WWJ X: Hithlum Zydeco Blues; Hísilómë in Hísimë

[Roa_Aoife]

I've heard some whining that I didn't do myself any favours by waiting so long reveal my seerness- but the fact is that until the last minute (which is when I posted in revelation) I hoped to survive the Night.

Actually given that we didn't have a ranger, I wasn't surprised that you kept your reveal to the last minute. Maybe you idn't help yourself by not revealing, but you certainly wouldn't have helped yourself by revealing any sooner. We had you either way. :p Though, honestly, I thought you were just an easy lynch. i had no idea you were the gifted until I logged back on several hours after the deadline and read through the rest of the Day. There was even some discussion amongst us the following night that you were possibly bluffing to keep yourself alive and draw fire from the actual seer. Not so badly done, in regards to hiding your identity.

But surely - as I said in the end - Roa secured her evil kill at the last minutes. She probably had written that nicely in advance and then just waited for the tactically right moment to throw it in so that the last possibly wawering voters would go her way. That's one of the reasons I admire her gaming. She's an overkill!

Actually, no, I posted as soon as I had it done. Same in regards to my case against you. I really have been busy, and I swear, I clocked out as soon as I said I did. Lucky for me, the whole village was quiet. (Really, I hate quiet villages, even as a wolf. There's hardly any challenge in swaying the vote, as I demonstrated.) Thanks for the compliment, though. Bold is beautiful!

One thing I also am a bit baffled about was the consensus of me being suspicious. Forgive me, but would a wolf play like that?

Why not? It's what I do. :D

Maybe next time I try the under-radar stuff? (probably get killed on Day1 just for that reason...)

I'll try to get lynched no matter how you play, if that's any comfort. *bats eyes*

Being the seer can be tricky because you must be moderately suspicious but not enough to get you killed. I wasn't going to be lynched in one game but the problem was that our hunter thought I was guilty enough to kill me

Don't sweat that. Aside from LMP's super hunter in deuling wizards and Lomgrod's logical hunter in psychotic penguins, I believe the sole purpose of the hunter is to kill the seer. Find a hunter that hasn't, and I'll personally congratulate them (it doesn't count if they didn't die, or if the seer died before they did, though.)

[Nogrod]

Could it be more anemic? People don't participate in the game, don't want to get involved in the game (but just to lynch those who would involved themselves) and don't bother to discuss it afterwards?

Then with a pretty small village they have three werewolves and lose in straight Days just because of not trying. And people don't even bother to complain! Yeah, that's life. No can do...

Thanks Valesse for trying, but this village seemed to have been dead even before it started? :rolleyes:

Bad luck - or something else...

[Macalaure]

Since this was only my second game I didn't dare to really complain, but now that you ask for it...

The first problem was, of course, that it was a very small village. Three lynchings go the wrong way and that was it. But that was the challenge of this game.

Then we had quite bold wolves. All of them got involved in the Day1-bandwaggons and Roa and Kitanna ruth- and fearlessly fueled the lynching of Nogrod on Day2.

Apart from Nogrod, there were no bold innocents against them. It is sad, that most other innocents thought im guilty because of this or didn't care about it.
And then, a lot of things went wrong. We lost the seer in Night1, known innocent Mormegil wasn't able to contribute a lot on Day2 and Eomer attracted almost all suspicion to him on Day3.


Really, I hate quiet villages, even as a wolf. There's hardly any challenge in swaying the vote, as I demonstrated.And that really says it all. Shame on us.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maybe we're playing too many games. :rolleyes:

[mormegil]

Then we had quite bold wolves.

Why is that a problem?

known innocent Mormegil wasn't able to contribute a lot on Day2

A better statement would be: Mormegil's contributions weren't heeded on Day 2. Remember I voted Valier and suspected Roa next right after her. I also thought Nogrod innocent and told you to listen to him about Kitanna. :rolleyes:

[Macalaure]

Bold wolves aren't necessarily a problem, of course. But this time, without a bold innocent to withstand them left, we were easy prey. Maybe we didn't make up enough of our own thoughts as well and too many of us went with those whose words sounded most fair - or convenient.


