The Silmarillion Survivor

[Anguirel]

Welcome to the most epic reality TV show of the First Age!

A few ground rules:

1. To represent the long passage of time and generations in the Silmarillion, tribes will come and go at certain points, and deaths will sometimes occur as well as evictions.

2. I will be describing the challenges and their results. Vote with an eye to what needs to be achieved. A failed challenge can have dire and radical consequences...

3. The Silmarillion is a substantial work. In keeping with this, all votes without some reasoning are discounted.


Right. It's Day One in Valinor, and Feanor has just created the Silmarilli...

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Manwe
Melkor
Ulmo
Aule
Tulkas
Namo aka Mandos
Orome
Lorien
Varda
Yavanna
Nienna
Este
Vana
Vaire
Nessa

NOLDOR

Finwe
Feanor
Fingolfin
Finarfin
Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Caranthir
Curufin
Amrod
Amras
Fingon
Turgon
Aredhel
Finrod
Artanis aka Galadriel
Orodreth
Aegnor
Angrod

TELERI

Olwe

MAIA

Osse
Uinen
Eonwe
Huan
Olorin
Tilion
Arien

VANYAR

Ingwe
Indis
Amarie

FORCES OF EVIL

Ungoliant

The first challenge-HORTICULTURE. Look after the island's source of light, the Two Trees. Make sure they're tended and watered properly and that no vandals can hurt them.

EDIT: Voting closes at 9 GMT, which is I think 3:00 or 4:00 EST...anyone who keeps a running tally gets a gold star from me!

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmm. The nature of the task makes one contestant in particular a candidate for eviction. But it is always possible that her skills will be needed later on.

Who was it that declared the day of feasting that meant that the Trees were left unguarded? Manwe, wasn't it? Perhaps we should consider voting him off so that the other contestants can get on with the job of guarding the Trees without the distraction of some pointless feast. ;)

[WaynetheGoblin]

++ungoliant get rid of the evil.

[Anguirel]

I suppose your comment just about counts as reasoning, Wayne...

A most original idea, Saucie. I think you'll find Melkor supports it...

I fear people are worn out by LOTR Survivor. The ratings for this first series are troublingly low! Come on, one and all, roll up, roll up...

[Lalaith]

Dear moderator, I'm not quite clear as to your wishes. Would you like us to propose eviction candidates immediately or did you intend us to invent some dramatic incidents first?

[The Saucepan Man]

But it is always possible that her skills will be needed later on.Just to add some further thoughts on that comment.

It seems to me that what Anguirel is presenting us with here is a series of "problems" which, in effect, need to be solved. So what we need to do is work through the problems (either in co-operation or - more likely - in a series of loose alliances and mutually antagonistic groups ;) ) in order to come up with the best solution. My preminary reaction to the "problem" which Ang has set us today is that the obvious solution may not necessarily be the best one.

[Anguirel]

No, sorry, I should have made that clear. You just vote for contestants to leave, with reasoning, as normal. I'll then write up the results of your choice and how the challenges go.

IE, I get to do the creative writing, you do the politicking! Rather like a Werewolf game, ho ho...

Basically, Saucie's post is a model of what you should be doing...thinking about the challenge as well as about your own opinions, and deciding accordingly.

Have fun...

[arcticstorm]

If this is what we are intended to do, I agree with Sauce that ++Manwe 's feast seems to be the most dangerous thing to the trees.

[Eonwe]

well, well, i guess i will make my survivor debute.

Lets see, the first part is tended and watered properly. that would be yavanna's business, i believe. and the next, protected and free from vanals, would fall on orome and tulkas. so i propose that first off, we detail these three for 24/7 watch about the trees. then we can think of striking at the vanals themselves at our leisure.

as for the vanals, the obvious answer (as wyane put it) is get rid of the evil (aka melkor and ungoliant). but i ask you, what fun is an island with no Dark Lord to fight, eh? so manwe might be a good choise.

[Anguirel]

Show host's fair warning: if Melkor goes too early, you may find certain Valar suffer attacks of megalomania...

[Lalaith]

++Olwe.
What good were the Teleri when it came to looking after or even caring about the Trees?
They recked little of seasons or times, and gave no thought to the cares of the Rulers of Arda, or the shadow that had fallen on Valinor, for it had not touched them, as yet.

I bet if you vox-popped any passing elf on the streets of Alqualonde, s/he wouldn't even be able to tell you the *name* of one of the Trees, let alone how to take care of them. The feckless Teleri have been encouraged in their blinkered, parochial and downright selfish attitude by their leader. He has no place on Survivor, where pulling together counts for everything.

[Anguirel]

Ungoliant:1
Manwe:1
Olwe:1

[The Saucepan Man]

While I agree with your reasoning, Lal, the contestants are bound to have a sea-based task at some point, so it might be worth keeping Olwe as the only representative of the Teleri tribe.

Manwe is a possibility, but what if one of the tasks involves aerial skills? His Eagles may come in useful.

It seems to me that we could happily lose one of the Noldor without compromising any future tasks. There would still be more than enough to tend to and guard the Trees. But which one ...

[Anguirel]

While I agree with your reasoning, Lal, the contestants are bound to have a sea-based task at some point, so it might be worth keeping Olwe as the only representative of the Teleri tribe.


Once the game moves to Middle-earth, there'll be Sindarin Elf mariners. But at this stage the argument stands...

Myself, however, I think that we should target neither Teleri nor Noldor. Behold the Vanyar! They comb their hair and sing songs that are in any case inferior to Maglor's. Indis and Amarie are always disturbing Finwe and Finrod with their flirting, and Ingwe is so damnably superior. Silver (golden?) spoons in all of their mouths...

I'm leaning towards Amarie. Her playing hard to get is really depressing Finrod and putting him off his task...

[Lalaith]

Ok, you're right. The Vanyar have always annoyed me, stuck-up teachers' pets.
That Ingwe, sitting at the feet of Manwe like a great blond pudding. I bet the party was his idea, and all.

--Olwe

++Ingwe

[Anguirel]

That's far too funny to resist. Ingwe it is. Get lost, O Shiny One! Not "King of all the Elves" now, are we?

++INGWE

Votes:

Ungoliant: 1
Manwe: 1
Ingwe: 2

If there are any Vanyar fans out there, look to your King...

[The Saucepan Man]

Ingwe is so damnably superior.

That Ingwe, sitting at the feet of Manwe like a great blond pudding. I bet the party was his idea, and all. :D

I quite agree, so I'll join the gathering ...

++ INGWE

... bandwaggon. :smokin:

[Eonwe]

Not so! Look at this nonsense, voteing for Ingwe. What harm has he ever done? Is there anything so terrible about being loyal to the valar?

I think a much better choice would be one such as Curufin. Hot-tempered, unpredictable, ruled by passion, malicious, the list goes on. There lies a true threat. I'll warrent that he has some jealous plot to steal the silmarils and destroy the trees himself, thus becomeing the sole owner of light. Can we really allow such outrage?!

++Curufin

[Anguirel]

Ungoliant: 1
Manwe: 1
Ingwe: 3
Curufin: 1

Curufin? You mean Feanor's kindly, charming fifth son? The one with the lovely, round, soft, innocent eyes? The sensitive smith and artist? The loving husband whose wife is expecting a child?

Come off it. A ridiculous accusation!

And a dangerous one too. Quite apart from Feanor himself-and Curufin is Feanor's favourite!-he has rather a lot of tall, imposing, muscled big brothers.

Maedhros-"If that sissy Maia herald Eonwe so much as touches my wee brother..."

Maglor-"Voting for Curufin? He must have simply dreadful taste..."

Celegorm-"I'll have a word with Orome about this. No one bullies little Curu and gets away with it!"

Caranthir-*seizes massive hammer from forge* "So where does this Eonwe live?"

[Eonwe]

Herm, unless i am quite mistaken (which is not a bad assumption), was it not curufin and his brother caranthir who jealously and quite without honor attacked Beren and his fianse, luthian? this tells us something of their jealous nature, and another about their lack of kingly honor, which is easlily disernable in the character of ingwe.

Anyway, do you really think four measly elves would even be a small match for the herald of Manwe? First of, Maglor would only sing songs of regret and pain, which don't faze me in the least. And im sure Maedhros - always rational - would see how he couldn't honorably defend a brother that could conceive such a dastardly plan as killing the trees and stealing the silmarils. and don't you think stealing the silmarils would quite put curufin out of his father's good graces?

[Anguirel]

The Voice of Mandos confirms: Celegorm and Curufin, actually...but your point holds...

But there is no proof for your slanderous suggestion of Curufin's thievery. House Feanor have undying loyalty to each other. Why would this favoured son steal from his own father?

[mormegil]

Everybody this is the perfect time to get rid of Feanor. The silmarils have been created and if the trees are destroyed we can perhaps save them. Also getting rid of such a hot-headed jerk would save his wonderful sons Maedrhos and Maglor from entering into that awful oath and preventing the curse of the Noldor. I think it's time for this one trick pony to be put out to stud.

++Feanor

plus he never did a good job of defending the trees.

[Anguirel]

Ungoliant: 1
Manwe: 1
Ingwe: 3
Curufin: 1
Feanor: 1

Looks like the camp against idle blonde pretty Elves is more united than the camp against brooding, dark Byronic Elves...

[the guy who be short]

The first challenge-HORTICULTURE. Look after the island's source of light, the Two Trees. Make sure they're tended and watered properly and that no vandals can hurt them.Hmm. Now who can we possibly think of that may be described as a vandal, or who may want to destroy the trees - and fail the task?

++Ungoliant.

[Gothmog]

As I see it there's more than one tactic here.

One way to do this is to look at the task ahead and vote in a way which simplifies the dealing with it.

An other path to choose is to look further in to the future and try to eliminate possible threats to the other survivors in the long run. Or vote off those least needed on the island.

I would like to go for a combination. If we vote Manwe off, I'm sure the Valar would be quite upset and the chaos following when there's no natural leader might lead to a fight for the power. I guess both Ulmo and Aule wouldn't mind the title of King, not to mention about Melkor. And Varda might claim the title too, being the foremost among Queens with a strong support from the elves (O Elbereth!).

Ungoliant seems like the easy option, but is it to easy? Can she (it) be of use later?

There's some good reasons to vote Ingwe out. What good did he ever do? Spoiled children, all of those Vanyar... But on the other hand they didn't do any harm either. Rather vote Amarië than Ingwe however. What kind of woman stays at home when her beloved migrates to an other continent? bah...

I could go for Ingwe, but i think I'll...yes it has to be one of the 3 evil C's: Celegorm, Caranthir or Curufin. I've never liked Caranthir. Just listen to the "surname" the Dark. But it was Celegorm and Curufin that first imprisoned Luthien and then attacked Beren and Luthien in the woods. And the most despicable act of all was Curufin, beaten in battle by Beren, behind Berens back aiming and shooting, not one but TWO arrows at Luthien.

Therefore: ++Curufin.

He of no help regarding the "tree-quest" and he did a lot of things nobody would be proud of. I think the brothers thirst for power and revenge is a critical threat to the good atmosphere on the island.

Plus they always eats more than their share of rice

[the phantom]

I'm shocked that you would even consider voting off poor Feanor!

The text makes it quite clear that Melkor's primary goal was to ruin Feanor-
he sought ever more eagerly how he should destroy Feanor
And a mere elf obviously has no chance of fully resisting Melkor's will. Even the Valar knew it. They told Feanor "none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea, not though Eru who thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art."

How could you possibly blame Feanor for being influenced by the greatest being in all of the world?! Even Hurin the Steadfast saw all things crooked after spending a while in Melkor's presence.

The only difference is, Melian reached out and helped Hurin. Feanor, on the other hand, was not helped, but was actually punished by the Valar! Punished, for being influenced by Ea's most powerful being! There is NO justification for such a punishment.

And why, I ask you, was Melkor free to spread his lies and sow discord in the world?

Because the Valar let him loose amongst the Elves!

The Valar deal proudly and incorrectly far too often! I think that we should definitely get rid of one of them.

I think Manwe in particular should be given the boot.

Tolkien has this to say about Manwe, in HoME X-
He (Manwë) has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering-- even "keeping the status quo"- to the loss of all creative power, and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations.
Is that the sort of person you want to keep around to perform tasks?

+ + Manwe has to go!

[Anguirel]

A sudden flurry of controversy...

Ungoliant: 2
Manwe: 2
Ingwe: 3
Curufin: 2
Feanor: 1

I've never liked Caranthir. Just listen to the "surname" the Dark.

Clear signs of prejudice from this villainous Balrog!

And the most despicable act of all was Curufin, beaten in battle by Beren, behind Berens back aiming and shooting, not one but TWO arrows at Luthien.

Yeah, well, her lovey-dovey singing and his whining were getting irritating. I would've done the same. Beren hardly played fair jumping on Curufin's neck, so shooting him in the back is an adequate response. And really, anything is acceptable to stop Little Miss Omnipotent.

revenge is a critical threat to the good atmosphere on the island.

And makes for good viewing!

I'm tempted to switch to Manwe, but only if my fellow anti-Ingweists give the go-ahead...

[The Perky Ent]

++Feanor


I shall continue my wrath against Feanor until the end of time (or until he gets voted off)


Useful votes: 11
Useless votes: 1

[Formendacil]

I think we need to get rid of Curufin. The main reason being that there is a good deal of confusion in Valinor. Since we're all still speaking Quenya, Curufinwe is the name of two Elves, and that is a confusion that is most befuddling...

Therefore, to eliminate this nasty little confusion, I am voting...

++Curufinwe the Younger

[mormegil]

So we are opposed to voting off Feanor because it's not his fault he's a prat but we will kick Ingwe off because he was actually loyal and obedient and Melkor found that they could not be twisted to his evil ways so he more or less left them alone. Interesting!

Ingwe is great, I think he is rather one of the more intelligent of the elves. He never faltered in his decisions and he held his people together. They were able to live in happiness because they never left Valinor. He sounds like a great ruler to me.

[the phantom]

Ingwe off because he was actually loyal and obedient and Melkor found that they could not be twisted to his evil ways
If Melkor would've made Ingwe and the Vanyar his focus he would've eventually gotten to them too. The only reason he didn't was because, as you said, "he more or less left them alone".

No elf could remain unchanged if Melkor turned his full concentration their way.

However, I never suggested voting off Ingwe. I agree that he should be kept around. ALL THE ELVES SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE THIS ROUND!!

The whole incident with Melkor and the trees was started by the Valar. If you are going to vote anyone off, vote one of them off. I would suggest Manwe, who, according to Tolkien himself, has no creativity and can't deal with perilous situations.

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm tempted to switch to Manwe, but only if my fellow anti-Ingweists give the go-ahead...I'd prefer to keep Manwe for the time being. Although his judgment may be off sometimes, he provides firm leadership, which is extremely useful in these situations. Melkor is already sowing the seeds of discontent. Without Manwe to keep the other Valar in line, the whole camp could descend into chaos. Interesting viewing perhaps, but not very condusive to task completion. And you never know when those Eagles may come in handy.

So we are opposed to voting off Feanor because it's not his fault he's a prat but we will kick Ingwe off because he was actually loyal and obedient and Melkor found that they could not be twisted to his evil ways so he more or less left them alone. Interesting!No. We want to kick Ingwe off because, while he may be loyal and good and worthy and all that, he makes dreadfully dull viewing. I mean, name one thing of note that he ever did that did not involve going with the status quo and staying put (like a pudding, as Lal put it. :D ).

Feanor, on the other hand, makes compelling viewing, whatever you may think of him personally.

That said, I am not averse to the idea of booting out one of the many Noldorin Elves. My inclination would be to go for Amrod or Amras - who are, let's face it, pretty interchangeable.

[Gothmog]

Clear signs of prejudice from this villainous Balrog!

Just look at that!:eek: Talking about prejudice and in the next breath assuming a Balrog beeing something by nature evil? How about a good Balrog? We are just misunderstood. I despise this kind of this...in lack of a better word inconsistent behaviour! :mad:

So you don't like women, do you Anguirel? A bit sexist, eh? Well, this reality tvshow already has too much men in it. I mean, you talk about what makes good viewing. Think of all the flirting, intrigues and love triangels could be created if some more women were allowed. That usually draws a lot of viewers to this kind of show.

And accuse Beren of being a coward. I lack of words! Oh wait, here they come: He jumped on Curufin's neck AFTER Curufin took Luthien. Attacking women! :eek:
Plus, he jumped away from Celegorms attack and:
and the Leap of Beren is renowned among Men and Elves.

I agree that part of the blame for the trees being destroyed is Valars. But wouldn't it be wiser to vote on someone else than Manwe? I think he may be of great use later.

[the phantom]

And you never know when those Eagles may come in handy.
We don't need Manwe's eagles.

We have Tilion and Arien. They can handle all the up-in-the-air stuff. And later, we'll have Earendil. And if we are really in desperate need of air power, we can have Melkor make a batch of dragons.
he provides firm leadership
What good is Manwe's leadership if he's leading in the wrong direction? Not to mention, he freezes up and goes blank in difficult situations.

Melkor is a better leader. Sure, he's affiliated with evil, but according to the text he has a share of the gifts of all of his fellow Valar. That means that he can somewhat relate to all of them, and can understand what his fellow Valar are capable of, therefore he would be better than anyone at directing them.

And as far as him sowing seeds of discord, he wouldn't be doing that if everyone agreed to follow him, would he?

We need to get rid of Manwe while we have the chance!

[The Saucepan Man]

We have Tilion and Arien. They can handle all the up-in-the-air stuff. And later, we'll have Earendil.While they may be good for carting heavenly bodies and the like around the skies, they are not much use when it comes to the precision stuff, like aerial reconaissance, rescue missions and personnel/cargo transport.

