

Speaking of which, why did the ghosts have clothes? Can cloth be ghosted?

[empress_han]

Perhaps PJ's orcs are extremely allergic to green mist?
*giggle* quite possibly!
Maybe it's the fact that they are fulfilling an oath for good. The orcs can't take the good?

[The Saucepan Man]

How on Earth (and Middle-earth) can ghosts pose an apparently physical threat?Why on earth (and Middle-earth) shouldn't they? Ghosts interact with the physical world in many tales. Poltertgeists for example.

But if we are going to come over all realistic about it, how on earth (and in Middle-earth) can ghosts exist at all? :p

[Bêthberry]

Why exactly did they need cothes anyway? I mean, there's enough nudity in LotR, so I don't see why the ringwraiths should be excluded from the fun...

Speaking of which, why did the ghosts have clothes? Can cloth be ghosted?


But tgwbs, cloaks are de rigueur for swishy villains. No self-respecting baddie in a historical costume drama would be found without one.Where would Darth Vader have been without his? Just another deep throat. And ghosts are unhappy souls who are doomed to walk this earth (or, apparently, float in green goo). They cannot shake off completely this mortal coil. And that includes the duds they died in supposedly. Dickens' Christmas ghosts were all clothed but come to think of it Shakespeare didn't actually represent his ghosts on stage.


But if we are going to come over all realistic about it, how on earth (and in Middle-earth) can ghosts exist at all?

Perhaps this is part of the "unconsciously so in the revision." Tolkien believed in the Holy Ghost (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm) , after all. Or would this argument just be more "baggage" from the primary world? ;)

*exit, stage left, followed by angry mob*

[Lalwendë]

How on Earth (and Middle-earth) can ghosts pose an apparently physical threat?

Maybe they just scared the pants off the orcs? I mean literally. So these Orcs would be standing there with no kecks on and would be so mortified they'd pop their clogs?

What happens when an Orc dies anyway? I presume there is some Orcish equivalent of the Halls of Mandos, being as they are immortal and presumably tied to the earth just as the Elves are. And would this be in Middle Earth? Maybe that explains why they were so hard to deal with, like ants they just kept coming back.

But if we are going to come over all realistic about it, how on earth (and in Middle-earth) can ghosts exist at all?

Darn, I'm going to have to pull out the "I haven't got my books with me" Monopoly card here, but in HoME, in Morgoth's Ring, there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that ghosts did exist in some form. There is a description of the nature of the houseless fea of an Elf which is quite beautiful, and very suggestive of ghosts. I sometimes wonder whether this is Tolkien's own attempt to 'explain' ghosts and/or earth spirits.

Why should 'ghosts' not exist in Middle earth? The idea of hroa/fea would make plenty of room for the possibility of 'ghosts'. After all, we only have an idea of what a 'ghost' might be like, we have no concrete explanation of our own so Tolkien like many writers has been free to play around with that.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

...cloaks are de rigueur for swishy villains. No self-respecting baddie in a historical costume drama would be found without one.

But as you know if you've seen "The Invincibles", capes at least are not a good idea for superheroes! :eek: :rolleyes: ;)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, this is pretty much my point: In order to be clever and worthy, an author should explain his ghosts, because some people might just think that the idea of ghosts is absurd.

In the film it is just assumed that the audience will think "OK, ghosts; great." but why not go further than this? I am very interested in the idea of ghosts so I'd like to talk about it.

I don't get how the arrow just goes through the ghost. And how come they just appear out of nowhere when entering battle? Have they power over their own visibility? Why are they visible anyway?

To make it Tolkien-related, I remember him saying somewhere that the Ringwraiths existed only partially in the world of Hobbits, and partially in another world (a shadow land?) Is this where the ghosts are flitting in and out of?

[the guy who be short]

I'm unable to gather quotes at the moment as I'm in a bit of a rush, but:
To make it Tolkien-related, I remember him saying somewhere that the Ringwraiths existed only partially in the world of Hobbits, and partially in another world (a shadow land?) Is this where the ghosts are flitting in and out of?
I think I recall that the "Shadow-land" was a type of parallel spirit world. The Elves dwell partially in it, as do the Wraiths and presumably these ghosts.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

See? That's an explanation I can like. Just don't let anyone try to apply it in the real world.

[Firefoot]

Why are they visible anyway? Maybe something to do with air density?I think I recall that the "Shadow-land" was a type of parallel spirit world. The Elves dwell partially in it, as do the Wraiths and presumably these ghosts. And Anduril, as well, apparently. I wonder how that came about.

There was some brief discussion of a shadow land in the CbC discussion of The Flight to the Ford (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11138&page=1), see esp. Davem, post #2 and myself, post #8. After that the discussion gave way to other (also very interesting) discussions...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Is anyone going to comment on the awesome thread title?

[Kath]

It is an awesome thread title Eomer, but thanks to you I've had the Lumberjack song stuck in my head ALL DAY!

[Neurion]

Mmmmm, I smell a plot hole. O those crazy dead.

I always thought the fact their swords clang had to do with Anduril and Aragorn being the rightful king. But the fact that the hunters are not killed when the ghosts pass over them is strange.They should have left it, like so many other things, as it was in the book. :rolleyes:

[Elendhel]

Is it wrong that I just put it all down to mystical ghost powers? Of which I know nothing because I am not, infact, a ghost?

[Holbytlass]

But as you know if you've seen "The Invincibles", capes at least are not a good idea for superheroes!

But since the ghosts are already dead, they don't have to worry about dying from cape-accidents!

TGWBS: I think I recall that the "Shadow-land" was a type of parallel spirit world. The Elves dwell partially in it, as do the Wraiths and presumably these ghosts.
Eomer of the Rohirrim: See? That's an explanation I can like. Just don't let anyone try to apply it in the real world.

Hmm, the Bermuda Triangle? :p

Even in the book, it is said that they 'do not suffer the living to pass' (Eowyn), so how do they stop the living?