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Old 01-09-2006, 02:27 AM   #1
Ardamir the Blessed
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I Found the Entwives!

Well, not I, but a member by the name of Teleporno (Telerin for Celeborn) of the Tolkien board Minas Tirith claims in the thread "I Found the Entwives!" to have found them. He has not revealed exactly where in LOTR he found them, but he has given several hints. But only one other member, Ararana, has managed to find what Teleporno is hinting at, or so she says. There is a common belief among the other members that this discovery is a hoax.

As for myself, I am the member Herendil who has posted in the thread. I am now wondering if the members of The Barrow-Downs can have better success in this search than what the members of Minas Tirith have had so far. You could read the whole MT thread to get the full idea of Teleporno's and Ararana's hints and the progress of the search, but for your convenience, I will list their hints below in chronological order. The member Halion found a few hints by Teleporno on the board The Land of Rohan (his replies to the thread “Did Treebeard ever find the Entwives?” here), I will list these as well.


Teleporno


Quote:
I found the Entwives!

At least I think so. In my nineteenth rereading of the The Two Towers, I found 'em, right there. Tolkien answered his own riddle.

Now I understand why he was so cagey in his letters about them. He wanted readers to discover the answer to his riddle.

Can you find the Entwives?

I'll come back within the week with quotes so you can see for yourself whether I'm right.

PS -- Is Christopher Tolkien alive? It seems like I read his obituary, but I can't find any evidience of his death on the Net. I'd like to write him.

Quote:
Hey, okay, I'm short on time -- a hasty mortal. But they're in the second half of The Two Towers.

I'm considering not revealing it since I can hardly believe that nobody's noticed them in the fifty years of publication of these books! Of ocurse my "evidence" is subjective. Tolkien does not say "here are the Entwives." But he does, I think, make a very deliberate joke.

I wanna at least get honorary membership in the Tolkien Society for this one...

Teleporno
"eves of grass"

Quote:
I'm in the process of corresponding with The Tolkien Society about my discovery. I'll list the chapter when they reply to me.

I decided it is such a pleasant little mystery that to detail it all would be to spoil it for you, sort of like answering a riddle you should figure out yourself.

It also, to me, now means I must reread the books all over yet again (no pain there!) to see how many other hidden things the Professor put in there.

The TS webpage says they usually respond within several days, but it may take longer.


I checked out all the links posted above and none of them come close to my apparent discovery.

Quote:
I'm now doubly worried about the Nazgűl finding the remaining Entwives and scorching them.

Congratulations, you've made a compelling argument to NOT post my discovery here.

And true enough to my word, I have already narrowed it down sufficiently that careful readers should be able to find them now that they suspect they're there.

Where?

Goodbye.

Sincerely,
Teleporno

Quote:
Wow, I come back after a year and my little thread about the Entwives is still kicking.

Tolkien Society people tell me to publish a paper on the idea. As if.

It's a joke I'm sure some of Tolkien's cronies got, especially his cloistered academic friends parodied (and ennobled) by the Ents. Think of British women in the early 20th century...Suffragists...women who wouldn't put up with foolish, boorish men...

Read The Two Towers and closely note clusters of words.

I can't say anymore and keep the joke secret. It's there. I'm certain.



Ararana


Quote:
Holy crap! ok I dont really think any of you are going to believe me, becuase well, how many of you really believed Teleporno? I didnt, but the thought of finding the Entwives in the back of my head drove me crazy and before I knew it I was reading TTT, over and over again. And YES its right there! Tolkien has a good sense of humor! its so a deliberate joke. Its like tolkien is saying "Duh, there right here, were the blazes did you think they'd be!".

And hats off to Teleporno for not revealing their location. It is so rewarding to find them on your own like this, for any hardcore tolkien fan. Come on guys your so close to finding them! Teleporno gave you enough clues. just piece it together like a puzzle.

And yeah, I dont think the Nazgul had anything to do with the disappearance of the Entwives.

For those of you who DO believe me, just keep looking your so close just use Teleporno's clues.

Quote:
Yeah, I didnt think any of you would believe me. And now my name on this board probably went to hell. Sorry, I found it, you dont believe me. Thats your problem, not mine.



Teleporno (on The Land of Rohan)


Quote:
The Entwives are alive and living in The Lord of the Rings but you must look closely to find and decipher the riddle. Once you find them, don't tell anyone!

Quote:
It's an elaborate inside joke as much as a riddle, just as the Ents can be taken as a broad spoof of haughty English academics (specifically Treebeard is JRRT's rendering of C.S. Lewis) the Entwives are the middle-class British women who don't tolerate the foolish behavior of men -- like the suffragists. I know it's an extremely obscure thing to find and you have to do a lot of homework to understand my explanation of the riddle. Reading such as Humphrey Carpenter's authorized biography (yeah, I know it's very flawed and omits a lot) and the Letters of JRRT. The letters where he answers readers questions about the Entwives are deliberately cagey for exactly this reason -- he wants YOU to find them.

Remember, he's a subtle writer and every word counts.

Quote:
It's all in The Two Towers. Keep an eye on the clustering of certain types of words.

That's all I'm writing.

Happy 2004 to all Tolkien fans worldwide!
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Old 01-09-2006, 02:19 PM   #2
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A couple of days ago a friend told me that he thought the entwives were mentioned at the very beginning, when Sam is talking to Ted Sandyman and mentions that his cousin had seen a man, as huge as an elm, walking outside the Shire. If that was true, it could have been easily an ent-wife as I don't think hobbits would be able to tell the difference between ent and entwife.

Regarding the entwifes being mentioned on The Two Towers, I must have missed it.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:08 PM   #3
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I recommend reading closely Book IV, the second book of TT, since that book was specified by Teleporno. Or rather, 'the second half of The Two Towers' - there is a slight risk that Teleporno did not mean Book IV by 'the second half of The Two Towers', but Book IV plus the last chapters of Book III.