And if we are really in desperate need of air power, we can have Melkor make a batch of dragons.Problem is, we'll have to wait a long time while he works his way through the wingless prototypes. Then again, Balrogs have wings, don't they? Perhaps we could rely on them ... ;)

But no, I think Manwe should stay for now. Later, if and when Thorondor joins the show and another potential leader has emerged, I will not be averse to the idea of booting him out.

As for Melkor, I am not sure about him being appointed leader. I don't know, but there's just something about that guy that I don't trust. ;)

[mormegil]

But we would need Manwe's eagles for the protection of Gondolin, which is my favorite Nolorian city.

[Lalaith]

And if we get rid of the blond ponce, the Vanyar might elect another, slightly less obsequious leader to replace him.

That Indis always had potential, I thought...I mean, look at her kids and her grandkids, they turned out pretty good...the best of the Noldor...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It might have been Ingwe's idea to throw a party, but since there is no evidence I hold Manwe responsibel !

++Manwe

[the phantom]

the precision stuff, like aerial reconaissance, rescue missions and personnel/cargo transport
we would need Manwe's eagles for the protection of Gondolin
You know, I just thought- why would booting Manwe out get rid of the Eagles?

The eagles don't live and die with Manwe. They have their own life.

Don't you think it would be a good thing to get the eagles out from under the inept thumb of Manwe. I imagine whoever was elected as the new Valar leader would wield the eagles more wisely.

[mormegil]

One other important thing we are forgetting if Manwe is gone will Gandalf ever come to M-e? I don't thing anybody but the powerful leader Manwe could have convinced him to come.

[the phantom]

if Manwe is gone will Gandalf ever come to M-e?
Varda could send him. From Unfinished Tales, The Istari-
There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olorin (Gandalf) to Manwe and Varda...

[Anguirel]

Ungoliant-2
Manwe-3
Ingwe-3
Feanor-2
Curufin-3

I yearn to be rid of the useless and goody-two-shoes Ingwe, but may have to vote for Manwe to save Feanor and Curufin!

Come on, people. Vote Ingwe; he's a snooty fop, a blonde Aryan supremacist, a cowtowing Valar licking emasculated priceling, and I have a really amusing eviction description lined up for him, honest...

the phantom-switch to Ingwe for now and we'll Manwe-hunt tomorrow. Deal?

Oh, and the question of Gandalf is irrelevant. This game covers the Quenta Silmarillion, IE it'll end when the First Age does.

[arcticstorm]

-- Manwe ++Ingwe

I am doing this in order to save feanor and his son

[Anguirel]

arcticstorm m'lad-have a Star of Feanor! You have excellent taste.

Ungoliant-2
Manwe-2
Ingwe-4
Curufin-3
Feanor-2

[Lalaith]

Think of all the flirting, intrigues and love triangels could be created if some more women were allowed

Now, Gothmog my love, surely you aren't suggesting this is the only purpose and function of women in this programme?

[Gothmog]

I'd rather vote for Ingwe than Manwe, allthough the best would be Curufin. Why not one of Feanors sons? There's a whole bunch of 'em anyway :)

[Anguirel]

There's a whole bunch of Valar too. And a few Vanyar. And the Seven Sons are more interesting, proactive and charismatic than all of the rest of them put together!

Besides, the more...morally dubious...of the brothers are by far the best villains in the book. Melkor is a kind of ultimately evil Blofeld or Voldemort, with a stereotypical German accent. Celegorm and Curufin are Scaramanga or Lucius, with a British accent straight out of Hollywood's idea of Eton. They're suave. They're elegant. They have good dress sense. They have classical educations. They think up ridiculously elaborate, ambitious, and stylish plans.

In short, they're a pair of pretty cool cucumbers, and I'd like to see them be still more successful than they were in the book...

[Gothmog]

Now, Gothmog my love, surely you aren't suggesting this is the only purpose and function of women in this programme?

Of course not! It's just that was Anguirel was talking about what makes good TV, and the way this society is going thats's what gives high viewing figures. If it's good TV is an other thing we could discuss...

Naturally, the women will cause some interesting conflicts and other situations, but that's only because you are so lovely we men act like fools around you ;)

The program would benefit in many ways by having the women left in the competition. There's some really strong characters among them, like Varda or Yavanna.

Better? :)

And Anguirel: sure they can be interesting, but they're still evil and might spoil the nice feeling of companionship and peace we have here. Couldn't you manage without at least one? You'll have six left to play with :)

[Anguirel]

If you want to nail a Son of Feanor, chase a twin. That would be nice and canonical!

All the others are among my favourite literary creations ever. Up there with Corporal Ludovick from Waugh's Sword of Honour...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

-- Manwe ++Ingwe

I am doing this in order to save feanor and his son

No your not !

You are doing it because you are a turncoat ! :mad:

I may have to curse you !

[Anguirel]

Incidentally, you'll notice I'm completely failing to be as impartial as Boro, particularly where the Seven Sons are concerned. If I haven't sobered up by the end, I'll decide the winner in the event of a tie by coin-tossing...

[the phantom]

Ungoliant-2
Manwe-2
Ingwe-4
Curufin-3
Feanor-2
Feanor only has one vote. On the first post of the thread, you specifically said-
The Silmarillion is a substantial work. In keeping with this, all votes without some reasoning are discounted.
So, only morm's vote for Feanor counts.
You are doing it because you are a turncoat !
Don't worry, Rune Son, Manwe will get booted off soon enough.

Anguirel said-
the phantom-switch to Ingwe for now and we'll Manwe-hunt tomorrow. Deal?
Maybe it isn't such a bad idea to bandwagon on Ingwe to make sure one of the two we want gets voted off, and tomorrow bandwagon on Manwe.

I'm willing to accept Anguirel's truce. How about you, Rune Son? Will you agree to the "Ingwe today, Manwe tomorrow" plan? I think you should. We must band together to save the poor Noldor, who, because of the Valar, were matched against a power (Melkor) that they could not contend with.

Save the Noldor! Bandwagon on Ingwe!

- - Manwe, + + Ingwe

We will take care of the ineffective Manwe tomorrow.

[Anguirel]

Voting closed. Results:

Ungoliant-2
Manwe-1
Ingwe-5
Curufin-3
Feanor-1

For his pomposity, his pretensions to pan-Elf dominion, and his frivolous suggestion that the contestants should hold a festival instead of guarding the Trees, Ingwe of the Vanyar is banished to the Halls of Mandos!

Results of the challenge and repercussions will be up at 7:30 am GMT.

[Anguirel]

Rune, voting is closed! Retire to a pleasant Valinorean rest and see what awaits you in the morning...

[Gothmog]

Awww, what is this? Already making pacts and forsaking your own free will to save some criminals? I agree that Feanor should stay. His sons may be good to have around, at least they'll create some commotion (Maedhros and Maglor should definitely stay). But we'll do with 6 out of 7. Curufin must go.

I don't like Ingwe very much, but you're voting for him only because he doesn't do anything. Better to vote for someone because they're doing something wrong.

What good will the leaving of Ingwe do considering the first task? Curufin on the other hand... I suspect the family of Feanor might try to harm the trees.

Think about it: Feanor has created the Silmarils and captured the light of the trees within. What if the trees were hurt? That would mean Feanor & Co owned an incredible treasure, the only reminder of the beautiful light of Telperion and Laurelin. A treasure to kill for...

sorry, too late... lost track of time :)

[Anguirel]

RESULTS OF DAY ONE

Ingwe had never been so insulted. He raised up all the Vanyar menfolk with not-that-fiery oratory.

"Is this not a disgrace, my braves? That the Valar have stopped cuddling us? I say we rebel, and, er, sail to Middle-earth..."

So devoted were they that the men of the Vanyar followed him with one heart. And they approached the Teleri to find ships.

And Ingwe said, "My lord Olwe, we're, er, planning to rebel and colonise Middle-arth. Can we have some transport please?"

And King Olwe did say, "Get lost, wimp." And the Vanyar did crawl off in sorrow and abashment. Yet Ingwe, full of hope, ordered them to craft vessels of their own.

Never was such a lovely sight as the Vanyar fleet seen, and the Teleri watched on the shores in awe. For the hulls were made of silver and gold, and studded with gleaming gems.

Alas, the Vanyar were not learned in sea-craft. Gold does not float. And the bards of the Teleri crafted a song of the drowning of the Vanyar:

"Then the corpses began to trail their way
Back to our fair country, home of the Fair Elves
And their fair hair was awfully bedraggled."

