I Found the Entwives!

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Well, not I, but a member by the name of Teleporno (Telerin for Celeborn) of the Tolkien board Minas Tirith claims in the thread "I Found the Entwives!" (http://www.minastirith.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001541) to have found them. He has not revealed exactly where in LOTR he found them, but he has given several hints. But only one other member, Ararana, has managed to find what Teleporno is hinting at, or so she says. There is a common belief among the other members that this discovery is a hoax.

As for myself, I am the member Herendil who has posted in the thread. I am now wondering if the members of The Barrow-Downs can have better success in this search than what the members of Minas Tirith have had so far. You could read the whole MT thread to get the full idea of Teleporno's and Ararana's hints and the progress of the search, but for your convenience, I will list their hints below in chronological order. The member Halion found a few hints by Teleporno on the board The Land of Rohan (his replies to the thread “Did Treebeard ever find the Entwives?” here (http://p088.ezboard.com/brohan73264.showUserPublicProfile?gid=teleporno@ro han73264)), I will list these as well.


Teleporno


I found the Entwives!

At least I think so. In my nineteenth rereading of the The Two Towers, I found 'em, right there. Tolkien answered his own riddle.

Now I understand why he was so cagey in his letters about them. He wanted readers to discover the answer to his riddle.

Can you find the Entwives?

I'll come back within the week with quotes so you can see for yourself whether I'm right.

PS -- Is Christopher Tolkien alive? It seems like I read his obituary, but I can't find any evidience of his death on the Net. I'd like to write him.


Hey, okay, I'm short on time -- a hasty mortal. But they're in the second half of The Two Towers.

I'm considering not revealing it since I can hardly believe that nobody's noticed them in the fifty years of publication of these books! Of ocurse my "evidence" is subjective. Tolkien does not say "here are the Entwives." But he does, I think, make a very deliberate joke.

I wanna at least get honorary membership in the Tolkien Society for this one...

Teleporno
"eves of grass"


I'm in the process of corresponding with The Tolkien Society about my discovery. I'll list the chapter when they reply to me.

I decided it is such a pleasant little mystery that to detail it all would be to spoil it for you, sort of like answering a riddle you should figure out yourself.

It also, to me, now means I must reread the books all over yet again (no pain there!) to see how many other hidden things the Professor put in there.

The TS webpage says they usually respond within several days, but it may take longer.


I checked out all the links posted above and none of them come close to my apparent discovery.


I'm now doubly worried about the Nazgûl finding the remaining Entwives and scorching them.

Congratulations, you've made a compelling argument to NOT post my discovery here.

And true enough to my word, I have already narrowed it down sufficiently that careful readers should be able to find them now that they suspect they're there.

Where?

Goodbye.

Sincerely,
Teleporno


Wow, I come back after a year and my little thread about the Entwives is still kicking.

Tolkien Society people tell me to publish a paper on the idea. As if.

It's a joke I'm sure some of Tolkien's cronies got, especially his cloistered academic friends parodied (and ennobled) by the Ents. Think of British women in the early 20th century...Suffragists...women who wouldn't put up with foolish, boorish men...

Read The Two Towers and closely note clusters of words.

I can't say anymore and keep the joke secret. It's there. I'm certain.




Ararana


Holy crap! ok I dont really think any of you are going to believe me, becuase well, how many of you really believed Teleporno? I didnt, but the thought of finding the Entwives in the back of my head drove me crazy and before I knew it I was reading TTT, over and over again. And YES its right there! Tolkien has a good sense of humor! its so a deliberate joke. Its like tolkien is saying "Duh, there right here, were the blazes did you think they'd be!".

And hats off to Teleporno for not revealing their location. It is so rewarding to find them on your own like this, for any hardcore tolkien fan. Come on guys your so close to finding them! Teleporno gave you enough clues. just piece it together like a puzzle.

And yeah, I dont think the Nazgul had anything to do with the disappearance of the Entwives.

For those of you who DO believe me, just keep looking your so close just use Teleporno's clues.


Yeah, I didnt think any of you would believe me. And now my name on this board probably went to hell. Sorry, I found it, you dont believe me. Thats your problem, not mine.




Teleporno (on The Land of Rohan)


The Entwives are alive and living in The Lord of the Rings but you must look closely to find and decipher the riddle. Once you find them, don't tell anyone!


It's an elaborate inside joke as much as a riddle, just as the Ents can be taken as a broad spoof of haughty English academics (specifically Treebeard is JRRT's rendering of C.S. Lewis) the Entwives are the middle-class British women who don't tolerate the foolish behavior of men -- like the suffragists. I know it's an extremely obscure thing to find and you have to do a lot of homework to understand my explanation of the riddle. Reading such as Humphrey Carpenter's authorized biography (yeah, I know it's very flawed and omits a lot) and the Letters of JRRT. The letters where he answers readers questions about the Entwives are deliberately cagey for exactly this reason -- he wants YOU to find them.

Remember, he's a subtle writer and every word counts.


It's all in The Two Towers. Keep an eye on the clustering of certain types of words.

That's all I'm writing.

Happy 2004 to all Tolkien fans worldwide!

[Farael]

A couple of days ago a friend told me that he thought the entwives were mentioned at the very beginning, when Sam is talking to Ted Sandyman and mentions that his cousin had seen a man, as huge as an elm, walking outside the Shire. If that was true, it could have been easily an ent-wife as I don't think hobbits would be able to tell the difference between ent and entwife.

Regarding the entwifes being mentioned on The Two Towers, I must have missed it.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

I recommend reading closely Book IV, the second book of TT, since that book was specified by Teleporno. Or rather, 'the second half of The Two Towers' - there is a slight risk that Teleporno did not mean Book IV by 'the second half of The Two Towers', but Book IV plus the last chapters of Book III.

And keep an eye on 'the clustering of certain types of words'!

[Meneltarmacil]

I'm wondering if possibly this Book IV reference could refer to the flowers bound around the old statue's head like a crown at the crossroads. I thought there might be more to that than sheer coincidence, and as the Entwives were supposed to represent more ordely gardens than wild woods, perhaps they might have been responsible for "crowning" the king again. Just a thought.

And this would make sense somewhat in light of the idea that they were somehow in danger of being scorched by Sauron, seeing as Ithilien is rather close to Mordor.

[Lindolirian]

I'm not too sure what this is all about finding answers and keeping them secrets, we usually like to share our knowledge and thus help each other grow in our understanding of Tolkien. Cyptic games are usually in The Quiz Room (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13). Is that what this is, or am I misunderstanding you?

In response to what it is that may have been found in the second half of the Two Towers, without having done any research the instance describing Ithilien in its dishevelled dryad loveliness jumps to mind.

[Lalwendë]

Well, here's the two sections I think might be the likely candidates:

Many great trees grew there, planted long ago, falling into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants; and groves and thickets there were of tamarisk and pungent terebinth, of olive and of bay; and there were junipers and myrtles; and thymes that grew in bushes, or with their woody creeping stems mantled in deep tapestries the hidden stones; sages of many kinds putting forth blue flowers, or red, or pale green; and marjorams and new-sprouting parsleys, and many herbs of forms and scents beyond the garden-lore of Sam. The grots and rocky walls were already starred with saxifrages and stonecrops. Primeroles and anemones were awake in the filbert-brakes; and asphodel and many lily-flowers nodded their half-opened heads in the grass: deep green grass beside the pools, where falling streams halted in cool hollows on their journey down to Anduin.

Presently, not far ahead, looming up like a black wall, they saw a belt of trees. As they drew nearer they became aware that these were of vast size, very ancient it seemed, and still towering high, though their tops were gaunt and broken, as if tempest and lightning-blast had swept across them, but had failed to kill them or to shake their fathomless roots.

Though I must admit I can't yet see the joke or riddle in there! ;)

[goldfinger]

I've been watching this forum for awhile and I've decided that I'll say my two cents. If the Entwives are alive, there are several places they could have went besides the usual theories. I've been studying these places in the Atlas of Middle Earth and the atlas, period. Here are the places that I think they could have went:

1. In Eriador on the west and to the south of the Blue Mts. (both ranges), there are several forest. one being the Eryn Vorin in Minhiriath. It seems to be uninhabited by man nor elf. Another being the forest on the slopes of the southern chain of the Blue Mts. I don't think it's visited very by elf or dwarf. For one, the elves live one hundred fifty to two hundred miles north of this forest. The other being that the dwarves don't go out of there mountains unless they have to. Also there is a forest on the slopes of the northern chain of the Blue Mts, in North Lindon. It's more likely that the entwives would be in the northern end of the wood, because the elves probably live in the southern end. Considering that it's only around sixty miles east of the wood.

2. they could have went two the forest on the northern coast of the sea of Rhun? or the could have went to the Wild Wood. That is where elves and men came from and later abandoned. The only race I see being there are the dwarves. Which they say the clans the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks, and Stonefoots originated from the east (probably the Mountains of the East which were the Red Mts). They could be there protecting the Wild Wood from the Dwarves? Because weren't the Ents and Entwives made also to protect the forest from the dwarves? Tell me if I'm wrong.

3. Beyond Far Harad there are many huge forests. There doesn't seem to be anybody living that far south, so it is possible.

That's my two cents.

[eowyntje]

I don't really get the point of that topic. I tried reading it all, but its a lot.

What I don't get it this:
First Teleporno starts by saying that the answer to the riddle is 'right there' in the second half of TT. Then it should be easy to point out where they are once you know where to look, right?
But then Teleporno writes a huge confusing essay about all references to entwives in anything Tolkien ever wrote. This is all very interesting, but no where does he tell us: this is where the entwives are. After reading his essay I still don't have a clue where the entwives are.
Why write a complicated essay about it when he can just quote that part of the TT that matters? If he's going to go public with his discovery, why not just tell us in one line where the ents are?

[Elu Ancalime]

Funny tha t Teleporno hasnt responded to it.... :rolleyes:
________
Richard lukins (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Richard_Lukins)

[Alkanoonion]

I remember seeing that “Can you find the Entwives?” topic on Minas Tirith back in 2003

After reading that post I went back and reread the book and failed to find any mention apart from one of the hobbits claiming to see a tree like creature.

I myself think that the original poster was just looking to get attention and pump up his post count. My question is why would you make such a statement and fail to give us proof

Quote”

Congratulations, you've made a compelling argument to NOT post my discovery here.

And true enough to my word, I have already narrowed it down sufficiently that careful readers should be able to find them now that they suspect they're there.

/end quote

If he had indeed found them he would have told us all exactly what paragraph he was reading. :rolleyes:

[Child of the 7th Age]

Bear with me...this may be long. Michael Martinez, who is far more knowlegable than I, posted on the Minas Tirith forum and couldn't make head or tail of Teleporno. However, I think I've dredged up enough to convince me he did find something and I don't agree with it (whatever "it" is).

Here is some more information on Teleporno from the Land of Rohan website: here. (http://www.landofrohan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1354) Both Minas Tirith and Rohan contain a reference to Kansas. (Did anyone say Wizard of Oz? :rolleyes: ) For some reason, this particular thread in Rohan is not accessible through the link Ardamir originally provided for us. I found it through google.

The place I'm writing from looks a lot like Lothlorien in the Peter Jackson extended DVD release of the film of FotR. It's a large hill with beautiful trees. It's even got it's own mythical name, Mount Oread. I work for the University of Kansas in Lawrence, Kansas. It's about a half-hour drive from downtown Kansas City, Missouri, hometown of jazz hero Charlie Parker.

I received a bachelor's degree in English and Film Studies at KU in 1992. Some of my coursework included study of Old English (a grad class) and fantasy literature. I also read lots of mythology and ancient heroic writing, from Egil's Saga to Beowulf to The Kalevala to the Eddas.

Of Tolkien, I've read
The Hobbit: at least four times, first time at age 10; just reread it over the weekend in about ten hours;

Lord of the Rings: At least six times, first time around age 13, just started it again today;

The Silmarillion: Three times. Finished it in December;

Unfinished Tales: Once, finished it Friday;

Lost Tales, Vol. I: Once, in the mid-eighties in hardback;
Lost Tales, Vol. II: Partially read;
Lays of Beleriand: Partially read;
Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien: Once, rereading again.

My first inclination was to assume that this person never found anything about the Entwives and was merely posting to irritate the posters at Minas Tirith. But looking at what we know about his credentials from the post above, his knowlege of sources (though not the greatest, he knew something), and also an anlysis of his other posts, I've come to believe that he thought he'd found something. It wasn't purely a joke.

I have no idea what he found re the Entwives but his posts point consistently to an approach he is taking---both in terms of the Entwives and the few other posts that are on these sites. He thinks that Tolkien uses hidden jokes, conscious allusions to other authors, and bases some of his characters on real people. He actually spells out some of these supposed links not re the Entwives but in other posts he's written re other scenes and characters in Tolkien.

Here's a post from Jan 2003 on Minas Tirith that gives a hint of this.

Aiwrendel is correct according to my reading. And the Shakespeare stuff is clearly present throughout Tolkien (he was 'recording' the lost mythology of England, after all):

Ents = Wood coming to Dunsinane (Macbeth); and
Aragorn = Reluctant king in waiting (King Henry IV Part One) are two that are very obvious. Back when I was a college student studying Shakespeare I noticed many references JRRT made to WS, as well as Chaucer, Mallory, Beowulf, and Milton, to name a few.

The reference of being "born of no woman" is to Julius Ceasar. The reverse, "slain by no man" (sic) is clearly his little joke. Prof Tolkien did have to earn the respect of his Oxford cronies, after all!

We can see from this that Teleporno had a thing about Tolkien making "little jokes" and that these jokes are hidden. In this regard he also seems to be searching for allusions that JRRT made to other authors. This all ties in nicely with what he said on the Minas Tirith thread re the Entwives......references to jokes and hidden things. My inclination then is that Teleporno was following a particular train of thought in all his posts, and, using particular techniques he favored, he did think he'd discovered "something" concerning the Entwives.

Tolkien does not say "here are the Entwives." But he does, I think, make a very deliberate joke.

I decided it is such a pleasant little mystery that to detail it all would be to spoil it for you, sort of like answering a riddle you should figure out yourself.

It also, to me, now means I must reread the books all over yet again (no pain there!) to see how many other hidden things the Professor put in there.

I think his posts on Tom Bombadil are also a key. There's nothing new here in terms of content but Teleporno is insistent that JRRT based many characters on actual people. (We'll see this same suggestion later in the Entwife thread.) See here on a non- entwife reference:

I'm rather new around here, but I've been reading Tolkien for twenty-five years. So when I found this thread I thought I'd drop in my favorite theory about Tom, but Ensa Lucis already said it here in May 2001.

Tom is the author himself. He's in the center of the world, yet removed. He's old both among Tolkien's characters, having been dreamt up by JRRT around 1907 (if memory serves). And JRRT knew that when he died, although his Middle-Earth stories would survive, the world would cease to be revealed since he was it's sole creator. So, Tom and Ronald are both "last as they were first".

Plus, all the "Goldberry is waiting" lines make me think about a busy academic whose hobby was writing, but was yet a devoted husband. Goldberry is Mrs. Tolkien.

I've always guessed that JRRT based many of his characters on actual people, although I've never read of who they might've been. Radagast might be Charles Williams. Whoever Saruman was, Tolkien clearly developed contempt for him!

I do not believe for one minute that Tolkien based his characters on real people and put them as hidden jokes into the text, but that is what Teleporno seems to be hinting at, whether we're talking about Entwives or other characters. Take a look at this reference regarding the Entwives. The Ents are Tolkien's academic friends and the Entwives some sort of suffragists who won't put up with the baloney of cloistered academics. This was posted months afterward on both Rohan and M.T. and is the most explicit statement we have from him concerning the identity of the Entwives.

It's a joke I'm sure some of Tolkien's cronies got, especially his cloistered academic friends parodied (and ennobled) by the Ents. Think of British women in the early 20th century...Suffragists...women who wouldn't put up with foolish, boorish men...

Read The Two Towers and closely note clusters of words.

I can't say anymore and keep the joke secret. It's there. I'm certain.

Where does all this lead? Ahem.....on the basis of the scholarly evidence available, I would say this. The poster Teleporno uses a consistent approach in both the Entwife and non-Entwife threads. Therefore, it is not a total spoof: he thought he found something using the same approach he'd taken on his other posts: hidden jokes, allusions to real people and/or other authors. For some reason, probably because he enjoyed seeing people squirm, he preferred not to spell out his findings.

I, for one, think that his idea of allusions to real people is hokum. His earlier reference to Charles Williams as Radagast is double hokum! Moreover, I simply do not accept his bald analogy that Ents are a parody of Tolkien's academic friends. And since I can't accept his characterization of the Ents, I also can't accept the other half of the equation: his views on the Entwives (whatever or wherever they are)! This gets us into another level of contention. There has been much conversation on this website as to whether Tolkien appreciated or engaged in parody. Teleporno strongly suggest that the Ent/Entwife paradigm is some sort of parody. I, for one, do not believe that.

Am I barking up the wrong tree? (Let's just hope I'm not tugging at an Entwife's skirt!) I am also at a total loss as to those "cluster of words".

[Morsul the Dark]

no i dont have a clue to a passage but i do have another theory as opposed to making anopther thread ill add it here

ents and darves hate each other....yet dwarf women and entwives are amazingly rare is it possibly frusterated with their male counterparts dislike for each other the women of these two races went to leave in harmony somwhere?

[Ardamir the Blessed]

eowyntje:

I was the one who wrote (or is actually writing) and posted the essay on Minas Tirith. I have not found what Teleporno claimed to have found, but I have made a lot of research on Entwives, and present my findings in my essay, which is still under work. My user name on Minas Tirith is Herendil, Teleporno and I are not the same person.


Child of the 7th Age:

I agree with you that Teleporno has a tendency of finding hidden jokes in Tolkien, and that he probably did think that he found a joke concerning the Entwives, whether it really is a joke or not.

However, he is right about the fact that the Ents were partly inspired by the Great Birnam wood in Macbeth; Tolkien himself tells us that:

Letter #163, note:Their [the Ents’] part in the story is due, I think, to my bitter disappointment and disgust from schooldays with the shabby use made in Shakespeare of the coming of 'Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill': I longed to devise a setting in which the trees might really march to war. And into this has crept a mere piece of experience, the difference of the 'male' and 'female' attitude to wild things, the difference between unpossessive love and gardening.

Also note the last passage - it might hint at a parody of Tolkien's academic friends and their wives.

It does seem that Tolkien put some traits of the Inklings into the Ents (especially Treebeard). Perhaps the Entmoot was a parody of their meetings at The Eagle and Child.

Biography:When eventually he [Tolkien] came to write this chapter [LR, ‘Treebeard’] (so he told Nevill Coghill [a member of the Inklings]) he modelled Treebeard’s way of speaking, ‘Hrum, Hroom’, on the booming voice of C. S. Lewis.

Treason of Isengard, ‘Treebeard’:There are some small particular points worthy of mention in this first part of the chapter. In the fair copy corresponding to TT pp. 66 – 7 … his [Treebeard’s] ejaculation 'Root and twig! ' replaced 'Crack my timbers!'

A note on this: A pencilled note on the fair copy says that 'Crack my timbers' had been 'queried by Charles Williams'. The same change was made at a later point in the chapter (TT p. 75).

Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and Charles Williams were all members of the Inklings. In my opinion it is not that farfetched then to suspect that the Entwives were a 'parody' of their wives.

[Alkanoonion]

I Disagree with 1 point

Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and Charles Williams were all members of the Inklings. In my opinion it is not that farfetched then to suspect that the Entwives were a 'parody' of their wives.


Would this not be the other way around? With the Inklings all meeting in The Eagle and Child for a regular drink and discussion, it should have been the wives looking for the men (or entwives looking for the ents) ;)

Also from your post on mt



Tolkien made this ‘assumption’ about the Entwives in Letter #144:
quote:

I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin …


I was going to post that this says all that needs to be said that the entwives are no more.

I have been thinking… no really I have…
;)

Could the disappearance of the entwives be a link to what was happening to Tolkien in his life at that time?

I ask this because Tolkien was fighting in the war, and was separated from his loved ones? Could this be the true reason? The letter 144 says that


I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin …

If the Ents lost the Entwives was this a mirror of Tolkien and his loved ones?

I so want to read more of that letter but I need to wait for payday to get a copy

[Formendacil]

However, he is right about the fact that the Ents were partly inspired by the Great Birnam wood in Macbeth; Tolkien himself tells us that:

Yes, and I think most Tolkien fans around here (those who have read your quoted letter anyway) were familiar with that fact...

What I fail to see here, is a connection between INSPIRATION (as between Birnam Wood and the Ents) and anything to do with WILD GOOSE CHASES. Quite frankly, I am highly skeptical that Tolkien would have written any clues into his story regarding the Entwives. He was a good deal more enamoured of leaving some things complete mysteries, such as Tom Bombadil, than he was of private in-jokes, clues, and hidden messages. When he felt the urge to explain something, or fit in a new historical explanation, he did so completely straightforwardly, albeit in his usual, alternate-versions/indecision mode of draft writing. As examples, I point you towards the cats of Queen Beruthiel and the "rods of the Five Wizards". Both are completely anomalous terms insofar as we know anything of their origin with regards to the text of the Lord of the Rings, but when Tolkien sat down to think up and explanation, he did not try to hide it whatsoever in his text elsewhere.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Alkanoonion posted:With the Inklings all meeting in The Eagle and Child for a regular drink and discussion, it should have been the wives looking for the men (or entwives looking for the ents) ;) I think that Tolkien was so often away at such meetings that his wife started to feel bad about it.

Biography:Even then, family life never entirely regained the equilibrium it had achieved in Leeds. Edith began to feel that she was being ignored by Ronald. In terms of actual hours he was certainly in the house a great deal: much of his teaching was done there, and he was not often out for more than one or two evenings a week. But it was really a matter of his affections. He was very loving and considerate to her, greatly concerned about her health (as she was about his) and solicitous about domestic matters. But she could see that one side of him only came alive when he was in the company of men of his own kind. More specifically she noticed and resented his devotion to Jack Lewis. Of course, she did not leave him, like the Entwives left the Ents. Perhaps Tolkien took his relationship problems one step further in the Ents-Entwives relationship.



I was going to post that this says all that needs to be said that the entwives are no more. I know that the letters about Entwives may be interpreted as indicating fairly strongly that the Entwives are dead, but I think that it is quite an 'amateurish' approach only to rely on these letters without bothering to check for hints about Entwives in the narrative.



Could the disappearance of the entwives be a link to what was happening to Tolkien in his life at that time?

I ask this because Tolkien was fighting in the war, and was separated from his loved ones? Tolkien 'invented' the Entwives in the 40s, but he did not fight in WW II - therefore I am pretty certain that the Entwives do not have anything to do with that war. He did fight in WW I, but he had not come up with the Entwives at that point, only 'proto-Ents', it seems.


Formendacil posted:Quite frankly, I am highly skeptical that Tolkien would have written any clues into his story regarding the Entwives. He was a good deal more enamoured of leaving some things complete mysteries, such as Tom Bombadil, than he was of private in-jokes, clues, and hidden messages. When he felt the urge to explain something, or fit in a new historical explanation, he did so completely straightforwardly, albeit in his usual, alternate-versions/indecision mode of draft writing. It seems that there are quite a few elements in Tolkien's writings of which there is not any explicit description. There are hints scattered throughout the texts that you have to piece together in order to get a better view of Tolkien's thinking, and there might be some things that Tolkien came up with but never wrote down, but they still work within and are a part of what he did write down. Actually, if everything were explicitly clear in his texts, we would not have these discussions, would we?

But I realise that some sort of a hidden joke would be different. However, the investigations of Child of the 7th Age have made me almost convinced that Teleporno at least thought that he had found something that he called a 'joke'.

He posted on MT:The reference of being "born of no woman" is to Julius Ceasar. The reverse, "slain by no man" (sic) is clearly his [Tolkien's] little joke. I am thinking that the joke could be a similar "reverse joke" - I checked all the famous Shakespeare quotes, but none of them looked familiar. But the joke does not necessarily have to be a reverse Shakespeare quote, it could be of someone else too. Maybe C.S. Lewis or Charles Williams?


Some weeks ago I sent an e-mail to Teleporno regarding his discovery, but have not received any reply.