And keep an eye on 'the clustering of certain types of words'!
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:23 PM   #4
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I'm wondering if possibly this Book IV reference could refer to the flowers bound around the old statue's head like a crown at the crossroads. I thought there might be more to that than sheer coincidence, and as the Entwives were supposed to represent more ordely gardens than wild woods, perhaps they might have been responsible for "crowning" the king again. Just a thought.

And this would make sense somewhat in light of the idea that they were somehow in danger of being scorched by Sauron, seeing as Ithilien is rather close to Mordor.
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Old 01-09-2006, 03:32 PM   #5
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I'm not too sure what this is all about finding answers and keeping them secrets, we usually like to share our knowledge and thus help each other grow in our understanding of Tolkien. Cyptic games are usually in The Quiz Room. Is that what this is, or am I misunderstanding you?

In response to what it is that may have been found in the second half of the Two Towers, without having done any research the instance describing Ithilien in its dishevelled dryad loveliness jumps to mind.
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Old 01-09-2006, 05:51 PM   #6
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Well, here's the two sections I think might be the likely candidates:

Quote:
Many great trees grew there, planted long ago, falling into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants; and groves and thickets there were of tamarisk and pungent terebinth, of olive and of bay; and there were junipers and myrtles; and thymes that grew in bushes, or with their woody creeping stems mantled in deep tapestries the hidden stones; sages of many kinds putting forth blue flowers, or red, or pale green; and marjorams and new-sprouting parsleys, and many herbs of forms and scents beyond the garden-lore of Sam. The grots and rocky walls were already starred with saxifrages and stonecrops. Primeroles and anemones were awake in the filbert-brakes; and asphodel and many lily-flowers nodded their half-opened heads in the grass: deep green grass beside the pools, where falling streams halted in cool hollows on their journey down to Anduin.
Quote:
Presently, not far ahead, looming up like a black wall, they saw a belt of trees. As they drew nearer they became aware that these were of vast size, very ancient it seemed, and still towering high, though their tops were gaunt and broken, as if tempest and lightning-blast had swept across them, but had failed to kill them or to shake their fathomless roots.
Though I must admit I can't yet see the joke or riddle in there!
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:31 PM   #7
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I've been watching this forum for awhile and I've decided that I'll say my two cents. If the Entwives are alive, there are several places they could have went besides the usual theories. I've been studying these places in the Atlas of Middle Earth and the atlas, period. Here are the places that I think they could have went:

1. In Eriador on the west and to the south of the Blue Mts. (both ranges), there are several forest. one being the Eryn Vorin in Minhiriath. It seems to be uninhabited by man nor elf. Another being the forest on the slopes of the southern chain of the Blue Mts. I don't think it's visited very by elf or dwarf. For one, the elves live one hundred fifty to two hundred miles north of this forest. The other being that the dwarves don't go out of there mountains unless they have to. Also there is a forest on the slopes of the northern chain of the Blue Mts, in North Lindon. It's more likely that the entwives would be in the northern end of the wood, because the elves probably live in the southern end. Considering that it's only around sixty miles east of the wood.

2. they could have went two the forest on the northern coast of the sea of Rhun? or the could have went to the Wild Wood. That is where elves and men came from and later abandoned. The only race I see being there are the dwarves. Which they say the clans the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks, and Stonefoots originated from the east (probably the Mountains of the East which were the Red Mts). They could be there protecting the Wild Wood from the Dwarves? Because weren't the Ents and Entwives made also to protect the forest from the dwarves? Tell me if I'm wrong.

3. Beyond Far Harad there are many huge forests. There doesn't seem to be anybody living that far south, so it is possible.

That's my two cents.

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Old 02-09-2006, 06:48 AM   #8
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I don't really get the point of that topic. I tried reading it all, but its a lot.

What I don't get it this:
First Teleporno starts by saying that the answer to the riddle is 'right there' in the second half of TT. Then it should be easy to point out where they are once you know where to look, right?
But then Teleporno writes a huge confusing essay about all references to entwives in anything Tolkien ever wrote. This is all very interesting, but no where does he tell us: this is where the entwives are. After reading his essay I still don't have a clue where the entwives are.
Why write a complicated essay about it when he can just quote that part of the TT that matters? If he's going to go public with his discovery, why not just tell us in one line where the ents are?
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:14 PM   #9
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Funny tha t Teleporno hasnt responded to it....
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Old 02-09-2006, 10:45 PM   #10
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I remember seeing that “Can you find the Entwives?” topic on Minas Tirith back in 2003

After reading that post I went back and reread the book and failed to find any mention apart from one of the hobbits claiming to see a tree like creature.

I myself think that the original poster was just looking to get attention and pump up his post count. My question is why would you make such a statement and fail to give us proof

Quote”

Congratulations, you've made a compelling argument to NOT post my discovery here.

And true enough to my word, I have already narrowed it down sufficiently that careful readers should be able to find them now that they suspect they're there.

/end quote

If he had indeed found them he would have told us all exactly what paragraph he was reading.
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Old 02-10-2006, 12:09 AM   #11
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Searching for Entwives...scrath that, I am searching for Teleporno

Bear with me...this may be long. Michael Martinez, who is far more knowlegable than I, posted on the Minas Tirith forum and couldn't make head or tail of Teleporno. However, I think I've dredged up enough to convince me he did find something and I don't agree with it (whatever "it" is).

Here is some more information on Teleporno from the Land of Rohan website: here. Both Minas Tirith and Rohan contain a reference to Kansas. (Did anyone say Wizard of Oz? ) For some reason, this particular thread in Rohan is not accessible through the link Ardamir originally provided for us. I found it through google.

Quote:
The place I'm writing from looks a lot like Lothlorien in the Peter Jackson extended DVD release of the film of FotR. It's a large hill with beautiful trees. It's even got it's own mythical name, Mount Oread. I work for the University of Kansas in Lawrence, Kansas. It's about a half-hour drive from downtown Kansas City, Missouri, hometown of jazz hero Charlie Parker.

