"My friends, you bow to no one"

[_00_deathscar]

Hi folks I'm new here.

For my first post, let me start off by saying (not sure if it's been mentioned at all on this forum previously, but I have been browsing it for a week or so), that one of the best bits that Peter Jackson did for the movie which 'trumped' the book was the bit where the hobbits are about to bow down to Aragorn and Arwen and the King stops them and says, "My friends, you bow to no one," and bows down himself - the others at the ceremony follow suit.

Very touching I felt.

[Anguirel]

I imagine I'll be in a small minority when I comment that I didn't really like this at all.

I could have just put up with it if it had been in the book, but it felt like an added, gratuitous feelgood moment. Like the excruciating bedroom scene with everyone laughing and crying and kissing and cuddling.

(Merry comes in.)

Frodo: Merryyyy!!!

(Gandalf comes in.)

Frodo: Gandalfff!!!

(Legolas comes in.)

Frodo: Legolas!!!!!

(Eomer comes in.)

Frodo: Er...who are you?

(Beregond, Imrahil, Glorfindel and Halbarad saunter in.)

Frodo: And who in Arda are you?

Chorus of cut characters: We will have our vengeance...hack, slash, hack...

Anyway, yup, I didn't like the bowing; it seemed superfluous, anachronistic, pseudo-democratic. Bad fanfic.

EDIT: Oh and welcome to the Downs deathscar.

[Folwren]

Gosh, Anguirel, that wasn't a very kind welcome. ;)

That part in the movie was fair enough. Although it didn't move me to tears, it did some of my friends (much to my astonishment). I thought it was sweet, but never to the point of tears. It was a good touch, seeing what the hobbits did. In reality, Merry and Pippin didn't necessarily deserve it, but Frodo and Sam did. It would have been better still if Pippin and Merry and bowed, I think. But then Frodo and Sam would have felt really awkward. . .

Yes, welcome to the 'Downs. Hope you have fun.

-- Folwren

[Glirdan]

I must agree that it was a rather toughing moment, but I must also agree with Folwren that in reality, Merry and Pippin should be bowing as well because then it would have shown everyone who really saved Middle-Earth. But I believe, Folwren, that PJ had all four Hobbits to show that their race isn't as weak as was first thought, and for that matter, a legend. It shows us as the viewers that even the small can be powerful.

And welcome to the Down's Deathscar. :D

[alatar]

Have to agree with the those 'agreers' here. Would have been nice if Merry and Pippin were included in the act of respect, but I can see why PJ allows them to stand:

I guess that Pip feels worthy as he was able to trick an Ent into attacking Isengard, plus he lit the beacons which brought the Rohirrim to the Pelennor Fields. Truly heroic feats, to be sure. Merry helped kill the Witch-King, and that rates him over Gandalf, who was 'proned' by the King of the Nazgul. Plus he was able to ride from Dunharrow to Mundburg completely unnoticed, and this cone of invisibility was extended to Eowyn as well.

Welcome, deathscar. Just so you know, my keyboard habitually gets stuck in 'sarcasm' mode ;).

[_00_deathscar]

Thanks for the warm welcome folks.

The way I saw it, the rest were bowing down to Pippin and Merry, because they had as much to owe to them (for reasons you mentioned) and for the fact that this tiny race of hobbits ("they would only be children to your eyes") were so courageous and brave and "had stout hearts" and changed the world for a better course.

Whereas the race of men needed encouraging from the Return of the King.

I thought it was a nice touch personally, and definitely though it was something the book would've been better with.

I also personally didn't like the Scourging of the Shire in the book, and was glad PJ left it out.

The voice over by Frodo at the end (upon his return to the Shire) is also spine-tingling, the bit where he starts off "How do you pick up the threads of an old life...".


I will agree with you however, when you say the bed-happy scene was completely overdone.

[ninja91]

I cant stand when Eowyn screams during the charge of the Rohirrim during the battle of Pelennor Fields. The scene is one of the most powerful in the movie, but then it is ruined by Eowyn's dorky battle cry.

[MatthewM]

I cant stand when Eowyn screams during the charge of the Rohirrim during the battle of Pelennor Fields. The scene is one of the most powerful in the movie, but then it is ruined by Eowyn's dorky battle cry.

WHAT?! I must vehemently 100% disagree with you. That is one of my favorite parts! Eowyn and Merry's cry add to the emotion! Everyone has thier own opinion, but I never thought I'd see somebody say that.

Back to the topic though, I think Merry and Pippin deserve just as much bowing as Frodo and Sam! As a previous poster noted, Merry helped kill one of Mordor's most opposing forces in The Witch-King, Pippin saved Faramir, and both aided in the rousing of the Ents, as well as outsmarting the band of Orcs that had captured them long enough for the Rohirrim to come in and do their thing. They didn't go to Mt. Doom, but they still deserve to be bowed to.