The women of the Vanyar made some little dole and moan, then embraced emancipation and became Valkyries.

~~~

RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE

Although the Elves had contemptuously rejected Ingwe's partying suggestion and guarded the Trees, the Valar had still attended Manwe's festival. All but Melkor.

For he joined with Ungoliant on a terrible and underhand assault on the Trees. Only a crowd of intimidated Noldor stood between him and his prize.

Then Feanor drew his sword, and Melkor made a mental note that he should have taught the Noldor weaponcraft after destroying the Trees, not before, as all the rest followed suit...ever cunning, he legged it, pretending he had never been there.

Yet the battle between the House of Finwe and Ungoliant was fierce. Amrod fell, and Angrod, unprotected by the armour of interesting characterisation. Fingon had been sent to alert the Valar; and Tulkas arrived, and Ungoliant prudently retreated.

The first task was won. But it was discovered that Melkor had secretly raided Formenos, cut Finwe into pieces and stolen the Silmarilli! And Feanor named him Morgoth, Dark Enemy of the World...

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Manwe
Ulmo
Aule
Tulkas
Namo aka Mandos
Orome
Lorien
Varda
Yavanna
Nienna
Este
Vana
Vaire
Nessa

NOLDOR

Feanor
Fingolfin
Finarfin
Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Caranthir
Curufin
Amras
Fingon
Turgon
Aredhel
Finrod
Artanis aka Galadriel
Orodreth
Aegnor

TELERI

Olwe

MAIA

Osse
Uinen
Eonwe
Huan
Olorin
Tilion
Arien

VANYAR

Indis
Amarie

FORCES OF EVIL

Morgoth
Ungoliant

It's Day Two in Valinor. The second task: DIPLOMACY. Prevent any slaying of Elf by Elf.

Today, as an experiment, voting will continue till 7:30 am GMT tomorrow, as I know some weren't able to make the last Day. That means I'll be sleeping for most of the voting and a running tally kept by someone else would be really helpful.

[the phantom]

The second task: DIPLOMACY. Prevent any slaying of Elf by Elf.
That is quite a challenge. Now, I imagine everyone will be wanting to vote for the obvious Feanor in this situation, but remember what The Saucepan Man said about the last task-
My preminary reaction to the "problem" which Ang has set us today is that the obvious solution may not necessarily be the best one.
I believe that is true with this task also.

Feanor should not be the one to go.

First, we know that the kinslaying was between the Noldor and Teleri. The Noldor are always, for some reason, blamed for the entire incident, but are they really deserving of all that blame?

From The Silmarillion-
...he (Feanor) went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force. But the Teleri withstood him, and cast many of the Noldor into the sea. Then swords were drawn...
There! Swords were not drawn until the Teleri had thrown some of the Noldor into the sea!

And, as we all know, the Teleri were water-friendly elves, and the Noldor were not. Obviously, the Noldor could not swim, and surely the Teleri knew this!

The Teleri were the first to kill!

Yes, yes, I know that their boats were being taken, but are timbers worth killing for?

No!

But, why were the Noldor forced to take the boats in the first place? The Teleri were supposed to be their friends. The Noldor actually built the Teleri's city for them! Why weren't the Teleri willing to let their friends use their boats?

From the Silmarillion-
...no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar.
The Valar!

The Teleri wouldn't help their friends because they didn't want to displease the Valar! What kind of garbage is that?

The Noldor had their King slain and their treasure stolen, and what do the Valar do about it? They try to keep the Noldor from leaving Valinor- to keep them from fighting against the evil that had wronged them!

Once again, the Valar prove their complete incompetence!

When a unit consistently performs poorly, doesn't it seem logical to try new leadership?

Of course it does.

Manwe has messed up quite enough. He needs to go.

But if people for some reason want to keep him around, the next choice should be Olwe, for blindly obeying the whims of a grossly inept Manwe, and for not helping his friends in their need, and for the fact that it was his people, the Teleri, who started the slaying.

[The Saucepan Man]

But if people for some reason want to keep him around, the next choice should be Olwe ...But we still may need his boats, tp. Just look what happened when another tribe tried making their own ...

I tend to agree that it was the ineptitude of the Valar and the effect of their ludicrous rules which led to the kinslaying. But it was not Manwe's decision alone. The Valar are rather beaurocratically minded and tend to take decisions by committee. Even if Manwe goes, who is to say that Varda or Mandos, for example, will not propose the same restrictions on Elvish emigration and that the Valar, in committee, will not agree them?

But there is another possibility. If the will of the Valar is not known to the Elves, the Teleri will have no reason to deny Feanor's request. And who is it who publicises the will of the Valar? Why, none other than Manwe's herald, Eonwe.

What does Manwe need a herald for, anyway? Let him do his own dirty work, I say, and then we may see what he is really made of. Get rid of the monkey and we might have an opportunity to test the mettle of the organ grinder and be better placed to assess what he has to offer.

++ EONWE

[Lalaith]

I hear what you're saying Saucie, really I do, and will bear it in mind for a later time.
BUT, today's task is diplomacy. So it is not the day to ditch the PR.

I've thought about this and if we're going to win today's challenge, the obvious one to go is Osse.
The man's a nightmare - stirring things up and making trouble wherever he goes. AND he was once one of Melkor's posse. Why were the Teleri being so damn anal about their blessed boats? I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were the poison-dripping Iago turning their naive little minds against their cousins.

Plus, if Uinen didn't have to spend all her time trying to smooth out the social havoc created by her wayward spouse, she'd be able to focus her people skills on the wider issues now facing our divided elf community.

++OSSE

[Gothmog]

I agree with the Saucepan Man. Valar need learn a lesson, beeing too stuck up. They need to climb of their high horses, but Manwe is no good choice. Eönwe never did anything important. His some kind of front figure, blowing in trumpets and declaring things in a high pitched voice. His all show. If valar looses one of their closest, maybe they'll realise that they're not immune to voting and they might not deny the Noldor their own free will.

To keep the peace we must keep everybody calm, and a strong leader will be very important. Therefor Manwe stays, a fight for the crown now would be devastating.

Blaming Olwe or Feanor, that's blaming a symptom. What we need to do is treat the sickness behind the symptom before it breaks out...

++Eönwë

[The Saucepan Man]

BUT, today's task is diplomacy. So it is not the day to ditch the PR.For diplomacy to work properly, the protagonists need to talk face-to-face, rather than one side relying on some sweet-talking spin-doctor. Communicating through intermediaries only increases the risk of mismanagement, miscommunication and misunderstanding. It seems to me that, if the Valar are forced to involve themselves directly in the lives of the Elves, rather than issuing solemn directives from on high, there will be a lot more co-operation and a lot less dischord.

Ditch the spin, I say. :D

[Anguirel]

Votes:

Eonwe: 2
Osse: 1

I see great sense in Saucie's plan. I've never liked that stuck-up Eonwe with his poncy heraldic goings-on, and it seems exceptionally cunning to stop the Teleri being commanded by disposing of the messenger.

However, the phantom's more direct and radical plan to do away with the ineffectual King of Arda also has merit, and I am mindful of my promise yesterday. Unless the phantom chooses to release me from my bond, I will join the anti-Manwe party.

Some further evidence for you to brood on: an extract from the Silmarillion Film Project's provisional script dealing with the First Kinslaying...

Scene 35 Alqualondë

[Shot over the Noldor host. The banners of Feanor approach. The white swanships lie in the harbour.]

Harbour Master: The King has refused you passage! Turn back and make amends with the Valar.
Feanor: It is too late for that. Surrender your ships.
Mariner: What are you going to do, Feanor, King of the Noldor? Attack us?

[Laughing from the Teleri. Silence from the Noldor.]

Celegorm: Advance!

[The heavily armoured Noldor march forward. They start to step onto the ramps.]

Harbour Master: What is this insanity?
Mariner: Get off. We cannot let you on board.
Feanor: This is your last chance, mariners of the Teleri. You force our hands. Capitulate or...

[There is a splash. Several of the Noldor have been pushed into the sea. They sink rapidly. Feanor, Celegorm, and Curufin draw their swords. Curufin stabs the unarmed Harbour Master as he passes.]

Teleri Captain: Traitors and pirates! Archers, fire!

A clear corroboration of the phantom's view that the Teleri started the fight...

[Gothmog]

And an other evidence of the brute Curufin really are. Stabbing an unarmed man following his king's command... As soon as I get the chance, I'll make sure that criminal is thrown off the survivor island. My crusade has only begun...

How can you defend such an act of cruelness and such a lack of respect for life, Anguirel?

[Celuien]

Hmm, there certainly is a lot to be said for Sauce's plan. Manwe should take care of his own messages for any important diplomatic situation to be sure that there are no misunderstandings...and to prove that he's worthy of staying in this game. If he does come, I can't see the Elves getting into a fight in front of him - it's never good to cause trouble in front of the Boss. :D And if Manwe doesn't show up to make a declaration, I have to agree that there's still less chance that the either the Noldor or Teleri will start trouble. Either way, we've avoided a Kinslaying.

And Eonwe has become entirely too conceited since he got this job. All he does is brag about how he was chosen to be Manwe's Herald. It's very annoying.

++EONWE

[Anguirel]

It's simply stylish villainy. Curufin's a cad in the splendid Three Musketeers tradition, so I thought that particular action would suit him...I took it somewhat from here...



CARDINAL: You're mad!

CURUFINISH CHAP IN BLACK: Mad, Cardinal? I've been called that three times tonight. It must be so.

(He starts to leave. The Cardinal addresses one of his guards.)

GUARD: Shall I take him, my lord?

CARDINAL: Do so.

(The guard draws his rapier and rushes after the Curufinish villain. The Curufinish villain casually turns, runs him through and carries on walking out.)

It's called panache! Curufin is the John Malkovitch of the show, the Michael Corleone...

[mormegil]

I must keep reminding myself that this is mirth and not the proper forum to get into a heated debated as to where blame belongs for the kinslaying. So I will simply say to prevent the Elf on Elf slaying now and in the future we need to get rid of Feanor and his influence. When will it be that you all have your eyes opened and see that all problems for the Noldor are a result of this impetuous schmuck. Many future problems will be put to rest if we get rid of him now!

++FEANOR

[Gothmog]

Mormegil: It sounds as if you might join my crusade vs the Feanors. Although I prefer to get rid of Curufin, or one of the other Cs, Feanor has to go sooner or later... But for now I'll stick with Eönwe. To throw Feanor out now might cause the sons to go berserk. We must remember to stop the killing of elf by elf, and Feanor seems like the easy solution which proves the wrong one in the end...

How about getting Feanor & Co in a while, not right now?

Plus I must agree with Celuin; Eonwe has become a real braggart. He thinks he's better than everybody else just because Manwe favors him for the time being. I've heard a rumor that he got his eyes on Nessa too... Tulkas won't be happy and that might cause a lot of worries.

[mormegil]

Gothmog the problem is that Feanor will be gone in a couple of scenarios anyway, according to the way I understand it. But I really want to get rid of him now and change the course of Noldorian history. He's a git and need to be done away with. Perhaps there is a chance to save his sons if he's done away with now.

[Anguirel]

Since my suzerain lord the phantom has not absolved my allegiance, allowing me to vote for Eonwe...

++MANWE

True, his downfall will cause internecine chaos among the Valar.

But out of adversity unity might be born...

Votes:

Eonwe-3
Osse-1
Feanor-1
Manwe-1

[the phantom]

I, too, vote + + MANWE, for previously stated reasons.

But, if one of the Noldor is close to being lynched, I will change my vote to save him.

If I do this then that will release you from your pact with me, Anguirel.

I am willing to vote for about anyone to save the Noldor, who received the majority of the malice of Morgoth. In particular I pity Feanor, who Melkor hated above all else, and who, when he understandably messed up, was punished instead of helped by the over-proud Valar, which of course just made him worse.

There is no way that Feanor should go before his time.

[Formendacil]

Diplomacy, eh? So we lynch... er... remove, the least diplomatic?

Feanor goes. Definitely.

Sorry, Anguirel- and all your crazed, Feanorian-loving crowd, but you set the specs here, and Feanor is most definitely the most undiplomatic being in the Silm. Look at his record: he ticks off the Valar, and gets them to not only Ban him, but all his people. He ticks off the Teleri, and manages to upset Noldorin relations with Alqualonde- and Menegroth for that matter- for centuries. He ticks off Melkor, the most powerful being in Arda, and is so undiplomatic as to slam a door in his face. He ticks off his brothers, and gets himself banished from Tirion. He ticks off the Noldor and loses 3/4 of his people....

Feanor may or may not be a great guy. Unlike certain Mormegils in the crowd, I don't see any great need to villify him. But is definitely the least diplomatic Elf to ever roam Valinor or Middle-Earth- including his sons Caranthir, Celegorm, and Curufin...

So, like it or not:

++ Curufinwe Feanaro Finwion

[Anguirel]

To that I would say...trust diplomats to ruin diplomacy. A straight-talking orator who says what he feels can achieve wonders...

Votes:

Eonwe-3
Osse-1
Feanor-2
Manwe-2

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I, too, vote + + MANWE
But, if one of the Noldor is close to being lynched, I will change my vote to save him.


Do not tell them that! They will use it against you ! (in this case us)

++Manwe

He is to blame !

[the phantom]

trust diplomats to ruin diplomacy. A straight-talking orator who says what he feels can achieve wonders
I completely agree.

And Formendacil, regarding your attack on Feanor-
He ticks off Melkor
Is that bad?
He ticks off his brothers
All of them ticked each other off. Melkor made sure of that.
and gets himself banished from Tirion
Quite right. All of the Noldor are influenced by Morgoth, and yet only Feanor is singled out for severe punishment by the Valar.

For doing what? For not being able to resist the power of the most powerful being in all of Ea? That's hardly a crime.

And the Silmarillion says that when the Valar banished him from Tirion it made Melkor's lies appear to be true.

Brilliant move, Manwe! Way to heal the situation! Make the evil bad guy look like he was right all along!

That's the worst thing you could possibly do! It's as if the Valar wanted to push Feanor down the dark path!

I'm sorry, but there is no way we could've expected Feanor to remain unchanged by Melkor's malice. Melkor is too powerful, and his focus was on Feanor in particular. Feanor was going to be affected, just like Hurin the Steadfast was when exposed to Morgoth.

When Melkor's evil was discovered, the Valar should've tried to undo his lies, but instead they took a course of action that made his lies appear to be true in Feanor's eyes.

So, in other words, they made Feanor's condition, which he could not help, even worse!

After that, what do you expect to happen? Good things?

The Valar are most definitely to blame.

No doubt about it.

No question.

[Anguirel]

Eonwe-3
Osse-1
Feanor-2
Manwe-3

This could be my last update...essays and ultimately sleep beckon. As I say, it would be great if someone intermittently recorded votes so I can blearily see who's to be kicked out early tomorrow morning...

[Firefoot]

I will cast my vote in with the Manwe crowd... Manwe is a thoroughly feckless leader who probably makes more mistakes than good judgments. He gets so wrapped up in pleasing Eru that he forgets to make good decisions. Can't have a chap like this in charge, no sirree.

Besides, Fëanor is one of my favorite Elves, and he makes for interesting scenarios. Why vote him off so early?

++Manwe

[arcticstorm]

I would like to poin out that we look at King Olwe's reaction to Ingwe's attempt to get some ships. I do not think that the problem is the Valar, but the problem is with the King of the Teleri, get rid of him and let them have a new king and everything will be fine.

++Olwe

[Glirdan]

Be rid of the King of the Valar. It's his fault the kinslaying could happen at Alqualonde!! He must be puinshed for the mistake he made. It's not Feanor's fault that he's imperfect. It's not Osse fault that he was forbidden to stay the march of Feanor. It's not Olwe's fault that Feanor attacked him without cause. Be rid of the King of Valar. Down with Manwe!!

++Manwe

P.S. To lazy to type in accents. :rolleyes:

[Boromir88]

Started already! I like this "challenge" stuff Anguirel, and with that I'm going to bandwagon...

++Manwe

Not much of a diplomat, it's basically his way or the highway. And he was the reason behind Feanor rebelling and causing the kinslaying. Sure Feanor did it, but Manwe is like the mob boss behind the scene who doesn't get his hands dirty, but is the true mastermind.

[Gothmog]

Everybody talks about who to blame. Some people want to vote on Manwe for being so hard and, according to them, unjust in Feanors case. They also say Feanor is not to blame: nobody can resist Melkor.

Others blame Feanor his hot temper and for falling so easy in to Melkors net.

Phantom regardin the Finwe's sons:
All of them ticked each other off. Melkor made sure of that.
Exactly! So what is that piece of Melkor-Morgoth Bauglir-**** thing still doing here?

If we vote for Morgoth, then maybe we would be able to save Feanor from his influence. Maybe we'll be able to prevent "slaying of elf by elf". The power of the dark Lord is strong and his arm is long. Let's cut it off before he ruins good elves! Let's discuss who's more guilty than the other later.

I'm sure Morgoth had someinfluence on Valar too...

--Eonwe
++Morgoth

(Eonwe would still be my second choice though)

[the phantom]

Yes, Gothmog, it is tempting to vote Morgoth out, but he is undoubtedly a mover and a shaker. We need those sorts of people.

As far as giving him the boot to save Feanor and the Noldor from his influence, his damage has already been done. He has already sown his seeds of deception. It's too late for that.

What we need to do now is keep the Teleri from resisting the Noldor, since quite obviously the Noldor need to get to Middle Earth to contest the power of Morgoth. Remember, Morgoth is arriving back at his home in Utumno right about now, and he is letting his orcs loose on the Sindarin elves dwelling in Beleriand.

The Noldor are needed there desperately, not only to stop Morgoth, but to help the race of Man rise to its peak.

Voting off Morgoth would not only make for a dull game, but it would also not solve the immediate problem of keeping the elves from killing one another. Either vote out Manwe to keep him from ordering Olwe to withhold his help from Feanor, or vote out Olwe so the Teleri can elect a wiser leader- one who knows it is best to help the friends of the Teleri, and knows to ignore the wishes of Manwe, which inevitably lead to disaster.

[Boromir88]

Voting off Morgoth would not only make for a dull game, but it would also not solve the immediate problem of keeping the elves from killing one another.~the phantom
Yeah, I just want to see Ungoliant and Morgoth go at eachother. That's really the only good reason for keeping them around. And all the drama they cause as the "bad guys." Everyone wrenches over having them stay on, but you know they will stay around.

[the phantom]

The current count, if I'm not mistaken-

Manwe- 6
Eonwe- 2
Feanor- 2
Olwe- 1
Osse- 1
Morgoth- 1

[Anguirel]

Thanks a lot phantom.

For his overbearing attitude to the Noldor and the Teleri and his ineffectiveness as King of Arda, Manwe Sulimo is thrust into the Void! Morgoth is most amused.

Voting closed. Results coming soon.

[Anguirel]

RESULTS OF DAY TWO

With the King of Arda deposed, the Valar settled down in the Ring of Doom to discuss the succession.

"According to the law," Mandos pointed out, "Manwe's closest male relative should ascend the throne."

"But that is Melkor-Morgoth," Varda pointed out. "Surely it would be wiser to allow his Queen to take power?"

"Men will do that in Numenor eventually, and it won't work out too well." Tulkas rolled his eyes. Really, half the time none of them had a clue what Mandos was talking about.

"What about me?" piped up Eonwe.

"What about you? And you're not supposed to be here," Tulkas growled.

"But I'm Manwe's son by Varda."

"Not according to Canon you aren't..." corrected Mandos.

And so the debate raged. As the Valar argued, some, free thinkers like Ulmo and Aule, left in disgust; the others strove on, and dreams struggled with stars, plants with dances. Meanwhile, unnoticed by the squabblers, Ungoliant peaceably ate the Trees, as a cow chews on cud.

~~~

RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE

In the midst of all this madness, Feanor's fiery speeches won over all the Noldor. He and his sons swore thew famous Oath to reclaim the Silmarilli, and named Ingwe and Manwe in witness as a twisted joke. As a body, the Noldor prepared to leave Tirion for better lives across the Sea; their heaven was becoming a hell. There was only one method of crossing the ocean; the Teleri. Many had the demise of the Vanyar fresh in their minds, but Feanor was confident Olwe would agree to his proposal.

"Lo!" he cried to the Sea-King. "We are to leave this land of squabbling! Come with us you may! The perils of Morgoth are as nothing to the freedom that lies ahead..."

"Wait. We come with you? You don't just what to kill us and nick our ships?"

"Why would you think that? We Elves must stick together."

"That lying Mandos...yeah, we'll come, it's not as if anyone's told us not to."

As the fleet departed, Mandos cursed it just for fun.

Given an excellent wind by Uinen and Osse (who had backed Eonwe's rejected claim for Kingship of Arda) the united Noldor-Teler army soon arrived close to the shore. A few ships perished in a bit of random pent-up frustration from Osse, but no one with a name sank. And so it was that the host of the Elves with Tree-light in their eyes arrived in Middle-earth.

The battle with Morgoth's army that followed was named the Dagor-Nan-Pushover, and Morgoth's army was exterminated, though Feanor still managed to get himself burnt to a crisp by Gothmog.

It's Day One in Middle-Earth.

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Elbereth
Ulmo
Mandos, Doom of

NOLDOR

Fingolfin
Finarfin
Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Caranthir
Curufin
Amras
Fingon
Turgon
Aredhel
Finrod
Artanis aka Galadriel
Orodreth
Aegnor

TELERI/SINDAR

Olwe
Thingol
Celeborn
Mablung
Beleg
Daeron
Saeros
Eol

MAIA/ELF

Luthien

MAIA

Melian
Osse
Uinen
Huan
Tilion
Arien

FORCES OF EVIL

Morgoth
Ungoliant
Sauron
Gothmog

The third task: INHERITANCE LAW. Learn from the Valar's mistakes and ensure the High Kingship of the Noldor is passed on smoothly.

[Gothmog]

I would never dream of criticizing you Anguirel, but I sense a tiny bit of biased writing ;)

Anyway: we managed to stop the slaying. That's very good, even if we payed a high prize if you listen to me. We've lost a strong character, the only one who could challenge Morgoth in powers. Well, so be it...

Next task: Inheritance. There's a lot of elves who might think themselves worthy of the title High King of Noldor. There'll be a discussion about who's the most noble to go first and then there'll be the question of wether or not the title should be inherited at all, and if so only father-son or also father-daugther.

I'd say among all elves in ME, Olwe would be the highest. But this title concerns the Noldor alone. So: Finwe was King of all Noldor in the west and Feanor is his eldest son. Feanor could be a strong ruler, but what worries me is some of his sons. But Maedhros is the oldest and he might turn out real fine.

But that oath of Feanor... If he got the power, I fear he would do anything to get his beloved jewels back and that might cause unnecessary suffering.

Fingolfin is a strong and and valiant and Finarfin the wisest. A combination of the three would be the optimum.

I haven't decide who to vote for yet but (and this is hard for me to admit) right now, Feanor is the rightful King.

[Anguirel]

Gothmog, a cause for celebration for you...you've killed Feanor already! It's towards the end of the challenge results.

I hope it isn't too biased. I honestly thought the Elves would band together in the madness. And Manwe's removal will mean more longterm havoc, I assure you...

As will the late devouring of the Trees, actually...though the Sun and Moon will be up soon.

[Gothmog]

I'm SO sorry...*very embarrassed look*

I'll just keep my mouth shut a year or two :(

[Anguirel]

No, please don't! You're a loyal viewer. Also, you've given me an idea.

To make votes more accurately reflect the challenge, would respondents please submit TWO votes-one for an eviction candidate, and the other for their preferred High King of the Noldor.

e.g. (just an example, not real votes)

++TILION, ++AEGNOR

[Gothmog]

Flattery won't get you anywhere Anguirel... What am I saying?? Of course it does! :)

To redeem myself I'll going to put the first votes. For the title I'll vote

++Fingolfin

Not the most imaginative choice but still... A strong leader with great potential and the capability to lead his people vs Morgoth. Also, he has sons who's worthy the title after him.

And to continue with what I already started, my vote for the one to go:

++Curufin

Of reasons I've made clear earlier...

Anguirel:
though Feanor still managed to get himself burnt to a crisp by Gothmog.
*evil laugh* don't mess with villainous Balrogs! :p

[Lord Melkor]

Hmmm, Finarfin or Fingolfin? Though Finarfin is the wisest and would make a fine king in peacetime the Noldor aren't living in Lala-Happyland anymore. They've come to Middle-Earth and there is war to be waged!
Well, it's quite obvious that Fingolfin is the most capable elf to become High King of the Noldor in times of war, no question about it, so....

++ Fingolfin

However, it is clear that the sons of Feanor, violent delinquents as they are, will continue to be a perennial thorn in Fingolfin's side, and none more so than Curufin, who is violent, manipulative, powerhungry and quite possibly insane. He needs to go. Perhaps a freak hunting accident? You know, with Middle-Earth covered in darkness all kinds of accidents can happen. Maybe someone will mistake him for a boar? :p

++ Curufin

[Anguirel]

Fingolfin shows his true colours with this outrageous assault on the crown that cannot be rightfully his! Let's have a closer look at this "paragon of chivalry", Crookback Fin, attempting to usurp his six innocent nephews...

FINGOLFIN OF GLOUCESTER: Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by my brother's death,
And all the clouds that lay upon this house
In the red ire of a Balrog burnt.

The dastardly villain! If we follow the historical precedent, it's clear what he'll do.

1. Detract attention from his own villainy by framing his mediocre younger bother Clarenc...er, I mean, Finarfin...for treason. He will then drown him in Dorwinion wine. No one will care because Finarfin is a bit of a wimp, but Rich...I mean Fingolfin...will be closer to the crown. Obviously we need to thwart this plan by voting off Finarfin. Then we'll keep Fingolfin's military skill yet check his scheming. And no one will miss the old pacifist...

++FINARFIN

2. He will murder several of his nephews and rule until stopped by an even more cunning and relentless claimant. A Henry Tudor character. Now if we can get the Henry Tudor character crowned High King first, all the trouble will be averted.

Clearly, we must elect a lawful heir, or make hypocrites of ourselves. So we need a scion of the senior branch of the House of Finwe. IE, a Son of Feanor. I will inspect each in turn.

Maedhros-a great warrior and a noble and chivalrous elf. Sadly, too noble; he'll be oblivious to Finarfin's evil plotting, and he may not be resourceful enough to deal successfully with emissaries of Morgoth like Sauron.

Maglor-No. Out of the question; too nice and artistic to be spoilt by murderous politics, despite keen intelligence. We should keep him as the splendid prince he is.