I received a bachelor's degree in English and Film Studies at KU in 1992. Some of my coursework included study of Old English (a grad class) and fantasy literature. I also read lots of mythology and ancient heroic writing, from Egil's Saga to Beowulf to The Kalevala to the Eddas.

Of Tolkien, I've read
The Hobbit: at least four times, first time at age 10; just reread it over the weekend in about ten hours;

Lord of the Rings: At least six times, first time around age 13, just started it again today;

The Silmarillion: Three times. Finished it in December;

Unfinished Tales: Once, finished it Friday;

Lost Tales, Vol. I: Once, in the mid-eighties in hardback;
Lost Tales, Vol. II: Partially read;
Lays of Beleriand: Partially read;
Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien: Once, rereading again.
My first inclination was to assume that this person never found anything about the Entwives and was merely posting to irritate the posters at Minas Tirith. But looking at what we know about his credentials from the post above, his knowlege of sources (though not the greatest, he knew something), and also an anlysis of his other posts, I've come to believe that he thought he'd found something. It wasn't purely a joke.

I have no idea what he found re the Entwives but his posts point consistently to an approach he is taking---both in terms of the Entwives and the few other posts that are on these sites. He thinks that Tolkien uses hidden jokes, conscious allusions to other authors, and bases some of his characters on real people. He actually spells out some of these supposed links not re the Entwives but in other posts he's written re other scenes and characters in Tolkien.

Here's a post from Jan 2003 on Minas Tirith that gives a hint of this.

Quote:
Aiwrendel is correct according to my reading. And the Shakespeare stuff is clearly present throughout Tolkien (he was 'recording' the lost mythology of England, after all):

Ents = Wood coming to Dunsinane (Macbeth); and
Aragorn = Reluctant king in waiting (King Henry IV Part One) are two that are very obvious. Back when I was a college student studying Shakespeare I noticed many references JRRT made to WS, as well as Chaucer, Mallory, Beowulf, and Milton, to name a few.

The reference of being "born of no woman" is to Julius Ceasar. The reverse, "slain by no man" (sic) is clearly his little joke. Prof Tolkien did have to earn the respect of his Oxford cronies, after all!
We can see from this that Teleporno had a thing about Tolkien making "little jokes" and that these jokes are hidden. In this regard he also seems to be searching for allusions that JRRT made to other authors. This all ties in nicely with what he said on the Minas Tirith thread re the Entwives......references to jokes and hidden things. My inclination then is that Teleporno was following a particular train of thought in all his posts, and, using particular techniques he favored, he did think he'd discovered "something" concerning the Entwives.

Quote:
Tolkien does not say "here are the Entwives." But he does, I think, make a very deliberate joke.
Quote:
I decided it is such a pleasant little mystery that to detail it all would be to spoil it for you, sort of like answering a riddle you should figure out yourself.

It also, to me, now means I must reread the books all over yet again (no pain there!) to see how many other hidden things the Professor put in there.
I think his posts on Tom Bombadil are also a key. There's nothing new here in terms of content but Teleporno is insistent that JRRT based many characters on actual people. (We'll see this same suggestion later in the Entwife thread.) See here on a non- entwife reference:

Quote:
I'm rather new around here, but I've been reading Tolkien for twenty-five years. So when I found this thread I thought I'd drop in my favorite theory about Tom, but Ensa Lucis already said it here in May 2001.

Tom is the author himself. He's in the center of the world, yet removed. He's old both among Tolkien's characters, having been dreamt up by JRRT around 1907 (if memory serves). And JRRT knew that when he died, although his Middle-Earth stories would survive, the world would cease to be revealed since he was it's sole creator. So, Tom and Ronald are both "last as they were first".

Plus, all the "Goldberry is waiting" lines make me think about a busy academic whose hobby was writing, but was yet a devoted husband. Goldberry is Mrs. Tolkien.

I've always guessed that JRRT based many of his characters on actual people, although I've never read of who they might've been. Radagast might be Charles Williams. Whoever Saruman was, Tolkien clearly developed contempt for him!
I do not believe for one minute that Tolkien based his characters on real people and put them as hidden jokes into the text, but that is what Teleporno seems to be hinting at, whether we're talking about Entwives or other characters. Take a look at this reference regarding the Entwives. The Ents are Tolkien's academic friends and the Entwives some sort of suffragists who won't put up with the baloney of cloistered academics. This was posted months afterward on both Rohan and M.T. and is the most explicit statement we have from him concerning the identity of the Entwives.

Quote:
It's a joke I'm sure some of Tolkien's cronies got, especially his cloistered academic friends parodied (and ennobled) by the Ents. Think of British women in the early 20th century...Suffragists...women who wouldn't put up with foolish, boorish men...

Read The Two Towers and closely note clusters of words.

I can't say anymore and keep the joke secret. It's there. I'm certain.
Where does all this lead? Ahem.....on the basis of the scholarly evidence available, I would say this. The poster Teleporno uses a consistent approach in both the Entwife and non-Entwife threads. Therefore, it is not a total spoof: he thought he found something using the same approach he'd taken on his other posts: hidden jokes, allusions to real people and/or other authors. For some reason, probably because he enjoyed seeing people squirm, he preferred not to spell out his findings.

I, for one, think that his idea of allusions to real people is hokum. His earlier reference to Charles Williams as Radagast is double hokum! Moreover, I simply do not accept his bald analogy that Ents are a parody of Tolkien's academic friends. And since I can't accept his characterization of the Ents, I also can't accept the other half of the equation: his views on the Entwives (whatever or wherever they are)! This gets us into another level of contention. There has been much conversation on this website as to whether Tolkien appreciated or engaged in parody. Teleporno strongly suggest that the Ent/Entwife paradigm is some sort of parody. I, for one, do not believe that.