[Formendacil]

Allow me to courteously disagree with all the agreers here... and to agree with Anguirel. I hate that scene... almost as much as the "bedroom" (to put an inappropiate innuendo on it) scene. It feels, as Anguirel said, rather "superfluous, anakronistic, and pseudo-democratic". None of which is complimentary, by the way.

On the other hand, I have to agree with MatthewM that Eowyn and Merry's battle-cry agrees with me... Generally, when going into battle, a battle-cry is to be expected.

Though precisely what it has to do with the bowing topic... I'm not sure.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I don't like the scene, but it is because I find it very unconvinsing. It seems fake! It is one of those scenes that are supposed to be realy touching, but all it does for me is make me want to vomit.

[MatthewM]

Just to add, I actually liked the scene. I thought it was moving and showed full development of friendship between the hobbits and Aragorn.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I just want to add, that I like the intend of the scene, but I just don't think that they make it work.

[MatthewM]

I think it works, but everyone is going to have their own opinion. I love the whole coronation scene.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

It's a beautiful moment, capped perfectly by Howard Shore's score stringing the Shire theme. I don't cry at movies, but that's the first time ever where I wanted to.

I agree that Merry and Pippin shouldn't be placed on the same level as Frodo and Sam, but you have to admit that, in both the book and the movie, the Quest likely would have failed without them. Or at the least, Minas Tirith would have fallen. But that's another thread for another time. ;)

[Gurthang]

Well, I rather liked the scene. Actually, I liked it quite a bit. Except for Pippin's face. I always laugh at that, because it's the funniest possible face for that serious moment. :D Which means it's rather out of place in the scene.

But I really liked the scene, mainly because it shows that Aragorn, who had just been crowned King, was still the noble, humble person they had come to know. I think it fits better with his character to give credit to others when it is due. He himself did deserve a lot of credit, which he received (he was just crowned King after all!), but he makes sure that the other key players are not left out.

The fact that Merry and Pippin are left in the shot was good, too. It says to me that, even though they were forced apart and went down different paths, they (the four) are still the closest friends through it all. Very touching indeed.

Also, I think it's very fitting that the hobbits get their moment to "stand above" everyone else before "shrinking" back into memory and legend. :D

[Sir Kohran]

Well, I rather liked the scene. Actually, I liked it quite a bit. Except for Pippin's face. I always laugh at that, because it's the funniest possible face for that serious moment. :D Which means it's rather out of place in the scene.

But I really liked the scene, mainly because it shows that Aragorn, who had just been crowned King, was still the noble, humble person they had come to know. I think it fits better with his character to give credit to others when it is due. He himself did deserve a lot of credit, which he received (he was just crowned King after all!), but he makes sure that the other key players are not left out.

The fact that Merry and Pippin are left in the shot was good, too. It says to me that, even though they were forced apart and went down different paths, they (the four) are still the closest friends through it all. Very touching indeed.

Also, I think it's very fitting that the hobbits get their moment to "stand above" everyone else before "shrinking" back into memory and legend. :D


Excellent thoughts there, Gurthang.

I like your words on how Aragorn makes sure everyone gets credit - it ties in with his speech: 'This day does not belong to one Man, but to all...' Good to see that Jackson got a message like that across.

And yes, this is a fantastic moment in the film - alongside Gandalf's speech on death to Pippin during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and Frodo and Sam's nostalgic remembrance of the Shire after the Ring is destroyed, it's the most emotional part of ROTK for me. We spend so much of the time in awe at Aragorn's heroics, Legolas's stunts, Gimli's bufoonery, Arwen's looks, etc. that to see them all bow before the real heroes - the modest Hobbits we began with - is really an excellent reminder of who has accomplished most in this story.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

A reason I liked this scene was because I also felt a little bit of Sam's "great stories", sort of like in Book!RotK, with "Nine-Fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom". At the end of Movie!TTT, Sam and Frodo were talking about the legends, the "great stories", of the hobbits, and the possibility of them being in those stories someday. Then, in the RotK "You bow to no man" scene, I saw awe in Sam's face, because he knew that he would be a legend to Men and Hobbits.

P.S. Yes, Anguirel, that bedroom scene felt squirmingly like... um... fanfic.

[MatthewM]

Just to let you all know, not like it would shift any opinions, but Sean Astin himself said today that this part makes him cry most.

[Anguirel]

Excellent. All the more reason to lambast it!

[Diamond18]

That bit seemed overly corny to me. I don't necessarily dislike it, but it did seem like a rather "Hallmark" thing for Aragorn to say. Maybe it was just Viggo Mortenson's delivery.