Celegorm-Possible. A fine warrior, a great orator, and a handsome figure of a King. But perhaps a little too preoccupied by the pleasures of the chase. It would be like making Orome King of Arda. Too distractible.

Caranthir-good in dealings with other races. A fair and just, if harsh, ruler. Quick to anger, though, and manipulatible on this account.

Curufin-the perfect Henry Tudor model. An excellent plotter, lies so well he can leave Sauron baffled, no mercy on his enemies. Marked out by his great father's especial favour. Would immediately detect any false step by Fingolfin. Good relations with Nogrod (Dwarves are as yet a distant rumour, but will be important later). An opportunistic diplomat. Good taste; no patience with irritating Mary-Sues. A solid line of succession-a baby son has just been born...

Amras-bit of a dark horse, really. Quite a risk. Probably too mucked up by brother's death.

The conclusion-I elect

++CURUFIN

as High King of the Noldor.

[arcticstorm]

I agree with Gothmog's original post, so if Anguiril allows this I would like to propose an Elvish Triumvarate. As is said earlier, the elves need to stick together. Now that Elwe has been found Olwe and the other teleri will gladly follow their brother. I believe that a triumvarate will work in this case, each taking charge of 1/3 of the land and using the palantiri of faenor to communicate with one another.

for leadership: ++Fingolfin, Maedhros, and Thingol

Now for the eviction. I believe that the only thing that is holding the elves back right now ina smooth transition is not a person, no, it is
++Mandos, Doom of
THink about it, once the curse is lifted, the elves of Middle Earth will be able to follow thorugh with their plans and remain united.

[Anguirel]

arctic, your suggestion is sensible but I am not asking you to vote for the rulers of elvendom. The task is simply to elect a High King of the Noldor. There can only be one, though some candidates may listen to the advice of their friends and relatives more than others...

As for your eviction-a good choice, but not one I shall support. I think the Doom spices things up!

[arcticstorm]

ok with that, I sh;ll decide on one high king, and I believe that ++Maedhros deserves a shot at it. He is the oldest son of the last high king, thereby following normal rules of succession. He is also the most noble of feanor's sons. While Fingolfin may have more courage and he may make a good king, I think Maedhros should get the first shot at the throne.

[Anguirel]

VOTES

KINGSHIP

Fingolfin-2
Curufin-1
Maedhros-1

EVICTION

Curufin-2
Finarfin-1
Mandos, Doom of-1

Incidentally-look at the names of those who support Fingolfin and condemn Curufin! Gothmog and Melkor! Clear evidence of Fingolfin's evil true nature...

[Gothmog]

Incidentally-look at the names of those who support Fingolfin and condemn Curufin! Gothmog and Melkor! Clear evidence of Fingolfin's evil true nature...
:D I've always tried to explain that we Balrogs are totally misunderstood. We're really lovely creatures...

A little comment to the voting... I won't budge when it comes to Curufin, unless it proves an impossible task this turn. Which it won't! Lets get rid of him!

About the king: Fingolfin is the natural leader, but if it comes to choose between a son of Feanor, Maedhros is definitely the right choice. Curufin? Bah, you can't be serious? Let the eldest take care of it as it's supposed to be... But Maedhros is the reserv alternative, Fingolfin is the right choice. But if needed to stop Curufin from taking power, I'm prepared to do anything.

[Glirdan]

Turgon. The one who's realm will last the longest. He deserves to be High King of the Noldor early. I mean he's going to be anyway later on, so why not give it to him early? That way he has a longer time to be High King of Noldor and make some serious decisions and stuff.

My election vote

++Turgon

And I'm going to be different on my vote for eviction. I say we get rid of Osse now. If it weren't for his wrath, those boats that sunk with elves names who aren't important never would have happened.

++Osse

[Anguirel]

I'm changing my eviction vote to support Glirdan:

--FINARFIN, ++OSSE

What I didn't mention is that Elenwe was among the drowned Noldor and Teleri. I'd forgotten to put her in at the beginning and I needed a way to subtly deprive Turgon of a wife. So Elenwe's blood is on Osse's hands!

Finarfin can stay for now. If Curufin becomes High King, he'll easily foil Fingolfin's plotting with his craven brother anyway...

VOTES

KINGSHIP

Fingolfin-2
Curufin-1
Maedhros-1
Turgon-1

EVICTION

Curufin-2
Mandos, Doom of-1
Osse-2

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Today I will only be voting, since my arguments are inferior to those allready postet.

++Fingolfin for king ! (Nobody beats Fingolfin)

Well Anguirel I think you made more sence in youre earlyer post, so I will vote:

++Finarfin

[Anguirel]

Mmm. I'll just about accept those votes as reasoned...

VOTES

KINGSHIP

Fingolfin-3
Curufin-1
Maedhros-1
Turgon-1

EVICTION

Curufin-2
Mandos, Doom of-1
Osse-2
Finarfin-1

I'm surprised Maedhros isn't garnering more votes for the Kingship. So much more interesting that one dimensional goody-goody Fingolfin. Like comparing Achilles and Aeneas. (Curufin is Odysseus...)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

If I may join in, I can't believe that one of the Bad Boys (Curufin)
wasn't ejected earlier. He and his bud are nothing but trouble (and
unprincipled in their actions). They are the antithesis of cooperative
action with others to survive. I say "hasta la vista, baby" to Curufin.

As for High King, I'd like to opt for Maedros, but he's too literal and
stubborn in his views, a High King has to be more adaptable. So:
Fingolfin.

[Anguirel]

Tuor, vote like this in future, please:

++FINGOLFIN

++CURUFIN

Makes it a bit easier to see...

Well, the dull as dust Fingolfin is tearing to the top as High King so far...the only question seems to be, can the fascinating, cunning and charismatic Curufin survive? All those of you who defended Feanor should come out in support of his favourite son...

[Alcarillo]

The Noldor need a clever and tough king in this new dangerous land across the sea.

++Curufin

And I'll vote for who gets evicted later.

Edit: 500th post! :D

[Anguirel]

Alcarillo, you are officially my blood-brother.

Incidentally, in the unlikely event that the chosen High King of the Noldor is also evicted, the High Kingship will be abolished...

VOTES

KINGSHIP

Fingolfin-4
Curufin-2
Maedhros-1
Turgon-1

EVICTION:

Curufin-3
Mandos, Doom of-1
Osse-2
Finarfin-1

All supportors of the House of Feanor, I would advise that you support Curufin's bid for the crown-Maedhros will only give it away-and vote to banish the irritating, arrogant sea-Maia Osse, murderer of Elenwe...

Also, I must once more emphasise the utter illegality of Fingolfin's claim. If you accept him as King, you insult the memory of Miriel by declaring her child's children unfit for rule...Fingolfin is a hunchbacked, murderous, usurping uncle. So there!

[Glirdan]

While I agree with getting rid of Osse (I am after all the one who started it!! :D), I don't agree that Curufin should be High King. Give it to Turgon. He's going to be the last High King of the Noldor anyway. Might as well give it to him early so he can exercise his powers earlier. Maybe in this way, they'd be able to defeat Morgoth eariler. Vote Turgon for High King!!!

[Formendacil]

By the laws of inheritance, the eldest son/child (in this case the same thing) of the previous High King inherits. With Finwe dead, it goes to Feanor. With Feanor dead, it goes to Maedhros, so:

++Maedhros, High King of the Noldor

and, since inheritance is the issue of the day, I say we remove old Nolofinwe. He's well-known to have pretensions towards his nephew's throne, and chafes under the rule of someone younger.

++Finwe-Nolofinwe Finwion, for removal from the island.

Terribly sorry, Anguirel et al, if my voting seems more stale this time around, but the new nature of these challenges and such makes things quite a bit less random than before...

[Anguirel]

Hmmm. The Maedhros campaign gets started at last.

Formendacil...I love your mastery of surnames. Completely beyond me!

KINGSHIP

Fingolfin-4
Curufin-2
Maedhros-2
Turgon-1

EVICTION

Curufin-3
Osse-2
Mandos, Doom of-1
Finarfin-1
Fingolfin-1

The voting really says it all. We Feanor-adherents are divided; the Fingolfin-supporting rebels stand together on both issues. We need to establish a definite candidate and target.

Saving Curufin must be a priority. If the Osse campaign does not gather speed, I will endeavour to aid the Finarfin eviction drive; but I would still recommend Osse as the safer option...

The Kingship is also a vital issue. Think what the scheming uncle may do to his nephews once the throne is his! I implore Feanorians back the guile, craft and staying power of Curufin. Remember, he has an heir; Maedhros doesn't...

[Lalaith]

Well I voted for Osse for eviction yesterday and I'll do it again today, anyone who wants my reasons just needs to scroll back.
++OSSE

As for high king...I don't know. Fingolfin challenging Morgoth to single combat was pretty cool you know... that's what I call leading from the front. But I don't want to cross swords with AngMod so early in the game....
Turgon however is horrible. I've always loathed him for what he did to Hurin (ok, will in the future do to Hurin.) Maedros is someone I have a soft spot for, but he has too many issues. The rest of the brothers, while undoubtedly fascinating, would lose their all anti-hero appeal once they became part of the ruling establishment, so I would argue strongly for them to remain glamorously dispossessed.
But what of Fingolfin's son Fingon. What a friend that elf was. And a rift-healer.
So I say skip a generation and go for
++FINGON for king.

[Anguirel]

Lalaith, perceptive as ever, on the anti-hero front...I wonder if you're right...but the only way we'll see is if Curufin ascends to the kingship!

KINGSHIP

Fingolfin-4
Curufin-2
Maedhros-2
Turgon-1
Fingon-1

EVICTION

Curufin-3
Mandos, Doom of-1
Osse-3
Finarfin-1
Fingolfin-1

Osse is now the save-Curufin eviction candidate. Of the two Feanorian brothers, I still exhort you to back Curufin, only founder of House Feanor's third generation...

[arcticstorm]

I am calling for those of us in the Feanor camp who voted for the kingship of Curufin, to rethink their strategy and rally behind the older brother Maedhros, so that the kingship does not depart from the house of Feanor.

Later tonight I may change my vote from the doom of Mandos just so that I can save Curufin

[Anguirel]

But if Maedhros is High King, it will depart from the house of Feanor, because he's so noble he'll give up the crown to his uncle soon...I say Curufin is the Feanorian continuity candidate!

Interesting that Fingolfin's sons are both candidates. Deployed by the machiavel Fingolfin to split his opponents' vote...

I'm off for tonight. Voting will close tomorrow, 7:30 AM GMT, as it did yesterday...

[Boromir88]

I agree with Anguirel here...

For king- ++Curufin

Kick out...

++Osse, he's just an Ulmo wannabe.

[the phantom]

EVERYONE READ THIS POST, IT MIGHT MAKE YOU RECONSIDER YOUR CHOICES
But if Maedhros is High King, it will depart from the house of Feanor, because he's so noble he'll give up the crown to his uncle soon...
I don't think that is true.

Because we managed to avoid the kinslaying and all that, Feanor and his sons never ditched Fingolfin's host and left them in Valinor. Because of that, Maedhros has none of the guilt that he had in the book, and the people of Fingolfin have none of the emnity they had towards Feanor's house in the book. Those two things are what made Maedhros think it wise to hand over the crown in the book- but we avoided those two things, didn't we?

If we elect Maedhros now, he will not hand over the crown. He's the rightful king, and he won't feel bad about taking the crown.

He should definitely be picked before Fingolfin, because Fingolfin is probably going to be dying soon. For the sake of stability, we need a longer lived king.

And honestly, how can you pick Fingon or Turgon before Maedhros? Though after Fingolfin's death Fingon was considered the "high king", it is quite obvious in the book that Maedhros was the leader of the forces of good. Remember, there was an alliance of men, elves, and dwarves that nearly defeated Morgoth in the Fifth Battle of Beleriand, Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

Do you remember what that alliance was called? Was it called Friends of Fingon? No. Was it called Turgon's Triumvirate? No.

It was called the UNION OF MAEDHROS!

Maedhros was Morgoth's primary opponent, even while Fingolfin was alive. From the Silmarillion-
When nearly one hundred years had run since the Dagor Aglareb, Morgoth endeavoured to take Fingolfin at unawares (for he knew of the vigilance of Maedhros); and he sent forth an army....
As you can see, Maedhros appears to be more on the ball than even Fingolfin.

Maedhros is, without a doubt, the logical choice for king.

And another thing- don't worry about the relationships between the House of Feanor and Thingol, because the griefs that were between them in the books did not happen here. We prevented the kinslaying! :)

And so, for king...

+ + Maedhros

Our task is appointing a king, and simply electing Maedhros will solve that. The ONLY WAY we'll have TROUBLE with the task of appointing a KING is if we PASS OVER Feanor's house, thus causing a DISPUTE in the claim.

LISTEN to me, everyone. There is not a good reason to pass over Maedhros, and so if we unwisely do so PROBLEMS will come of it.

You NEED to vote for MAEDHROS for KING.

[Boromir88]

phantom makes sense...plus I like bandwagoning and being so indecisive...

--Curufin
++Maedhros

Though I still say kick out Osse. All the Maiar and Valar try to control everyone, who do they think they are?

[Glirdan]

I just reconsidered my vote for High King of the Noldor.

--Turgon ++Maedhros

Yes phantom, you brought me into the light. Now everyone bandwagon to me and vote off Osse!!

[the phantom]

As far as who to evict, yes, Osse is probably a good choice. He's always been a problem.

But let's think carefully. This is the first time where we've been able to evict whoever we want without having to consider the task of the day. Electing Maedhros will solve the kingship task, and so we are free to evict absolutely anyone.

I would certainly vote for Osse before Curufin- the other candidate who has been getting several votes.

In the book there was a lot of hostility towards the sons of Feanor from pretty much everyone. Wouldn't you like to give the sons a chance to live a normal life? We avoided the kinslaying, and so avoided all of the hostile feelings that existed in Beleriand. I say we give the sons of Feanor a chance- the chance that the Doom of Mandos never gave them.

This is part of the Doom of Mandos-
On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well...
We NEED to VOTE OFF THE DOOM OF MANDOS.

It is extremely unfair.

The Valar let Melkor loose amongst the elves, and when he influences them for the worse, they let him escape and punish the elves instead of heal them, which of course makes things worse.

And then when the elves understandably go to leave Valinor, Mandos curses them!

The elves don't do what he wants because of the stupid actions of his own kind (the Valar), and so he curses the elves for it! What an unfair, arrogant jerk!

I personally think that the Doom of Mandos needs to go.

It is not right, and it will continually cause problem after problem.

But unless everyone agrees to vote for it, I will probably have to vote for Osse to save Curufin.

Also, Aredhel might be a good choice to vote off.

If we get rid of her then there will be no Maeglin, and so he will not be captured by Morgoth and forced to reveal the location of Gondolin.

TO ALL OF YOU WHO VOTED TO EVICT CURUFIN- would you consider Aredhel as a compromise target? I'm sure you care deeply about the city of Gondolin. If we get rid of Aredhel, we could save the city.

This could be our only chance. We don't know what challenges and circumstances we will face the rest of the game. We might not get an opportunity to get rid of Maeglin or Eol before Gondolin falls.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

In the midst of all this madness, Feanor's fiery speeches won over all the Noldor. He and his sons swore thew famous Oath to reclaim the Silmarilli, and named Ingwe and Manwe in witness as a twisted joke.

Maedhros swore the oath! Then It will create problems with him as king!

What will Maedhros do when one of the Silmarill's is taken from Morgroth's crown ?

Do not vote Maedhros !

[Celuien]

"Wait. We come with you? You don't just what to kill us and nick our ships?"

"Why would you think that? We Elves must stick together."

"That lying Mandos...yeah, we'll come, it's not as if anyone's told us not to."

As the fleet departed, Mandos cursed it just for fun.


This clearly shows that Mandos is nothing but trouble. He capriciously cursed the fleet with absolutely no reason behind it. Furthermore, he lied to the Teleri in an effort to cause conflict with the Noldor. He has to go.

For eviction:
++MANDOS, DOOM OF

And the best way to avoid a challenge to the kingship is probably to follow the generally recognized line of inheritance, so

For High King:
++MAEDHROS

[the phantom]

Maedhros swore the oath! Then It will create problems with him as king!
I don't think it will.

As long as Melkor's got the jewels, the oath is great because it will ensure that the Sons of Feanor will oppose Melkor to the death, and if the eldest of the sons is king then everyone will follow in unity.

The oath doesn't really cause trouble until one of the Silmarils is taken by Thingol, who refuses to take his wife's advice and give it back.

But we can take care of him later. ;)

I would encourage everyone to avoid controversy and strife and vote Maedhros in as king.

I would also encourage everyone to get rid of the-

+ + Doom of Mandos

It obviously causes more trouble than Curufin could ever cause. Don't vote for Curufin, vote to give the Doom of Mandos the boot.

[Formendacil]

The Kingship is also a vital issue. Think what the scheming uncle may do to his nephews once the throne is his! I implore Feanorians back the guile, craft and staying power of Curufin. Remember, he has an heir; Maedhros doesn't...

If by "heir" you mean "son or daughter" then you or correct. If you mean "legitimate successor", then Maedhros has no lack, and with these being Elves, there is no need for lifespan to be a concern. They are, in order* (counting only Elves or those who choose Elvenkind...):

Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Celebrimbor, Caranthir, Amrod, Amras, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Idril, Earendil, Elrond, Elladan/Elrohir, Aredhel, Maeglin, Finarfin, Finrod, Aegnor, Angrod, Orodreth, Gil-Galad, Finduilas, Galadriel, Celebrian.

As you can see, no lack of heirs.