Am I barking up the wrong tree? (Let's just hope I'm not tugging at an Entwife's skirt!) I am also at a total loss as to those "cluster of words".
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Old 02-13-2006, 11:28 AM   #12
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no i dont have a clue to a passage but i do have another theory as opposed to making anopther thread ill add it here

ents and darves hate each other....yet dwarf women and entwives are amazingly rare is it possibly frusterated with their male counterparts dislike for each other the women of these two races went to leave in harmony somwhere?
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:18 PM   #13
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eowyntje:

I was the one who wrote (or is actually writing) and posted the essay on Minas Tirith. I have not found what Teleporno claimed to have found, but I have made a lot of research on Entwives, and present my findings in my essay, which is still under work. My user name on Minas Tirith is Herendil, Teleporno and I are not the same person.


Child of the 7th Age:

I agree with you that Teleporno has a tendency of finding hidden jokes in Tolkien, and that he probably did think that he found a joke concerning the Entwives, whether it really is a joke or not.

However, he is right about the fact that the Ents were partly inspired by the Great Birnam wood in Macbeth; Tolkien himself tells us that:

Letter #163, note:
Quote:
Their [the Ents’] part in the story is due, I think, to my bitter disappointment and disgust from schooldays with the shabby use made in Shakespeare of the coming of 'Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill': I longed to devise a setting in which the trees might really march to war. And into this has crept a mere piece of experience, the difference of the 'male' and 'female' attitude to wild things, the difference between unpossessive love and gardening.
Also note the last passage - it might hint at a parody of Tolkien's academic friends and their wives.

It does seem that Tolkien put some traits of the Inklings into the Ents (especially Treebeard). Perhaps the Entmoot was a parody of their meetings at The Eagle and Child.

Biography:
Quote:
When eventually he [Tolkien] came to write this chapter [LR, ‘Treebeard’] (so he told Nevill Coghill [a member of the Inklings]) he modelled Treebeard’s way of speaking, ‘Hrum, Hroom’, on the booming voice of C. S. Lewis.
Treason of Isengard, ‘Treebeard’:
Quote:
There are some small particular points worthy of mention in this first part of the chapter. In the fair copy corresponding to TT pp. 66 – 7 … his [Treebeard’s] ejaculation 'Root and twig! ' replaced 'Crack my timbers!'
A note on this:
Quote:
A pencilled note on the fair copy says that 'Crack my timbers' had been 'queried by Charles Williams'. The same change was made at a later point in the chapter (TT p. 75).
Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and Charles Williams were all members of the Inklings. In my opinion it is not that farfetched then to suspect that the Entwives were a 'parody' of their wives.
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Old 02-13-2006, 08:26 PM   #14
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Question

I Disagree with 1 point
Quote:
Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and Charles Williams were all members of the Inklings. In my opinion it is not that farfetched then to suspect that the Entwives were a 'parody' of their wives.
Would this not be the other way around? With the Inklings all meeting in The Eagle and Child for a regular drink and discussion, it should have been the wives looking for the men (or entwives looking for the ents)

Also from your post on mt



Quote:
Tolkien made this ‘assumption’ about the Entwives in Letter #144:
quote:

I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin …

I was going to post that this says all that needs to be said that the entwives are no more.

I have been thinking… no really I have…


Could the disappearance of the entwives be a link to what was happening to Tolkien in his life at that time?

I ask this because Tolkien was fighting in the war, and was separated from his loved ones? Could this be the true reason? The letter 144 says that


Quote:
I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin …
If the Ents lost the Entwives was this a mirror of Tolkien and his loved ones?

I so want to read more of that letter but I need to wait for payday to get a copy
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Old 02-13-2006, 09:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardamir the Blessed
However, he is right about the fact that the Ents were partly inspired by the Great Birnam wood in Macbeth; Tolkien himself tells us that:
Yes, and I think most Tolkien fans around here (those who have read your quoted letter anyway) were familiar with that fact...

What I fail to see here, is a connection between INSPIRATION (as between Birnam Wood and the Ents) and anything to do with WILD GOOSE CHASES. Quite frankly, I am highly skeptical that Tolkien would have written any clues into his story regarding the Entwives. He was a good deal more enamoured of leaving some things complete mysteries, such as Tom Bombadil, than he was of private in-jokes, clues, and hidden messages. When he felt the urge to explain something, or fit in a new historical explanation, he did so completely straightforwardly, albeit in his usual, alternate-versions/indecision mode of draft writing. As examples, I point you towards the cats of Queen Beruthiel and the "rods of the Five Wizards". Both are completely anomalous terms insofar as we know anything of their origin with regards to the text of the Lord of the Rings, but when Tolkien sat down to think up and explanation, he did not try to hide it whatsoever in his text elsewhere.
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Old 02-17-2006, 11:53 AM   #16
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Alkanoonion posted:
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With the Inklings all meeting in The Eagle and Child for a regular drink and discussion, it should have been the wives looking for the men (or entwives looking for the ents)
I think that Tolkien was so often away at such meetings that his wife started to feel bad about it.

Biography:
Quote:
Even then, family life never entirely regained the equilibrium it had achieved in Leeds. Edith began to feel that she was being ignored by Ronald. In terms of actual hours he was certainly in the house a great deal: much of his teaching was done there, and he was not often out for more than one or two evenings a week. But it was really a matter of his affections. He was very loving and considerate to her, greatly concerned about her health (as she was about his) and solicitous about domestic matters. But she could see that one side of him only came alive when he was in the company of men of his own kind. More specifically she noticed and resented his devotion to Jack Lewis.
Of course, she did not leave him, like the Entwives left the Ents. Perhaps Tolkien took his relationship problems one step further in the Ents-Entwives relationship.



Quote:
I was going to post that this says all that needs to be said that the entwives are no more.
I know that the letters about Entwives may be interpreted as indicating fairly strongly that the Entwives are dead, but I think that it is quite an 'amateurish' approach only to rely on these letters without bothering to check for hints about Entwives in the narrative.