[Earendilyon]

Yesterday, Hyarion (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/User:Hyarion) posted a link on TolkienNews (http://tolkiennews.net/) to a FAQ of the rec.arts.books.tolkien (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/msg/e91d95932190fdf3?) news group which contained the next answer to the question 'What became of the Entwives?' [To be complete, I quote the whole article, so I repost some quotes already posted in this thread.]


No definite answer was given to this question within the story. However, Tolkien did comment on the matter in two letters, and while he was careful to say "I think" and "I do not know", nevertheless the tone of these comments was on the whole pessemistic. Moreover, he doesn't seem to have changed his mind over time. The following was written in 1954 (in fact before the publication of LotR):

What happened to them is not resolved in this book. ... I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin. They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult -- unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know. Letters, 179 (#144)

Note that the above reference to a "scorched earth policy" by Sauron makes the destruction of the Entwives' land seem a much more serious and deliberate affair than was apparent from the main story, in which Treebeard merely said that "war had passed over it" (TT, 79 (III, 4)).

The following was written in 1972, the last year of Tolkien's life:

As for the Entwives: I do not know. ... But I think in TT, 80-81 it is plain that there would be for the Ents no re-union in 'history' -- but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were 'not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory.' .... Letters, 419 (#338)
[The reference to TT 80-81 is to the song of the Ent and the Ent-wife, as recited to Merry and Pippin by Treebeard; the speech by Aragorn which Tolkien quotes is from RK, 344 (Appendix A).]

While the above comments do not sound hopeful, there nevertheless remains the unresolved mystery of the conversation between Sam Gamgee and Ted Sandyman in The Green Dragon. It took place during the second chapter of FR and has been pointed to by many as possible evidence of the Entwives' survival:

'All right', said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.' 'Who's *they*?' 'My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. He *saw* one.' 'Says he did, perhaps. Your Hal's always saying that he's seen things; and maybe he sees things that ain't there.' 'But this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking -- walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch.' 'Then I bet it wasn't an inch. What he saw *was* an elm tree, as like as not.' 'But this one was *walking*, I tell you; and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors.' 'Then Hal can't have seen one', said Ted. FR 53-54 (I, 2)

Now, this conversation takes place early in the story, when its tone was still the "children's story" ambience of _The Hobbit_ (see LessFAQ, Tolkien, 1). When it is first read the natural reaction is to accept it as "more of the same" (i.e. another miscellaneous "fairy- story" matter). However, once one has learned about the Ents it is impossible to reread it without thinking of them. This impression is strengthened by Treebeard's own words to Merry and Pippin:

He made them describe the Shire and its country over and over again. He said an odd thing at this point. 'You never see any, hm, any Ents round there, do you?' he asked. 'Well, not Ents, *Entwives* I should really say.' '*Entwives*?' said Pippin. 'Are they like you at all?' 'Yes, hm, well no: I do not really know now', said Treebeard thoughtfully. 'But they would like your country, so I just wondered.' TT, 75 (III, 4)

Taken together, these two conversations make the notion that what Halfast saw was an Entwife seem at least plausible. However, as far as can be determined Tolkien never explicitly connected the matter with the Entwives, indeed never mentioned it at all. So we are left to speculate. (The fact that a creature described as being "as big as an elm tree" couldn't be an Ent doesn't prove anything one way or the other. It could indicate that the story is just a fabrication by a fanciful hobbit, but it is equally possible that a fourteen foot tall Ent might look gigantic to an unprepared hobbit and that the story was exaggerated in the telling.)

Nor is textual analysis helpful. Tolkien himself, in a discussion of his methods of invention, mentioned that the Treebeard adventure was wholly unplanned until he came to that place in the story:

I have long ceased to *invent* ... : I wait till I seem to know what really happened. Or till it writes itself. Thus, though I knew for years that Frodo would run into a tree-adventure somewhere far down the Great River, I have no recollection of inventing Ents. I came at last to the point, and wrote the 'Treebeard' chapter without any recollection of any previous thought: just as it now is. And then I saw that, of course, it had not happened to Frodo at all. Letters, 231 (#180)

The rough drafts in HoMe confirm that Sam and Ted's conversation was composed long before Ents ever entered the story (Return of the Shadow, 253-254; Treason, 411-414). Thus, Tolkien could not have had them in mind when he wrote it, and it must indeed have originally been a random, vaguely fantastic element. On the other hand, as he said of Tom Bombadil, who also entered the story early: "I would not have left him in if he did not have some kind of function." (Letters, 178) The implication is clear: everything in the early chapters which was allowed to remain was left in for a reason. When he did so with the Sam/Ted conversation he must have known how suggestive it would be. But how it fits in with the darker speculations expressed in his letters is not clear (unless he changed his mind later).

This may be a case of Tolkien's emotions being in conflict with his thoughts. T.A. Shippey has noted that "he was in minor matters soft-hearted" (RtMe, 173). (Thus, Bill the pony escapes, Shadowfax is allowed to go into the West with Gandalf, and in the late-written narratives of UT Isildur is shown using the Ring far more reluctantly than the Council of Elrond would suggest (UT, 271-285) and a way is contrived so that Galadriel might be absolved from all guilt in the crimes of Feanor (UT, 231-233)). It may be that, lover of trees that he was, Tolkien wished to preserve at least the hope that the Ents and Entwives might find each other and the race continue. But the unwelcome conclusions from what he elsewhere called "the logic of the story" must have proven inescapable.

[Earendilyon]

Were hobbits originally entwives? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1700) :eek: :D :rolleyes:

[Eowyn Skywalker]

Were hobbits originally entwives? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1700) :eek:

Summary? :eek:

Heh.

On topic. I played a game once called Petals Around the Rose. You can find it on google. The basic thing is just that it throws the dice and you can answer the number answer. But to get it right, thinking scientifically and logically only sets you to really losing your sanity.

But when you look at the game without thinking logically, it comes clear in moments.

In the same manner, I believe that Tolkien may very well have masked bits and pieces and perhaps little clues into his writing about the Entwives. I'm a skim reader and cannot offer incredibly wise quotes and scientific manner, but I can offer this. Tolkien never intended on making his writings into such an exceedingly deeply debated arguement. He wasn't trying to write allegory into everything. I forget the source for that idea. But yet, it's heavily inspired by myths and such.

It's quite possible to assume that there could very well be hidden findings. Easter eggs, shall we say?

Which leads me to another theory. Why weren't there five rings of power, and if there were, did the entwives receive them? Maybe they're invisible, the remaining entwives stalking the eaves of Middle-earth, searching their entish husbands with mournful voices...

(cough)

I intend on rereading the Two Towers in exceeding detail now. Oh, goody. Just what I wanted to do. ^_^

But I love the theories concerning the idea of Tolkien's wife. But an idea—is it explicitly said, anywhere, that entwives looked exactly like Ents?

[Formendacil]

Sorry, Ms. Skywalker, no offence is intended, but I have to disagree with you on all points. Please don't take the following personally:

In the same manner, I believe that Tolkien may very well have masked bits and pieces and perhaps little clues into his writing about the Entwives. I'm a skim reader and cannot offer incredibly wise quotes and scientific manner, but I can offer this. Tolkien never intended on making his writings into such an exceedingly deeply debated arguement. He wasn't trying to write allegory into everything. I forget the source for that idea. But yet, it's heavily inspired by myths and such.

As a matter of fact, Tolkien deliberately said that he wasn't writing allegory at all. How that proves the following, I'm not sure:

It's quite possible to assume that there could very well be hidden findings. Easter eggs, shall we say?

Is it indeed? Aren't allegories "hidden meanings"? What is the difference between an allegory and an Easter Egg, other than the topic? An Easter egg, by definition, is a hidden prize for the reader, which furthers the STORY not at all. In the same context, an allegory is a real world, typically more reference. Although placed in the story, it similarly has no real point with regards to the furthering of the STORY.

Note: I am speaking, of course, of allegory such as is found in C.S. Lewis's The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, an example being the correspondence of Aslan to Christ. From an internal perspective, Aslan and Christ's similarities have nothing to do with the workings of the tale. It is only to the outside observer -the reader- that the similarities have any meaning. Similarly, the Easter eggs you say exist have no internal purpose in the story: hidden clues about the Entwives have nothing to do with the story. Only to us, the outside readers, do they mean anything. Again, if they exist.

Which leads me to another theory. Why weren't there five rings of power, and if there were, did the entwives receive them? Maybe they're invisible, the remaining entwives stalking the eaves of Middle-earth, searching their entish husbands with mournful voices...

Only five Entwives? There were quite a few more Ents than Entwives then! Furthermore, if there had been Five Rings for the Ents, there would have been mention of it by the Wise, would there not? Or is this ANOTHER Easter Egg?

One, Three, Seven, and Nine are all numbers that tend to have symbolic meaning, in both the Judeo-Christian tradition to which Tolkien belonged, and among other cultures. The number five, although a proper part of an odd number sequence, does not. If Five is to be included, then why not two, four, eleven, and thirteen?

But I love the theories concerning the idea of Tolkien's wife. But an idea—is it explicitly said, anywhere, that entwives looked exactly like Ents?

Entwives may or may not have come from Tolkien's marital life. To be INSPIRED by something, whether consciously or unconsciously, does not make something a direct copy. The Entwives can have sprung from his own married life without being a direct reference back to that married life.

Again, my apologies if I have offended, such is not my intent. But I find myself in complete (it seems) disagreement.

[Earendilyon]

Which leads me to another theory. Why weren't there five rings of power, and if there were, did the entwives receive them?
It's a public secret among Tolkienists that the Five Rings of Power went to the Hobbits.

[Raynor]

As a matter of fact, Tolkien deliberately said that he wasn't writing allegory at all.I would say it is a matter of debate; there are numerous refferences in his letters to the inevitability of allegory, out of which I will quote a few:
of course, Allegory and Story converge, meeting somewhere in Truth. So that the only perfectly consistent allegory is a real life; and the only fully intelligible story is an allegory I dislike Allegory - the conscious and intentional allegory - yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language. In a larger sense, it is I suppose impossible to write any 'story' that is not allegorical in proportion as it 'comes to life'; since each of us is an allegory, embodying in a particular tale and clothed in the garments of time and place, universal truth and everlasting life

[Morsul the Dark]

is it as simple as looking for clues in the elven song about the entwives?

middle-earth is based off europe so maybe if someone is good at geography we can kind of look into it for example the entwives speak of corn i dont know much about corn but i can assume it comes from a more southern area?...thats the only clue i remember sadly the book isnt in front of me

[Morsul the Dark]

Im Double poting im evil!(although it is over a week later)


Does anyone think that bombadil's brooch has anything to do with the entwive'ss locations?

Assuming im right about Bombadil being an ent spirit the brooch may have been a clue to where entwives are...also the blue wizards...

Im not saying every little detail is connected but is it possible that the three biggest mysteries(blue wizards, bombadil, entwives) are connected somehow if they are then how?

[Iris Alantiel]

Having read all the evidence posted here and consulted Tolkien's own Letters , I'm afraid that I don't accept Teleporno's contention that Tolkien inserted a riddle to explain the Entwives' whereabouts somewhere into The Two Towers. I'm prepared to face Ardamir's charge that it is "quite an 'amateurish' approach only to rely on these letters without bothering to check for hints about Entwives in the narrative", but I don't agree with it. I think Tolkien's own written words about the narrative are perfectly sufficient evidence to counter what Teleporno has given us to argue in favour of his theory.

Earendilyon has already posted the relevant passages from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, so I won't repeat them except to reiterate a few very key points: "I think in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good" and, more importantly, "what happened to them is not resolved in this book" (both from Letter 144). Yes, it's true that there “are quite a few elements in Tolkien's writings of which there is not any explicit description”, but this is not one of them. He has explicitly told us, in this letter, what he knows about the Entwives. I certainly don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility for Tolkien to have included riddles in his text that he wants his readers to decipher, but I find it extremely hard to believe that he would then throw his readers off the trail by plainly stating that the riddles are not answered in the text in question. That seems to be the act of someone who doesn't want his riddle to be solved or discovered at all . . . and if that's the case, why bother writing a solution in the first place?

In any case, I somewhat question Teleporno's credibility. Child of the Seventh Age referred to his academic credentials, and in turn I point out that (unless someone on this board has knowledge to which I am not privy), we accept these things only on Teleporno's say-so, not with independent corroboration. It isn't hard to falsify credentials on Internet message boards . . . which does not necessarily indicate that Teleporno is doing so, but needs to be kept in mind nonetheless. I do find it interesting that the Shakespearean quote he references (about being "born of no woman") is in fact from Macbeth - one of the Weird Sisters tells Macbeth that "no man of woman born" can harm him, but Macduff is still able to because he was "from [his] mother's womb untimely ripped" (i.e. born by Caesarian section, which may account for the Caesar reference here). It has been some years since I read Julius Caesar, but I am fairly certain that no similar quote appears there . . . and if it does, it is certainly not as likely a source as the one from Macbeth is (since Macbeth's situation strongly parallels that of Éowyn and the Lord of the Nazgûl). Moreover, as someone who is nearing the completion of her fourth year of undergraduate study and preparing for graduate school next September, I find Teleporno's response to the suggestion that he publish his findings somewhat unprofessional, to say the least: “Tolkien Society people tell me to publish a paper on the idea. As if.” He should know by now that's not how academia works. And certainly the hint he gives us to help us find whatever he's discovered - "keep an eye on the clustering of certain types of words" - is vague enough that it could refer to almost any passage in the novel.

For my part, I am inclined to agree with Lindolirian, who said:I'm not too sure what this is all about finding answers and keeping them secrets, we usually like to share our knowledge and thus help each other grow in our understanding of Tolkien. Cyptic games are usually in The Quiz Room. Is that what this is, or am I misunderstanding you? Are we Tolkienites a community of sharing and helping one another, much like hobbits (now that I think of it), or are we not? Even if Teleporno isn't falsifying his credentials, and he is sincere in alleging his discovery, it seems the action of a mean old braggart to post repeatedly saying, "I've found this hugely exciting bit of information, and I'm not telling you where! NYAH!" I'm quite sorry to say it, because I've wanted badly to find the Entwives for some time now, but I have to confess that I think this is just a mistake at best, and a hoax at worst, that has taken in a lot of people who want to believe, against all hope, that the Ents can find their Entwives somewhere out there.

Then again, it seems Tolkien was a big fan of believing against all hope. So if that's where you are, please don't give up on my account. It's just one woman's opinion. And, hold it though I might, I certainly haven't given up on Ents and Entwives entirely, and I probably never will.

[davem]

Perhaps Tolkien gave a clue to the tragic fate of the Entwives in an illustration he made for an earlier Middle-earth work:

http://groups.msn.com/TMESiteB/tolkiensownartwork.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=289

[goldfinger]

Lol!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Im not saying every little detail is connected but is it possible that the three biggest mysteries(blue wizards, bombadil, entwives) are connected somehow if they are then how?

What a crazy RPG that would make! ;)

[Aaron]

Sorry for dragging up what could be perceived as an old topic but I don't wish to create one of my own on this very subject. In regard to the Entwives I beleive that this Teleporno could have been on to something. Now, I'm not one to put words into the mouths of men who are no longer with us but I feel that the whole mystery of the Entwives becoming "lost" has some ultimate answer for us readers to uncover in regards to their fate. On a side note, has Teleporno ever posted about his theories on the Minas Tirith site?

[Earendilyon]

No, he did not.

[Aaron]

Figures doesn't it? But what if the Entwives were still in Fangorn? Maybe they themselves became "treeish"?

[doug*platypus]

Then, surely Treebeard, master of Fangorn would have known this, and reported it to the hobbits, rather than asking if they knew of the Entwives.

Teleporno's idea that the location of the Entwives is encrypted somewhere within the second half of TTT is intriguing. Several posters here have stated that Tolkien did not engage in these kinds of easter egg hunts, but do we know that for sure? Especially in light of the following:


two of Bombadil's names, Forn and Orald, are possibly intentionally an anagram of "for Ronald" meaning for Tolkien, the author
Treebeard is a character based on CS Lewis
Beren and Lúthien are for Tolkien and his wife Edith
Smaug is a philological jest
And there are most likely others that I am not aware of... anyone care to add to the list?

IF (that's a big if) Tolkien did hide the location of the Entwives within the book, it is possible that he would have wished this to remain a secret to all but the careful literary detective, and this may be the reason he did not overtly state in Letters that the information was there. Particularly if he was lampooning suffragettes or others.

Of course, without Teleporno actually telling us where he thinks this information is, there is no way for us to debate whether he is onto something, or whether his love of the halflings' leaf has dulled his wits. I hope that he does at least think that he has found something; if he were trying to intentionally mislead us, that would be sad indeed...

[Aaron]

Indeed, could you perchance elaborate on your point about Smaug? It sounds intriguing.

[Raynor]

I believe that doug*platypus is referring to letter #25:
The dragon bears as name - a pseudonym - the past tense of the primitive Germanic verb Smugan, to squeeze through a hole: a low philological jest.

[Aaron]

Ah, I see. Me and a friend are going to try and find where the Entwives are, I know, I know, better men than I have tried and failed but it is possibly the greatest mystery within the entire book. I'm really hoping to figure something out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ah, I see. Me and a friend are going to try and find where the Entwives are, I know, I know, better men than I have tried and failed but it is possibly the greatest mystery within the entire book. I'm really hoping to figure something out.
Good luck (you gonna need it...)

All I have to say is only that after reading this thread, the day before yesterday I had a terrible dream about how I was seeking for that place in the book and then I found it... but I don't remember where it was, only I know that it was the worst nightmare, I was sitting home reading it sentence by sentence, a long time I spent near the moments when Frodo&Sam meet Faramir's men (perhaps Sam used the Entwives to start the fire for their lunch?), when they were at the Crossroad (someone of you appeared near to me and shouted about how the Entwives crowned the king's head again - I think someone posted it here before), and when they entered Imlad Morgul (the Entwives have transformed into these little deadly flowers). Huh, that was terrible!

[Aaron]

I beleive the Entwives to hae been in the Shire after a rereading. They loved order and gardens.
Sounds like a hobbit type of mentality, okay, that's pretty tenuous but it's all I got.

[will.r.french]

I just wanted to interject...

I think I've found what Teleporno is referring to. In the first few pages of Book 4 (chapter 1, like the first 5-8 pages of the book) Frodo and Sam are travelling through Emyn Muil (note the proximity of Emyn Muil to the Brown Lands, the last known domain of the entwives according to Treebeard) when they come upon ... well, here's the exerpt:

The cleft was longer and deeper than it seemed. Some way down they found a few gnarled and stunted trees, the first they had seen for days: twisted birch for the most part, with here and there a fir-tree. Many were dead and gaunt, bitten to the core by the eastern winds. Once in milder days there must have been a fair thicket in the ravine, but now, after some fifty yards, the trees came to an end, though old broken stumps straggled on almost to the cliff's brink. The bottom of the gully, which lay along the edge of a rock-fault, was rough with broken stone and slanted steeply down. When they cam at last to the end of it, Frodo stopped and leaned out.

This is the only mention of trees in the second half of the two towers that might mean something to someone (that I could find, don't stop looking on my account), but does this mean we've found the entwives?

It does not mean that to me. I'll admit when I found this exerpt and looked up the proximity of Emyn Muil to the Brown Lands, there was a flicker of hope. But IMO Tolkien did not give enough evidence to support this theory, if this is what Teleporno intended. What it means to me, I think, is the extent of the entwives gardens were larger than we originally may have thought on first read. They are larger than just the Brown Lands (if it encompassed Emyn Muil as well), and who knows how far in any and all directions they reached?

And that's my two cents.

[will.r.french]

Bah! The same bit of conjecture was made by "Wetwang" on the minas tirith board. Looks like he beat me by 3 years, 10 months, and 18 days. The search continues, I suppose. Or languishes in obscurity, whichever your taste prefers.

[goldfinger]

I think Teleporno was trying to wrile up the Tolkien community and see how long it would last. Because he said he was taking it to the Tolkien Society to see if they would agree with him, and that was several years ago.

[the phantom]

I didn't have much to do during Christmas break, so I got out LOTR and started reading.

I won't claim that I found the entwives. It is completely possible that the evidence I found is coincidence, and that Tolkien never intended for anyone to find the wives. But the fact remains that I found precisely what that Teleporno character was talking about- "word cluster" and "joke" and all.

What really amuses me is that the best piece of evidence is never mentioned at all by old Teleporno. Aside from the word cluster and the joke I found a very logical and rational reason to believe that I had spotted the entwives. To help you spot the logic, I will say this- there is something that does not make sense in the second half of TTT. It is a little thing. A tiny little action that is inconsistent with something that happens in the second half of FOTR and with information we know from FOTR and TTT.

And no, this isn't April Fool's Day come early. ;)

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Intriguing, the phantom... so the legend lives on. But how do we know if you are just another hoax? It seems that everyone who claims to have found this clue about the Entwives (3 people so far) is reluctant to provide much information, and nobody has fully revealed his/her discovery as of yet. But I guess that it is understandable that you do not want to reveal it all at once - it is such a neat thing to find so you want to give people a chance to do it themselves?

Are you sure that what you have found is not something that has been suggested before? Have you read this thread and the MT thread thoroughly?

[The Might]

it is such a neat thing to find so you want to give people a chance to do it themselves?
Depends on how you see it. Personally I'd rather have these peoplele come and say directly what they found.
But considering his remarks on the Entwives in the letters I doubt that any of these trees might have been the Entwives.

And to end this, I'd like to quote Tolkien. The quote is used to explain the presence of Tom Bombadil, but I believe that it can be used in many other cases:

And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are.

[Alcuin]

phantom, please, if you know something, say it, cite it, put it forward. I am relatively new to Barrow-downs, but I have seen this before in several threads. If it is there, then tell us where, and put forward all the evidence at your disposal. You have a solid reputation here: tell us what you know. Like Éowyn in her speech with Faramir, ‘I do not wish to play at riddles. Speak plainer!’

[Boromir88]

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if tp just said that so people would continually post begging him to reveal the info. Is that it Mr. Phantom? Am I warm? :p :rolleyes:

[Ardamir the Blessed]

I do not suppose that this is the 'tiny little action' in the second half of TTT that is inconsistent with something that happens in the second half of FOTR and information we know from FOTR and TTT?

TTT, Book II, 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit':

Sam, eager to see more, went now and joined the guards. He scrambled a little way up into one of the larger of the bay-trees.


FOTR, Book II, 'Lothlórien':

Legolas at once went down the ladder to take Haldir's message; and soon afterwards Merry and Pippin clambered up on to the high flet. They were out of breath and seemed rather scared. ... Hobbits do not like heights, and do not sleep upstairs, even when they have any stairs.


FOTR, Prologue:

The craft of building may have come from Elves or Men, but the Hobbits used it in their own fashion. They did not go in for towers. Their houses were usually long, low, and comfortable.

[Alcuin]

Forgive me, but I am confused. Would you please explain to me why that event is more “inconsistent with something that happens in the second half of FOTR and information we know from FOTR and TTT” than this one from Tower Towers, “Journey to the Cross-roads”?Gollum ... turned back towards the trees, working eastward for a while along the straggling edges of the wood. He would not rest on the ground so near the evil road, and after some debate they all climbed up into the crotch of a large holm-oak, whose thick branches springing together from the trunk made a good hiding-place and a fairly comfortable refuge...The bay tree, also known as the laurel and by many other names, is “an aromatic evergreen tree or large shrub reaching 10–18 m tall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_laurel),” although a British vendor says that “without pruning the tree will grow to 12m (40ft) high by 10m (32ft) wide (http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/fruit_veg_diary/fruit_veg_mini_project_september_3_bay2.asp).” Note that the plant – whether “tree or large shrub” – has limbs extending from the base of the tree almost as soon as it leaves the surface of the earth. For Sam to “[scramble] a little way up into one of the larger of the bay-trees” sounds to me as if he climbed no more than 3 or 4 feet at the most – about the height of his own head, in a tree (“or large shrub”) easy to climb in order to get a better view. http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/images/bay_laurel.jpg No great courage involved in that, and Ithilien was already described this way in one of the preceding chapters, “Herbs and Stewed Rabbit”:Many great trees grew there, planted long ago, falling into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants; and groves and thickets there were of tamarisk and pungent terebinth, of olive and of bay; and there were junipers and myrtles; and thymes … and marjorams and … parsleys, and many herbs of forms and scents beyond the garden-lore of Sam. … As [the Hobbits] walked, brushing their way through bush and herb, sweet odors rose about them.Ithilien in early spring was a riot of color and scent and smell – so much so that “Gollum coughed and retched.” (Perhaps he had hay-fever, or some other serious allergy, hm?) Finding a large bay-tree in Ithilien should be no more surprising that finding a paved street in Minas Tirith or an orc-hold in Morannon or a flet in Lórien or Sam Gamgee in an inn when home in Hobbiton. To “[scramble] a little way up into one of the larger of the bay-trees” is quite different from climbing to the top of a bay tree (“or large shrub”).