*According to ONE possible geneaology

[Gothmog]

the Phantom:
As long as Melkor's got the jewels, the oath is great because it will ensure that the Sons of Feanor will oppose Melkor to the death, and if the eldest of the sons is king then everyone will follow in unity.
Yes, but I'm afraid it will also ensure that the sons of Feanor oppose Melkor to the death of 99% of the other elves. But true is that if the eldest son is chosen, there'll be less complaining. So why choose Curufin? No, go for Fingolfin or Maedhros. It's your choice, I'll stick with Fingolfin.

I really do hope that, as some people seem so confident about, the sons of Feanor will get an other kind of life without the kinslaying. I don't think that will save Curufin though... I'm afraid he's lost and has to go before he makes something stupid.

(Yikes! I got into a sig! Never thought that day would come :D Thanks Anguirel...I think...)

[Alcarillo]

I'm a ghost prince!

Anyways, I don't think we should evict either Osse or the Doom of Mandos. Why? Because they provide a lot of angst and drama. Who wants to watch an episode of Survivor without angst and drama? Certainly not me.
++Elbereth

The story has moved on to Beleriand and out of Aman. And with Manwe gone, all she does is sit up there on Taniquetil, just watching Middle-earth. She's already made the stars, so now I just don't see what she's good for anymore.

[the phantom]

If I'm not mistaken, the current count is-

Give the Kingship to...

Maedhros- 6
Fingolfin- 4
Curufin- 2
Fingon- 1


Get rid of...

Osse- 4
Doom of Mandos- 3
Curufin- 3
Elbereth- 1
Finarfin- 1
Fingolfin- 1


That's not too bad.

As I stated here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=422187&postcount=114), Maedhros is without a doubt the best choice for King of the Noldor.

As far as who to vote out, I'd really like to see the Doom of Mandos kicked out, but Osse is better than most of the other choices.

Tomorrow and the next day, be looking for an opportunity to get rid of Aredhel before Maeglin is born.

Why Aredhel and not Eol, you ask?

Because, we need Eol to stay alive long enough to make the sword Anglachel, which will be instrumental in not only killing Glaurung, but is also mentioned in some of Tolkien's writings as being the sword that will, in the Last Battle, deal Melkor his final death blow.

Now, I can't remember right off hand when Anglachel was forged, so if anyone finds evidence that it has already been made then please feel free to vote off Eol instead of Aredhel. But we need to get rid of one of them before Maeglin is born if we want to save Gondolin.

[Anguirel]

Voting closed.

The rightful High King of the Noldor, Maedhros, has been crowned. He at once magnanimously forgives the rebellions of his uncle, cousins and brother.

Meanwhile, the sea-Maia Osse has been successfully divorced by his wife in a high-profile case, and is dispatched to the Void!

Results up soon.

[Anguirel]

RESULTS OF DAY ONE (M-e)

Olwe looked yearningly back across the sea. Today it seemed strangely calm. Was a storm about to strike?

Suddenly a veritable whirlpool came into being; and its centre was the Maia Osse. Behind him were some fifty barracuda in legal wigs. Uinen could be noticed to one side, smugly putting on her make-up.

At last Osse cried out in despair, "Alright! Alright! I'll pay the damages. She can have the house, and I'll, *sniff*, go and join Manwe in the void."