Quote:
Could the disappearance of the entwives be a link to what was happening to Tolkien in his life at that time?

I ask this because Tolkien was fighting in the war, and was separated from his loved ones?
Tolkien 'invented' the Entwives in the 40s, but he did not fight in WW II - therefore I am pretty certain that the Entwives do not have anything to do with that war. He did fight in WW I, but he had not come up with the Entwives at that point, only 'proto-Ents', it seems.


Formendacil posted:
Quote:
Quite frankly, I am highly skeptical that Tolkien would have written any clues into his story regarding the Entwives. He was a good deal more enamoured of leaving some things complete mysteries, such as Tom Bombadil, than he was of private in-jokes, clues, and hidden messages. When he felt the urge to explain something, or fit in a new historical explanation, he did so completely straightforwardly, albeit in his usual, alternate-versions/indecision mode of draft writing.
It seems that there are quite a few elements in Tolkien's writings of which there is not any explicit description. There are hints scattered throughout the texts that you have to piece together in order to get a better view of Tolkien's thinking, and there might be some things that Tolkien came up with but never wrote down, but they still work within and are a part of what he did write down. Actually, if everything were explicitly clear in his texts, we would not have these discussions, would we?

But I realise that some sort of a hidden joke would be different. However, the investigations of Child of the 7th Age have made me almost convinced that Teleporno at least thought that he had found something that he called a 'joke'.

He posted on MT:
Quote:
The reference of being "born of no woman" is to Julius Ceasar. The reverse, "slain by no man" (sic) is clearly his [Tolkien's] little joke.
I am thinking that the joke could be a similar "reverse joke" - I checked all the famous Shakespeare quotes, but none of them looked familiar. But the joke does not necessarily have to be a reverse Shakespeare quote, it could be of someone else too. Maybe C.S. Lewis or Charles Williams?


Some weeks ago I sent an e-mail to Teleporno regarding his discovery, but have not received any reply.

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Old 02-18-2006, 09:02 AM   #17
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Yesterday, Hyarion posted a link on TolkienNews to a FAQ of the rec.arts.books.tolkien news group which contained the next answer to the question 'What became of the Entwives?' [To be complete, I quote the whole article, so I repost some quotes already posted in this thread.]


Quote:
No definite answer was given to this question within the story. However, Tolkien did comment on the matter in two letters, and while he was careful to say "I think" and "I do not know", nevertheless the tone of these comments was on the whole pessemistic. Moreover, he doesn't seem to have changed his mind over time. The following was written in 1954 (in fact before the publication of LotR):

What happened to them is not resolved in this book. ... I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin. They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult -- unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know. Letters, 179 (#144)

Note that the above reference to a "scorched earth policy" by Sauron makes the destruction of the Entwives' land seem a much more serious and deliberate affair than was apparent from the main story, in which Treebeard merely said that "war had passed over it" (TT, 79 (III, 4)).

The following was written in 1972, the last year of Tolkien's life:

As for the Entwives: I do not know. ... But I think in TT, 80-81 it is plain that there would be for the Ents no re-union in 'history' -- but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were 'not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory.' .... Letters, 419 (#338)
[The reference to TT 80-81 is to the song of the Ent and the Ent-wife, as recited to Merry and Pippin by Treebeard; the speech by Aragorn which Tolkien quotes is from RK, 344 (Appendix A).]

While the above comments do not sound hopeful, there nevertheless remains the unresolved mystery of the conversation between Sam Gamgee and Ted Sandyman in The Green Dragon. It took place during the second chapter of FR and has been pointed to by many as possible evidence of the Entwives' survival:

'All right', said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.' 'Who's *they*?' 'My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. He *saw* one.' 'Says he did, perhaps. Your Hal's always saying that he's seen things; and maybe he sees things that ain't there.' 'But this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking -- walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch.' 'Then I bet it wasn't an inch. What he saw *was* an elm tree, as like as not.' 'But this one was *walking*, I tell you; and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors.' 'Then Hal can't have seen one', said Ted. FR 53-54 (I, 2)

Now, this conversation takes place early in the story, when its tone was still the "children's story" ambience of _The Hobbit_ (see LessFAQ, Tolkien, 1). When it is first read the natural reaction is to accept it as "more of the same" (i.e. another miscellaneous "fairy- story" matter). However, once one has learned about the Ents it is impossible to reread it without thinking of them. This impression is strengthened by Treebeard's own words to Merry and Pippin:

He made them describe the Shire and its country over and over again. He said an odd thing at this point. 'You never see any, hm, any Ents round there, do you?' he asked. 'Well, not Ents, *Entwives* I should really say.' '*Entwives*?' said Pippin. 'Are they like you at all?' 'Yes, hm, well no: I do not really know now', said Treebeard thoughtfully. 'But they would like your country, so I just wondered.' TT, 75 (III, 4)

Taken together, these two conversations make the notion that what Halfast saw was an Entwife seem at least plausible. However, as far as can be determined Tolkien never explicitly connected the matter with the Entwives, indeed never mentioned it at all. So we are left to speculate. (The fact that a creature described as being "as big as an elm tree" couldn't be an Ent doesn't prove anything one way or the other. It could indicate that the story is just a fabrication by a fanciful hobbit, but it is equally possible that a fourteen foot tall Ent might look gigantic to an unprepared hobbit and that the story was exaggerated in the telling.)