Feel free to accuse me of willful ignorance, but I fail to see the significance of this. I readily agree that it is a “‘tiny little action’ in the second half of TTT,” but I cannot agree that it “is inconsistent with something that happens in the second half of FOTR and information we know from FOTR and TTT,” or the rest of LotR, or The Hobbit, for that matter: even Bilbo could have “scrambled a little way up into one of the larger of the bay-trees” (“or large shrubs”), and for once without climbing onto Dori’s back or shoulders to inconvenience him or slow down the good-natured Longbeard.

If you were looking for something different in the behavior of Frodo and Sam (but not different in the behavior of Gollum, who according to Legolas at the “Council of Elrond” in FotR climbed “a high tree standing alone far from the others … up to the highest branches, until he felt the free wind; … he had learned the trick of clinging to boughs with his feet as well as with his hands...”), you can hardly do better than agreeing to climb “up into the crotch of a large holm-oak,” which often has no limbs for several feet off the ground. http://www.truffle-tree.co.uk/images/oak_tree.jpg But of course, sleeping in [i]flets and shimmying down 200-foot cliff-faces and climbing into the mallorns of Caras Galadhon whose “height could not be guessed, but … stood … in the twilight like living towers” (FotR, “Mirror of Galadriel”) and even far into the upper reaches of what was described as the mightiest mallorn in Lórien (and hence in all Middle-earth), not to mention walking in the shadow of the “tall houses” of Bree, might inure even the wooziest, most vertiginous Hobbit (Sam, perhaps?) to being overcome in a moment of sheer joy, excitement, and unprecedented expectation to climb 3, 4, 6 or even (gasp!) 9 feet – to see an Oliphant. (Two Towers, “Herbs and Stewed Rabbit”)To his astonishment and terror, and lasting delight, Sam saw a vast shape crash out of the trees and come careering down the slope. Big as a house, much bigger than a house, it looked to him, a grey-clad moving hill. ... On he came, straight towards the watchers [including Sam], and then swerved aside in the nick of time, passing only a few yards away, rocking the ground beneath their feet...

Sam drew a deep breath. ‘An Oliphant it was!’ he said.To be fair, Sam “scrambled a little way up into one of the larger of the bay-trees” (“or large shrubs”) in order to get a glimpse of the battle between the Rangers of Ithilien and the Southrons, but he was rewarded for his dash of derring-do with the sight of a Mûmakil of Harad.

Maybe I’m just being obstinate, but I fail to see what “[scrambling] a little way up into one of the larger of the bay-trees” (“or large shrubs”) in a land already stipulated to be full of bay trees or laurels or whatever other lovely names you care to apply to them, as well as lots of other trees, bushes and shrubs redolent with aromatic fragrance like the bay-trees (“or large shrubs”) which by inference were planted by the Númenóreans in the first days of their colonization (“Many great trees grew there, planted long ago, falling into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants,” remember?) has to do with the Entwives.

Ardamir, I have given you a very hard time in this post, but I know you from other forums and do respect you. I hope you – and others – will read it in the spirit of light-hearted mischief in which it was intended. I must salute you for having the courage to step up to the plate (an American saying – it’s a baseball reference) and offer this morsel, which you must have guessed would be torn to shreds by the first raptor that could sink its claws into it. I have read your essay “The Great Search” (http://www.abo.fi/~jolin/tolkien/essays/the_great_search.htm), and I commend you on your scholarship and efforts; but to the lasting regret and sorrow of the Ents (and many, many readers of LotR), I just don’t believe the Entwives will ever be found. (http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001541;p=20#000 498)

[Ardamir the Blessed]

It was just a suggestion, I remembered that Sam climbs a tree in "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit" and realized that it could be inconsistent with other passages. I did not think it was very likely that the phantom was referring to this either (that was why I wrote "I do not suppose that ..."), but I thought it best to post it.

The latest version of my Entwives essay can be found at Tolkien Gateway here (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/User:Ardamir/Essays/Entwives). I am going to move my Tolkien homepage in its entirety there as well.

[the phantom]

Am I warm?
Heh heh.... a bit tepid, perhaps. Not warm.

As I said before, I do not claim to have spotted the Entwives. I only claim to have found something that meshes with what I've read from that Teleporno chap. And no, I haven't read everything he's written. I'm a busy guy.

As far as the "inconsistency" that I've found that could possibly hint that there is something more than meets the eye going on... it's something absolutely stupid that most would explain away by saying "It's magic, phantom!" or something similar.

Let's see if that helps you. Something "magical" happens in the second half of TTT- something that, if you refuse to believe in the magic of the situation, could be used as further evidence of Entwives in that location. And I say "further" because there is already some amount of evidence in Tolkien's wording. Though naturally evidence can be found where none exists if you are looking hard enough.

And the joke angle mentioned earlier- I did not confirm it without first assuming that one existed in the first place. After making that assumption I was then able to concede that it was possible that a joke was present in the passage. I did not attempt to discover what precisely the joke was, though I have some idea. I'm not really concerned with it. In my mind it is the most subjective evidence we have, and so I'm ignoring it as we can neither prove nor refute it. Twas the wording and magical event that jumped out at me when I read the passage.

(I was not looking for the Entwives when I read it.)

[CSteefel]

I suppose the Phantom is referring to the place where the Elvish rope comes untied on its own once Sam and Frodo have descended the cliff. They tied the rope on to the same stump mentioned before as part of the trees found in the gully or cleft in which they were descending the eastern face of the Ewyn Muil.

I had always assumed this was "magic" associated with the rope, but the Phantom points to the fact that when the ropes are used in Lothlorien to cross the river, they had to be untied by the Elves. I suppose this is the inconsistency that Phantom is referring to.

Seems a bit of a stretch to conclude that an Entwife helped the hobbits along by untying it. In addition, from everything we know about the Entiwives, they hung out on the plains, tending gardens rather than groves of trees. I suppose this could have been a group that fled Sauron's armies, but the evidence is mightly slim here...

[Boromir88]

Heh heh.... a bit tepid, perhaps. Not warm.
Hey if the phantom calls me lukewarm, I'll take that.

Though you know I don't do wild easter egg hunts, I can't commentate, and argue with you about how wrong you are until you reveal what you found. :p :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

CS- Yes.
I can't commentate, and argue with you about how wrong you are until you reveal what you found.
Ah, but be warned, as this is a crackpot theory with no absolute proof whatsoever, I am likely to argue very passionately for it. Don't start the argument unless you are prepared to go the distance, Boro, for I intend to take this to absurd lengths.

[Alcuin]

Ah, but be warned, as this is a crackpot theory with no absolute proof whatsoever, I am likely to argue very passionately for it. Don't start the argument unless you are prepared to go the distance, Boro, for I intend to take this to absurd lengths.Well, that leaves me to ask the Irishman’s question upon entering a pub and encountering two men brawling at the bar: “Is this a private fight, or can anybody join in?”

[Boromir88]

I expect nothing less from you tp ;) . I will make a prediction though of how this will go. See, you'll reveal what you've found, after there are a few rebuttals back and forth it will end with me spieling on about 'reader applicability,' and it all depends upon whether the reader sees it that way or not. Aye, that's how it will end.

Alcuin, the more the merrier...perhaps tp's just building up my anticipation to crush it in a few minutes, but I want to get this matter down and done with. :D

[the phantom]

Is this a private fight, or can anybody join in?
Ha ha ha! :D I suppose anyone is welcome to throw a punch or two, so long as the spirit of the fight is not ruined.

What is the spirit of this fight, you ask? Decidedly drunken.

Oh, and I'd warn you not to join my side yet. You might want to wait and see how I respond to a couple of arguments before aiding me, so that you can understand fully the extremity of my position.

My opponents- you are free to start any time you'd like. I've already given you a target by agreeing with CS's last post. I do indeed believe that the rope incident is concrete indisputable insurmountable undeniable proof that an Entwife was present in the gully.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Maybe the tree stump was all that was left of an Entwife, with just enough consciousness to realize that these were good guys, since they had Elven rope, so the stump released the rope?


(No, this is not my serious standpoint; I'm one of those people who throw a punch to get a fight going, then step back and watch the others get hurt! ;) )

[Alcuin]

Ok, I’ll start with the tree on the cliff top in the Emyn Muil. I posted most of this before at Minas Tirith. (http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001541;p=20#000 498) I assume my friends there will not be offended if I modify it slightly for reposting here.


First of all, my beef on this is that I think that anyone who claims that he’s found something in the text, especially something as interesting as the fate of the Entwives, and then provides no evidence is either perpetrating a hoax or else extremely deficient in both personal maturity and net etiquette. Chanting the mantra, “I know a secret you don’t know,” is a taunt, not an invitation to discussion.

I have no idea what the guy who originally started this (http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00003174) thought he’d found, or if the guy was simply firing up a hoax to get the rest of us spinning in a dither. Ardamir the Blessed (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/member.php?u=3694), who posts under the moniker “Herendil (http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001494)” at Minas Tirith, started this thread, the one we’re in now, (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=438081&postcount=1) about the subject, and a new poster under the name “will.r.french” posted something that got me thinking (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=502910&postcount=38): There is at least an outside chance that at least one Entwife does show up in Lord of the Rings.

The evidence is sparse and circumstantial, but at the risk of ruining my reputation, I’ll post it for discussion. I will try to quote chapter and verse to make it as clear as possible, and then I will discuss what I see as its most obvious problem. There is no “inside game” or “philological jest” in this material, nor is there anything that might reflect on Tolkien’s friends, his wife Edith, or any of the other women even remotely associated with the Inklings, as far as I can tell.

Antecedents

The Ents rather looked like the trees they tended, or so it has always seemed to me. The description of Quickbeam, for instance, recalls to mind a rowan tree, which grows quickly (Bregalad the Ent was nicknamed “Quickbeam” because he was “hasty” for an Ent), and he was himself fond of rowans. At the Entmoot, Merry and Pippin noted the various appearances of the different ents (Two Towers, “Treebeard”):…Merry and Pippin were struck … by the variety that they saw: the many shapes, and colors, the differences in girth; and height, and length of leg and arm; and in the number of toes and fingers (anything from three to nine). A few … reminded them of beech-trees or oaks. … Some recalled the chestnut: brown-skinned Ents with large splayfingered hands, and short thick legs. Some recalled the ash: tall straight grey Ents with many-fingered hands and long legs; some the fir (the tallest Ents), and others the birch, the rowan, and the linden. All of these are what Treebeard called “the great trees” in his discussion of the Entwives with Merry and Pippin; but he told them that the Entwives had given their attention to other trees:…the Entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees… and … the sloe in the thicket, and the wild apple and the cherry blossoming in spring.... The Entwives ordered them to grow according to their wishes, and bear leaf and fruit to their liking; for the Entwives desired order, and plenty, and peace (by which they meant that things should remain where they had set them). …the Entwives were bent and browned by their labor…If the Ents resembled “the great trees” of the forest, then perhaps the Entwives more resembled “the lesser trees,” or at least, they were smaller and of slighter build than the Ents. Consider for instance the name of Treebeard’s beloved: “ah! the loveliness of Fimbrethil, of Wandlimb the lightfooted, in the days of our youth!”

The Entwives had established their gardens in the region south of Greenwood the Great, which later became the forest of Mirkwood. Then when the Darkness came in the North [Morgoth: see also Hammond & Scull, Reader’s Companion, p 387], the Entwives crossed the Great River, and made new gardens, and tilled new fields, and we saw them more seldom. After the Darkness was overthrown the land of the Entwives blossomed richly, and their fields were full of corn.Later, the Last Alliance of Men and Elves fought a battle with Sauron and his armies of Mordor in the land of the Entwives, and it was destroyed:...the gardens of the Entwives are wasted: Men call them the Brown Lands now. ...in the time of the war between Sauron and the Men of the Sea... We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there.And of course, the Ents began to hunt for them: ...we asked all folk that we met which way the Entwives had gone. ...some said that they had seen them walking away west, and some said east, and others south. But nowhere that we went could we find them.We explicitly know the position of the Brown Lands, for they are marked on Tolkien’s map between Mirkwood and the Emyn Muil east of the Anduin.

Observation

In Two Towers, “The Taming of Sméagol”, Sam and Frodo find themselves faced with what appears at first to be an insurmountable barrier: the cliffs of the eastern faces of the Emyn Muil:At last they were brought to a halt. The ridge took a sharper bend northward and was gashed by a deeper ravine. On the further side it reared up again, many fathoms at a single leap: a great grey cliff loomed before them… They could go no further forwards… west would lead them only into more labor and delay…; east would take them to the outer precipice.

‘There's nothing for it but to scramble down this gully, Sam,’ said Frodo.Now, observe in particular the description of the place in which they halted: The cleft was longer and deeper than it seemed. Some way down they found a few gnarled and stunted trees, the first they had seen for days: twisted birch for the most part, with here and there a fir-tree. Many were dead and gaunt, bitten to the core by the eastern winds. Once in milder days there must have been a fair thicket in the ravine, but now, after some fifty yards, the trees came to an end, though old broken stumps straggled on almost to the cliff's brink.Frodo attempts to climb the cliff face but falls. At this point, Sam remembers the Elven rope he had been given in Lórien.Sam unslung his pack ... at the bottom was a coil of the silken-grey rope made by the folk of Lórien. He cast an end to his master. ... Leaning his weight forward, [Frodo] made the end fast round his waist, and then he grasped the line with both hands.

Sam stepped back and braced his feet against a stump a yard or two from the edge. Half hauled, half scrambling. Frodo came up and threw himself on the ground.The Hobbits discuss how they might use the rope to get down the cliff; Sam estimates the distance to the bottom at “thirty ells, or … about eighteen fathom”, and on this point Christopher Tolkien comments in The War of the Ring, “The Taming of Sméagol”, footnote 11, that his father spent some time working out the height in “hobbit-ells” to account for the distance in height. Christopher Tolkien estimates the height of the cliff at 187½ feet and the length of the rope somewhat longer, so that there would be 4½ feet of rope to spare (‘there was still a good bite in Frodo’s hands, when Same came to the bottom’, TT p. 216)The Hobbits decide to tie off the rope at the top of the cliff in Two Towers: Frodo thought for a while. ‘Make it fast to that stump, Sam!’ he said.Once on the bottom of the cliff, Sam realized his new problem: ‘Noodles! My beautiful rope! There it is tied to a stump, and we’re at the bottom. Just as nice a little stair for that slinking Gollum as we could leave…’But magically, as it were, the rope resolved the problem for them: [Sam] looked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell.

To the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came loose. Sam fell over, and the long grey coils slithered silently down on top of him. Frodo laughed. ‘…To think that I trusted all my weight to your knot!’

Sam did not laugh. ‘I may not be much good at climbing, Mr. Frodo,’ he said …, ‘but I do know something about rope and about knots. It’s in the family, as you might say. …my grand-dad, and my uncle Andy … had a rope-walk over by Tighfield many a year. And I put as fast a hitch over the stump as any one could have done, in the Shire or out of it.’Sam and Frodo then fall to discussing how this might be:‘Then the rope must have broken – frayed on the rock-edge, I expect,’ said Frodo.

‘I bet it didn’t!’ said Sam in an even more injured voice. He stooped and examined the ends. ‘Nor it hasn’t neither. Not a strand!’

‘Then I’m afraid it must have been the knot,’ said Frodo.

Sam shook his head and did not answer. He was passing the rope through his fingers thoughtfully. ‘Have it your own way, Mr. Frodo,’ he said at last, ‘but I think the rope came off itself – when I called.’ He coiled it up and stowed it lovingly in his pack.

I have read Lord of the Rings fifty times or more. I never questioned that Sam was correct, and the rope came down to Sam of its own, Elvishly magical accord.

Hypothesis

There is another possibility. The rope could have been deliberately thrown down to the Hobbits below. Assuming that Gollum was not being helpful, remember that the only things at the top of the cliff were …a few gnarled and stunted trees, … twisted birch for the most part, with here and there a fir-tree. …old broken stumps straggled on almost to the cliff's brink.Could one these stumps be a battered, broken Entwife?

First, compare the description just cited of the ruined grove to part of that of the Ents at the Entmoot:Some recalled … the fir (the tallest Ents), and others the birch…Remember, too, Merry and Pippin’s first encounter meeting Treebeard:High up, … there was a shelf under a cliff. Nothing grew there but a few grasses and weeds at its edge, and one old stump of a tree with only two bent branches left: it looked almost like the figure of some gnarled old man, standing there, blinking in the morning-light.From these passages we can draw some parallels to the descriptions of the Ents at the Entmoot and of the unsuspecting Merry and Pippin’s initial impression of Treebeard’s to what Frodo and Sam perceived in the Emyn Muil: firs and birches, and stumps. (Treebeard also resembled “the distant stump of an old tree” when Merry and Pippin left Isengard in the company of Gandalf, Aragorn, Théoden and Éomer; Two Towers, “The Palantír”.)

If one or more of the Entwives had fled south from their gardens which became the Brown Lands into the Emyn Muil, they would also have become trapped at the edge of the tall cliff, and might have had to withstand whatever happenstance then overtook them: war, fire, axes. There the survivors remained, maimed and injured, until Sam tied a stout hitch around an Entwife, and he and Frodo climbed down the cliff. The Entwife, perhaps having heard Frodo and Sam’s voices, and their discussion of Elves and of the rope given the Hobbits, then tossed the rope down after them. After all, Treebeard liked the sound of Merry and Pippin’s voices when he met them (“Treebeard”):‘…I heard your voices – I liked them: nice little voices; they reminded me of something I cannot remember ... Very odd you are, indeed. Root and twig, very odd!’The Elven rope was unbroken, and it came, it seemed, Providentially at the heartfelt wish of Sam.

The Entwife and any surviving companions might have remained in that place down the centuries believing that they were the only survivors of their kind of the great war at the end of the Second Age, becoming “tree-ish” and “sleepy” with time, like Leaflock the Ent. Of Leaflock, Treebeard told Merry and Pippin,Leaflock has grown sleepy, almost tree-ish, you might say: he has taken to standing by himself half-asleep all through the summer with the deep grass of the meadows round his knees. Covered with leafy hair he is. He used to rouse up in winter; but of late he has been too drowsy to walk far even then.Supposing that there was an Entwife among the stumps at the top of the cliff, she might have roused when Frodo and Sam arrived, but kept herself hidden – perhaps the only reason she had survived attacks by the forces of Mordor – moving only when the two Hobbits were already at the bottom of the cliff and no longer posed any perceived threat, but in need of assistance in retrieving the rope.

Objections

I can think of numerous objections to this hypothesis.

First and foremost, there is no mention of any of the stumps being Ents or Entwives in any of the drafts, as far as I can tell. In War of the Ring, “The Taming of Sméagol”, Christopher Tolkien makes one reference to Ents, and that only by way of discussing when Frodo and Sam were doing what, as well as Merry and Pippin and the rest of the Company of the Ring: in the timeline, Tolkien was working who was where and doing what. (See “Note on Chronology” at the end of the chapter, after the footnotes.) Moreover, the discussion of the rope in the drafts centered on the fear of Frodo and Sam that Gollum would follow them by using the rope. Christopher Tolkien says that his father resolved their difficulty about leaving the rope from the cliff-top for Gollum to use by simply not introducing the question into their calculations until they had both reached the bottom.Christopher Tolkien notes that The fir-trees in the gully would have a narrative function in the final form of the story, … for Sam would brace his foot against one of those stumps, and tie the rope to it…Of the rope coming undone at Sam’s desire, all he mentions is thatSam’s uncle, the Gaffer’s eldest brother, owner of the rope-walk ‘over by Tighfield’, now appears …, but he was at first called Obadiah Gamgee, not Andy.Christopher Tolkien says that this material was written around 5 April 1944, when in Letter 59, his father wrote him thatI have gone back to Sam and Frodo, and am trying to work out their adventures. A few pages for a lot of sweat: but at the moment they are just meeting Gollum on a precipice. Tolkien may continue to discuss this in Letter 60, written 13 April 1944; on 23 April 1944, he reported to his son that he had read “Passage of the Dead Marshes” to C.S. Lewis and Charles Williams in Letter 62.

In defense of the hypothesis, it might be pointed out that in “Note on Chronology”, Christopher Tolkien remarks that details of the timeline were still being worked out in October 1944, some six months later; it is possible that Tolkien introduced the idea of an Entwife throwing down the rope anywhere in that time. (Possible, but not likely, in my opinion.)

More serious are objections based upon Tolkien’s own words regarding the Entwives in his Letters. In Letter 144 to Naomi Mitchison written 25 April 1954, some ten years later, he wrote that Tom Bombadil ... has no connection in my mind with the Entwives. What had happened to them is not resolved in this book. ...

I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, ... destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance ... when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin... They survived only in the ‘agriculture’ transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult – unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know. That passage has led me to conclude that Sauron might have taken some of the Entwives and enslaved them around the Sea of Núrnen, where he kept slave-farms to feed his armies; however, even the Nurn was occupied, or at least explored, by the victorious Elves and Númenóreans at the end of the Second Age and the beginning of the Third Age, when many of the ancient maps of Mordor that Elrond possessed in Rivendell that Frodo, Aragorn, and Gandalf consulted before their departure were prepared. Any Entwives found alive by the allies would have been set free. (There is a reference to rope-making and Tighfield in relation to the name “Gamgee” in Letter 144, but it does not refer to the “magic” of the Elven rope or to any purported intervention of an Ent or Entwife at the cliff.)

In Letter 338 in June 1972, near the end of his life, Tolkien again addressed the question of the Entwives, writing that As for the Entwives: I do not know. …I think in [The Two Towers] it is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in 'history' – but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some ‘earthly paradise’ until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were ‘not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory.’ Again, there is no mention whatever of any Entwives in the eastern Emyn Muil.

Finally, we must ask ourselves, if an Entwife survived, why would she remain on the cliff in the Emyn Muil? And why did the Ents not find her? Are we to presume that she was part insensate or “shell-shocked” as a result of the trauma of the war? Or that perhaps she believed all the Ents dead but she? (That would be hopelessness, something Tolkien condemns: cf. the end of Denethor by his own hand.) Perhaps she saw herself as broken and ugly, so much so that she sought to stay away from her own kind, even if she heard them looking for her. (Again, this would be hopelessness.) None of those arguments are particularly convincing to me.

Conclusion

I put no credence whatsoever in the idea that there are “clusters” and “jokes” instilled into Lord of the Rings regarding the Entwives. That Treebeard is in some ways patterned on C.S. Lewis, particularly his “hm, hoom,” is well-known (Humphrey Carter, Tolkien: A biography, ‘The New Hobbit’, p 194); however, I see no evidence that the Entwives or their fate is based upon any similar relationship to anyone that Tolkien knew. As far as I am concerned, anyone claiming that there are such “clusters,” internal or private jokes, or referential material concerning the Entwives and people whom Tolkien knew will have to document those claims clearly and convincingly: for now, I do not believe any such “clusters” or jokes deliberately embedded by Tolkien exist.

While the notion that the stump at the top of the cliff in the Emyn Muil was an Entwife is very appealing, it is based entirely upon circumstance and speculation. There is nothing, to my knowledge, in the rest of Tolkien’s corpus that would suggest that the stump was anything other than a stump. In that case, the propitious fall of the Elven rope after its use is due either to “Elvish magic” or the kind of Providence that led Gildor and the wandering Noldor to come upon Frodo, Sam, and Pippin in the Woody End just in time to scare off the Nazgûl tracking them. Without further evidence to support it, the objections against the stump being an Entwife are more compelling to me.

But it was worth a good essay!

[the phantom]

You know, I think I'll go ahead and throw a big punch. Let's get this thing going.