A better statement would be: Mormegil's contributions weren't heeded on Day 2.You're probably right. I think many of us forgot your statements by the time the debate got more heated and the deadline moved near (our fault, once more). I should have said "known innocent Mormegil wasn't able to contribute as much as he would have wanted". I guess you would have had a word or two about the course the arguments of that Day went. I'm not blaming you, of course, but your opinions at that particular time might have been crucial.

[Roa_Aoife]

Just to drive the point home, Naria, who wasn't even participating in the game, had me pegged on Day 2. Why? Because I completely made up the case against Nogrod, and he and Jenny were the only ones that caught it. I had a busy week and didn't have the time to go against someone with a thorough case up until the last few minutes of the game with Eomer. (I didn't make stuff up on that one, though.)

Personally, I was glad no one listened to morm. If he had come up with a more reasonable case than "I suspect these people," (what was your case against Valier?) then he might have been more successful. Part of the reason I started the debate with Nogrod was to drive attention that way instead of with the known innocent. And with everyone so quiet and Nogrod and Eomer going right in, it wasn't difficult.

And to all you people who think summaries and analysis are pointless and unhelpful, look at the power they have, or could have had. I believe the only one who did analysis at all was Jenny, and they were all but ignored! Yes, it takes some effort to go through everyone's posts, firgure out what they're really saying, put it all in order next to each other so as to see the discrepencies, and come to conclusions based on those, but really it's worth it. and sure, it may take a little extra reading time to go through someone else's analysis and determine if it's fair/accurate or not. I've used it as both an innocent catching wolves (from my very first game where I used it to catch Valier to my last game as an innocent where it caught Boromir on Day 1 *sticks tongue out at Form*) and as a wolf misdirecting innocents (really, everywhere- look.)

[Roa_Aoife]

Quote:
Then we had quite bold wolves.


Why is that a problem?

Normally, it's no more of a problem than any other wolves, but in a quiet village, the wolves can either quietly go along with out being noticed, or they can be bold and gain complete control of the village. The later was the case here. By the end of Day 2, we were driving the vote any which way we wanted, and the only people who challenged us got lynched. As powerful as we were, it was really over at that point.

[Nogrod]

Normally, it's no more of a problem than any other wolves, but in a quiet village, the wolves can either quietly go along with out being noticed, or they can be bold and gain complete control of the village. The later was the case here. By the end of Day 2, we were driving the vote any which way we wanted, and the only people who challenged us got lynched. As powerful as we were, it was really over at that point.

Bold wolves aren't necessarily a problem, of course. But this time, without a bold innocent to withstand them left, we were easy prey. Maybe we didn't make up enough of our own thoughts as well and too many of us went with those whose words sounded most fair - or convenient.
I think that was exactly the problem. Most of the villagers were just pleased to hunker down, not to get their own necks in the open and thence the village lost. I agree with both Roa and Macalaure here. Conveniently securing one's own butt is not always the way to victory - it never is. :rolleyes:

Bad game, sorry to say this. Some people tried, too many didn't.

[Mithalwen]

Some of us tried our best. Obviously it wasn't good enough but people who live in glass houses.....

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I didn't do as much as I could have done but I had a lot of other, more pressing, matters to attend to last week. I certainly wasn't free enough to get obsessed by the game. I think we must always bear* in mind that it's just a game and we should try to put having fun ahead of meticulously getting everything right.

*used the right one this time. :p

[Mithalwen]

I didn't do as much as I could have done but I had a lot of other, more pressing, matters to attend to last week. I certainly wasn't free enough to get obsessed by the game. I think we must always bear* in mind that it's just a game and we should try to put having fun ahead of meticulously getting everything right.

*used the right one this time. :p


Oh Eomer..you are no fun anymore ... :(

[Diamond18]

Eomer speaks sense. :) I followed this whole game though I didn't play in it, and I didn't play because I knew I wouldn't have the time to throw myself completely into it, and I knew that if I didn't, I would spend most of my available time defending myself for not being able to throw myself completely into it. Werewolf these days seems to be getting more and more about grading other people's playing until it's not fun anymore -- the fear of being deemed stupid, useless, lazy, or reprehensible because you can't live up to other people's exacting standards overrides any enjoyment. So I've decided it's better not to play at all if I don't have the time to be (or inclination to reject real life in favor of) totally immersing myself. And that's sad, because I really have had fun with Werewolf.