Nor is textual analysis helpful. Tolkien himself, in a discussion of his methods of invention, mentioned that the Treebeard adventure was wholly unplanned until he came to that place in the story:

I have long ceased to *invent* ... : I wait till I seem to know what really happened. Or till it writes itself. Thus, though I knew for years that Frodo would run into a tree-adventure somewhere far down the Great River, I have no recollection of inventing Ents. I came at last to the point, and wrote the 'Treebeard' chapter without any recollection of any previous thought: just as it now is. And then I saw that, of course, it had not happened to Frodo at all. Letters, 231 (#180)

The rough drafts in HoMe confirm that Sam and Ted's conversation was composed long before Ents ever entered the story (Return of the Shadow, 253-254; Treason, 411-414). Thus, Tolkien could not have had them in mind when he wrote it, and it must indeed have originally been a random, vaguely fantastic element. On the other hand, as he said of Tom Bombadil, who also entered the story early: "I would not have left him in if he did not have some kind of function." (Letters, 178) The implication is clear: everything in the early chapters which was allowed to remain was left in for a reason. When he did so with the Sam/Ted conversation he must have known how suggestive it would be. But how it fits in with the darker speculations expressed in his letters is not clear (unless he changed his mind later).

This may be a case of Tolkien's emotions being in conflict with his thoughts. T.A. Shippey has noted that "he was in minor matters soft-hearted" (RtMe, 173). (Thus, Bill the pony escapes, Shadowfax is allowed to go into the West with Gandalf, and in the late-written narratives of UT Isildur is shown using the Ring far more reluctantly than the Council of Elrond would suggest (UT, 271-285) and a way is contrived so that Galadriel might be absolved from all guilt in the crimes of Feanor (UT, 231-233)). It may be that, lover of trees that he was, Tolkien wished to preserve at least the hope that the Ents and Entwives might find each other and the race continue. But the unwelcome conclusions from what he elsewhere called "the logic of the story" must have proven inescapable.
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Old 02-18-2006, 09:15 AM   #18
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Were hobbits originally entwives?
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Old 02-19-2006, 09:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earendilyon
Summary?

Heh.

On topic. I played a game once called Petals Around the Rose. You can find it on google. The basic thing is just that it throws the dice and you can answer the number answer. But to get it right, thinking scientifically and logically only sets you to really losing your sanity.

But when you look at the game without thinking logically, it comes clear in moments.

In the same manner, I believe that Tolkien may very well have masked bits and pieces and perhaps little clues into his writing about the Entwives. I'm a skim reader and cannot offer incredibly wise quotes and scientific manner, but I can offer this. Tolkien never intended on making his writings into such an exceedingly deeply debated arguement. He wasn't trying to write allegory into everything. I forget the source for that idea. But yet, it's heavily inspired by myths and such.

It's quite possible to assume that there could very well be hidden findings. Easter eggs, shall we say?

Which leads me to another theory. Why weren't there five rings of power, and if there were, did the entwives receive them? Maybe they're invisible, the remaining entwives stalking the eaves of Middle-earth, searching their entish husbands with mournful voices...

(cough)

I intend on rereading the Two Towers in exceeding detail now. Oh, goody. Just what I wanted to do. ^_^

But I love the theories concerning the idea of Tolkien's wife. But an idea—is it explicitly said, anywhere, that entwives looked exactly like Ents?
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Old 02-20-2006, 12:06 AM   #20
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Sorry, Ms. Skywalker, no offence is intended, but I have to disagree with you on all points. Please don't take the following personally:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eowyn Skywalker
In the same manner, I believe that Tolkien may very well have masked bits and pieces and perhaps little clues into his writing about the Entwives. I'm a skim reader and cannot offer incredibly wise quotes and scientific manner, but I can offer this. Tolkien never intended on making his writings into such an exceedingly deeply debated arguement. He wasn't trying to write allegory into everything. I forget the source for that idea. But yet, it's heavily inspired by myths and such.
As a matter of fact, Tolkien deliberately said that he wasn't writing allegory at all. How that proves the following, I'm not sure:

Quote:
It's quite possible to assume that there could very well be hidden findings. Easter eggs, shall we say?
Is it indeed? Aren't allegories "hidden meanings"? What is the difference between an allegory and an Easter Egg, other than the topic? An Easter egg, by definition, is a hidden prize for the reader, which furthers the STORY not at all. In the same context, an allegory is a real world, typically more reference. Although placed in the story, it similarly has no real point with regards to the furthering of the STORY.

Note: I am speaking, of course, of allegory such as is found in C.S. Lewis's The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, an example being the correspondence of Aslan to Christ. From an internal perspective, Aslan and Christ's similarities have nothing to do with the workings of the tale. It is only to the outside observer -the reader- that the similarities have any meaning. Similarly, the Easter eggs you say exist have no internal purpose in the story: hidden clues about the Entwives have nothing to do with the story. Only to us, the outside readers, do they mean anything. Again, if they exist.

Quote:
Which leads me to another theory. Why weren't there five rings of power, and if there were, did the entwives receive them? Maybe they're invisible, the remaining entwives stalking the eaves of Middle-earth, searching their entish husbands with mournful voices...
Only five Entwives? There were quite a few more Ents than Entwives then! Furthermore, if there had been Five Rings for the Ents, there would have been mention of it by the Wise, would there not? Or is this ANOTHER Easter Egg?

One, Three, Seven, and Nine are all numbers that tend to have symbolic meaning, in both the Judeo-Christian tradition to which Tolkien belonged, and among other cultures. The number five, although a proper part of an odd number sequence, does not. If Five is to be included, then why not two, four, eleven, and thirteen?

Quote:
But I love the theories concerning the idea of Tolkien's wife. But an idea—is it explicitly said, anywhere, that entwives looked exactly like Ents?
Entwives may or may not have come from Tolkien's marital life. To be INSPIRED by something, whether consciously or unconsciously, does not make something a direct copy. The Entwives can have sprung from his own married life without being a direct reference back to that married life.