The barracuda retreated and a squadron of tough police dogfish led Osse off. Uinen smiled. It was clear that she had become another emancipated woman...

~~~

RESULTS OF DAY ONE (M-e)

Maedhros, meanwhile, was duly enthroned and crowned High King of the Noldor. He summoned his uncle, two cousins and brother to appear before him. Fingolfin shuddered. What could this violent Son of Feanor be thinking of doing to him? After all, he had planned to lock up Maedhros and Curufin in a tower and then...ah...well, anyway...

Maedhros took him by surprise. The High King shook his cousins' hands warmly, bowed to his uncle, and embraced and kissed his brother.

"Thou art all forgiven, friends, and I shall bestow lands and kingships upon you..."

Later that day came a hooded messenger from Morgoth to parley for the return of a Silmaril. Maedhros consented, but persuaded by Curufin plotted an ambush. Morgoth plotted a more extreme one. The guard of Maedhros were destroyed, and he was captured! In the interim, poor Maglor had the crown foisted upon him.

Yet Fingon, moved as ever by love and respect for his cousin, rescued him with the help of Celegorm and Huan the wonder-hound (since Eagles seemed to be mysteriously absent, other talking animals had to be employed...) And the High King returned to his people.

In that hour did the Sun and Moon rise, bright and beautiful beyond words.

An emissary came from Thingol, and Finrod and Artanis answered it. There the lands allotted to the Noldor were decided, though Maedhros and the princes had taken them already, and Artanis loved Celeborn and became Galadriel, leaving her people.

Finrod found Nargothrond and Turgon Gondolin. Both were built in a day.

Finally, out of the east came there news of approaching unsightly folk; the Dwarves, and later, the Atani, Men...

It's Day Two in Middle-earth.

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Elbereth
Ulmo
Mandos, Doom of

NOLDOR

Fingolfin
Finarfin
Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Celebrimbor
Caranthir
Curufin
Amras
Fingon
Turgon
Idril
Aredhel
Finrod
Orodreth
Aegnor

TELERI/SINDAR

Olwe
Thingol
Celeborn
Galadriel
Mablung
Beleg
Daeron
Saeros
Eol

MAIA/ELF

Luthien

MAIA

Melian
Uinen
Huan
Tilion (with Moon)
Arien (with Sun)

DWARVES

Azaghal of Belegost
Telchar of Nogrod
Mim the Petty-dwarf
Khim
Ibun

MEN

Balan/Beor
Baran
Bereg
Marach
Amlach
Haldad
Haleth
Haldar

FORCES OF EVIL

Morgoth
Ungoliant
Sauron
Gothmog

The fourth challenge: EDUCATION. Teach the Men and Dwarves that they should be nice Elf-friends, and not ally with nasty Morgoth.

[WaynetheGoblin]

++gothmog destroy evil.

[Lord Melkor]

++Thingol

Remove Thingol, the snobby, human-hating, isolationist ruler of Doriath. Thingol's contempt for humanity reflects very poorly upon the elven race as a whole, especially with Thingol being the most powerful king in Beleriand. Removing him so he can make way for a more human-friendly ruler who will allow them inside Dorath will do much to improve Human-Elven relationships. I don't really know who should succeed him, but considering the fact that there are bits of lemon peel floating down the Sirion who would make a better king of Doriath it really isn't much of a concern I feel.

[Lalaith]

I was all set to vote off Yavanna. Soppy tree-hugger who probably wears a lot of cheese-cloth and tie-dye, and clearly sees men and dwarves as a threat to her ickle fuwwy animals.
But then I saw that AngMod had removed her from the lists....so...I've decided to agree with Lord Melkor, particularly as I'm ethically opposed to isolationism.
++Thingol


On the subject of which, I'll be gunning for horrible Turgon sooner rather than later. And as for getting rid of Aredhel - *tsk*, phantom, where are your production values? This is about making an exciting reality tv series, not "lets give the Noldor a really easy life."

[The Saucepan Man]

The fourth challenge: EDUCATION. Teach the Men and Dwarves that they should be nice Elf-friends, and not ally with nasty Morgoth.Yes, Thingol could be fairly xenophobic. But he was not the worst. Who was it who said:

If the Men of Hithlum are so wild and fell, of what sort are the women of that land? Do they run like deer clad only in their hair?

Perhaps the worst insult that an Elf could throw at a Man. Ladies and gentleman, I give you the most xenophobic Elf of all time:

++ SAEROS

All Elves can be pretty snooty and superior at times. But surely he must be the most snooty and pompous of them all. He exemplifies all that I dislike in Elvenkind. Make an example of him, and perhaps his fellows will show a little more understanding. Indeed, without his counselling, it is quite possible that Thingol will look more favourably on those of other races. Certainly, with Saeros out of the way, Turin is going to get (and cause) a lot less grief when he comes along.

[Alcarillo]

If we get rid of Turgon we make it possible for Beren to only need mom's permission for Luthien's hand in marriage, probably without the need for a Silmaril. No Silmaril in Doriath = No kinslaying. And because Thingol is already gone, we won't get too see him get chopped up by minimum-wage dwarves. We lose a lot of the drama if we get rid of Thingol. And did not Melian's Girdle fail when Thingol died? This brings up an oppurtunity for orcs to roam through Doriath. Luthien won't be allowed outside! And Beren will never find her, and that means no Elwing, no Kings of Numenor!

Thingol is clearly an important part of the story. Take him away, and the other two kinslayings won't happen, Luthien won't meet Beren, and no Kings of Numenor will ever exist, whose dramatic woe-filled lives we will never read about here in the Seventh Age. Keep Thingol, for he is the creator of woe and misfortune!

[Glirdan]

Both arguments from Alca and SpM are good, but I'm going to have to side with SpM on this one. At least Thingol allowed Beren to marry Luthien. And who was the one that let Turin stay in Doriath and demanded that his mother and sister go live there as well? Thingol. Saeros is a no good elf who deserved the death he got. (well, will get :rolleyes: ) I say get rid of Saeros.

++Saeros

[Lord Melkor]

Tsssk, tsssk. You silly people seem to have forgotten one thing: If Thingol is *cough* 'removed from the game' so to speak who will succeed him? That's right, Luthien! And we all know Luthy likes to get down n dirty with Mortal Men ;). I'm sure removing Thingol and replacing him Luthien will dramatically improve Elven-Human relationships. Sure, Saeros is an inflated, xenophobic windbag, but he's ultimately a small fish. Remove the inept Thingol and watch the number of Human-Elven relationships soar! :p

[Alcarillo]

Keeping the education challenge in mind, I shall vote off Bereg.

++Bereg

He spreads dissent among men wherever he goes, telling rumors that the Gods in the West are merely elvish lies. Those who listened to him passed back over the mountains and into the East. Who knows how many possible Elf-friends were lost at that moment?

Question to Ang: Is it possible for multiple evictions? I suggest that we get rid of Bereg, Saeros, and any others who can create hatred between Men and Eldar.

Edit: And will Silmarillion Survivor include the Akallabeth?

[Anguirel]

Ties result in mass evictions, yes...

Wayne, I'm not going to regard that as a valid reason. Come on, old chap, you can do better than that. It's two words long!

VOTES

Thingol-2
Saeros-2
Bereg-1

As for my own vote, relating particularly to the phantom's campaign against Aredhel, I am in agreement with Lalaith-

And as for getting rid of Aredhel - *tsk*, phantom, where are your production values? This is about making an exciting reality tv series, not "lets give the Noldor a really easy life."

Exactly. Things have been too simple for the Noldor (admittedly thanks to radical but wise decisions) up till now. To stop the birth of Maeglin would be a barren trade of characterisation for hunky-doriness. It would also destroy any hope of redememption for my favourite character, Lomion, the Child of Twilight, the bearer of Anguirel, friend of Salgant...oh, how I wish Tolkien had written more on him...

I sympathise somehat with Thingol, and if he is voted off now Beren and Luthien will be a radically different story, either more bland or more dark, I'm not quite sure which. In any case, I propose:

++TURGON. He's performed his main service by founding Gondolin, and his highhanded behaviour to Hurin and Huor (yes, you can stay here and die, no, I'm not going to let you into my city Hurin, you can yell "Remember the Fen of Serech" as hard as you can, I ain't backin' down) will eventually come to represent the essence of failure of Man/Elf relations-incomprehension, hauteur, lack of empathy.

Maeglin (born soon) will make a fine successor to him, and will never betray a city he is King of...in the interim Idril can be another fine example of feminine government.

EDIT: Alca, fraid not. This game stops with the end of the Quenta Silmarillion and the drowning of Beleriand.

[Lord Melkor]

Ah, one last point: Remember that we must also take Dwarven relationships with the Elves into this and then Thingol's removal becomes even more necessary. No Thingul means no insulted Dwarves, no insulted Dwarves means no war between Elves and Dwarves and no war means happy relations.

[Lalaith]

An excellent proposal, my dear Anguirel. I stand in your debt: I had not expected the pleasure of an assault on Turgon so early in our little adventure.
--THINGOL

++TURGON My least favourite elf. Ever.

[arcticstorm]

Now Ang, according to you Maeglin would not betray the city he is king over, while this is true, if he becomes king over the city, he will marry Idril. thereby preventing the birth of Earendil and the intervention of the Valar. Turgon the epitome of bad man/elf relationships? Surely you jest. He will be giving his daughter in marriage to a man. I tend to agree the Saeros or Bereg are the two biggest threats to this challenge. and if we can rid ouselves of both of them so be it. But I will attempt to save both Turgon and Thingol. As they are both true lovers of mankind later on. That being my first priority, I will evict Saeros first.

++Saeros

[Gothmog]

So many wise men and women have spoken before me, so because of a lack of time I'll just vote and lean on the others arguments.

++Saeros

I've always disliked him, and to save Elwe Singollo and Turgon the Wise is of course important...

[Alcarillo]

The game would be alot more interesting if Idril sat for a time upon Gondolin's throne. Come on, don't you want to see a woman rule for once? And then when Maeglin weasels his way into marriage with her, we can be sure to see a love affair between Idril and Tuor.

--Bereg
++Turgon

[the phantom]

If we are trying to help Men, I'm not sure we should get rid of Turgon.

He had a warm relationship with Hurin and Huor, and mercifully allowed them to return to their people. Had he not done this, the all-important Turin and Tuor would never have been born. That would really throw a wrench into the world. We need Turin and Tuor.

Say what you want about Turgon, but he was friendly to the race of Man. He even allowed a man to marry his only daughter without complaining, which is much more than you can say for Thingol, who tried to get Beren killed!

There is no way you should vote off Turgon before Elwe (Thingol).

I'm willing to accept Saeros as a compromise, but if you don't vote for Saeros certainly don't give Turgon the boot before Thingol.

[Lord Melkor]

Tsssk, and the Dwarves get ignored as always. :rolleyes: Very well, but don't complain when our vertically-challenged friends start embedding their axes in pointy-eared heads because some fool Elven King said something uncouth about some Dwarf's mother.

[arcticstorm]

We are not ignoring the dwarves, as long as Eol is still with us, we will have a mediator between the elves and dwarves. And with the kinslaying prevented, he has nothing against the noldor. so we have our mediator.

[The Saucepan Man]

And remember that Saeros was a counsellor of Thingol. Given Saeros' attitude towards Men, it is hardly likely that his attitude towards Dwarves will be any better. Remove Saeros and you remove a poisonous xenophobic influence from Thingol's ear.

[Celuien]

Idril on the throne of Gondolin would be a fascinating prospect, but I don't want to risk wiping Earendil out of existence. I don't think that Turgon is responsible for conflict between Elves, Men and Dwarves for reasons that have already been pointed out. And as I recall, Thingol's problems with the Dwarves only occured after he had the Silmaril, so I think we still have time to work on that problem.

The arguments presented against Saeros have been pretty convicing, so I'll agree with what's been said and vote

++SAEROS.

[Eonwe]

i am truely shocked. verily i say to you, you are of small mind if you think turgon is to be hated and branded with that dispicable title of "least favorite elf. Ever". i would first like to hear some sound evidence of blight on teh character of our great lord of gondonlin, the last bastion of strength and definance to morgoth, foe of the world.

as for his merrits, those are plain. established fairest city in middle-earth. ruled with a benevolent hand. showed mercy to hurin and huor. came (completley unexpected although completely needed) to the aid of maedhros. fell in honorable death defending his people. grandfathered teh savior of middle-earth, eariendil. thismuch is plain, and i don't think it warrents these grossly outrageous character assasin's blows.

as for who to send to morgoth, you were on the right track back there. i ask you, who was the only one to come to open war with the dwarves. who was it that allowed no men into his lands and fiefs. who dealt most highhandedly in all middle-earth? the answer to all three of these quetions is Thingol. the damage to dwarves is plain, his armies killed them. the damage to men comes through dealing coldly and inhospitably with teh father's of men. look at the great hieghts men assended too under the tutalige of nom. where else could they ahve trod with the grace and beauty that comes from elvin knowledge, if thingol had opened his lands to them? how might the armies of the noldor have been swelled if men were provided with safe domains to rest and recover from their dark past, instead of teh mean dwellings, constantly overrun with orcs, provided in stead?

as for Saeros, how is king of beleriand. i believe that would be thingol. and how are decisions made in a monarchy? i believe by teh king. thingol has proved a rash, proud ruler in his dealing with beren (insidentally, the fates of middle-earth were tied directly to this man, who thingol scourned and regected). Im sure that a freaking maia's voice of reason more than offset Saeros' "poisonous xenophobic influences", and thingol still managed to make bad decitions. there is were teh root lies! strike at the roots!

++Thingol must go.

[Anguirel]

Voting closed.

Thingol-2
Saeros-5
Turgon-3

Saeros is chosen to be cast forth!

Results up soon.

[Anguirel]

RESULTS OF DAY TWO (M-e)

Saeros is banished from Beleriand. He attempts to take ship to Valinor, but the liberated feminist Uinen senses a male chauvinistic pig and sends him directly to Mandos.

No one in Doriath cares particularly. Thingol has a lot of other counsellors. Counsellors are trained to tell the King what he likes to hear, and in this case, to an Elf they tell him that Men must be excluded. Melian makes a cryptic comment about exceptions being possible but nobody listens...

RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE

Finrod, out hunting with Maedhros and Maglor, befriended the folk of Beor, and they dwelt near Hithlum.

However, the folk of Marach, following them, were deceived by spies of Morgoth, and Bereg of the House of Beor was persuaded by them. Only Amlach, who had happened to bump into a Morgothian doppelganger of himself one stressful morning, resisted the Dark Lord's lure...none of the Men who went east were seen again.

The Haladin were turned back by Thingol, and set upon by Orcs; and Haldad and Haldar were killed before Caranthir rescued Haleth and the remainder. They were granted lands in Brethil eventually...

As for the Dwarves, they made no alliance with the Elves, and none with Morgoth; yet they traded with two smiths among the Elves, Curufin and Eol.

Talking of Eol...Aredhel, on her spirited wanderings, was checked in Nan Elmoth, and so stopped by. Marriage resulted in Maeglin. But Aredhel gave him the name Lomion in secret.

Ha ha! Maeglin is born, and there's nothing any of you cowards can do about it!

Meanwhile, the power of Morgoth waxes greatly. It is said he prepares for a sortie; he has received more rebel Maia from the war in Valinor, and his creations grow ever more horrible...

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Elbereth
Ulmo
Mandos, Doom of

NOLDOR

Fingolfin
Finarfin
Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Celebrimbor
Caranthir
Curufin
Amras
Fingon
Turgon
Idril
Aredhel
Maeglin
Finrod
Orodreth
Aegnor

TELERI/SINDAR

Olwe
Thingol
Celeborn
Galadriel
Mablung
Beleg
Daeron
Eol

MAIA/ELF

Luthien

MAIA

Melian
Uinen
Huan
Tilion (with Moon)
Arien (with Sun)

DWARVES

Azaghal of Belegost
Telchar of Nogrod
Mim the Petty-dwarf
Khim
Ibun

MEN

Barahir
Bregolas
Hador
Galdor
Halmir
Haldir

FORCES OF EVIL

Morgoth
Ungoliant
Sauron
Gothmog
Eonwe
Curunir
Glaurung

Task the third: RESISTANCE. Try to stop the ravaging of the lands of Men.

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Sauron.

The fool can't do anything right whatsoever. Just the other day he tried to kill a group of elves by transforming into a large boulder.

That couldn't move on its own.

The elves were uphill.

To make a long story short, the moron rolled downhill and crushed his squad of orcs! If he can only kill his teammates, he has no purpose! Besides, he can't do much else.

[Lalaith]

*scans tribe lists*
Very interesting, Sir AngMod. You believe that Curunir turned towards the darkness so early?

[The Saucepan Man]

I notice that Eonwe, presumably lacking a firm hand from Manwe, has also turned to the dark side ...

[Lalaith]

So he is...

or rather so he has. Sorry.

[Anguirel]

Eonwe's treachery lends a perfect excuse to be rid of him. Morgoth's armies are massively strong, but at least without the ex-Herald the Eldar and Edain will have a hope...

++EONWE

[Lalaith]

if he becomes king over the city, he will marry Idril. thereby preventing the birth of Earendil and the intervention of the Valar.

Why really, Alcarillo. Are you saying the princess of Gondolin, the woman who fought Maeglin "like a tigress" on the battlements of the burning city, is just part and parcel of the inheritance, a passive flower ripe for the picking? That she has no free will or choice of her own?
Pshaw. Idril Celebrindal will fall in love with and marry Tuor no matter who is king.

[Anguirel]

Unless, of course, a certain Maeglin fan who's doing the write-ups finds any possible excuse to make her fall in love with Maeglin instead. In which case, well...who needs Earendil anyway?

[arcticstorm]

I would like to say that the most logical choice to prevent the raveging of the lands of men is to get rid of the one who is doing the raveging, in seems like the biggest raveger in the entire game is none other than the illustriius dragon Glaurung.
so for now I will vote for him, and may change it later.
++Glaurung
but we need to be careful, soon some exile Valar from the war in Valinor may join with Melkor, in that case we will need to watch otherwise the elves and men will be doomed.

[Lord Melkor]

Hmmm, an interesting challenge: To protect the lands of Men we need military power and lots of it, I'd say! Therefore it is imperative that we remove those Elven lords who'd prefer to sit in their marble halls and drink expensive wines while watching young elf ladies dance before them, while the poor Edain are being slaughtered in their mud hovels. Therefore I'd say we should remove either Turgon or Thingol, the two prime isolationists of Middle-Earth. This would also allow their daughters (either Idril or Luthien) to ascend to the throne, giving the male-dominated Elven society a much needed feminine touch. I'm sure these powerful, strongwilled and active ladies will waste no time in sending military forces to protect the Edain. Therefore I'd say:

++ Thingol

Though Turgon is fine with me as well. :p

[The Saucepan Man]

In this case, and contrary to my previous voting pattern, I would prefer to go straight for the organ grinder rather than bothering with his various monkeys.

There is one "person" with whom the ravaging buck ultimately stops, and that is Morgoth. We may try to take away his means of ravaging, but he will undoubtedly come up with alternative, possibly more deadly, means. If, however, we strike for the central command centre and succeed, all of his agents of ravagement will be thrown into disarray.

No doubt, in time, a new dark lord will emerge. Quite possibly another of the Valar will be tempted to evil and take command of Morgoth's forces. But that will take time, and buying the Men and Elves sufficient time to organise their resistance is vital here.

So no messing about from me. My vote goes straight to the heart of the enemy:

++ MORGOTH

... we need to be careful, soon some exile Valar from the war in Valinor may join with Melkor, in that case we will need to watch otherwise the elves and men will be doomed.Quite so. The last thing that they need is two renegade Valar on their case. Taking out Morgoth substantially reduces the chances of that happening.

[Lalaith]

Some powerful arguments here. I need to consider.
I'm also rather intrigued as to how Ang is going to overcome the incest issue vis a vis his uncanonical plans for Maeglin and his first cousin...

[arcticstorm]

Sauce, you make a lot of sense, I have been trying to treat a symptom without tackeling the sickness.

--Glaurung ++Morgoth

[Anguirel]

Incest? Pah. A bit of cousinage is nothing. The father's side of my family is riddled with it!

Besides, Tolkien's statement of the Elven condemnation of incest (or simply relationships between cousins) is pretty contradictory.

There she was often in the company of the sons of Feanor, her kin; but to none was her heart's love given.

Implies it could have been, does it not? Besides, I feel things came pretty close, particularly with Celegorm, a fellow hunter whom she was searching for eagerly when she strayed into Nan Elmoth.

Then there is Celebrimbor's unrequited love for Galadriel-a cousin and a generation older than him.

Finally-and this one actually occurred-Arwen did indeed "wed to kin so near", indeed, was required to do so by fate to reconcile the bloodlines of the Eldar and Edain. She was Aragorn's great-great-and-the-rest-of-'em-aunt!

I implore that Morgoth not be voted off, incidentally. Remember the viewing figures. A warning again-if Morgoth goes, more than one Valar will fill his power vacuum...it would be a mere short-term victory. Vote for the irritating and pretentious Eonwe!

[The Saucepan Man]

I implore that Morgoth not be voted off, incidentally.If you ask me, our beloved AngMod has been having far too easy a time of it recently. I think that it's time to start making things a little hard for him.

Remember the viewing figures.In my view, a scramble for leadership of the dark forces would make fascinating viewing.

A warning again-if Morgoth goes, more than one Valar will fill his power vacuum...it would be a mere short-term victory.Even better for the audience figures. Evil never permits itself to be led by committee. There can only be one Dark Lord. A showdown between two or more renegade Valar for the top spot would provide even greater entertainment. And, while the candidates were vying for Dark Lordship, the denizens of Beleriand would have even more time to organise their resistance.

:p

[Anguirel]

This is awful! At this rate, the Silmarillion will have a completely happy ending! Prevent this literary banditry!

Must I remind everyone that with no Morgoth, we will have no amusing Curse upon the Children of Hurin?

And Saucie, leadership contests among evil aren't that interesting because all the candidates have similar methods, aims and characters. Dominate and/or destroy the world-that's it.

Now power vacuums on the good side are more interesting, because we know details about the psyche of different candidates and there is real variation. If a leader has to go

--EONWE

then let it be

++TURGON. Then the armies of Gondolin will come to the aid of Men. Maybe.

[The Saucepan Man]

At this rate, the Silmarillion will have a completely happy ending!Ah, but it's your job to prevent that happening, Ang. And I don't see why we should make it easy for you. ;)

[Gothmog]

Saucepan Man:If you ask me, our beloved AngMod has been having far too easy a time of it recently. I think that it's time to start making things a little hard for him.

I've been giving him an hard time from the start, but it has resulted in nothing so far. But now I'm back from a 1 day break and prepared to take up the fight once more :p

Thou speakest truly wise, the sauciest of panmen... A fight between to rivaling dark forces would be quite spectacular. So let's do like the romans, give the masses blood.

arcticstorm:I have been trying to treat a symptom without tackeling the sickness.

And this is something I've been trying to explain days ago. There's a risk that, like the hydra, two heads will grow out to replace the one we cut off, but still that will buy us time enough to organize a defence consisting of the free people of ME. Also, the diminished risk of valar and maia falling to the dark side has to be taken into consideration.

Morgoth is the source to all evil powers, it's he who created monsters like dragons and Carcharoth. Maybe we can prevent the creation of some dark creatures? For example, has anyone seen Ancalagon and his fellow winged dragons yet? No!

Therefor, lets stop evil in its path. It will create disorder in the ranks and a battle of the inheritance of the title as the most evil, wretched creature in Arda will begin.

++Morgoth Bauglir

Vote the only possible way! Vote for the foe of the world, all ours enemy nr 1! Vote for Melko!

[Anguirel]

Votes

Sauron-1
Thingol-1
Morgoth-3
Turgon-1

[Lalaith]

So let's do like the romans, #

well given that Ang is already trying to make like the ancient Egyptians, why not?

[Gothmog]

I'm sorry if I'm being slow here but: exactly what part of the ancient Egyptians doings are we talking about here? Not put 200 layers of bandage on people I guess? Or building those giant triangular, pointed houses with to thick walls and to few windows? :)

[Lalaith]

The part where they married their siblings...(I'm just teasing him btw, I know it's not the same thing)

[Anguirel]

I believe Lalaith takes issue with my flawless defence of Elves canonically marrying cousins...and hence refers you to the Ptolemies (who were in fact, of course, Greek...no hard feelings Lalaith)

[Lalaith]

No hard feelings at all, sweetie...especially as the Ptolemies were in their marriage customs merely adhering to old Egyptian customs...Rameses II for example married his sister and three of his daughters.

But this is all becoming not only most unedifying but also dangerously off topic.

[Anguirel]

Alright. I admit defeat! Now let's get on with the serious work of ejecting Turgon instead of poor maligned Morgy.

[Lalaith]

Of course...

...but there is the small problem of you having already voted to evict Eonwe....

[Anguirel]

This is awful! At this rate, the Silmarillion will have a completely happy ending! Prevent this literary banditry!

Must I remind everyone that with no Morgoth, we will have no amusing Curse upon the Children of Hurin?

And Saucie, leadership contests among evil aren't that interesting because all the candidates have similar methods, aims and characters. Dominate and/or destroy the world-that's it.

Now power vacuums on the good side are more interesting, because we know details about the psyche of different candidates and there is real variation. If a leader has to go

--EONWE

then let it be

++TURGON. Then the armies of Gondolin will come to the aid of Men. Maybe.

As you can see, I repented...

EDIT: I added the vote in an edit, so you could easily not have seen it...

[The Saucepan Man]

Now let's get on with the serious work of ejecting Turgon instead of poor maligned Morgy.The real question here is whether we are bound by the fate decreed by the AngMod, or whether we, as viewers and voters, have free will ... :p ;)

[Anguirel]

Free will? Tchah! What a ludicrous notion!

Actually, I think the phantom has his way far more often than I do. He's scarcely backed a candidate that hasn't been evicted...he operates after nightfall and sways the masses...

[Lalaith]

No I didn't see it. :)
Hmmm....everybody was being so convincing about Morgoth - but Ang you're right about the curse, I don't want to go without my Narn three-hankie moment.

I'm now wondering if the Turgon eviction shouldn't wait until *after* he turns his back on Hurin. That would be a fitting punishment and then he could mope about the halls of Mandos thinking for ever more about what a wretched ingrate he was.
What do you think?

[Lord Melkor]

Since the Dark Lord Himself is now under attack I have no alternative but to change my vote and call for the removal of Turgon. I mean, sure, a new Dark Lord may arise, but who has the style, the panache, the 'je-ne-sais-quoi?' of Melkor, first and foremost of all the Valar? And who, pray tell, has the personality and intelligence to replace him?

Varda: If I recall correctly she is jockeying for Manwe's position. Boring personality.

Yavanna: Too busy tending her precious trees, besides, being the Dark Lady would entail ruining all life. Obviously unsuitable.

Aule: Hmmm, interesting and the best choice (though still a far cry from Melkor). Still, he doesn't have Melkor's flair, though it would be funny if the Dwarves would follow their Maker and start fighting for the bad guys. I reckon Sauron would have no problems adapting to Aule's lordship and good old Curumo can come into his own as well. Still, Aule lacks the single thing that all Dark Lords should have: Style and class. I also reckon he is not nearly as smart as Melkor.

Tulkas: Too stupid.

Ulmo: Too non-descript.

Mandos: Mandos actively promoting his Doom? How amusing, but once again I say this candidate is too non-descript.

Nienna: Crybaby, therefore unsuitable for the position.

Orome: Too non-descript.

Face it people, the Valar are a bunch of weakwilled personalities, with Melkor being the one glorious exception. I'd say stick with him and allow him to stir things up so the game stays interesting. Remove him and before we know it we'll be reading about happy elves dancing around a tree. Boooooring! Melkor's keeps the game alive.

Furthermore, removing Melkor will only temporarily alleviate the attacks upon the Edain. Once a new Dark Lord has arisen the attacks will pick up again with new vigor, rendering Melkor's removal pointless and ensuring the failure of todays' task. No, in order to protect the humans we must mobilize all forces in Beleriand, making it imperative that all isolationists are removed. Therefore, my vote is changed to:

-- Thingol, ++ Turgon

[Anguirel]

Votes

Sauron-1
Morgoth-3
Turgon-2

Lalaith, if we get Turgon now we'll have Queen Idril...

[The Saucepan Man]

So let me get this straight. The proposition (promulgated by our supposedly unbiased :rolleyes: moderator) is that we prevent the ravaging of the lands of Men by evicting one of those in a position to defend them ... :confused:

Hmm, interesting logic. :rolleyes:

And who, pray tell, has the personality and intelligence to replace him?Mandos seems to be a great candidate to me. How can we tell if he's "too non-descript"? He's not been given an opportunity to shine thanks to the ease with which the Noldor were allowed to leave Aman. I think that he would make a superb Dark Lord. His gratuitous curse as the Noldor left showed his potential. And, as a Dark Lord, his curses would spice things up no end. Curses are a speciality of Mandos, whereas they are more of a side-line with Morgoth. So you see, Lal, we need not miss out on the curse of Hurin and his kin at all if Mandos replaces Morgoth.

[Lalaith]

The real question here is whether we are bound by the fate decreed by the AngMod, or whether we, as viewers and voters, have free will

Alas, Saucie, tis true. With apologies to Webster, we are merely AngMod's tennis-balls, struck and bandied which way pleases him.

On the other hand, the temptation to boot out Turgon is strong, and it was my idea originally so I don't feel too much of a tennis-ball by voting
++TURGON May he remember the Fen of Serech until it burns into his self-serving heart.

[Gothmog]

Oh, I feel this is going the usual way, which means not my way... Don't you see how easy that mod is manipulating you? You even think it's your own idea! There's a man worthy of replacing Sauron after a new Dark Lord has claimed the throne (if that'll be the case).

Lalaith: we are merely AngMod's tennis-balls, struck and bandied which way pleases him.

So true! So why don't you break free from the chains he's created for you?

By his sweet (but poisonous, believe me) words and pulling of strings, he'll put an end to all of ME with Melkor ruling as supreme king with Curufin at his right hand!

No, people, wake up and realize what your doing! Voting for Turgon, one of the great elven kings, one of those with armies great enough to challenge the host of Angband. Too long did he hide in his city, I'm not going to deny that, but when he finally came, he did it in the right time. Nirnaeth Arnoediad, tears unnumbered, was a catastrophy but what if Turgon hadn't showed up? What had been left of elven, man or dwarfen kind then?

Gondolin was one of the few safe harbours in an ocean of darkness and fear, a city that couldn't fall without betrayal from within. Is it the creator of that city you want to chuck out to stop the ravaging? I wonder what your thinking.

You've got the chance to stop the power behind the evil, but you won't take it? I promise you AngMod will make sure this doesn't turn in to fairytale were all are happy whatever the votes will be. And who doesn't want to see the dark side of the Valar? 'Cause the dark side is strong...

In what way is Idril better at stopping the ravaging than her father? And to stop it is the task we've been given.

No hard feeling, Ang ;)

[Anguirel]

Oh, I feel this is going the usual way, which means not my way... Don't you see how easy that mod is manipulating you? You even think it's your own idea! There's a man worthy of replacing Sauron after a new Dark Lord has claimed the throne (if that'll be the case).

Lalaith:

So true! So why don't you break free from the chains he's created for you?

By his sweet (but poisonous, believe me) words and pulling of strings, he'll put an end to all of ME with Melkor ruling as supreme king with Curufin at his right hand!

My plan revealed! But you forgot a few things. Such as Maeglin happily married to Idril and King of Gondolin; Celegorm married to Luthien...Maglor, Daeron and Salgant forming a band...

No, people, wake up and realize what your doing! Voting for Turgon, one of the great elven kings, one of those with armies great enough to challenge the host of Angband. Too long did he hide in his city, I'm not going to deny that, but when he finally came, he did it in the right time. Nirnaeth Arnoediad, tears unnumbered, was a catastrophy but what if Turgon hadn't showed up? What had been left of elven, man or dwarfen kind then?

Gondolin and her armies can exist without Turgon. We don't hear of Turgon doing anything in the Nirnaeth except turning up and running away leaving the humans to die. Maeglin, on the other hand, "proved fell and fearless in battle"-obviously a superior general, equipped, though I say it myself, with the most powerful sword in Middle-earth...


In what way is Idril better at stopping the ravaging than her father? And to stop it is the task we've been given.

No hard feeling, Ang ;)

Ooo! Get him, Lalaith!

And Gothmog, I am far from offended. That was one of the most flattering posts I've ever read, in fact...

VOTES

Sauron-1
Morgoth-3
Turgon-3

[Gothmog]

Yeee, and I tried my best to offend you Ang :) And I see I made it into an other sig. Oh joy!

Ooo! Get him, Lalaith!

Don't get me wrong here! I've already once (wrongfullly) been accused of neglecting and critize the women. I didn't mean anything negative about Idril, I'm sure she'd be fine, but so is Turgon. Please don't come after me Lalaith, I beg you. Pleeeaaase! :(

[Lalaith]

Ooo! Get him, Lalaith

Excuse me? My name is Lalaith, not Lassie. Being treated like a tennis-ball is one thing, but a dog....

Don't worry Gothmog honey, you're quite safe with me.

It's just that I have a particular and long-standing grievance with Turgon. He is happy to accept an extraordinary sacrifice from probably the noblest being that ever walked Middle Earth, namely Hurin Thalion, and then turns his back on him in his hour of need. I have been waiting for a long time to exact some kind of vengeance. I'm doing this for Hurin. You know it makes sense.

[The Saucepan Man]

He is happy to accept an extraordinary sacrifice from probably the noblest being that ever walked Middle Earth, namely Hurin Thalion, and then turns his back on him in his hour of need. I have been waiting for a long time to exact some kind of vengeance.I don't disagree with you on this Lalaith. I have always considered Turgon's behaviour in this regard to be most discreditable.

But surely the time to punish him is when he has actually done the deed which you are seeking to punish him for. I will gladly join your crusade then.

I will also gladly join any crusade which runs contrary to Ang's stated (and, to the extent discernable, unstated) agenda. Like a latter-day Turin, I will fight to Master the Doom which Ang-Morgoth seeks to impose on us (notwithstanding that I am no doubt fated to be thwarted at every turn :( ;) ).

[Gothmog]

Lalaith, I see what you mean too, but as SpM said; now is not the time. Hurin Thalion is indeed one of the most noble and one I've always favoured. But we must look at todays task, and we don't benefit from voting for Turgon now. He'll get his punishment in the end. If we don't look to it, I'm sure the newly renamed Ang-Morgoth will.

And to you SpM: Hail thee who walks the narrow road with me! Hail thee fellow crusader! One of my goals with this game is to eliminate Ang's little favourit pet-elf Curufin, but the road there is both long and hard, filled with the dangers of a revengeful moderator...

[The 1,000 Reader]

My vote stands alone. :(

Listen, wise people, if you can't decide who to send off, why not send off someone who won't be important either way? Sauron barely did anything under Morgoth's rule, he sent his army one by one to their death and then he was easily defeated by a dog. Huan was not a Maia, Huan may have been great, but he was far from a Maia.

It's a win-win situation. If Sauron goes, one less villain. If Sauron goes, Morgoth will fill Sauron's position with one of his Balrogs. Durin's Bane, anyone?

Send off Sauron, spirits of the Barrow-Downs.

[Anguirel]

Saucie, you can ruin all my hopes and dreams, but don't touch the rock band. Sorrowful Harpers will go straight to the top of the charts...

Now is the time, you see, after all, to be rid of Turgon. With the armies of Gondolin released early, Idril, Glorfindel, Ecthelion and possibly Maeglin will lead them into the Bragollach. Such a force may be able to turn the tide of battle and maintain the Siege of Angband, or at least bring about a draw and save the lands of Men. Besides, with so many Balrog-slayers deployed, Gothmog himself may be struck down, avenging Feanor...

Let the vacillitating, authoritarian selfish lump of tapioca that is Turgon return to his beloved Ulmo, and perhaps the Elves under his undeserving rule will show their mettle. Gondolin will also serve as a refuge for human women and children. If an Elven army could get back there after the Nirnaeth undetected, why should the watchful Elves not be able to guide refugees out of danger?

Should the Outlaws of Dorthonion be forced to fight their lonely resistance, the aid of Gondolin will be incomparable help. And the only thing in the way is Turgon. Turgon the Cautious. Turgon the Stubborn. Turgon the Obtuse.

Turgon the Traitor.

[Alcarillo]

++Turgon

Hopefully Maeglin or Idril (whichever is heir) will have friendlier policies towards foreigners and actually help win a battle or two, instead of waiting for hundreds of years until the last minute and losing the battle anyways.

And, Lalaith, what you quoted me as saying earlier was actually spoken by Arcticstorm. I do believe that Idril will have an affair with Tuor.

[Celuien]

Now is the time, you see, after all, to be rid of Turgon. With the armies of Gondolin released early, Idril, Glorfindel, Ecthelion and possibly Maeglin will lead them into the Bragollach. Such a force may be able to turn the tide of battle and maintain the Siege of Angband, or at least bring about a draw and save the lands of Men. Besides, with so many Balrog-slayers deployed, Gothmog himself may be struck down, avenging Feanor...

Let the vacillitating, authoritarian selfish lump of tapioca that is Turgon return to his beloved Ulmo, and perhaps the Elves under his undeserving rule will show their mettle. Gondolin will also serve as a refuge for human women and children. If an Elven army could get back there after the Nirnaeth undetected, why should the watchful Elves not be able to guide refugees out of danger?

Should the Outlaws of Dorthonion be forced to fight their lonely resistance, the aid of Gondolin will be incomparable help. And the only thing in the way is Turgon. Turgon the Cautious. Turgon the Stubborn. Turgon the Obtuse.

Turgon the Traitor.

Fascinating argument. I want to see how this works. :)

++TURGON

But, fair warning, I'm going for Morgoth or Mandos as soon as I can.

[The Saucepan Man]

I want to see how this works.Er - probably exactly the way that Anguirel stated it ... :rolleyes:

Pardon me for trying to inject a spark of controversy into this thread but doesn't this all become rather, um, predictable if we vote exactly the way that the AngMod wants us to every day ...

But, fair warning, I'm going for Morgoth or Mandos as soon as I can.You may not get another crack at Morgoth - at least for a while.

[Celuien]

Er - probably exactly the way that Anguirel stated it ... :rolleyes:

Pardon me for trying to inject a spark of controversy into this thread but doesn't this all become rather, um, predictable if we vote exactly the way that the AngMod wants us to every day ...

You may not get another crack at Morgoth - at least for a while.

I'm thinking downstream, with the Idril as ruler of Gondolin and Maeglin vs Tuor.

I'm willing to wait on Morgoth. Really, I'd like to get rid of the Doom of Mandos first and see if we can't get the Eldar and Edain to unite and defeat him on their own since it appears that uncanonical events are permitted.

[Anguirel]

Votes

Sauron-1
Morgoth-3
Turgon-5

Turgon, thou hast fallen! Voting closed. Results up soon.

[Gothmog]

You know, I haven't been on winning side one single time so far. Maybe I'll vote with Ang next time? On second thought NO, I'll make this the task of my life, DOWN WITH THE MOD! :D

[Anguirel]

RESULTS OF DAY THREE (M-e)

One afternoon, Turgon happened to be strolling on the ramparts of Gondolin with Glorfindel and Ecthelion.

They described his fall in awed tones. "He just...sort of slipped...it was dreadful..."

Both happened to be anti-isolationism.

Later on, two riders were admitted-the lost Lady Aredhel, and an unknown, tall, handsome Sinda, whose face was her very image...and yet not...

They were followed by another mounted Sinda-Eol, the Dark Elf. He demanded the return of his wife and son. The new Queen Idril claimed them as her King, and him also. He insisted on returning with them. A compromise was reached by Idril's wisdom. Eol returned to Nan Elmoth, Aredhel remained at Gondolin; and Maeglin went between them, spending half a year at each; and while at Gondolin, proved a shrewd adviser...