Someone or something untied the rope in that scene. That's the only explanation.

In Lorien, Tolkien specifically mentions that the Elves had to untie the ropes from the trees and then draw them in. Tolkien also mentions more than once that Sam was very skilled with ropes and knots. And then there is the rope incident. What is the point of it?! Did Tolkien have it happen just to contradict himself? No, obviously not. I don't think Tolkien would contradict the logic that his own words created if there wasn't a point to it.

Plus, if it was indeed magic rope that could come untied via thoughts/wishes, don't you think the Elves would've warned them about it? "Oh, and be careful using this rope. A flick of your mind can cause it to come untied." I mean, isn't that a pretty important bit of info to leave out?

Plus, Haldir is a show off. We have evidence of that. Remember this, from FOTR, Lothlorien-
"This is how we cross! Follow me!" He made his end of the rope fast about another tree, and then ran lightly along it, over the river and back again, as if he were on a road.
"I can walk this path," said Legolas; "but the others have not this skill. Must they swim?"
That part always annoyed me. Haldir knew good and well that everyone in the Fellowship couldn't walk on a rope, so what was the point of doing that little stunt? Showing off, obviously. And since we're dealing with such a show off, don't you think that if the ropes could be untied magically he would've done so?

Answer- yes.

But he didn't. Further proof that ropes, even from Lothlorien, don't just untie themselves.

Someone or something was in that gully and untied Sam's rope.

It's a fact.

[Alcuin]

You know, I think I'll go ahead and throw a big punch. Let's get this thing going.We cross-posted.

I did not consider Haldir and crossing the Silverlode, but I think I have already addressed the “magical’ rope and its coming undone.

[the phantom]

Nice piece of work, Alcuin.

For right now, I'm only going to respond to one little thing that you wrote.
In that case, the propitious fall of the Elven rope after its use is due either to “Elvish magic” or the kind of Providence that led Gildor and the wandering Noldor to come upon Frodo, Sam, and Pippin in the Woody End just in time to scare off the Nazgûl tracking them.
If it was "Elvish magic", I think they would have been told about it (as they were told about the boats and cloaks), and I also believe that we would've seen the magic in operation in Lothlorien. Surely Haldir would've taken advantage of it.

As far as providence, which I had already considered and just not mentioned yet- why waste providence on this situation? Tolkien only uses happy chance and divine intervention when it makes sense. Why use it now? It served no purpose. It did not help them hide from Gollum in the least. He found them that very night despite the absence of the rope on the cliff. And the rope proved to be useless as a leash for Gollum, as he could not abide the touch of it. There was no need for the rope to be saved.

[Formendacil]

Very succint and easy to read, Alcuin. I fear, however, that you're missing the entire direction that the Phantom is going here. He said, and I paraphrase, that he has found a crackpot theory that he thinks he can logically make a good case out of, and he intends to ride it out for all it's worth, for the pure fun of it.

See, you're arguing as if any theory about the Entwives was reasonable. I don't think anyone (other than Ardamir the Blessed and his ilk) actually thinks we can find the Entwives. We're just looking for a coherent theory that COULD logically not contradict the books.

That said, you could be on the right track with the Elven magic, though I find the Phantom's counter-argument about boastful Haldir to be more convincing. Perhaps it was a secret that Haldir wasn't allowed/didn't want to reveal? Kind of like having Dwarves walk blindfolded through the Naith.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

The fact that the Elves untied the ropes that were used to cross the Silverlode is an interesting, new observation (to me at least).

the phantom posted:

And since we're dealing with such a show off, don't you think that if the ropes could be untied magically he would've done so?
I am not that sure about this. Something tells me that the Elves would not have been so willing to show their magic explicitly. The style of LOTR is that the magic of the Elves is otherworldly, mysterious and difficult to understand - in the Silmarillion the magic is more explicit. Furthermore, the Elves did not really need the ropes to untie themselves, since they could do it - Sam was in a different situation. Maybe these ropes only untie themselves if you really wish for it, as a last resort.

But did you find Teleporno's hidden 'joke' also in relation to the passages concerning Sam's rope?

[Alcuin]

The argument that there was an Entwife at the top of the cliff in the Emyn Muil is, as far as I can determine, the only time an Entwife might have appeared in the text.

For reference, however, careful reading will reveal that Aragorn’s deduction about why the Ringwraiths did not again attack Frodo immediately after stabbing him on Weathertop was in error: he believed that the Nazgûl thought Frodo mortally wounded and unable to flee, when in fact Tolkien’s notes (Reader’s Companion, p. 180) show that the Witch-king…was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful)… [A]bove all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How had he come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl…

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and his for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But if you check Hammond & Scull for Tolkien’s notes on the Entwives, the operative citation (p. 387) is to quote the same two letters I have already mentioned.

So there’s nothing in the Letters, nothing in the drafts, and nothing in the notes about the stump being an Entwife; in fact, Tolkien says on at least two separate occasions that he does not believe they will ever be found. When he discusses Tom Bombadil, a similar reader’s favorite, he is deliberately coy and evasive; but in discussing the Entwives, his tone is downbeat and rather final.

Arguing for the stump as an Entwife is a mental exercise – “worth a good essay” – but I believe it has no textual basis. Now can anyone cite any text – notes, letters, Christopher Tolkien’s editorial comments are all fair game – that can give any basis to the speculation?

Or must it remain nothing but speculation and innuendo, with no real substance in the corpus to back it up?

And I still see no “hidden jokes” in any of this, except the name “Teleporno”.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

the phantom posted:

There was no need for the rope to be saved.

They did have use of the rope later on, actually almost immediately afterwards - they tied Gollum with it.

[Alcuin]

the phantom posted:There was no need for the rope to be saved. They did have use of the rope later on, actually almost immediately afterwards - they tied Gollum with it. tp, you have also overlooked the obvious in Tolkien’s narrative problem documented by Christopher Tolkien in War of the Ring. The dangling rope was a means not only for Gollum to more easily follow them, but for him and any other pursuit – orcs or Nazgûl – to determine that the trail was hot.

[Sardy]

I've been following this thread with great interest, and thought I'd throw in a few thoughts for consideration...

And I still see no “hidden jokes” in any of this, except the name “Teleporno”.

Not being nearly as versed in biographies of Tolkien as in the LotR/Sil/HoME, I would like to see if anyone more knowledgeable about the lives, histories, anecdotes, etc. of Tolkien, his wife Edith, family, friends, et al might be aware of anything that might consitute a "joke" within the text. Of course, this would most likely require some detective work, scouring of texts, and out-of-the-box thinking... But as an example, in reading the above I found myself wondering what sort've personal anecdote or experience of Tolkien might consitute a "joke" within the text regarding the Entwives. One (purely speculative) example might be if Tolkien (or a friend of Tolkien's) were ever in a stuation by which they'd imcompetently tied a knot, and when called out on it, with great bravo explained to his wife that it was not incompetence, but rather, expert skill, "magic" even that caused the unravelling... This (purely made-up) example of a real life anecdote would perfectly jive with the "inside joke" within the text. I am certainly not proposing my own fabricated example as anything other than a sample of the sorts of things that one might look for in the text of the Tolkien biographies... something that might, however loosely, be related to Tolkien's descriptions of the Ents, the Ent-Wives, or any of the seeming inconsistencies pointed out in the articles above...


The argument that there was an Entwife at the top of the cliff in the Emyn Muil is, as far as I can determine, the only time an Entwife might have appeared in the text.And I still see no “hidden jokes” in any of this, except the name “Teleporno”.

Forgive me if this has been covered before, but what of the "walking trees" spotted in the Shire, as mentioned ealy on in Fellowship? (Not to derail this fascinating thread, if this has been covered or is innapropriate, a simple link to the topic would be fine!)


...in fact, Tolkien says on at least two separate occasions that he does not believe they will ever be found.

At the risk of sounding overly picky, there's a semantic consideration to consider here. Tolkien's stated belief is that the Ent-wives will never be found by the Ents. This is an important consideration. His assertion that there will be no re-union between the Ents and their wives is a very different thing than saying that there are no clues or Ent-wives hidden in the text for the readers.

[Alcuin]

Sardy, there are certainly instances of “inside humor” in Tolkien’s work. The character Tom Bombadil, whose creation predates Lord of the Rings by several years, having first appeared in poetry by Tolkien published in Oxford Magazine in 1934 (Tolkien recalled the year as 1933 in Letter 144, perhaps because he had submitted the poems then or they had been accepted for publication then), and his appearance “was based on a Dutch doll that belonged to [Tolkien’s son] Michael.” (Tolkien: A biography, Humphrey Carter, p 162) Tolkien said in Letter 25 that the name Smaug “is the past tense of the primitive Germanic verb Smugan, to squeeze through a hole: a low philological jest.” And Humphrey Carter says that the speaking pattern of Treebeard is based upon that of C.S. Lewis (Carter, p 194). My point is that there seem to be no such “inside jokes” or references surrounding the Entwives; and even if there were, they might not be found in Tolkien’s notes, but in those of Charles Williams, C.S. Lewis’s, or even Lewis’s brother Warnie, if Warnie left any papers and they still exist. I can’t find “clusters of words” or “inside jokes” about the Entwives, and I’ve never seen evidence for any, either: so far, just unsubstantiated and empty claims of “clusters of words” and “inside jokes.”

As far as an “incompetently tied … knot,” I am unaware of any such incident, but perhaps someone else is. Mr. Bliss, a kind of Tolkien comic-book he drew and wrote for his children published posthumously, is based upon Tolkien’s misadventures with an automobile he purchased in 1932: Mr. Bliss wrecked his car and sold it, never to purchase another, and I believe something similar happened to Tolkien, although I cannot find anything about that in Carter’s biography.

Tolkien visited Switzerland in 1911. There are parallels between some of the sights he saw and experiences he had then to later places and events in Lord of the Rings, particularly the appearance of the Mountains of Moria and the name of Celebdil, the Silvertine, with the Swiss mountain, the Silberhorn; the mountains over the Passes of the Dead; and the Valley of Rivendell and the appearance of the Last Homely House. In addition, I believe I recall that he and his party were nearly struck by a small avalanche or stone-fall.

what of the "walking trees" spotted in the Shire, as mentioned ealy on in Fellowship?That isn’t a “derailment” but a legitimate criticism. You are correct that the “tree-man” in the Shire presages the Ents. Ardamir in his essay, “The Great Search (http://www.abo.fi/~jolin/tolkien/essays/the_great_search.htm),” argues that it is an Ent out of Lindon, and that seems to me as good an explanation as any. Christopher Tolkien in Return of the Shadow, “Ancient History”, asks if this might be “the first premonition of the Ents?” and then references his father’s referrals of “Tree-men” among the monsters and magical creatures encountered by Eärendil in early versions of The Voyage of Eärendil published in Lost Tales II. However, this discussion also concerns the “Entish lands” or “Ettenmoors” north of Rivendell, which had no direction connection to Treebeard at the time: the word ent is, I believe, an Anglo-Saxon word for our modern giant. Treebeard in his earliest drafts was a giant (Anglo-Saxon ent) that captured and detained Gandalf, a role later relegated to Saruman.

As for my overlooking the reference to Sam’s “tree-man” in his debate with Ted Sandyman, it was oversight on my part, and you caught me on it. Others must choose for themselves whether it is a “first premonition of the Ents,” an Entwife, an Ent continuing his “Great Search” far north of even the Old Forest, or as Ardamir capably suggests, an Ent who still resided in Lindon that had wandered into northern Eriador for some reason. (Ted Sandyman, you will remember, suggested that Hal had seen an elm or nothing; but Sandyman seems a scurrilous source of information, even as a character within the Tale.)

At the risk of sounding overly picky, there's a semantic consideration to consider here. Tolkien's stated belief is that the Ent-wives will never be found by the Ents.I respectfully disagree. When confronted with Naomi Mitchison’s query on the Entwives (Letter 144; see post #57 in this thread), he first says he believes that “the Entwives had disappeared for good, ... destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance ... when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin,” but then backs away, saying that, “Some ... may have fled east, or ... become enslaved... I hope so. I don't know.” I think his instinct was that they were all killed in Sauron’s campaign, but would like to consider that some survived; then he says, “I don't know.” In the last 16 months of his life (Letter 338; again, see post #57 in this thread), he repeats that he doesn’t know what became of the Entwives, but that “being rational creatures,” the Ents and Entwives looked forward like Men (and Dwarves, of whom they were the counterpart) to an afterlife beyond the “circles of the world.” You are certainly correct, as far as Tolkien takes us, that “the Ent-wives will never be found by the Ents ,” but I think they will never be found by the Readers, either: otherwise, as he did in his Letters with Tom Bombadil and a great many questions surrounding the characters and their actions in Silmarillion, Tolkien should at least have left the matter open: he seems to have closed the door on the Entwives, however reluctantly.

Even in the case of Queen Berúthiel, Tolkien filled out the story later on in an interview with one of his former students. He seems never to have returned to the forlorn Ents and the lost Entwives, except in regret. Again, there are – as far as I am aware – no notes on an Entwife in the Emyn Muil; and in the drafts of the rope that somehow came undone (published in War of the Ring), Tolkien’s focus seems to be on the dilemma Frodo and Sam would face in having to leave the rope behind for Gollum: because of the rope, Gollum could both find them and follow them more easily, as could any other enemy hunting them to that point.

That’s not to say that there aren’t or can’t be notes and musings and further essays on the subject as yet unpublished in the archives at Marquette and Oxford; but I have read nothing of them, nor seen any hint of them in any postings on the web by any knowledgeable researcher. (For instance, David Salo reports having read a note Tolkien’s hand indicating that the remaining Northern Dúnedain in Aragorn’s time were concentrated in The Angle of old Rhudaur, near Rivendell. See this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=345129&postcount=2) here at Barrow-downs for one citation of Salo.)

You should also be aware that I originally embarked on the little essay now in Post #57 in hopes that I would find some reference to an Entwife at the edge of the cliff in the Emyn Muil. To my disappointment, I found nothing referenced in the notes, letters, or drafts; I assume that Christopher Tolkien, Wayne Hammond, Christina Scull, David Salo, Carl Hostetter, and any number of other scholars who have looked at the material in the archives have made at least cursory glances for such references as well, but so far, either to no avail or without publishing any positive findings.

But there’s always hope, right?

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Yes, I think there is. I will now present my theory regarding the Entwives' (former) location, one that I have long hoarded.

In Letter #180, Tolkien explains that he had long been planning to have Frodo 'run into a tree-adventure', but it turned out later that it did not happen to him (but instead to Merry and Pippin):... though I knew for years that Frodo would run into a tree-adventure somewhere far down the Great River, I have no recollection of inventing Ents. I came at last to the point, and wrote the 'Treebeard' chapter without any recollection of any previous thought: just as it now is. And then I saw that, of course, it had not happened to Frodo at all.

It is true that in the published LOTR, Frodo does not experience anything that could be called a 'tree-adventure'. But what if Tolkien still left in some remnants of his old thoughts when he worked on the Frodo-Sam narrative thread?


I will now demonstrate the analogies between aspects of Rohan and Gondor (there are most likely more, but these are hopefully enough for my purposes):

Rohan – Gondor
Théoden – Denethor
Saruman – Sauron (or the Lord of the Nazgûl)
The Hornburg – Minas Tirith
Merry and Pippin – Frodo and Sam
Treebeard – Faramir


And thus the one that will be of the highest importance in this thesis:

Fangorn Forest – Ithilien


The Entwives, unlike the Ents, liked small trees, agriculture and gardening:

LR, 'Treebeard':... the Entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forests; and they saw the sloe in the thicket, and the wild apple and the cherry blossoming in spring, and the green herbs in the waterlands in summer, and the seeding grasses in the autumn fields … So the Entwives made gardens to live in.

Thus the Entwives would have liked the vegetation of Ithilien, 'the garden of Gondor':

LR, 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit':All about them [Frodo, Sam and Gollum] were small woods of resinous trees, fir and cedar and cypress, and other kinds unknown in the Shire, with wide glades among them; and everywhere there was a wealth of sweet-smelling herbs and shrubs. The long journey from Rivendell had brought them far south of their own land, but not until now in this more sheltered region had the hobbits felt the change of clime. Here Spring was already busy about them: fronds pierced moss and mould, larches were green-fingered, small flowers were opening in the turf, birds were singing. Ithilien, the garden of Gondor now desolate kept still a dishevelled dryad loveliness.
South and west it looked towards the warm lower vales of Anduin, shielded from the east by the Ephel Dúath and yet not under the mountain-shadow, protected from the north by the Emyn Muil, open to the southern airs and the moist winds from the Sea far away. Many great trees grew there, planted long ago, falling into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants; and groves and thickets there were of tamarisk and pungent terebinth, of olive and of bay; and there were junipers and myrtles; and thymes that grew in bushes, or with their woody creeping stems mantled in deep tapestries the hidden stones; sages of many kinds putting forth blue flowers, or red, or pale green; and marjorams and new-sprouting parsleys, and many herbs of forms and scents beyond the garden-lore of Sam. The grots and rocky walls were already starred with saxifrages and stonecrops. Primeroles and anemones were awake in the filbert-brakes; and asphodel and many lily-flowers nodded their half-opened heads in the grass: deep green grass beside the pools, where falling streams halted in cool hollows on their journey down to Anduin.

As is described in the above passage, the 'garden' was planted long ago and had been untended for a long time. But who had tended it? The Men of Gondor, of course. Or?

In Ithilien, Frodo and Sam also finds a small lake within a curious stone basin:

LR, 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit':They [Frodo, Sam and Gollum] followed a stream that went quickly down before them. Presently it brought them to a small clear lake in a shallow dell: it lay in the broken ruins of an ancient stone basin, the carven rim of which was almost wholly covered with mosses and rose-brambles; iris-swords stood in ranks about it. and water-lily leaves floated on its dark gently-rippling surface; but it was deep and fresh, and spilled ever softly out over a stony lip at the far end.

It seems to have been unused for a long time. What purpose did it serve?

Now, inside Wellinghall, Treebeard's home, there was also a water-filled stone basin, albeit smaller:

LR, 'Treebeard':A little stream escaped from the springs above, and leaving the main water, fell tinkling down the sheer face of the wall, pouring in silver drops, like a fine curtain in front of the arched bay. The water was gathered again into a stone basin in the floor between the trees, and thence it spilled and flowed away beside the open path, out to rejoin the Entwash in its journey through the forest.

It is clear that the water gathered in the basin is the special sort that Treebeard seems to like and that made Merry and Pippin to grow taller:

LR, 'Treebeard':For a moment Treebeard stood under the rain of the falling spring, and took a deep breath; then he laughed, and passed inside.'You [Merry and Pippin] are thirsty I [Treebeard] expect. Perhaps you are also tired. Drink this!' He went to the back of the bay, and then they saw that several tall stone jars stood there, with heavy lids. As for Treebeard, he first laved his feet in the basin beyond the arch, and then he drained his bowl at one draught, one long, slow draught.

In the drafts for the account of the Three Hunters' chase, the hunters also find a basin, which was removed from the published text:

The Treason of Isengard, 'The Riders of Rohan':...a rough path descended like a broad steep stair into the plain. At the top of the ravine Aragorn stopped. There was a shallow pool like a great basin, over the worn lip of which the water spilled: lying at the edge of the basin something glistening caught his eye. He lifted it out and held it up in the light. It looked like the new-opened leaf of a beech-tree, fair and untimely in the winter morning.

What purpose could this basin have served, and why did Tolkien remove it? The wording is quite similar to the one describing the basin that Frodo, Sam and Gollum found in Ithilien – I quote again from 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit':They [Frodo, Sam and Gollum] followed a stream that went quickly down before them. Presently it brought them to a small clear lake in a shallow dell: it lay in the broken ruins of an ancient stone basin, the carven rim of which was almost wholly covered with mosses and rose-brambles; iris-swords stood in ranks about it. and water-lily leaves floated on its dark gently-rippling surface; but it was deep and fresh, and spilled ever softly out over a stony lip at the far end.

It should perhaps also be noted (as is mentioned in the LOTR Companion, note for p. 650) that Tolkien added the account of the flora in Ithilien, probably including the passage concerning the basin, after he wrote in the following pages of Sam cooking rabbits, and (as is mentioned in The War of the Ring, 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit') that he pencilled a note Describe baytrees and spicy herbs as they march.'

Therefore it seems that Tolkien moved this basin to the Frodo-Sam narrative thread. What for? Was this initially to be Treebeard's basin (or a 'public' basin for all his Ents, or even the Entwives as well), and was later moved because Treebeard's basin had to appear much later, or was it to have some other purpose?


The research presented above has led me to suspect that the vegetation of Ithilien, described in 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit', was planted, or at least tended, by Entwives – some had survived the desctruction of their gardens south of Mirkwood and then come to Ithilien, a fairly obvious new home and garden - the wood corresponding to Fangorn forest, the Entwood. The basin was used by them for the same purpose that Treebeard used his basin. For some reason they later disappeared, maybe finally eradicated by Sauron, or had fled once again somewhere else.

It should also be noted though, that Frodo, Sam and Gollum both drank and bathed in the pool within the basin they found in Ithilien:

LR, 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit':[... it [the lake] was deep and fresh, and spilled ever softly out over a stony lip at the far end.
Here they washed themselves and drank their fill at the in-falling freshet.

A growth in stature in neither Frodo, Sam or Gollum is ever mentioned afterwards. This was apparently 'normal' water, or at least it did not affect the travellers' height – after all, it was probably only water from the Entwash that was special:

LR, 'Flotsam and Jetsam':Tired?" he [Treebeard] said, "tired? Well no, not tired, but stiff. I need a good draught of Entwash.

[CSteefel]

In Lorien, Tolkien specifically mentions that the Elves had to untie the ropes from the trees and then draw them in. Tolkien also mentions more than once that Sam was very skilled with ropes and knots. And then there is the rope incident. What is the point of it?! Did Tolkien have it happen just to contradict himself? No, obviously not. I don't think Tolkien would contradict the logic that his own words created if there wasn't a point to it.

But isn't that the point of magic--it isn't predictable, and it arises to some extent based on the need of the person wielding it. The elves had no need of these magic (i.e., fundamentally unpredictable) characteristics of the rope, since they had Elves on both side of the river. The hobbits, in contrast, had no way to get down and to keep their rope at the same time, so this is where the magic comes in. Magic in Tolkien is not like it is in Harry Potter, where it is taken to the point of a classroom lesson where such and such a spell will always produce a predictable result when given in the right way. I agree with those above who mentioned the idea that magic is linked in some mysterious way to divine Providence or intervention. It is fundamentally unpredictable and arises chiefly at need...

What is more, there are specific allusions to the magical qualities of the rope, including its luminescence in the low light, and its ability to dissipate the blindness of Frodo associated apparently with the appearance of the Black Riders in the sky. So there are very specific allusions here to its magical powers...

[The Saucepan Man]

I love a good mystery, me.

I am afraid, phantom, that I do not find your proposition convincing in the least. In a fantasy world like Middle-earth, I have no difficulty in believing that an Elven rope could “magically” untie itself if truly willed to do so by its bearer. Moreover, there is nothing in the passage that you reference which could specifically relate to Entwives, save for the presence of gnarled trees. And Middle-earth is hardly devoid of trees, gnarled or otherwise.

However, three things in particular struck me when I read the long passage from Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit quoted by Ardamir:

“… larches were green-fingered …”: The trees were green-fingered with foliage, but the descriptive term is an anthropomorphic one – trees with fingers. Further, “green-fingered” is a term also used to denote particular flair in the field of gardening. The Entwives, of course, were gardeners.

“… the garden of Gondor …”: While a descriptive term for a place of natural beauty (like Kent – the garden of England), a garden is an ordered, rather than a wild, place of nature – more suitable for an Entwife than an Ent. Again, the gardening link.

“…dishevelled dryad loveliness …”: Dryads are female tree spirits in Greek mythology.