Again, my apologies if I have offended, such is not my intent. But I find myself in complete (it seems) disagreement.
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Old 02-20-2006, 03:44 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Eowyn Skywalker
Which leads me to another theory. Why weren't there five rings of power, and if there were, did the entwives receive them?
It's a public secret among Tolkienists that the Five Rings of Power went to the Hobbits.
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Old 02-20-2006, 11:54 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Formendacil
As a matter of fact, Tolkien deliberately said that he wasn't writing allegory at all.
I would say it is a matter of debate; there are numerous refferences in his letters to the inevitability of allegory, out of which I will quote a few:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #109
of course, Allegory and Story converge, meeting somewhere in Truth. So that the only perfectly consistent allegory is a real life; and the only fully intelligible story is an allegory
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #131
I dislike Allegory - the conscious and intentional allegory - yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #163
In a larger sense, it is I suppose impossible to write any 'story' that is not allegorical in proportion as it 'comes to life'; since each of us is an allegory, embodying in a particular tale and clothed in the garments of time and place, universal truth and everlasting life
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Old 03-04-2006, 10:00 AM   #23
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is it as simple as looking for clues in the elven song about the entwives?

middle-earth is based off europe so maybe if someone is good at geography we can kind of look into it for example the entwives speak of corn i dont know much about corn but i can assume it comes from a more southern area?...thats the only clue i remember sadly the book isnt in front of me
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Old 03-13-2006, 01:41 PM   #24
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Im Double poting im evil!(although it is over a week later)


Does anyone think that bombadil's brooch has anything to do with the entwive'ss locations?

Assuming im right about Bombadil being an ent spirit the brooch may have been a clue to where entwives are...also the blue wizards...

Im not saying every little detail is connected but is it possible that the three biggest mysteries(blue wizards, bombadil, entwives) are connected somehow if they are then how?
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Old 03-28-2006, 01:44 PM   #25
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Having read all the evidence posted here and consulted Tolkien's own Letters , I'm afraid that I don't accept Teleporno's contention that Tolkien inserted a riddle to explain the Entwives' whereabouts somewhere into The Two Towers. I'm prepared to face Ardamir's charge that it is "quite an 'amateurish' approach only to rely on these letters without bothering to check for hints about Entwives in the narrative", but I don't agree with it. I think Tolkien's own written words about the narrative are perfectly sufficient evidence to counter what Teleporno has given us to argue in favour of his theory.

Earendilyon has already posted the relevant passages from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, so I won't repeat them except to reiterate a few very key points: "I think in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good" and, more importantly, "what happened to them is not resolved in this book" (both from Letter 144). Yes, it's true that there “are quite a few elements in Tolkien's writings of which there is not any explicit description”, but this is not one of them. He has explicitly told us, in this letter, what he knows about the Entwives. I certainly don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility for Tolkien to have included riddles in his text that he wants his readers to decipher, but I find it extremely hard to believe that he would then throw his readers off the trail by plainly stating that the riddles are not answered in the text in question. That seems to be the act of someone who doesn't want his riddle to be solved or discovered at all . . . and if that's the case, why bother writing a solution in the first place?

In any case, I somewhat question Teleporno's credibility. Child of the Seventh Age referred to his academic credentials, and in turn I point out that (unless someone on this board has knowledge to which I am not privy), we accept these things only on Teleporno's say-so, not with independent corroboration. It isn't hard to falsify credentials on Internet message boards . . . which does not necessarily indicate that Teleporno is doing so, but needs to be kept in mind nonetheless. I do find it interesting that the Shakespearean quote he references (about being "born of no woman") is in fact from Macbeth - one of the Weird Sisters tells Macbeth that "no man of woman born" can harm him, but Macduff is still able to because he was "from [his] mother's womb untimely ripped" (i.e. born by Caesarian section, which may account for the Caesar reference here). It has been some years since I read Julius Caesar, but I am fairly certain that no similar quote appears there . . . and if it does, it is certainly not as likely a source as the one from Macbeth is (since Macbeth's situation strongly parallels that of Éowyn and the Lord of the Nazgűl). Moreover, as someone who is nearing the completion of her fourth year of undergraduate study and preparing for graduate school next September, I find Teleporno's response to the suggestion that he publish his findings somewhat unprofessional, to say the least: “Tolkien Society people tell me to publish a paper on the idea. As if.” He should know by now that's not how academia works. And certainly the hint he gives us to help us find whatever he's discovered - "keep an eye on the clustering of certain types of words" - is vague enough that it could refer to almost any passage in the novel.

For my part, I am inclined to agree with Lindolirian, who said:
Quote:
I'm not too sure what this is all about finding answers and keeping them secrets, we usually like to share our knowledge and thus help each other grow in our understanding of Tolkien. Cyptic games are usually in The Quiz Room. Is that what this is, or am I misunderstanding you?
Are we Tolkienites a community of sharing and helping one another, much like hobbits (now that I think of it), or are we not? Even if Teleporno isn't falsifying his credentials, and he is sincere in alleging his discovery, it seems the action of a mean old braggart to post repeatedly saying, "I've found this hugely exciting bit of information, and I'm not telling you where! NYAH!" I'm quite sorry to say it, because I've wanted badly to find the Entwives for some time now, but I have to confess that I think this is just a mistake at best, and a hoax at worst, that has taken in a lot of people who want to believe, against all hope, that the Ents can find their Entwives somewhere out there.