Well, I rather liked the scene. Actually, I liked it quite a bit. Except for Pippin's face. I always laugh at that, because it's the funniest possible face for that serious moment. :D Which means it's rather out of place in the scene.

Actually, I thought the hobbit's expressions were the best part about the scene. They were all so in character.

(This can be roughly translated into -- "Darest thou to speak ill of my lord Peregrin? Avast, ye scurvy fool of a knave! Take it back, take it back, I say!")

PS -- Welcome, Deathscar. And just so you know, Ang is fanatically opposed to Sam and even wrote this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12936) about him. That should clear some things up. :D

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think that the thing I realy dislike about the scene, is that it seems like one of those honny-sweet endings that I despise Hollywood for! Way to many endings has to be oh so touching, a disney moment if you like. . . I have seen many a film wich I find very good until the last 10-30 min. Then they just turn into this: The good always prevail and our heroe must have a happy ending theme and it annoys me alot. I don't dislike happy endings, but they are not a must.

I know that this scene is not the real ending, but it is when the major plot is over and you just need to finnish and pick up the last loose ends. The scene seems like a vulgar attempt to rise emotions within the audience, emotions that should be easy to get with more subtle methods.

[MatthewM]

Excellent. All the more reason to lambast it!

Someone is sour and afraid to admit they like the scene...

[Essex]

Back after a break.....

Just to remind those who may have forgotten, but this scene (one of my favoruites in the whole trilogy and made me burst into tears) is loosely based on Aragorn kneeling to the Hobbits at Cormallen.

And so the red blood blushing in their faces and their eyes shining with wonder, Frodo and Sam went forward and saw that amidst the clamorous host were set three high-seats built of green turves. Behind the seat upon the right floated, white on green, a great horse running free; upon the left was a banner, silver upon blue, a ship swan-prowed faring on the sea; but behind the highest throne in the midst of all a great standard was spread in the breeze, and there a white tree flowered upon a sable field beneath a shining crown and seven glittering stars. On the throne sat a mail-clad man, a great sword was laid across his knees, but he wore no helm. As they drew near he rose. And then they knew him, changed as he was, so high and glad of face, kingly, lord of Men, dark-haired with eyes of grey.
Frodo ran to meet him, and Sam followed close behind. 'Well, if that isn't the crown of all!' he said. 'Strider, or I'm still asleep!'
'Yes, Sam, Strider,' said Aragorn. 'It is a long way, is it not, from Bree, where you did not like the look of me? A long way for us all but yours has been the darkest road.'
And then to Sam's surprise and utter confusion he bowed his knee before them; and taking them by the hand, Frodo upon his right and Sam upon his left, he led them to the throne, and setting them upon it, he turned to the men and captains who stood by and spoke, so that his voice rang over all the host, crying:
'Praise them with great praise!'

So Jackson's take on it is not much different - I admit Merry and Pippin should not be included to make the scene closer to the book, but I can live with that.

So to say it is superfluous or honey sweet then we must include Tolkien's work itself in this criticism.....

This scene in the book is one of my favourites - that a king will bow down before two 'lowly' hobbits (and actually seat them on his throne!!!!) shows the mark of the man, and his heartfelt gratitude to his friends. I gush with pride for Frodo and Sam when I read this scene every time. And I was so glad that Jackson paid homage to it in his scene, which was beautifully done.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

So to say it is superfluous or honey sweet then we must include Tolkien's work itself in this criticism.....

Not necesarily. You can watch a scene from a movie, who is identical to what is written in a book and still they have a very different influence on you. . .
When reading the passage you highligted, I did not feel it was to honey sweet, but it did not move me either. Still when I see that "bowing scene" I think it is awful. . .

[Essex]

When reading the passage you highligted, I did not feel it was to honey sweet, but it did not move me either. Then I must pity you as you sound like not much could "move" you then!

The "common man" has succeeded and saved the World. We have lived and breathed through thick and thin with these characters, esp. Frodo and Sam - we've gone to the brink of Death and Disaster with them - We stood by Frodo at the Cracks of Doom as he nearly threw the Quest away - but his compassion for Gollum redeemed him and they saved Middle-earth in the end.....

Now we move onto the field of Cormallen. Our protagonists have completed their quest - they find their kindred and friends alive, and are greeted by a friend who is now King of all the Western lands and he bows to them and orders all his kindred to Praise them.

This seems very moving to me...............


PS let's compare the two scenes in a nutshell

Movie - "My friends, you bow to no-one" and Aragorn and all Kneel down

Book - "Praise them with great praise" as Aragorn Kneels and sits them on his throne.