~~~

RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE

Now Morgoth's army presented itself, the largest that had yet been gathered. Sauron commanded the left wing, Gothmog the right; Eonwe and Curunir held the centre. Its vast power's greatest element was the fire of Glaurung; and as no Dwarves had come to the battle, it was nigh on impossible to resist.

In that fell hour were slain Aegnor and Amras, last of the expendable princes of the Noldor, to the Dragon's might; and it seemed that the host of the Noldor must break. Finrod was caught in a circle of foes, though rescued by Barahir's folk at great cost.

But a few warriors of Gondolin-three, in fact-had crept unnoticed to join the battle in the train of Fingon. Idril, Ecthelion, and Maeglin they were. And they caused some bitterness in Morgoth's triumph.

For Idril struck down Curunir the Subtle, and his spirit was dispersed. And Ecthelion in the midst of combat sought out Gothmog, with his Troll-guard occupied with the sons of Feanor, avenging their brother, and Ecthelion pierced the foul captain's heart, though he himself was immolated in its ruin. As for Maeglin, he drew his sword of star-metal Anguirel and set upon Glaurung.

Long was their struggle, inconclusive its end. Maeglin was sore wounded by fire, and was carried out of the fray by Idril; but the dragon Glaurung, afraid and hurt, retreated from the battle.

But still the numbers of Morgoth prevailed; and the Elves retreated, their lands, and those of Dorthonion, in ruins. Fingolfin defied Morgoth, and fought with him to the last; but he was conquered, and with no Eagles about his body was despoiled. Finarfin was shot down as he fled...

Dor-Lomin and Brethil had been saved, but of Dorthonion only outlaws remained, the houseless women and children being spirited into Gondolin or sent to Dor-Lomin or Brethil.

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Elbereth
Ulmo
Mandos, Doom of

NOLDOR

Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Celebrimbor
Caranthir
Curufin
Fingon
Idril
Aredhel
Maeglin
Finrod
Orodreth

TELERI/SINDAR

Olwe
Thingol
Celeborn
Galadriel
Mablung
Beleg
Daeron
Eol

MAIA/ELF

Luthien

MAIA

Melian
Uinen
Huan
Tilion (with Moon)
Arien (with Sun)

DWARVES

Azaghal of Belegost
Telchar of Nogrod
Mim the Petty-dwarf
Khim
Ibun

MEN

Barahir
Beren
Hador
Galdor
Halmir
Haldir

FORCES OF EVIL

Morgoth
Sauron
Eonwe
Draugluin
Glaurung

It's Day Four in Middle-earth. The fourth task is: MESALLIANCE. Without ejecting Beren or Luthien, make their marriage as difficult as possible to achieve.

EDIT: Decided not to kill Eonwe. Seemed like overdoing it...

[Lalaith]

Lovely write-up. :)

But oh, you wicked AngMod. The best way I can see to achieve the challenge is to evict Melian, but what ghastly can of worms will that open up?

[Lalaith]

Oh and of course my humble and abject apologies to Alcarillo for such careless confusion.

[Celuien]

It's Day Four in Middle-earth. The fourth task is: MESALLIANCE. Without ejecting Beren or Luthien, make their marriage as difficult as possible to achieve.



Cruel, cruel Ang-mod. What did Beren and Luthien ever do to you? :p

It might make things more difficult if Morgoth goes. I'm assuming that Beren still has to get the Silmarils or accomplish some sort of task to marry her. If Morgoth takes them to the Void those Silmarils would be pretty hard to find. Or, if the sons of Feanor reclaim them, he might not have a task at all and could just be sent home by ole Thingy.

Beren: Please, can I marry your daughter?
Thingy: Prove your worth.
Beren: Name the task. I shall be victorious.
Thingy: Can't think of a thing for you to do. Sorry, go away.
:smokin:

[Anguirel]

I reassure you (sort of) that whatever you do, you will probably not succeed in stopping the marriage of Beren and Luthien. I do realise that my Celegorm/Luthien wish is pretty unfeasible, and Beren and Luthien (unless you're especially ingenious!) will end up together.

You can't have the Silmarillion without the Silmarils, so if Morgoth were to be evicted, they would not follow him. I have a fate planned for them actually in such a case, but let's keep it a surprise...

[Lord Melkor]

Hmmm, a tough challenge this time. In order to thwart Luthien's and Beren's marriage we must make sure that Thingol will be as obstinate and narrowminded as possible so we must remove the sole voice of reason from his court, so that his bootlickers and lackeys can reinforce his own bigoted beliefs about Beren. Therefore I agree with Lalaith 's assessment: Melian must go! I never understood what a pretty Maia like her saw in that bloated oaf Thingol anyway. :p

++ Melian

[Tuor of Gondolin]

If the goal is to make it difficult, but not impossible, to thwart Luthien's and Beren's marriage, then it would seem that evicting Huan would serve the purpose.
Melian would still be around to moderate Thingol's arrogance (rumor has it Beren once said "You can't do business with that hothead"). Without Huan it would
be humongously difficult to get even one Silmaril. So:

+ + Huan

(hope I did that right).

[Anguirel]

You're half way there, Tuor! Bold it as well next time...++HUAN, for instance. (Example, not vote.)

I have the following suggestions:

Melian and Huan, for reasons stated above, would both be good options

If Barahir were to be ejected, Beren would endure more danger early on, having to lead the Outlaws

Finrod Felagund (I know, I know, it hurts a lot) gave Beren aid and saved Beren's life

Maedhros (even worse) possibly kept his younger brothers Celegorm and Curufin under a measure of control

Telchar forged Angrist-but has probably given it to Curufin by now, so isn't much of a candidate

Tilion and Arien may be the only means of rescuing the lovers aerially...

Out of such a list, I shall back Tuor and vote for the irritating talking animal, which betrays its true master-

++HUAN

[Eonwe]

I thought of huan. It certainly seems like a better choice than Melian (to me). Although Melian is a bit expendable (as much as i hate to say it), i just can't seem to let her go.

But lets look at what will happen if we get rid of huan:

Celegorm will have a much better chance of killing Luthian, or Beren, or both. We what to make the marriage hard, not kill it off.

Sauron. Didn't Luthian faint? I might have made taht up, but i don't think so. So that would also be bad.

So i don't think huan would be a good idea.

What if we evict Arien (with Sun). This would make it much easier for teh forces of Morgoth to range far and wide. I suppose this would make it hard of Beren and Luthian, traveling through the wild as they do...just a thought.

[Lalaith]

Lord Melkor, I'm with you on the need to save Melian from further oafishness. However, I'm just a mite worried about the consequences of the loss of her girdle. Perhaps she could give her daughter some girdling lessons before she goes?
Anyway, now that Turgon's gone, I'm in a happy-go-lucky sort of mood and am open to persuasion from all quarters. Not darling Finrod though. Anything but that.

[Anguirel]

Lord Melkor, I'm with you on the need to save Melian from further oafishness. However, I'm just a mite worried about the consequences of the loss of her girdle. Perhaps she could give her daughter some girdling lessons before she goes?


Actually, Luthien never did very well when being homeschooled by her mother. She was just a bimbo running after boys. It's well-known that her bookish cousin Galadriel surpassed her in girdling, divination, cookery and world domination classes...

I have a way that will allow Beren and Luthien to prevail (just) if Huan goes, but I'll keep it to myself to give you an incentive to vote him off...

Votes

Melian-1
Huan-2

[Gothmog]

Anguirel:Out of such a list, I shall back Tuor and vote for the irritating talking animal, which betrays its true master
Wasn't Orome his original master? In that case I believe Huan follows the unspoken will of his true master by saving the innocent.

Though I must admit Huan's not a bad solution. Better than Melian anyway. The elves of Beleriand needs a wise maia with some powers to resist evil for some time. Melians girdle makes Doriath one of the safe houses right now, even if only invited guests are allowed (and some very special non-invited guests :))

Ang again:Telchar forged Angrist-but has probably given it to Curufin by now, so isn't much of a candidate
True, but if we vote for Curufin, Beren might never find the knife. This would lead to some danger as Beren would have to bring a sledge hammer or hacksaw to pinch the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. But I know this would be fruitless, so I'm not even going to try.

No, I'm afraid I'll have to go bandwaggoning :(

++Huan

But he sure is a nice, cuddly pet with a great, noble heart...

[Anguirel]

Huan was a gift to Celegorm from Orome. A gift. If the haughty Vala still claims he is his master, then it is a proof of the niggardliness of the Valar!

[Lalaith]

Hmm...I don't really want to vote for Melian and am intrigued by prospects of a non-Huanish Silmaril-plucking; but on the other hand I don't think it's very good for young Anguirel to get his own way *all* the time. If Saucie were here I'm sure he'd have a plan.

[Anguirel]

In that case, Lalaith, 'fraid it's time for this-

--HUAN, ++MELIAN

Ostensibly to remove the restraining influence on Thingol, with a menacing undercurrent of "Vote for the doggy or the purty lady gets it!"

Votes

Melian-2
Huan-2

[Alcarillo]

But without Melian, there will be no girdle!

++Huan

The journey to Angband will be much harder, but as long as Luthien and Beren use their heads and stay out of trouble, they should make it there and back all in one piece (not counting Beren's hand).

[Celuien]

I really don't want to vote for Huan and I want to vote for Melian even less. So let's throw someone new into the mix...

++BARAHIR

...to make Beren the new outlaw leader. He won't have much time to wander around Doriath or to go on outlandish quests if we keep him busy with the outlaws. It should at least delay the marriage.