This got me to thinking whether this might indeed be the passage that Teleporno was referring to (whether or not it was in fact intended by Tolkien to allude to the Entwives). Perhaps he concluded that the green-fingered larches were the Entwives, although the fact that the trees had fallen “into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants” suggests to me that, if Entwives were here in Ithilien, they had long since left (or fallen into irreversible slumber) by the time that Frodo and Sam arrived. Teleporno, on the other hand, declared:

The Entwives are alive and living in The Lord of the Rings but you must look closely to find and decipher the riddle.In any event, if this is the passage that he was referring to, he must also have perceived this “in-joke” that he mentions somewhere within it. What could that be? I have never quite understood what Teleporno means when he refers to this matter. He talks of “suffragists”, but the main cause of suffragists and suffragettes (women’s right to vote) had long since been won in England by the time Tolkien wrote this passage. Does he perhaps mean feminists in the wider sense? Although that is not necessarily the same thing as denoted by his other phrase “middle-class British women who don't tolerate the foolish behavior of men”.

Anyway, my random thoughts led me along the following lines of research (which represent pure speculation and are, admittedly, highly tenuous at times, although there may be something here that someone could pick up and run with).

A group which Tolkien might have relished lampooning and which was semi-contemporaneous with the date at which he would have written this passage was the Bloomsbury Set of English "bohemian" artists and scholars. Although by no means exclusively female, it did include many with feminist sympathies, Virginia Woolf, for example. It also advocated open marriages - and marriages between the Ents and the Entwives could certainly be described as being very open ;) (although the phrase, in its commonly-used sense, is certainly not applicable).

Virginia Woolf was a prominent advocate of female independence (from men), famously writing in A Room of One's Own that "a woman must have money and a room of her own if she is to write fiction".

Another member of the Bloomsbury Set (albeit on the fringes), and someone closely associated with Virginia Woolf, was Vita Sackville-West. (It has been suggested, I believe, that her name may in part have been the derivation of the Hobbit surname, Sackville-Baggins). Vita Sackville-West (1892 -1962) was an English poet, novelist and gardener. She was born at Knole House in Kent and is renowned for helping to create her own gardens at Sissinghurst Castle, Kent. Again, a gardening link and, as Ithilien is the garden of Gondor, Kent is the garden of England.

Sissinghurst Castle Garden is designed as a series of "rooms", each with a different character of colour and/or theme, the walls being high clipped hedges and many pink brick walls. I’m getting highly tenuous now, but this is slightly reminiscent of the scene described in the passage quoted by Ardamir, particularly the “grots and rock walls”.

Finally, Teleporno suggested that we “keep an eye on the clustering of certain types of words”. Possibly he meant the preponderance of trees and shrubs identified in this passage: “fir and cedar and cypress”, “larches”, “tamarisk”, “terebinth”, “olive”, “bay”, “juniper”, “myrtle”, “thyme”, “sage”, “marjoram”, “parsley”, “saxifrage”, “stonecrop”, “primerole”, “anemone”, “filbert”, “asphodel” and “lily”.

I can’t think of anything that links all of these plants, although many are conifers and/or evergreens and most are native to the Mediterranean region (although that is hardly surprising in a description of a region with the climate of Ithilien). Also, most have medicinal and/or culinary uses (again, hardly surprising given the name of the chapter in which the passage features).

One thing which may be of relevance: In Greek mythology, myrtle was considered to be sacred to Aphrodite. The tradition of brides (ie those who were to become wives) wearing a crown of myrtle on their wedding day was common in ancient Greece.

As I said, all highly speculative and at times rather tenuous. However, these musings have led me to believe that this is most likely the passage that Teleporno was referring to. I do rather agree with Child that, whatever he may have thought that he was on to, he was wrong, and that Tolkien did not deliberately place a subtle reference to the Entwives here.

But you never know … ;)

[Bêthberry]

All these dangling ropes and stumps are becoming entirely too Freudian for me.

They seem to speak more of the absence of the entwives, the castrated, er, frustrated, hopes of the Ents, rather than the very enjoyable presence of the entwives, who certainly, one would assume, would not inspire things to dangle.

:p

[Boromir88]

SpM, amazing stuff. The best explanation of an 'inside-joke' with the finding of the Entwives has been a connection between of course none other than C.S. Lewis. It seems to be a rather far-fetched one, but yet has been the best possible explanation I've come acrossed...

In Carpenter's biography, in Chapter 4 'Oxford' he talks about a play Tolkien wrote 'The Bloodhound, the Chef, and the Suffragette.' Which the connection is that it seems rather similar to Lewis' The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe (written almost 40 years later). Tolkien also played the leading role in the play...Professor Quilter (The bloodhound who's alias was Detective Sexton Q. Blake-Holmes). And he searched for the lost hieress Gwendoline Goodchild.

You, and others, have also mentioned the reference to 'dryads.' In Lewis' The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe, the woods are filled with dryads. Perhaps that's the connection between TTT and Lewis' book, leading back to the play Tolkien wrote...seems rather weak. That's the best explanation I've come across, and it definitely seems a little far-fetched.

[The Saucepan Man]

SpM, amazing stuff.Amazing what a trawl of wikipedia can turn up.

What? You didn't think that I knew all that stuff did you? ;)

The dryad reference and the gardening analogies/symbolism are the most Entwifish references that I have seen in the various passages quoted so far. Lewis' use of dryads in his writings did also occur to me. In addition, there is a possible connection with Bêthberry's mum ( ;) ), since some speculate that she was a water nymph.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

The Saucepan Man and Boromir88 have given more interesting things to ponder. I would like to point out that my theory is separate from Teleporno's 'joke' (the 'joke' might of course be hidden in the passages I have used), but I do not think it is less interesting.


I forgot a few important points concerning my theory.

An oft-ignored fact is that Treebeard states that at the end of the Second Age, some people said that they had seen the Entwives going west, some said east, and others south from the Brown Lands after Sauron burned their gardens:

LR, ‘Treebeard’: … we [Ents] asked all folk that we met which way the Entwives had gone. Some said they had never seen them; and some said that they had seen them walking away west, and some said east, and others south.

This could provide valuable clues as to where the Entwives might be post-Brown Lands. Now, where could 'south' more specifically be?


The Saucepan Man mentioned the well known 'dryad loveliness' reference, and 'larches were green-fingered' in the description of the flora of Ithilien – this may also hint at the work of Entwives. The Ents and the Entwives slowly took the likeness of the trees they tended, and vice versa:

LR, ‘Treebeard’: We are tree-herds, we old Ents. … Sheep get like shepherd, and shepherds like sheep, it is said; but slowly, and neither have long in the world. It is quicker and closer with trees and Ents …

We also have this passage in Letter #144:They [the Entwives] survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits).

Most people believe that this passage means that the Entwives' art of agriculture was transmitted to Men, but the Entwives themselves did not survive. However, the passage also fits rather well if one assumes that there were surviving Entwives in Ithilien practising agriculture, since Ithilien belonged to Gondor, a realm of Men.


It should also be mentioned that Treebeard describes the Ents as drinking of mountain-streams (the source of the Entwash is in the mountains):

LR, 'Treebeard':...the Ents loved the great trees; and the wild woods, and the slopes of the high hills; and they drank of the mountain-streams ...

But the Entwives are not described as drinking of any streams. Perhaps it was only specific to the Ents to gather water in basins, not the Entwives? But I think it would be logical if the Entwives also had a need of great amounts of water.


Also, before Frodo, Sam and Gollum find the basin in Ithilien, they also encounter other handiworks:

LR, 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit':The road had been made in a long lost time: and for perhaps thirty miles below the Morannon it had been newly repaired, but as it went south the wild encroached upon it. The handiwork of Men of old could still be seen in its straight sure flight and level course: now and again it cut its way through hillside slopes, or leaped over a stream upon a wide shapely arch of enduring masonry; but at last all signs of stonework faded, save for a broken pillar here and there, peering out of bushes at the side, or old paving-stones still lurking amid weeds and moss. Heather and trees and bracken scrambled down and overhung the banks, or sprawled out over the surface. It dwindled at last to a country cart-road little used; but it did not wind: it held on its own sure course and guided them by the swiftest way.

The road, the bridges, the pillars and the paving-stones – all were most likely the work of the Men of Gondor. Thus the basin could be that as well, especially since it is mentioned just a few paragraphs later, and maybe the flora was also planted and tended by the Men of Gondor. One should remember though, that

Letter #247:The Ents thus had mastery over stone.

And there is a vague connection between the Ents and ancient, abandoned stoneworks – Tolkien got inspiration for them from giants erecting buildings in the Old English poem The Wanderer:

Letter #163:They [the Ents] owe their name to the eald enta geweorc of Anglo-Saxon, and their connexion with stone [from the Old English poem The Wanderer, line 87: 'eald enta geweorc idlu stodon' = 'the old creations of giants (i.e. ancient buildings erected by a former race) stood desolate'].

However, I am wondering if the Númenóreans also come in here – they could perhaps also be termed 'giants' as they were the Men of the greatest stature, and they (or at least the Men of Gondor) are associated with stonework – Gondor even has the sense 'Stone-land' sc. 'Stone (-using people's) land' [Letter #324].

[Alcuin]

I have often wondered if this is what became not of the Entwives, but of some of their offspring, warped by Sauron. RotK, “Appendix F”, “Of Other Races”...at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dûr.

In Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”, Christopher Tolkien covers a number of his father’s writings on the origins of the Orcs which are not pertinent here, except that while Sauron might not have conceived the idea of Orcs, he was instrumental in their development, or at least in their breeding, particularly while Morgoth was imprisoned in Mandos: Sauron reconstructed Angband and saw to the proliferation of the Orcs. I am uncertain if Tolkien’s musing on trolls, “It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were ‘tinkered’ with by Melkor,” (op. cit., “VIII”) was what Tolkien thought about the matter for most of his post-LotR life, but it is likely that Sauron had a hand in whatever his master was doing in this matter as well.

The upshot: while Sauron might not be the “creator” (or more accurately, “prime corruptor”) of Orcs and Trolls, I think it was Tolkien’s consistent idea that he was involved in their primeval corruption. I don’t think it would be out of character for him to seek to corrupt the Entwives to his own nefarious purposes; however, I am far from certain that Prof. Tolkien would agree that they could be corrupted in this way. Besides, the Ents could “tear [up stone] like bread-crust” and “crumple … iron like thin tin.” (Two Towers, “Flotsam and Jetsam”) How would you keep them imprisoned, especially for the whole of the Third Age?

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

I honestly believe that the Entwives do not exist. Nor did Tolkien desire them to exist. We always thought of Treebeard as a friendly, humourous character but such thoughts are not in line with the bittersweet ending of LOTR. In order to flesh out his creation Tolkien added a tinge of tragedy to the tale. And in doing so further made us sympathise with a character other (lesser) writers would dismiss as "childish".

[Aaron]

Why do you have to be so logical about it? Would it be so hard to grab your copy of LOTR and try to find them? They were not just a means of making the Ents look good. Tolkien was a great writer and you can be sure that if he put them in there then they clearly serve some kind of purpose.

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Pfft, it's better to be logical about these things rather than delude yourself. Tolkien had a great mind but he had to make "whole" characters. Without the Entwives this was not possible. Stop looking for clues like some bloody socialist. Go do something better with your time. I dunno, rescue a cat from a tree, stab a Roman dictator-for-life on March 15, write a threatening letter to a politician. The world is full of beauty! Stop wasting that beauty by searching for things that aren't real!

[the phantom]

Okay, time to respond to you silly unbelievers.
And since we're dealing with such a show off, don't you think that if the ropes could be untied magically he would've done so?
I am not that sure about this. Something tells me that the Elves would not have been so willing to show their magic explicitly.
Why? Elves don't consider their "magic" to be magic, do they? The things that we would call "magical" about them are simply natural abilities, the way walking and talking are for us.

And as I've already pointed out, Haldir quite obviously had no qualms about displaying his "magic" (the stunt on the rope).

If Lorien ropes could untie themselves in response to mental commands, Haldir would've done it.

That's the way it is. End of story.
So there’s nothing in the Letters, nothing in the drafts, and nothing in the notes about the stump being an Entwife; in fact, Tolkien says on at least two separate occasions that he does not believe they will ever be found.
By us, or the Ents? There's a significant difference.

(Ah, I see that Sardy has also raised this point.)

You can claim that Tolkien shut the door on the matter, but by no means did he slam it shut and lock it.
There was no need for the rope to be saved.
They did have use of the rope later on, actually almost immediately afterwards - they tied Gollum with it.
Yeah, for what- about five seconds? Wow, that rope sure came in handy.
The dangling rope was a means not only for Gollum to more easily follow them, but for him and any other pursuit – orcs or Nazgûl – to determine that the trail was hot.
Gollum found them anyway, without help from the rope. So don't name Gollum as a convincing reason.

As far as the off chance that an orc or Nazgul would find one single little rope in the middle of a huge wilderness, what's the big deal? What- do you think the Nazgul would think "Oh no! An elven rope! The One Ring must be close!" Obviously not. At the most, the Nazgul would think "Hmm... an elven rope. I wonder if some elf is trying to spy out our movements." Plus there would be no way to tell exactly how long the rope had been there.

Leaving the rope there on the cliff would most likely result in zero penalty for Sam and Frodo. So why not leave it?
I agree with those above who mentioned the idea that magic is linked in some mysterious way to divine Providence or intervention. It is fundamentally unpredictable and arises chiefly at need...
The rope was a waste of divine intervention, if you ask me. There was no "need".
I honestly believe that the Entwives do not exist.
Oh, and next you'll be telling us that you don't believe that Elves and Dwarves exist either, and that Tolkien just made all of this stuff up, and that his books should be placed in the Fantasy/Sci-Fi section.
I am afraid, phantom, that I do not find your proposition convincing in the least. In a fantasy world like Middle-earth, I have no difficulty in believing that an Elven rope could “magically” untie itself if truly willed to do so by its bearer.
Yeah, and you're also the guy who believes he was just as good a reader when he was five years old as he is now. :p

Anyway, I'm sorry everyone, but you have not convinced me. And that, of course, makes you wrong.

Until JRRT himself posts on this thread and tells me I'm otherwise, I have found the Entwives.

Deal with it lads.
rescue a cat from a tree
That hardly sounds like a worthy and beneficial venture.

Tossing a cat up into a tree however......

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Why? Elves don't consider their "magic" to be magic, do they? The things that we would call "magical" about them are simply natural abilities, the way walking and talking are for us.

And as I've already pointed out, Haldir quite obviously had no qualms about displaying his "magic" (the stunt on the rope).

If Lorien ropes could untie themselves in response to mental commands, Haldir would've done it.

That's the way it is. End of story.
My good phantom, I am sure that you are well read in fantasy and fairytales and surely you must have come across magical items that only show their full potential when really needed to. . .

What I am saying is that it is intirely possible that the show off elves could not just make the rope untie it self. . . it is actually often the standard that magic is not used for everyday needs.

[Vala Ulmo]

In light of this absurd thread, I thought I would post so new and exciting information regarding the Entwives. I have found irrefutable evidence that the Entwives do not exist! That’s 100% correct, to find out exactly where in the LotR this is stated, you need to consider what we know from the FotR and something rather interesting from the TTT. Keep in mind that I have no inclination of revealing any of this information out of fear of being wrong but I am sticking by my guns. So with my clues, happy hunting…







I am new to Tolkien forums and new to Barrowdowns but it’s post like “I found the entwives” that dishonor the community. What a waste.

[The Might]

Umm...let's be serious, if such things had been so obvious as many here claim, then this would have been mentioned in many net articles on Entwives.
But it isn't, because it isn't obvious at all.
It might seem obvious to some, but perhaps not to Tolkien.
All in all, I think the quotes from the Letters pretty much sum it all up.

[davem]

but it’s post like “I found the entwives” that dishonor the community.

Thank goodness - I thought it was me......

[the phantom]

I am new to Tolkien forums and new to Barrowdowns but it’s post like “I found the entwives” that dishonor the community.
Considering your self proclaimed lack of Tolkien/Barrow-Downs forum experience, what precisely makes you think that you are in any way qualified to state what honors or dishonors this community? Seeing such a statement in someone's first post ever is one of the most absurd things I've witnessed in a long while.

It is obvious that you do not understand how we are treating this topic- specifically when we are being over the top for entertainment purposes.

Here's a link to the novices and newcomers forum (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10). Why don't you hop over there and start a thread about Balrog wings or something.

[the phantom]

My good phantom, I am sure that you are well read in fantasy and fairytales and surely you must have come across magical items that only show their full potential when really needed to. . .
But the rope didn't need to! One of my primary arguments is that the situation did not call for divine intervention or unexplained magic.
it is actually often the standard that magic is not used for everyday needs
But "magic" isn't "magic" to the Elves. Walking on snow isn't "magic" to them. Their cloaks aren't "magic" either. They are as natural to elves as computers are to us. Computers aren't magic, though they would likely be called "magic" by individuals from early times.

If Elves made ropes that could come untied when commanded, it would not be "magic" to them- it would just be rope, and Haldir would be just as willing to "magically" untie rope as he was to "magically" run across rope.
if such things had been so obvious as many here claim, then this would have been mentioned in many net articles on Entwives
Well maybe we're just a lot smarter than the people writing those "many net articles on Entwives". Anyway, are you saying that it is impossible to have a somewhat original idea that is correct?

If you had lived in the early 1900s, I suppose you would've been saying, "If that crap that Einstein is talking about was really true, then many other physicists would be saying it already."

;)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

But "magic" isn't "magic" to the Elves. Walking on snow isn't "magic" to them. Their cloaks aren't "magic" either. They are as natural to elves as computers are to us. Computers aren't magic, though they would likely be called "magic" by individuals from early times.

If Elves made ropes that could come untied when commanded, it would not be "magic" to them- it would just be rope, and Haldir would be just as willing to "magically" untie rope as he was to "magically" run across rope.
Well, that is how you picture it, I do not think it has ever been said that this was infact the elves relation to magic. I have not read the HoME or any letters (appart from the christmas ones) yet, so I could be wrong.

Youe argument is that there is no such thing as magic in LotR or at least that is the consequenses. If we were talking about "magic" or "whichcraft" in our world then I would gladly agree with you, but to draw a paralel between this world and ME seems wrong to me. It seems to go against the spirit of the books.

Is the mirror of Galadriel not magic either? or is it just like watching the telly?

But the rope didn't need to! One of my primary arguments is that the situation did not call for divine intervention or unexplained magic.
You are right in saying that it did not absolutely need to in order for the quest to succede, but no one said that there was a specific set of rules that had to be met for the rope to drop. It is magic! We are not supposed to have a check list. . .

They are being followed (check)
It would be usefull if the rope chose drop now (check)
Sertain doom if rope does not drop

oh darn the last one was not pressent therefor it cannot be magic!

[Raynor]

But "magic" isn't "magic" to the Elves.I disagree. Legolas sets himself apart from even Aragorn and Boromir in term of his ability - he does not consider it normal or ubiquitous.
The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf or over snow-an ElfThe leader of the elves also notes the peculiarity of the elven cloacks:
And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the trees. to a great effect:
In pairs they galloped by, and though every now and then one rose in his stirrups and gazed ahead and to either side, they appeared not to perceive the three strangers sitting silently and watching them. The host had almost passed when suddenly Aragorn stood up, and called in a loud voice
...
- And strange too is your raiment. Have you sprung out of the grass? How did you escape our sight?What Galadriel and Tolkien dislike is the confusion of Men between magic used by elves and magic used by the enemy, which is an altogether different thing from saying that they discard the notion of magic itself:
I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word; though Galadriel and others show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that the thought about it is not altogether casual.
...
The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life'.

[the phantom]

Blah blah magic blah blah I disagree blah blah...
Nope. Wrong.

[the phantom]

Okay, okay... here's a real response to the points you have raised.
You are right in saying that it did not absolutely need to in order for the quest to succede, but no one said that there was a specific set of rules that had to be met for the rope to drop. It is magic! We are not supposed to have a check list.

They are being followed (check)
It would be usefull if the rope chose drop now (check)
Sertain doom if rope does not drop

oh darn the last one was not pressent therefor it cannot be magic!
My whole point about need was in response to the divine intervention argument for "magic". There is a difference between the two.

Example-
An elf runs over snow = normal "magic"
In a desperate situation an elf runs over water = not normal "magic" (must be divine intervention)

My argument is that the rope is either made to come untied upon command or it isn't. If it was not made that way (if it coming untied was not normal) then there was some sort of divine intervention involved. But obviously the situation did not call for divine intervention.

Therefore we must assume that the rope was designed to come untied, or that someone/something untied it. I have already given many reasons as to why I do not believe it was designed to come untied, and so the inescapable conclusion is that the rope was physically untied.
But "magic" isn't "magic" to the Elves.
I disagree. Legolas sets himself apart from even Aragorn and Boromir in term of his ability - he does not consider it normal or ubiquitous.
Aragorn and Boromir are not Elves! So of course it is not normal for them. It is normal for an Elf however. It is as normal to an Elf as walking is to a man. Therefore it is not some form of unusual or unpredictable "magic". It is simply a natural ability.

Just like making "magic" cloaks. It is simply an enhanced ability naturally possessed and developed by some Elves. And logically, rope making would be the same.

I don't see how any of the other quotes you gave disproves my view of magic. As a matter of fact, they support it.
a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes
You see? For a "specific" purpose! In other words, any "magic" that goes on is something that was specifically designed to happen. A rope doesn't untie itself because it is "magic"- it unties itself because it was purposefully and specifically designed to! Every time! The "magic" is consistent and precise- not enigmatic or unexplainable.

Anyway, there you go. The explanation has been given.

I think you guys just need to accept the fact that I found the Entwives.

;)

[Raynor]

My whole point about need was in response to the divine intervention argument for "magic".But need has a subjective aspect, whether in relation to divinity or to personal use of magic. One may experience a situation where his emotional status would make him consider certain actions as very necessary, even if they may not be so 'objectively'; and this we should consider when we refer to Frodo and Sam, after a hard journey, experiencing loss, betrayal, severance from the others, the burden of the quest, almost certainty of death at the end, etc. Even if we don't have an instance of magic, divine intervention may still bring about a good boost of morale, through an act of providence that may take away some of the fears and stress, and nurture hope and strength.
It is normal for an Elf however. I disagree that all instances of magic are normal for all elves. Even for Feanor, some of his magical (subcreative) works are unique, he cannot do them again; and most of what he created generates awe, esspecially in regards to the silmarils - not only among the elves, but among the maiar and the valar too, whose magical/subcreative abilities far surpass those of the elves. Even the valar experience the mistery of magic as subcreation: Yavanna cannot make the trees again.

[the phantom]

It is normal for an Elf however. *regarding running over snow*
I disagree that all instances of magic are normal for all elves.
First- it's NOT magic. Substitute "amazing natural skills" for "magic" in that sentence.

Okay, now that we've fixed that- you are correct if you are defining "normal" as "something they themselves could do". BUT something is not "magic" just because you can't do it.

I can't bowl a perfect 300 game. That does not mean that bowling a 300 game is magical, or that the person who did it was using any sort of magic. The ability to bowl a perfect game, while not common, is normal, in the sense that it is a feat that can be achieved naturally by a human being who fully develops a strong natural gift.

I think this explains your point about Feanor and his "magical" works. Sure, Feanor's skill was far beyond everyone else, but it was natural. His works were not beyond someone possessing his level of skill and focus and his amount of learning. So his works, though amazing, were in fact normal for someone of his stature.

As far as your point about creating things that can never be duplicated (Silmarils, the two trees), the sports analogy works well for that too. There are some feats in the career of a baseball/basketball/football athlete that can logically never be equaled. A perfect storm can hit where he is at the top of his game, going up against opponents he knows well, playing in stadiums that favor his style, and to top it off he has an amazing run of great luck.

No matter what your hobby or profession is, there is going to be one moment, one day, or one accomplishment that will be your best- something you will never equal. One place and time where every bit of your natural skill and your circumstances will hit full stride.

It's not "magic". It's perfectly normal. It's life.

Well, there you go. I hope I worded that well enough for you to see where I'm coming from.

As far as your take on divine intervention, honestly- divine intervention is used merely to create a feel-good moment? I don't buy it. Sam and Frodo showed themselves capable of dealing with a heck of a lot more than a lost rope. I seriously doubt it would cause them to have an emotional breakdown.