They seem very simillar to me - one works well on paper and the other on celluloid. Neither seems crass or honey sweet to me. What I'm saying is that if one criticises the movie, one must criticise the novel too.......

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

What I'm saying is that if one criticises the movie, one must criticise the novel too.......

and i disagree. . . It is not everything that works well in writing that automaticaly works well in a movie. So when I criticise a movie, that does not mean that I criticies the book.

[calandil]

it was a nice touch t the whole things,imagine these blokes who have never been out of the shire before being respected by all the lords and ladies of middle-earth

[Lalaith]

Praising the Ringbearers with great praise is fine. Bowing to all four hobbits is not. Pippin and Merry were vital members of the Fellowship, yes, but so was Aragorn himself, and the rest of them. Carrying the One Ring was a particular, specific and unique burden, and it was for that Frodo and Sam were being singled out and honoured.

But the bed-scene was far worse, makes any sensible adult viewer want to stare at their feet with embarrassment. Mostly because of the expression on Elijah Wood's face: he is not a good enough actor to carry off such a potentially ludicrous situation with any sense of innocence or dignity.

[Essex]

I think Elijah's acting was excellent.

And yes the bed scene was a bit 'schmultsy' - but I think its a fair eonough scene for Frodo - he thought most of his friends were dead, so why can't he be happy? And the look between Frodo and Sam was beautiful.

Across the whole trilogy, jackson has got his actors giving so much, just by a look and an expression - he really got as much as possible out of the characters in this way, and all (in my opinion) did a really good job.

[Rikae]

Essex, I'm glad you mentioned the scene from the book. I knew there was something similar, but I couldn't remember what.
I'll have to forego the elevated status that cynicism gives & admit that I loved the bowing scene, and yes, I even got teary-eyed the first time I watched it. I hate superfluous "feel good" scenes as much as anyone, but I can't count this scene among them. I suppose much of the credit for that goes not to Jackson, but to Tolkien for crafting the story which led up to it. The scene is not (in my opinion) over-the-top because the pain and darkness that precede it are so intense, and after following Sam & Frodo on such a harrowing journey the honor seems, if anything, less than what they deserve. At the same time, knowing how humble the hobbits have always been it's obvious that they don't see it that way. Still, I can't really understand the inclusion of Merry and Pippin either, but it somehow felt right to see them standing with Frodo & Sam.

As for the :rolleyes: bedroom scene...
I saw a video clip of it before actually watching the movie, and I thought it was a spoof. Slow motion? Gandalf cackling like a maniac? The unavoidable "orgy" analogy? I can't imagine what possessed PJ...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

As for the bedroom scene...
I saw a video clip of it before actually watching the movie, and I thought it was a spoof. Slow motion? Gandalf cackling like a maniac? The unavoidable "orgy" analogy? I can't imagine what possessed PJ...

Have you seen some of PJ's previous movies?

I think we should count our self lucky, with this being one of the worst scenes in the movie. . . :D :p

[Rikae]

Have you seen some of PJ's previous movies?

I think we should count our self lucky, with this being one of the worst scenes in the movie. . . :D :p
Good point ...
The fellowship could have entered the room by emerging from the worst possible part of a cave-troll, brandishing chainsaws.
:eek:

[ArathorofBarahir]

I loved this addition to the movie! I feel that the hobbits would and could have been overlooked since not very many people knew what their mission was. I felt that that having Aragorn and all of Minas Tirith bowing to them was a way of saying that the little people of the world have sacrificed just as much if not more as the big people in the world.

[Celegost]

I think this is a really good scene, unlike the one where Frodo is in bed. That's just too wierd (what the heck are Merry and Pippin doing in the background? They start jumping up and down and pulling faces like idiots; I thought at the end they were supposed to have grown up?) :confused:

[Sauron the White]

Thought the bowing scene at the coronation was fine and worked well. It is not one of my absolute fave scenes - but I certainly have no objections to it. Thanks to Essex for giving us the text to show that Jackson was not far off with his depiction of it.

That jumping into the bed scene at the end always struck me as just plain goofy. Perhaps Jackson and the writers wanted to introduce some goofiness into the mix after all that heavy drama with putting the main characters near death for so long. But its still goofy.

[Precioussss]

I agree with ninja91 in that Eowyn and the battle cry thing was dorky. I actually laughed a little.

In the book it's really sweet how Sam and Frodo meet Merry and Pippin at the supper, and I think that should have been included in the movie. The bedroom scene was a little much.

And even though Aragorn's last line may suit (I still think it's a little lame) the hobbits (along with everyone else) should still be bowing to him. He is the king, and without him they would most certainly have been dead and Sauron would have won.