[Eonwe]

++HUAN

as much as this galls me, someone said something about the consequences of voteing him off, and they were good. so...

melian is a bad choice. we dont' even know (and i don't dare guess) waht thingol will cook up if left to his own devises. plus no girdle, thats' bad too.

[Anguirel]

Hmmm. I'm extending the voting time for this to 7:00 pm GMT, since I've been ambushed by Italian learning and haven't got time to do awrite-up now, and because I'd like to see more votes...

Votes so far

Melian-2
Huan-4
Barahir-1

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Huan.

Sorry, but your the best choice. Eru can always intervene.

Besides, I'm still ticked that Morgoth kept me up all night yelling "Damn it Sauron, damn it! You lost to a dog!" My trip to Middle-Earth was a lot less pleasant because of that. :mad:

[Lalaith]

Sigh. I'm starting to feel like I'm trapped in a Jasper Fforde novel.

Resistance to the AngMod is clearly useless, particularly without trusty Saucie to back me up.

++HUAN.

[Anguirel]

Actually, there may be a chance to wrest power from me!

After my Friday morning update (so, the challenge after the one after this one) I'll be off for a few days-I'll ascertain how many precisely before I leave. I want the show to continue apace, so I need a replacement mod to take over write ups for a bit if poss.

Are you up for this, Lalaith? If my usual updating and closing times don't suit, feel free to change them.

If you don't feel able to do it, then I offer the position to Gothmog. Which I know means that, most likely, all my favourites will be summarily killed off by my return. Still, he's made some excellent contributions and perhaps deserves a wee comeback.

Otherwise...Saucie? Or, if absolutely necessary, a hiatus.

Incidentally, votes:

Melian-2
Huan-6
Barahir-1

[Lalaith]

I'm flattered by your offer, sir, but alas must refuse: I'm off myself from Saturday to Tuesday.

[Anguirel]

I'm leaving Friday to Wednesday.

Which means I would miss a vast chunk of the Silmarillion. Oh dear. I may call a pause after all till Wednesday, if no one minds...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

++The Saucepan Man!!

[Anguirel]

Ha ha ha...

Right. Decision made. The AngMod shall cling to power and after voting closes on Friday morning I shall do the write-up but announce the pause until Wednesday. Then on Wednesday I'll post the new challenge.

Is that alright with everyone?

[Gothmog]

If you don't feel able to do it, then I offer the position to Gothmog. Which I know means that, most likely, all my favourites will be summarily killed off by my return. Still, he's made some excellent contributions and perhaps deserves a wee comeback.

Ahhh *mouth watering*... Curufin and the other Cs would go in the first write up. They would all die a horrible death! But alas... I don't think I have enough time, there's an upcoming major test taking away most creativity right now. Though I'm truly flattered and might even stop trying to resist ever move you make...or maybe not! ;)

I guess we can manage a few days without new exciting tasks to deal with.

As I said I'm really honoured by your proposal (NOT that kind of marriage-proposal thingy)...

[Eonwe]

Curufin and the other Cs would go in the first write up. They would all die a horrible death

you really should take over, you know. they deserve no less... ;)

[Anguirel]

Voting closing slightly early due to an evil English essay...

Melian-2
Huan-6
Barahir-1
Saucepanmanowen-1

Huan is no longer best friend to Eldar or Edain. Say goodbye to Poochie...he's off to join Manwe, Osse, Gothmog and Curunir in the Void...

Write-up following.

[Anguirel]

RESULTS OF DAY FOUR (M-e)

Celegorm and Curifin were hanging about in Nargothrond, relaxing after a hectic wolf-hunt. They were whiling away the morning with a friendly debate.

"Dogs," Celegorm said, "are so much better than cats. They're loyal, and friendly! They never let you down!"

Huan barked happily.

"That's as may be," said Curufin, "but you have to admit they're quite thick."

Huan suddenly collapsed through a cunningly contructed trap into a vat of extremely hot boiling oil. His yelps grew louder, then, at length, ceased.

"He lasted some time," noted Tevildo the Prince of Cats, sauntering in. He had the ability to talk whenever some serious gloating needed to be done. Curufin had bribed him from the dark side by use of a potion, called in the Elvish tongue Whiskas...

RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE

Tevildo had a weakness. He loved to be stroked from his neck to the base of his tail by beautiful, dark haired Elven maids. This meant that Luthien quickly won his assistance.

With the help of the ruthlessly resourceful Prince of Cats, Beren and Luthien's quest was a great success. Unfortunately Finrod still died, Daeron still vanished, Celegorm and Curufin still got thrust from Nargothrond, and mostly things fell out as you might expect. However, Tevildo-as cats will tend to-completely stole the limelight.

He persuaded Draugluin and all the wolves of Sauron to try eating Dragon, with predictable results. He sat out the fight between Celegorm, Curufin, Beren, and luthien, then scratched Celegorm's horse when it was clear who was going to win.

At the taking of the Silmaril, Tevildo persuaded Arien-a cat-lover-to help rescue the fleeing love-birds. But the cat was by now a double-agent for Curufin, his services re-ensured by Whiskas, and after beren and Luthien's marriage, he attempted to steal back the Silmaril. Unfortunately his nine lives had run out and Beleg-a dog-person-caught and drowned him.

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Elbereth
Ulmo
Mandos, Doom of

NOLDOR

Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Celebrimbor
Caranthir
Curufin
Fingon
Idril
Aredhel
Maeglin
Orodreth

TELERI/SINDAR

Olwe
Thingol
Celeborn
Galadriel
Mablung
Beleg
Eol

MAIA/ELF

Luthien

MAIA

Melian
Uinen
Tilion (with Moon)
Arien (with Sun)

DWARVES

Azaghal of Belegost
Telchar of Nogrod
Mim the Petty-dwarf
Khim
Ibun

MEN

Beren
Dior
Hurin
Huor
Morwen
Haldir
Handir
Bor
Borlach & co.
Ulfang
Uldor & co.

FORCES OF EVIL

Morgoth
Sauron
Eonwe
Glaurung
Ancalagon (baby...)

Task the fifth: maximise destruction, death and disaster for both sides to the greatest extent possible in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

[Gothmog]

Ancalogon (baby...)
Oh how sweet! And what a pet! You could use him to grill your marshmallows and as an effective fly catcher!

And now to the subject... You have an ability to write some really devilish tasks Ang. Maximum destruction for both sides, and I guess Curufin won't die in the turmoil this time either? ;)

What we must do is create two equal armies to fight til the end (or almost). If one army gets superior to the other, there will not be " destruction, death and disaster for both sides to the greatest extent possible". Nirn was won by the dark side, but it was a close call. The fury of Noldor and the men who stayed true combined with the toughness of the dwarfes made Morgoth tremble upon his throne.

It is said:Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.

So what if we eliminate those forces? Does that mean the elves (it was mainly elves) would win? If so, what will the rest of this game be about? No, an other solution is to be found.

If Uldor the accursed and his lot wasn't around, Maedhros would join the battle earlier which should make it a lot bloodier. Still, the victory of the good side is far from secure. Ulfgang, Ulfast and Ulwarth is still there to lead the forces of turncoates and traitors.

So men still turn around and start chopping at elves AFTER a bloody battle at the doorstep of Angband were the sons of Feanor join in. That might do the trick.

++Uldor

If we took out for example Azaghal of Belegost, Glaurung and his fellow dragons will be free to exterminate the noldor and that won't make much of a game either. It is said literaly that the dragons would have done this if not for the dwarfes.

If we take out any of the elves or good men, the host of Good will have less striking power and loose even worse than they did.

Therefor I choose Uldor, but I'm sure someone can come up with something else. I'm not totally stuck on Uldor, I'm feeling quite flexible on this vote...

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Uldor.

(About the write-up, Beleg? Strange choice,and wouldn't it be hard to drown something as big as a tiger/lion? I don't think he was small. Good writing, though. I'm not insulting you.)

[Celuien]

Actually, Gothmog, that sounds like a very reasonable plan. I can't really think of a better way to cause more death and destruction.

++ULDOR

[Lord Melkor]

Excellent reasoning Gothmog ! In order to maximize the number of fatalities on both sides we must make sure the meatgrinder lasts as long as possible, so no side must get a distinct advantage over the other one.

++ Uldor

[Anguirel]

Clarification-the sons of Uldor and the sons of Bor are both single entities for the purposes of voting. If you eject Uldor, Ulwarth and the rest go too, for instance.

Partly out of perversity, I feel a need to set up an altrenative candidate. Of course Morgoth's army has to be weakened, and Uldor and the other traitorous brothers are an obvious option.

However, it was not the treachery men which meant that the Union of Maedhros was destined to end in defeat. No; a darker power lay behind it.

The time has come to finally be rid of ++MANDOS, THE DOOM OF, which will allow great Noldo leaders like the High King Maedhros, Fingon and Maeglin, Prince of Gondolin, to show their quality...

[Lalaith]

What's the deadline today, O AngMod the Great?

[Anguirel]

Weeell...it depends. Probably tomorrow morning, 7:30am; I was hoping to squeeze in another Day but time is too short now I think. So this challenge will be the last before the pause. The aftermath of the Nirnaeth changes everything, will kill off an unprecedented number of contestants and seems a suitable point for the interval.

So, yup, I've persuaded myself. 7:30 am tomorrow.

Votes so far

Uldor-4
Mandos, the Doom of-1

[Lalaith]

Ok, here's an idea, what about Azaghal of Belegost?
If we evict him, he doesn't wound Glaurung and drive him off the battlefield, so Glaurung gets to kill more of the host of elves, elf-friends and dwarves. And also, if he isn't slain, then the dwarves don't do their dirge-singing, bearing away the body of their slain leader from the battlefield thing - I know that was a pretty cool scene but if they stay and fight for a bit longer then more of the host of Morgoth will be slain.
Plus we haven't evicted any dwarves yet.
++Azaghal

[Eonwe]

i thought of that. another would be hurin or huor, for allowing the armies of gondolin to escape. if we take him out, maybe gondolin will have to make a last stand...

ill go with ++HURIN, as much as it freaking galls me. :mad:

[Lalaith]

*glares at Eonwe*
You leave my daddy alone, you hear?

[Anguirel]

Lalaith, one problem with your idea is that without Azaghal-who owes Maedhros a life-debt-to lead them, will the folk of Belegost even turn up?

And Eonwe, I can't really see your reasoning at all. Hurin was the absolute bulwark of the Elven/Human front-line. Ejecting him would probably be the second-most damaging thing you could do to the Forces of Good, second only to evicting the even greater warrior and general Maedhros...

The only explanation is that, true to your new position as Morgoth's lieutenant, you're working to make his victory still more absolute!

I still say vote to drive off the nasty old Doom...

[Gothmog]

Lalaith: as I said in my earlier post, Silm. says literaly that if it were not for Azaghal and the dwarfes, "Glaurung and his brood" would have destroyed the noldor.
And but for them <the dwarfes> Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor.
I agree with Ang-not a good idea.

I'm also against the idea of voting on Hurin as it would reduce the forces of good, and they're already on the loosing side. If the forces of Gondolin wouldn't leave, there would be a lot less elves left which may contribute to the sake of today's task, but make the future less interesting. Plus Hurin is needed in the battle. One, if not the, mightiest warriors of men ever walked the Middle Earth turf.

And for Doom of Mandos, are we sure that this doom makes every Noldo weaker? I've rather thought of it like something that shows itself in bad luck and "fate".

No, I'm still for Uldor. If it means Ulwarth and his people go to, so be it. Ulfgang is man enough to lead those cursed men. Plus Bor with sons will stay, right?


My 100th post. Feeling newbidity fading... Soon even wight :) everybody is welcome on a party with virtual cake in my PM inbox ;)

[Lalaith]

If the Gondolodrim (?) can turn up without Turgon, I don't see why the Belegost posse wouldn't show without Az. Of course, it all lies in the hands of the AngMod.
*shrugs*

Happy hundredweight, Gothmog... :smokin:

[Gothmog]

The "Gondolodrim" still had leaders worthy of a name in the books, which the dwarfes lacks ;) Who would lead them in battle? Any 3 feet short, bearded, axe-maniac won't do. I doubt anyone but the great Azhagal could manage to hurt Glaurung so bad he decides to retire from battle, and that's what stopped the dragons.

But true is that it all lays in the hands of our much beloved Mod. I'm truly worried about the coming write up. Probably most of those we hold dear will perish, but the scum will be heroes ;)

And thank you!

And lo people! Now I'm a wight too! Double cakes for everybody!

[Celuien]

Clarification-the sons of Uldor and the sons of Bor are both single entities for the purposes of voting. If you eject Uldor, Ulwarth and the rest go too, for instance.

Partly out of perversity, I feel a need to set up an altrenative candidate. Of course Morgoth's army has to be weakened, and Uldor and the other traitorous brothers are an obvious option.

However, it was not the treachery men which meant that the Union of Maedhros was destined to end in defeat. No; a darker power lay behind it.

The time has come to finally be rid of ++MANDOS, THE DOOM OF, which will allow great Noldo leaders like the High King Maedhros, Fingon and Maeglin, Prince of Gondolin, to show their quality...

My chance to get rid of the Doom of Mandos has come at last if the pattern of Ang-mod victories continues!

--ULDOR
++MANDOS, DOOM OF

An entirely unfair sanction against the great Noldor tribe. They don't deserve this persecution.

[Anguirel]

Uldor-3
Mandos, Doom of-2
Azaghal-1
Hurin-1

Gothmog-my interpretation of the Doom is not that it physically saps Noldorin strength, but that it ultimately thwarts Noldorin enterprises. With the Doom present, the Union of Maedhros, for instance, cannot succeed in its aims of, er, unity and defiance of Morgoth. There are also side products like Maeglin's love for Idril, and possiblly vice-versa. Whether that will go with the Doom, I leave you to speculate...as I also leave you to wonder what the state of Idril's feelings have been tending Maeglin's Dragon-wounds. That sub-plot has been put aside, but I'll reveal its result next write-up. Not a happy one...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I've got to go with
+ + Glaurung

With him the bad guys won a narrow, hard-fought victory. Without him, but with other, more immature, dragons, the dwarves might have stayed on the field and helped with a rather bloody draw. Bad guys pushed back to the gates of Angband
with the help of the dwarves and Gondolin but both sides severely weakened.

[arcticstorm]

Here is my take on this challenge
first of all, Maedhros is still held captive my Morgoth, he will probably be the one killed to draw the armies into battle prematurely. Second, we do not have an alliance with the dwarves, so they will probably not come. THird, THingol has nothing against the Noldor, so he will be there. So in light of all this, I say to maximize casualties on both sides, we need to get rid of the accused traitor who will turn on the elves making it a complete slaughter and minimiae the casualties of the forces of Melkor.
++Uldor

[Anguirel]

arctic:

Maedhros was rescued in a write-up ages ago by Fingon, Celegorm and Huan

Azaghal owes Maedhros a life-debt; Telchar has a trading interest with Curufin but may not risk his life to defend it

Thingol does have something against the Sons of Feanor, who are leading the coalition: Celegorm and Curufin attacked his daughter, and the brothers are angry with him for keeping a Silmaril from them...

Sorry, don't mean to be so crushing!

[Gothmog]

For all Anguirel said, Uldor is a good choice, arcticstorm. Read the earlier posts and I'm sure you'll find no reason to change your vote. Good choice but wrong reasons ;)

Anguirel: That sub-plot has been put aside, but I'll reveal its result next write-up. Not a happy one...
Why am I not surprised? Come on, leave Idril alone. She's a lovely lass and her once-to-be boyfriend is the only one who deserves her.

Celuien:My chance to get rid of the Doom of Mandos has come at last if the pattern of Ang-mod victories continues!
Don't let that man win again! Lets change this pattern of victories. Doom of Mandos will go eventually. For this one time, let me be on the winning side! I'm going so desperate I'll start voting for Anguirels alternatives soon. (ok, I voted for Huan but apart from that.)

[Anguirel]

Anguirel:
Why am I not surprised? Come on, leave Idril alone. She's a lovely lass and her once-to-be boyfriend is the only one who deserves her.

Actually, when I said it won't end happily I was speaking from my perspective, not yours...poor, poor Maeglin...

Lomion's far too good for Idril anyway.

[Eonwe]

well, as i see it, the elvin coalition did fairly well even with the treachury of men. it would not surprise me to hear that melkor suspained infinately more losses than the elves did. i think somewere it says that elves took out orcs like a wind blowing dry leaves, or something like that. if you take out hurin, the battle goes just like planned, only the gondolindrim cannot flee the field of battle. eveyone is forced to make a last despate stand, in which elves will inflict many more casualties than they actually sustain, but will eventually be ground down by sheer numbers. (it was always my impression that morgoth used legions of vastly inferior troops, but evened it out by using more). i think taht maxamizes the carnage, doesn't it: total anihilation?

[arcticstorm]

My bad about Maedhros still being captive, I had not seen that part of the post, but it seems that right now from what I have read from the posts, the hautynes sof the sons of feanor did not reach Thingol yet, only the lord of cats trying to secretly steal the silmarill. if this is the case, Thingol and Olwe will show up. maybe the dwarves will show up, not sure though, as we have no way of knowing whether Maedhros was able to make an alliance with them or not yet, so I will retract one of my prevfious statements, with two maybes. I will stick with my vote for Uldor though.

[Alcarillo]

To even out the sides during the Nirnaeth.

++Uldor

Voting out the Doom will only result in a story with little to no drama. Who wants to read the Silmarillion minus the drama, the angst, the grief?

[The 1,000 Reader]

If the Doom of Mandos goes, we'll just get the Damnation of Eru.