[Raynor]

Substitute "amazing natural skills" for "magic" in that sentence.Well, I think we need to define magic for our discussion. I would call it abilities to interact with the world that go beyond the purely phisical possibilities of the body; these abilities come from the power of the spirit, first and foremost. I believe it is safe to presume that the elves were capable to make this difference for themselves.
divine intervention is used merely to create a feel-good moment? IIt wasn't purely symbolic, it also had a practical aspect, and even the emotional effect may not be that insignificant; after all, belief in the interventions of the 'invisible hand' is what drove the quest from the start. Since you haven't addressed the other part of that paragraph, I presume you agree that need can be perceived differently, according to circumstances, and if ability to interact with magical objects is positively influenced by the degree of need that is felt, then we can't discard magic-interaction explanation.

[the phantom]

Well, I think we need to define magic for our discussion.
No, no, no- let's keep this issue muddy. :p
I would call it abilities to interact with the world that go beyond the purely phisical possibilities of the body
But how is physical power to influence and interact with matter any more natural (less magical) than spiritual/mental power to influence and interact with matter? Inherent natural power is inherent natural power, no matter if it is physical or not.

If we meet a race of aliens from Neptune that cannot make audible sounds but communicate telepathically, would you honestly call what they do "magic"? No. It would just be different and amazing. Also, our ability to communicate orally would be just as different and amazing from their point of view, so if what they do is indeed "magic" then our ability to speak is equally magical to them.
I presume you agree that need can be perceived differently, according to circumstances, and if ability to interact with magical objects is positively influenced by the degree of need that is felt, then we can't discard magic-interaction explanation.
So, you are saying that the rope may have been specifically designed to react physically to the wielder on a sensitive emotional basis? That the rope could sense the amount of urgency in the mind of the person touching it and would be activated if the urgency exceeded a certain threshold?

That's a fine theory. It fits nicely with my view of "magic"- that it is specific and precise. And it could also explain the inconsistency with Haldir in Lothlorien untying the rope.

You can certainly choose to believe that if you wish. I can't think of anything to definitively refute it. But my instinct tells me that Elves wouldn't design a rope like that.

Can you imagine anyone building a microwave that would only work for starving people, who were desperately hungry? It's not efficient. If you're going to make something that works, wouldn't it make logical sense to allow it to work all the time?

Just like the boats from Lothlorien. They weren't just light when they needed to be carried. The cloaks weren't camouflage only when enemy eyes were upon them. Now, items more unique and special, like Galadriel's vial of light, I can see being more complex and containing emotional and vocal triggers. But rope- I have difficulty believing it.

[The Saucepan Man]

Phantom, central to your theory is the proposition that Haldir would not have been able to resist showing off Elven magic - technology - whatever you want to call it, to the Fellowship on the journey through Lothlorien.

Even were it not for the fact that he is a member of a notoriously secretive Elven society whose laws would not even allow those travelling through their realm know the route to its capital, that is pure speculation.

Seems like your on pretty shaky ground to me.

Oh and ...

Yeah, and you're also the guy who believes he was just as good a reader when he was five years old as he is now.Actually, my position was that my experience of LotR was just as valuable, albeit different, when I first read it (aged eleven) as when I read it now. Indeed, perhaps more so for being all the more magical and enchanting.

Other than that, I note that you failed to address my original points:

I am afraid, phantom, that I do not find your proposition convincing in the least. In a fantasy world like Middle-earth, I have no difficulty in believing that an Elven rope could “magically” untie itself if truly willed to do so by its bearer. Moreover, there is nothing in the passage that you reference which could specifically relate to Entwives, save for the presence of gnarled trees. And Middle-earth is hardly devoid of trees, gnarled or otherwise. :p

[the phantom]

Phantom, central to your theory is the proposition that Haldir would not have been able to resist showing off Elven magic - technology - whatever you want to call it, to the Fellowship on the journey through Lothlorien.
Yep. I've established that Haldir is an unnecessary show off. Surely you'll concede that point.

I've also established that "magic" items are simply made the way they are and that they are used as they exist. In other words, you won't hear Celeborn say "Outsiders are coming! Quickly, flip the magic switches on your cloaks so their magic stops working!"

It's not like that. The Elves make objects that have special properties, and that's the way they are, and the Elves use them as they are. If their ropes come untied without effort, that's what they do. Would that be a closely guarded secret?

And is Haldir even an Elf who guards secrets closely? Hmmm?

Think about it. He completely reveals to the Fellowship the way in which the Elves of Lothlorien cross rivers, doesn't he? If Pippin, for instance, was in league with Dol Guldur, he could report "There are no bridges anywhere across the streams and rivers of Lothlorien. The Elves use ropes to cross." Haldir also let the hobbits up into their flet, and they revealed to the Fellowship that they had led the Orcs astray with fake voices.

So let's not pretend that Haldir and company were obsessively secretive.
In a fantasy world like Middle-earth, I have no difficulty in believing that an Elven rope could “magically” untie itself if truly willed to do so by its bearer.
Middle-Earth is not a silly anything-goes fake world. There are rules. Tolkien tried to explain most things. He wrote about the principles and rules regarding incarnation, and necromancy, and other things. If any old magic thing could just happen, Middle-Earth would be a stupid place. Tolkien for the most part tried to avoid things like Tom Bombadil. Aragorn cannot jump off a mountain and fly by flapping his arms and willing himself to do it. He is governed by the same laws of nature that are in our world.

You cannot say that things can magically happen outside of rules and explanations just because it is a work of fantasy. That is an insult to the level of realism that Prof Tolkien worked so hard to create.

(of course, I'm not saying you were trying to insult JRRT)

[The Saucepan Man]

Yep. I've established that Haldir is an unnecessary show off. Surely you'll concede that point.Nope. Not unless you provide some convincing evidence that he was prepared to reveal the workings of Elven magic (technology etc) to a group of virtual strangers, as opposed to simply showing them how they crossed rivers and ambushed Orcs (things that any Tom, Dick or Pippin could work out, and indeed do, if they put their mind to it).

I've also established that "magic" items are simply made the way they are and that they are used as they exist. In other words, you won't hear Celeborn say "Outsiders are coming! Quickly, flip the magic switches on your cloaks so their magic stops working!"On the other hand, you won't catch members of the Fellowship continually bumping into each other simply because they are wearing Elven cloaks.

If Pippin, for instance, was in league with Dol Guldur, he could report "There are no bridges anywhere across the streams and rivers of Lothlorien. The Elves use ropes to cross.Which would be handy to them, as otherwise they would be completely stumped. After all, it's not like they could chop down a tree to cross the river or anything, is it?

You cannot say that things can magically happen outside of rules and explanations just because it is a work of fantasy.Agreed. But the nature and function of the Elven rope is not in the least inconsistent with other aspects of Elven magic (technology etc) or with other aspects of Middle-earth (fire-breathing dragons, rings of invisibility, glowing (and talking) swords etc).

Still waiting for an answer to this:

Moreover, there is nothing in the passage that you reference which could specifically relate to Entwives, save for the presence of gnarled trees. And Middle-earth is hardly devoid of trees, gnarled or otherwise.

[Boromir88]

Yep. I've established that Haldir is an unnecessary show off.
I would disagree, I think Haldir is nothin' but a sentinel that liked to break the laws
'....I do not doubt you,' said Haldir. 'Yet this is our law. I am not the master of the law, and cannot set it aside. I have done much in letting you set foot over Celebrant.'
By Haldir's own admission he's stretched his authority a bit too far, so all the things that he did for the Fellowship, he probably shouldn't have...hmph he should be honourably discharged. :p

Phantom, of course there are rules within Middle-earth, I mean Gandalf can't storm into Mordor and blow up Barad-dur with a fireball out of his...erm...hand. But, just because there are limitations to the 'magic' in Middle-earth doesn't mean everything from Middle-earth is exactly how it is in our 'real world.'

Let's take the Old Forest for example...Old Man Willow was a tree:
"...and in it there lived yet, aging no quicker than the hills, the fathers of the fathers of trees, remembering times when they were lords. The countless years had filled them with pride and rooted wisdom, and with malice. But none were more dangerous than the Great Willow: his heart was rotten, but his strength was green; and he was cunning, and a master of winds, and his song and thought ran through the woods on both sides of the river."
Old Man Willow (in Middle-earth) was simply a tree, but he certainly doesn't behave like the trees we have in reality. And as Tolkien points out in Letter 212, trees in his world can 'go bad.':
The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable. Trees may "go bad" as in the Old Forest...
If anyone in the 'real world' came and told me an evil tree tried to eat them I would put that person on some heavy medication.

Yes, there are limitations to 'magic' in The Lord of the Rings...but that doesn't change the fact that (as SpM points out) The Lord of the Rings is in the fantasy genre and not everything from the real world behaves as it does in Tolkien's story. So, we end up with ropes that can untie themselves, nasty trees that try to eat hobbits, gynormous spiders...and so on.

[the phantom]

In the secret Barrow-Downs headquarters, the BDs admin/mod team have their weekly meeting.

BW: All right, I think that's all of the old business taken care of. Anyone have any new business?
Mithadan: Well, there is the Entwives thread.
Underhill: What about it? It's an old thread, and a pretty harmless topic.
Mithadan: TP's been on there lately. He's insisting that an Entwife untied Sam's rope in the Emyn Muil.
*laughter*
Mithadan: No, I'm afraid it's no laughing matter. He seems to be dead serious about it.
BW: Hmm... well, I suppose we ought to do something. Letting such an absurd idea stand on our board doesn't reflect well on us.
Esty: Sure, but what can we do? If he is indeed taking the issue seriously, we can't warn him for chatting or silliness. And we certainly can't turn into the thought police and punish him for holding a unique opinion.
Morm: That settles it, then. We've got to take his idea on directly- debate with him.
Underhill: I don't know about that. Whoever debates him might be looked down upon for even bothering to argue with him, and sinking to his level of ridiculousness.
SPM: I'll do it!
*all eyes turn to SPM*
BW: Are you sure, SPM?
SPM: Yes, of course. I'd never miss a chance to spar with TP. Anyway, my reputation around here is so high that I don't have to worry about looking bad every once and a while.
BW: All right, then it's settled. SPM is assigned to shut down the Entwife thread.
*pounds gavel*

:smokin:

You haven't shut me down just yet, SPM. I've only been busy. Within the day I will answer your questions- and yours, Boro. Be prepared. I will convert you yet.

[the phantom]

Yep. I've established that Haldir is an unnecessary show off. Surely you'll concede that point.
Nope. Not unless you provide some convincing evidence that he was prepared to reveal the workings of Elven magic (technology etc) to a group of virtual strangers, as opposed to simply showing them how they crossed rivers
The way they crossed rivers was every bit as "magic" as their cloaks and boats and televisions. If he didn't care about one, why would he care about the other? What could be gained from hiding the secret of Elven rope from the Fellowship anyway?

Also, by the time they left Lothlorien they were not strangers, but were given much Elvish technology. Each piece of tech was explained as well. They found out about the lembas. They were taught to handle the boats. They were told about the virtues of their cloaks. Why weren't they told about THE ROPE?! It makes no sense!! If the rope had special properties as important as auto-untie then they would have been informed.

No, no, no... there is no argument to that. Don't try it.

Seriously. I'm warning you, SPM.
Still waiting for an answer to this:
Moreover, there is nothing in the passage that you reference which could specifically relate to Entwives, save for the presence of gnarled trees. And Middle-earth is hardly devoid of trees, gnarled or otherwise.
Well, of course. If something in the passage could "specifically relate to Entwives" we wouldn't have this thread, would we? The answer would be settled.

The whole point of this thread is that Tolkien hid the Entwives and I found them. You can't hide under a sign that says "I'm right here!" can you? So the lack of an official Entwife marker goes without saying.
But, just because there are limitations to the 'magic' in Middle-earth doesn't mean everything from Middle-earth is exactly how it is in our 'real world.'....
Old Man Willow (in Middle-earth) was simply a tree, but he certainly doesn't behave like the trees we have in reality. And as Tolkien points out in Letter 212, trees in his world can 'go bad.':
Woah! Stop right there. No need to go further. You made my point for me. "Tolkien points out"!

When Middle-Earth is different from this world Tolkien tells us about it. But unless he says otherwise, it is the same. Tolkien never has an in depth discussion of gravity, thus we can assume that the rules work the same.

Tolkien worked hard to make Middle Earth real. If you can find an exception or two, I guarantee you that given more years of life Tolkien would have corrected it.
The Lord of the Rings is in the fantasy genre and not everything from the real world behaves as it does in Tolkien's story. So, we end up with ropes that can untie themselves, nasty trees that try to eat hobbits, gynormous spiders...and so on.
Tolkien explains the trees, and the hobbits, and the spiders. They are NOT magical unexplained fantasy things. Tolkien defines them- makes them real. I've said it before and here it is again- just because LOTR is placed in the "fantasy" section at the library does not mean any old stupid unexplained thing can happen and be accepted. That's dumb. If LOTR was like that no one would read it.

There! If anyone ever again tries to use the "but it's fantasy" argument on my thread I'm just going to link them back to this post.

[The Saucepan Man]

The way they crossed rivers was every bit as "magic" as their cloaks and boats and televisions.The way that Haldir crossed the river had everything to do with his innate ability as an Elf (the abiity to walk across a single strand of rope) and nothing to do with any unusual quality of the rope itself. There was no need for him to reveal its auto-untie function (if indeed this rope shared the same quality as Sam's rope, which is not necessarily the case) because there were Elves on both sides of the river.

Why weren't they told about THE ROPE?! It makes no sense!! If the rope had special properties as important as auto-untie then they would have been informed.Perhaps this particular quality of the rope only worked in certain circumstances and they did not want to raise the Fellowship's expectations. Sam was all but distraught at the thought of having to leave it behind, so perhaps that is the "trigger" that was required. Possibly, the Elves thought those of other races incapable of forming such a bond with an Elven artifact such as to trigger its capabilities in this regard. In any event, while seemingly at odds with the manner in which most of the other gifts were handed over, this point by no means precludes the possibility that the rope had auto-untying capability.

Well, of course. If something in the passage could "specifically relate to Entwives" we wouldn't have this thread, would we? The answer would be settled.I agree. But if you would care to refer back to the passage from Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit quoted by Ardamir, you will see that (as noted in my post #70) there is far more in that passage which might be interpreted as subtle references to the Entwives than in the passage to which you are precariously clinging.

Woah! Stop right there. No need to go further. You made my point for me. "Tolkien points out"!You are of course conveniently overlooking the hint that Tolkien gives us as to the rope's capability. When Sam's gentle tug brings the rope down and Frodo attributes this either to the inadequacy of Sam's knot or the rope breaking, Sam says:

"... but I think the rope came off itself – when I called.”

Case closed. :p

[Thenamir]

He stroked the rope's end and shook it gently. `It goes hard parting with anything I brought out of the Elf-country. Made by Galadriel herself, too, maybe. Galadriel,' he murmured nodding his head mournfully. He looked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell. To the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came loose. Sam fell over, and the long grey coils slithered silently down on top of him.

I think you're both overlooking something very important here. There was a trigger, a "magic word", if you will. The rope was called, using the name if its maker, and it responded. Obviously, the word "Galadriel" has magical properties, and invoking it over the rope was the key, the trigger, by which the bearer could activate the "loosening mode". Something akin to a password. Sam says "Galadriel" and pulls the rope -- the knot falls away. Seems clear enough to me. :rolleyes:

In a more serious vein, I think we're arguing apples and oranges here. I think of "magic" as almost synonymous with "miracle". C.S. Lewis defined miracles (I'm paraphrasing) as displays of supernatural power which supercede the ordinary laws of physics. I think what TP is attempting to assert (though I'm open to correction)is that what some people call "magic" is just a better understanding of the "laws of physics" that govern the universe of Middle Earth. Sort of like the formulaic, assembly-line magic in the Harry-Potter books. What TM seems to be arguing is that while the use of "magic" in Middle Earth is more rare than in HP, it is still part of the "natural order" in that if the same elf does the same thing in the same way, you should get the same result. As opposed to "real magic", what I would call a "miracle", and which is probably closest to what Tolkien called the "eucatastrophe", the kind of thing that cannot be counted on to recur.

Although a television would be called magic not-so-many generations ago, having a television back then would be ultimately useless. A television (the processor) is a device that requires a couple of things external to itself for it to function as it was intended -- electricity (power) and a broadcast signal to receive and transform into visuals (direction). Perhaps (and this is just theory to toss around in discussion) Elves differ from Men in that they have not only the better understanding of the processes governing Arda (the "television"), but also the innate connection to Eru/immortality/what-have-you (the "electricity") and the ability to order their (forgive me if the terms are inexact) spirit in such a way as to give direction to that power to affect the natural world (the "broadcast signal").

So as to confuse the discussion further, let me intentionally mix my analogies a bit. The wizards of the Harry Potter universe are analogous to the Elves of Middle-Earth in that they each have the innate ability to call upon whatever power-source to affect their respective natural worlds, but according to laws and rules known to each. Correspondingly, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarves lack this innate ability, being the "muggles" of Middle Earth.

The difference between HP and ME, as I see it, is that in HP, the amount of "backing power" behind the "magic" appears to be limitless -- the wizards seem to be mere channels of some natural power outside themselves, the only difference in wizards being the level of their ability to channel whatever power supplies them. In ME, on the other hand, using "magic" seems to require a portion of that being's native strength, which can be exhausted if overused -- e.g. Morgoth pouring so much of his power into Arda that he himself was weakened to the point of being trapped in a fixed guise, or Sauron infusing the Ring with so much of his native power that he was reduced to almost nothing when it was destroyed, or Gandalf being weakened by his struggle with the Balrog over the door in Moria. It perhaps explains much about why magic is used so infrequently in ME.

It's a flawed analogy, I'm sure, but it was helpful to me in trying to understand TP's point of view. I now return you to your normal interesting discussion.

EDIT: This would also nicely explain why Feanor could not duplicate the creation of the Silmarils -- he had poured so much of his innate strength into their making, that he was incapable of doing it twice. Just a thought.

[Raynor]

But how is physical power to influence and interact with matter any more natural (less magical) than spiritual/mental power to influence and interact with matter? Inherent natural power is inherent natural power, no matter if it is physical or not.I disagree; the fea is not of this world, therefore the power it has cannot be compared to whatever powers a material object (even a hroa) might have.
The cloaks weren't camouflage only when enemy eyes were upon them. Now, items more unique and special, like Galadriel's vial of light, I can see being more complex and containing emotional and vocal triggers. But rope- I have difficulty believing it.Well, while we are at it, the issue of "authority", as a factor strengthening thought-transmission, can also be applied here. After all, the ropes were "delegated" to the hobbits. I would say this is in just in the same manner that the palantiri, for example, were "delegated" to the numenoreans, who afterwards derrived enough power from said "authority" that they could even defy Sauron's power [I am referring to both Aragorn and Denethor]. So, it would be "urgency" and "authority" too.

[Aaron]

Got reminded of how much I love this thread and decided to repost here.
Every so often, I'll visit this thing, go over the OP and mull over what Teleporno said, years later and it's probably obvious the guy was a hoaxer, but what can I say? He inspired me! Perhaps he believed in what he said.

But I had an idea, and by all means, call me a crazy idiot.
But what if the Entwives had became 'treeish'? What if they didn't all go away, but stayed in the forests?
Dreaming of wandering off and creating a garden, they instead stayed put, waiting for their husbands to share their vision.

But the male Ents, being notoriously contemptuous of 'hastiness' dithered and dathered, doing so for so long that the Entiwives became static and tree-like - literally bored stiff with their inaction.

Teleporno stated the importance of the womens liberation movement, what if the fate of the Entiwives reflects the other women, the ones who stayed within the old patriarchal system - waiting for things to change rather than changing them themselves?

What do you think?

[Inziladun]

But I had an idea, and by all means, call me a crazy idiot.
But what if the Entwives had became 'treeish'? What if they didn't all go away, but stayed in the forests?
Dreaming of wandering off and creating a garden, they instead stayed put, waiting for their husbands to share their vision.

But the male Ents, being notoriously contemptuous of 'hastiness' dithered and dathered, doing so for so long that the Entiwives became static and tree-like - literally bored stiff with their inaction.

Becoming "treeish" seems to be a process requiring a long period of time, so I don't see that happening on a large scale without at least some Ents being aware. I would also question the likelihood of the process happening to every one of the Entwives, since it seems to affect Ents fairly randomly, and not necessarily as an intentional act.

[Ardent]

This is from the song of the Entwives:

When spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the blade;
When blossom like a shining snow is on the orchard laid;
When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air,
I'll linger here and will not come, because my land is fair.

Fragrance fills the air in Ithilien, but the general type of trees are not orchard species, and the trees at the crossroads are far too large to fit the type described by Treebeard:

"But the entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forest; and they saw the sloe in the thicket... and the green herbs in the waterlands... and bear leaf and fruit..."

I do not know of any reason to suppose the Entwives were even 'treeish'. Though they had "the eyes of our people" they also had hair parched by the sun. This is why I'm not inclined to think the sighting of a tree that walked in The Shire was an Entwife. Though we're told they would like the Shire this sounds more like a searching Ent.
Considering their love of fruit and corn and watermeadow, and their golden hair, and the structure of Entish names (in our language at any rate) I would say that Goldberry fits the bill.

While this is my favoured view, I'm still glad that there is no explicit statement of 'here be an Entwife'. Even if there were such a comment from JRRT it would still raise the question of where the rest had gone, and it's much more fascinating to think Goldberry might be some other being like a Maiar or a fair young elf queen.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Considering their love of fruit and corn and watermeadow, and their golden hair, and the structure of Entish names (in our language at any rate) I would say that Goldberry fits the bill.

While this is my favoured view, I'm still glad that there is no explicit statement of 'here be an Entwife'. Even if there were such a comment from JRRT it would still raise the question of where the rest had gone, and it's much more fascinating to think Goldberry might be some other being like a Maiar or a fair young elf queen.

That's a very interesting point of view, never thought of it that way. It's certainly innovative and I like it, even though I don't find it likely :) But it's certainly a nice idea. I guess why I never thought of that was, Goldberry's personality does not seem very much like the way the Entwives are described. And while it is true Treebeard does not seem to recollect very well whether the Entwives looked a lot like the Ents or not, still, it is probably rather safe to assume, or expect, that Goldberry should have been a bit more, hum, treeish if she had been one...

Also, there's her name "River-daughter". She seems to be heavily associated with just that, she sings the rain-songs and songs about streams and so on, so why is she "River-daughter" if she is an Ent(wife)?

[Ardent]

... expect, that Goldberry should have been a bit more, hum, treeish if she had been one...
It was the Ents who loved the great trees, the Entwives loved lesser trees and watermeadows and herbs etc. If shepherd becomes like sheep then I'd expect Entwives to become more like the plants they love, in Goldberry's case waterlillies or Irises perhaps. But then if, as treebeard says, "the elves started it [talking to the trees to waken them]" then why should Ent not become more Elvish?

... Also, there's her name "River-daughter". She seems to be heavily associated with just that, she sings the rain-songs and songs about streams and so on, so why is she "River-daughter" if she is an Ent(wife)?
Because:
"When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air,
I'll linger here..."

It's a pity we don't know much about Radagast because herblore was part of his expertise, and he was the Maiar sent to Middle Earth by the female Valar who sang the Ents and herbs into being. Perhaps he dwelled in Rhosgobel, in the eaves of Mirkwood, because that was where the rest of the Entwives were? Certainly the fields of the Beornings were as garden-like as the Barrow Downs. Bilbo and Thorin's company, coming into that land:

"...noticed that great patches of flowers had begun to spring up, all the same kinds growing together as if they had been planted." TH, Queer Lodgings.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It was the Ents who loved the great trees, the Entwives loved lesser trees and watermeadows and herbs etc. If shepherd becomes like sheep then I'd expect Entwives to become more like the plants they love, in Goldberry's case waterlillies or Irises perhaps. But then if, as treebeard says, "the elves started it [talking to the trees to waken them]" then why should Ent not become more Elvish?
I think, based on the above, that Entwives would start looking more like herbs and plants rather than trees, but Ent looking more Elvish is a different step. That would require the Entwife in question turning away both from the Ent lifestyle (among trees) and the mainstream Entwife lifestyle (working in their gardens) to spending a lot of time with the Elves.