That's just my opinion. I was disappointed in this movie, so I guess I'm a litttle biased already.

[Sir Kohran]

And even though Aragorn's last line may suit (I still think it's a little lame) the hobbits (along with everyone else) should still be bowing to him. He is the king, and without him they would most certainly have been dead and Sauron would have won.

Um...they did bow to him when he first approached them. That's when he says "My friends, you bow to no-one." And bows himself.

[MatthewM]

Um...they did bow to him when he first approached them. That's when he says "My friends, you bow to no-one." And bows himself.

hahaha

[Elfchick7]

I liked that scene. I felt that the hobbits expressions were great b/c it was clear that they were very unused to that sort of attention. Also it demonstrated Aragorn's humility. Could there have been a better way to achieve the same end? Probably but I did not find this scene horribly out of place at all.

I did however notice that Merry and Pippin's height change was not noticeable AT ALL. Apparently, Hollywood entwash wear off. ;)

As for the bedroom scene...*sigh* It was really out of place. A good bit of the end of ROTK felt choppy and out of place. Not to mention that the bedroom scene felt remarkably like deja vu. (FOTR, Rivendell, similar scene)

[Isabellkya]

I liked that scene.. however it was extremely typical, and almost borderline cheesy. If I had seen the movies with no prior knowledge of the books, I still would've seen it coming.

[Liriodendron]

The way the scene was laid out in the book was extremely touching, I always have too blink back the tears....the movie totally bugged me. Merry and Pippen should not have been included with Sam and Frodo.

[Sauron the White]

Merry and Pippin did play crucial roles which directly led to the destruction of Orthanc and the elimination of Saruman as a power as well as the destruction of the Witchking. Those are two extremely large chess pieces that they helped take off the board. Their inclusion was warranted. Everyone played a part and each part was important.

[Elfchick7]

True, but there were many other that did just as much if not more. For example, Eowyn and Aragorn. So, why weren't they included?

[Sir Kohran]

True, but there were many other that did just as much if not more. For example, Eowyn and Aragorn. So, why weren't they included?

I agree on Eowyn...it does seem a bit strange that no-one seems to even mention her part in the victory on the Pelennor.

But Aragorn wasn't included...? Huh? He makes his speech, everyone cheers for him and then the other 'heroes' bow to him as he walks past them. Then the hobbits bow to him and he bows to them...to my eyes he was included.

[Sauron the White]

I guess the prize for Eowyn was the Gondorian hunkster Faramir. All the hobbits had to look forward to was a long journey home to nobody in particular. :D

[Elfchick7]

But Aragorn wasn't included...? Huh? He makes his speech, everyone cheers for him and then the other 'heroes' bow to him as he walks past them. Then the hobbits bow to him and he bows to them...to my eyes he was included.

Good point. I've never looked at it that way...

[Elfchick7]

All the hobbits had to look forward to was a long journey home to nobody in particular. :D

Except Sam who had some hope with a certain hobbit lass...hmm.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Just to add, I actually liked the scene. I thought it was moving and showed full development of friendship between the hobbits and Aragorn.
I agree totally MatthewM.:) It was very awsome.

[sallkid]

Gosh, Anguirel, that wasn't a very kind welcome. ;)

That part in the movie was fair enough. Although it didn't move me to tears, it did some of my friends (much to my astonishment). I thought it was sweet, but never to the point of tears. It was a good touch, seeing what the hobbits did. In reality, Merry and Pippin didn't necessarily deserve it, but Frodo and Sam did. It would have been better still if Pippin and Merry and bowed, I think. But then Frodo and Sam would have felt really awkward. . .

Yes, welcome to the 'Downs. Hope you have fun.

-- Folwren

But there is an equivalent scene in the book, Gwaihir sings a song called "praise to the halflings" or somesuch, this could be seen as a way of doing that scene whilst peter jackson avoids putting in any of the songs that are essential to middle earth's middle-ages setting :p

True, but there were many other that did just as much if not more. For example, Eowyn and Aragorn. So, why weren't they included?

I don't think that killing the captain of Mordor is quite as incredible an achievement as rousing the ents in open warfare (remember this is an event that had NEVER happened before in the history of middle earth)

[alatar]

Could it be that, to Big Folk, all of the four looked similar? Maybe, with the exception of those that stood side by side with the Hobbits (i.e. Aragorn), many in the crowd weren't really sure which did what. So out of ignorance and politeness (and Ent-draught Merry and Pippin appear more heroic anyway ;)), the crowd just bowed.

[smeagollives]

P.S. Yes, Anguirel, that bedroom scene felt squirmingly like... um... fanfic.

what is so bad about fanfic?