[Roa_Aoife]

I didn't do as much as I could have done but I had a lot of other, more pressing, matters to attend to last week. I certainly wasn't free enough to get obsessed by the game. I think we must always bear* in mind that it's just a game and we should try to put having fun ahead of meticulously getting everything right.

Check my post count- I was barely around at all, especially compared to my other games, where I usually compete with Nogrod and Lommy for highest post count. I spent the whole week moving into a new apartment, job hunting, helping my fiance with his new job, and planning a wedding. ON TOP OF SCHOOL. Yet I was still one of the most vocal people in the game.

I followed this whole game though I didn't play in it, and I didn't play because I knew I wouldn't have the time to throw myself completely into it, and I knew that if I didn't, I would spend most of my available time defending myself for not being able to throw myself completely into it. Werewolf these days seems to be getting more and more about grading other people's playing until it's not fun anymore -- the fear of being deemed stupid, useless, lazy, or reprehensible because you can't live up to other people's exacting standards overrides any enjoyment. So I've decided it's better not to play at all if I don't have the time to be (or inclination to reject real life in favor of) totally immersing myself. And that's sad, because I really have had fun with Werewolf.

No one here has said stupid, useless, or lazy. (well, except Nogrod, but how is that any different than the norm?) It's not about grading. It's constructive criticism, something that you've never seemed to be able to take. What's the point of this whole post-game discussion, if not to point out what went right and what went wrong? What would you prefer we do with it? Give hollow two-faced compliments for the sake of politeness? We aren't little kids. (Most of us.) We are, for the most part, adults or young adults who should be able to handle someone pointing out that they didn't do as well as they could.

And I believe you've heard me say this many times before- if you don't think you'll be able to give the necessary time to the game, don't sign up. It's not about wether or not you want to have fun or not get accused of not participating, it's about consideration for your fellow players, and wether or not your going to give them a good game. The measure of a game is only partly the mod's responsibility. The rest is our own doing.

Everyone in this game is known, to me at least, as a very good werewolf player, with great skill. We are all highly intelligent people, capable of great games. This game we were all under par. We've all done better than this in the past. When that happens, the best thing you can do is to look for what went wrong, and decide how you can do better next time, instead of whining about how harsh we're being.

[Diamond18]

My point was that it's just a game and if you take it too seriously you zap a bit of the fun out of it for the people around you. Then it's no longer a game, it's something altogether less "fun and games" and more "this will be going on your transcript and/or résumé."

Hey, you win some, you lose some. In some games people are really "on" and others they're not. Sometimes the village wins and sometimes the wolves win. I can understand Nogrod's frustration (even though I think the attempt to send everyone on guilt-trips is quite over the top) as he was on the losing team but you could at least accept your win with a positive attitude instead of complaining that it was too easy.

Anyway, you completely missed my point, it isn't about constructive critiscm vs. hollow compliments, it's about stopping to realize when in life these things actually matter enough to keep going at them like a dog with a bone. There's a difference between realizing where people won or lost games (whichever side they're on) and complaining about it at length. I was just reacting to the decidedly whiney or condeming tone to many of the posts, and I thought that someone who didn't play in this particular game could stand up for the idea that losing (or winning too easily) isn't the end of the world.


And I believe you've heard me say this many times before- if you don't think you'll be able to give the necessary time to the game, don't sign up. It's not about wether or not you want to have fun or not get accused of not participating, it's about consideration for your fellow players, and wether or not your going to give them a good game.

This game had trouble gaining players. Many people signed up because they were asked to. I mean, people were being PMed to join, me included, and I felt really bad about declining. But you can't tell people that if they're not prepared to satisfy you, they shouldn't play, unless you are the mod.


It's constructive criticism, something that you've never seemed to be able to take.