Then again, it seems Tolkien was a big fan of believing against all hope. So if that's where you are, please don't give up on my account. It's just one woman's opinion. And, hold it though I might, I certainly haven't given up on Ents and Entwives entirely, and I probably never will.
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Old 04-13-2006, 03:39 PM   #26
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Perhaps Tolkien gave a clue to the tragic fate of the Entwives in an illustration he made for an earlier Middle-earth work:

http://groups.msn.com/TMESiteB/tolki...&PhotoID=2 89
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Old 04-13-2006, 03:46 PM   #27
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Lol!
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Old 04-15-2006, 09:55 AM   #28
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Im not saying every little detail is connected but is it possible that the three biggest mysteries(blue wizards, bombadil, entwives) are connected somehow if they are then how?
What a crazy RPG that would make!
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Old 11-24-2006, 02:36 PM   #29
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Sorry for dragging up what could be perceived as an old topic but I don't wish to create one of my own on this very subject. In regard to the Entwives I beleive that this Teleporno could have been on to something. Now, I'm not one to put words into the mouths of men who are no longer with us but I feel that the whole mystery of the Entwives becoming "lost" has some ultimate answer for us readers to uncover in regards to their fate. On a side note, has Teleporno ever posted about his theories on the Minas Tirith site?
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Old 11-24-2006, 04:28 PM   #30
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Tolkien

No, he did not.
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:57 AM   #31
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Figures doesn't it? But what if the Entwives were still in Fangorn? Maybe they themselves became "treeish"?
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Old 11-26-2006, 09:50 PM   #32
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Pipe

Then, surely Treebeard, master of Fangorn would have known this, and reported it to the hobbits, rather than asking if they knew of the Entwives.

Teleporno's idea that the location of the Entwives is encrypted somewhere within the second half of TTT is intriguing. Several posters here have stated that Tolkien did not engage in these kinds of easter egg hunts, but do we know that for sure? Especially in light of the following:
  • two of Bombadil's names, Forn and Orald, are possibly intentionally an anagram of "for Ronald" meaning for Tolkien, the author
  • Treebeard is a character based on CS Lewis
  • Beren and Lúthien are for Tolkien and his wife Edith
  • Smaug is a philological jest
And there are most likely others that I am not aware of... anyone care to add to the list?

IF (that's a big if) Tolkien did hide the location of the Entwives within the book, it is possible that he would have wished this to remain a secret to all but the careful literary detective, and this may be the reason he did not overtly state in Letters that the information was there. Particularly if he was lampooning suffragettes or others.

Of course, without Teleporno actually telling us where he thinks this information is, there is no way for us to debate whether he is onto something, or whether his love of the halflings' leaf has dulled his wits. I hope that he does at least think that he has found something; if he were trying to intentionally mislead us, that would be sad indeed...
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Old 11-27-2006, 07:15 AM   #33
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Indeed, could you perchance elaborate on your point about Smaug? It sounds intriguing.
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Old 11-27-2006, 07:53 AM   #34
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I believe that doug*platypus is referring to letter #25:
Quote:
The dragon bears as name - a pseudonym - the past tense of the primitive Germanic verb Smugan, to squeeze through a hole: a low philological jest.
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Old 11-27-2006, 01:41 PM   #35
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Ah, I see. Me and a friend are going to try and find where the Entwives are, I know, I know, better men than I have tried and failed but it is possibly the greatest mystery within the entire book. I'm really hoping to figure something out.
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Old 11-27-2006, 04:30 PM   #36
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White-Hand WARNING! Contains horror!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron
Ah, I see. Me and a friend are going to try and find where the Entwives are, I know, I know, better men than I have tried and failed but it is possibly the greatest mystery within the entire book. I'm really hoping to figure something out.
Good luck (you gonna need it...)

All I have to say is only that after reading this thread, the day before yesterday I had a terrible dream about how I was seeking for that place in the book and then I found it... but I don't remember where it was, only I know that it was the worst nightmare, I was sitting home reading it sentence by sentence, a long time I spent near the moments when Frodo&Sam meet Faramir's men (perhaps Sam used the Entwives to start the fire for their lunch?), when they were at the Crossroad (someone of you appeared near to me and shouted about how the Entwives crowned the king's head again - I think someone posted it here before), and when they entered Imlad Morgul (the Entwives have transformed into these little deadly flowers). Huh, that was terrible!
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:51 PM   #37
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I beleive the Entwives to hae been in the Shire after a rereading. They loved order and gardens.
Sounds like a hobbit type of mentality, okay, that's pretty tenuous but it's all I got.
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Old 12-23-2006, 01:48 PM   #38
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I just wanted to interject...

I think I've found what Teleporno is referring to. In the first few pages of Book 4 (chapter 1, like the first 5-8 pages of the book) Frodo and Sam are travelling through Emyn Muil (note the proximity of Emyn Muil to the Brown Lands, the last known domain of the entwives according to Treebeard) when they come upon ... well, here's the exerpt:

Quote:
The cleft was longer and deeper than it seemed. Some way down they found a few gnarled and stunted trees, the first they had seen for days: twisted birch for the most part, with here and there a fir-tree. Many were dead and gaunt, bitten to the core by the eastern winds. Once in milder days there must have been a fair thicket in the ravine, but now, after some fifty yards, the trees came to an end, though old broken stumps straggled on almost to the cliff's brink. The bottom of the gully, which lay along the edge of a rock-fault, was rough with broken stone and slanted steeply down. When they cam at last to the end of it, Frodo stopped and leaned out.
This is the only mention of trees in the second half of the two towers that might mean something to someone (that I could find, don't stop looking on my account), but does this mean we've found the entwives?

It does not mean that to me. I'll admit when I found this exerpt and looked up the proximity of Emyn Muil to the Brown Lands, there was a flicker of hope. But IMO Tolkien did not give enough evidence to support this theory, if this is what Teleporno intended. What it means to me, I think, is the extent of the entwives gardens were larger than we originally may have thought on first read. They are larger than just the Brown Lands (if it encompassed Emyn Muil as well), and who knows how far in any and all directions they reached?

And that's my two cents.

Last edited by will.r.french : 12-23-2006 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 12-23-2006, 02:00 PM   #39
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Bah! The same bit of conjecture was made by "Wetwang" on the minas tirith board. Looks like he beat me by 3 years, 10 months, and 18 days. The search continues, I suppose. Or languishes in obscurity, whichever your taste prefers.
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Old 12-23-2006, 07:11 PM   #40
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I think Teleporno was trying to wrile up the Tolkien community and see how long it would last. Because he said he was taking it to the Tolkien Society to see if they would agree with him, and that was several years ago.
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