[Lady_Arwen]

[post deleted]

[Bulletproof777]

I just saw LOTR -Return of The King ..and sure enough I teared up again ...even thinking about it. I do not cry or get emotional at movies but this one part (king and subsequently people bowing down to the 4 hobbits) did it again.

[Sarumian]

That part in the movie was fair enough. Although it didn't move me to tears, it did some of my friends (much to my astonishment). I thought it was sweet, but never to the point of tears. It was a good touch, seeing what the hobbits did. In reality, Merry and Pippin didn't necessarily deserve it, but Frodo and Sam did.

Well, I think, summoning Ents into battle, saving Faramir, slaying a troll and Witch King should not be underestimated :)

[Lotrelf]

I liked that scene. But I won't say that it surpassed the book's. It was Touching and beautiful scene. Hobbits reactions were awesome. :) I also liked that look on Frodo's face. As if he was feeling "guilty" for succumbing to the Ring.

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

The bow was touching to me. It acknowledged that those four little hobbits had been through something that took the courage of kings, and showed the people of Minas Tirith that their new king would not let his station blind him to the deeds of those below him. As for the bedroom scene, I seem to be in the majority hating that, especially since it appears that Frodo forgot Legolas's name even though he remembered everyone else's.

[Inziladun]

The "You bow" line always seemed to me melodramatic, and unnecessary. Tolkien expressed the honour due to the Hobbits sublimely and adequately with the song at the Field of Cormallen, and Aragorn's simple bowing before Frodo and Sam before leading them to his makeshift throne. That's the trouble with so many movies. The makers assume one need to be beaten over the head with something before it's understood.

[Belegorn]

I don't care how Éowyn screamed, she looked pretty hot, and I'm not even sure if in the movies they showed her and Faramir hitting it off. I don't mind the Hobbits all getting their gratitude in the movie. They did all do important things in the story, with the Ents, the Ring, the Witch-king, Shelob, and saving Faramir's life.

[Lotrelf]

The "You bow" line always seemed to me melodramatic, and unnecessary. Tolkien expressed the honour due to the Hobbits sublimely and adequately with the song at the Field of Cormallen, and Aragorn's simple bowing before Frodo and Sam before leading them to his makeshift throne. That's the trouble with so many movies. The makers assume one need to be beaten over the head with something before it's understood.

I think that wasn't melodramatic at all. As someone previously said, Aragorn's bow meant that hobbits did something that took courage of kings and warriors. The bow meant the world owes a lot to these four hobbits. Without their selfless efforts the War of the Ring would have turned out differently. That is true for both, books and the movies.

[Inziladun]

I think that wasn't melodramatic at all. As someone previously said, Aragorn's bow meant that hobbits did something that took courage of kings and warriors. The bow meant the world owes a lot to these four hobbits. Without their selfless efforts the War of the Ring would have turned out differently. That is true for both, books and the movies.

It wasn't the gesture itself that was all that bad: it was the fact that dialogue was deemed necessary to hammer the point home. A simple, wordless bow would have been more effective.

[Lotrelf]

It wasn't the gesture itself that was all that bad: it was the fact that dialogue was deemed necessary to hammer the point home. A simple, wordless bow would have been more effective.

Would you please elaborate why you think a wordless bow would have been effective?
IIRC, in the movie, first Frodo and Sam bow to Aragorn, the King. Moments later Merry & Pip do the same. That moment none of the hobbits were looking at the rest. How, do you think, without a word, things would have been fine? How would the hobbits know what is happening? And wouldn't this look rather silly? This way, we find out how humble these Hobbits are; and Aragorn has such a great respect for them. Not only because they are also the reason the world is safe, but because he loves them and respects them very much. "My friends, you bow to no one." This is why this scene in the movie, becomes so poignant. :)

[Inziladun]

Would you please elaborate why you think a wordless bow would have been effective?
IIRC, in the movie, first Frodo and Sam bow to Aragorn, the King. Moments later Merry & Pip do the same. That moment none of the hobbits were looking at the rest. How, do you think, without a word, things would have been fine? How would the hobbits know what is happening? And wouldn't this look rather silly? This way, we find out how humble these Hobbits' are; and Aragorn has such a great respect for them. Not only because they are also the reason the world is safe, but because he loves them and respects them very much. "My friends, you bow to no one." This is why this scene in the movie, becomes so poignant. :)

I just think a bow, with a look into Frodo's eyes, would have been sufficient. In the book, all Aragorn did was to bow on one knee, take them to his throne, and say to all within hearing that they should be praised. That's quite enough.

[Lotrelf]

I just think a bow, with a look into Frodo's eyes, would have been sufficient. In the book, all Aragorn did was to bow on one knee, take them to his throne, and say to all within hearing that they should be praised. That's quite enough.