:rolleyes: Yes, Roa, because you've seen me in life, with school, work, etc. No. You've seen me playing an internet game. A bit of fun and recreation. I just don't like flagellation with my fun, and I'm not the only one around here who feels that way.

[Formendacil]

Okay, I think we're all aware of the Diamond/Roa vendetta regarding WW playing styles... so enough out of you two. Let someone else do the arguing. :p

Though I admit the validity of Roa's arguments, and can see where she's coming from, I definitely come down on Diamond's side of the argument. I am going to be online at A,B, and C times of day, and I'll do what I can during those times, and I'll make sure I vote (well, except for that one moment of lapsed memory during Cailin's game, after which I was killed by Jenny anyway...). I'm not going to play by anybody's conventions, but what the rules require and I myself stipulate.

You guys wonder why I go on and on about Day 1s? My post back there ingame- the one in which I was accused of backpedalling my first post's statements- was perfectly true to life.

And I DO largely do it to tweak people's noses. You tell me how to play, and I'm going to ignore you. I've been Werewolfing long enough that I think I know how the game's played. And if I die on Day 1 or so... well that's REALLY disappointing, but I'll take it in stride, 'cause I sure ain't changing my style just to suit you lot.

And changing my style would be equally suspicious anyway... :rolleyes:

Seriously, no matter what you do... there's going to be a winner and a loser. (Well, except in my game....)

And to expect the same commitment from every player, every time is just... foolish. It's summer, people have lives. I suspect if you look at WW VII, or other games from last summer, you won't see "Duelling Wizards" levels of intensity.

[Macalaure]

I really don't see what the current quarrel is about.

Of course, playing Werewolf is about fun.

But, of course, as it is with any other game as well, playing is most fun if everybody is trying to play at their best.

And, of course, as soon as it is only about playing the best one can, the fun goes down.
The truth is somewhere in between. I think this is quite common sense, after all.


And Diamond, Nogrod is not trying to send us on guilt-trips (at least this is how I understand it). Almost everybody wasn't playing at or near his/her best, and he was a little disgruntled that nobody actually discussed why this was the case and everybody just accepted it.

[JennyHallu]

Hey, peeps...

I really don't like the implication that the villagers didn't put into the game everything we should. Sometimes, Noggie, the wolves win, and are better than us, and manipulate us. It happens. Life is a straw--suck it up!

And hear, hear, Diamond! I'm about fed up with all the people who take this game so seriously. I'm especially fed up with all the ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with others on how the game ought to be played.

[mormegil]

Hey Valesse thanks for a wonderful game. I had fun. :)

[Kitanna]

Indeed, this whole post-game conversation is a waste. I had fun even if others think not enough effort has been put forward. But if this is how WW games are going to be from now on, I think I'll retire from them.

Thanks Valesse for a fun and enjoyable game, your modding was excellent. And thank you Diamond for your insight.

[Nogrod]

Sorry. I may have expressed myself badly or given bad impressions. Surely I have not intended to pick up on anyone ar anything like that. If I have, I'm very sorry. That has not been intended.

Yes. I had fun (especially on Day2). If I wouldn't have fun playing WW, I wouldn't play.

Also having fun is the reason to play, not winning. That I have voiced many times here. I'll be much more satisfied with a great and lost game than with a bad but won one. (That's one of the reasons I disapprove the playing-style of one post/Day. It's quite easy to survive a long time with that style, but is it fun to anyone? It seems more like a calculated style to win, not an effort to actually play)

The wolves outwitted the village left-handedly this time around. They played really well. We villagers weren't that good here. Yeah, that happens.

[Roa_Aoife]

This game had trouble gaining players. Many people signed up because they were asked to. I mean, people were being PMed to join, me included, and I felt really bad about declining. But you can't tell people that if they're not prepared to satisfy you, they shouldn't play, unless you are the mod.

It's not about me, it's about everyone. I want Werewolf to be fun as much as everyone else does. Did I have fun this game? No,. and it had nothing to do with Valesse. I played horribly. I was so off my game this time that I thought I would be an easy lynch. I am terribly apologetic about it, becuase it's not fair to the other people who were trying to have a good game.