But I don't have anything against it. There were Elves passing around, such as Gildor's group. The only thing is that it would make Goldberry a really "wild teenager", or how to call it, a "total rebel" from both the Ent and Entwife lifestyle: roaming so incredibly far and spending time with Elves or whomever for a long time. And in the end, living in some pool where Tom found her (even if we discount the poem of Adventures of Tom Bombadil, where it is basically explicitely stated that she was the daughter of the River-woman, of course it depends on everyone how much "canonical" s/he deems it and whether we don't say that it's only what the folklore of Hobbits made out of the little they knew about Tom and Goldberry; there is still however Tom's explicit confession to Frodo and co. how he had found Goldberry in the river).

It's a pity we don't know much about Radagast because herblore was part of his expertise, and he was the Maiar sent to Middle Earth by the female Valar who sang the Ents and herbs into being. Perhaps he dwelled in Rhosgobel, in the eaves of Mirkwood, because that was where the rest of the Entwives were?
It was certainly not far from their original gardens, which were in the Brown Lands, as Treebeard said. But it does not really make much sense. If the Entwives really left their gardens (out of fear from the rising power of Mordor, perhaps, and so on), it would not really help or make sense to move only a couple of dozens of miles to the north. Besides, concerning the later ages, we must consider Radagast a bit of a rarity. Once the Mirkwood started darkening, nobody would really be happy about living too close to its south end - Eorl the Young, when riding south to help Gondor, was really freaked out from the idea of merely passing in the sight of the wood on the east bank. Most of all, I am not sure whether the area around Rhosgobel would be the best for the Entwives. If they loved gardens, and one presumes lots of open space (for example equal to the size of Fangorn) needed for that, the Anduin Vales are nice, true, but there would certainly be more suitable areas more to the East - just like Treebeard presumed that the Entwives might have gone that way (they originally left Fangorn exactly for that - going to the originally lush wide plains north of future Dagorlad).

Certainly the fields of the Beornings were as garden-like as the Barrow Downs. Bilbo and Thorin's company, coming into that land:

"...noticed that great patches of flowers had begun to spring up, all the same kinds growing together as if they had been planted." TH, Queer Lodgings.

Nothing against that description, but of course you must acknowledge that it is merely a description of cultivated gardens surrounding one house (later, in the times of a strong Beorning "nation" by the time of LotR, something bigger, of course). I mean, there were thousands and thousands of places like that in Middle-Earth, starting with the Shire (which however was all like that and was big, and that was one of the reasons Treebeard assumed the Entwives would have liked it), but you could speak in the same way about the meadows of Lebennin or whatever else - I am sure Ioreth's sisters had wonderful gardens somewhere in Imloth Melui or whatnot. I think if Entwives had lived near the Beornings, somebody would have noticed (the Beornings or Woodmen, namely).

[Zigûr]

It's a pity we don't know much about Radagast because herblore was part of his expertise, and he was the Maiar sent to Middle Earth by the female Valar who sang the Ents and herbs into being. Perhaps he dwelled in Rhosgobel, in the eaves of Mirkwood, because that was where the rest of the Entwives were?
For a long time I thought it curious that Radagast is not mentioned by Treebeard given that he was a Maia of Yavanna, but Yavanna was the Vala of animals as well as plants. I've eventually gained the impression that the Maiar "people" of the various Valar did not necessarily partake of the whole domain of their particular Vala: hence Aiwendil-Radagast was seemingly only interested in the animal side of the Yavanna-aspect of Arda, and not the plant. In Morgoth's Ring (where would I be without "Myths Transformed"?) the Professor notes that Sauron saw Gandalf as "only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals." (p.397) This would further suggest to me that Radagast's primary interest was in animals, despite his Vala being also concerned with plants.
After all, Treebeard describes Gandalf as "the only wizard that really cares about trees." (LR p.455) Then again Treebeard does add that "I do not know the history of wizards" and in Letter 153 Professor Tolkien remarks of Treebeard that "there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came." (Letters p.190)
That being said, as was quoted some years ago in this thread Professor Tolkien does offer some explanation for the Entwives' disappearance in Letter 144: "I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land", although he does leave room for surivors: "some, of course, may have fled east or even have become enslaved." So there is the possibility for a remnant to have ended up, seemingly, in Nurn or in Rhûn - a potential but I daresay unintentional association with, say, Dorwinion could perhaps be interpolated from this "fled east" suggestion.
Of course he does make a point of saying in Letter 247 of the Ents that "the males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna." So perhaps there is room for an Entwife-Radagast connection even if Radagast was primarily interested in animals. That being said I personally am rather resistant to much embellishment of Radagast's role: for my own part I tend to feel that Professor Tolkien wrote very little about him for a reason: because he considered him to have done very little, and to be rather insignificant for all his origin. I don't wish to digress but to me Radagast, although doubtless a "worthy wizard" in his own way, is very much representative of the fallibility of the Valar and their plans, even if in a very different way to Saruman.
Like Professor Tolkien I think it's nice to hope that the Entwives survived in some way, and I find the Ent/Entwife song to be very moving, but I think the Professor was wise to leave the matter ambiguous. That mystery, the sense of loss and the tiny hope of reunion and reconciliation which is so doggedly clung to is, in my view, more powerful and more valuable than him providing us with a hard and fast answer about what happened.

[FerniesApple]

I have a theory that Entwives live happily in Lothlorien tending the Mallorn trees.

[Inziladun]

I have a theory that Entwives live happily in Lothlorien tending the Mallorn trees.

If that were the case though, surely Treebeard would have known. In addition, Aragorn had visited Lórien many times, yet the Ents were unknown to him. The Mirkwood Elves too would seem to have been well placed to at least have heard of their presence, yet Legolas knew nothing more of Ents and Entwives than old songs of his people.

[Morthoron]

Sauron turned the entwives into trolls, and taught them how to drop their aitches.

Bad grammar, the greatest sin of Sauron.

[Tar-Verimuchli]

I'm not sure Sauron or any of his followers had the knowledge of agriculture necessary to establish crops in the fields of Nurn that could feed the armies of Mordor. It seems reasonable that either captured Entwives or men who had been taught by Entwives may have had a hand in this.

[Tar-Verimuchli]

Sauron turned the entwives into trolls, and taught them how to drop their aitches.



Thomasina, Berta and Wilhelmena. I'd imagine their conversation would have been more like a Mrs Brown's Boys sketch if that had been the case.

[FerniesApple]

If that were the case though, surely Treebeard would have known. In addition, Aragorn had visited Lórien many times, yet the Ents were unknown to him. The Mirkwood Elves too would seem to have been well placed to at least have heard of their presence, yet Legolas knew nothing more of Ents and Entwives than old songs of his people.

I think maybe they were present in spirit, their bodies having been destroyed by orcs.

[Nerwen]

I think maybe they were present in spirit, their bodies having been destroyed by orcs.
Haunting the place isn't exactly the same thing as "living happily"' though, is it?

[FerniesApple]

Haunting the place isn't exactly the same thing as "living happily"' though, is it?


depends on your definition of haunting. I dont happen to call it haunting as in spooks floating around a graveyard going 'wooo', but more a Genius loci perhaps sent by Yavanna, seeing as she loves all growing things I suspect Entwives would be dear to her.

[Morthoron]

depends on your definition of haunting. I dont happen to call it haunting as in spooks floating around a graveyard going 'wooo', but more a Genius loci perhaps sent by Yavanna, seeing as she loves all growing things I suspect Entwives would be dear to her.

Spirits in Middle-earth proper (outside of Valinor and the Halls of Mandos) are almost exclusively cast in a negative light: the Paths of the Dead, the Dead Marshes, the Barrows, etc. There really are no "happy spirits" inhabiting Tolkien's world, nor is there any textual evidence for any such conclusion.

Now, if you were to suggest that the entwives became treeish (bushy? bloomlike? shrubbish? ), then there is a precedent for that amongst ents and huorns; however, considering the Fellowship stayed for quite a while in Lorien without any hint of such a phenomenon, then it's still far-fetched.

[FerniesApple]

Spirits in Middle-earth proper (outside of Valinor and the Halls of Mandos) are almost exclusively cast in a negative light: the Paths of the Dead, the Dead Marshes, the Barrows, etc. There really are no "happy spirits" inhabiting Tolkien's world, nor is there any textual evidence for any such conclusion.

Now, if you were to suggest that the entwives became treeish (bushy? bloomlike? shrubbish? ), then there is a precedent for that amongst ents and huorns; however, considering the Fellowship stayed for quite a while in Lorien without any hint of such a phenomenon, then it's still far-fetched.


never suggested there was textual evidence. its my own pet theory. I like it as it is. Also I dont take a narrow view on what is and isnt a spirit.

[Morthoron]

never suggested there was textual evidence. its my own pet theory. I like it as it is. Also I dont take a narrow view on what is and isnt a spirit.

I understand this is a "pet theory" of yours. I was just wondering if there was any semblance of precedent in your conjecture. As there really isn't a hint of canon to support it, there's nothing further to discuss.

[Inziladun]

I like it as it is. Also I dont take a narrow view on what is and isnt a spirit.

Of the Ents' beginnings, The Silmarillion states that they were due to arrive when Yavanna's thought would 'summon spirits from afar'. Manwë seems to put them in the same category as the Eagles of the West, as also beings not born in bodies, but with a spiritual entry causing them to 'awake'. It seems to be a catchall explanation for everything from Eagles, to Huan, and maybe even to Tom Bombadil, to say that they are bodies inhabited by Auinur, but that really does seem the likely canon rationalization.

[FerniesApple]

I understand this is a "pet theory" of yours. I was just wondering if there was any semblance of precedent in your conjecture. As there really isn't a hint of canon to support it, there's nothing further to discuss.

thanks for being dismissive. much appreciated contribution to debate. No wonder this forum is largely empty.

[Morthoron]

thanks for being dismissive. much appreciated contribution to debate. No wonder this forum is largely empty.

But there Is no "debate". A debate requires a substantive argument. You offer nothing but a whim with no support. You, yourself, said your pet theory had no canonical basis. What more would you like to discuss?

[FerniesApple]

But there Is no "debate". A debate requires a substantive argument. You offer nothing but a whim with no support. You, yourself, said your pet theory had no canonical basis. What more would you like to discuss?

nothing. with you.

[Morthoron]

Of the Ents' beginnings, The Silmarillion states that they were due to arrive when Yavanna's thought would 'summon spirits from afar'. Manwë seems to put them in the same category as the Eagles of the West, as also beings not born in bodies, but with a spiritual entry causing them to 'awake'. It seems to be a catchall explanation for everything from Eagles, to Huan, and maybe even to Tom Bombadil, to say that they are bodies inhabited by Auinur, but that really does seem the likely canon rationalization.

Interesting, then, that Treebeard claimed that the ents were awakened by the Eldar, and it was the elves who taught them speech. Could this be an entish folktale on the lines of mannish folktales concerning the Lamps of Arda, or the story of Arien and Tilion?

We know the ents procreated and had entings, and Fangorn identified younger ents at the entmoot. I'm trying to recall any further info regarding ents in HoMe, without doing further research on a lazy holiday weekend.

[Inziladun]

Interesting, then, that Treebeard claimed that the ents were awakened by the Eldar, and it was the elves who taught them speech. Could this be an entish folktale on the lines of mannish folktales concerning the Lamps of Arda, or the story of Arien and Tilion?

As is not uncommon with Tolkien, there are ambiguities. Perhaps the embodied spirits were deliberately started out on a treeish level, with the teaching of the Eldar meant as an enriching and relationship-building exercise for both? Wouldn't that be just like a manager like Manwë to arrange. No doubt the annual Company Picnic at Lórien in Aman was a mandatory event. ;)

[Morthoron]

As is not uncommon with Tolkien, there are ambiguities. Perhaps the embodied spirits were deliberately started out on a treeish level, with the teaching of the Eldar meant as an enriching and relationship-building exercise for both? Wouldn't that be just like a manager like Manwë to arrange. No doubt the annual Company Picnic at Lórien in Aman was a mandatory event. ;)
Yes, the mandatory picnic was part of the third prophecy of Mandos. :D

Anyway, rather like the alternative version of orkish origins being that orc bodies were inhabited by Maiar, but then somehow devolved into mortality, there is often an ambiguity or possible alternative. The entwives, however, are more an enigmatic mystery rather than ambiguity. And one I don't think Tolkien ever wanted solved. Mysteries along that line obviously amused him.

[FerniesApple]

Of the Ents' beginnings, The Silmarillion states that they were due to arrive when Yavanna's thought would 'summon spirits from afar'. Manwë seems to put them in the same category as the Eagles of the West, as also beings not born in bodies, but with a spiritual entry causing them to 'awake'. It seems to be a catchall explanation for everything from Eagles, to Huan, and maybe even to Tom Bombadil, to say that they are bodies inhabited by Auinur, but that really does seem the likely canon rationalization.

thats interesting. I wonder if after they were 'awoken' if their physical bodies died they would then slumber or dream, and their dream would inhabit the land. Dont native Australians call their spirit world Dreamtime? or something similar.
I often wonder about Goldberry being some kind of water spirit too. Sometimes even inanimate objects like Elven rope seem to have a kind of intelligence of their own, maybe not spirit but a kind of sympathetic Elven magic maybe.

[Galin]

Technically Treebeard says that Elves began waking up trees and teaching them to talk, but it is a bit confusing, as earlier Treebeard seems to explain that some of 'us' are still true Ents, lively enough, but many are growing sleepy or tree-ish...

'Most of the trees are just trees, of course; but many are half awake. Some are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah, well getting Entish. This is going on all the time.'

'(...) Some of my kin look just like trees now, and need something great to rouse them; and they speak only in whispers. But some of my trees are limb-lithe, and many can talk to me. Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk.'

Does this simply mean that some 'true' Ents can get tree-ish, while other awoken trees [who began as trees] can get Entish, emphasis on the -ish part... but if so, yet if some are actually 'limb-lithe' and can talk to Treebeard, are they 'becoming' Ents?

And with respect to The Silmarillion text and the 1963 letter, are the Elves awaking the [or some] spirits summoned by Yavanna -- that is, sleeping souls inside trees, as Galadriel thinks is possible, in part [see below]. Although one would think they were all ready awake or waking, as long as the Elves appeared first.

Hmm.

The text that seems to have been the source for Of Aule And Yavanna appears to date 'at the earliest to 1958-59, but may well be later than that (...) This was followed by a text made on my father's later typewriter (see X. 300) that expanded the first draft, but from which scarcely anything of any significance in that draft was excluded. It bears no title, in the published Silmarillion it was used to form the second part of Chapter 2 Of Aule and Yavanna (...) This was of course a purely editorial combination.' Christopher Tolkien, commentary, War of the Jewels

And then we have a draft letter dated 1963:

'No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aule in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwe) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took on the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees.'

Christopher Tolkien writes that it seems likely enough that this part of the letter, and the text about the spirits summoned by Yavanna belong 'to much the same time'. Arguably so, but the draft letter could actually be later too, as on X. 300 Christopher explains that the earliest letter made on his father's later typewriter dates to 1959.

It's interesting (maybe) that in the text used for The Silmarillion, one gets the feeling that the Ents were surely referenced in the Music [referenced as these spirits anyway], if one gave enough heed to all the voices. The description even seems to say that Eru himself did not miss this, of course...

... but yet in the letter the High Elves in general say otherwise, even if some, including the great Galadriel, appear to have a similar opinion as was chosen for the construced Silmarillion.

Or something else ;)

I any case this chapter is an edited part of the early Silmarillion, again raising the question of how Tolkien himself intended to introduce the Ents in an 'origin context' is his ultimate Silmarillion -- which was arguably to be characterized as largely Mannish [according to various late characterizations by JRRT himself], if based on a measure of Elvish thought or texts, and contact with Elves.

[Morsul the Dark]

A couple of days ago a friend told me that he thought the entwives were mentioned at the very beginning, when Sam is talking to Ted Sandyman and mentions that his cousin had seen a man, as huge as an elm, walking outside the Shire. If that was true, it could have been easily an ent-wife as I don't think hobbits would be able to tell the difference between ent and entwife.

Regarding the entwifes being mentioned on The Two Towers, I must have missed it.

Was just thinking that. Also the ents' lack of knowledge regarding hobbits makes them more likely.

Add in the Shire is some of the remaining unspoiled "gardens"

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Farael
A couple of days ago a friend told me that he thought the entwives were mentioned at the very beginning, when Sam is talking to Ted Sandyman and mentions that his cousin had seen a man, as huge as an elm, walking outside the Shire. If that was true, it could have been easily an ent-wife as I don't think hobbits would be able to tell the difference between ent and entwife.

Regarding the entwifes being mentioned on The Two Towers, I must have missed it.



Was just thinking that. Also the ents' lack of knowledge regarding hobbits makes them more likely.

Add in the Shire is some of the remaining unspoiled "gardens"
But that can't be what the person ("Teleporno") quoted in the original post was talking about- if indeed he wasn't merely a troll, which is the vibe I'm getting.

Speaking of which, I'm inclined to think the creature described by Sam was also merely a troll- but did Tolkien ever clarify that? Anyone know?

[Kuruharan]

Speaking of which, I'm inclined to think the creature described by Sam was also merely a troll- but did Tolkien ever clarify that? Anyone know?

Sadly, I don't recall that he ever did. :(

Perhaps he just intended it to be a piece of gossip to lend a certain ominous tone to that part of the story.

[Inziladun]

I'm inclined to think the creature described by Sam was also merely a troll- but did Tolkien ever clarify that? Anyone know?

In Letters, Tolkien says nothing about the strange creature seen in the Shire. However:

There are or were no Ents in the older stories-because the Ents in fact only presented themselves to my sight, without premeditation or any previous conscious knowledge, when I came to Chapter IV of Book Three.

Letter 247

In HOME I Christopher Tolkien notes that the conversation in the Green Dragon about the Tree-men was present in the original draft, and posits that it could indeed have been a "premonition" of the Ents.

Back in Letters, Tolkien says:

Though I knew for years that Frodo would run into a tree-adventure somewhere far down the Great River, I have no recollection of inventing Ents. I came at last to the point, and wrote the 'Treebeard' chapter without any recollection of any previous thought: just as it is now.

Letter 180

With that, I think I lean to the idea that Tolkien had put the line in the hobbits' talk at the inn to presage the undeveloped adventure with the 'Tree-Men', and then just forgot about it (after all, it did take him a long time and a lot of rewriting to finish the book).

[Nerwen]

Thanks, Zil. So it's another "Balrogs' wings" situation, with no definite answer.

That said, I don't think it fits for the creature to be an Entwife (as opposed to an Ent). I mean, what's she supposed to have been doing for the entirety of the Third Age?:confused:

[Galin]

My guess is that Tolkien was thinking of giants when he began this description, and that through revision, Sam uses "tree men" because whatever was seen was as big as a tower or a tree.

I take Sam's "Elm remark" as part of the comic flow of the conversation: he begins with the Elm as a comparison for size, and an Elm then enters the conversation more generally (as a probability that it was simply an Elm), with Sam adopting this in his response (correct or not he hadn't actually seen the being in question in any event). Even if that's off target, it's interesting what is said later in the narrative, surviving into the published tale:


"He [Sam] had imagined himself meeting giants taller than trees, and other creatures even more terrifying, some time or other in the course of his journey, but at the moment he was finding his first sight of Men and their tall houses quite enough, indeed too much for the dark end of a tiring day." Three Is Company

I note that in the early writing giants were mentioned in narration right before the conversation in the Green Dragon is described. But for the sleep inducing textual history (as far as I could wrangle it out, and only hopefully correctly) see below the line of dread. As noted, Christopher Tolkien comments:

"(Was this passage (preserved in FR, p. 53) the first premonition of the Ents? But long before my father had referred to 'Tree-men' in connection with the voyages of Earendel: II. 254, 261)."

As far as the final version of the passage is concerned, the being described is too tall for an Ent or Entwife in my opinion, and its stride too long, unless one prefers to see the description to have "grown" in the telling, and that Hobbitish fancy has embiggened this being to great heights.

What might be safe to say is that at the time of writing the drafts of the conversation, Tolkien had yet to invent "Ents" as we know them, so that I doubt the history of the Ents and Entwives splitting apart was in his mind.

That said, beyond the line of dread lurks a very tall "Tree Giant" who seems to have followed close enough in the draft progression; again not Treebeard or Ents as according to the conception arrived at later (as Tolkien recalls), but giant Tree Beings.

_________________________________ line of dread


There appears to be at least a couple of years between the writing of the Green Dragon discussion and the writing of the chapter Treebeard, and I think we should take Tolkien at his word, that he invented Ents when he came to the particular chapter Treebeard -- that is, in the sense that it was only here that Ents came to be fully realized -- as compared to the idea of there being any tree-like giants in the story. These came earlier.

So whatever Tolkien meant with his early addition of Tree-men: in probably late Sept 1938, or early October 1938, he writes the chapter Ancient History (partially based on some earlier material), within what is called the 'Second Phase', this will include the descriptions:

"Trolls of a new and most malevolent kind were abroad; giants were spoken of, a Big Folk only far bigger and stronger than Men the [?ordinary] Big Folk, and no stupider, indeed often full of cunning and wizardry."

"(…) But what about these what do you call 'em -- giants? They do say as one nigh as big as a tower or leastways a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.' [changed at the time of writing to] 'But what about these Tree-Men, these here -- giants? They do say one nigh as big as a tower was seen up away…"


From probably mid October 1938 -- December 1938 the 'Third Phase' is completed, meaning Tolkien returns to the beginning of the story making a new fair copy manuscript of the whole work as far as the conversation between Frodo and Gloin at Rivendell. This phase includes the mention of Gandalf being imprisoned by 'Giant Treebeard.' Thus a reference to Giant Treebeard (however conceived, with his admittedly suggestive name), exists quite close on the heels of the first version of the conversation in the Green Dragon. In this Third Phase the passage concerning giants becomes:

"Trolls and giants were abroad, of a new and more malevolent kind, no longer dull witted but full of cunning and wizardry."

So giants of some sort are still around in the same phase as the mention of Giant Treebeard. No notable revision (with respect to our purposes here) is made to the passage concerning the conversation in the Green Dragon, noting that this version would appear to still contain as big as a tower but without or leastways a tree. Pausing to consider the final, published passages:

"Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons."

"… Tree-men, these giants as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away…"


I don't know when these final revision were made, but Tolkien will take out the reference to giants in the passage where trolls are noted, and revise the comparison to a tower to a comparison to a tree -- so now not 'as big' as a tower, or as big as a tree -- but bigger than a tree.

It would be interesting to know when this revision was made, especially if it came after Treebeard became much smaller. Nothing of note here seems to have been altered in the 'Fourth Phase' of this chapter, and Hammond and Scull generally explain (unless I missed something earlier) that in 1946-47 Tolkien would make further alterations to books I and II (as well as later), which would be after the chapter on Treebeard in any event.

Back to the 1930s: from Dec 1938 we jump a bit to February 1939, where Tolkien states in a letter: "though there is no dragon (so far) there is going to be a Giant."

Jump to Summer: on a letter dated 27-29 July 1939 "Treebeard" emerges: in this short text Frodo thinks Treebeard's leg is a tree-trunk and he has a "rootlike foot and many branching toes." Treebeard is in league with the Enemy here, pretending to be friendly. An outline page dated August 1939 reads: "Adventure with Giant Tree Beard in Forest."

Continuing with the tale, Gandalf (in the house of Elrond) will warn of the Giant Treebeard who haunts the forest between the river and the South Mts. And at about this time Tolkien will write an outline in which its described:

"Fangorn is an evergreen (oak holly?) forest. Trees of vast height. (…) If Treebeard comes in at all -- let him be kindly and rather good? About 50 feet high with barky skin. Hair and beard rather like twigs. Clothed in dark green like a mail of short shining leaves. He has a castle in the black mountains and many thanes and followers. They look like young trees [?when] they stand. (…) The tree-giants assail the besiegers and rescue Trotter &c. and raise siege."

So not relatively long after the conversation in the Dragon was written, Tree-beard is certainly more like a tree than simply being as tall as one, and he has thanes that look like young trees. Later when Tolkien is working on the chapter for Galadriel, Christopher Tolkien notes:

"Here the name Entwash clearly implies that Treebeard is an Ent, and he is specifically so called (for the first time) in the outline just given; but since Treebeard was still only waiting in the wings as a potential ingredient in the narrative this may be only a slight shift in the development of the word. The Troll-lands north of Rivendell were the Entish Lands and Entish Dales (Old English ent 'giant'); and only when Treebeard and the other 'Ents' had been fully realized would the Troll-lands be renamed Ettendales and Ettenmoors (see p. 65 note 32)."