I think, I explained why all of it was important. There's nothing more to add. What you said is right, but PJ & co. were fine in that too.

[radagastly]

I have a general problem with most film dialogue in the first place. It adds some detail and exposition that would otherwise be absent, but it is rarely an improvement on the overall experience. That being said, much of Hollywood has become dependent on dialogue to fill creative gaps in their effort to tell a story through visual images alone. Not that there is no place for dialogue at all. If you're adapting Shakespeare, for example, it's very much about the beautiful language, and therefore it needs to be there. My objection is the substitution of dialogue for the more creative challenge of imparting the same feeling and information in silence. The best films are enjoyable and engaging even with the soundtrack turned off.
That being said, I don't think that "Praise them with great praise!" is any less hokey (or more hokey, for that matter) than "My friends, you bow to no one." But books are all about the words that they're made of, and film is about the moving visual image. A wordless bow, without the line, would have been more universally effective in a visual medium.

[Smaug's voice]

I like the scene in question too.
Probably one of the more touching scenes from the three films. Why I like it even more is because it is such a wonderful compression of the whole closure-of-Gondor arc in the book.
We see Elessar's crowning - and if I may say - Viggo suits the kingly Aragorn really well, even though I prefer his Strider.

We see the re-union of him and Arwen - and with the sweet choral playing in the back and the two looking at each other as if they haven't seen each other in ages - great touch. Even Elrond looks happy! :P Of course, I don't really think the kiss was necessary. Atleast not in the way it was done.

And finally, we see the hobbits getting their due recognition. I particularly like Viggo's delivery here of the concerned line. Which an average actor would have made it sound corny, as it is. I also like Frodo's expression. Visibly moved but also redundant, thinking that in the end he failed in his quest and did not deserve it.
I like the fact that Merry and Pippin were acknowledged as well. They after all did have one of the most significant impacts on the events - killing the Wiki, riding to Isengard, the Palantir (an accident, but still)

I would not have liked the inclusion of "Praise them with great praise!" song here, as while it reads great in the book, it would have been quite cheesy onscreen.


Also, I seem to be the only one, but I really like the bedroom-scene. Having them entering one-by-one is of course impractical but this is one of the cases where I can see what PJ means by "dramatic effect". I think the scene - a silent scene completely driven by music- was meant as a soothing balm, as a relaxation after the harrowing Cirith Ungol, and the torturing walk through Mordor along with the battles.

Besides Frodo's super-awkward laugh, I like everything about this scene - especially the Sam-Frodo look at the end with the Shire music.

[Inziladun]

I think one of my problems with that scene is that Viggo Mortensen is nothing near my idea of Aragorn. He doesn't impart sincerity with the words. Doubtless, many will disagree. No drama.

[Lotrelf]

I like the scene in question too.
Probably one of the more touching scenes from the three films. Why I like it even more is because it is such a wonderful compression of the whole closure-of-Gondor arc in the book.
We see Elessar's crowning - and if I may say - Viggo suits the kingly Aragorn really well, even though I prefer his Strider.

We see the re-union of him and Arwen - and with the sweet choral playing in the back and the two looking at each other as if they haven't seen each other in ages - great touch. Even Elrond looks happy! :P Of course, I don't really think the kiss was necessary. Atleast not in the way it was done.

And finally, we see the hobbits getting their due recognition. I particularly like Viggo's delivery here of the concerned line. Which an average actor would have made it sound corny, as it is. I also like Frodo's expression. Visibly moved but also redundant, thinking that in the end he failed in his quest and did not deserve it.
I like the fact that Merry and Pippin were acknowledged as well. They after all did have one of the most significant impacts on the events - killing the Wiki, riding to Isengard, the Palantir (an accident, but still)

I would not have liked the inclusion of "Praise them with great praise!" song here, as while it reads great in the book, it would have been quite cheesy onscreen.


Also, I seem to be the only one, but I really like the bedroom-scene. Having them entering one-by-one is of course impractical but this is one of the cases where I can see what PJ means by "dramatic effect". I think the scene - a silent scene completely driven by music- was meant as a soothing balm, as a relaxation after the harrowing Cirith Ungol, and the torturing walk through Mordor along with the battles.

Besides Frodo's super-awkward laugh, I like everything about this scene - especially the Sam-Frodo look at the end with the Shire music.