Were we going on and on about something? I don't think so. Three people chimed in with their opinion of the whole thing, and suddenly we're putting everyone down, and making it un-fun, and being totally unfair. Well, you may resent me for saying we didn't do very well this game, but I can be equally resentful for being attacked and accused of being selfish and domineering everytime I try to be helpful about pointing out what went wrong and how we can do better next time. I notice that no one has actually made a point against Nogrod's, Mac's and my statements, except to say that they were busy. Well, guess what? We're all busy. Some of more than others. I've stated already that I was exceptionally busy this game. But I made time for it out of respect for you people. Is it really too much to expect a reciprocal?

[The Saucepan Man]

This post is not intended as a personal criticism of either Nogrod or Roa. The points made below are applicable equally to others, I am sure. But some of the comments made by them above are illustrative, I think, of where the current problems may have arisen, at least in part.

I would also note that matters have not been helped by what I consider to be an overreaction to some of the earlier comments made on this thread. There is a responsibility on both sides of this debate to keep things civil and avoid personal comment.

Also having fun is the reason to play, not winning. That I have voiced many times here. I'll be much more satisfied with a great and lost game than with a bad but won one. (That's one of the reasons I disapprove the playing-style of one post/Day. It's quite easy to survive a long time with that style, but is it fun to anyone? It seems more like a calculated style to win, not an effort to actually play)OK. Two things.

First, what is a great game? What may be a great game for you might be a bad game for someone else. And vice versa. I think that one of the problems that has arisen here is the attempt to define the quality of a game by reference to the way in which either you or others have played. All games are unique. All have particular points of interest. I think that it is best to avoid seeking to lay the blame anywhere (whether on yourself or others) if you personally did not enjoy a game.

Secondly, it may be a language issue, but expressing disapproval of a particular playing style suggests that it is somehow "wrong" or "bad" on an objective basis. Fine if you subjectively dislike a particular playing style, just like Form dislikes Day 1s. We can all have different opinions about that. But there is no "approved" or "unapproved" playing style. All are fine, provided that the minimum commitment requirements are met.

Three people chimed in with their opinion of the whole thing, and suddenly we're putting everyone down, and making it un-fun, and being totally unfair.I see no problem with expressing opinions, provided that they do not stray into the area of personal criticism. That, I think, is where things have gone slightly awry here. I am afraid that your comments about Diamond being unable to take constructive criticism are, I think, an example of this, Roa.

Well, you may resent me for saying we didn't do very well this game, but I can be equally resentful for being attacked and accused of being selfish and domineering everytime I try to be helpful about pointing out what went wrong and how we can do better next time.Again, nothing wrong with discussing differing approaches to Werewolf games and debating the merits of particular tactics or playing styles. But when the tone adopted is akin to a lecture from those who give the impression of “knowing best”, which I think it has to a degree on this thread, then people are bound to react badly. As I have stated elsewhere, the game is supposed to be fun. It is not a piece of work or an examination, in which people require coaching or tutoring, or on which they are to be graded. And, if people prefer to do things differently to you, then that is their right. It should not be a matter of criticism, although it can quite validly be a matter for civil and respectful debate.

Well, guess what? We're all busy. Some of more than others. I've stated already that I was exceptionally busy this game. But I made time for it out of respect for you people. Is it really too much to expect a reciprocal?Yes, I think it is. As I have also stated elsewhere, there is a minimum level of commitment required for a Werewolf game. Anything above that is down to the individual, whether that be a matter of tactics, real life issues or simple playing style. Personally, I find it difficult to play Werewolf without becoming totally engrossed in it, even when I am busy in real life. That’s me. If others are happy to play without the same level of involvement, then that’s fine by me (although I reserve the right to use it for tactical purposes, within the context of the game itself, where appropriate).

OK. I have said my piece.

I will re-open this thread, but ask that any further comments be directed towards the game in question and that they be made in the spirit of civil and constructive debate.

The points made above give rise to general issues which I am happy to discuss further on the Tol-in-Gaurhoth admin thread. Again, though, I would counsel that all who participate do so in a civil and respectful manner.