CJRT, commentary, Galadriel

In The Story Forseen from Lorien there is an interesting note: "it could be Merry and Pippin that had adventure in Minas Morgul if Treebeard is cut out" [this was struck out]. We also have an description of Fangorn that now seems to indicate that Fangorn forest itself was not gigantic (along with Treebeard being so giant), as implied earlier with the huge flowers, since the description seems to say that the forest was once part of a larger forested area.

Before we get to the actual chapter Treebeard there is a page of notes about how Ents came to be, including statements like: "Did first lord of the Elves make Tree-folk in order to or through trying to understand trees?", or wondering about what they are, with: "hnau that have gone tree-like, or trees that have become hnau?" and other details. But by the end of 1941 -- beginning of 1942: Tolkien finishes book II and began book III, completing the chapter Treebeard around the end of Jan 1942.


Another interesting thing is that Christopher Tolkien quotes his father's letter about Tolkien having no recollection of inventing Ents, and writing the chapter without any recollection of previous thought and so on. Christopher Tolkien comments: "This testimony is fully borne out by the original text. 'Treebeard' did indeed very largely write itself."

And so at this point we begin to find out about Ents as Tree-shepherds, and Entwives and so on, or Ents as readers will come to know them.

Tree Tall

The "Giant Treebeard" is ensmallened when he becomes "Treebeard the Ent", then Treebeard the Ents embiggens again, but not back up to about fifty feet! In an early draft for the chapter itself, Treebeard was originally ten feet tall, revised to twelve, and then to "at least" fourteen, which while obviously tall, and even more so to Hobbits, is yet not really close to, say, the height of a fifty to one hundred foot oak or pine.

"an Ent would take nearly nine hours to do 70,000 strides and presumably in that time would go 70,000 yards at least, probably 4 ft a stride."

Hammond and Scull, Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings

A 4 foot stride is yards away from a 7 yard stride ;)

And in The Road to Isengard, three Ents are described "as tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more..."

A Tall Tale


"(...) it thus became a jesting idiom in the Shire to speak of 'on Friday the first' when referring to a day that did not exist, or to a day on which very unlikely events such as the flying of pigs or (in the Shire) the walking of trees might occur."

The Return of the King, Appendix D, footnote

This is the short version of my response!

[Nerwen]

:eek::eek::eek:

So... the cryptid in question was not an Ent as such, but may have started out as a tree-sized giant- the concept which eventually morphed into Ents.

Would you accept that as the even shorter version, Galin?

[Galin]

So... the cryptid in question was not an Ent as such, but may have started out as a tree-sized giant- the concept which eventually morphed into Ents.

Would you accept that as the even shorter version, Galin?

Well, I certainly like the word cryptid in any case! Though the ellipsis slowed me down a bit ;)

And one reaction to all of my above is: "well maybe so, but after the Ents were invented maybe Tolkien let the earlier Green Dragon discussion stay as was, to suggest an Ent/wife, 'cause tales about cryptids can grow in the telling."

[vladimir]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed and dealt with somewhere. Rereading the Two Towers, I noticed a brief passage that might be the one Teleporno was referring to.

In the chapter "Journey to the Crossroads", Frodo, Sam and Gollum have traveled for about 3 days since parting from Faramir, and they are nearing the crossroads. It is night, and the sinking moon is ringed with a sickly yellow glare. Gollum wants them to hurry, as where they are is too open to remain by day.

The pertaining paragraph reads as follows:

"He quickened his pace, and they followed him wearily. Soon they began to climb up onto a great hog-back of land. For the most part it was covered with a thick growth of gorse and whortleberry, and low tough thorns, though here and there clearings opened, the scars of recent fires. The gorse-bushes became more frequent as they got nearer the top; very old and tall they were, gaunt and leggy below but thick above, and already putting out yellow flowers that glimmered in the gloom and gave a faint sweet scent. So tall were the spiny thickets that the hobbits could walk upright under them, passing through long dry aisles carpeted with a deep prickly mould."

Note the description of the gorse-bushes. They are leggy below; ents have legs yet can be mistaken for trees. In addition, there is agreement with a couple details in Treebeard's description of Entwives in the chapter "Treebeard".

Like most gorse they have yellow flowers. Treebeard says the Entwives' hair was parched by the sun to the hue of ripe corn. That color matches.

Treebeard also says Entwives were bent and browned, with cheeks like red apples. Large varieties of gorse are like small trees that are often bent, and their brown bark is sometimes splotched with red.

Larger varieties of gorse grow to around 7-10 feet in height. That seems to fit.

A couple days before reaching the land described above, the area the hobbits passed through was described as partly open, with ilexes, ash, and oaks surrounded with launds of grass dappled with flowers. This agrees with part of Treebeard's description of the Entwives' preferences in environment.

Teleporno also hinted something about the Nazgul being a threat. The east road from the nearby crossroads leads directly to Minas Morgul, the stronghold of the Nine, and the passage does indicate recent fires in the area.

As posted earlier by Galin, there is another possible connection with Minas Morgul: "In The Story Forseen from Lorien there is an interesting note: "it could be Merry and Pippin that had adventure in Minas Morgul if Treebeard is cut out" [this was struck out]. " That might correspond to a later idea of Frodo and Sam having a related adventure as they neared Minas Morgul.

Where it stands, the gorse description is a little odd. Tolkien's descriptions are usually either directly bound to the story line or they frame an integrated context. Any loose ends are often explicitly proclaimed as such. However, at the described point in the hobbits' journey they are entering the fringes of Mordor, and the context being set is one of their leaving more or less normal woods and entering an area of corruption and danger and evil. Why then remark on the glimmering flowers and sweet scent of these old, tall gorse trees? One might be forgiven for taking it is a clue.

The passage above may or may not be what Teleporno was alluding to; I suspect it is. There's no indication of sentience by the trees; there's nothing about entish eyes. Whether the description was consciously meant to indicate Entwives, or it's just gorse, remains up to individual readers. For me it's pleasant to imagine that the Entwives did not entirely disappear.

[Huinesoron]

Vladimir - I think you're onto something! I've made something of a sad little study of this weird thread over the last couple of weeks, and I'm pretty sure you've found something no-one has pointed to before.

First things first: Tolkien was very clear that he never wrote the Entwives into the books. Teleporno was almost certainly wrong. But we can still try and figure out what he was looking at - and I think you've done just that.

So what do we need to be looking for? Ardamir collected it all in the first post: Teleporno believes the Entwives are 'alive and living' in Book 4, that they're a sort of in-joke referencing the Suffragists or women like them, that we need to look at clusters of certain types of words, and that they're in danger from the Nazgul.

There are five passages in The Two Towers which people have pointed to (I said I'd looked into this... I've combed all three threads in case someone came up with something):

The Taming of Smeagol

The cleft was longer and deeper than it seemed. Some way down they found a few gnarled and stunted trees, the first they had seen for days: twisted birch for the most part, with here and there a fir-tree. Many were dead and gaunt, bitten to the core by the eastern winds. Once in milder days there must have been a fair thicket in the ravine, but now, after some fifty yards, the trees came to an end, though old broken stumps straggled on almost to the cliff's brink.

For a long time, this was my favoured option. Treebeard is originally described as looking like a stump, there are references to both fir and birch at the Entmoot, and the Emyn Muil is directly adjacent to the Brown Lands. The idea of Suffragists being on the edge of a cliff, or willing to throw themselves off a cliff out of spite, sounds plausible as a Tolkien opinion. There's also the notion that Sam's rope (which was tied around one of the stumps) was untied by a kindly Entwife.

Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

All about them were small woods of resinous trees, fir and cedar and cypress. and other kinds unknown in the Shire, with wide glades among them; and everywhere there was a wealth of sweet-smelling herbs and shrubs. The long journey from Rivendell had brought them far south of their own land, but not until now in this more sheltered region had the hobbits felt the change of clime. Here Spring was already busy about them: fronds pierced moss and mould, larches were green-fingered, small flowers were opening in the turf, birds were singing. Ithilien, the garden of Gondor now desolate kept still a dishevelled dryad loveliness.

The plants of Ithilien are strongly anthropomorphised - the word 'dryad' is a key one, as are the green 'fingers' of the larches. Nearby paragraphs also specifically reference the Northfarthing of the Shire (which is where Sam's tale of a walking tree comes from, plus Treebeard thought the Entwives would like the Shire). It's inarguable that the Entwives would feel right at home here. But... there is also a specific mention of 'falling into untended age', and (of course) no suffragist jokes.

Journey to the Cross-roads 1

"[The staves given by Faramir to Frodo and Sam] are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning."

This is a quite horrifying idea I came across... 'lebethron' means something like 'polished fingers' or 'finger-tree', which is highlighted as a perfect name for an Ent, and the link to finding and returning is a good one. But I can't quite believe that Teleporno believes the Entwives were being chopped up for use in walking sticks...!

Journey to the Cross-roads 2

For the most part it was covered with a thick growth of gorse and whortleberry, and low tough thorns, though here and there clearings opened, the scars of recent fires. The gorse-bushes became more frequent as they got nearer the top; very old and tall they were, gaunt and leggy below but thick above, and already putting out yellow flowers that glimmered in the gloom and gave a faint sweet scent. So tall were the spiny thickets that the hobbits could walk upright under them, passing through long dry aisles carpeted with a deep prickly mould.

On the further edge of this broad hill-back they stayed their march and crawled for hiding underneath a tangled knot of thorns. Their twisted boughs, stooping to the ground, were overridden by a clambering maze of old briars. Deep inside there was a hollow hall, raftered with dead branch and bramble, and roofed with the first leaves and shoots of spring. There they lay for a while, too tired yet to eat; and peering out through the holes in the covert they watched for the slow growth of day.

But no day came, only a dead brown twilight.

As discussed by Vladimir immediately above. I would add that the 'hollow hall', 'stooping', and specific use of 'dead brown' as a descriptor in the following paragraphs are words that could easily evoke the Ents/Entwives - and also that the idea that suffragists could easily be 'prickly' when confronted with 'foolish, boorish men' (per Teleporno's description). The presence of a suffragist joke which isn't a massive stretch is what's convinced me that this is the best candidate.

Journey to the Cross-roads 3

Presently, not far ahead, looming up like a black wall, they saw a belt of trees. As they drew nearer they became aware that these were of vast size, very ancient it seemed, and still towering high, though their tops were gaunt and broken, as if tempest and lightning-blast had swept across them, but had failed to kill them or to shake their fathomless roots.

[...]

At length they reached the trees, and found that they stood in a great roofless ring, open in the middle to the sombre sky; and the spaces between their immense boles were like the great dark arches of some ruined hall.

Suddenly, caught by the level beams, Frodo saw the old king's head: it was lying rolled away by the roadside. `Look, Sam!' he cried, startled into speech. `Look! The king has got a crown again!'

This is one of my favourite passages of The Two Towers, and the conspicuous formation of living trees - specifically noted to be ancient - at a location associated both with attacks from the Nazgul and a gardening-type miracle caught my eye. I really wanted this to be Teleporno's reference - perhaps suffragists liked to hang out in circles? - but I don't think it can be. These are gigantic trees with massive roots, which... isn't how the Entish folk are described. Alas.

~

Finally, since we're doing Entwife theories: my personal pet theory is that Treebeard (and Tolkien) got their fate precisely backwards. The Brown Lands and their inhabitants were burned during the War of the Last Alliance - but not by Sauron. Whose country did they live right next to? Who did the men they taught agriculture to serve, obey, and worship? Who would absolutely sympathise with the Entwives' efforts to bend their entire country to their will, setting it all into neat rows with nothing out of place? Who, in point of fact, would be utterly wasting his time trying to stop the Last Alliance by burning the Brown Lands, seeing as most of his enemies would probably come up from the south (by way of Gondor and the Gap of Rohan)?

Exactly. The Brown Lands were the Breadbasket of Sauron, and were burned by the Men and Elves to stop them from supplying his armies any longer. When the Ents came looking, they would have looked around shiftily and said, "Er, yeah, I've seen them, they went... south. I mean west! Definitely west. Go back that way."

(What, you don't think? ^_^)

hS

[vladimir]

Huinisoron, I'm not quite down with your Brown Lands / breadbasket theory. Admittedly, Tolkien omitted any explanation of how Sauron would provision his forces, and that's a bit of a hole in things, given that plants don't grow in Mordor. No doubt orcs can get by on smegma and guano, and trolls can just eat dirt (though it makes them cranky at potty time,) but food is needed for the legions of Southrons and Easterlings et al. Maybe Sauron can pull some wizardry like the loaves & fishes thing. But then there's all the industry to forge weapons and arms, and all the other requirements of an immense army. Of course, there are evidently no female orcs, just sayin', so maybe Sauron gets a bit of a break in that regard.

But the idea that Entwives were servants of Sauron is just too untidy in the big picture. It would break Treebeard's heart.

[Zigûr]

The Brown Lands were the Breadbasket of Sauron
plants don't grow in Mordor.
What about Nurn? It was the largest part of Mordor, and was completely given over to farming to feed Sauron's armies.
Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen

[Huinesoron]

Of course, there are evidently no female orcs, just sayin', so maybe Sauron gets a bit of a break in that regard.

Yes, and if you look at Trajan's Column, you'll see clear evidence that Roman legionaries reproduced asexually, with females only existing amongst their captives... :D

I don't think there's much grounds for the 'no female orcs' theory, since the only place we ever meet them is in military camps (or, if we're including Goblin Town, in a context where our protagonists hardly had time to go checking for pigtails and petticoats, as it were). We know orcs can breed - Azog had a son, Bolg, and there are sundry half-orcs in the later stages of the books - so assuming that they didn't (because... what?) seems to be in violation of Occamwë's Razor (which states 'Do not unnecessarily multiply entities, or they'll be like this razor - completely useless, what do I need with a razor, do I look like I'm in my third stage of life?!').

Back towards (though not on) topic... I should clarify that the Breadbasket of Sauron theory shouldn't be taken entirely seriously, since it does go directly against the closest we have to an authoritative statement from Tolkien. It is rather depressing - but is it more so than the flirted-with notion that Luthien died early because wearing the Silmaril burned her out? 'The Entwives fall to evil by their love of Order' is at least more nuanced than Saruman's fall, which seems to have been 'because power is fun'. It's on a level with Denethor's, I think, which also ends in fire.

Zigûr, Nurn is indeed the biggest argument against the necessity of the Breadbasket; without it, I would probably be convinced by my own theory (Lorien help me). But it's always possible to theorise inconvenient facts away (maybe Nurn wasn't yet farmed, due to being not as fertile), and it doesn't address the big question of whose side the Men taught by the Entwives were on...

[Zigûr]

I don't think there's much grounds for the 'no female orcs' theory
To take it further, there is in fact quite hard evidence of the existence of female Orcs from the pen of Professor Tolkien himself, as seen in the 'Munby Letter', quoted at the Tolkien Gateway here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Mrs._Munby_21_October_1963
Professor Tolkien told his correspondent that
There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known

[Huinesoron]

To take it further, there is in fact quite hard evidence of the existence of female Orcs from the pen of Professor Tolkien himself...

:D! Perhaps we need to take a cue from Teleporno the Entwife-finder and go on a hunt for any obscure passage that might indicate the presence of the Orcwives? Here, I'll start:

To their surprise they came upon dark pools fed by threads of water trickling down from some source higher up the valley. Upon its outer marges under the westward mountains Mordor was a dying land, but it was not yet dead. And here things still grew, harsh, twisted, bitter, struggling for life. In the glens of the Morgai on the other side of the valley low scrubby trees lurked and clung, coarse grey grass-tussocks fought with the stones, and withered mosses crawled on them; and everywhere great writhing, tangled brambles sprawled.

Obviously what we have here are the Gardens of the Orc-wives, where they grow their orchards and their berries. It's a miserable life - the Orc-wives are 'harsh, twisted, bitter, scrabbling for life' (obviously an in-joking commentary on the lives of the wives left behind by the poorer soldiers of WWI) - but it's all they've got. Note the specific use of the word 'glens', pointing us towards the Scottish highlands where the women stayed at home while the men went a'warring; the name 'Morgai' could also be another hint, since it evokes 'Morgan', as in le Fay, noted for being a women who was not attached to a man. And of course, i think we can take this passage as proof that all Orc-wives were named Marge... :D

(And, come to think of it, there's no reason not to claim the 'low scrubby trees' who 'cling' and 'lurk' are another one of those endless hints at Entwives, too...!)

[Huinesoron]

The Taming of Smeagol

...

For a long time, this was my favoured option. Treebeard is originally described as looking like a stump, there are references to both fir and birch at the Entmoot, and the Emyn Muil is directly adjacent to the Brown Lands. The idea of Suffragists being on the edge of a cliff, or willing to throw themselves off a cliff out of spite, sounds plausible as a Tolkien opinion. There's also the notion that Sam's rope (which was tied around one of the stumps) was untied by a kindly Entwife.


I hate to come back to this, but on further consideration, I've swung back towards this passage. The key piece of evidence is the 'clusters of words' concept. Compare this:

In the face of the stony wall there was something like a stair: natural perhaps, and made by the weathering and splitting of the rock, for it was rough and uneven. High up, almost level with the tops of forest-trees, there was a shelf under a cliff. Nothing grew there but a few grasses and weeds at its edge, and one old stump of a tree with only two bent branches left: it looked almost like the figure of some gnarled old man, standing there, blinking in the morning-light.

[...]

They came at length to the edge of the shelf almost at the feet of the old stump; then they sprang up and turned round with their backs to the hill, breathing deep, and looking out eastward.

With this:

Some way down they found a few gnarled and stunted trees, the first they had seen for days: twisted birch for the most part, with here and there a fir-tree. Many were dead and gaunt, bitten to the core by the eastern winds. Once in milder days there must have been a fair thicket in the ravine, but now, after some fifty yards, the trees came to an end, though old broken stumps straggled on almost to the cliff's brink. The bottom of the gully, which lay along the edge of a rock-fault, was rough with broken stone and slanted steeply down.

[...]

The outer fall was indeed no longer sheer, but sloped outwards a little. It looked like a great rampart or sea-wall whose foundations had shifted, so that its courses were all twisted and disordered, leaving great fissures and long slanting edges that were in places almost as wide as stairs.

[...]

With that he stood up and went down to the bottom of the gully again. He looked out. Clear sky was growing in the East once more.

[...]

He took up the rope and made it fast over the stump nearest to the brink...

Teleporno made a big deal of 'clusters of words', and in these two passages we have a whole heap of matching pairs:


'Something like a stair' versus 'almost as wide as stairs'.
'Rough and uneven' rock versus 'rough with broken stone'.
'One old stump' versus 'old broken stumps'.
'Gnarled' old man versus 'twisted' birch.
M&P 'looked out' eastward; Frodo 'looked out', also to the East.
M&P move 'to the edge of the shelf almost at the feet of the old stump'; Sam ties his rope 'the stump nearest to the brink'.


Both quotes also make a point that very little grows where they are, and on a trivial level, both descriptions of the view (not quoted) include smoke.

I don't think Tolkien wrote the two sequences as intentional mirrors to each other (for one thing, you can see how broken up the description in Book 4 is), but I think it's entirely possible Teleporno thought he had. It fits with the claim that they're in danger from the Nazgul (we get a Nazgul screech in the Emyn Muil sequence), and, as I said before, the Emyn Muil is right where you would expect to find fleeing Entwives: on the edge of their old lands, run right up against a cliff.

But I still rank vladimir's thicket as a close second. ^_^

hS

[Morthoron]

Teleporno...perhaps the most unfortunate name in the whole of Tolkien's canon.

[Inziladun]

Teleporno...perhaps the most unfortunate name in the whole of Tolkien's canon.

Poor J.R.R.T never dreamed that the term could one day be used for an actual prurient operation. :(

I still think Sam's mention of the "Tree-man" was 1. An RL move by Tolkien to foreshadow the "giant" episode he planned; and 2. An in-book appearance of a Huorn from the Old Forest.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Poor J.R.R.T never dreamed that the term could one day be used for an actual prurient operation.
If he didn't, he showed a surprising ignorance of Greek for a Classical exhibitionist. Teleporno is the Greek prefix Tele (roughly 'remote', 'at a distance' cf Television) and porno, from póron 'harlot, prostitute' (e.g. in pornocracy*). JRRT could be remarkably stubborn about his projected audience reception, as in his insistence for years that readers would associate gnomes with knowledge and wisdom as in gnomic, gnomon, and not garden ornaments.






*Apparently describing the tenth-century government of Rome.

[Inziladun]

If he didn't, he showed a surprising ignorance of Greek for a Classical exhibitionist. Teleporno is the Greek prefix Tele (roughly 'remote', 'at a distance' cf Television) and porno, from póron 'harlot, prostitute' (e.g. in pornocracy*). JRRT could be remarkably stubborn about his projected audience reception, as in his insistence for years that readers would associate gnomes with knowledge and wisdom as in gnomic, gnomon, and not garden ornaments.

Hmm. If he was aware, maybe he just didn't think, or at least hoped, that the average English-reading consumer wouldn't make any negative association.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think it's probably more complicated than that. Whatever associations somebody might make, that was the proper form according to the phonological rules JRRT had laid down. To change it to something else would mean inventing a reason for the exception or rethinking the rules themselves, potentially having to change dozens of other names distributed around a frightening array of manuscripts. Also Tolkien preferred to write his way around problems like this rather than simply remove them. In any case, this sort of coincidental double meaning crops up in natural languages all the time. I found a reference once to a Persian personal name Nazgül, meaning 'shy rose'.

[Huinesoron]

Hmm. If he was aware, maybe he just didn't think, or at least hoped, that the average English-reading consumer wouldn't make any negative association.

... which would be an interesting hope, given that the word 'pornography' is attested as far back as the 1840s. Actually, 'porno' itself shows up in the OED by the '50s... I think 'Teleporno' is a 'late writings' name from Tolkien, so probably the late '60s or even early '70s.

I think it's probably more complicated than that. Whatever associations somebody might make, that was the proper form according to the phonological rules JRRT had laid down. To change it to something else would mean inventing a reason for the exception or rethinking the rules themselves, potentially having to change dozens of other names distributed around a frightening array of manuscripts. Also Tolkien preferred to write his way around problems like this rather than simply remove them. In any case, this sort of coincidental double meaning crops up in natural languages all the time. I found a reference once to a Persian personal name Nazgül, meaning 'shy rose'.

This I think hits close to the mark, though I'd make two additional (and slightly contradictory) points:

-I don't know that the 'Valinorean Celeborn' writings were ever aimed at publication; they could just have been Tolkien 'thinking on paper' (so to speak). He could even have had a quiet chuckle at how The Youth Of Today would probably read the name.

-'Teleporno' isn't the pure Quenya form (which would be 'Telporno') - it's Telerin, a language that... well, wasn't used for much at all. 'Alatariel' and 'Telperion' are the only other words of note that use it - and 'Telperion' uses a different form of the word for 'silver'! Obviously 'Telpeorno' would sound <i>horrifying</i> to Elvish ears, but I'm sure Tolkien could have come up with a different form if he'd felt the need. The compound form 'Telep(i)' was literally never used other than in 'Teleporno' itself, and he actually rejected 'Telepimpar' for 'Telperimpar' as a translation of 'Celebrimbor'. So we could have had 'Telperorno'.

(Yeah, there's a tele-pimp as well as tele-porn, I know, I know.)

hS

[Inziladun]

I don't know that the 'Valinorean Celeborn' writings were ever aimed at publication; they could just have been Tolkien 'thinking on paper' (so to speak). He could even have had a quiet chuckle at how The Youth Of Today would probably read the name.

The first part seems reasonable, the second: not so much. Tolkien just doesn't give the appearance of a man who would have found that amusing.

[Huinesoron]

The first part seems reasonable, the second: not so much. Tolkien just doesn't give the appearance of a man who would have found that amusing.

I'd generally agree, but... there is that fact that he created a handful of Gnomish & Qenya words relating to sexuality. While he generally comes across as being almost entirely uninterested in that sort of thing, it's always worth considering that one's private thoughts can be very different to one's public presentation.

At the very least, we know that he enjoyed wordplay; so while he may not have been amused himself, I'm sure he wouldn't take offense at us being so. :)

hS