Oh my God! I agree fully. Frodo's expressions? Yes, wonderful and powerful. The thing that we get from Tolkien's letters, PJ, thankfully, showed in the movie. Viggo as Aragorn? Obviously. He was perfect as Aragorn. I agree with the kiss thingy as well. I find that rather awkward, yes, the way it was done. In India, such aren't 'allowed'(but today movie-makers do that anyway. But I always find them weird and AVOIDE them). Bedroom scene? Yup! Liked that too. Frodo-Sam interaction was perfect. Sam comes with a look of "Mr. Frodo got his friends. Does he need me anymore?" And Frodo gives a smile, shows their friendship's strength. Sam's behaviour also reminds me of Tolkien's letter where he said that Sam loved Frodo but did not understand him much. The scene in the movie reflects that perfectly. :D

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Radagastly, you make a good point. And I would add, if I may, that one of the reasons to read Tolkien, as well, is the language- whereas PBJ's dialogue is flat, generic, uninspired, sometimes downright clunky. Notice how much better the movies suddenly get when we are given a section of Genuine Tolkien Text(tm), such as the conversation between Eowyn and Wormtongue (even if swiped from Gandalf)?

[Morthoron]

I think one of my problems with that scene is that Viggo Mortensen is nothing near my idea of Aragorn. He doesn't impart sincerity with the words. Doubtless, many will disagree. No drama.

It was really funny when the Hobbits kept referring to Viggo as "Strider". All 5'10" of him. Far too cute with the Hollywood scruffly beard, and with a voice too reedy and thin. I don't think Aragorn should have had a beard, canonically speaking, and I would have preferred a casting along the lines of T.H. White's Lancelot: not at all good-looking in a conventional manner, but hard and weatherbeaten (a Ranger spends most of his time in the elements, after all, and not in a salon).

One of several miscasts, particularly Theoden and Denethor, both of whom did not appear as Tolkien described.

[Inziladun]

I don't think Aragorn should have had a beard, canonically speaking, and I would have preferred a casting along the lines of T.H. White's Lancelot: not at all good-looking in a conventional manner, but hard and weatherbeaten (a Ranger spends most of his time in the elements, after all, and not in a salon).

The beard bothered me too. I actually prefer the John Hurt-voiced version in Bakshi's (http://cdn3.whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/aragon-lotr-animated.jpg) film, though he looks rather Amerindian to me there.

One of several miscasts, particularly Theoden and Denethor, both of whom did not appear as Tolkien described.

Agreed on both. The "healed" Théoden doesn't look old enough, and Denethor reminds me of Rowling's Argus Filch. Ah! So that's Denethor's problem: he's a Squib! :D

[alatar]

This RotK scene was one of the few in PJ's trilogy that was emotive. Another was Boromir's death.

Sadly there wasn't much between them.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't think Aragorn should have had a beard, canonically speaking

While arguing from First Principles would mandate that no descendant of Elros would have a beard, Tolkien either had a more complex view of the matter or simply goofed, since the statue of the old King at the cross-roads above Osgiliath is bearded.

[Morthoron]

While arguing from First Principles would mandate that no descendant of Elros would have a beard, Tolkien either had a more complex view of the matter or simply goofed, since the statue of the old King at the cross-roads above Osgiliath is bearded.

Yes, I do realize that; however, I never felt while reading the trilogy that Aragorn had a beard, particularly the metrosexual one from the movies.:D

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, while I realize that the dog that didn't bark is always a dangerous line to take, Holmes notwithstanding, it might be postulated that Tolkien was of a generation whose men simply did not wear beards (ancient Victorians like Joe Wright might sport grey ones); it was something so unusual that, like long hair, it would have been remarked upon. Tolkien makes a point of telling us that Boromir's hair was "shorn about his shoulders," but mentions no facial hair; Wizards, Theoden, Beorn and all Dwarves (and Cirdan!) are expressly bearded, but elsewhere he is silent and, just maybe, we can "read" that silence.

Certainly in Tolkien's real world even those few men who had beards had genuine beards, not a week's stubble! (Query- how did Aragorn out in the wild for months on end maintain that 7 days' growth look?)

But "canonically speaking" I fear we're on no firmer ground than we are with Legolas' hair color.

[Inziladun]

Tolkien makes a point of telling us that Boromir's hair was "shorn about his shoulders," but mentions no facial hair; Wizards, Theoden, Beorn and all Dwarves (and Cirdan!) are expressly bearded, but elsewhere he is silent and, just maybe, we can "read" that silence.

In the LOTR Prologue, it is noted that among the distinctions of the Hobbits in the Eastfarthing was that

...they were well known to be Stoors in a large part of their blood, as indeed was shown by the down that many grew on their chins. No Harfoot or Fallohide had any trace of a beard.

The Stoors being the most "mannish" of the Hobbits, would that presuppose a general beardedness of Men, at least those of non-Númenórean descent?

(Query- how did Aragorn out in the wild for months on end maintain that 7 days' growth look?)

You only think that was hair. Strider just didn't wash up very much. ;)